--- Log opened Mon May 26 00:00:15 2014 00:06 <@fenn> what is precision 00:07 <@fenn> i think it makes most sense to talk about precision in percentages 00:07 <@fenn> holding micron tolerance over 1mm is different than over 1m 00:08 <@fenn> i wonder how hard it would be to make a solar pumped laser crystal from scratch 00:08 < kanzure> i mean something that the machinists would actually use 00:08 < kanzure> some of them seem to be of the opinion that if it costs less than $50k, they don't want it 00:09 <@fenn> paperbot: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994SPIE.2121...58L 00:09 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/714461f5883f507aef53984efb3eb007.txt 00:09 <@fenn> what machinists 00:10 <@fenn> paperbot: http://www.mill-creek-systems.com/HighLift/Climbers/solar_laser_SPIE1.pdf 00:10 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/aca4ba49fe7ebfb272f2c19bd78c4fd6.pdf 00:10 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:11 <@fenn> geoffrey landis is some kind of space technology god 00:13 < kanzure> fenn, http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/why-cnc-machining-so-expensive-263261/ 00:13 < kanzure> fenn: these guys laugh for like 9 pages of text at this guy for even asking 00:15 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:15 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15 < kanzure> wouldn't it be better overall if a metal-capable cnc machine cost less than $200k? 00:15 < kanzure> why is that idea laughable 00:15 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:15 <@fenn> He has published 400 scientific papers in the fields of photovoltaics and astronautics, holds seven patents on photovoltaic device designs, ... flown the human-powered airplane "Chrysalis", was a member of the Sojourner Rover team, driving the rovers "Spirit" and "Opportunity", published Hans Moravec's speculative essay "Pigs in CyberSpace", and Vernor Vinge's article on The Technological 00:15 <@fenn> Singularity, and perhaps more importantly posted a lot to usenet 00:16 <@fenn> kanzure there are plenty of big iron machines laying around, the bigger the cheaper 00:16 <@fenn> i guess you want a "new" machine tho 00:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17 < kanzure> "and perhaps more importantly posted a lot to usenet" does it really say that 00:17 <@fenn> no 00:17 < kanzure> foo 00:18 < kanzure> all these "capital goods" are expensive for no good reason 00:18 < kanzure> why should lab equipment, machining equipment, semiconductor manufacturing equipment, medical equipment, etc., all be so expensive 00:18 <@fenn> yes i was going to say something about the "somebody else's money" problem 00:18 <@fenn> nobody would plunk down the price of a house if it was their money 00:19 <@fenn> "oh guess i'm gonna have to get a mortgage on my CNC machine" 00:19 < kanzure> it looks like there are tax benefits to purchasing "capital equipment" 00:19 < kanzure> lots of tax writeoffs 00:19 < kanzure> or tax benefits 00:19 <@fenn> whatever 00:19 <@fenn> even air conditioners are expensive 00:19 -!- sheena [~home@d154-20-226-28.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:19 < kanzure> are they? how expensive? 00:20 <@fenn> i dunno, cost per pound is probably the same as a cnc machine tho 00:20 < kanzure> i imagine air conditioners weigh less 00:20 <@fenn> 4-ton 13 SEER heat pump/AC Amount: $3,450 00:20 < kanzure> so anyway, for most of the "capital goods", i don't see a reason for the high prices 00:21 <@fenn> that can't be right 00:21 < kanzure> "low volume" is a poor justification for higher pricing.. maybe if it was 10,000% cheaper, you would sell more. 00:22 <@fenn> ok "4-ton" is just a normal house sized AC 00:22 < kanzure> semiconductor manufacturing equipment has apparently been increasing in price from $30k/device to $300k/device for a hwile now 00:22 < kanzure> and everyone complains about multi-billion dollar fabs 00:22 < kanzure> well maybe if you actually focused on cheap equipment, you wouldn't have to spend a few billion for every facility 00:23 <@fenn> but they already have cheap equipment... the old fabs that still exist 00:23 < kanzure> $32 billion/year is spent on semiconductor manufacturing equipment 00:23 <@fenn> is that 23nm or whatever, or is there spending on new "old" technology 00:23 <@fenn> stupid words 00:24 < kanzure> yes i think it includes spending on old technology 00:24 <@fenn> what proportion of spending is "experimental" "testing" "stable" "oldstable" "deprecated" 00:24 < kanzure> well, all of the devices are manually built, so it's hard to tell if it's just "old inventory" or "built to order" 00:25 < kanzure> super-deprecated equipment in that industry probably gets donated to universities for their foundries 00:25 < kanzure> and then i'm sure there's a refurbishment lifecycle of