--- Log opened Thu May 29 00:00:18 2014
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05:47 <@fenn> http://sun.iwu.edu/~gspaldin/TractorBeam-PRL.pdf
05:47 <@fenn> .title http://phys.org/news/2014-05-acoustic-tractor.html
05:47 < yoleaux> Researchers build acoustic tractor beam
05:47 < chris_99> wasn't there a laser based one too
05:48 <@fenn> are you thinking of "optical tweezers"?
05:48 < chris_99> ah possibly
05:48 < chris_99> yes
05:48 < chris_99> i am
05:49 <@fenn> no, you're right, there is a laser "tractor beam" that came out in 2012
05:49 <@fenn> .title http://phys.org/news/2012-10-physics-duo-tractor-dual-bessel.html
05:49 < yoleaux> Physics duo create tractor beam using dual Bessel beams
05:51 < chris_99> what's the difference between optical tweezers
05:51 < chris_99> and that
05:51 <@fenn> tweezers move left/right, but tractor beam can pull directly towards you
05:52 < chris_99> according to wiki though 'are scientific instruments that use a highly focused laser beam to provide an attractive or repulsive force' whther that's correct?
05:54 <@fenn> this is talking about moving things around in a layer of water on a microscope slide
05:54 < chris_99> mm
05:55 <@fenn> oh maybe i am wrong
05:55 <@fenn> "dielectric particles are attracted along the gradient to the region of strongest electric field, which is the center of the beam"
05:56 < dpk> .to kanzure !
05:56 < yoleaux> dpk: I'll pass your message to kanzure.
05:56 <@fenn> shouldn't that be .tell?
05:56 < chris_99> yeah that's strange heh
05:56 <@fenn> i guess it does both
05:58 <@fenn> chris_99: the illustration shows a very curved "beam waist" but in reality the waist is much more elongated and there isn't as much force holding the particle at the focal point
05:59 <@fenn> in the vertical axis i mean
05:59 < chris_99> you're talking about the 'Physics duo create tractor beam using dual Bessel beams'
05:59 < chris_99> one?
05:59 <@fenn> no i'm just talking about optic tweezers
06:00 < chris_99> oh
06:00 <@fenn> this picture in particular http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_tweezer#Physics_of_optical_tweezers
06:00 < chris_99> ah gotcha
06:01 < chris_99> so are optical tweezers something i could buy off the shelf
06:01 <@fenn> yes
06:02 < dpk> fenn: .to, .tell, and .ask are synonyms
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06:10 < nsh> .splode is a splodonym
06:18 <@fenn> this is a cute infographic http://seba.eu.org/public/netexports.jpg
06:19 < seba-> oh
06:19 < seba-> i'm popular
06:19 < seba-> lol
06:19 < seba-> fenn how the fuck did you find that
06:19 <@fenn> i am just poking around in your public directory
06:19 < seba-> oh ok
06:19 < seba-> lol
06:19 < FourFire> no wine from france?
06:19 < chris_99> heh
06:20 < FourFire> "Latvia, we have wood, no potatoe"
06:20 < FourFire> "Estland, we sell smartphone"
06:20 <@fenn> i think it's just the top category by dollar value, like israel isnt exactly known for its diamond mines
06:20 < seba-> fenn, http://seba.eu.org/public/netimports.jpg
06:20 < seba-> you have also this
06:21 <@fenn> seba are you a chemistry student or just a hobbyist?
06:22 < FourFire> so cyprus produces semiconductors, and lebanon imports tanks
06:30 < seba-> fenn, first
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06:37 <@fenn> "at least 21,000 metric tons of plastic floating in the eastern pacific" there's clear gold in them thar waters
06:40 < seba-> fenn do you study chemistry?
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06:40 < eudoxia> he's a microbiologist
06:40 <@fenn> pff
06:41 < seba-> nice
06:41 <@fenn> i draw triangles all over your boxes
06:41 < seba-> biohazard ones?
06:43 <@fenn> more like this http://isotruss.info/home.htm or this http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2013/how-to-make-big-things-out-of-small-pieces-0815
06:43 < superkuh> paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/proceeding/aipcp/10.1063/1.1449775
06:43 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Design%20and%20analysis%20of%20the%20SAFE-400%20space%20fission%20reactor.txt
06:44 < eudoxia> what was the name of that structure buckminster fuller designed that was a floating sphere?
06:44 <@fenn> cloud nine
06:45 < eudoxia> hm, orion's arm had given it another name
06:45 < eudoxia> fullairs, that's the one
06:46 < eudoxia> fenn: he should have called it 'Fullairene'
06:46 <@fenn> yeah fuller probably would not have named it that
06:46 < seba-> fenn, how do you grow insect tissure cultures
06:46 <@fenn> i have no idea
06:46 < seba-> hm
06:46 < seba-> i need to make BRAF proteins cheaply
06:46 < seba-> lol
06:47 <@fenn> i'd guess you smush a bug and digest it in trypsin for 10 minutes and plate it on polystyrene
06:47 <@fenn> yeast is a lot easier to culture
06:47 < seba-> yes, yeast is easy
06:48 < seba-> i need to cure cancer, it's on my task list
06:48 <@fenn> do you have cancer?
06:48 < seba-> no
06:48 <@fenn> then surely there are more pressing issues, like aging for example
06:48 < seba-> after that i'll make fusion energy
06:48 < seba-> yes
06:48 < seba-> also that
06:49 < seba-> while doing that i'll also develop new antibiotics, to save the world
06:49 < seba-> i'm a superhero
06:49 <@fenn> also there are more people working on cancer, the field is kinda crowded
06:49 < seba-> yes but i'm crazy, they aren't
06:49 <@fenn> i always thought phage therapy never got a fair chance
06:50 < eudoxia> 2067: WHO warns against overuse of bacteriophages
06:50 <@fenn> you know how they use super toxic chemicals to kill cancer, but only release it when near the cancer cell? you could release antibiotics from nanoparticles only in the presence of bacteria
06:50 < seba-> i have a more neat idea
06:50 <@fenn> eudoxia: nah that's the cool thing, they evolve along with the host
06:51 < seba-> fenn, targeting bacteria specific protein kinases, like they're doing on cancer
06:52 <@fenn> why would the bacterium uptake your molecule in the first place?
06:53 < seba-> fenn, apparently PKs are involved also in the process of infection
06:53 < seba-> it's like 2012+ research or some shit hm
06:53 <@fenn> since infection involves replication, everything is involved in "infection"
06:53 < seba-> well i just had this idea on monday
06:53 < seba-> anyway
06:54 < seba-> i'll cure the world
06:54 < seba-> don't worry
06:54 <@fenn> huzzah
06:54 <@fenn> how are you going to defend your newly saved world from supervillains like me
06:54 < seba-> in the worse case, i'll make nanoguns to force bacterias to swallow my compounds
06:55 <@fenn> "not only does Triangle Man hate Particle Man, who is after all just a man doing the things a particle can, but he also hates Person Man, and Person Man already has it rough enough, having been hit in the head with a frying pan and being forced to live in a garbage can."
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08:27 < kanzure> dpk: yes?
08:27 < yoleaux> 12:56Z <dpk> kanzure: !
08:30 < dpk> kanzure: yo! so, paperbot
08:30 < dpk> what needs doing?
08:30 < dpk> what's the actual (rough) plan?
