--- Log opened Fri Jun 06 00:00:26 2014
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00:17 < kanzure> hm maybe subject for microfabrication http://www.mindtribe.com/2014/06/the-single-transistor-radio/
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00:30 < nmz787> sooo
00:30 < nmz787> found these http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/22Z003/32/Esterline-Instrument-Corp-201CE
00:30 < nmz787> http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/25L014/30/Avimo-201-060-004-Fiber-Optics-Beamsplitter
00:30 < nmz787> http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/04L019/30E/Laser-Beamsplitter
00:31 < nmz787> " As far as we can tell, this is part of a Raman cell or maybe from some other liquid or pressure cell designed to be probed by a green laser"
00:31 < nmz787> $9.95
00:31 < nmz787> https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5673559808/h36230ECA/
00:32 < nmz787> or if you want a more descriptive URL https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5673559808/h36230ECA/
00:32 < nmz787> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/futurama-fry-not-sure-if
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06:56 < kanzure> hm i should play with an optics simulator thing
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07:21 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0083325
07:21 < kanzure> .title
07:21 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Identifiable%20Images%20of%20Bystanders%20Extracted%20from%20Corneal%20Reflections.pdf
07:21 < yoleaux> PLOS ONE: Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal Reflections
07:22 < kanzure> wait, steve jurvetson took that photo of obama? the transhumanist hypersingularitarian venture capitalist steve jurvetson? hm..
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07:43 < kanzure> what's the name of the mechanism for the exchange of two items between untrusting parties? the one with plexiglass/glass/metal between both participants.
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08:09 < kanzure> pfft http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/science/billionaires-with-big-ideas-are-privatizing-american-science.html
08:09 < kanzure> (pay no attention to the multi-trillion dollar pharmaceutical markets..)
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09:32 < kanzure>  /win 3
09:32 < kanzure> gah
09:40 < kanzure> "Representing exact numbers visually using a mental abacus" http://langcog.stanford.edu/papers/FB-inpress.pdf
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10:58 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjugIM6u2vQ
10:58 < yoleaux> Inexpensive Method for the Duplication of Microfluidic Devices - Black Box Labs
10:59 < kanzure> so the people who did the microscope photolithography setup are in san diego: http://www.blackboxlabs.us/research.html
11:04 < nmz787_i1> they also have a video of making a vacuum chamber and combining that with a microwave to make a plasma bonder
11:05 < kanzure> related company is http://www.epsilonmicrodevices.com/
11:05 < kanzure> "Open Source Plasma Bonder"
11:06 < kanzure> "We offer the Oxygen Plasma Bonder with vacuum gauge for $995.00 which also includes a vacuum gauge and oxygen tank (within continental U.S.). For security and export reasons, we do not ship oxygen internationally. The microwave is not included."
11:06 < kanzure> export reasons... haha.
11:06 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rll6Zo1go5s
11:06 < yoleaux> Plasma Bonder
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11:12 < FourFire> kanzure, cool demo
11:13 < kanzure> stalk: Bajeel Mehta <lajeeb2@gmail.com> and John Waynelovich <johnlukew@gmail.com>
11:15 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-R0_nXpc7I
11:15 < yoleaux> Homemade Oxygen Plasma Etcher & PDMS to Glass Bonding Test - Black Box Labs
11:16 < kanzure> oh you know these guys... ntm787 is you.
11:16 < nmz787_i1> yes
11:16 < kanzure> talked with them?
11:16 < nmz787_i1> one of my 3 youtube IDs because for some reason I can't merge them
11:16 < nmz787_i1> no, i dont think so
11:17 < nmz787_i1> maybe i should?
11:17 < kanzure> i emailed them a few minutes ago asking where to send the check (for their $1k dlp micro lithography thing)
11:19 < kanzure> "Yo dawg, I'd like to acquire your buttlicious photolithography product. Might I enquire wherest I should send the bitcoin transaction to? k snap out of, later alligator, nah just kidding homedoge"
11:20 < chris_99> heh
11:20 < nmz787_i1> You might have actually done that.
11:21 < FourFire> "buttlicious"
11:21 < FourFire> "homedoge"
11:21 < kanzure> you have to speak the language of commerce
11:22 < FourFire> what node does it etch in?