crap 00:26 < kanzure> like in the life sciences 00:27 <@fenn> i doubt it.. i see a lot of high tech crap getting shredded in scrapyards 00:27 < kanzure> "capital equipment" is stuff you use to do more stuff 00:27 <@fenn> right 00:27 <@fenn> that's the definition of capital 00:27 < kanzure> and basically every industry that has any relevance to transhumanist industry has "expensive" capital equipment 00:27 <@fenn> .wik capital 00:27 < yoleaux> "Disambiguation: Capital" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital 00:27 <@fenn> .d capital 00:28 < kanzure> and it is stupid and wrong 00:28 < yoleaux> capital¹ (/ˈkapɪt(ə)l/): n. 1. The city or town that functions as the seat of government and administrative centre of a country or region: Warsaw is the ⁓ of Poland; adj. 1. (Of an offence or charge) liable to the death penalty: murder is the only ⁓ crime in the state; excl. Used to express approval, satisfaction, or delight: That’s splendid! Capital! — http://is.gd/TwJuce 00:28 <@fenn> ugh words 00:28 < kanzure> .d capital good 00:28 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, that command (.d) crashed. 00:28 <@fenn> .wik capital (economics) 00:28 < yoleaux> "In economics, capital goods, real capital, or capital assets are already-produced durable goods or any non-financial asset that is used in production of goods or services." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_(economics) 00:29 < kanzure> what would be so bad about $3k equipment that builds 10 micron wafers, for example 00:29 <@fenn> who would use it? 00:30 <@fenn> i mean, it would be a great kickstarter project 00:30 < kanzure> people who don't have $6 billion for a wafer fab, or who don't have $100k for MOSIS, or who don't have $20k for an asic run 00:30 < kanzure> lower prices means that more people have it because of the long tail of poor people 00:30 <@fenn> you could sell one to at least ten hackerspaces 00:30 < kanzure> *more people have at least that much money 00:31 < kanzure> *because there are more people with less money 00:31 <@fenn> les says that rich people optimize for the number of checks they have to write 00:31 < kanzure> i'm down to 0 so i must be doing something right 00:31 <@fenn> if they can write one check for ten times the amount vs 10 checks for one tenth the amount, they'll go with the one check 00:31 < kanzure> (fuck checks) 00:32 < kanzure> what's interesting is that it's cheaper to hire someone to build a cnc machine than it is to buy a new cnc machine 00:32 < kanzure> and you can fire the person when they're done, which is easier than paying off a mortgage or something 00:33 <@fenn> yep 00:33 <@fenn> this is what you call an economic crisis 00:33 < kanzure> why not undercut everyone- hire someone and build cheap cnc machines; hire someone and build cheap thermocyclers; hire someone and build cheap AFMs, etc. 00:34 <@fenn> are you functioning as a user of the machines, or re-selling them? 00:34 < kanzure> let's hypothetically sell them 00:35 <@fenn> ok then you have to add some profit margin to it (right? (?)) 00:35 < kanzure> actually, let's assume no 00:35 <@fenn> ok then there's at least overhead of "doing business" for example taxes 00:35 < kanzure> that's normal 00:35 <@fenn> so let's estimate overhead at 50% 00:35 < kanzure> paying employees, material costs 00:38 < kanzure> wasn't there a mass-produced car that cost less than $1k? 00:39 <@fenn> i can't believe those practicalmachinist guys cited "toilet paper" as a reason cnc machining is so expensive 00:41 < kanzure> the operator's time is "expensive" (only $60-$80/hour, pretty cheap), but they missed his other question about the equipment 00:41 < kanzure> and they cite all the $200 lego cnc machine things, which are obviously not in the same market 00:41 <@fenn> This guy will be laughing all the way to the bank when he takes 10 500$ cnc machines, put larger motors in them, then pay a single operator to run all 10 of them as they run pretty much unattended 24/7/365. He'll put us all out of business with his 10$/hour shop rate, expand the size of his shop to 50 500$ machines, while adding a second operator, and will be a billionaire before long. 00:41 < kanzure> but if there was a $200 hextatic thing, i bet they would use it 00:41 <@fenn> i'm assuming this was meant as a sarcastic comment, but i don't see anything wrong with the plan 00:42 <@fenn> if an operator is running 10 machines that's only $6-8/hr in "shop time" 00:42 <@fenn> let's say $10/hr with overhead 00:42 < kanzure> your machinsts cost $8/hour? 00:42 < kanzure> *machinists 00:42 <@fenn> no, the machinist costs $60/hr 00:43 <@fenn> or am i misunderstanding how they quote things 00:43 < kanzure> i bet they bill by machine time + operator time, so that operators doing non-machining things can still bill 00:44 < kanzure> ("trying to understand your shitty dxf: 5 hours") 00:44 <@fenn> that's too logical 00:44 < kanzure> they aren't stupid 00:44 <@fenn> who was it that had the website that automatically validated your cad files so you wouldnt waste their time? 00:44 < kanzure> emachineshop? 