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08:31 < dpk> if you want me to start porting the zotero translators to be non-Zotero-specific, happy to start doing that
08:32 < dpk> or else investigate the possibility of embedding Zotero in Node
08:35 < kanzure> well, ideally, i don't want to have to maintain zotero/firefox/gecko things for the rest of eternity
08:35 < kanzure> at the same time, i can't muster enough of my attention at the moment to convert all 300 of their translators to some other system
08:36 < dpk> you don't need all 300, though, right?
08:36 < dpk> because not all of them are for sites which keep papers
08:37 < kanzure> heh ok ood point
08:37 < kanzure> *good
08:38 < dpk> quite a lot of them aren't. 3news.co.nz.js, ARTFL Encyclopedie.js, Amazon.com.js, to name the first three i'm sure aren't academic paper repositories
08:41 < dpk> so i'm guessing, then, if you have anything for me to do it will be porting the scrapers off of Zotero, if you don't want to maintain all that shit
08:41 < kanzure> yes the tasks would be highly related to gutting the zotero dependency, but then also probably making some way for zotero to make use of the new stuff, so that their 200,000 users can maintain my stuff for me heh
08:42 < dpk> okay
08:43 < dpk> i'm happy to start working on that/working out the details of that immediately if that's okay?
08:43 < kanzure> you aren't stepping on my toes, go for it
08:43 < dpk> okay
08:44 < kanzure> papermonk was going to be my attempt https://github.com/kanzure/papermonk but i never demoed zotero compatibility
08:44 < kanzure> so it's trashworthy
08:44 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone
08:45 < kanzure> i was doing streaming html parsing stuff
08:45 < dpk> right, so i see
08:45 < kanzure> streams everywhere
08:46 < kanzure> "Information could be coded into signals and streamed anywhere, given enough energy. Streamed everywhere, this interflow of information. We could speak with the nebular brains of the galaxy. We could extend the galaxy's information ecology. We - every human being, Fravashi, oyster, sentient bacterium, virus, or seal - we could stream our collective consciousness across the two million lightyears of the intergalactic void to the information ...
08:46 < kanzure> ... ecologies of the nearer galaxies, Andromeda and Maffei and the first Leo."
08:46 < kanzure> bad joke
08:54 < dpk> hmm
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09:02 < eudoxia> one of the things i like about both zindell and cordwainer smith are the unexplained references that hint at a much greater universe outside the scope of the stories
09:04 < kanzure> STREAMS
09:06 < kanzure> http://www.dji.com/product/phantom-2-vision-plus
09:06 < kanzure> flying camera quadcopter
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09:13 < delinquentme> Why does chrome slowly sap my machine of memory?
09:13 < delinquentme> Maybe its flash.
09:15 < JayDugger> Maybe chrome extends the galactic information ecology.
09:16 < eudoxia> maybe it's mining 'coins
09:17 < JayDugger> Maybe it's auditing your system for ISO 9001-compliance.
09:18 < JayDugger> So very much ISO.
09:18 < eudoxia> maybe it's punishing me every time i don't use ISO-8601
09:25 < JayDugger> That can't be it. Everyone knows Creation happened at midnight on 01 Jan 1970 and that expressing it in ISO 8601 involves subtle heresy.
09:25 < kanzure> subtle heresy is our specialty
09:30 < JayDugger> So the number of the beast involves how leap seconds can dance on the head of a pin?
09:30 < JayDugger> (Wait..mixing metaphors?)
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09:34 <@fenn> i'm not a crypto-nerd but this seems like actual news: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/05/truecrypt_wtf.html
09:34 < kanzure> aren't you supposed to be paraonid
09:34 < kanzure> *paranoid
09:35 <@fenn> i gave up paranoia for (soy)lent
09:35 < chris_99> seems most odd indeed fenn
09:35 < chris_99> haha
09:36 <@fenn> they're out there, man http://fennetic.net/irc/cia_helicopter.mp4
09:36 <@fenn> (actually that is probably a navy helicopter, the cia ones are slimmer)
09:37 < chris_99> lol
09:37 < kanzure> pfft increase paranoia and then get back with me
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09:37 < chris_99> if i was the cia i'd make the helicopters rainbow coloured and sparkly
09:37 < chris_99> then noone would worry about them
09:39 < JayDugger> A commonly available vegetable extract, legal in Holland and two American states, will put paranoia back in your soylent.
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09:46 <@fenn> "If I developed a piece of security software, and wanted to cease development, I'd make a similar statement. "Don't use this anymore. It's not maintained, and should therefore be considered insecure".
09:46 <@fenn> Otherwise, if a vulnerability is discovered, everyone will scream: "Fix it now! Nobody told us to stop using it!""
09:48 < kanzure> wasn't the security audit suspicious or something
09:49 < kanzure> i forget the details
09:49 < kanzure> "audited by my brother"
09:50 < kanzure> //win 3
09:50 < kanzure> /win 3
09:50 < kanzure> well i'm out of ideas
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09:51 <@fenn> "audited by the NSA"
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10:01 <@fenn> "One of the most plausible theories is that the TrueCrypt developers found a gaping security hole (ala OpenSSL) and realised that releasing a fix for it would reveal the bug and compromise every TrueCrypt partition in existence, so they chose to kill the project rather than risk the safety of all of that currently encrypted data."
10:21 <@fenn> http://web.archive.org/web/*/truecrypt.org "Sorry. This URL has been excluded from the Wayback Machine."
10:22 < eudoxia> dun dun dun
10:29 < kanzure> Daeken: do you have insider info on that one
10:41 < Daeken> kanzure: i can basically assure you that there is no such stop-the-world bug; if there were, it would've been announced.  but that's the most i can say with confidence.
10:42 < kanzure> those are strong words =)
10:42 <@fenn> "there is no such bug" lol
10:42 <@fenn> i dont even know what you guys are talking about
10:43 < eudoxia> god bless this channel
10:43 < kanzure> truecrypt
10:43 <@fenn> "our software has been proven to have no bugs"
10:43 < eudoxia> fenn: zaroo boogs
10:44 <@fenn> that "phantom 2 vision" camera drone has a lot of plastic on it
10:44 < kanzure> that's how you know it's expensive
10:44 < kanzure> hey at least they show the price on the page
10:45 <@fenn> yeah, i know it's expensive by the price tag
10:45 <@fenn> the plastic just says "consumer product"
10:45 < kanzure> maybe the plastic makes wind do something.. probably not.
10:45 <@fenn> no
10:45 < Daeken> fenn: no, i don't think anyone would be silly enough to say that.  but 1) who would've found the bug?  the stage 1 audit only covered the bootloader, and stage 2 hadn't started yet. 2) even if they had no intention of fixing it, it's likely they would've announced any bug, given precedent.  3) the message in red isn't "this is insecure", it's "this must be assumed to be insecure, as it's no longer in development".
10:45 < Daeken> IMO, nothing changed between two days ago and yesterday, wrt truecrypt's security.  it hadn't been updated in two years anyway.
10:46 < kanzure> there was no source code update in two years?
10:46 <@fenn> correct
10:46 < Daeken> whatever their motivation -- whether government pressure, development fatigue, or aliens -- i don't believe that a bug factored into it.
10:47 < Daeken> it just doesn't fit the mold.
10:47 < chris_99> i don't understand what the 7.2 release is about
10:47 < Daeken> chris_99: it's a migration release.
10:47 <@fenn> there is rampant speculation that the suggestion to use BitLocker was some kind of "tell" indicating the developers were under duress
10:48 < Daeken> fenn: it's possible.  it also could be information on the suspected winner of the super bowl next year.
10:48 < kanzure> how would it be that?