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11:42 < kanzure> what?
11:43 < chris_99> the language of commerce haha
11:43 < FourFire> kanzure, the photolithography product you wanted to order
11:43 < FourFire> node as in nm node
11:44 < FourFire> > || < 150nm ?
11:44 < kanzure> why would it have to be nm?
11:44 < kanzure> and what's a node
11:45 < FourFire> kanzure, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/250_nanometer
11:45 < FourFire> (or am I completely wrong in my assumption of what it's supposed to do?=)
11:46 < kanzure> "nodes" is only mentioned once on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:International_Technology_Roadmap_for_Semiconductors_lithography_nodes
11:46 < kanzure> well, twice
11:48 < kanzure> "A node is a point along a standing wave where the wave has minimum amplitude"
11:49 < chris_99> that's the only node i've heard of in the context of standing waves
11:49 < kanzure> i'm not sure the amplitude matters
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11:51 < kanzure> anyway, nm wavelength is not necessary
11:51 < kanzure> you can get a lot done just playing with micrometers
11:52 < kanzure> oops wait, yes nm wavelength is necessary (most of the photoresists cure between 300-1200 nm)
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11:56 < FourFire> I don't know whether you are mocking me, or if I'm just being overly obtuse
11:56 < nmz787_i1> asking what node does it etch in is confusing a bit to me too
11:57 < FourFire> A "node" in the semiconductor industry is a different name for the feature size of ICs, so Intel currently produces processors at the 22nm "node" (well 14nm by now)
11:57 < FourFire> I'm asking, how small can it draw things?
11:57 < kanzure> they should stop using that word
11:57 < kanzure> or they hsould call it a wave node
11:57 < kanzure> *should
11:57 < kanzure> hell, nmz787_i1 even works at intel and he's confused
11:58 < FourFire> (or does that machine do something else entirely?)
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11:58 < kanzure> the plasma bonder does something else; a photolithography setup shoots photons at photoresists to cure regions of the surface/material
11:59 < kanzure> i am not aiming for nm feature sizes
11:59 < FourFire> ok, that's good, an answer, what size then?
11:59 < kanzure> i already told you micrometer :(
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12:03 < nmz787_i1> most photoresist is in the 300-600nm cure range
12:03 < nmz787_i1> 'peak absorbtion'
12:03 < nmz787_i1> but intel is getting 22nm not through a more UV colored photon, they're using interference of UV photons
12:03 < nmz787_i1> 'more-UV colored'
12:04 < nmz787_i1> (i'm correcting my first ref, not the second ref to UV)
12:04 < nmz787_i1> so likely that system kanzure showed uses a white light source, or a 405nm laser
12:04 < nmz787_i1> or led
12:05 < nmz787_i1> but it sounded like DLP
12:05 < nmz787_i1> so I think either an expanded 405nm laser or a white light with decent UV output
12:05 < nmz787_i1> but that's just the photon wavelength
12:05 < kanzure> hm actually that guy with the dlp photolithography thing is renting out an apartment for bitcoin: https://twitter.com/black_box_labs
12:05 < kanzure> maybe i should just move there and pester him
12:05 < nmz787_i1> you also have to consider the optics, the spot size the beam produces
12:06 < kanzure> well, there are two systems on his page
12:06 < kanzure> one is dlp the other is the uv led thing
12:06 < nmz787_i1> kanzure: did you read the screw valve paper?
12:07 < nmz787_i1> it seems like valves may be easier than expected to fab
12:07 < kanzure> i would argue that valveless is always easier
12:11 < FourFire> thanks, I didn't see that.
12:11 <@fenn> sup homedoges
12:13 < kanzure> same old same old.. it's like herding highly inertial cats up a river.