00:44 <@fenn> yeah that might have been it 00:44 < kanzure> hey look i fucking knew something for once 00:45 <@fenn> oh, no you have to use emachineshop's software 00:45 < kanzure> was it nick pinkston's cloudfab thing? 00:45 < kanzure> would have been for 3d printing only 00:46 <@fenn> i dunno. could have been cloudfab. anyway, the idea makes a lot of sense 00:46 <@fenn> let the customer waste their own time if they're morons 00:47 < kanzure> so you prefer the "sell a service" instead of "sell equipment" model of http://transcriptic.com/ ? 00:47 <@fenn> i'm reading the "why are cnc machines so expensive" thread and it's mostly about running a machine shop, not selling cnc machines 00:48 < kanzure> they mention the cheap machines deep in the thread somewhere 00:48 < kanzure> it's either (1) elitism, or (2) there genuinely isn't a good cheap cnc machine anywhere to be found 00:49 <@fenn> "Why not use high speed brushless motors instead, like they do on remote controlled airplanes? You can get a $500 motor with 6kw of power or so and it weighs less than 2 pounds." 00:50 <@fenn> 6kw? 00:50 <@fenn> that's kinda a lot 00:52 < kanzure> for the low-end $400k cnc machines, i think they get away with those prices because of maintenance and service contracts 00:52 <@fenn> "'d answer more of your points but i'm busy and its not worth my time trying to convince you that you are way off base in your cost analysis and the ability of machines to just do everything for you" this is what's wrong with the world 00:53 <@fenn> maintenance and service contracts are required 00:53 <@fenn> you aren't allowed to open the machine yourself, under penalty of death 00:53 < kanzure> mazak cnc machines are, apparently, the most expensive http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-utdCwdJRDcI/UfFuDqHPEjI/AAAAAAAAAG4/wzY4M7VZf3k/s1600/maza1.jpg 00:54 < kanzure> those control panels are so stupid- why are they still around? 00:54 <@fenn> some pics of a $5k 1980's mazak i worked on: http://fenn.freeshell.org/retrofest/default.html 00:55 <@fenn> not saying it's the same thing, but when a $5k machine does everything you need why spend $500k 00:55 <@fenn> whats with the guys in jumpsuits chemically bonded to the control panels 00:56 < kanzure> it's to make them look important 00:56 <@fenn> they are like lego figurines 00:56 < kanzure> cnc jumpsuits... hah. 00:56 <@fenn> the claw snaps onto the control panel's locking bar 00:56 < kanzure> "this equipment is so fucking expensive that you have to wear the special uniform" 00:57 < kanzure> cnc rangers http://www.comicpalooza.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/powerrangersimage.jpg 00:57 <@fenn> lame 00:57 <@fenn> you'd think they would be wearing white jumpsuits to match the machine 00:58 <@fenn> with red-orange trim 00:58 < kanzure> nah they are matching the floor 00:58 < kanzure> to indicate their social status 00:58 <@fenn> so the guy with the blue tie is the insecure middle manager? 00:59 < kanzure> well insecurity breeds excess adipose tissue, so it's the fat one 00:59 <@fenn> all this communist/capitalist symbolism is so awkward, like people still believe in this stuff? 01:00 < kanzure> "well it costs so much, so it must be basically magic" 01:00 <@fenn> those membrane keyboards are so awful 01:00 <@fenn> "chips get in your keyboard? make it smooth vertical, because everyone loves microwave ovens!" 01:00 < kanzure> "usb? never heard of it" 01:01 <@fenn> can you imagine if your job was to push numbers on a microwave oven all day, and if you screwed up it cost $100k to fix it and possibly kills someone 01:01 <@fenn> like wtf, chips in your keyboard? get a new fucking keyboard! 01:02 <@fenn> throw the old one in the trash with the $500 endmill you just broke 01:02 <@fenn> now bill the customer $5000 for "shop time" 01:02 <@fenn> problem solved 01:04 < kanzure> if these industries are competitive, why don't prices fall dramatically? 01:05 < kanzure> they really can't figure out how to make a $10k cnc? really? 01:05 <@fenn> i think there's a big potential for concrete framed machining center kits 01:06 < kanzure> does the concrete experience stress 01:06 <@fenn> then you just have to ship some bits of metal and instructions and bags of concrete, instead of some delicate thing 01:06 <@fenn> there's something called epoxy granite which is basically crushed rock in resin. it doesn't warp the way portland cement does 01:06 <@fenn> but honestly a month's cure time before you grout the ways is enough for most things 01:07 <@fenn> (if using portlant) 01:07 <@fenn> portland cement* 01:07 <@fenn> the concrete is mostly there for mass and vibration damping 01:07 <@fenn> the steel framing is what provides the rigidity 01:08 < Viper168_> and jimmy dean provides the sausage? 