10:48 < kanzure> i mean the super bowl one
10:48 < Daeken> kanzure: we have no information for either; can't we just pick and choose when we need evidence? :)
10:48 <@fenn> he's trying to advance some bertrand russell teapot argument
10:49 < kanzure> all i'm saying is you have the opportunity to help my expensive non-existing gambling habit
10:49 < Daeken> haha
10:50 <@fenn> why arent there more coanda effect drones?
10:50 < Daeken> anyway, i don't think any of it matters.  truecrypt will be forked (now that the license changed), it'll be maintained, and stage2 of the audit starts soon.
10:50 < Daeken> i've been running my own little audit of some of the code, lately.  it's not particularly well-written, but it's pretty sund.
10:50 < Daeken> s/sund/sound/
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11:25 <@fenn> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YEdHjGMeho
11:25 < yoleaux> Cookie Perfection Machine
11:26 < eudoxia> fenn: i thought it would be a machine that took the cookies that came out fucked up and fixed them
11:27  * archels pictured a CNC mill before click
11:28 < kanzure> "The FDA gave pharmaceutical company URL Pharma an exclusive marketing agreement for selling Colcrys in exchange for completing studies on Colcrys and paying the FDA a $45 million application fee. This deal effectively created a patented drug with no generic alternative. Therefore it gave the company a monopoly for the duration of the agreement. URL Pharma immediately raised the price from less than a dime to nearly $5 dollars per pill."
11:28 <@fenn> well somebody's gotta pay that $45million
11:30 < kanzure> "Please note that the following pages contain information on prescription-only drugs. Under British consumer protection law, Fresenius Kabi must not make this information accessible to individuals who are not member of the medical or pharmaceutical professions. Accordingly, we have restricted the access to the following pages and invite you to register for an user-id and a password. We assure you that registrations will be processed as soon ...
11:30 < kanzure> ... as possible. "
11:30 <@fenn> i've often been disappointed with bread makers.. you have to do all the measuring and dispensing yourself instead of just dumping in a whole 50lb bag of flour
11:30 <@fenn> kanzure: wow wtf kind of law is that?
11:35 < kanzure> i can't believe that people fall for the "without the $400M barrier to entry (patents, FDA licensing, etc), nobody will be able to raise enough money to make the xyz".. well duh. how about putting some clever thought into how to do it without spending $400M.
11:36 < kanzure> maybe people are suffering from price envy
11:37 < kanzure> "if the solution doesn't cost a lot, then i'm not interested"?
11:39 <@fenn> shouldn't be that hard to borrow $45M to pay off the FDA
11:39 <@fenn> the real problem is the consumer gets screwed BY THE FDA
11:39 < kanzure> in the context of the FDA, you usually don't borrow money
11:40 < kanzure> (it's just investment assets)
11:40 < kanzure> it's not just the consumer getting screwed, it's also the person making stuff
11:53 < kanzure> "man how am i going to remember so many 12-word brainwallet passphrases?" but wait a sec, been doing that with pokemon since forever, so why not
11:53 < kanzure> cat-on-shoulder-while-biking-guy must be laughin
11:53 < kanzure> *laughing
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12:03 <@fenn> brainwallets with no backups just seems like a really bad idea
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12:05 < kanzure> probably, yes
12:05 < kanzure> i wonder if there are multi-sig brainwallets
12:24 < seba-> ok
12:24 < seba-> testing first cultures
12:24 < seba-> in the incubator
12:24 < seba-> yay
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12:25 < kanzure> where are your samples from?
12:28 < FourFire> seba-, crushed insects?
12:28 < seba-> no, lactobacillus
12:28 < seba-> :D
12:28 < chris_99> whatcha planning on doing with it
12:28 < FourFire> Oh yeah and I recommend that you focus on aging research over cancer research
12:29 < kanzure> approx. how many cancer deaths could be prevented by whole brain removal?
12:29 < FourFire> there are so many people working on it, and so much funding that it's diminishing returns compared to less focused areas, like gerontology
12:30 < seba-> chris_99, trying to determine if there are any alive cultures in a probiotic
12:30 < seba-> lol
12:30 < FourFire> kanzure, most of the ones which aren't brain cancer and leukemia, i guess
12:30 < chris_99> aha, do you use some kind of blue dye for that, seba-
12:31 < seba-> no why
12:31 < FourFire> if you had somewhere to put the brains, that is
12:31 < chris_99> it stains dead cells
12:32 < seba-> chris_99, i'll just grow and count colonies
12:32 < seba-> lol
12:33 < chris_99> aha
12:33 < kanzure> seba-: you should trick your gf into hanging out in here
12:33 < kanzure> tell her it's educational
12:33 < seba-> why
12:33 < kanzure> and totally not illegal
12:33 < seba-> :p
12:33 < kanzure> because bio people are helpful
12:34 < seba-> lol
12:34 < kanzure> lab trained, right?
12:36 < seba-> what do you mean
12:36 < seba-> she has a MSc in food tech, but her work was on mol. bio mainly, she's considering now a PhD in biotech
12:38 < kanzure> cool
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13:10 < delinquentme> hue.
13:11 < gradstudentbot> I don't think our fume hood is safe.
13:16 < Mokstar> is that because of the pile of dead undergrads nearby?
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13:39 < jrayhawk_> g
13:39 < jrayhawk_> whoops
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14:11 < kanzure> "'<redacted> provided me with your name as a person who might be able to help SPARC with a brief document. Over the last few months of meeting with elected officials in Washington, DC, a conversation has emerged between policymakers and advocates (namely SPARC) with regard to the lengths small business, start-ups, recent graduates, etc. have to go to in order to get access to journal articles. Due to the extraordinary high cost of ...
14:11 < kanzure> ... subscriptions and per page charges, they hire college interns, pay students for access and ask around for .pdf copies of the article. Without the information, they are not able to innovate, grow their businesses, etc. We have received some requests to get in writing the lengths that these companies/individuals go to in order to get information because they can't afford to purchase the articles and how it has, in essence, created a 'black ...
14:11 < kanzure> ... market for scholarly journals'.  Graham -- does this seem like something you would you be able to do?' "
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14:12 <@fenn> OMG CENSORSHIPBBQ
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14:13 < kanzure> yeah i am not sure i understand this email
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14:13 < kanzure> someone is reporting to the open-science mailing list that.. someone sent him this quote.. that someone was invited to washington.. about something?
14:13 < kanzure> like who the fuck cares?
14:13 <@fenn> they want to say "look at all the silly shit we have to do to get paperz" and get congressmen outraged, because "innovation" or something is more important than science
14:14 <@fenn> jobs jobs jobs
14:14 < kanzure> but SPARC is a publisher
14:14 <@fenn> .wik SPARC
14:14 < yoleaux> "SPARC (from "scalable processor architecture") is a RISC instruction set architecture (ISA) developed by Sun Microsystems and introduced in mid-1987." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARC
14:14 < kanzure> the other SPARC
14:14 <@fenn> i dont know this other
14:14 < kanzure> http://www.sparc.arl.org/
14:15 < kanzure> oh hm
14:15 <@fenn> an international alliance of academic and research libraries working to create a more open system of scholarly communication. The Scholarly Publishing and Academic Resources Coalition (SPARC)
14:15 < kanzure> could mean anything :p
14:15 <@fenn> yay doublespeak
14:15 <@fenn> maybe we should name activist organizations "Nazi Sympathizers for a more Fascist State Dystopia"
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14:17 <@fenn> ugh too many acronyms colliding here
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14:20 < kanzure> "international alliance" "we send emails to each other sometimes, maybe"
14:21 <@fenn> so is SPARC the "union of libraries" i was ranting about? their "reasons for membership" looks incredibly wussy
14:21 <@fenn> "engage effectively with others on campus"? wtf
14:21 <@fenn> i'm reading this as "how to placate hippies"
14:21 < kanzure> i don't think a union would be able to make much of an impact these days because all of the lock-up decisions were already made
14:22 <@fenn> 100 universities threatening to boycott your journals would make a publisher think twice about raising rates
14:22 < kanzure> and now there are lots of inertial reasons that "altmetrics" haven't caught on yet
14:22 <@fenn> http://sparc.arl.org/membership/current-members
14:23 < kanzure> ugh we should find a library nerd
14:23 < kanzure> dpk: do you know someone in #code4lib that would be appropriate
14:24 < kanzure> joepie91__: or you
14:25 <@fenn> 186 universities on that list
14:25  * joepie91__ spontaneously combusts
14:25 < joepie91__> sorry, what was the question?
