--- Log opened Thu May 15 00:00:05 2014 00:05 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:56 -!- pads [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:56 -!- pads is now known as Guest94310 00:57 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@193.84.36.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:58 -!- pad2 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:09 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-79-151.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:10 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:14 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:50 -!- voodster [juniper@shell.bshellz.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:35 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:32 -!- kardan [~kardan@nat-114.westnetz.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:38 -!- kardan [~kardan@nat-114.westnetz.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:41 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:06 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:25 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:06 -!- kardan [~kardan@nat-114.westnetz.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:10 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10 -!- kardan [~kardan@nat-114.westnetz.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvuvjosdzbyjttfn] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 05:20 < abetusk> I don't know a lot about the subject, but does anyone know about Gene Network Sciences "Diagrammatic Cell Language"? Does anyone know of any open/unencumbered alternatives? 05:28 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:36 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:46 -!- voodster [juniper@shell.bshellz.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:15 <@kanzure> i thought brain electrodes were a great idea 06:16 <@kanzure> then your time-until-reward is constrained mostly by your ability to recognize desired behavior, pressing a button, and speed of light constraints 06:17 <@kanzure> as opposed to the time it takes for you to reinforce with food 06:23 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.171.210] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:27 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure 06:40 -!- kardan [~kardan@kite.riseup.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:44 < kanzure> "Autodesk expects to license the software inside its printer at no cost and will also let people copy the printer’s hardware design. Autodesk has not yet determined which of several standard open-source licenses it will use, if any" 06:44 < kanzure> ugh well then don't call it open source if you're not using an open source license 06:44 < kanzure> way to alienate your users 06:49 < kanzure> biotinkering-berlin@googlegroups.com 06:54 -!- kardan [~kardan@kite.riseup.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@111-213-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:09 -!- kardan [~kardan@2001:470:75b7:1048:21a:4bff:fe61:2a6a] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:17 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.171.210] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:18 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:23 < kanzure> "Well.. they should get their facts straight, OLGA Biohackerspace in Austria is a certified S1 GMO lab since 2013. The scene isn't that big." 07:23 < kanzure> via 07:24 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:27 < kanzure> "Two-dimensional atomic lithography by sub-micron focusing of atomic beams" http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0506022.pdf 07:29 -!- kardan [~kardan@2001:470:75b7:1048:21a:4bff:fe61:2a6a] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:41 -!- kardan [~kardan@2001:470:75b7:1048:21a:4bff:fe61:2a6a] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:41 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@197.237.104.65] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:43 -!- poppingtonic is now known as Guest81733 07:44 < cluckj> is SL1 the same in austria as it is in the US? 07:44 < kanzure> i dunno if they meant SL1 07:45 -!- Guest81733 [~poppingto@197.237.104.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45 < cluckj> probably? 07:57 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@25.1.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:02 < cluckj> oh, since december 2013 08:02 -!- heath [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:03 -!- heath [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:09 -!- entelechy [~elysium@181.194.131.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:11 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@111-213-15.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:16 < sheena> can i ask pidgin not to show me the "entered" "left" notifications? 08:19 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@25.1.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:20 < kanzure> i think that's under preferences 08:26 < sheena> i dont see it anywhere 08:30 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:37 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@25.1.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:39 < kanzure> sheena: it's the join/part plugin in the plugins list 08:40 < sheena> ty 08:40 < sheena> awesome. thanks 08:58 < cluckj> kanzure, where was that message posted? 08:59 < kanzure> one of the diybio-except-we-hate-kanzure-and-we-are-trying-to-get-away-from-him mailing lists 09:00 < cluckj> a secret list? 09:00 < kanzure> their secret list has a secret list of its own 09:00 < kanzure> it's just dumb 09:00 < cluckj> that's very interesting 09:00 < kanzure> diybio-eu 09:00 < kanzure> yeah, basically they didn't listen to me 09:00 < kanzure> i told them that having lots of regional mailing lists will just fracture the community 09:01 < kanzure> and now we have 400 different region-specific groups that never talk with each other 09:02 < dingo> definitely aagree 09:02 < dingo> i haate exclusivity 09:02 < cluckj> oooo blocked webpage 09:03 < dingo> if you don't like somebody, just aask them to leave 09:06 < cluckj> or broken web server 09:08 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@25.1.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:10 < cluckj> it's one thing to have a region-specific mailing list, but not making it publicly available, tsk tsk 09:13 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:16 < kanzure> hah 09:26 < cluckj> how am I supposed to keep up with what people are doing? like.....actually talk to them??? ughhhh 09:27 < kanzure> i know, right? 09:28 < cluckj> there was a person who was doing hackerspace/biohackerspace work by mining mailing list data and watching livestreams of hackathons 09:30 < cluckj> they concluded that nothing was getting done because there wasn't any discussion of successes or completed projects on the mailing lists, only questions about how to fix things or problems with building stuff 09:31 < kanzure> yes, the hackerspace mailing lists have not been particularly helpful 09:32 < cluckj> no kidding 09:33 < cluckj> I didn't want to start a personal conflict with the researcher, so one of my friends questioned their data gathering and analysis after the presentation 09:34 < cluckj> and directly compared my work to theirs, because I came to literally the exact opposite conclusion 09:35 < kanzure> to be fair, i think that in most hackerspaces, not much is really accomplished 09:36 < cluckj> I've only been to a couple, but there seemed to be actual stuff happening 09:36 < kanzure> like what 09:37 < cluckj> cool or interesting things being built, communities being formed 09:37 < kanzure> that is not a good answer 09:38 < cluckj> hah 09:38 < cluckj> one was nyc resistor though 09:38 < kanzure> i am also skeptical of "any time people get together, it's net good because communities!" because i'm absolutely certain that a group of people can get together in a workshop and do absolutely nothing productive 09:39 < cluckj> that's sometimes true 09:40 < cluckj> you're underestimating the power of people getting together...they might not be doing things inside the space that you can see 09:40 < kanzure> i'm not a micromanager 09:40 < kanzure> i don't need to see hammers flying 09:40 < chris_99> or do something worse than being un-productive 09:41 < cluckj> haha 09:41 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:42 < cluckj> they could be counterproductive or something 09:42 < kanzure> or counterculture 09:43 -!- heath [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:43 < kanzure> or counter protoculture http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IIiwunMZZmw/SCai3aiKZ9I/AAAAAAAAAlM/WDeLQdnurKo/s1600-h/Macross+since+1983_front.jpg 09:44 < cluckj> the CCL dudes are nice :P 09:45 < delinquentme> JA <3 the CCl kids 09:45 < delinquentme> also 09:45 < delinquentme> paperbot http://link.springer.com/protocol/10.1385%2F1-59259-258-9%3A119 09:45 < delinquentme> BRING 09:49 < cluckj> rejected. 09:56 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:56 < kanzure> .title http://clearcrypt.org/tls/ 09:56 < yoleaux> Nuke TLS From Orbit 09:58 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:07 < kanzure> http://passportsforbitcoin.com/ 10:10 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:11 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:24 -!- not_unoriginal [~helpcompu@172.56.40.141] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:25 -!- not_un [~helpcompu@172.56.31.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:37 < kanzure> "As user ufmace (and artificialidiot) points out, this is NOT nearly as big of a revolution as the media is making it out to be. You CAN buy CNC mills or lathes to build higher quality weapons with little or no licensure, for generally the same or less $$ than a 3D printer. You could also buy much of what is necessary to build a Liberator-style weapon in a Home Depot. You could also buy a czech-stamped 9x18 makarov pistol for under $150, and ... 10:37 < kanzure> ... put hundreds or thousands of rounds through it, all without talking to an FFL holder." 10:37 < kanzure> "This was a perfect storm of tech interest and general wonderment in 3D printing meeting zealotry applied towards gun laws, from both directions. People from Defense Distributed are well aware of this; nonsense or not, it made a great launch pad and buzz mill. Mr. Wilson has already signed his book deal and on to his Dark Wallet project." 10:37 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@37-48-38-94.tmcz.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:37 < kanzure> "Me personally, I've always thought that building some STL files of the solvent trap adapter[0] or adapter used in the Econo-Can suppressor[1] would be more meaningful parts to distribute via 3D printers (If you're all into the freedom-of-weapons via technology bandwagon, which I'm not). Suppressors are a very real tactical advantage, and small threaded adapters are much more likely to stand up to the stresses of weapons use." 10:39 < kanzure> 10:20 <+nathaniel> EnLilaSko: why is kanzure such a cock 10:39 < kanzure> gee let's guess 10:40 < kanzure> it's not a mystery 10:40 < catern> hmm? is there actually a reason? 10:41 < kanzure> YES 10:42 < catern> what is it 10:43 < kanzure> this channel gets overrun with trash if i don't take out the garbage 10:43 < kanzure> this is not a transhumanism cheerleading circus 10:44 < kanzure> the purpose of hplusroadmap was to build things 10:44 < sheena> give me a T 10:44 < sheena> give me a R 10:44 < kanzure> that's going to be a very long cheer 10:44 * sheena calls elephant to stand on pedastal 10:44 < sheena> pedestal? 10:45 <@ParahSailin> stool 10:45 < kanzure> no, she means the chair, not poop 10:45 < sheena> heh yeah. elephants on stools. 10:46 < kanzure> catern: also, in general, people think that if you disagree with them strongly that you must be an asshole/evil/a monster 10:46 < cluckj> ^-- 10:48 < catern> oh, ok 10:50 < cluckj> telling people to piss off also makes them think you're a jerk :P 10:50 < kanzure> it's entirely possible that i am a jerk 10:50 < kanzure> but what does that matter; i don't seem them doing the job better 10:53 < cluckj> eh 10:54 < cluckj> it's also about how another person takes your demeanor 10:55 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:56 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:56 < cluckj> and if you were a real deep-down jackass I'd probably not want to talk to you at all 10:57 < sheena> kanzure: you're aware that your social interactions are not always taken as you intend them 10:58 -!- kardan [~kardan@2001:470:75b7:1048:21a:4bff:fe61:2a6a] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:59 < cluckj> nobody's are 11:01 < kanzure> cluckj: deep down inside, we're all just as creepy and chocolatey as you :) 11:02 < kanzure> actually, chocolate isn't that much of a problem i think 11:02 -!- kardan [~kardan@2001:470:75b7:1048:21a:4bff:fe61:2a6a] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:02 < kanzure> "frosted sugar blasted" 11:14 -!- heath [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:29 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@67-80-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:29 < sheena> http://www.buzzfeed.com/kmallikarjuna/how-to-science-as-told-by-17-overly-honest-scientists 11:44 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.171.210] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:45 < eudoxia> the one about the centrifuge noises speaks to me on a very personal level 11:46 < kanzure> does it haunt you 11:46 < eudoxia> no 11:46 < eudoxia> when i was a kid and i had to poop while the washing machine was running i got scared because it made scary noises 11:47 < eudoxia> (because the washing machine was in the bathroom and it shook a bunch) 11:47 < kanzure> did you consider turning it off 11:48 < eudoxia> i was a little kid, i didn't know how to operate one. also i would have had to turn it back on again and ugghhhh 11:51 < kanzure> someone posted videos of me as a little kid on facebook, if you want to stalk my former self 11:51 < kanzure> i only know this because i finally checked facebook today :| 11:54 < eudoxia> hm i don't think i have you on fb 11:54 < eudoxia> are the videos some kind of waldorf school security camera experiment thing 11:56 < kanzure> no 11:56 < kanzure> just showing off my talents as a street artist back in '96 11:59 -!- kardan [~kardan@2001:470:75b7:1048:21a:4bff:fe61:2a6a] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.171.210] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:06 -!- qba [~qba@cracksucht.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:07 < FourFire> kanzure, #12 is funny 12:07 < FourFire> I've heard that a lot of the officially used psychology research is based solely on students in a small geographic area 12:10 < not_unoriginal> there's some pithy acronym for it 12:15 -!- kardan [~kardan@kite.riseup.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:15 -!- BANKOSHERFOOD is now known as BANHALAL 12:18 -!- kardan [~kardan@kite.riseup.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31 -!- Zhwazi [~Zhwazi@copyfree/contributor/Zhwazi] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 12:35 -!- kardan [~kardan@199.254.238.161] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:46 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01 -!- kardan [~kardan@199.254.238.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 309 seconds] 13:06 < cluckj> kanzure mmm creepy chocolate 13:12 -!- kardan [~kardan@2001:470:75b7:1048:21a:4bff:fe61:2a6a] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:13 < cluckj> processed on the same equipment as tree nuts 13:17 -!- mabblebrox [Lee@cpe-24-26-139-8.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:17 < mabblebrox> are we still taking steroids to type? :-P 13:17 < mabblebrox> there's like, addderall, you know 13:18 < not_unoriginal> that sounds great 13:20 < mabblebrox> what's the bias, i don't get it 13:20 < mabblebrox> transcend human limitations, great, but there are limits 13:21 < not_unoriginal> http://oz-mix.blogspot.com/2011/08/beliefs-unlimited.html?m=1 13:22 < mabblebrox> hmm that's a bit more rational 13:23 < mabblebrox> one user, on here, was tripping me out 13:23 < not_unoriginal> lilly took so much ketamine he had to wear a diaper 13:23 < mabblebrox> lol that stuff is boring 13:23 < mabblebrox> I did some bumps 13:23 < mabblebrox> well, idk, the dude's like, everything's for a reason 13:24 < not_unoriginal> I've never done it 13:24 < mabblebrox> and I end up at a bar and some chick's in a vulnerable state 13:24 < mabblebrox> without the ketamine, I would have gone for it 13:24 < mabblebrox> so maybe he was right? dunno 13:24 < mabblebrox> dissociatives have very little to offer 13:24 < mabblebrox> but, my life is weird 13:26 < delinquentme> ^^^^^ 13:26 < delinquentme> +1 mabblebrox 13:26 < mabblebrox> +1 for doing ketamine? 13:26 < mabblebrox> this is a strange room 13:27 < mabblebrox> hmm 13:27 < mabblebrox> ok maybe steroids for like 1-3 months, tops 13:27 < mabblebrox> with lots of weed to even out 13:27 < mabblebrox> then cycle stimulants? 13:27 < mabblebrox> cause I have to get in top shape like, real fast 13:27 < not_unoriginal> tren and clen 13:28 < mabblebrox> ? 13:28 < not_unoriginal> ... 13:28 < mabblebrox> me nub 13:28 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@67-80-15.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:28 < not_unoriginal> seriously, you're planning on steroids but do not know trenbolone and clenbutrol? 13:28 < mabblebrox> i'm ill informed, what are these? 13:28 < mabblebrox> i'm not 'planning' anything 13:28 < mabblebrox> just researching 13:29 < not_unoriginal> well, in my vast studies of steroid use, most recommend a "beginner's cycle" of solely testosterone 13:30 < mabblebrox> being, trenbolone and clenbutrol? 13:30 < mabblebrox> hold on, i'll google 13:32 -!- mabblebrox [Lee@cpe-24-26-139-8.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:33 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@37-48-38-94.tmcz.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:39 <@ParahSailin> these are what you use in the "cut" phase of the cycle 13:40 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:40 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@113-234-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:50 -!- mabblebrox [~mabblebro@cpe-24-26-139-8.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:52 < mabblebrox> . 13:52 < mabblebrox> ok 13:52 < mabblebrox> damn NSA they crashed my Windows 13:55 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@37-48-35-24.tmcz.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:55 < mabblebrox> hi, anyone home? 13:55 -!- kardan [~kardan@2001:470:75b7:1048:21a:4bff:fe61:2a6a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56 < kanzure> what do you want to know 13:56 < mabblebrox> dude, you use steroids for typing 13:56 < mabblebrox> i'm not sure what I can learn from you 13:57 < FourFire> mabblebrox, hello, that's encouraging ;P 13:57 < kanzure> then why are you asking if i'm at home? 13:57 < mabblebrox> i was pinging 13:57 < mabblebrox> to start a conversation 13:57 < not_unoriginal> is kanzure using androgenics? 13:57 < mabblebrox> who knows 13:57 < FourFire> mabblebrox, what brings you to this channel? 