12:13 <@fenn> you need a boat
12:13 <@fenn> or i need a boat
12:14 < kanzure> an engineer would just re-route the river
12:14 <@fenn> a netsphere engineer would just reprogram the river
12:14 < kanzure> all we need is a few thousand man years of effort
12:14 < kanzure> these guys claim their microfluidic micro lithography stuff is for "citizen scientists":
12:14 < kanzure> https://newscenter.sdsu.edu/engineering/images/zahn_epsilonmicroglossy.pdf
12:15 <@fenn> don't make me read pdf
12:15 < kanzure> i already told you the relevant part
12:16 <@fenn> who's representing the "slave scientists"
12:16 <@fenn> or other non-citizen castes
12:16 < kanzure> it's weird though that they haven't emailed diybio about it if that's their marketing plan
12:17 < kanzure> so, roman was bitching at me about how the world doesn't need another open source cad
12:17 <@fenn> "another" implies that one exists
12:17 < kanzure> "I have read that commercial kernels represent investments of 400+ person-years. That seems reasonable and OCC is likely about the same scale. Another reference is that RGK (Russian Geometric Kernel) the government sponsored project took $20M, and only for the first phase. With that, I am skeptical that setting a goal of having one more modeling kernel would be reasonable one."
12:18 < kanzure> brlcad is technically capable of reading/writing files, which was one of the goals you mentioned
12:18 <@fenn> i thought we established in "the mythical man month" that person-years was a fallacy
12:18 < kanzure> yes but russia probably doesn't know that
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12:19 < kanzure> aren't they the country that hired tens of millions of science labor
12:19 < kanzure> *laborers
12:19 <@fenn> anyway, i would use brl-cad's STEP importer for sure
12:19 < FourFire> kanzure, do they know about diybio ?
12:19 < kanzure> how could they not know about diybio.. all of the "citizen science" hype lately has /mostly/ been about diybio
12:19 < kanzure> there has been some other fringe crap, but by far diybio has been where anyone actually is
12:20 < kanzure> fenn, i just mean, i can't tell roman "because i want unicorn-rare beautiful code, wah"
12:21 < kanzure> waeh
12:22 <@fenn> it's not unreasonable to want code that doesn't crash constantly and is possible to modify
12:22 <@fenn> how many lines of code is OCC?
12:22 < kanzure> at least a few million
12:22 < kanzure> (i checked a while back)
12:22 <@fenn> ok so who is going to fix that?
12:22 <@fenn> (according to lygin)
12:23 <@fenn> or does he even acknowledge that it has problems?
12:23 < kanzure> i'm p. sure he acknowledges that it has problems, given his blog posts about the crashes and bugs
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12:23 < kanzure> there is a certain argument about not always throwing away legacy code, but i currently forget the exact argument
12:24 < kanzure> it's something like, "rewriting it is high-risk and extremely costly, compared to the ongoing maintenance cost"
12:24 <@fenn> someone found a bug and put an ugly hack in place so you don't have to
12:24 <@fenn> something about compatibilities with other broken software
12:24 <@fenn> "because internet explorer"
12:24 <@fenn> has anyone heard of a "polariton"?
12:25 <@fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polariton
12:26 < kanzure> .gc site:arxiv.org polariton
12:26 < yoleaux> 7,380 (site), 7,270 (end), 5,660 (api)
12:27 < kanzure> fenn, so what's the argument for open source cad then?
12:28 < kanzure> fenn: especially given that "read/write needs to be possible by other members on open source hardware teams" is answerable by "use brlcad"
12:29 <@fenn> i'm really confused
12:29 <@fenn> 1) brlcad is open source
12:29 <@fenn> 2) brlcad is not usable
12:30 < kanzure> "then you should focus on making brlcad usable"
12:30 <@fenn> i agree
12:30 < kanzure> i thought the argument was something like, brlcad only barely implements the right primitives
12:30 <@fenn> why is nobody doing this?
12:30 <@fenn> brlcad has a zillion primitives, it's the UI that is unworkable
12:31 <@fenn> it needs at a bare minimum to support openGL
12:31 < kanzure> the primitives are all wrong though
12:31 <@fenn> a good goal would be feature trees with infinite undo
12:31 < kanzure> it's all csg
12:31 < kanzure> nobody thinks about their device in terms of combining spheres and triangles
12:32 <@fenn> does it not also do nurbs patches?
12:32 <@fenn> also, what the fuck is wrong with everyone? what's wrong with spheres and triangles?
12:32 < kanzure> it does do nurbs things, and recently (2012) someone during GSoC implemented nurbs-nurbs intersection stuff, although the code was not clear and i'm not convinced it's a complete implementation
12:33 <@fenn> i don't trust GSoC code
12:33 < kanzure> well, i was going to say that, but there's no reason to discriminate against students
12:33 <@fenn> heh yes there is
12:33 < kanzure> hm?