14:26 <@fenn> someone to testify to congress about how they steal papers?
14:26 < kanzure> no, an irc librarian junkie that can explain to us why they roll over for all the publishers
14:26 < joepie91__> um
14:26  * joepie91__ thinks
14:26 <@fenn> flunkie*
14:26 < kanzure> preferably someone that helps run an academic library somewhere that pays subscriptions
14:26 < kanzure> yeah, a flunkie would be great
14:26 < joepie91__> damnit, I actually know somebody like that, but I can't for the life of me recall his name
14:26 < joepie91__> well, kind of like that
14:26 < joepie91__> he can do the explaining part
14:27 < joepie91__> but... argh
14:27  * joepie91__ hates his memory sometimes
14:27 <@fenn> try piracetam
14:27 <@fenn> 5 grams a day
14:27 <@fenn> oh it's like illegal in europe isn't it
14:28 < joepie91__> kanzure: I don't think I;m going to recall this name; you can try spamming #archiveteam-bs
14:28 < joepie91__> I'd wager there's somebody there who might have a lead
14:28 < joepie91__> fenn: my memory problems aren't of a memory-failing nature, really - I've just optimized my memory to remember stuff that isn't names and other 'loose' data
14:29 <@fenn> BANNED by the .nl equivalent of the FDA
14:29 < joepie91__> which works great... most of the time
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14:30 <@fenn> joepie91__: what's the square root of 2?
14:30 < joepie91__> 1.something, no?
14:30  * joepie91__ is not a maths person
14:30 <@fenn> eh. you get a C for effort
14:31 < joepie91__> that's better than a C++ anyway
14:31 < joepie91__> :)
14:32 <@fenn> here's a steaming cup of java for your efforts
14:32 <@fenn> s/cup/pile/
14:32 < pasky> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=321884
14:32 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F321879.321884
14:33 < joepie91__> fenn: uncertain at this point whether you are refering to the coffee (good) or platform (bad)
14:36 < gradstudentbot> My study reveals that people are awesome at memorizing insecure passwords.
14:36 <@fenn> "it's as if you took a really nice gourmet meal and a pile of dog shit and blended it up so thoroughly that you couldn't discern the good from the bad"
14:38 <@fenn> what is this quote from? i think it's douglas hofstadter reviewing "the singularity is near"
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14:41 <@fenn> from http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/douglas-r-hofstadter "f you read Ray Kurzweil's books and Hans Moravec's, what I find is that it's a very bizarre mixture of ideas that are solid and good with ideas that are crazy. It's as if you took a lot of very good food and some dog excrement and blended it all up so that you can't possibly figure out what's good or bad. It's an intimate
14:41 <@fenn> mixture of rubbish and good ideas, and it's very hard to disentangle the two, because these are smart people; they're not stupid."
14:42 < kanzure> ray kurzweil was just monetizing the private extropians mailing list. naturally, he couldn't find any editors that were capable of sorting out the good from the bad because none of his editors had access to the original source.
14:42 < kanzure> also hans moravec was on that mailing list back in the day
14:42 <@fenn> do you have any copies of this "private" extropians list?
14:42 < kanzure> all of the ideas are really coming from like 3-4 people that nobody will name because they are gay
14:43 < kanzure> *they are being gay
14:43 <@fenn> huh
14:43 < kanzure> well it's like any other community, power law distribution, someone writes 100000 emails, the rest write 2-10
14:43 <@fenn> well sure, but why not credit the original author
14:43 < kanzure> i don't have copies of of 198x-1993
14:43 < kanzure> because "privacy"
14:44 <@fenn> why was it a private list?
14:44 <@fenn> and what does that mean anyway?
14:44 < kanzure> "because how else are we going to get marvin minsky and hans moravec to participate? it's a pay-to-play private invite-only mailing list, so you should obviously accept our humblest invitation blah blah blah"
14:45 <@fenn> sure i have been on lists like that and it never seems to be worth keeping private
14:45 < kanzure> this is why venor vinge appeared to have popped out of nowhere with fully-formed ideas heh
14:45 <@fenn> O RLY
14:45 < kanzure> well, it was also partly "the great internet rush to get everything written down in electronic form" that eventually calmed down
14:45 <@fenn> maybe geoffrey landis has copies
14:46 < kanzure> i asked richard stallman once and he pointed me to someone who now works at google and ignored me
14:46 < kanzure> for some reason it was hosted on gnu servers or something
14:46 < kanzure> anyway here's some crap i dug up http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/extropians/
14:47 < kanzure> "118002 messages sorted by: [ author ] [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ attachment ]" ugh
14:47 <@fenn> what does max more say?
14:47 < kanzure> back in 2010 he gave me access to his house (often) and i raided him and took everything he has, he doesn't have anything else
14:48 < kanzure> or maybe 2011. hrm.
14:48 < kanzure> lots and lots of floppy disks
14:48 < kanzure> none of it has the private stuff
14:49 <@fenn> extropian tomb raider :P
14:49 <@fenn> uncover the secrets of the lost arc!
14:49 < kanzure> the farther back in time you go the more interesting the content
14:49 < kanzure> it is a very weird anomaly
14:49 <@fenn> certainly it dates to the 1969 singularity
14:50 <@fenn> an inverse time-like machine elf intelligence
14:50 <@fenn> we should have a terrence mckenna markov chain bot
14:52 < kanzure> huh, wikipedia says "Sociologist James Hughes is the most militant critic of libertarian transhumanism" now i have evidence, it says so right here in the superbook
14:53 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_transhumanism
14:53 < kanzure> anywho, the extropians mailing list back then was strongly based on libertarian philosophy stuff that max more was spinning
14:53 < kanzure> which phil and others have mentioned to me as the reason for why it was a pay-to-play operation (but i dunno if i buy that)
14:54 <@fenn> a pay for access mailing list running on gnu servers?