13:57 < mabblebrox> i'm like, adderall is much better than steroids, for typing 13:57 < mabblebrox> um 13:57 < mabblebrox> I need to get into top shape, real fast 13:58 < FourFire> do you do floor exercises? 13:58 < mabblebrox> I don't exercise, right now 13:58 < mabblebrox> I want to become a bicycle messenger 13:58 < FourFire> Pushups, Situps, & etc. 13:58 < mabblebrox> right 13:58 < not_unoriginal> do stronglifts 5x5 13:58 < mabblebrox> well i'm a tub of lard 13:59 < mabblebrox> and I want to be bruce lee 13:59 < mabblebrox> so, need to break some rules, obviously 13:59 < FourFire> so you'll want to train your aerobolic endurance as well as general fitness 13:59 < not_unoriginal> okay... why not set a SMART goal 13:59 < mabblebrox> aerobolic? 13:59 < mabblebrox> vs anabolic? 13:59 < FourFire> yep 13:59 < mabblebrox> aerobolic is muscle mass, anabolic endurance right? 13:59 < FourFire> ok, for fat: what can you do about your diet? 13:59 < mabblebrox> er, oxygen/no oxygen? 13:59 < mabblebrox> uh 13:59 < mabblebrox> cocaine? 14:00 < FourFire> Are you eating healthily, and if not, can you fix it? 14:00 < mabblebrox> i'm eating, reasonbly healthily, a little bit of stress carbs 14:00 < mabblebrox> if I improve my life situation, cut carbs and increase protein 14:01 < mabblebrox> but, really I'd like to be a bicycle messenger, and bump a few lines, and hope to God I keep it under control 14:01 < FourFire> if you are a "tub of lard" there's obvious reasons for it, noone magically gets unhealthily overweight "because I have a slow metabolism" it's because of years of accumulative fat build up due to lifestyle 14:01 < mabblebrox> yes, I have a fast metabolism, in a shitty life circumstance 14:01 < mabblebrox> well tub of lard is like 30 pounds overweight, no biggy 14:01 < mabblebrox> brb 14:01 < FourFire> mabblebrox, you benefit most from a short period of *Hard* exercise 14:01 < mabblebrox> hum 14:02 < FourFire> do pushups, situps, for 2-10 minutes several times daily 14:02 < jrayhawk> there is no such thing as overweight 14:02 < jrayhawk> well, there is, but it is dumb 14:03 < FourFire> jrayhawk, of course, but there is such a thing as an unhealthy fat-muscle ratio 14:03 < FourFire> if your chest cavity has lots of fat in it your organs can get crowded out and that's bad 14:04 < mabblebrox> no i'm not super fat 14:04 < mabblebrox> just pudge 14:04 < mabblebrox> but (and please don't kick me) 14:04 < FourFire> mabblebrox, you exercise hard and fast, and you do it often, make it a goal to do it a certain amount of times, do it before a meal 14:05 < mabblebrox> my thought was, heavy lifting with a bit of cocaine, THC and nitrates to vasodilate 14:05 < mabblebrox> hm 14:05 < FourFire> yeah well I don't use stimulants, ask someone else about that 14:05 < mabblebrox> or steroids, but i don't want to shrink my balls 14:05 < mabblebrox> and I kind of like my liver 14:06 < jrayhawk> uh, fat/muscle ratios are dominated by peripheral adipose tissue, "chest cavity" ectopic fat is miniscule and abysmally scary. 14:06 < jrayhawk> You should really decide which one you want to talk about. 14:06 < mabblebrox> fat is easy to dissolve 14:06 < mabblebrox> like, MDMA at a rave, ankle/waist/wrist weights 14:06 < mabblebrox> boom fast twitch 14:06 < not_unoriginal> DO A KETOGENIC DIET BLEH BLAH 14:07 < mabblebrox> ketogenic? 14:07 < kanzure> i hate all of you 14:07 < mabblebrox> I dont hate you 14:07 < mabblebrox> I just think you should rethink your steroid use 14:08 < mabblebrox> me.google 14:08 < jrayhawk> steroid? 14:08 < mabblebrox> no comment, i don't want to incriminate 14:08 < kanzure> he thinks adderall is a steroid or something 14:08 < kanzure> i don't know why i get stuck with these people 14:08 < jrayhawk> Haha, awesome 14:08 < mabblebrox> oh duh, low carb 14:09 < mabblebrox> that's obvious 14:09 < mabblebrox> unless you're a marathonist 14:09 < mabblebrox> but like, I want to get FAST 14:09 < mabblebrox> and STRONG 14:09 < mabblebrox> real qucik 14:09 < mabblebrox> quick 14:09 < mabblebrox> so my thought was, raves with weights 14:10 < mabblebrox> ketogenic helps with epilepsy, huh 14:10 < jrayhawk> There are three metabolic tiers of time/strength capacities, and you don't particularly seem to understand them. 14:11 < mabblebrox> you're right, i've done little research on this 14:11 < mabblebrox> please elucidate, or give a link 14:12 -!- strages__ [sid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xxzsudjjrejtklph] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13 -!- entelechy [~elysium@181.194.131.115] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:13 < mabblebrox> ha, entelechos, nice 14:13 < kanzure> he's muted 14:14 < kanzure> how do you know him? 14:14 < mabblebrox> I don't 14:14 < mabblebrox> I know the term, entelechy, which is a fully actualized individual, from the Aristotle 14:15 < cpopell> mabblebrox: if you want to get strong, fast, then follow a weightlifting plan 14:15 < mabblebrox> but I need boosters 14:15 < mabblebrox> like from 0 to bruce lee in 60 seconds 14:15 < cpopell> and I want NZT from limitless 14:15 < cpopell> saying you want something doesn't make it real 14:15 < mabblebrox> it's only a virtuality 14:16 < jrayhawk> So, if you want to optimize for max effort (e.g. 100% for ten seconds or less), you need to train for neurological activation and muscle mass and density. If you want to optimize for longer term metabolic activity (80% max effort for tens of minutes), you want to train for glucose delivery and utilization including cardiology, and if you want endurance effort (say, 30-60 max effort for essentially infinite amounts of time) you need ... 14:16 < jrayhawk> ... to train fat metabolism, usually through carb-fasted training. 14:16 < cpopell> 'it's only a virtuality' what? 14:16 < mabblebrox> my ideal, is a virtuality, in my mind, and I am researching the possible avenues by which it may be attained, rapidly 14:16 < jrayhawk> These modalities typically can't be trained at the same time. 14:17 < mabblebrox> (withot shrinking my balls) 14:17 < cpopell> Well, first of all 14:17 < jrayhawk> Gains in one are usually pretty good for others, though. 14:17 < cpopell> while you can do steroids comparatively safely 14:17 < mabblebrox> how so? 14:17 < cpopell> I wouldn't trust you do to the research with what you're showing here 14:17 < mabblebrox> well, i'm drunk on ritalin, so i'm not entirely rational right now 14:17 < cpopell> very, very carefully is how. 14:17 < mabblebrox> hm 14:17 < mabblebrox> in what way? 14:17 < jrayhawk> is ritalin also a steroid in your mind 14:18 < mabblebrox> no, it's just entertainment 14:18 < cpopell> Shrug, I've only come across it, I haven't really gone into the details 14:18 < cpopell> I'm happy being natty 14:18 < mabblebrox> but, with alcohol you get methylphenidate 14:18 < sheena> everone but mabblebrox understands that you cant just make up drug classes, and that stims aren't steroids.. right? 14:18 < mabblebrox> as with cocaine, you get cocaethylene 14:18 < cpopell> sheena: yes 14:18 < mabblebrox> right, because stims drain 14:18 < cpopell> mabblebrox: Second, if you want gains, commit yourself to it 14:18 < mabblebrox> mhm 14:18 <@fenn> "with alcohol you get methylphenidate" what does that even mean 14:19 < cpopell> mabblebrox: Explosive power means olympic lifting 14:19 < jrayhawk> it means he really likes drinking rubbing alcohol. 14:19 < cpopell> I also might recommend martial arts/gymnastics/parkour 14:19 < mabblebrox> methylphenidate (ritalin) will combine with ethanol in the liver to form methylphenidate, which slightly more potently blocks reuptake of dopamine 14:19 < mabblebrox> no i've tried that, isopropyl does shit 14:19 <@fenn> x combines with y to form x? 14:20 < mabblebrox> and then converts in the liver to pure acetone 14:20 < mabblebrox> so, no. 14:20 < mabblebrox> bleh 14:20 < jrayhawk> hey, that means you're already ketogenic! 14:20 < mabblebrox> all i'm trying to surmise, is how I can be bruce lee within a 2 year timeframe 14:20 < jrayhawk> via terrifying and horrible pathways 14:20 < mabblebrox> if you're just getting pissed of by me i'll leave. 14:20 <@fenn> bruce lee is dead 14:20 < kanzure> don't focus too much on bruce lee, he's dead 14:20 < jrayhawk> haha 14:20 < kanzure> get off my damn wavelength 14:20 < cpopell> a) you can't, b) he was a genetic freak, c) he was incredibly focused and studied hard too, d) train hard, that's it. 14:21 < sheena> i suspect time spent exercising would be a good first step 14:21 <@fenn> define quantitative goals, come up with a plan to meet those goals 14:21 < mabblebrox> only because some dude shot him in the head with a blank 14:21 < cpopell> Bruce Lee didn't become Bruce Lee within 2 years. 14:21 < mabblebrox> well no 14:21 <@fenn> my point is, you can't "be" bruce lee because bruce lee doesn't exist 14:21 < mabblebrox> but did he try LSD? MDMA? controlled use of cocaine? cautious use of steroids? 14:21 < kanzure> and he's a terrible role model, dying and all, what a jerk 14:21 < mabblebrox> I'm not trying to 'be' bruce lee, that would be impossible 14:22 < mabblebrox> I'm trying to attain to that level of awesome 14:22 < jrayhawk> the general belief is that he died due to drug experimentation 14:22 <@fenn> define awesome. 14:22 < mabblebrox> I thought it was a blank too close to the head 14:22 < jrayhawk> that was his son 14:22 < cpopell> fenn: I'll agree about the awesome 14:22 < jrayhawk> and it wasn't quite blank 14:22 < mabblebrox> huh? 14:22 < mabblebrox> oh is that the conspiracy theory? 14:22 < jrayhawk> no 14:22 < mabblebrox> they loaded with a real bullet? 14:22 < kanzure> bruce lee died because of tylenol or something 14:22 < mabblebrox> dude wtf 14:22 < cpopell> kanzure: muscle relaxant 14:22 < mabblebrox> you have to take like 6 grams of tylenol to die 14:22 < kanzure> aw damn 14:23 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Lee 14:23 < cpopell> kanzure: Equagesic 14:23 < mabblebrox> believe me, i've contemplated it 14:23 < jrayhawk> specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Lee#Death 14:23 < mabblebrox> but decided that acetaminophen was a really shitty way to suicide 14:23 < cpopell> mabblebrox: You weightlift and train in martial arts, hard. 14:23 < cpopell> that's it 14:23 < cpopell> that's the only way to become like him. 14:23 < mabblebrox> ok, so how did Bruce Lee die? 14:23 < mabblebrox> was it cocaine and weightlifting? 14:24 < mabblebrox> cause if i'm just gonna tear a tendon in half i'l just go steroids for a month or two 14:24 < cpopell> like I said above, interaction between painkillers and a headache medicine 14:24 < mabblebrox> wut? that's lame 14:24 < cpopell> he had a bad drug interaction 14:24 < mabblebrox> like vicodin? 14:24 < mabblebrox> what a shitty way to die 14:24 < cpopell> Equagesic 14:24 < jrayhawk> and probably more illicit drugs. Lee was all about doing anything it took to be the greatest martial artist ever to live. 14:25 < cpopell> jrayhawk: long term, tho 14:25 < mabblebrox> well yeah, what i'd heard is he had a heart attack bench-pressing 14:25 <@fenn> "Lee died from an allergic reaction to the muscle relaxant (meprobamate) in Equagesic, which he described as a common ingredient in painkillers." 14:25 < cpopell> mabblebrox: ...but he didn't have a heart attack 14:25 <@fenn> it was ruled a "death by misadventure" 14:25 <@fenn> .d misadventure 14:25 < yoleaux> misadventure (/mɪsədˈvɛntʃə/): n. 1. Death caused by a person accidentally while performing a legal act without negligence or intent to harm: the coroner recorded a verdict of death by ⁓ — http://is.gd/V3a4yH 14:25 -!- strages__ [sid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wyvfsqnlmdoykvkm] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:25 < mabblebrox> oh 14:26 < mabblebrox> that is so. lame. 14:26 < cpopell> Shit happens. 14:26 < mabblebrox> I want to die epically 14:26 < cpopell> Point is. 14:26 <@fenn> hence why i don't care about jeet kun do 14:26 < cpopell> Lift weights, work your body, eat well, sleep well, study. 14:26 < mabblebrox> well, jeet kun do is a valuable contribution to the martial arts 14:26 < mabblebrox> right 14:26 < kanzure> cpopell: you should add "build shit" 14:26 < cpopell> Eh, I've heard JKD is a decent MMA style 14:26 < mabblebrox> my question is simply, with a bit of cocaine will I tear a tendon 14:26 < cpopell> kanzure: his body will at least probably fix itself 14:27 <@fenn> ok but what is the point of learning martial arts if you're just going to die essentially randomly 14:27 < cpopell> mabblebrox: cocaine is not regularly used as a weightlifting focus enhancer. 14:27 < cpopell> fenn: JKD didn't lead to his death though O_o 14:27 < mabblebrox> well, no, because it vasodconstricts 14:27 <@fenn> what is the all-cause contribution to mortality of martial arts training (positive or negative) 14:27 < mabblebrox> BUT if you counteract with THC, nitrates, maybe even prescription vasodilator 14:27 < jrayhawk> is "cocaine" also a steroid in your mind 14:27 < cpopell> mabblebrox: WHY would you bother using cocaine 14:27 < cpopell> in the gym 14:27 < mabblebrox> to increase performance 14:27 < mabblebrox> this is the reason I am asking 14:27 < cpopell> Why do you assume it would increase performance 14:28 < jrayhawk> you don't get stronger by increasing performance, you increase performance by getting stronger 14:28 < mabblebrox> uh because it's a stimulant 14:28 < jrayhawk> you are engaging in crazy cargo cultism 14:28 < mabblebrox> no i'm just looking for shortcuts 14:28 <@fenn> cocaine has terrible pharmacokinetics; why not use a well tested and "safe" bodybuilding stack like ECA? 14:28 < jrayhawk> so were cargo cultists 14:28 < cpopell> or even ECY 14:28 < mabblebrox> ephedrine? 14:28 < cpopell> I like how you're not interested in steroids but cocaine is totally cool 14:28 < mabblebrox> i don't know ECA/ECY 14:28 < cpopell> look it up. 14:28 < mabblebrox> well cocaine doesn't shrink your balls 14:28 < mabblebrox> will do 14:29 < mabblebrox> oh ephedrine caffeine aspirin 14:29 < mabblebrox> mrr 14:29 < mabblebrox> isn't ephedrine a vasoconstrictor? 14:29 < jrayhawk> does it matter 14:29 <@fenn> caffeine is a vasoconstrictor 14:29 < cpopell> mabblebrox: cocaine just fucks up your brain, but I guess that doesn't matter to you 14:29 < mabblebrox> um 14:29 < mabblebrox> depends how you use it 14:30 < mabblebrox> the trick, is to run in terror when you've gone too far 14:30 < mabblebrox> and get stoned and sleep 14:30 <@fenn> ephedra is also a vasoconstrictor 14:30 < mabblebrox> it can cause psychosis, yes 14:30 <@fenn> i mean ephedrine 14:30 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30 < mabblebrox> but i've been through massive psychosis anyway, i can keep my shit together 14:30 < jrayhawk> haha 14:30 <@fenn> lol that is barely a sensible thought 14:30 < mabblebrox> i'm just like, ok one bump, 3 bowls and some nitrates 14:31 <@fenn> "trust me bro, i'm insane, it's cool" 14:31 < mabblebrox> lol 14:31 < mabblebrox> i'll admit to clinical insanity, it's no biggy 14:31 < cpopell> Cocaine will not give you superpowers in the gym. 14:31 <@fenn> cocain is also expensive, illegal, addictive, and has bad pharmacokinetics 14:31 < jrayhawk> and superpowers are not a good idea; competition kills you, training is not done at competition levels of activity 14:32 < cpopell> jrayhawk: ehhhhh :P 14:32 < cpopell> jrayhawk: I shoot for upping my 1rm slightly every 2 weeks or so 14:32 < kanzure> what did that have to do with superpowers? 14:33 < cpopell> kanzure: regarding his statement on 'training is not done at competition levels of activity' 14:33 < kanzure> right..? 14:33 < cpopell> competition is probably less strenuous than an average training day 14:33 < cpopell> for weightlifting 14:33 < kanzure> so superpowers are a bad idea because competitions are less strenuous? 14:33 -!- mabblebrox [~mabblebro@cpe-24-26-139-8.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33 < cpopell> no, superpowers are a bad idea because they don't exist 14:34 < jrayhawk> Artificially increasing the limits of your ability will not help make you stronger, it will, in fact, make you weaker. 14:34 < kanzure> that sounds just like semantics ("what's real power, blah blah blah") 14:34 < kanzure> I WILL SHOW YOU MY TRUE POWER, KAKAROT 14:35 < jrayhawk> No, I mean elite athletes exit a competition vastly less healthy than they enter it. 14:35 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:35 < jrayhawk> They are operating at the very edge of their abilities and their bodies suffer for it. 14:35 < cpopell> jrayhawk: depends on the competition 14:35 < jrayhawk> Training happens at much lower levels. 14:35 < cpopell> jrayhawk: you lift 9 times in a powerlifting comp 14:36 < cpopell> That is true, however, for most other sports 14:36 < jrayhawk> And those lifts are all at the edge of your abilities, seriously risking injury. 14:36 < cpopell> No, you usually actually end up lifting slightly less at comp than when you're training 14:36 < jrayhawk> hahaha 14:36 < cpopell> because it's a binary success thing in comp 14:37 < cpopell> whereas it's ok to fail in training 14:37 < jrayhawk> Comps usually involve three tries. 14:37 < jrayhawk> Which isn't quite binary, but it's close. 14:37 < cpopell> yeah, but you're increasing each time 14:37 < cpopell> if you planned it right 14:37 < jrayhawk> Yeah. 14:39 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:42 < kanzure> cpopell: there's this ancient youtube video of björnsson doing a 1000 pound squat and screaming something like "there is no life without strength", do you know where it is? :\ 14:42 < jrayhawk> I will say powerlifts are one of the safest sorts of comps one can do, but they're somewhat anomalous in that regard. 14:42 < cpopell> kanzure: no :( 14:43 < kanzure> it was a very strange video 14:43 < cpopell> jrayhawk: yeah, I agree. It's way safer than dance competitions haha 14:43 < kanzure> he was giving a speech basically 14:43 < jrayhawk> People who powerlift at elite levels (like, higher than 2000) typically exit the competition unhealthy because they enter it unhealthy, though 14:44 < cpopell> are you talking about people in the superheavyweight class? 14:44 -!- mabblebrox [~mabblebro@cpe-24-26-139-8.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:44 < jrayhawk> And below, but yeah. At least oly lifters have working knees and shoulders. 14:44 < cpopell> Eh :P 14:44 < cpopell> I'm elite level, but at 165 14:44 < mabblebrox> a friend is doing olympic squats with knee problems 14:44 < kanzure> knees can be replaced 14:44 < mabblebrox> kinda like fixy bikes 14:44 < mabblebrox> meh 14:45 < mabblebrox> my mother got new knees 14:45 < mabblebrox> still not a pretty sight 14:45 < kanzure> knees are not for looking 14:45 < cpopell> my total is only ~1240 14:45 < mabblebrox> like, glucosamine or whatever 14:46 < kanzure> aha! here we go 14:46 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWUcHKAj_tc 14:46 < yoleaux> There is no reason to be alive if you can't do deadlift. 14:46 < sheena> squats done correctly and within proper resistance ranges can help knee problems 14:47 < jrayhawk> Also non-immunogenic dieting. Anti-tissue-transglutaminase is hell on joints. 14:47 < mabblebrox> wow 14:47 < mabblebrox> nice 14:47 < mabblebrox> non-immonogenic? 14:47 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-140-59.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:48 < eudoxia> so in the end does kanzure use steroids to type faster or not? 14:48 < mabblebrox> he told me he does 14:48 < sheena> i want to know what hypothetical steroids increase.. typing speed? ...? 14:48 < jrayhawk> So, you know all those stupid "shortcuts" you want to take to get bigger? 