01:08 <@fenn> do you have anything constructive to add 01:09 <@fenn> getting enough sass from this practicalmachinist thread 01:10 < kanzure> i'm trying to imagine the equivalent biology thread 01:10 < kanzure> a bunch of postdocs saying "this is a real industry boy, where everyone is paid $8.50/hour to slave over $100k equipment" 01:10 <@fenn> well not really, they can't afford the $100k equipment 01:11 < kanzure> labs? sure they do 01:11 <@fenn> "everyone takes out a loan for the privilege of working over a sweaty lightbulb and some jello" 01:11 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:11 < kanzure> and the biotech companies just use leases, loans, mortgages, etc 01:11 <@fenn> heh sorry i was thinking academia 01:12 < kanzure> academic labs often have expensive toys 01:12 < kanzure> sometimes still under service warranty etc 01:13 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:13 <@fenn> wtf world do these people come from "once you move out of mom's basement you'll realize that $60/hr is not enough to live on" 01:13 < juri_> heh. 01:15 <@fenn> seems like the real problem is they are busy making parts to 0.01mm because that's the default setting in the cad program and the customer doesn't know any better, "oh well, i guess CNC machining is just expensive!" 01:15 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:16 < juri_> i really wish my hands still worked reliably. you and kanzure have been talking about a lot of things close to my heart. 01:16 < jrayhawk_> What's wrong? 01:16 <@fenn> juri_: have you tried speech to text software? 01:16 <@fenn> jrayhawk_: rsi 01:16 < juri_> carpel tunnel RSI etc... 01:17 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17 < juri_> fenn: takes keyboard time to try the stuff. 01:18 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:18 < jrayhawk_> I used to get that occasionally, but it's pretty rare since I switched over to a non-immunogenic diet. 01:18 < juri_> i also only use free software, so... not hopeful. 01:18 < juri_> ... 01:19 < jrayhawk_> I have to be *really* asking for it with stupid bouldering maneuvers now. 01:19 <@fenn> there are a few out there like "simon" 01:20 <@fenn> i thought it was called "julian" actually 01:21 < juri_> i really need a button on my keyboard mapped to "i'm terribly sorry, but my hands hurt too much to continue talking" 01:21 < jrayhawk_> there's also stuff like dasher 01:21 * juri_ ... 01:21 <@fenn> juri_: just mount it on your forehead so you can bang your head against the wall repeatedly 01:21 < jrayhawk_> haha 01:21 < juri_> LOL! :) 01:22 <@fenn> my mom used dragon for a while after hand surgery, it takes a couple weeks to learn your voice and then all of a sudden it starts working 01:22 < juri_> i'm continuing to build strange 3d printers... 01:22 <@fenn> "Julius is a high-performance, two-pass large vocabulary continuous speech recognition (LVCSR) decoder software for speech-related researchers and developers." 01:23 < juri_> fenn: free software? 01:23 < gradstudentbot> My experiment was working a second ago, but now it doesn't even work. 01:23 <@fenn> it's in ubuntu 01:24 <@fenn> i wonder why theres no "license: " field in the .deb metadata 01:25 < juri_> 'revised BSD style license' 01:25 < juri_> ... 01:25 < juri_> "i'm terribly sorry, but my hands hurt too much to continue talking" 01:26 < juri_> keep hacking. 01:27 <@fenn> i guess this is "unmodified BSD" http://julius.sourceforge.jp/LICENSE.txt 01:27 <@fenn> When you publish or present any results by using the Software, you 01:27 <@fenn> must explicitly mention your use of "Large Vocabulary Continuous 01:27 <@fenn> Speech Recognition Engine Julius". 01:28 < gradstudentbot> I could never be a PI. 01:30 <@fenn> she was a tall cool stack of affinity bead gel, sauntering into my office on a hot summer's day. the fan ticked off the minutes, the cover page of her report rustling uncomfortably on my desk. 01:31 <@fenn> "baby, you still haven't answered" she moaned. how did i ever get into this mess. try to please everyone and you end up with no-one on your side. i just hoped for her sake that bad vinny never found out. 01:32 < juri_> when i said that i would rather die than accept non-free software into my life, i did not expect the universe to come up with a nearly worse than death option: software developer/IRC addict without useful hands. 01:33 <@fenn> it was a two-car-garage operation. we supplied the brains, they supplied the space. how it ended up with litigation in patent court is a story for another day. 01:34 <@fenn> - excerpt from "truth hurts, or: how i learned to stop worrying and become a private investigator" 01:41 <@fenn> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olimG2HJ3ys 01:41 < yoleaux> Picard Getting Shot At 01:42 -!