14:54 <@fenn> that right there is a significant accomplishment
14:54 < kanzure> well open source institute was funded by foresight institute, the world is stranger than i can explain
14:55 <@fenn> wow there's a whole series on wikipedia
14:55 <@fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Transhumanism
14:56 < kanzure> the irony of that, plus the irony of extropians originally hanging out around GNU nerds, makes it hard to believe how so few transhumanists are at all bedazzled by open source software as a mode of production of their technologies
14:56 <@fenn> i'm not sure what you're saying by that
14:57 < kanzure> it is ironic that nobody knew what gnu was
14:57 < kanzure> you would think the gnu people would have hit them over the head with a clue stick
14:57 < kanzure> since they do that to everyone else anyway
14:57 <@fenn> i'm sure they ran a lot of mailing lists on that server
14:58 < kanzure> writing emails is the wrong idea anyway, blah
14:58 < kanzure> vernor vinge's supercivilization thing spanned 20 light years for the sole purpose of writing intergalactic electronic mail and navelgazing
14:59 <@fenn> streams, man
14:59 <@fenn> duuude
14:59 <@fenn> aliens could be emailing us right now
14:59 < kanzure> brainwallets
15:00 <@fenn> think of all the intergalactic spam we could be getting
15:01 < kanzure> SETI is just trying to find the signal among the spam
15:01 <@fenn> "greetings earthling, i am the royal heir to abujamalaka abukweilin, regent of the mists. i have in my possession 30,000,000 proto sentient algorithms, and need your assistance to expatriate them"
15:04 < kanzure> nobody really liked my "remove the technology component from patents" idea
15:06 <@fenn> i love how the "Criticisms" section of "Libertarian Transhumanism" is longer than the rest of the article
15:06 < kanzure> the transhumanism articles have long been trolled by some guy named Lsomething on wikipedia
15:06 < kanzure> so he's written his influence into basically everything
15:06 < kanzure> this has been going on since about 2007
15:06 <@fenn> Luddite?
15:06 < kanzure> no
15:06 < kanzure> has an o in it
15:06 <@fenn> Loser?
15:07 < gradstudentbot> The protocol is wrong.
15:08 < kanzure> loremaster
15:08 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Loremaster&offset=&limit=500&target=Loremaster
15:11 -!- AshleyWaffle_ is now known as AshleyWaffle
15:13 <@fenn> well obviously the CIA mind control program is simply an extension of the illuminati transhumanist conspiracy
15:15 < kanzure> natasha once called me up to complain about loremaster reverting her edits (he's reverted some of mine too, but he had good reason in my case)
15:19 < kanzure> this is all boring
15:21 <@fenn> "since biotechnology increasingly allows humans to control their own evolution, it may allow humans to alter human nature, thereby putting liberal democracy at risk" OH NOES
15:21 <@fenn> not liberal democracy!
15:21 < kanzure> boring
15:22 < kanzure> blargh well here's a reason to finally learn me some haskell https://github.com/dogestreet/proxypool
15:24 <@fenn> why do you care about dogecoin?
15:24 < kanzure> i care about stratum
15:25 < kanzure> https://github.com/slush0/stratum-mining
15:25 <@fenn> all this stuff appeared during the year that i was asleep, but i probably wouldn't have learned about it anywaay
15:26 < kanzure> it's the closest thing to finding alien technology that you can get access to
15:26 <@fenn> but it doesn't do anything that i want
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15:26 <@fenn> its like alien porn
15:27 <@fenn> look at the tentacles on that puppy
15:28 < kanzure> you may be interested in looking at opentransactions or ripple
15:29 <@fenn> not right now
15:29 < kanzure> opentransactions doesn't do mining
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15:36 <@fenn> ugh that transhumanism article gave me a headache
15:40 < poppingtonic> which one?
15:40 < poppingtonic> There are so many these days I can't even
15:44 < justanotheruser> poppingtonic: the one posted on reddit
15:46 <@fenn> wtf who are you people
15:47 <@fenn> i was talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism
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15:52 < poppingtonic> "Epic of Gilgamesh" -> "Mundane of Gilgamesh"
15:52 < poppingtonic> use Downworthy, people.
15:53 < poppingtonic> fenn: how come?
15:53 <@fenn> now The Onion can retire
15:54 <@fenn> poppingtonic: not important, nevermind, go do something useful please
15:55 < poppingtonic> okdk
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16:04 < kanzure> fenn, wait why did you read it
16:05 <@fenn> i am weak
16:06 < kanzure> do you mean tired
16:07 <@fenn> no, i mean i've had "run brl-cad" as my goal for three days now and failed to even start on it
16:07 < kanzure> why were you going to run brlcad?
16:07 <@fenn> because i forget what it is like
16:08 <@fenn> i have a cad project i want to sketch out
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16:08 < kanzure> solidworks has completely corrupted me. the lack of sketching in brlcad is a real problem. it would be better if 'extrude an imported sketch' was a feature but it's not.
16:09 < kanzure> i don't often think of mechanical things as the intersection of a rhombus and an intractazoid, but rather "the revolution of a curve that roughly looks like this"
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16:16 < kanzure> there could be a brlcad irc bot that accepts csg operations and renders the result to image. each image would have an id corresponding to state, and you type the id when you manipulate the state.
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16:24 <@fenn> pretty sure you can extrude things in brlcad
16:27 <@fenn> i remember extruding an imported DXF because i hated the built-in sketch editor
16:27 < kanzure> there's no mk_extrude function
16:27 < kanzure> and i couldn't get < brlcad> to figure me out a way to use 'extrude' at the prompt for sketches...
16:27 < kanzure> ("oh, you might have to implement that yourself")
16:28 < kanzure> (well that's cool, but, how the hell is anyone else using this)
16:28 <@fenn> unfortunately all the documentation is in PDF format
16:30 <@fenn> hmm i want to make something similar to that "tire" script http://brlcad.org/w/images/4/4f/Vehicle_Tire_and_Wheel_Creation_in_BRL-CAD.pdf
16:30 < kanzure> it's curious that tcl is also heavily integrated into opencascade
16:30 < kanzure> tcl must have been the bee's knees for cad people that hated lisp
16:31 < kanzure> blah that's a tire command
16:31 < kanzure> kanzure@rightnow$ which tire
16:31 < kanzure> /usr/brlcad/bin/tire
16:31 < kanzure> why do i have this
16:32 <@fenn> it seems strange that there is documentation for the command but no explanation of how it was made or what it does exactly
16:32 <@fenn> "a wild tire appears!"
16:33 < kanzure> obv. an internal project
16:34 <@fenn> says it uses torus, cylinder, cone, and "sketch and extrude primitives"
16:34 <@fenn> for the tread
16:35 < kanzure> ./src/archer/plugins/Wizards/tirewizard.tcl
16:35 < kanzure> ./src/archer/plugins/Wizards/tirewizard/TireWizard.tcl
16:35 < kanzure> ./src/shapes/tire.c ./src/libged/tire.c dunno which one
16:36 < kanzure> ./src/libged/tire.c is 2122 lines..
16:36 <@fenn> oh yeah this is great syntax: in cube.s arb8 5 5 0 8 5 0 8 5 3 5 5 3 5 8 0 8 8 0 8 8 3 5 8 3
16:36 <@fenn> jesus christ
16:36 < kanzure> "MakeTire is the "top level" tire generation function - it is responsible for managing the matrices"
16:37 <@fenn> that is supposed to be the second thing a newbie types in?
16:39 <@fenn> http://brlcad.org/xref/source/src/archer/plugins/Wizards/  presumably one can add more scripts as desired
16:40 <@fenn> i think the tcl stuff is just the GUI that calls the tire command
16:40 <@fenn> which is compiled from tire.c
16:41 < kanzure> oops, sorry i was trying to tell you that
16:41 < kanzure> by the whole 2122 lines comment thing
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16:42 <@fenn> that's unfortunate. you shouldn't have to write C to do what is obviously a scripting operation
16:43 <@fenn> ok this is totally ridiculous
16:45 <@fenn> well anyway libged/tire.c calls MakeExtrude
16:45 <@fenn> "Extrusion Creation Routines for Tire Tread Patterns - makes sketch and uses sketch to make extrusion"
16:46 < kanzure> MakeExtrude is defined in tire.c
16:46 <@fenn> :(
16:46 < kanzure> /* Make first slanted extrusion for depth vs. width of tread effect */
16:46 < kanzure> mk_extrusion(file, bu_vls_addr(&str2), bu_vls_addr(&str), V, h, u_vec, v_vec, 0);
16:46 <@fenn> my GSoC contribution is to copypaste MakeExtrude
16:47 < kanzure> it is tire-specific
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16:48 <@fenn> is mk_extrusion not what you want?