14:48 < mabblebrox> uh huh 14:48 < jrayhawk> the primary activity of a steroid is to decrease inflammation 14:48 < mabblebrox> hm 14:48 < mabblebrox> meaning? 14:49 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-58-169-106-3.lns4.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49 < jrayhawk> How much trouble your body is in determines what sort of investments your body is willing to make. 14:49 < eudoxia> the thing is i'm such a biopleb i can never know when he's joking or being serious about these things 14:49 < mabblebrox> no, i'm usually very serious about what i talk about 14:49 < jrayhawk> Fat is money in the bank, muscle is a long-term illiquid asset. 14:49 < mabblebrox> ok 14:50 < mabblebrox> fat == potential energy 14:50 < jrayhawk> "Trouble" always eventually comes around to inflammation; anything that goes wrong needs to be cleaned up. Steroids turn off inflammation, which tricks your body into making the long term investment in muscle. 14:50 < mabblebrox> muscle == energy lifter 14:51 < mabblebrox> but, also shrink balls, and turn you into an aggressive asshole 14:51 < jrayhawk> Muscle is also potential energy; glycerol backbones can be put to gluconeogenesis. 14:51 < mabblebrox> muscle is active neergy 14:51 < mabblebrox> energy 14:51 -!- BANHALAL [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:51 < jrayhawk> So, the not-stupid way to make gains is to avoid ever facing substantial inflammatory insults in the first place. 14:52 < jrayhawk> This is what cpopell means when he talks about "eating well" 14:52 < jrayhawk> and "sleeping well" 14:52 < mabblebrox> i'm not trying to insult anybody 14:53 < mabblebrox> well yeah, that's why i like cocaine, it lets you sleep 14:53 < mabblebrox> amphetamines, don't 14:53 < jrayhawk> Cocaine does nothing at all for inflammation other than fuck up the HPA axis. 14:53 < mabblebrox> HPA? 14:54 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamic%E2%80%93pituitary%E2%80%93adrenal_axis 14:54 <@fenn> jrayhawk: you may be wasting your time 14:54 -!- Burnin8 is now known as Burninate 14:55 < jrayhawk> Probably. 14:55 < mabblebrox> no not at all, i'm researching this in earnest 14:55 < kanzure> wasting time has long been a past time of irc 14:55 < mabblebrox> I don't want to fuck myself over 14:55 < mabblebrox> ok wiki says HPA is a stress hormone or somethnig 14:55 < jrayhawk> ... 14:55 < jrayhawk> okay, definitely 14:56 <@fenn> "president francois hollande has vowed to reduce his country's dependence on nuclear power by around 2025 to 50% of all electricity produced" why the hell would he do that? 14:56 < mabblebrox> what's the connection to inflammation 14:56 < mabblebrox> lol 14:56 < mabblebrox> just put a reactor on the moon, duh 14:56 < mabblebrox> moonreactor -> laser transmitted power 14:56 <@fenn> somehow nobody makes the connection between "dangerous nuclear power" and the 250+ coal miners that just died 14:56 < mabblebrox> this shit is all really obvious 14:56 < mabblebrox> lol 14:56 < mabblebrox> good call 14:57 < mabblebrox> and yet coal miners complain about job loss 14:57 <@fenn> deaths from fukushima: 0 14:57 < mabblebrox> but what, inflammation is a bigger problem than performance? 14:57 < mabblebrox> what about NSAIDs? 14:58 < jrayhawk> performance does not determine gains 14:58 < jrayhawk> correlation is not causation 14:58 < mabblebrox> ok 14:58 < mabblebrox> so inflammation is the problem 14:59 < jrayhawk> In large part. You also need some hormetic stimulous for tissue growth, but it doesn't have to be much. 14:59 < mabblebrox> hormetic? like steroids? 14:59 <@fenn> economic impact of turning off your ENTIRE FUCKING COUNTRY's nuclear power: 4% of GDP or 240 billion dollars 14:59 < mabblebrox> ok but what about fallout? 14:59 < jrayhawk> what would steroids be hormetic for? 15:00 < mabblebrox> the technology has evolved, but you've still got natural disasters 15:00 < mabblebrox> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HORMETIC IS 15:00 < mabblebrox> dude -------> me. nub 15:00 < jrayhawk> gosh if only there was some sort of information resource for looking up words 15:00 <@fenn> .wik hormetic 15:00 < yoleaux> "Hormesis (from Greek hórmēsis "rapid motion, eagerness," from ancient Greek hormáein "to set in motion, impel, urge on") is the term for generally favorable biological responses to low exposures to toxins and other stressors. A pollutant or toxin showing hormesis thus has the opposite effect in small doses as in large doses." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormetic 15:00 < mabblebrox> yeah, how bout that 15:00 < mabblebrox> but i'm lazy 15:00 < mabblebrox> ok fine i'll wiki 15:01 < jrayhawk> this isn't a class; you aren't going to get an A for the effort of random word association 15:01 <@fenn> in this case i guess "hormetic stimulus" is exercise? 15:01 < cpopell> mabblebrox: if you're lazy, then you won't get stronger. 15:01 < mabblebrox> true dat 15:01 < mabblebrox> so hormetic is toxin buildup? 15:01 < jrayhawk> you're just going to get sick and dead because you don't give a shit about epistemology and you're fucking around with your health 15:01 < mabblebrox> dude i'm just trying to learn here 15:01 <@fenn> jrayhawk: will radiation make me buff? 15:01 < cpopell> mabblebrox: then go read some books 15:01 < mabblebrox> no i'm not currently using cocaine 15:01 < mabblebrox> gah 15:01 < jrayhawk> what about radioactive steroids 15:02 <@fenn> buff as nutz i mean 15:02 < mabblebrox> fun 15:02 < mabblebrox> no not buff as nutz 15:02 <@fenn> yeah positron emission testosterone 15:02 < cpopell> I don't give a shit if you think it's 'fun' 15:02 < mabblebrox> too much muscle stresses the heart 15:02 < mabblebrox> i didn't say anything was 15:02 < mabblebrox> jesus, i'm just trying to research 15:02 < mabblebrox> a friend told me this is a good place to learn stuff 15:03 < mabblebrox> if ya gonna be assholes i'll just find somewhere else 15:03 <@fenn> go to a bodybuilding forum 15:03 < cpopell> or a powerlifting one 15:03 < mabblebrox> I don't want to bodybuild 15:03 < cpopell> depending if you want to be strong or big 15:03 <@fenn> right 15:03 < mabblebrox> I want to bruce.lee 15:03 < cpopell> I told you 15:03 < cpopell> lift weights 15:03 < mabblebrox> like ffffaaaaast 15:03 < cpopell> do martial arts 15:03 < cpopell> that's it. 15:03 < mabblebrox> yeah 15:04 < cpopell> you can't be bruce lee fast 15:04 < mabblebrox> but that's not enough, I need to accelerate 15:04 < mabblebrox> sure you can 15:04 < cpopell> Then fuck off 15:04 < mabblebrox> dude there's 2 years until the next election 15:04 < eudoxia> ... 15:04 < mabblebrox> if we don't get shit working by then, it's over 15:04 < mabblebrox> so, 15:04 < mabblebrox> bruce.lee 15:04 <@fenn> i didn't follow that line of thought 15:04 < cpopell> what the fuck does bruce lee have to do with the next election? 15:04 < eudoxia> is that a new TTLD 15:04 < cpopell> also, you can't accelerate 15:04 < mabblebrox> do you want a republican in office? 15:04 < cpopell> the most 'acceleration' you can do is to go and work your ass off. 15:04 < mabblebrox> yeah 15:05 < mabblebrox> but, steroids accelerate 15:05 < cpopell> mabblebrox: I generally don't give a shit, the overton window is shifting as is 15:05 < mabblebrox> but make you an asshole 15:05 * fenn facepalms 15:05 < mabblebrox> overton? 15:05 < mabblebrox> apathy will be our demise 15:05 < cpopell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window 15:05 < cpopell> I'm not apathetic, I'm simply not particularly in either party's lap. 15:06 < mabblebrox> well ok that would explain the absolute inefficacy of Obama 15:06 < jrayhawk> 15:06 op ##hplusroadmap jrayhawk 15:06 < jrayhawk> 15:06 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- You are not authorized to perform this operation. 15:06 < mabblebrox> because the public is so damn ignoranc 15:06 < mabblebrox> ignorant 15:06 < cpopell> how does this have anything to do with fitness 15:06 < mabblebrox> nothing, i was just responding to that tangent 15:07 < cpopell> you brought it up. 15:07 < mabblebrox> ok fine my bad 15:07 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o fenn] by ChanServ 15:07 < mabblebrox> all i'm saying, is I need to be highly effective within a 2 year time frame 15:07 < cpopell> ...why 2 years 15:07 < mabblebrox> because 2016 is the next election year 15:08 < mabblebrox> and God help me if Mitt Romney gets elected 15:08 < cpopell> I want you to spell out your train of thought, precisely. 15:08 < mabblebrox> ummmmmmm 15:08 < cpopell> Are you threatening to murder a political candidate? 15:08 < mabblebrox> no 15:08 < fenn> hm did i do that 15:08 < mabblebrox> I have nothing against obama, he has demostrated nothing particularly offensive except inefficacy 15:08 < mabblebrox> what I want to do 15:08 < eudoxia> i think he wants to run 15:08 < eudoxia> i mean that's the vague implication i got from this 15:09 < mabblebrox> is mobilize the inner city population and take down China, North Korea, and Iran, and establish holistic regimes 15:09 < fenn> dammit chanserv 15:09 < mabblebrox> so 15:09 < jrayhawk> haha 15:09 < mabblebrox> I need to be really, really fucking strong 15:09 < eudoxia> jesus christ this channel 15:09 < mabblebrox> seriously 15:09 < mabblebrox> the military is a joke 15:09 < cpopell> What 15:09 < cpopell> does strength 15:09 < mabblebrox> you have x10 the numbers in the inner cities 15:09 < cpopell> have to do with the election 15:09 < mabblebrox> um 15:09 < cpopell> wait, what 15:09 < cpopell> you 15:09 < cpopell> uh 15:09 < mabblebrox> have you ever tried to lead a gang? 15:09 < cpopell> Are you schizophrenic? 15:09 < mabblebrox> no 15:09 < mabblebrox> i'm insane 15:10 < fenn> you're also stupid 15:10 < mabblebrox> like, tryi walking into south central and not die 15:10 < mabblebrox> as a white person 15:10 < mabblebrox> that sort of thing 15:10 < jrayhawk> have you? 15:10 < fenn> try leading a gang and not die, as anyone 15:10 < mabblebrox> unless you can gain popular support with rhetoric 15:10 < mabblebrox> no, i have not 15:10 < mabblebrox> but I hope to 15:10 < eudoxia> maybe it's just me, but has there been an increase in the number of schizophrenics reaching this channel lately? 15:10 < mabblebrox> I would love to just cruise through Compton and throw weed out the window 15:10 < mabblebrox> just me 15:11 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o fenn] by ParahSailin 15:11 <@fenn> go do it then 15:11 < jrayhawk> it's pretty much constant 15:11 < mabblebrox> yeah I hope to, I need funding though 15:11 < mabblebrox> and the gates family won't talk to me 15:11 <@fenn> oh i am an op again 15:11 < jrayhawk> ooh ooh op me op me 15:11 < cpopell> mabblebrox: if I was the gates family I wouldn't talk to you either 15:12 < mabblebrox> yeah no doubt, they're conservo's 15:12 < cpopell> no, because you're -insane- 15:12 <@fenn> mabblebrox: with the power invested in me by ParahSailin, i am expected to notify you that you are lowering the signal to noise ratio of this channel 15:12 < cpopell> and your ideas have to do with a literal civil uprising 15:12 < mabblebrox> well, my bad 15:12 < mabblebrox> yeah, duh 15:12 < mabblebrox> dude where do you think crack came from? 15:12 < mabblebrox> *CIA* 15:12 < mabblebrox> to fund Iran-Contra 15:12 < mabblebrox> so we need some justice 15:13 <@fenn> please don't talk about politics, philosophy, dumb drugs, intentional violence, and other extremely off-topic things 15:13 < mabblebrox> just kick me if i'm being annoying 15:13 < mabblebrox> ok fine 15:13 < jrayhawk> Please do 15:13 < mabblebrox> meh 15:13 < mabblebrox> w/e all i was trying to ascertain is the best way to attain ultimate fitness, rapidly 15:13 < mabblebrox> but i'll go bleh elsewhere if this is offensive 15:14 < jrayhawk> And the majority of the stuff you're saying is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong due to abysmally bad epistemology 15:14 < eudoxia> i think late 2013 was the peak in terms of paranoid schizophrenics/everyone else 15:14 < mabblebrox> sigh 15:14 < mabblebrox> maybe 15:14 < jrayhawk> it is mostly just nonsesnse 15:14 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 15:14 < ruphos> life is hard, being so misunderstood 15:14 < mabblebrox> the moment may have passed, and we are all doomed 15:14 < jrayhawk> s/snse/nse/ 15:14 < mabblebrox> I just have this tendency to hope 15:15 < mabblebrox> but if this is the wrong room for me to mabble i'll quit and bleh elswewher 15:18 <@fenn> i find actual schizophrenics to be fascinating to talk to 15:18 <@fenn> it depends on the personality of course, but you can get drawn into their alternate reality 15:18 < mabblebrox> mental illness is awesome 15:19 < mabblebrox> psychotic people are so entertaining 15:19 < mabblebrox> it's beautiful 15:19 < FourFire> kanzure, can you critique my post here please? http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/25llwz/my_immortal_dreamhayk_amirbekyan/chj07xu 15:19 < mabblebrox> normal people are just boring 15:19 <@fenn> yes normal people are boring, but also they are starved for genuine contact and communication 15:19 < mabblebrox> indeed 15:19 < mabblebrox> that's what Lateralus (of Tool) is all about 15:19 < FourFire> I'm trying to, haltingly, improve the discourse and amount of stuff being done in that location 15:19 <@fenn> when it takes an investment just to be able to understand what you're saying, people don't generally try to talk to you 15:20 < mabblebrox> yeah true 15:20 < cpopell> FourFire: Don't bother 15:20 < mabblebrox> but, people read Deleuze 15:20 < mabblebrox> people can't even get my level 15:20 < FourFire> I know that I can't write, but maybe if I say the right things then other people will be inspired to spread the message (?) 15:20 -!- sheena [~home@67.201.165.63] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21 < mabblebrox> you'd hope 15:21 < mabblebrox> that's why I play music 15:21 < mabblebrox> people will never read 15:21 < mabblebrox> but they'll listen to a song 15:21 < kanzure> 15:01 < jrayhawk> this isn't a class; you aren't going to get an A for the effort of random word association 15:21 < cpopell> mabblebrox: I prefer to read than listen to songs 15:21 < cpopell> mabblebrox: Songs don't have supporting references, generally 15:21 < mabblebrox> well you're not normal then :-P 15:21 < mabblebrox> dude listen to the Chili Peppers 15:21 < mabblebrox> they say all you need to know 15:22 < cpopell> Also, I don't care for metaphor when someone's trying to make a point on policy or science. 15:22 < mabblebrox> sigh 15:22 < mabblebrox> so, no answer to the original question? 15:22 < mabblebrox> i'm getting bored 15:22 -!- sheena [~home@67.201.165.63] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:23 < cpopell> your original question is 'how can I be an anime character' 15:23 < cpopell> the answer is 'you can't' 15:23 < mabblebrox> no 'how can I attain to the level of Bruce Lee rapidly' 15:23 < cpopell> yes, this is the same thing 15:23 < mabblebrox> fine 15:23 < cpopell> you want a training montage 15:23 < mabblebrox> yeah 15:23 < mabblebrox> real fast too 15:23 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:23 < cpopell> bruce lee trained for something like 17 years 15:23 < mabblebrox> mhm 15:23 < mabblebrox> i don't have that much time 15:23 < mabblebrox> this is transhumanism, i thought somebody might have an idea 15:24 < mabblebrox> apparently it's up to me 15:24 < mabblebrox> thanks for the help 15:24 < cpopell> sorry, 20 years 15:24 < eudoxia> exactly, this is an h+ channel, so people are more likely to take the long view on some things :> 15:24 < mabblebrox> yeah i've done basics, tai chi, etc 15:24 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ 15:24 < mabblebrox> well i need results, fast 15:24 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o jrayhawk] by kanzure 15:24 < cpopell> mabblebrox: What if you can't have them? 15:24 <@fenn> you can study what scientists have learned about muscle metabolism in order to learn what does and doesn't work 15:24 < mabblebrox> all i thought was, either cocaine, or steroids, cautiously used 15:25 < mabblebrox> meh 15:25 < mabblebrox> call me a fool then 15:25 <@fenn> "an hour in the library saves months in the lab" 15:25 < mabblebrox> i'll let the planet die without a second though 15:25 < mabblebrox> thought 15:25 <@kanzure> an hour in irc makes a bunch of transhumanists angry at you 15:25 < mabblebrox> yes, apparently so. 15:25 <@fenn> yeah we're not really a library, not even a reference desk 15:26 <@kanzure> hi how can i help you go fuck yourself? 15:26 < mabblebrox> well, like i said, i'm a nub 15:26 < mabblebrox> i'm just asking questions nobody would ask 15:26 <@kanzure> i don't care how much of a nub or doorstop you are 15:26 < mabblebrox> because i'm insane 15:26 < mabblebrox> well fine 15:26 <@fenn> we get these questions from people all the time, and it's annoying 15:26 < cpopell> mabblebrox: Do the ground work, or get out. 15:26 < mabblebrox> nobody has ever had to deal with what I have to 15:26 < cpopell> mabblebrox: I'm sure there are plenty of insane men who decided they wanted to take over the country. 15:26 < mabblebrox> well w/e i'll stop bothering you guys 15:27 < mabblebrox> apparently it's not the right locale 15:27 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o entelechy] by kanzure 15:27 <@kanzure> wait, hm 15:27 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-q entelechy!*@*] by kanzure 15:27 < mabblebrox> but, as i leave, I say: Kanzure, 15:27 < mabblebrox> steroids ... for typing. 15:27 < mabblebrox> dude. 15:27 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+b *!*mabblebro@*] by jrayhawk 15:27 <@kanzure> adderall is not a steroid 15:27 <@fenn> don't feed the troll 15:27 < eudoxia> you've said goodbye like three times 15:28 -!- mabblebrox [~mabblebro@cpe-24-26-139-8.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:28 <@jrayhawk> oh, yes, -q would be better, huh 15:28 <@kanzure> +q 15:28 * kanzure snickers 15:29 <@fenn> d00dz i need to exercise my op skilz so i can megaban like lightning bruce.l33t 15:29 <@kanzure> bruce l33t hah 15:29 < FourFire> " i think late 2013 was the peak in terms of paranoid schizophrenics/everyone else" the peak where, in this channel? 15:29 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+q mabblebrox!*@*] by jrayhawk 15:29 < eudoxia> yes 15:29 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-b *!*mabblebro@*] by jrayhawk 15:29 <@kanzure> hahaha 15:29 < cpopell> what's +q? 15:30 <@fenn> quiet 15:30 < cpopell> ah 15:30 <@kanzure> it's like gagging them 15:30 < FourFire> kanzure, is that a negative then? 15:30 < eudoxia> why can't it just say quiet 15:30 <@fenn> how do we deliver cheese whiz over IRC 15:30 < eudoxia> it's like those goddamn unix permission numbers 15:30 <@kanzure> it's almost like irc was a poorly designed piece of crap? 15:30 < FourFire> cpopell, why should I not bother, are there far superior ways of attaining what I want? 15:31 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:31 < cpopell> FourFire: You aren't going to improve the signal noise ratio of futurology 15:31 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: so you got that last one wrong 15:31 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-b *!*mabblebro@*] by kanzure 15:31 <@kanzure> wow why did the x disappear? 15:32 <@jrayhawk> What was wrong? 15:32 <@kanzure> it was mabblebrox 15:32 <@kanzure> oh the ban was mabblebro 15:32 <@jrayhawk> Not the localpart, no 15:32 <@kanzure> oh right, local 15:32 <@kanzure> yes i see now 15:33 <@kanzure> i should feel less bad about my instincts about irc users 15:33 <@kanzure> have i had any false positives? 