12:33 <@fenn> "they don't know what they're doing"
12:34 < kanzure> well why did this one?
12:35 < kanzure> http://brlcad.org/wiki/User:Phoenix#GSoC_2012_Project
12:35 < kanzure> http://brlcad.org/wiki/User:Phoenix#GSoC_2013_Project
12:35 <@fenn> drop subtopic "GSoC" from ##hplusroadmap where $date == "today"
12:36 <@fenn> so, brlcad is possible to understand
12:36 <@fenn> people are even making additions to it
12:37 < kanzure> "The week 7 is the mid-term evaluations. During the first half of GSoC, I focused on the NURBS intersections, implemented P/P, P/C, P/S, C/C, C/S intersections, and also made lots of improvements on the SSI implemented last year, e.g. Newton iterations, overlap cases. Now according to the schedule, we are going to the next half of GSoC next week, and I'll start working on evaluating NURBS booleans. A friendly remind of how to tests my ...
12:37 < kanzure> ... results. If you want to have a quick test on P/P, P/C and P/S, you can run src/libbrep/test_point_intersect, or src/libbrep/test_curve_intersect for C/C and C/S. If you want to test SSI, you need to run librt/tests/test_ssi, but it doesn't have build-in test cases, so you need to specify a .g file, and the objects in it. Also, you can use the brep command in MGED, which can test all of these six intersections."
12:37 <@fenn> why is there so little "open source" cred around it? brlcad is not even in debian?
12:37 < kanzure> sure it's in debian
12:38 < kanzure> "During GSoC '13, I implemented 6 independent intersection routines (point/point, point/curve, point/surface, curve/curve, curve/surface and surface/surface), tested and verified them, and they proved to be robust with the input I gave (even the extreme case). The most challenging task is the overlap cases in SSI (the result is 2D rather than 1D), which takes several weeks and hundreds lines of code."
12:38 < kanzure> "After mid-term evaluation, I started to focus on NURBS boolean evaluations with the well-performed intersection routines. The main steps include splitting a trimmed face, inside/outside tests and forming the final b-rep structure. I'm pleased that I stayed on schedule during all these time, and finally finished a working NURBS evaluation routine and COMB conversion. Connectivity graphs take quite a lot of time to implement, and still not ...
12:38 < kanzure> ... completed in some way (e.g. the information lost after the evaluation, because the edges are not shared), but it doesn't effect the performance a lot so finally we just disable this option. If it turns out to be useful later, we can enable it again, and do some modifications if needed."
12:39 <@fenn> https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=brlcad&searchon=names&suite=all&section=all  http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=brlcad&searchon=names&suite=all&section=all
12:39 <@fenn> must be a special invisible package
12:39 <@fenn> stealth cloaking technology
12:40 < kanzure> well for some reason aptitude is showing that the package exists on my end
12:40 <@fenn> you probably built it with checkinstall
12:41 <@fenn> or is it in some ppa?
12:41 < kanzure> hmm http://blends.debian.org/science/tasks/engineering claims that a debian package is not available, but at minimum there is https://github.com/tbrowder/brlcad-debian-package
12:42 <@fenn> ok that's good but it's not a package
12:43 <@fenn> why the hell are they using svn
12:43 < kanzure> make jrayhawk do it
12:43 < kanzure> brlcad has been slowly switching over to git lately
12:44 < kanzure> also, i would argue that python-brlcad is a good vehicle for making it easier to use
12:45 <@fenn> yes, compiling bolt.c and linking it in /usr/bin is not a good strategy for macros
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12:46 < kanzure> main problem with python-brlcad is that i have not thought about simplifying the brlcad api
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12:49 <@fenn> i like this rendering style http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/
12:49 <@fenn> i wonder if it's possible to do with opengl shaders
12:49 < kanzure> that's "w" in brlcad mged
12:49 < kanzure> oh sorry, i am thinking of opencascade actually
12:50 <@fenn> this seems to be based on surface normals
12:50 <@fenn> probably a pixel based method
12:51  * fenn mumbles something about "rtedge"
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12:52 <@fenn> .g snuffeluffegus
12:52 < yoleaux> http://www.reddit.com/user/snuffeluffegus
12:53 <@fenn> "The rtedge command will render a hidden-line image of the specified geometry database model. This hidden line image is a raster image that is similar to what is desired for drafting documentation where the model is drawn as a series of contour edges."