16:48 < gradstudentbot> I had to remind my professor who I was today.
16:49 < kanzure> i forget
16:56 <@fenn> hmm. "extruded bitmap primitive"
16:58 < kanzure> not promising
16:59 <@fenn> maybe i am remembering openscad
17:00 <@fenn> "BRLCAD works fine with Qcad's .dxf file.we can extrude and revolve .dxf file in BRLCAD"
17:01 < kanzure> btw, pythonocc works with opencascade-community-edition just fine
17:02 < kanzure> (i mean, when compiled with those headers, not mismatching etc)
17:03 <@fenn> this seems to imply that extruding a dxf should work (mailing list post by sean morrison) http://brl-cad.996283.n3.nabble.com/Making-cog-wheel-in-BRL-CAD-A-small-correction-td9694.html
17:04 <@fenn> i'm not sure what all the patch stuff is about
17:06 < kanzure> i wasn't extruding a dxf, just trying to extrude a sketch i made in their terrible sketchterface
17:06 <@fenn>  In BRL-CAD is not such shape out there, right?
17:06 <@fenn> Not as an implicit object, but you could describe one with NURBS surfaces, sketch+extrude objects, and volumetric or extruded bitmap geometry (albeit aliased).
17:06 <@fenn> yeah he says the sketch interface sucks
17:07 <@fenn> The GUI sketch editor in mged isn't the easiest to use but does work.  You have to select the "create" button for every arc, curve, line you indend to create.  The status line should give some basic instructions on how to use it. Alternatively, you could use a 2D editor like qcad to make your dxf, then import that as a sketch into BRL-CAD.
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17:09 < kanzure> well, whatever, i think the openscad people are also importing dxf sketches
17:09 < kanzure> i suppose i should add some helper methods for that to python-brlcad
17:09 < kanzure> and get rid of the stupid wdb-file-only stuff (it should be in-memory wdb stuff that gets dumped to file-wdb when the user asks, not for every operation...)
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17:22 < delinquentme> kanzure, have you looked into any of the positions @ autocad for these bio applications?
17:22 < delinquentme> like working alongside andrew hessell ?
17:26 < kanzure> nope
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18:11 < kanzure> "I originally designed Stratum protocol for lightweight Bitcoin client called Electrum. Later I found out that protocol requirements are quite similar to requirements for bitcoin mining, so I decided to reuse it as-is."
18:11 < kanzure> oh, that explains a lot
18:13 < joepie91__> LOL
18:13 < joepie91__> my archive.org upload of the PPcoin paper
18:13 < joepie91__> is mentioned in the Cornell paper about that attack on the Bitcoin network
18:13 < joepie91__> I'm not sure how that happened, did the original vanish or something?
18:16 < kanzure> yikes
18:16 < kanzure> also, it is nice to have fast service :) https://github.com/CaptEmulation/stratum-proxy/issues/1
18:17 < joepie91__> apparently the original -did- vanish
18:17  * joepie91__ adds another strike to his tally-keeping board of archived things that turned out to be necessary within his lifetime
18:18 < joepie91__> kanzure: indeed, I've had a similar fast-reply experience with brackets-git and pdf.js
18:18 < joepie91__> it's really quite pleasant :D
18:18 < kanzure> ARCHIVE EVERYTHING
18:19 <@fenn> so how does this WARC thing work
18:19 < kanzure> the stratum protocol specification was in a google docs link somewhere, but nobody has the google docs link anymore
18:19 < kanzure> rescued to http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ a few minutes ago
18:20 < joepie91__> kanzure: relatedly, it looks like a lot of people lost the manual for their shredder: https://archive.org/details/UnitedOfficeUAV380A1Manual
18:20 < joepie91__> (Downloads: 201)
18:20 < kanzure> download counters can be inflated due to search engines
18:21 < joepie91__> kanzure: I know, but 1. afaik archive.org ignores bots, and 2. it's only inflated for a few items, not for all of my items
18:21 < joepie91__> which leads me to presume that these are actual humans
18:21 < joepie91__> or at least life-like bots
18:21 < kanzure> it is very hard to stay ahead of the wave of bots
18:21 < kanzure> but the irony of shredding the manual as your first task is not lost on me
18:21 < joepie91__> hahaha
18:21 < joepie91__> well that explains everything :P
18:21 < kanzure> well doesn't it?
18:21 < joepie91__> "well, let's see if this thing wor- eh, right, okay, it does... um..."
18:22 <@fenn> http://www.collection.archivist.info has quite a lot of old equipment manuals
18:22 < joepie91__> this is the list I'm going by, btw: https://archive.org/search.php?query=uploader%3A%22admin%40cryto.net%22%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts&sort=-downloads
18:22 < joepie91__> for the download counts
18:22 < joepie91__> fenn: bookmarked for future archival/mirroring
18:22 <@fenn> you may wish to ask archivist (here on freenode) first
18:23 < kanzure> i should get #archiveteam people to grab a copy of all the soviet patents
18:24 <@fenn> indeed, i don't trust that site to stay alive
18:24 < joepie91__> fenn: failing to locate download button
18:24 < joepie91__> also, asking? that's a thing? :o
18:24 <@fenn> oh sorry this must be a paper catalog
18:24 <@fenn> of dead trees
18:25 < joepie91__> it appears to be just a catalog, yeah
18:25 <@fenn> or might not be available for download due to bandwidth constraints
18:25 < joepie91__> that's where archive.org would hlp
18:25 < joepie91__> help *
18:25 < joepie91__> free bandwidht :D
18:25 < joepie91__> minus spurious 't'
18:26 < joepie91__> okay
18:26 < joepie91__> so
18:26 < joepie91__> fenn: you asked about WARC, what specifically is your questiton
18:26  * joepie91__ realizes he is neglecting backlog
18:26 <@fenn> i have a lot of wget -rk -np mirrors for personal use
18:27 <@fenn> i don't really know what archive.org considers useful
18:27 <@fenn> there are sites like patentdb.su for example that would be good to preserve in toto
18:27 <@fenn> i mean 100% crawling
18:28 < kanzure> mitmproxy also has a custom archiving format
18:28 < joepie91__> basically, if you archive a website, always use --warc-file, it's in upstream wget nowadays
18:28 <@fenn> archive.org doesn't have the personnel resources to determine what is worth crawling, so presumably people should be able to crawl and submit their data
18:28 < joepie91__> even on Debian iirc
18:28 < joepie91__> yes-ish
18:29 < joepie91__> okay, so
18:29 < joepie91__> how it works in a few concise points:
18:29 < joepie91__> for crawled data to be ingested into the wayback machine, it MUST be in WARC format
18:29 < joepie91__> no other formats are supported
18:29 <@fenn> how do i see what's inside a WARC file? normally i can just look at the files to see if they have been downloaded
18:29 < joepie91__> uploaded WARCs are not automatically added to the wayback, but if you've uploaded one or more and you poke jason scott / sketchcow, he'll add them for you
18:29 < joepie91__> there's a basic warc viewer
18:30 < joepie91__> but you can also just open it in a text editor
18:30 < joepie91__> (you'll want to de-gzip first)
18:30 <@fenn> but it's probably not text
18:30 < joepie91__> it's a text-based format
18:30 <@fenn> so how is a jpeg stored in a text file?