15:34 < FourFire> cpopell, so, are there places that you suggest frequenting instead which already have a greater signal/noise ratio and which discuss similar topics? 15:34 <@kanzure> i mean, false positives when detecting terrible people 15:34 <@fenn> escapist 15:34 < cpopell> FourFire: Topical, really 15:35 <@fenn> why is there no ##bodybuilding 15:35 < FourFire> this channel is a bit small, and I don't really feel like I have anything to add, there's like 8-12 regularly active here 15:35 <@kanzure> i gave escapist a fair shot, but he was just pissed that i was answreing his questions 15:35 <@kanzure> *answering 15:35 <@kanzure> plus, i didn't actually ban him 15:35 < FourFire> so kanzure nothing? 15:35 <@fenn> but you were asking about "detecting" 15:35 <@fenn> i think it's generally good to explain to people why they suck before banning them 15:35 <@fenn> unless it's a repeat offender 15:36 <@kanzure> good point, yes i did say detecting 15:37 <@fenn> also, mental illness is not an excuse for being an ass 15:37 <@kanzure> FourFire: the only solution is not to seek out signal/noise like that, but produce your own signal 15:38 < FourFire> kanzure, so, what I'm doing in the subreddit is wrong, or correct or do you mean I should be active in here with interesting and relevant things? 15:38 <@kanzure> i used to think that there's no bodybuilding irc culture because the cultures are non-intersecting, but now i'm not so sure 15:38 <@kanzure> which subreddit? 15:38 <@fenn> there are zillions of bodybuilding forums, either way it's text-based communication 15:38 < FourFire> http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/ 15:38 < FourFire> did you even look at my post? 15:38 <@kanzure> fenn, yes and there's a bunch of thoughtful bodybuilder people. jojack for instance. 15:39 <@jrayhawk> 'bodybuilding' is pretty narrow; maybe 'exercise physiology' or, more primitively, 'fitness' would get better results? 15:39 <@fenn> 'fitness' is too broad 15:40 <@kanzure> bodybuilding is narrow but it has wide scope in terms of "people who have been unnecessarily ostracized" 15:40 <@kanzure> or at least, some of them 15:40 <@fenn> "Strength is not an absolute value. To be strong is to evolve. Mutability is strength. Evolution is a string of victories by the strong over the meek. The meek shall not inherit the Earth." 15:40 <@kanzure> i shouldn't glamorize it too much, there's a bunch of idiots i'm sure 15:41 -!- not_unoriginal [~helpcompu@172.56.40.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41 <@fenn> not exactly the quote i was looking for, but it'll do 15:42 <@kanzure> FourFire: sorry, which post? 15:42 <@jrayhawk> google indicates irc://irc.chat4all.net/#bodybuilding.com might be relevant 15:42 <@kanzure> oh yeah, "the 4chan of steroid users".. so that's bound to be interesting. 15:42 < FourFire> kanzure, http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/25llwz/my_immortal_dreamhayk_amirbekyan/chj07xu 15:43 < pasky> frankly, i'd have strong tendency to ostracize bodybuilders too, isn't that just an exercise in vanity, to look in a particular way? i admire people who are strong, have high endurance etc., but bodybuilders? 15:43 < FourFire> I want you to critique it, maybe there's something I can say better, or less stupidly 15:43 <@kanzure> FourFire: well, a plan is an okay direction 15:43 <@kanzure> almost like a roadmap or something 15:43 <@kanzure> some sort of roadmap for hplus things, i dunno 15:43 <@kanzure> gosh 15:44 < eudoxia> has the lifeboat foundation actually done anything 15:44 <@kanzure> the lifeboat foundation did mastercoin 15:44 < eudoxia> other than recruit half the united states into their board 15:44 < FourFire> eudoxia, I was only outlining that there are lots of causes people can follow 15:44 < FourFire> not that i endorsed any of them in particular 15:44 <@kanzure> .d vanity 15:44 < yoleaux> vanity (/ˈvanɪti/): n. (vanities) 1. Excessive pride in or admiration of one’s own appearance or achievements: it flattered his ⁓ to think I was in love with him — http://is.gd/5gowSQ 15:44 < FourFire> note that I didn't link SENS in the post 15:45 <@fenn> pasky: but then you start ostracising the bodymodders and transgenders and where does it stop? 15:45 < eudoxia> FourFire: i don't know much about SENS. why is it bad or something? 15:45 < pasky> i don't know about transgenders 15:45 <@kanzure> pasky: it's not just about appearances htough 15:45 <@fenn> i'd rather encourage what's important than discourage "sins" 15:45 <@kanzure> pasky: it's about showing that you can manipulate the body in certain ways 15:45 < FourFire> eudoxia, I'm the sort of person who would support/advocate SENS over other causes 15:45 <@jrayhawk> http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?chat=body+building 15:46 <@kanzure> irc.chat4all.net/#bodybuilding.com is kinda small 15:46 < pasky> i guess i borrowed the word "ostracize" rather carelessly, they just seem kind of silly to me, no strong feelings :) 15:47 <@kanzure> yes it's partly silly 15:47 <@fenn> i feel the same way about cars 15:47 <@kanzure> but it's not morally evil because steroids, or because they are strong when others are not 15:47 <@fenn> transport is important, propulsion engineering is important, but "go faster" is kinda pointless in an internal combustion engine 15:47 <@fenn> the difference between mr. Bjornsson and me is miniscule in the scale of the universe 15:47 < pasky> kanzure: you have a good point there, but i'll still much more admire people who *use* the way they modify their body rather than just *show* it 15:48 < pasky> oh of course, i didn't mean to imply it's morally evil 15:48 <@kanzure> yeah, i didn't mean to imply that you implied that, but it's something in the popular consensus rather 15:48 < pasky> i guess 15:48 <@kanzure> i am not sure there are any jobs that require you to be really jacked up like that 15:48 -!- not_unoriginal [~helpcompu@172.56.40.141] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:48 <@fenn> model 15:49 <@kanzure> 3d models are better at it 15:49 <@kanzure> uncanny dungeon and such 15:49 <@fenn> mutagenic menagerie 15:49 <@fenn> how bout them cows 15:49 <@fenn> .wik bull terrier 15:49 < yoleaux> "The Bull Terrier is a breed of dog in the terrier family. There is also a miniature version of this breed which is officially known as the Miniature Bull Terrier." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_terrier 15:50 <@fenn> wrong dog 15:51 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: if i was to add you and fenn to the op list, do i want SOP, AOP, HOP, or VOP? 15:51 <@kanzure> it looks like at least HOP? 15:52 -!- |apex| [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:52 <@kanzure> /query chanserv flags ##hplusroadmap fenn +o 15:54 -!- |apex| [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54 -!- apex [~apex@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:55 <@kanzure> hmm i didn't consider this but maybe the reason for the new influx of users is because reddit.com added http://reddit.com/r/futorology to the front page 15:56 <@fenn> gee thanks reddit 15:56 <@kanzure> no kidding 15:57 < eudoxia> https://www.google.com/?#newwindow=1&q=site:reddit.com+%22%23%23hplusroadmap%22 15:57 < eudoxia> not that many results 15:57 <@kanzure> true 15:57 <@kanzure> but i also worry about second-order effects 15:57 <@kanzure> how many hops from http://reddit.com/r/futorology to something that gets them here 15:57 < eudoxia> without direct linking, it seems this channel is a little too obscure for the average r/futurologist to find it 15:58 < eudoxia> haha i found cpopell http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/zq56m/im_dr_ben_goertzel_artificial_general/c66s6e8 15:58 * eudoxia waves 15:58 <@kanzure> "Humanity+ doesn't represent the movement in an adequate manner, otherwise groups like hplusroadmap wouldn't have splintered off." 15:58 <@kanzure> "They were the originals. The splinter groups should re-brand themselves rather than stealing the More's hard from the past 2 decades." 15:58 <@fenn> "fantastic resources for when you need questions answered RIGHT THIS MOMENT" - delinquentme 15:58 <@kanzure> no no no we're the people's front of fucking judiah 15:59 <@kanzure> fenn: "My method of learning is to ask ParahSailin until he cries" - delinquentme 15:59 < eudoxia> http://www.reddit.com/r/bioinformatics/comments/owgx0/im_recruiting_awesome_brains_for_a_few_irc/ and this was by delinquentme 15:59 <@kanzure> "hplusroadmap is invite only" i wish 16:00 <@kanzure> the problem with invite only is that i wouldn't ever be able to convince the hardware people to show up 16:01 <@kanzure> "well first you have to register with this thing called nickserv.." 16:01 < delinquentme> I wonder if Ill ever learn that some people just want to be fucks for no good reason 16:02 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure 16:02 < delinquentme> including those thoe navel-gaze to infinity 16:02 < kanzure> yes.. navel-gazing. that's exactly what's happening here. sure.. 16:02 < delinquentme> kanzure with the " dont post shit from reddit " 16:02 < kanzure> xentrac posted a really good reddit link 16:02 < delinquentme> kanzure, "but it's not morally evil because steroids, or because they are strong when others are not" 16:02 < kanzure> unfortunately it was a reddit link to his own comment on reddit, which wouldn't have been there if it wasn't him 16:02 < delinquentme> like thats not fucking 30 lines up 16:03 < delinquentme> fuck off about it or dont help 16:03 < kanzure> you should read that as "just because it is steroids does not mean it is morally evil" 16:03 < delinquentme> kanzure, I read 'navel-gazing' 16:03 < kanzure> i'm confusede 16:04 < kanzure> -e 16:06 < cpopell> marshallp is crazy btw. 16:06 < delinquentme> seriously kanzure leaders do not behave the way you do 16:07 < kanzure> they don't kick and ban people? 16:07 < delinquentme> but theres fuck all I can do about it if your leadership style is derived from 4chan 16:08 < delinquentme> IDK if fenn is any better here with the typical " SHAME PEOPLE WHO DO IT DIFFERENTLY" 16:08 <@fenn> SHAME 16:08 < delinquentme> but thats a choice, again, that is up to either of you 16:08 < kanzure> uh yeah, shame... sure. 16:09 <@fenn> problem is that shame doesn't work on morons 16:09 < FourFire> so kanzure is there anything more you have to say about my post besides that I should have linked diyhpl.us/wiki/ in my post? 16:09 < kanzure> FourFire: i don't think i said that though 16:09 < delinquentme> fenn, I do believe I shoved your face in shit the other day and consequently was quiet and cool about it 16:09 < kanzure> FourFire: you might want to include some metric for evaluating whether or not a plan is working, or whether or not a plan is a good idea 16:09 < delinquentme> How do you deal with it when you show people up? Looks like you dance around. 16:10 < delinquentme> fucking half males 16:10 <@fenn> yeah you're so mature 16:10 < kanzure> let's have a database that keeps track of how much face everyone has, and then redistribute face from the facerich to the facepoor 16:10 < delinquentme> fenn, YES good default behavior ... " BUT HE DID IT FIRST ! " 16:10 < eudoxia> facecoin 16:11 < eudoxia> wait that might collide with a facepunch studios project 16:11 < kanzure> phew glad we avoided that catastrophe 16:11 < kanzure> for a moment there i thought it was a genuinely bad idea 16:11 <@fenn> kanzure: it's called whuffie, or at least it was supposed to be before it was raped by twitter and abandoned on an exit ramp of the information superhighway 16:11 < delinquentme> kanzure, 16:11 < delinquentme> who the fuck taught you how to behave? 16:11 < kanzure> fenn: i don't actually believe in face in this context 16:12 < kanzure> fenn: i'm obviously being sarcastic.. face doesn't matter at all. 16:12 < delinquentme> again. stupid conversations. 16:12 < delinquentme> fuck this. 16:12 * fenn waves 16:13 < kanzure> btw, "shame people who do it differently" is just in your head 16:14 < delinquentme> Nah I think i'm learning life lessons here 16:14 < delinquentme> that you can be quite accepting of people and some people are just going to be fucks 16:14 <@fenn> you can abuse a resource and then pretend you have been abused 16:14 < kanzure> where do you get this from 16:14 <@fenn> classy 16:15 <@jrayhawk> kanzure: I would suggest ignoring the templates and go through the flags yourself 16:15 < delinquentme> fenn, I'm projecting here, yes, but I guess I'm wrong to think that people can be decent to one another 16:15 < kanzure> jrayhawk: is there any problem with just setting +o on you 16:15 < delinquentme> especially when were talking non-zero sum resources 16:16 < kanzure> being decent just to be decent is disgusting 16:16 < kanzure> and wrong 16:16 < kanzure> it's a complete violation of the concept of decency 16:16 <@fenn> somebody think of the children 16:16 <@jrayhawk> sounds fine to me 16:17 < kanzure> STOTC doesn't seem to apply there? 16:17 < delinquentme> kanzure, you're a funny fat fuck 16:17 < delinquentme> Funny people are good for that 16:17 < delinquentme> It sucks that you carry that baggage into adulthood 16:18 < kanzure> enlighten me 16:18 < delinquentme> but I don't suppose that you have something funny to say about that 16:18 < cpopell> delinquentme: I like how you're now trying to psychoanalyze him now. 16:18 < delinquentme> cpopell, what are you contributing here? 16:18 < delinquentme> cpopell, yes thats exactly what im doing. 16:18 < delinquentme> and? 16:18 < kanzure> he is telling you that he likes something 16:19 < cpopell> It amuses me. 16:19 < kanzure> he is telling you that it amuses him 16:19 < delinquentme> and why is it funny 16:19 < delinquentme> come on in now 16:19 < kanzure> get back to me 16:19 < delinquentme> contribute to the circle jerk! 16:19 < eudoxia> i think the implication is that you should have psychoanalyzed him earlier? 16:20 < cpopell> delinquentme: I have no idea what my role in this channel is except at the moment, but at least in the last year I've usually refrained from popping up with inane ideas and then disappearing again when people are frustrated with me (with a couple exceptions) 16:20 < kanzure> cpopell: that's not the only problem at play.. there's other issues like a really broken theory of mind or learning. 16:20 < delinquentme> consider the environment you want to foster here kanzure 16:21 < kanzure> cpopell: ("learning can only be achieved by talking to ParahSailin") 16:21 < kanzure> frankly this is a great enivronment 16:21 < delinquentme> cpopell, I dont really have anything to say to you 16:21 < kanzure> it is the strongest transhumanism group ever, by orders of magnitude 16:21 < delinquentme> kanzure, hahahaha 16:22 < kanzure> i am glad it amuses you, because frankly it makes me cry 16:22 < delinquentme> I would bet that mantra is more fun than porn for you huh? 16:22 < delinquentme> Speaking of being productive ! 16:22 < delinquentme> yay! 16:22 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 16:22 < cpopell> Where the fuck does his money come from? 16:23 < cpopell> he's always buying shit and lives in SF 16:23 < kanzure> integrated plasmonics, a few ruby/rails gigs 16:23 < FourFire> kanzure, well I'm not really sure, do you think I'm onto something with this thing I call "Progress" or am I just talking out of my ass? 16:23 < FourFire> because an indication of whether "a plan" is working would be a greater amount of observed effects of "progress" 16:24 < juri_> i build printers. :) 16:24 < kanzure> FourFire: dunno what to tell you 16:25 < kanzure> like, "and it is important that different people work in parallel on all of the different causes" is a cheap way of dodging important questions 16:25 < FourFire> "facepoor" 16:25 < FourFire> ... 16:25 < kanzure> "well, instead of figuring it out, i'm just going to allocate resources in parallel to everything" 16:26 < kanzure> which seems like a possibly wrong allocation strategy 16:27 < dingo> mm 16:28 < dingo> doing everything very poorly, generally, is the outcome 16:30 <@jrayhawk> i am sad because delinquentme didn't criticize me 16:30 < kanzure> he probably doesn't even know you exist 16:30 < kanzure> you are like a shadow 16:31 < cpopell> I have him on facebook for some ungodly reason 16:31 < kanzure> i've opted not to ban him because for all of his problems he does actually tend to tinker around with hardware 16:31 < kanzure> but this may be wrong on my part 16:32 <@jrayhawk> I am not a shadow! I am totally worth devaluing/externalizing! 16:32 <@jrayhawk> grumble grumble 16:32 <@jrayhawk> This was pretty uncharacteristic for him, so it may have just been a bad day or something. 16:33 <@jrayhawk> A temporary regression to a black and white thinking. 16:33 < kanzure> have we ever made any progress on him in any area whatsoever? 16:35 < kanzure> gee i hope i didn't tell him to move to sf, i hope that's not the only thing he's listened to 16:35 < kanzure> seems like he got that idea from other directions anyway 16:38 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-140-59.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:41 <@ParahSailin> heh 16:43 < kanzure> //modified by NIZHNY-MZV Thu Apr 20 09:34:33 2000 16:43 < kanzure> //see comments at the top of file TopOpeBRepBuild_Builder1.cxx 16:43 < kanzure> //about using of this global variable 16:43 < kanzure> GLOBAL_USE_NEW_BUILDER = Standard_True; 16:44 < kanzure> https://github.com/tpaviot/oce/blob/master/src/BRepAlgo/BRepAlgo_BooleanOperation.cxx 16:44 < FourFire> kanzure, ok I surely worded that one poorly 16:44 <@fenn> Standard_True is better than Custom_True 16:45 < kanzure> Done(); return; what was the point of this? 16:45 < kanzure> global state locking? 16:45 < FourFire> what I meant was that there are loads of different things which must be worked on, and we, humans can do so much more efficiently with specialization, so, even though I don't know much about or show interest in *all of these specialized areas* they are still important to humanity's efforts as a whole 16:46 < kanzure> i am not interested in making statements about humanity-as-a-whole 16:46 < kanzure> making broad statements on that topic is probably much more difficult than making the normal kind of statement 16:47 <@ParahSailin> wow, now i understand "need questions answered RIGHT THIS MOMENT" 16:47 < FourFire> kanzure, so avoiding even mentioning that relevant topic entirely is a less cheap method than doing it poorly? 16:48 <@fenn> pretty sure i wrote something about this 16:48 < kanzure> can you be more specific, the "relevant topic" is the reddit thread that i didn't read? 16:48 <@ParahSailin> no reddit 16:49 < FourFire> ""well, instead of figuring it out, i'm just going to allocate resources in parallel to everything"" when I say this what I mean is that other people should specialize in the other areas 16:50 < kanzure> i'm having trouble determining if the Perform() method in that file is the entirety of the boolean operation code.. i thought there was a bunch of knot stuff you had to do for surface-surface intersection. 16:50 < FourFire> I'm trying to make myself more credible by pinting out that I don't think that "the one true way" is to work on anti-aging and regenerative medicine technology 16:51 <@fenn> FourFire: an outline of thoughts on "what is important" from a year ago ish http://fennetic.net/irc/hplusroadmap.draft 16:51 < FourFire> I'm trying to defanaticise myself in the eye of the reader, and clearly I'm not doing it very well 16:51 <@ParahSailin> unsafeLaunchMissiles is totally safe 16:51 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:51 < delinquentme> So listen. What exactly is it that you guys want to see out of this channel? 