- Auctus [~Auctus@unaffiliated/auctus] has quit [Quit: Only $19.95 for a custom quit message? What a deal!] 01:52 <@fenn> post-singularity ersatz homoerotic existentialist canon: http://youtube.com/watch?v=vZ7CGBM4JJo 01:58 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-212.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:12 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:14 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:15 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:16 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:36 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:07 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:10 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:12 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:17 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:27 -!- xrr [~xrr@85-89-33-187.tt.ee] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:28 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:32 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:32 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:33 < dingo> i tried to get you that doc kanzure, failed 03:33 < dingo> JSTOR is replacing Literatum with a new homegrown in-house platform under development now. So they moved most of the developers to the new project and we no longer have access to anything to do with Literatum (including code , wiki,documentation, etc). So I know the project still exists but I can't access those wiki pages or code. 03:33 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:34 < dingo> so the very person who wrote it 03:34 < dingo> no longer has access to it haw haw haw 03:34 < dingo> anyway things got a lot worse since i left, quoting 03:35 < dingo> The app is still active. AT team removed the RDAS server (decommissioned it), but JSTOR still need to get the data to google scholar. So I think XXX (do you remember him? JSTOR fired him last year too) wrote a massive shell script to pull the data from Literatum instead of RDAS. So the app now only serves the generated files to google. 03:35 < dingo> so metadata is now gently served using shell scripts 03:41 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:42 < jrayhawk_> posix shell is the best cgi language 03:44 < jrayhawk_> nothing quite like elaborate and fragile nested "while read" loops with different IFS settings and printfs to parse query strings 03:45 < jrayhawk_> profound regret builds character 03:45 -!- xrr [~xrr@85-89-33-187.tt.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:48 -!- xrr [~xrr@85-89-33-187.tt.ee] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:51 < seba---> kanzure, i will work for free 04:12 -!- xrr [~xrr@85-89-33-187.tt.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:29 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:33 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:42 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:58 -!- Auctus [~Auctus@unaffiliated/auctus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:02 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04 -!- Auctus [~Auctus@unaffiliated/auctus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:05 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:24 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:30 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:35 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:40 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:42 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:46 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-191-120.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:47 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:48 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:56 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:06 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 07:06 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:16 < kanzure> seba---: can i get that in the form of a blood oath? 07:18 < seba---> lol 07:18 < seba---> kanzure, well if i would get 25k/y i would be super happy 07:19 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:19 < kanzure> what skills do you have again 07:21 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm27.kappa39.