18:30 < joepie91__> I -think-, from memory, that it takes an approach like PDF
18:30 < joepie91__> where the format itself is text
18:30 < joepie91__> but can contain binary streams
18:31 < joepie91__> if you want to look at the contents more in-depth, you could use a warc viewer
18:31 < joepie91__> or set up warc proxy
18:31 <@fenn> how can i verify that the WARC contains what i expect it to?
18:31 < joepie91__> aside from looking at the wget log, use warc viewer or warc proxy
18:31 < joepie91__> moment, hitting swap
18:32 <@fenn> heh
18:32 < joepie91__> oh
18:32 <@fenn> i just got some super-ultra-high-speed flash memory sticks to extend my swap space
18:32 < joepie91__> apparently somebody went through the efforts to compile an overview of the WARC ecosystem, so I don't have to
18:32 < joepie91__> awesome
18:32 < joepie91__> http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=The_WARC_Ecosystem
18:33 < joepie91__> theres another experimental WARC viewer
18:33 < joepie91__> stand-alone
18:33 < joepie91__> but I can't find it off-hand
18:33 <@fenn> .g citogenesis
18:33 < yoleaux> http://xkcd.com/978/
18:34 < joepie91__> oh, there we go
18:34 < joepie91__> fenn: https://github.com/odie5533/WarcQtViewer
18:34 < joepie91__> (despite appearances, it's theoretically cross-platform)
18:36 < joepie91__> as an archivist, you're generally fine with adding --warc-file=something to your wget flags and optionally verifying with warcproxy
18:36 < joepie91__> just upload to IA, bother jason scott, and all should be fine
18:36 <@fenn> the "proxy" looks useful
18:36 < joepie91__> also
18:36 < joepie91__> [03:27] <@fenn> i don't really know what archive.org considers useful
18:36 < joepie91__> anything and everything
18:36 < joepie91__> pretty much
18:37 <@fenn> is there a plan for how to deal with content that is only accessible by javascript?
18:37 < joepie91__> idea being that right now you don't really know what's going to be useful/missed in the future, so you might as well grab it all
18:37 < joepie91__> uhm, yes and no
18:37 <@fenn> i realize it's a difficult conceptual problem
18:37 < joepie91__> heritrix is somewhat okay at dealing with javascript, better than wget anyway (iirc)
18:37 < joepie91__> other than that, archiveteam tends to write custom scraper pipelines to deal with JS-heavy sites
18:37 < joepie91__> when they're archived because of a shutdown
18:40 <@fenn> what about WARC files that ignore robots.txt?
18:41 < kanzure> i use a custom webkit thing for js stuff when i don't want to reverse engineer the website
18:41 < joepie91__> fenn: there's an ignore robots flag for wget
18:42 < joepie91__> I use it by default
18:42 < kanzure> sometimes that's phantomjs but often now it's just python + webkit https://gist.github.com/kanzure/6581415
18:42 <@fenn> right, but does archive.org accept them
18:42 < joepie91__> sure
18:42 < joepie91__> wayback won't show stuff protected by a robots.txt... but seeing as domains tend to expire, that eventually solves itself
18:42 <@fenn> i see
18:42 < joepie91__> and the WARC is always downloadable
18:42 < kanzure> hmm i thought it was robots.txt at the time of crawling
18:42 < joepie91__> kanzure: crawling time robots.txt behaviour is hit-or-miss
18:43 < joepie91__> I think it depends on whether it was crawled without robots.txt before
18:43 < joepie91__> but I'm not sure
18:43 < joepie91__> and I'm not sure anybody knows the criteria
18:43 < joepie91__> lol
18:43 < joepie91__> I just know that if you submit a WARC that ignores robots.txt, it'll start showing up when the robots.txt is gone
18:43 < kanzure> say it was crawled, no robots.txt, some asshole updates the site adds robots.txt (or buys the domain); can the robots.txt in the future make the old content available
18:44 < joepie91__> the robots.txt in the future can make the old content unavailable
18:44 < joepie91__> or available
18:44 < kanzure> both?
18:44 < joepie91__> it always polls current robots.txt
18:44 < kanzure> hm i see
18:44 < joepie91__> so whatever current robots.txt says, goes
18:44 <@fenn> that's kinda nonsensical
18:44 < kanzure> that's great (and also shit)
18:44 < joepie91__> fenn: it is
18:44 < joepie91__> :P
18:44 < kanzure> but at least it means old stuff can be eventually dumped
18:44 < gradstudentbot> Dude, you contaminated my experiment.
18:44 < joepie91__> no data is ever deleted, though
18:45 <@fenn> where is all this stored anyway? only in san francisco? or is it replicated?
18:45 < joepie91__> fenn: primary storage in SF, partial mirrors in Amsterdam and Egypt
18:46 < joepie91__> Egypt mirror being wherever new lib of alexandria is
18:46 < joepie91__> so yeah, all of it in disaster zones basically
18:46 < kanzure> there is a library of alexandria 2?
18:46 < joepie91__> :P
18:46 < joepie91__> apparently
18:46 < kanzure> i'm sure it's DRMed or some shit
18:46 < kanzure> fucking librarians
18:46  * fenn mumbles something about fortress of solitude in antarctica
18:47 < joepie91__> fenn: heh.
18:47 < joepie91__> guess what the usual drop server is named
18:47 < joepie91__> for archiveteam stuff
18:47 <@fenn> svalbard seed bank is a great idea except for the seeds
18:48 < joepie91__> (fos.textfiles.com)
18:51 <@fenn> weird file extensions on these old text files http://textfiles.com/100/
18:51 < joepie91__> fenn: that's HISTORY you're looking at! HISTORY! in FILE EXTENSIONS!
18:51 <@fenn> it's like how people used to spell words however they liked
18:52 < joepie91__> wrods
18:52 <@fenn> 'ye grande treatise onne opticks'
18:53 < gradstudentbot> Still haven't cured cancer.
19:03 < kanzure> i think the reason why that robots.txt policy is in place is because everyone demands that they remove content from the wayback archives, or make it inaccessible,
19:03 < kanzure> and then they never check if their site disappearing changes that
19:04 < kanzure> so as a result they only exert a legal pressure on censoring content, until they stop caring / die, etc.
19:04 <@fenn> sounds fine to me
19:04 <@fenn> i'm more concerned with x.com goes down, fanatic buys domain name and changes robots.txt to exclude all urls from wayback machine
19:05 < kanzure> dunno why you care that much about paypal
19:05 <@fenn> not literally x.com
19:05 <@fenn> let's say lucifer.com for example
19:06 < kanzure> for how rickety that server is, it's been around forever and david doesn't seem to let it die
19:06 <@fenn> now all of a sudden you can't access archives of wta-talk or whatever
19:08 < kanzure> not a big loss
19:08 <@fenn> man that NASA NTRS thing really chaps my ass
19:09 <@fenn> they removed so much stuff that was completely harmless
19:09 < kanzure> oh yeah
19:09 <@fenn> the one thing a library is supposed to do is NOT DELETE DATA
19:10 < superkuh> BlackPhoenix has the most complete mirror of it that I am aware of.