16:52 < kanzure> FourFire: transhumanism is more of a process rather than a list of "one true way" things 16:52 <@ParahSailin> lack of googling 16:52 < kanzure> FourFire: it's about building technology 16:52 < delinquentme> The specifics on how I use it in asking questions here, adding efficiencies to what I'm looking into ... is bad? 16:52 < kanzure> FourFire: with some bounds on it 16:52 <@fenn> delinquentme: yes 16:52 <@ParahSailin> perhaps r/askscience or something is what you actually want 16:52 < delinquentme> How is this channel better used fenn? 16:52 <@fenn> that is called "taking and not giving back" 16:53 < delinquentme> Okay, how should a good member of the channel be giving back? 16:53 < delinquentme> yes I know I could be working on paperbot 16:53 < delinquentme> whos still not present 16:53 <@fenn> answer as many questions as you ask 16:53 <@ParahSailin> github.com/kanzure/paperbot.git 16:53 <@ParahSailin> is present 16:54 < FourFire> kanzure, yeah, exactly, I'm saying that I don't think *what I happen to be into* is a "one true way" I even say "There is no single greatest cause for everyone to follow so far as I can determine, just a vague direction which I will tentatively call "Progress"" 16:54 < kanzure> paperbot is an okay example, but in general, hardware projects 16:54 < delinquentme> paperbot is something everyone uses so thats a good " tides raise all the ships " kind of thing 16:55 <@ParahSailin> i would probably be more forgiving of dumb questions if you proved yourself useful somehow 16:55 < kanzure> your prototype of a pipetting machine is one of the reasons i haven't permabanned you yet 16:55 < delinquentme> OpSci 16:56 < delinquentme> this channel is listed on the codebase 16:56 <@fenn> speaking of hardware projects, i'm talking to clock in #brlcad and he's pointing at his hardware directory and asking for donations to finish the latest project http://www.twibright.com/hw.php 16:56 <@fenn> i told him he should accept bitcoin and that i had no bitcoins 16:56 < kanzure> how much money does he want 16:56 <@fenn> $2500 16:56 < kanzure> and what is the project 16:57 <@fenn> feeding himself i guess. the project was a water distillation device for third world something something 16:57 < kanzure> um, aren't there 1000 million orgs that are doing water distillation device funding 16:57 <@fenn> that's what i thought but i could be wrong 16:57 <@fenn> NGOs have terrible efficiencies at actually doing stuff 16:58 < kanzure> yes, but many of them do <$5k grants on random projects, which a water distillation thing would probably qualify for 16:58 < kanzure> my point is, i'm not going to give him $2.5k for that heh 16:58 <@ParahSailin> nobody in third world actually needs water distillation device 16:58 <@fenn> right, i'm not sure what to say 16:58 <@ParahSailin> clean drinking water is a solved problem 16:58 <@fenn> uh, what? 16:58 < delinquentme> ^ 16:59 <@fenn> i think distillation is overkill, but clean water is not a solved problem 16:59 <@ParahSailin> yeah, you fill liter water bottles up with water and you sit them in the sunshine for a day 16:59 <@ParahSailin> this is ghetto tek and it works 100% of the time all the time 16:59 < delinquentme> I'm not sure thats denaturing viruses * 16:59 <@ParahSailin> delinquentme: listen to the experts 16:59 < delinquentme> Am I wrong? 17:00 <@ParahSailin> you are 17:00 <@jrayhawk> viruses are pretty fragile 17:00 <@fenn> what about water with high turbidity, pesticides, heavy metals 17:00 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00 <@ParahSailin> fenn yeah, those are still problems 17:01 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, sure but I'm missing how they're getting destroyed 17:01 < delinquentme> " the sunshine protocol " 17:01 <@fenn> thymidine dimer formation i think 17:01 <@ParahSailin> sunshine contains vitamin d and x rays 17:01 <@fenn> and happiness 17:02 <@fenn> little known fact: happiness is ionizing radiation 17:02 <@fenn> this is why thunderstorms smell good 17:02 < kanzure> i always wondered about that 17:03 <@fenn> ParahSailin: the sun trick is good to know though; why did it take so long to become general knowledge? (is it?) 17:03 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, so the Xrays make sense ... vitamin D is created within the body which is assisted by vitamin D 17:03 <@jrayhawk> haha 17:04 <@ParahSailin> delinquentme: false, vitamin d is an isotope of heavy oxygen formed by cosmic rays 17:04 < delinquentme> lol sorry sunlight 17:04 <@ParahSailin> fenn: i think theres a stigma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_water_disinfection 17:04 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:05 <@ParahSailin> fenn: it makes you feel like a third worlder if you have hundreds of water bottles on the corrugated roof of your shack 17:05 <@fenn> i see 17:06 <@fenn> dying of dysentery is so much more dignified 17:07 <@fenn> does this work on overcast days 17:07 < kanzure> maybe you can use a giant lense on overcast days 17:08 <@fenn> you can make a giant lens out of water.. coincidence?! 17:08 <@fenn> i hate those crinkly bottles 17:09 <@ParahSailin> send crinkly bottles to rhodesia 17:10 -!- kardan [~kardan@2001:470:75b7:1049:a2f3:c1ff:fe1b:56e9] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:10 < kanzure> why isn't clock in here? 17:10 <@fenn> "You need sunny weather, or two days of overcast sky, to reach the maximum effectiveness. SODIS becomes less effective as you travel away from the equator. You cannot use it in rain; it offers no residual disinfection; it may be less effective against bacterial spores and cyst stages of some parasites" 17:11 < kanzure> i wonder if you can have a material that will track sunlight 17:11 < kanzure> and then you can look at the color to determine whether or not the bottle is ready 17:11 <@fenn> for a second i was thinking MEMS mirror array paint 17:11 < kanzure> could just be a dye 17:11 <@ParahSailin> lol, no you need to go more russian ghetto tek 17:11 < kanzure> photodiode? 17:12 < FourFire> " nobody in third world actually needs water distillation device" what? 17:12 < delinquentme> fenn, thats a process used in making really large lenses... You'll get a nice big parabola when you spin a liquid while it sets 17:12 <@ParahSailin> it needs to be a monkey model 17:12 < delinquentme> +1 How its made 17:12 <@fenn> delinquentme: you can put water over a stretched plastic film and it will make a catenary (hyperbola) 17:13 <@ParahSailin> bangladesh needs water distillation, but generally, water bottles in the sun will do it for most people 17:13 <@fenn> kinda hard to control the focal length though 17:14 < FourFire> ParahSailin, direct your attention to the "water" section: http://www.worldometers.info/ 17:14 < kanzure> a single photodiode will probably work 17:14 < kanzure> or even a thermometer 17:14 < kanzure> temperature correlates with sunlight exposure. have one thermometer per 10 m^2 of bottles. 17:14 <@fenn> how about e. coli 17:14 <@ParahSailin> FourFire: you are probably not paying attention to this conversation, so i wont bother responding 17:14 <@fenn> lactobacillus spores 17:14 < kanzure> fenn, and then check under a microscope? 17:14 <@fenn> no, plate on agar 17:14 < FourFire> ParahSailin, I am so! 17:14 < kanzure> plating on agar takes too long i think? 17:15 < kanzure> takes more than an hour to see a colony 17:15 < kanzure> you should just be able to look at a bottle and "know" 17:15 <@ParahSailin> do you have some ability to not read messages i say? 17:15 <@fenn> i can't think of anything else that measures what you want to measure 17:15 < kanzure> you should instantly know "This is less likely to kill me" without wondering "how many clouds passed over me yesterday" 17:15 < FourFire> I have the disability to not be able to read everything that's going on all at once 17:15 <@ParahSailin> k, scroll up, and im not gonna give you any hints where to look 17:16 < sheena> what us airport has the most direct flights to locations around the us? 17:16 <@ParahSailin> chicago? 17:16 <@jrayhawk> Yeah, I'm not finding anything about distillation on this page. 17:16 <@jrayhawk> or possibly Denver 17:17 < kanzure> sheena: atlanta, charlotte, dallas-fort worth, houston, detroit, in that order 17:18 < sheena> kanzure: source? 17:18 < kanzure> my ass :( 17:18 < FourFire> ParahSailin, if you looked at my link you would see that there are still plenty of people dying due to waterborne disease 17:18 < kanzure> sheena: oh, how about this http://www.bbc.com/travel/blog/20130205-which-are-the-best-us-airports-for-connections (but this isn't direct) 17:18 <@jrayhawk> FourFire: That is orthogonal to ParahSailin's claim. 17:18 < FourFire> so, unless those statistics are incorrect, or people really do kill themselves due to pride "100% of the time" then it isn't a solved problem 17:19 -!- not_unoriginal [~helpcompu@172.56.40.141] has quit [Quit: HALP CMPUTER] 17:19 <@fenn> pretty sure education is a big component of the problem 17:19 <@jrayhawk> A distribution and education problem is not the same as a methodological or production problem. 17:20 < kanzure> another lowtech way is to just get weather reports from the interwebz 17:20 < kanzure> and if it was cloudy the whole day, less sunlight 17:20 <@fenn> or just leave stuff out for two days instead of one 17:20 < kanzure> but chances of it being cloudy two days in a row are.. actually i don't know. 17:20 < kanzure> it's not impossible 17:20 <@fenn> the sun goes around like clockwork :P 17:20 < sheena> kanzure: how do you know this stuf? it's just a fact you keep in your brain? 17:20 <@fenn> i think 2 days of overcast is enough 17:21 < kanzure> sheena: lots of travel.. i get routed to a bunch of places. but also, i am superfast at google. 17:21 < kanzure> "gee i wonder why i keep going through houston" 17:22 <@ParahSailin> there might be places in the world where people are dying of cholera and dont even have access to crinkly water bottles 17:22 < sheena> i tried to google. just did not work. poop 17:22 <@ParahSailin> in that case, we should promote distribution of crinkly water bottles to them, not stills 17:22 < sheena> dog group wants to hold a seminar but doenst care where. seems logical to me for them to hold it in the most accessible city via airport.. ye? 17:23 < kanzure> ParahSailin: maybe they can just go to the shore and find a few dying water bottle turtles 17:24 <@jrayhawk> people still go hungry in the world, we need to develop portable soylent factories! 17:24 < kanzure> sheena: also pick somewhere with lots of dog people? 17:24 <@jrayhawk> structure collapses still happen in the world, we need to develop carbon fiber factories! 17:24 < sheena> obviously 17:24 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 17:25 <@jrayhawk> people still die of exposure, we need to develop artifical mink coats! 17:25 < kanzure> for your dog brain surgery, would you be willing to do it in the US? opens up your options for who 17:26 -!- clock [~clock@84-72-11-5.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:27 < clock> hi all 17:27 <@fenn> hello we are talking about solar water disinfection 17:27 < kanzure> you may be interested in the backlog about solar water phased arrays http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-15.log 17:28 < kanzure> fenn, langton labs should rename their burner group from phage to phase 17:28 < clock> fenn, yes related topic to my http://ronja.twibright.com/distillcooker/ :) 17:28 <@fenn> kanzure: naw, the whole point is it's a mind virus 17:28 < kanzure> see, i always thought twibright.com was that other guy that was in here 17:29 <@fenn> clock``? :P 17:29 < kanzure> that's the guy! 17:29 < kanzure> clock: https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad 17:30 <@fenn> jrayhawk: i wish there were talented people who actually thought like that 17:30 <@jrayhawk> it's true, i could use a mink coat 17:31 <@fenn> pretty sure "quorn" comes close to a portable soylent factory 17:31 <@fenn> ammonia + molasses in, high quality protein out 17:31 <@fenn> those stupid vegans messed it all up though 17:32 <@jrayhawk> "after changing production methods to ensure that only free-range eggs were used, the Vegetarian Society gave the product a seal of approval." 17:32 <@jrayhawk> well, egg-based is less horrifying than i was expecting 17:32 <@jrayhawk> not sure how vegans could get involved with that, though 17:32 <@fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn#Controversy 17:33 <@fenn> basically it was threatening gardenburger's profits, so the hired CSPI as thugs to "take em out" 17:33 <@fenn> hey the patent is expired 17:33 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@37-48-35-24.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: UAA] 17:38 < kanzure> hrm what was wrong with lolcad, again? 17:38 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad/tree/nurbs.py 17:38 <@fenn> the maintainer abandoned it 17:39 <@fenn> what is lolcad 17:39 < kanzure> lolcad is many things, but part of it was my silly idea of implementing step compatibility without ISO EXPRESS 17:39 < kanzure> and without step class library 17:39 <@fenn> huh cgit doesn't parse README.mdwn? 17:40 < kanzure> but the other aspect was pure python nurbs curves and surfaces (?) 17:40 <@fenn> well that sounds okay 17:40 < kanzure> i see arc, circle, polyline, NurbsSurface 17:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad/tree/nurbs.py#n220 17:41 < clock> fenn, I think its unfair to call vegans stupid 17:41 < kanzure> part of the problem was that i was implementing something i didn't completely comprehend 17:41 <@fenn> heh clock i used to be a vegan and canvassed for CSPI 17:42 < clock> I don't think being a vegan is a good idea, but that doesn't mean the people are stupid 17:42 < clock> and I am not vegan :) 17:42 < clock> neither a vegetarian :) 17:42 < kanzure> bad ideas are wrong 17:43 <@fenn> wrong ideas are bad!! 17:43 <@fenn> hey people can eat whatever they want 17:43 < kanzure> that doesn't make it a good idea 17:43 <@ParahSailin> fenn: how did you de-vegan? 17:43 <@fenn> what am i trying to say. i want quorn to exist and be cheap and accessible and safe 17:43 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7752537 17:43 < yoleaux> Show HN: Take It Apart 17:43 < kanzure> i think this is nmz787's thing 17:44 <@fenn> i want to be able to air-drop a quorn factory into a harsh and unforgiving desert, and have it bake curious meat patties 17:44 <@fenn> i recognize that space colonies probably will not have space for cows or salmon 17:44 <@fenn> so the sooner we learn to live healthy the more easy it will be to transition to a space based lifestyle 17:44 <@fenn> other people have other motivations for their vegan diet 17:44 < cluckj> I want a space-based lifestyle 17:45 <@fenn> uh "live healthy on a synthetic diet" i mean 17:45 < cluckj> o 17:45 <@fenn> and yes "space based lifestyle" means you live in outer space 17:45 < cluckj> yes 17:46 <@fenn> but where's the sense in suing to death the greatest invention in nutrition in decades? 17:46 < clock> I actually ate quorn 17:47 < clock> but then it wasn't available in my grocery anymore so now I eat something similar but its made conventionally out of vegetables or whatever 17:47 < clock> and I like the taste more 17:48 <@fenn> ParahSailin: first it was realizing that an entire gallon of ice cream cost less than a bag of vegan chocolate chips 17:48 -!- kardan [~kardan@2001:470:75b7:1049:a2f3:c1ff:fe1b:56e9] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:49 < cluckj> animal-produced fats are pretty great 17:49 <@ParahSailin> so the economics of using animals? 17:50 <@fenn> ParahSailin: then it was "the anti-aging zone" by barry sears (zone diet) and carolyn ray (a person on sifter) talking about fish oil and the difference in difficulty of getting protein RDA on a vegan diet vs omnivorous diet 17:51 <@fenn> basically a quantitative argument 17:51 <@fenn> visualizing the amount of beans you need vs meat for 50 grams of protein 17:52 < clock> fenn, what means "a person on sifter"? :) is sifter some kind of drug? :) 17:52 <@fenn> sifter is an "atheist church" i guess, just a group of people trying to find the truth 17:52 <@jrayhawk> ha ha oh barry "arachidonic acid is a toxin" sears 17:52 < clock> fenn, what animal fat cheap? what I heard animals are like energy guzzlers when it comes to efficiency of production 17:52 < cluckj> soy protein is pretty available 17:52 <@fenn> jrayhawk: that's not what he says if you read the book 17:52 <@jrayhawk> that's what the says to the media 17:52 <@ParahSailin> animals can yield food off of non-arable land 17:52 <@fenn> jrayhawk: well, it's true in people who eat an inflammatory diet :\ 17:53 <@fenn> which is most people 17:53 <@jrayhawk> yeah, lots of things are pathological in the context of other pathologies 17:54 < clock> actually I go to gym so I made calculations which protein is the cheapest for me to eat 17:54 < clock> and its "magerquark" 17:54 <@fenn> well right now i have sitting on the counter: a huge bok choy plant, a can of chub mackerel, some kumquats, garlic, and barbecue sauce 17:54 < clock> a low-fat quark, a type of fresh dairy product 17:54 <@jrayhawk> including, but not limited to, methionine, vitamin a, vitamin d, DHA, AA, carbohydrates, fat, protein 17:54 < clock> which is illogical because thats so expensive to produce 17:54 < clock> tofu is much more expensive 17:54 <@jrayhawk> calling these things "toxic" is gibbering idiocu 17:55 <@jrayhawk> s/idiocu/idiocy/ 17:55 <@fenn> vitamin A will kill you regardless of your diet 17:55 < clock> you know that water is highly toxic it has therapeutic index only 1? 17:55 <@jrayhawk> No, vitamin A toxicity is mediated by vitamin D levels. 17:55 < clock> A daily dosis - 3.2 L accoridng to WHO - can kill you if drank at once 17:56 < clock> so people should go to bathroom probably in hazmat suits 17:56 <@fenn> .d quark 17:56 < yoleaux> quark¹ (/kwɑːk, kwɔːk/): n. Any of a number of subatomic particles carrying a fractional electric charge, postulated as building blocks of the hadrons. Quarks have not been directly observed but theoretical predictions … — http://is.gd/vZccdJ 17:56 <@fenn> .wik magerquark 17:56 < yoleaux> "Quark is a type of fresh dairy product. It is made by warming soured milk until the desired degree of coagulation (denaturation) of milk proteins is met, and then strained." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark_(dairy_product) 17:56 <@jrayhawk> It's one of those things that we've RCT'd with pathological norms. 17:56 <@ParahSailin> even the eskimos cannot eat the liver of the animals there 17:56 <@jrayhawk> Eskimos, notably, have really shitty vitamin D status. 17:57 <@ParahSailin> and they throw it away so it doesnt poison their dogs either 17:57 <@jrayhawk> Though yeah, polar bear livers are pretty extreme. 17:57 <@fenn> i'd expect eskimos to have okay vitamin D status from all the fish 17:58 < clock> couldnt eskimos chop the livers and sell them over a webshop? 17:58 <@fenn> FISH,HALIBUT,GREENLAND,RAW 85.0 g 23.3 mcg 17:58 < clock> as a vitamin supplement? 17:59 <@fenn> FISH,SALMON,SOCKEYE,COOKED,DRY HEAT 85.0 g 19.8 mcg 17:59 < clock> sounds like the USDA database? 17:59 <@jrayhawk> So, that's 400-600 IU per-fish? 17:59 <@jrayhawk> or is it per-serving 17:59 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@113-234-15.