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:21 < seba---> kanzure, i don't know, i'm finishing my BSc from chemistry, writing my BSc thesis, will go to a MSc now, also in chemistry 07:21 < seba---> i like to do DIY shit and i did a lot of programming lol 07:22 < kanzure> no no, i said skills 07:22 < kanzure> programming counts, but a degree doesn't 07:22 < seba---> kanzure, i can make scientific equipment i guess, i know electronics, i can improvise a lot lol 07:23 < seba---> made a geiger counter before fukushima, that is without using 32423423 schematics from the interwebz 07:23 < seba---> or kits 07:23 < chris_99> surely it does if you made cool stuff during it kanzure 07:23 < seba---> which are highly available now 07:24 < chris_99> whatcha use it for? 07:25 < seba---> chris_99, oh, well it was funny, in the week i've made the first prototype, fukushima happened lol 07:25 < seba---> i've used it to show the people that there's no difference in radiation lol 07:25 < kanzure> anyone who can say "fukushima happened lol" in a sinle sentence is hireworthy 07:25 < kanzure> *single 07:26 < seba---> lol 07:27 < chris_99> do gieger tubes, use around 200V or something? 07:27 < seba---> mine uses 400 V and i think it's the lowest 07:27 < chris_99> aha 07:27 < chris_99> what kind of PSU does it use 07:28 < seba---> i've made it 07:28 < seba---> it's very simple 07:28 < seba---> uses all of the shelf components 07:28 < seba---> not like common designs which need a special transformer 07:30 < kanzure> "profound regret builds character" 07:34 < seba---> what do you mean by that? 07:37 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm27.kappa39.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:37 < eudoxia> something about using shell scripts as a web application 07:38 < seba---> lol 07:41 < gradstudentbot> Let's have a pset party. 08:29 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:32 < kanzure> way to be a buzzkill, gradstudentbot 08:32 < gradstudentbot> The fluorescent microscope is broken. 08:33 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:36 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:45 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm27.kappa39.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:00 -!- MichaelMalus [~King_ofal@host-2-102-193-37.as13285.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:12 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:12 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm27.kappa39.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:18 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:37 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@159.171.124.1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:38 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm27.kappa39.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:44 < chris_99> nmz787, is your project on hackaday.io 09:50 -!- sheena [~home@d154-20-226-28.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:52 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:53 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:56 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm27.kappa39.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:02 -!- kyknos__ [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:05 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:08 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:08 < delinquentme> kanzure, I missed that conclusion? I definitely don't remember saying that they wern't passwords 10:09 < delinquentme> additionally we're setting a solid precedent 10:09 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, if you want to get in on this 10:09 < kanzure> if they are passwords, then they shouldn't be in there 10:09 < kanzure> i don't know what we're talking about 10:09 < kanzure> or why ParahSailin is being brought in 10:13 < delinquentme> ok cool so then its settled. 10:14 < delinquentme> libgen is treating these as some kind of login creds and if we expand on the codebase at all we'll want a way to add in additional passwords so external files work fine by me 10:17 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:24 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:36 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:47 -!- xrr [~xrr@73.254.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:18 < kanzure> fenn, why is shopbot more expensive than a new car? 11:18 < kanzure> also, what about just using waterjets 11:21 < gradstudentbot> Who used the last of the growth medium? 11:25 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:28 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31 -!- sheena [~home@d154-20-226-28.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:32 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:54 -!- realz [~pinky@unaffiliated/realazthat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:55 -!- realzies [~pinky@unaffiliated/realazthat] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:00 < kanzure> brikwars has rules? 12:01 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:25 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:26 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:28 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:28 -!