19:10 < superkuh> (here on freenode)
19:11 <@fenn> i remember him, smart guy
19:11 < joepie91__> (archive ALL the things)
19:12 <@fenn> joepie91__: everyone can't archive everything, you'll end up with infinite regress, but before that it's o(n^2)
19:12 < joepie91__> fenn: stop it, you're breaking my brain :(
19:12 <@fenn> all i'm saying is we need libraries
19:14 <@fenn> ah yes, ukraine, the best place to preserve NASA's digital heritage
19:14 <@fenn> where is freenet when you need it
19:16 < joepie91__> fenn: where it usually is; somewhere inbetween "it probably exists, somewhere" and "oh there it is"
19:18 <@fenn> joepie91__: if blackphoenix comes through with teh reportz would archive be able/willing to host them? (supposedly they were removed because of possible ITAR violations/cost of having to go through and look at everything to make sure it doesn't violate ITAR)
19:19 <@fenn> it should all be public domain
19:22 <@fenn> ugh these new TLDs are killing me
19:25 <@fenn> joepie91__: do you know what http://archive.today is?
19:25 < joepie91__> fenn: it's what used to be archive.is
19:25 < joepie91__> they switched TLD for whatever reason
19:25 < joepie91__> as for reports... which reports?
19:26 <@fenn> nasa technical reports from the nasa technical reports server which were pulled a couple years ago when some congressmen freaked out that "the chinese" could access "missile technology" or something
19:28 < joepie91__> oh
19:28 < joepie91__> well
19:28 < joepie91__> you can upload them to archive.org
19:28 < joepie91__> they might get darked if there's abusemail
19:28 < joepie91__> but they won't be removed
19:29 < kanzure> darked content is useless to me
19:29 < joepie91__> where 'darked' means "not publicly accessible but still archived"
19:29 < kanzure> you might as well say removed
19:29 < kanzure> there's very little difference
19:29 < joepie91__> kanzure: not really
19:29 < kanzure> what's the point if i can't use it
19:29 < joepie91__> for a commercial file host, yes
19:29 < joepie91__> for a long-term archival project, no
19:29 < joepie91__> the point is archival
19:29 < kanzure> i can't use the content when i'm dead
19:29 < joepie91__> there's a significant difference between removed and existing but not currently accessible, when you're talking about long-term archiving
19:30 < kanzure> and others shouldn't get to just because i didn't
19:30 < kanzure> is there a list of which content is not accessible?
19:30 <@fenn> i'm also quite unclear on all this privacy stuff, when we're talking about living forever
19:31 < joepie91__> kanzure: not that I know of
19:31 <@fenn> the federal government may get marginalized to the point of unenforceability.. when will "darked" material be released to the public?
19:32 <@fenn> joepie91__: have you read snow crash?
19:32 < kanzure> censored
19:32 < kanzure> just say censored :\
19:32 < kanzure> or revoked? i don't even know. dark is the wrong word.
19:32 < joepie91__> kanzure: it's called darked because it's a dark archive
19:32 <@fenn> maybe "darked" should only be used when it's actually available on a darknet
19:32 < joepie91__> fenn: I have not
19:33 <@fenn> you should read snow crash, and anathem
19:33 <@fenn> er, whoops i meant the diamond age
19:33 <@fenn> it's all the same story
19:33 < joepie91__> I'll grab them on my ereader, sec :P
19:33 <@fenn> cryptonomicon begins in WWII and goes through the 1990s
19:34 <@fenn> now i forget which book is which
19:34 < joepie91__> btw, does this channel have the equivalent of [off]?
19:34 <@fenn> no
19:34 < kanzure> no
19:34 < joepie91__> k
19:34 <@fenn> blame kanzure
19:35  * joepie91__ blames kanzure 
19:35 <@fenn> blame!
19:35 < kanzure> better than all the other private transhumanist channels. those are all fucking dead.
19:35 <@fenn> what's the most illegal thing we could talk about
19:36 < joepie91__> meth,obviously
19:36 <@fenn> treason? assassination? dispersing weapons of mass distraction?
19:36 < kanzure> nah that's discussed regularly
19:36 < joepie91__> fenn: just talk about violating the CFAA
19:36 < joepie91__> that's probably severe enough
19:36 <@fenn> .wik cfaa
19:36 < yoleaux> "Disambiguation: CFAA" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFAA
19:36 < joepie91__> helpful yoleaux is helpful
19:36 < joepie91__> computer fraud and abuse act
19:36 < kanzure> it's one of the whiteneck hate crime laws
19:36 <@fenn> "custom filter anti aliasing" wtf
19:37  * joepie91__ downloads snow crash
19:38  * joepie91__ downloads anathem
19:38  * joepie91__ twiddles
19:38 < kanzure> you have a twiddler?
19:39 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@154.122.23.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
19:39 < joepie91__> I have my thumbs
19:39 < kanzure> http://www.handykey.com/images/twiddler2.jpg
19:39 < joepie91__> confirmed not a cat
19:39 < joepie91__> I seem to have confused my ereaders browser
19:40 <@fenn> that thing looks like a exercise in poor ergonomics
19:40 < joepie91__> actually, I seem to have confused my ereader
19:40 < joepie91__> ...
19:40 <@fenn> joepie91__: so, snow crash takes off where cryptonomicon ends
19:40 < joepie91__> the "downloading" popup won't go away, even though it's alraedy done downloading
19:41 <@fenn> which is basically today with bitcoin eroding the tax base
19:41 < joepie91__> lol
19:41 <@fenn> the federal government still exists but is marginalized due to its lack of a budget and can't enforce laws
19:42 <@fenn> the CIA/NSA sell their data on the open market and operate as a data exchange like amazon, connecting people like you and me with buyers of information
19:42 < kanzure> yes it would be nice if the nsa had a public archive..
19:43 < joepie91__> http://archive.org/details/nsa_data_collection
19:43 < kanzure> hm
19:43 < kanzure> was not expecting
19:43 < joepie91__> fenn: that sounds like a vaguely dystopianish environment
19:43 < joepie91__> kanzure: please tell me you actually clicked that
19:43 < joepie91__> :D
19:44 < gradstudentbot> Wasn't that a Nature paper?
19:44 <@fenn> was nsa_data_collection supposed to be "Item cannot be found."
19:44 < joepie91__> yes :P
19:45 < joepie91__> also I need some sleep
19:45 <@fenn> me too
19:45 < joepie91__> but fenn, I strategically relocated characters into a query
19:45 <@fenn> initiate sleep protocol
19:46 <@fenn> slep(50000)
19:46 <@fenn> dammit
19:47  * joepie91__ goes zzz
19:47 < joepie91__> night all
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20:56 < kanzure> .title http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/pubdb/views/publication_details.php?id=855
20:56 < yoleaux> Asynchronous circuit design
20:56 < kanzure> .title http://www.ohwr.org/projects/asyncart/wiki
20:57 < yoleaux> Open Hardware Repository
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20:57 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/pubdb/views/edoc_download.php/855/pdf/imm855.pdf
20:57 < paperbot> ConnectionError: [Errno -2] Name or service not known (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 625, in send)
21:12 < kanzure> http://spacecollege.org/isee3/we-are-now-in-command-of-the-isee-3-spacecraft.html "The ISEE-3 Reboot Project is pleased to announce that our team has established two-way communication with the ISEE-3 spacecraft and has begun commanding it to perform specific functions. Over the coming days and weeks our team will make an assessment of the spacecraft's overall health and refine the techniques required to fire its engines and bring it back to ...
21:12 < kanzure> ... an orbit near Earth."
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21:26 < kanzure> hmm i forgot about http://sdiehl.github.io/gevent-tutorial/
21:29 < kanzure> i also forgot about gevent.sleep
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--- Log closed Fri May 30 00:00:19 2014