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:00 < clock> I had to scan the USDA database because my machine produces distilled water and people are scared of it 18:00 < clock> telling myths like its unhealthy to drink etc. 18:00 <@jrayhawk> oh, 1 mcg is 40IU 18:00 <@jrayhawk> durrr 18:00 < clock> so I had to figure out how much Ca and Mg reduction you get from it and which is the cheapest food to replace that 18:00 <@fenn> one serving of fish is about 1000 IU 18:00 < clock> and then calculate that into the cost of operation 18:00 <@jrayhawk> so 800-1000 18:01 <@fenn> also i'd expect it to vary a lot 18:01 <@fenn> i just pulled the top "D2+D3 per serving" from USDA 18:01 < clock> so if you want to calculate your Ca and Mg I can give you reference to pages in the document with a comprehensive table :) 18:01 * clock loves fenn for using the USDA 18:02 < sheena> clock: what machine? 18:02 < clock> sheena, http://ronja.twibright.com/distillcooker/ 18:02 <@fenn> clock: most people are super way under their RDA for magnesium regardless of the water they drink 18:02 < clock> fenn, yep and you know what is the cheapest source of Mg in Switzerland and what in Cambodia? 18:02 <@fenn> i use nut-nutrition to look up data 18:03 <@jrayhawk> huh http://www.circumpolarhealthjournal.net/index.php/ijch/article/view/18001/html 18:03 <@fenn> hmm cheapest source... magnesium sulfate probably. but bioavailable, spinach? 18:03 <@fenn> oats? 18:03 < clock> Switzerland: supplements 18:03 <@fenn> sea salt without the sodium chloride? 18:03 < clock> Cambodia: bananas 18:04 < clock> Switzerland except supplements: peants 18:04 < clock> peanuts 18:04 <@fenn> peanuts contain phytic acid so you'll have to factor that in 18:04 < clock> PEANUTS, SALTED, ROASTED; PACKAGED, PRINTED WITH FANCY COLOURS 18:04 <@fenn> also peanuts have lots of omega-6 so i don't feel comfortable telling people "just eat lots and lots of peanuts every day forever" 18:04 < clock> fenn, why factor phytic acid? is something I can overdose? 18:05 <@fenn> no, it just reduces the amount of magnesium absorbed 18:05 < clock> oh :( 18:05 < clock> fortunately none of my price calculation was based on peanuts 18:05 < clock> so I don't have to change my document now :) 18:05 <@jrayhawk> Plants generally store minerals bound to phytate and humans are sorta bad at phytase expression. 18:05 < clock> I ate a bag of peanuts at once once 18:05 <@fenn> factual accuracy? what's that? 18:05 < clock> am I going to pop? 18:05 <@jrayhawk> Some folks have better gut flora for it than others. 18:06 < cluckj> all plants are trying to kill us 18:06 <@jrayhawk> Phytate breakdown can be done with arduous food preparation protocols. 18:06 < clock> jrayhawk, what do these protocols approximately involve? 18:07 < clock> phytic acid: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Phytic_acid.svg/300px-Phytic_acid.svg.png 18:07 <@jrayhawk> for nuts, some combination of soaking, drying, and roasting, the order of which i do not remember 18:07 <@jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/search?q=phytate+nuts+roast+dry+soak 18:07 < clock> If I didn't know it is a real substance I would think that is a drawing of a chemist on LSD 18:08 < clock> "to a lesser extent, also macro minerals such as calcium and magnesium; " (phytic acid wikipedia) 18:08 <@jrayhawk> http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/living-with-phytic-acid/ 18:11 <@ParahSailin> are those gmo pigs with phytase on the market yet? 18:11 <@jrayhawk> whoa, hadn't heard of those 18:11 <@jrayhawk> that's a fascinating idea 18:11 < sheena> can i make a goat that makes cows' milk so i dont have to deal with the idiocy that is the gov't mandated cows milk sale shit? 18:11 <@jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enviropig 18:12 <@jrayhawk> what's wrong with goat milk 18:12 < sheena> its not very delicious? 18:13 <@jrayhawk> lies 18:13 <@ParahSailin> you are hurting my goats' feelings 18:13 < sheena> lol 18:13 < sheena> ok it doesnt taste LIKE cow's milk? 18:13 < sheena> so if one wants to drink cows milk 18:13 < sheena> goats milk is a poor substitute? 18:13 < sheena> also if i mix vinegar and bleach, will i die? 18:14 <@ParahSailin> apologize to little julia and caprica https://plus.google.com/photos/108592484668460515128/albums/5838517469299267185?authkey=CITGk5Cfu5DdrQE 18:14 < clock> sheena, if you do it it will smell like an attack of million swimming pools in your bathroom 18:14 < clock> then you probably realize you may get seriously hurt 18:15 < clock> so you will hold your breath, run to the windows, open them all, get out of your apartment, and then resume breathing 18:15 < sheena> why does the internet tell you to put vinegar on bleach to neutralize it? 18:16 <@jrayhawk> well, i guess in the sense that a match will neutralize dynamite pretty fast 18:16 < clock> mixing vinegar and bleach will neutralize you ;-) 18:17 <@ParahSailin> http://www.solvaychemicals.com/Chemicals%20Literature%20Documents/Chlorinated_inorganics/PCH-1400-0001-W-EN_WW_.pdf 18:17 < cluckj> lol 18:17 < cluckj> it depends how much you mix 18:17 < sheena> ParahSailin: you milk those goats? 18:17 <@ParahSailin> nah, city made me give them away :( 18:18 < clock> vinegar has pH 2 18:18 < clock> thats a perfect match to get the chlorine out :) 18:19 < clock> my eyes are burning when I just talk about it :) 18:19 <@fenn> mixing vinegar and bleach will do nothing 18:19 < clock> oh and the inside of my nose too :) 18:19 <@fenn> you will have some vinegar mixed with bleach 18:19 <@ParahSailin> it would take a lot of vinegar to take it to ph 2 18:19 < sheena> im bleaching a carpet 18:19 < sheena> its working well for its purpose, but i'm concerned the smell may not dissipate quickly enough for my comfort 18:20 < clock> sheena, I am concerned the organics of the dirt is actually turned into chloramines 18:20 <@fenn> so, it's worth noting that vinegar also smells 18:21 <@fenn> do you have a shopvac or some kind of water resistant vacuum 18:21 < apex> cut it with hydrogen peroxide 18:21 < clock> the more chemicals you mix, the better 18:21 < apex> to neutralize the smell 18:21 <@fenn> apex: that doesn't make any sense either 18:22 <@fenn> my recommendation: put water on it, remove the water+bleach somehow 18:22 < clock> has anyone seriously scientifically investigated 18:22 < clock> what all compounds get created when you mix all existing household chemicals together? 18:22 < cluckj> death 18:22 < apex> it makes meth 18:22 < apex> im p shure 18:22 < sheena> fenn: ideal, but no. could like, towel it all up as best i could, but icky. it'll disspate eventually. if i could get sunshine in there.... 18:23 <@jrayhawk> Cream of Anarchists Cookbook 18:23 <@fenn> "I got hot water and filled my carpet cleaner almost to the top, then added half of a small bottle of vinegar and cleaned the carpet. It completely took the bleach smell away instantly." the vinegar is added to the water to prevent mold from growing in the carpet 18:23 < apex> yes 18:23 < clock> bleach creates so called "chlorination byproducts" 18:23 < clock> I had to accidentally study it for my machine again 18:24 <@fenn> "the anarchist gourmet" 18:24 < apex> and then use baking soda to cut the vinager 18:24 < clock> so you can read their list on... 18:24 < kanzure> clock: does this page speak to you in any meaningful way http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/heuristics 18:24 < sheena> well, i KNOW the chlorine smell will dissipate. the poop smell that it has replaced wouldn't have. so.. win? 18:26 < clock> http://ronja.twibright.com/distillcooker/distillcooker_preview.pdf page 9 18:26 < clock> sheena, I think chlorine and chloramines smell similar, but I think the latter are more nasty 18:27 < clock> sheena, how large areas of carpet are you treating and can you put the whole carpet outside? 18:27 < sheena> large. no. 18:27 < clock> oh I would be careful then 18:27 < clock> especially when you say poop, that sounds like ammonia or urea containing substance 18:27 <@jrayhawk> while we're discussing funding twibright, who do i have to throw money at to get links-hacked, links2, and elinks to merge 18:28 < clock> jrayhawk, I don't think thats possible 18:28 < sheena> that part doesnt worry me so much, clock. i've used bleach on similar stains before lots 18:28 <@jrayhawk> damnation 18:28 < clock> jrayhawk, or it would be rather prohibitively expensive 18:29 < clock> jrayhawk, but you may write to Mikulas Patocka mikulas@artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz hes the head of Links to ask more detail about the possibility 18:31 < clock> sheena, can you sprinkle the carpet with activated charcoal and cover with plastic foil? 18:31 < clock> sheena, according to my state of knowledge, that should absorb the yummies emitted by the carpet 18:31 < sheena> nope. at this point, i'll just wait until tonight (its sprayed... fans and window open) and close up my end of the house away from it for sleeping if needed 18:31 < sheena> if its still bad in the morning, i'll just close the bedroom door and not open it for 4 days 18:32 < sheena> that ought to do ti 18:32 < clock> sheena, oh if you can leave windows open and isolate rest of house I think thats perfectly fine 18:32 < sheena> was juste hoping to cheat and hurry things along 18:32 < clock> sheena, I think if it was chlorine emitted you could absorb it into baking soda 18:32 < clock> but I believe its rather chloramines 18:33 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:33 < clock> I know bleach starts smelling disproportionately when it gets into contact with the actual dirt I bleach 18:33 < apex> perxyde 18:33 < sheena> thats interesting clock 18:33 < clock> apex, whats the rationale for peroxide? 18:33 < sheena> the chloramine is more toxic? or just more icky? 18:33 < apex> it neutralises the belach when your done with it 18:33 < clock> sheena, I think more toxic to breath 18:33 < clock> however for eating its harmless because its destroyed by stomach acid 18:34 < sheena> will try not to breathe it in high concentrations 18:34 < sheena> low concentrations (ie: whats coming out the window outside where my dogs are hanging out) wont be too bad? 18:34 < clock> apex, how come peroxide neutralizes bleach? both are oxidizers afaik. Some different mechanism? 18:34 -!- Adifex|zzz is now known as Adifex 18:36 < clock> sheena, i suspect they may be carcinogenic you would have to google it up 18:37 < sheena> poop 18:37 < sheena> well if im dead tomorrow 18:37 < sheena> you'll know why 18:38 < clock> you may actually live too much 18:38 < clock> some parts of you may start living too vigorously 18:38 < sheena> :P 18:39 <@fenn> huh i guess peroxide + bleach = water + oxygen + salt 18:39 < sheena> what is bleach chemically? 18:39 < sheena> its not HCl, right? 18:39 <@fenn> sodium hypochlorite 18:39 < clock> hypnochlorite 18:39 < clock> hypnotizes you 18:39 <@ParahSailin> peroxide steals electron from chlorine 18:40 <@fenn> apparently the peroxide reaction also makes chlorine as a byproduct (side reaction yielding sodium hydroxide) 18:41 < clock> sheena, you just apply the bleach but not remove it in any way e.g. by washing with plenty of water? 18:42 < clock> sheena, how did the poop smell? Like pis or like dead bodies? 18:43 <@ParahSailin> ClO− + H2O + 2e− → Cl− + 2OH- +0.89; 2 H2O2(aq)arrow.gif (874 bytes)2 H2O(l) + O2(aq) +1.09 18:43 <@fenn> clock "just curious" haha 18:43 < clock> fenn, no, I might suggest next time use just vinegar and not create such complicated carpet 18:44 < sheena> like dogs who ate too many rotten eggs then shit all over the carpet, mostly 18:44 <@ParahSailin> steam cleaner 18:44 <@fenn> just get rid of the carpet, you'll enjoy life much more not having to deal with it 18:44 < sheena> fenn: yes, that will be happening int he next month or so, this is just a stopgap 18:45 < sheena> clock: no, dont remove the bleach.. it evaporates over time, like it does from swimming pools.. or so i've always been told/believed 18:45 < sheena> i tried vinegar first. blah 18:45 < clock> sheena, didn't help? 18:45 < sheena> extremely insufficient 18:45 < sheena> i'd have needed gallons 18:45 < sheena> and even then maybe not 18:45 < sheena> bleach is stronger 18:45 <@fenn> gamma radiation? 18:46 <@fenn> ion bombardment 18:46 <@fenn> nuke it from orbit 18:46 < clock> sheena, oh in that case, vinegar surely wouldn't help :) 18:46 < clock> sheena, you see, fenn is suggesting you a plenty of very practical opportunities 18:47 < sheena> lol 18:47 < clock> like everybody has some nukes in orbit in his household 18:47 <@ParahSailin> you know, oxyclean has no odor 18:47 < sheena> i know 18:47 < sheena> but im in buttfuck nowhere 18:47 < sheena> and i didnt want to drive to the store 18:47 < kanzure> you can cover the existing carpet with more carpet, until you remove both carpets 18:47 < sheena> so 18:47 <@fenn> plus oxyclean doubles as circuit board etchant 18:47 < sheena> kanzure: that wont solve the odour problem 18:48 < clock> fenn, thanks, I will try next time :) 18:48 < clock> sheena, sounds like your dog is good at fermenting stuff? 18:48 <@ParahSailin> she has a puppy mill 18:49 < clock> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Puppy_mill02.jpg 18:49 <@fenn> how do you grind up the teeth into powder 18:50 < sheena> ugh. he got into like 2 dozen really old eggs 18:50 < sheena> they were being laid where ididnt know they were there 18:50 < sheena> and thten he had the diarrhea 18:50 < kanzure> is that enough to teach him to avoid eggs? 18:51 < sheena> nope 18:51 < sheena> overlal thats not a bad thing tho 18:51 < sheena> teaches ME to find them before they rot 18:51 < sheena> ugh 18:51 <@ParahSailin> this is where the electroshock comes in? 18:51 < kanzure> ParahSailin: your set of beliefs about her dog training business is very perplexing 18:51 < kanzure> in your mind, she's running a puppy mill that uses negative reinforcement via electrocution? 18:52 <@ParahSailin> the puppy mill was to breed compliant ones? 18:53 < sheena> someone else wanted to breed compliant dogs 18:53 * clock thinks 2 dozen really old eggs would be a good material for a "is it a good idea to distill this?" show which his users will probably create after the distiller design is released 18:53 < sheena> with a username beginning with E? 18:53 <@fenn> does your distiller remove H2S? 18:53 < sheena> talking, compliant, floppy eared dogs? 18:53 <@fenn> ebowden 18:54 < sheena> yeah 18:54 < sheena> that one 18:54 < clock> fenn, yes it does 18:55 <@ParahSailin> kanzure: sorry, i am not used to thinking white hat science 18:56 <@fenn> red hat science, for enterprise vampire sadists 18:57 <@fenn> if you inject blood from a young dog into an old dog, does it reverse aging? (come on people what am i paying you for) 18:58 < kanzure> hplusroadmap profits are up 4000% 18:58 <@fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bathory#Folklore_and_popular_culture 18:59 < clock> fenn, haha I actually don't know :) 18:59 <@ParahSailin> no, you have to hook the young dog up to the old dog with catheters 18:59 <@ParahSailin> you cant just inject blood 18:59 < catern> they also providing hosting and guidance for the Fedora Science project for hobbyist atheists, who are basically scientists right 18:59 < kanzure> ParahSailin: deep brain stimulation is white hat science? 19:00 < kanzure> i really ought to put blackhatbio.com to better use 19:00 <@fenn> ParahSailin: that's what i thought until a week or so ago 19:00 < kanzure> maybe i'll write a satirical "military blackhat bio manifesto" text and slap it up there 19:00 < clock> (most famously the tale that she bathed in the blood of virgins to retain her youth) 19:01 <@ParahSailin> its white hat science unless it involves dangerous shortcuts 19:01 < clock> Well old rich Swiss seem to think that having everyday sex with a young Thai reverses aging 19:01 <@fenn> isn't "deep brain stimulation" basically a dangerout short circuit 19:01 < QuantumG> clock: couldn't hurt 19:01 < kanzure> i think only the initial implantation is dangerous, it depends on whether you have to expose it through skin 19:01 <@fenn> hm. the mackerel is calling 19:02 < kanzure> i forget, are we definitely not using through-skin interfaces in everything in the future? 19:02 < kanzure> that's medically stupid, right? 19:02 < sheena> bluetooth? 19:02 <@fenn> antler horns can make a nice transdermal port 19:02 < kanzure> there are many ways to interface with devices under the skin 19:02 < kanzure> for power transfer, my favorite is inductive coupling 19:03 < clock> you know why human brain runs at such tiny voltages like 70mV 19:03 <@fenn> skin grows right up to the edges of the horn and stops, and it's infection-proof 19:03 < clock> and not lik 1V common in today processors? 19:03 <@fenn> only problem is humans don't have antlers :\ 19:03 < clock> because 19:03 < kanzure> how are antlers infection proof? 19:03 < clock> the total capacitance of all brain neurons is like 180 mF 19:03 <@fenn> they're solid bone with no blood vessels 19:03 < kanzure> but the skin interface? 19:04 <@fenn> uh i don't have more details at hand 19:04 < clock> charging and discharging all this capacitance at a higher voltage, even considering that only a portion of neurons fires, would dissipate disproportionate amount of heat 19:04 < kanzure> sheena: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_power 19:04 < kanzure> clock: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Electrical%20stimulation%20of%20the%20human%20brain:%20perceptual%20and%20behavioral%20phenomena%20reported%20in%20the%20old%20and%20new%20literature.pdf 19:04 <@fenn> brain dissipates 25W anyway, quite a lot 19:05 < clock> well its a portable supercomputer 19:05 < clock> for a supercomputer I think 25W is damn little 19:05 <@fenn> no it's not 19:05 < kanzure> clock seems like the type that would prefer animaltronics 19:05 <@fenn> well anyway. bigger reason is metabolic energy efficiency, you don't have to eat so much 19:05 < clock> fenn, in my opinion it is a portable supercomputer 19:06 <@fenn> the brain does a lot of "something" but whatever that "something" is, it's not computation 19:06 < kanzure> there is some computation involved in a few places 19:06 < sheena> i just want to reward my dog with a remote control button wherever he's standing 19:06 < clock> I feel disrespected when I tell you that in my opinion it is a portable supercomputer, and you say " the brain does a lot of "something" but whatever that "something" is, it's not computation" 19:07 < kanzure> sheena, it would probably be something that involves strapping the dog with a device on the outside that is bluetooth-compatible, and then the bluetooth thing would communicate with your phone 19:07 <@fenn> there have been many efforts to replicate brain function with supercomputers, all of which have failed 19:07 <@fenn> we can talk about the brain emulation roadmap if you like 19:07 < kanzure> the bluetooth device would be placed near the device that is implanted under the skin; and that device would have a looong wire to the electrode in the brain 19:08 < clock> I feel disrespected when you say "there have been many efforts to replicate brain function with supercomputers, all of which have failed", and I actually did such an attempt, and it was successful 19:08 < kanzure> are you interested in respect, or are you interested in making stuff 19:08 < QuantumG> kanzure: I typically just say "good boy" 19:08 < clock> fenn, I believe brain does computation, a damn clever one 19:08 < clock> fenn, with exception of your brain of course, which just does fine particle filtering of blood 19:08 < kanzure> yes it's a giant chromatography machine 19:09 <@fenn> there is a trend in popular science to compare the latest poorly understood scientific phenomenon (quantum physics, neuroscience, biology) with the latest technology of the time (clockwork, computers, markets) 19:09 < QuantumG> most everything is computation 19:09 < kanzure> "the brain is like a giant cell phone" 19:09 < QuantumG> protein folding, computation 19:09 <@fenn> one is one because everything is everything if you throw out the units 19:10 < QuantumG> saying the brain does computation is like saying wind does dynamics 19:10 < kanzure> QuantumG: elaborate? 