- kuldeepdhaka_ [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:33 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:35 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:40 < kanzure> [2014-05-26 14:40:05] BlackArrowBitFuryGPIO failed to modprobe i2c-dev (256) - 12:40 < kanzure> you need to be root? 12:40 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:40 < kanzure> is it asking me or telling me 12:41 -!- AlexDutch is now known as AlexDutchGreenMN 12:49 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-191-120.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:11 < kanzure> (i'm not actually mining, i promise, i was just checking if i had cgminer installed) 13:18 -!- xrr [~xrr@73.254.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:20 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:22 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:27 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:29 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:29 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:30 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:32 < jrayhawk_> re: brikwars: after a fashion 13:33 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-212.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:35 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:36 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:37 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:41 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:46 -!- floodis [~floodis@c-83-233-134-212.cust.bredband2.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:47 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@159.171.124.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:09 -!- seba-- [~hel1@cpe-90-157-233-7.static.amis.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:10 < kanzure> i see 14:11 -!- seba--- [~hel1@cpe-90-157-233-7.static.amis.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18 -!- seba--- [~hel1@cpe-90-157-233-7.static.amis.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:18 -!- seba-- [~hel1@cpe-90-157-233-7.static.amis.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:41 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:48 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:03 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-212.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-212.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:09 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:23 -!- floodis [~floodis@c-83-233-134-212.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:38 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:38 -!- kuldeepdhaka__ [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:39 -!- kuldeepdhaka_ [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:42 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:43 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:48 -!- kuldeepdhaka__ [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49 < kanzure> https://github.com/OogieM/sheep_eid_hw 15:49 < kanzure> "I met the author of this software over the weekend -- she runs a single-breed sheep farm in the North Fork valley in Colorado, and gathers data for the USDA, tracks the genetic lines of all their sheep, and so on. She was telling me that the commercial alternatives for the electronic tag-reading hardware can cost $1000+, but they were able to build a reader that communicates via Bluetooth with an Android device for less than $100." 15:49 < kanzure> http://lambtracker.com/ 15:51 < kanzure> http://www.volokh.com/posts/chain_1240849478.shtml "The invention of the sewing machine in the antebellum era was an achievement on par with the latest high-tech or pharmaceutical discovery today. This paper presents the first comprehensive empirical study by a legal scholar of the invention, patenting and commercialization of the sewing machine in the nineteenth century. In so doing, it challenges many assumptions by courts and scholars ... 15:51 < kanzure> ... today about the alleged efficiency-choking complexities of the modern patent system, revealing that complementary inventions, extensive patent litigation, so-called “patent trolls,” patent thickets, and privately formed patent pools have long been features of the American patent system reaching back to the antebellum era. This is particularly significant with respect to patent thickets, as there is a vigorous debate on whether ... 15:51 < kanzure> ... patent thickets exist. The sewing machine patent thicket -- called the “Sewing Machine War” -- confirms that patent thickets are not just a theoretical construct. But the Sewing Machine War also reveals how patent-owners have strong incentives to resolve patent thickets." 