19:10 < clock> fenn, neuroscience is not a phenomenon, its a science 19:10 <@fenn> clock: please tell us more about your brain emulation software (?) 19:11 < clock> fenn, I tried to program a PC prgram that would emulate the visual cortex 19:11 <@fenn> okay 19:12 <@fenn> was this based on "on intelligence" by jef hawkins? 19:12 < kanzure> the visual cortex is the most studied; there's tons of emulators that do an okay job 19:12 < clock> and I realized, that - in my opinion - brain is a damn cleverly designed computer, much more elegant than the von neumann architecture 19:12 < clock> fenn, no it wasnt because I don't even know about ""on intelligence" by jef hawkins" 19:12 < clock> fenn, but i will google it now sounds interesting 19:13 < kanzure> uh, and so that you don't go off on a wild goose chase, also consider biologically accurate emulations 19:13 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/markram-2006/ 19:13 <@fenn> dharmendra modha is doing some stuff.. i should look into that some time 19:14 < clock> oh on intelligence sounds to me like it might be a wishwash 19:14 <@fenn> absolutely not biologically accurate at all 19:14 < clock> the principles I realized don't depend on how the actual firing is encoded 19:14 <@fenn> it's not about firing really 19:15 <@fenn> not any more than an FPGA is about the signals.. hm 19:15 < kanzure> brain matter is mostly dendrites 19:15 < clock> fenn, if you really want to understand how the brain works 19:15 < clock> I suggest you don't study the brain at all 19:15 < clock> take the input data 19:15 < clock> holiday pictures 19:16 < clock> everyday sounds 19:16 < clock> and think "how would I design a machine that understands these data"? 19:16 < kanzure> no, we have enough people not looking at the brain 19:16 < clock> thats what I did when I couldn't find scientific articles on how some parts of the cortex are wired 19:16 < clock> or often, scientists find out, that everything is wired with everything, correlated with everything, and statistically insignificant 19:17 < clock> they present a meticulously described, methodically absolutely immaculately measured, data garbage 19:17 <@ParahSailin> noam chomsky gave a lecture similar to that 19:17 < clock> which may be great to get citations in some journal 19:17 < clock> but not when you are a hobbyist trying to build a brain with crude knowledge on your desktop 19:18 < clock> ParahSailin, noam chomsky lecture similar to what? 19:18 <@ParahSailin> what you are saying right now 19:18 < clock> Actually I was surprised to realize 19:18 < clock> that the structure of primary visual cortex pops out from a single holiday photo 19:18 < clock> you don't need a training set of 100 or 1000 of them 19:18 < clock> you need a single holiday photo 19:19 < clock> Prdo you have some name or reference to that lecture? 19:19 < clock> I like Chomsky very much but hes so old now he would need some rejuvenation 19:19 < clock> which is the topic of this channel am I right? 19:20 <@ParahSailin> http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/11/noam-chomsky-on-where-artificial-intelligence-went-wrong/261637/ 19:20 < clock> by the way 19:20 < clock> the things that go on in the brain aren't much groundbreaking 19:21 < clock> the idea is to make a number of simple steps, chained together 19:23 < clock> Or even a simple way how to explain 19:23 < clock> Imagine you are a cell in the retina 19:23 < clock> All your life all you know are neural impulses 19:24 < clock> sometimes they come, and you relay them 19:24 < clock> sometimes they don't, and you don't 19:24 < clock> you don't have any sidewards connection 19:24 < clock> just one input and one input 19:24 < clock> thats all your boring mental life 19:24 < clock> and now I do an interview with you 19:24 < clock> I know you must be a damn specialist on relaying single channel retinal information 19:24 < clock> What will you tell me about your life? About your work? 19:25 < clock> you know nothing 19:25 < clock> you don't know if the data that pass through you are red, green or blue 19:26 < clock> you don't know that there are other retinal cells 19:26 < clock> you could never compare your data with them 19:26 < clock> what will you tell me? 19:36 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:40 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-196-32-32.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-211-62-84.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:48 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:55 <@fenn> yeah the kumquats are a good addition to the mackerel and bok choy 19:59 <@fenn> clock: another constraint to the neuron problem is that everything is hot and there are molecules flying around everywhere so there is a lot of noise in the system 20:00 < clock> fenn, yes the signals are noisy 20:00 <@ParahSailin> bayesian blocks is a pretty sweet algorithm 20:00 <@fenn> iirc you get better performance out of deep belief networks if you restrict the input to some small fraction of the data per time slice 20:01 <@fenn> stochastic signaling ends up working better in this environment and it prevents over-fitting the model to the data 20:03 < clock> I think because the brain had to evolve incrementally from something very simple 20:03 < clock> simple models were tried the first 20:04 < clock> so if they worked they were adopted 20:04 < delinquentme> So one thing thats kind of crapping on my thought process *STILL* with biology/ chemistry is the volume of interactions we're talking 20:04 < clock> and if more complicated models overfit and disturb the survivability, they die out, the better :) 20:04 < delinquentme> Say I get a purified sample at .98 ... Theres still crap in there that could be nearly anything 20:04 < clock> delinquentme, like the neural interactions? 20:05 < cluckj> delinquentme, nearly anything isn't as anything as it sounds 20:06 < clock> I get an impression many people overemphasize intelligence 20:06 < cluckj> for particular extraction processes, you pull things with similar chemical properties out 20:06 < clock> almost putting it into a some kind of mystical cosmical position, something which has to be ultimately cracked to get an infinite enlightement 20:06 < clock> I believe this: 20:06 < clock> 1) Intelligence is a tool for survival 20:07 < clock> 2) its a tool specific to primates, and requested by the specific living environment 20:07 < cluckj> imagine how many proto-sapiens had to die to make you so smart 20:07 < clock> 3) The ultimate "goal" (if it can be called like that at all, because I believe that's an antropomorphisation) is not intelligence, but survival 20:07 < delinquentme> clock, you're basically a sentient AI with a connection to IRC i think 20:08 < delinquentme> One hell of a near-monologue 20:08 < clock> 4) its survival, because those, who happen to be better at survival, surpriuse surprise - survive better and tend to accumulate in the environment! 20:08 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, http://space.mit.edu/cxc/analysis/SITAR/bb_experiment.html 20:08 < clock> delinquentme, I feel disrespected and insulted when you say "you're basically a sentient AI with a connection to IRC i think" 20:09 <@ParahSailin> i mean, yeah, im familiar with bayesian blocks, otherwise i would not have mentioned the subject 20:09 < clock> and disrespected and unfairly criticized when you say "One hell of a near-monologue" 20:09 <@ParahSailin> but i respect the attempt 20:10 <@ParahSailin> right now im using bblocks to cluster stuff that isnt a time series and its pretty nice 20:12 < delinquentme> clock, No offense intended 20:12 < delinquentme> +1 for thinking 20:12 < cluckj> lol 20:14 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:17 <@fenn> clock: that's a very practical way to look at things, something that's all too rare in AI circles 20:17 <@fenn> we tend to poo-pooh "intelligence" stuff because it's not even wrong most of the time 20:18 < clock> fenn, thanks 20:18 <@fenn> that said, it's hard to find good quantitative metrics of cognitive function 20:18 <@fenn> seth roberts used balancing as a metric (standing upright) 20:18 < clock> philosophres have this "hard problem of consciousness" or what its called 20:19 < clock> there is some Australian Philosopher I forgot the name 20:19 < clock> debating that we may never find the answer etc. 20:19 < clock> I wrote him an e-mail with algorithm to find the answer 20:19 < clock> 1) simulate brains of all philosophers on Earth 20:20 <@fenn> is that the end of the algorithm? 20:20 < clock> 2) Find such textual or graphic input, which, when presented, ellicits a response "wow! oh gog! thats ingenious! Yes, that's the true solution to the hard problem of consciousness" 20:20 <@fenn> 42 etc 20:20 < clock> All you need, is 1) abaility to simulate brain, 2) enough computational power to try out large number of various inputs 20:21 < clock> oh gog -> oh god 20:21 < clock> because - sorry for capitalization--- 20:21 < clock> THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE GUY FUCKING WANTS! 20:21 <@fenn> .wik hard problem of consciousness 20:21 < yoleaux> "The hard problem of consciousness is the problem of explaining how and why we have qualia or phenomenal experiences — how sensations acquire characteristics, such as colours and tastes.David Chalmers, who introduced the term "hard problem" of consciousness, contrasts this with the "easy problems" of explaining the ability to discriminate, …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness 20:21 < cluckj> why waste the electricity on modeling philosopher brains 20:22 < cluckj> I mean besides schadenfreude 20:22 <@fenn> seems like a reasonable use of electricity 20:22 < clock> cluckj, to satisfy the Australian's need for solution of hard problem of consciousness 20:22 <@fenn> beats arguing about it for eternity 20:22 < clock> or for sake he can simulate his own brain 20:22 < cluckj> isn't that the point, tho? 20:23 < clock> and find out which "solution" would satisfy him 20:23 < clock> and then, finally, present it to himself 20:23 <@fenn> .wik stones of significance 20:23 < yoleaux> "The Black Stone (Arabic: الحجر الأسود‎ al-Ḥajar al-Aswad) is the eastern cornerstone of the Kaaba, the ancient stone building toward which Muslims pray, in the center of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. It is revered by Muslims as an Islamic relic which, according to Muslim tradition, dates back to the time of Adam and Eve." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone 20:23 <@fenn> ah dammit 20:24 < clock> I think its time that philosophers finally realize, that 20:24 < clock> THEY EXIST 20:24 <@fenn> google's link munging is interfering with my literary vicarious piracy 20:24 < clock> that means, they are real beinds, og bones, flesh and brains, and their thoughts are impulses running in their heads 20:25 < clock> and stop treating them as abstract ephemeral entities 20:25 < clock> and start treating them as people 20:26 <@fenn> localhost to the rescue: http://fennetic.net/irc/david_brin_-_stones_of_significance.pdf 20:29 <@fenn> unfortunately as soon as you start saying "give beings rights and responsibilities according to their capability" people freak out and think you're going to start murdering their babies 20:29 <@fenn> or that it's some kind of racist plot to exterminate 20:30 < cluckj> awesome 20:30 <@fenn> we had some guy come in here who kept saying how he hated peter singer "because i love my brother" 20:31 < clock> fenn, why should it mean murdering their babies I don't see the implication? 20:31 < cluckj> that poor guy 20:31 < cluckj> letting philosophers get him down :( 20:32 <@fenn> if that didn't make sense it's because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer#Abortion.2C_euthanasia_and_infanticide 20:34 -!- clock [~clock@84-72-11-5.dclient.hispeed.ch] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 20:34 < cluckj> fenn, I think that it also implies taking rights and responsibilities away from *people* according to their abilities 20:34 < cluckj> (why people freak out) 20:35 <@fenn> well would you let a 16 year old vote? a 5 year old? an embryo? 20:36 <@fenn> the line has to be somewhere 20:36 <@fenn> i guess you could do a "three fifths compromise" 20:36 < cluckj> that sounds like a good plan 20:37 -!- clock [~clock@84-72-11-5.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:37 <@fenn> i'm not really a fan of voting in general 20:37 < clock> I looked at the page with Singer and frankly I don't understand it at all because "being holding a preference" sounds so vague to me that virtually anything could fit it 20:37 < cluckj> voting is a bad example too 20:38 <@fenn> yeah like "is the worm squirming because it feels pain, or because its basal ganglion is firing in response to stimulus" 20:38 <@fenn> in the end we all see whatever comes in our eyes and have to make sense of it 20:39 < clock> fenn, yes that fits my view 20:41 < cluckj> lets reduce all philosophical problems to squirmin' worms 20:41 <@fenn> is the cat meowing because it thinks i'm just holding out, because it wants food, to go out, it's bored, it wants me to turn off the rain? 20:41 <@fenn> nobody can know 20:42 < cluckj> not until my cat translator is out of the pre-alpha stage of development 20:42 < clock> or, because, cats which meow in this situation, tend to make it through the evolution? 20:42 < cluckj> all it says right now is "feed me" but I don't believe it 20:42 < QuantumG> my cat only meows when she's in a cage 20:42 < clock> in its own ribcage? 20:42 < QuantumG> and the meaning is entirely obvious.. "what's with the cage?" 20:43 < clock> I would like to ask Peter Singer whether a cat is in its own ribcage 20:43 < clock> Maybe his philosophical brain would pop on that 20:43 < QuantumG> or you could just punch him in the crotch and move on 20:43 < clock> QuantumG, LOL 20:44 < cluckj> he's like 1000 years old, don't hit him 20:44 < clock> so he already mastered the anti-senescence project? 20:44 < cluckj> nah, I'm pretty sure he's against "unnatural" life extension 20:45 < clock> by the way recently something happened to me which showed, how virtual some our philosophical categories are 20:45 < cluckj> all of our categories are virtual 20:45 < clock> yes 20:45 <@fenn> you sat on a cardboard box and realized it was a chair? 20:45 < clock> but in this case a mismatch was highlighted 20:46 < clock> no 20:46 < clock> some years ago I used to type particular command often on my computer 20:46 < clock> and then I changed from english keyboard to german 20:46 < clock> recently I had to type these commands again and I typed then with Z and Y swapped 20:47 <@fenn> ok the cat is definitely bored, she's walking on her front legs 20:47 < clock> I think conventional wisdom would expect that when we want to type something, we retrieve the sequence of letters, then translate that sequence into type strokes 20:47 < clock> no 20:47 < clock> obviously there are some motoric programs stored directly which get activated 20:48 < clock> so it probably goes partially this and partially that way 20:50 < clock> You can get diarrhoea from drinking water 20:51 < clock> But can you get drinking water from diarrhoea? 20:51 < clock> I can get drinking water from urine 20:52 <@fenn> it's still water either way 20:52 < clock> onw, translate these 3 sentences into a different language 20:52 <@fenn> D20 is toxic 20:53 * fenn quacks like a duck 20:53 < clock> you can also notice that in sentence 1, the term "drinking water" clearly includes unsafe drinking water, whereas in sentence 2 the same term clearly excludes unsafe driknking water 20:53 < clock> so the same term is self-contradctory 20:54 < clock> then, the term diarrhoea is used to refer to the disease and the physical stuff at the same time 20:54 < clock> and "get" to refer to "catch" and "manufacture" at the same time 20:55 < clock> I think it shows, how wishy washy the language terms actually are 20:55 < clock> I think they are good for survival, but not good for too deep philosophing 20:56 <@fenn> also not good for formalizing data to feed to computer programs 20:56 < cluckj> computers don't do too well with mush 20:56 <@fenn> no way dude, i learned to computer on a mush 20:57 < cluckj> I mushed on a computer 20:57 < cluckj> an iMush 20:57 <@fenn> .wik MUSH 20:57 < yoleaux> "In multiplayer online games, a MUSH (a backronymed pun on MUD most often expanded as Multi-User Shared Hallucination, though Multi-User Shared Hack,Habitat, and Holodeck are also observed) is a text-based online social medium to which multiple users are connected at the same time. MUSHes are often used for online social intercourse and …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSH 20:57 < cluckj> ahahaha social intercourse 20:57 <@fenn> other types of intercourse :\ 20:58 < cluckj> yiss 20:58 < clock> does AI have to show social intelligence to pass? 20:58 < cluckj> no 20:58 <@fenn> to pass what? 20:59 < clock> and then, when it passes, is it a problem when the researches, who build it, don't show social intelligence? 20:59 < clock> fenn, to pass as AI 20:59 <@fenn> i don't even know what tha tmeans 20:59 < cluckj> I know some people who are still people, without social intelligence 20:59 <@fenn> "is this AI AI?" type error 21:00 <@fenn> you two have very similar names 21:00 <@fenn> one is blue, the other is dark teal 21:01 < cluckj> lol 21:01 <@fenn> i wish yoleaux had urban dictionary support 21:01 < cluckj> no plugin for it? 21:02 <@fenn> oh there are a zillion plugins 21:02 < clock> something has developed sentience in my fridge 21:02 < cluckj> ...but not installed? 21:02 < clock> its either the mayonnaise, the carrots or the celery 21:02 <@fenn> cluckj: http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Yiff 21:02 < cluckj> that's pretty deep in my no-click zone 21:03 <@fenn> eh. it's just etymology 21:04 < cluckj> so? 21:04 -!- sapiosexual_ [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:05 <@fenn> but wait, how can we be descended from pigs AND apes? 21:05 < cluckj> a very lazy god 21:06 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:06 <@fenn> something about a rib 21:06 < QuantumG> mmm ribs 21:06 < cluckj> it was a babyback rib 21:06 <@fenn> that's perfect 21:07 < cluckj> yes 21:19 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has quit [Quit: quit] 21:36 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:37 -!- sapiosexual_ [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:37 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yourjfsmmtvtizxk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:44 <@fenn> how weird that at the same time the US was passing "Human-Animal Hybrid Prohibition Act of 2008" the normally anti-GMO UK passed "ensure regulation of "human-admixed" embryos created from a combination of human and animal genetic material for research" 21:48 <@fenn> hm "Human-Animal Hybrid Prohibition Act of 2008" died in committee and wasn't passed 21:50 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:57 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:26 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:38 < kanzure> welp now i want a godzilla 22:41 < kanzure> clock is too often disrespected, he should work on that 22:41 < kanzure> i feel disrespected by his constant state of respect-interest 22:41 < kanzure> clock: btw, consciousness is half-banned from this channel 22:44 < kanzure> clock: also most things ai, because people are terrible at thinking about ai (or why anyone should care whether it's "artificial" or not- and until i get a good solid answer, i'll continue to banhammer) 22:44 <@fenn> kanzure: it seems like he was saying exactly the same thing you do 22:44 < kanzure> go look again 22:44 < kanzure> he was complaining that he was insulted for someone claiming he didn't have qualia 22:45 < kanzure> 20:08 < clock> delinquentme, I feel disrespected and insulted when you say "you're basically a sentient AI with a connection to IRC i think" 22:45 <@fenn> meh 22:45 <@fenn> that's a quirk i don't mind 22:45 < kanzure> sorry to disappoint 22:45 < kanzure> the world is much more awful than etc 22:46 <@fenn> i thought you were talking about the brain emulator stuff 22:46 <@fenn> 'hard problem of consciousness' 22:46 < kanzure> here's the really hard problem of consciousness: 22:46 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness 22:46 < kanzure> "Consciousness—The having of perceptions, thoughts, and feelings; awareness. The term is impossible to define except in terms that are unintelligible without a grasp of what consciousness means. Many fall into the trap of equating consciousness with self-consciousness—to be conscious it is only necessary to be aware of the external world. Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon: it is impossible to specify what it is, what ... 22:46 < kanzure> ... it does, or why it has evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.[19]" 22:47 < kanzure> in other words, avoid like the plague 22:47 <@fenn> an AI connected to IRC would probably have no survival instincts 22:47 < kanzure> but why is it artificial? 22:47 <@fenn> guh 22:47 < kanzure> am i artificial? is it because a person made me? 22:47 <@fenn> yes 22:48 <@fenn> .d artificial 22:48 < yoleaux> artificial (/ɑːtɪˈfɪʃ(ə)l/): adj. 1. Made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, especially as a copy of something natural: her skin glowed in the ⁓ light — http://is.gd/ZQvnv2 22:48 < kanzure> then why bother caring about whether it's a dog on irc or jupiter's third nostril 22:49 <@fenn> i believe "doge" is now the preferred term 22:49 < kanzure> "artificial" is fucked up anyway, humans do natural things 22:49 <@fenn> nope, not according to the dictionary 22:49 < kanzure> "rather than occurring naturally, since man definitely isn't a part of nature, and rather lives above and beyond it because god said so" 22:49 < kanzure> .ety artificial 22:49 < yoleaux> artificial (adj.): "late 14c., in the phrase artificial day "part of the day from sunrise to sunset," from Old French artificial, from Latin artificialis "of or belonging to art," from artificium (see artifice)." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=artificial 22:50 <@fenn> s/artificial/art/ 22:50 <@fenn> hay guyz check out my art intelligence (you can't say it's not art!) 22:51 < kanzure> .ety art 22:51 < yoleaux> art (n.): "early 13c., "skill as a result of learning or practice," from Old French art (10c.), from Latin artem (nominative ars) "work of art; practical skill; a business, craft," from PIE *ar-ti- (cognates: Sanskrit rtih "manner, mode;" Greek arti " …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=art 22:51 <@fenn> i am currently looking at this and facepalming every other line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_Science_on_Intelligence 22:52 < kanzure> great now you know which researchers to avoid 22:53 <@fenn> "intelligence is intelligence! we don't know what it is, but tests measure something... to do with the brain. and genetics. or race. whatever that is. but we can definitely make statements about "blacks" and "whites" because this is a newspaper and things are in black and white." 22:53 < kanzure> a lot of these have a bunch of basic reasoning errors 22:54 < kanzure> without even looking at the studies, i'm pretty sure some of these are not falsifiable statements 22:54 <@fenn> they aren't even internally consistent statements 22:54 <@fenn> unless they're tautologies 22:55 < kanzure> does this qualify as work? were they paid for this? 22:55 <@fenn> no 22:55 <@fenn> in fact it was probably a net negative to the career of anyone signing it 22:56 <@fenn> lots of names from UT Austin on there 22:57 < kanzure> "joint statement on our collective incompetence, volume 1" 22:57 <@fenn> i wonder if people would get so hot and bothered about "the link between balancing and race" 22:58 < kanzure> balancing? 22:58 <@fenn> you know, standing up and not falling over 22:58 < kanzure> http://www.popsci.com/article/science/has-end-banana-arrived 22:58 <@fenn> at least it would resolve the "culturally biased" criticisms, i think 22:59 < kanzure> i wonder if this fungus can be intentionally cultured and airdropped 22:59 <@fenn> another banana scare? this happens every year 22:59 < kanzure> "The story of the African farm is the story of a threat to the world’s largest fruit crop. Commercially, bananas generate $8 billion annually and, according to the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, more than 400 million people rely on the fruit as their primary source of calories." 22:59 < kanzure> oh it does? 22:59 < kanzure> surely someone is testing for the fungus and making financial decisions based on that 22:59 <@fenn> "the future looks bleak. what will we ever do without bananas" 23:00 <@fenn> actually that's misleading 23:00 < kanzure> i wonder if you could do directed evolution for fungal resistance, without going through entire full-cycle generations of banana trees (or any other crop that sucks at fighting something) 23:00 <@fenn> the banana at risk is the cavendish banana, but most people who eat "bananas" as a large portion of their caloric intake are actually eating "plantains" 23:01 < kanzure> for example, you could do a basic cell culture and artificially complete the life cycle through inducement 23:01 <@fenn> the problem is it's a clone; all the bananas are the same plant 23:01 <@fenn> and it has no seeds 23:01 < kanzure> why is that a problem for cell culture? 23:01 <@ParahSailin> is cavendish the wrong ploidy to make zygotes? 23:02 <@fenn> i, er... no comment 23:02 <@fenn> why not just clone it in cell culture and modify the genome 23:02 <@fenn> is that not a thing? 23:02 <@fenn> agrobacterium 23:03 < kanzure> great, what modification do you make 23:03 <@ParahSailin> hey thats cool A recent development is the use of "somaclones" in banana cultivation. Micropropagation involves growing plants from very small amounts of source tissue, sometimes even a single cell, under sterile conditions using artificial techniques to induce growth. The purpose of micropropagation is often to produce a large number of genetically identical offspring. However, by inducing mutations through various means, it is 23:03 <@ParahSailin> possible to produce plants which differ slightly from the "parent" plant and from each other ("somaclonal variations"). By growing on these somaclones and selecting those with desirable features, new cultivars can be produced which are very similar to an existing cultivar, but differ in one or two features, such as disease resistance. Somaclones may only be distinguishable by genetic analysis. 23:03 < kanzure> is that from the article? 23:03 <@ParahSailin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banana_cultivars 23:04 < kanzure> i wonder how many selection rounds are required to get disease resistance 23:04 < kanzure> i'm not interested if it's going to take 100 billion rounds 23:05 <@fenn> you could just inject random shotgun fragments of other banana species 23:06 < kanzure> are other banana species resistant? 23:06 <@fenn> i dunno 23:06 < kanzure> why would that help then? 23:06 <@ParahSailin> apparently useful http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/pdf/10.1094/PDIS.2004.88.6.580 23:06 < kanzure> .title 23:06 <@fenn> because the people demand a pink banana 23:06 < yoleaux> An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie 23:06 < kanzure> someone turn on paperbot 23:06 * fenn looks around 23:09 < kanzure> i'll do it.. 23:10 -!- paperbot [~paperbot@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:11 <@fenn> how do i get a scihub password 23:11 < kanzure> it doesn't work anyway 23:11 < dingo> next version will be rockbot 23:11 < dingo> rockbot beats paperbot 23:11 < dingo> or is it scissors 23:11 < dingo> whatever 23:11 < kanzure> next version is papermonk https://github.com/kanzure/papermonk 23:11 <@fenn> scissorbot mopes in his castle and makes topiaries 23:12 < kanzure> followed by paperpunk 23:13 <@fenn> paperjunk 23:13 < kanzure> be nice to the bot 23:14 < paperbot> yeah 23:16 <@fenn> ok so just take your gene shotgun and dope it up with zombie bananas, then blam blam and bob's your uncle 23:17 < kanzure> "when a customer withdraws bitcoin from a Circle account, it automatically converted back into a local currency to be transferred into an existing bank account" 23:17 < kanzure> this is the worst idea ever. how do you withdraw just your bitcoins from their website? 23:17 <@fenn> you aren't withdrawing bitcoins, you're withdrawing "money" from "your account" 23:18 <@fenn> trust me, i'm from the internet 23:19 < kanzure> why can't you be one of the useful time travelers, like one that remembers schematics of future technology 23:19 <@fenn> i remember schematics of future technology all the time... 23:19 <@fenn> i don't know what to do with all this crap 23:19 < kanzure> yeah but they're all just hexagons over and over again 23:20 < kanzure> anyone can travel forward in time, big deal 23:20 <@fenn> hey lay off my hexagon system 23:20 < kanzure> :) 23:20 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-79-151.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:20 <@fenn> hexagons are the language of self assembly 23:20 <@fenn> actually i never shared any of that 23:20 < kanzure> i assumed it 23:20 <@fenn> fair enough 23:20 < kanzure> i mean what else is it going to be 23:21 < kanzure> aquaman's trident? 23:21 <@fenn> penrose tilings 23:21 <@fenn> ghost diagrams 23:21 <@fenn> topological manifolds 23:21 <@fenn> what is "it" 23:21 -!- clock [~clock@84-72-11-5.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22 < kanzure> well, it's because of bee hives 23:22 < kanzure> nuclear bee hives 23:22 < kanzure> in space 23:22 <@fenn> newcomer, i welcome you to the church of hexagonalism 23:22 <@fenn> have you heard of the prophet graham? 23:23 < kanzure> uh maybe? 23:23 <@fenn> should i even bother reading that thread on twister? 23:23 < kanzure> the transhumanism thread? 23:23 < kanzure> the answer is no 23:23 <@fenn> ok 23:24 <@fenn> she ended up saying something about mormons and i was briefly confused but decided i didn't really care 23:24 <@fenn> i mean of all the religions in the world you pick mormonism? 23:25 <@fenn> that's quite a leap 23:25 <@fenn> how about something nice and noncommittal like taoism 23:25 < kanzure> when i saw the thread first i was going to mention transfigurism/mormonism just because the person seemed unaware 23:25 <@fenn> or jainism 23:25 < kanzure> but then i realized i didn't care 23:25 <@fenn> .wik jainism 23:25 < yoleaux> "Jainism /ˈdʒeɪnɪz(ə)m/, traditionally known as Jaina dharma, is an Indian religion that prescribes a path of non-violence towards all living beings and emphasizes spiritual independence and equality between all forms of life. Practitioners believe that non-violence and self-control are the means by which they can obtain liberation." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism 23:25 <@fenn> that sounds pretty reasonable doesn't it? 23:25 < kanzure> twister is too full of itself, for a group of people that never speaks 23:26 < kanzure> you would expect the epic lurkers to have the most to say, but instead it's just a pile of crap like everywher elese 23:26 < kanzure> *else 23:26 < kanzure> *everywhere 23:26 <@fenn> i like reading rex kerr's comments 23:28 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7753589 23:28 < yoleaux> MS Security Essentials reporting false positives in the Bitcoin blockchain 23:28 < kanzure> "So a joker decided to embed some Anti Virus bait in the blockchain, just a few bytes is enough to make the software go nuts deleting a whole lot of files the Bitcoin client needs. The solution the Bitcoin developers suggest is pure old-school malware style, XOR the blocks to hide it from the Anti Virus suites. Classic." https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4069 23:29 <@fenn> gosh that actually works? 23:30 < kanzure> "I seem to remember just having some text copy+pasted into IRC channels used to send peoples anti virus software into meltdown.. but this was sometime like 2000-2001" 23:30 < kanzure> "For a while, some security suites would freak out and terminate an IRC connection if they saw the text "start keylogger" show up. You could get people to drop by saying it in a channel, for instance." 23:30 -!- paperbot [~paperbot@131.252.130.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30 <@fenn> oh i remember that 23:30 <@fenn> obviously paperbot is running the same software 23:31 -!- paperbot [~paperbot@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:31 <@fenn> start keylogger 23:31 -!- paperbot [~paperbot@131.252.130.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31 <@fenn> :( 23:31 <@fenn> :D 23:31 < kanzure> stop doing that 23:31 -!- paperbot [~paperbot@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:33 <@fenn> must ... resist ... start ... key ... no! 23:37 <@fenn> maybe if anti-ecoterroriests *ahem* killed all the bananas, consumers would finally accept GMO foods 23:38 < kanzure> monsanto compelled me to do it, your honor 23:38 <@fenn> somebody think of the GMO children! 23:39 < sheena> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1453211280/cleverpet-a-console-that-teaches-and-feeds-your-do/ probably i need this 23:40 < kanzure> uh circle.com gives out bitcoins for credit cards? wtf http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid3565727796001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAAABkyY~,NsA8xqWnIh_OFp1f8gq7kAsRpDHRjsjN&bctid=3569471188001 23:41 <@fenn> sheena it's like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_(game) 23:42 <@fenn> how many credit cards can i buy with 1 bitcoin? 23:42 < sheena> yeah but for dogs 23:42 < kanzure> oh, they are not allowing you to withdraw bitcoins at all, so it just stays in their system. that's fucked up. 23:43 <@fenn> kanzure: you're just now realizing this? 23:43 < kanzure> well, they didn't release their product until today 23:43 < kanzure> so yes? 23:44 <@fenn> i got it from "when a customer withdraws bitcoin from a Circle account, it automatically converted back into a local currency to be transferred into an existing bank account" 23:44 < kanzure> as far as i can tell, they don't even let you deposit bitcoins 23:45 <@fenn> at least gmail lets you download mail with POP3/IMAP 23:45 < kanzure> and if you also can't withdraw, then how are you going to make any payments? what's the product for 23:45 <@fenn> you put "money" in 23:46 <@fenn> you send them hate mail with proof of work attached 23:46 < kanzure> provable hate is a nice concept 23:47 < kanzure> sheena: the arduino/raspberrypi project you picked out is a good intro project 23:47 <@fenn> i hate you *this much* 23fc6625a54f86ce0c9002dbaa2fed9646e40d9a 23:47 < kanzure> sheena: i mean, you'll want to wire up a blinkenlights thing first, but a vending machine mechanism is pretty basic 23:48 < kanzure> https://www.vending.com/wfdata/frame515-1175/index_files/image020.jpg 23:48 <@fenn> "lumosity for dogs" only works if you believe in lumosity 23:48 < sheena> lol 23:48 < kanzure> i think it's more like, "for people who feel bad about leaving dogs home alone all day" 23:48 <@fenn> ugh auger dispensers are the worst 23:48 < sheena> lumosity in the "keep peolpe busy doing things" sense, not the "make them genises" sense? 23:48 < kanzure> penises? 23:49 <@fenn> genii penii what's the difference 23:49 <@fenn> .ety genius 23:49 < yoleaux> genius (n.): "late 14c., "tutelary god (classical or pagan)," from Latin genius "guardian deity or spirit which watches over each person from birth; spirit, incarnation, wit, talent;" also "prophetic skill," originally "generative power," from root of …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=genius 23:49 <@fenn> .ety penis 23:49 < yoleaux> penis (n.): "1670s, perhaps from French pénis or directly from Latin penis "penis," earlier "tail," from PIE *pes- "penis" (cognates: Sanskrit pasas-, Greek peos, posthe "penis," probably also Old English fæsl "progeny, offspring," Old Norse fösull, …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=penis 23:50 <@fenn> tail? 23:50 <@fenn> how the heck do you get "penis" from "fösull" 23:51 < kanzure> .ety genius 23:51 < yoleaux> genius (n.): "late 14c., "tutelary god (classical or pagan)," from Latin genius "guardian deity or spirit which watches over each person from birth; spirit, incarnation, wit, talent;" also "prophetic skill," originally "generative power," from root of …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=genius 23:52 <@fenn> sheena: yoleaux works for me 23:52 < kanzure> ? 23:52 < sheena> yoleaux? 23:52 <@fenn> the bot 23:53 <@fenn> aka "completeley automated system to entertain computers and humans alike" 23:53 < kanzure> sheena: you can get a kit from sparkfun.com i bet 23:54 < sheena> oh instead of lumosity 23:54 <@fenn> the smartest dog would do nothing, and continue receiving food "for free" 23:54 <@fenn> that would require time travel though 23:55 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-79-151.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:55 < kanzure> "As China's economy continues to cool, companies are waiting longer and finding it harder to get paid for goods and services they've already sold, leading to record amounts of receivables - and potential write-offs - on corporate balance sheets. As one Chinese business owner exclaimed: "If you don't pay me and I pay others, aren't I just a sucker? I'm not that stupid." Receivables on average (across 2300 firms) reached $160.49 million at the ... 23:55 < kanzure> ... end of last year, more than double the $65.9 million average at the end of 2009 and median collection time for billings crawled up from 71.4 days to 90.42 days (the first time above 90 days)." 23:55 < kanzure> so wait... i can just buy equipment. and not pay? 23:56 < kanzure> as long as i'm not their largest customer, they probably don't have any incentive to pursue legal action 23:56 < QuantumG> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_stuffing 23:57 <@fenn> taking delayed payments to the limit and you get communism 23:58 < kanzure> oh wait, you have to find someone willing to ship before payment 23:59 < QuantumG> that's mostly everyone who isn't dealing with end-users 23:59 < kanzure> alibaba merchants? 23:59 < QuantumG> I think so, yes 23:59 < kanzure> i guess they already ship free samples, so why not --- Log closed Fri May 16 00:00:04 2014