15:53 < kanzure> "With respect to the mechanical issue, the invention of a practical and commercially successful sewing machine comprised ten complementary elements. These ten elements were first explicitly identified by Andrew Jack in an oft-cited 1958 article: (1) the sewing of a lockstitch, (2) the use of an eye-pointed needle, (3) a shuttle carrying a second thread, (4) a continuous source of thread (spools), (5) a horizontal table, (6) an arm overhanging ... 15:53 < gradstudentbot> Sorry about that. 15:53 < kanzure> ... the table that contained a vertically positioned eye-pointed needle, (7) a continuous feed of the clothe (synchronized with the needle motion), (8) tension controls for the thread that give slack as needed, (9) a presser foot to hold the clothe in place with each stitch, and (10) the ability to sew in either straight or curved lines. The first sewing machine to incorporate all ten of these elements was the famous “Singer Sewing ... 15:53 < kanzure> ... Machine,” which was first sold to the public in the fall of 1850. But Singer was neither the first person to invent all ten elements nor was he the first to patent them." 15:54 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:58 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-212.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-212.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:07 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:18 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:18 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:43 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:20 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:34 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:40 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-212.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: No calling card for the unsung bard] 18:15 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-79-151.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:45 < kanzure> JayDugger: hi 18:46 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone. 18:48 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:51 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@60.231.178.117] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:05 < kanzure> .title http://www.nature.com/news/video-reveals-entire-organism-s-neurons-at-work-1.15240 19:05 < yoleaux> Video reveals entire organism's neurons at work 19:06 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.2964.html 19:06 < kanzure> .title 19:06 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2964 19:06 < yoleaux> Simultaneous whole-animal 3D imaging of neuronal activity using light-field microscopy 19:07 < kanzure> "Vaziri and his colleagues engineered C. elegans so that when a neuron fires and calcium ions pass through its cell membranes, the neuron lights up. To capture those signals, they imaged the whole worm using a technique called light-field deconvolution microscopy, which combines images from a set of tiny lenses and analyses them using an algorithm to give a high-resolution three-dimensional image. The researchers took as many as 50 images per ... 19:07 < kanzure> ... second of the entire worm, enabling them to watch the neurons firing in the brain, ventral cord, and tail." 19:09 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:54 -!- Adifex is now known as night 20:03 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@60.231.178.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:23 -!- MichaelMalus [~King_ofal@host-2-102-193-37.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:53 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-212.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:06 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:23 < kanzure> "Altruism: The argument for altruism is limited as an explanation because though some exists, the programmers do not focus their kindness on more charitable causes. If the generosity of working for free was a viable motivation for such a prevalent movement, it is curious why such a trend has not been seen in industries such as biotechnology that would have a much bigger impact on the public good.[32]" 21:35 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:51 -!- sapiosexual_ [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-212.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:51 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-212.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:52 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:00 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:12 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-196-61-171.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-82-63-154.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:35 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] --- Log closed Tue May 27 00:00:16 2014