12:54 <@fenn> "BRL-CAD can render hidden line drawings using rtedge, but the images it generates are raster images (consisting of pixels) rather than vector drawings (based on lines and curves). This is often suboptimal - line drawings are often edited and rescaled using vector based editing programs, and rtedge output must be manually traced in order to be used in those environments."
12:55 < kanzure> huh?
12:56 < kanzure> if you intersect a plane, and then take all of the intersected objects, those are your vectors i think
12:56 < kanzure> or at least, vector-drawable objects
12:56 <@fenn> this is talking about outlines, which are a projection, not an intersection
12:57 <@fenn> also, deciding what to consider a corner is a tricky problem
12:58 < kanzure> have you used python-brlcad yet?
12:58 <@fenn> for example these nuts are sorta flush with the end of the bolts so the algorithm doesn't consider it an edge http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/railing_s3.png
12:59 <@fenn> i havent used python-brlcad yet
13:00 < snuffeluffegus> o.0
13:00 < snuffeluffegus> like I'd be on reddit :P
13:00 < snuffeluffegus> actually yeah it's me..
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13:01 <@fenn> for shame
13:01 < chris_99> heh
13:03 <@fenn> this is a great image http://brlcad.org/gallery/renderings/bradley
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13:09 <@fenn> different rendering styles http://brlcad.org/gallery/var/albums/renderings/bradley_rtwizard.jpg?m=1356454549
13:16 <@fenn> am wondering how they modeled all the plants, surely not in mged? http://brlcad.org/gallery/renderings/stryker_slat
13:18 < kanzure> i think they actually have a tree generation routine thing
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13:24 < hmatlock> python devs: this feels dirty, anyone up for correcting me: https://gist.github.com/heath/89e2fb5665076f816b5f
13:24 < kanzure> use csv.DictReader instead
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13:25 < ParahSailin> use .split(",") instead
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13:26 < chris_99> no
13:26 < kanzure> you can use [0:len("Alabama")]
13:26 < chris_99> that wouldn't account for "hi,hi",blah
13:27 < kanzure> he's obviously joking
13:27 < kanzure> let him troll
13:27 < chris_99> oh ok
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13:48 < nmz787_i1> heath: sounds like you want to turn that age column into its own list, so you can call min and max on that
13:48 < nmz787_i1> oh, you want age range from a single row
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14:13 <@fenn> heath you could make a list with each element an age, so the list index corresponds to the age, and you can use list slices as age ranges
14:14 <@fenn> age[0:10] or whatever
14:14 <@fenn> there's probably some fancy multidimensional "traits" thingy that accomplishes the same thing
14:15 < kanzure> well there's an enthought python library called traits
14:15 < kanzure> and numpy does lots of multidimensional things
14:16 <@fenn> my abstraction fu is weak
14:16 <@fenn> what is it called when you have multiple views of the same data structure? like foo['bar']==foo.bar
14:16 < ParahSailin> javascript
14:17 <@fenn> or circle.radius * 2 * pi == circle.circumference
14:18 <@fenn> i guess that's just a property though
14:18 <@fenn> pyparsing does this weird thing where the parse tree is both a list and a dict
14:19 < ParahSailin> use a monad
14:19 <@fenn> i'm going to just assume you're trolling
14:19 <@fenn> instead of trying to figure out what a monad is :P
14:20 < ParahSailin> monadic parser combinators are ossum
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14:22 < kanzure> .wik monad
14:22 < yoleaux> "Disambiguation: Monad" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad
14:22 <@fenn> kanzure: don't get trolled!
14:23 < kanzure> learning haskell wouldn't be the worst thing to happen to me
14:23 <@fenn> it's well known that leibniz was highly antisocial and probably invented the concept of trolling
14:24 < kanzure> i've been meaning to see if he published any "patents"
14:24 < kanzure> "patent" isn't mentioned on his superlong wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz
14:25 <@fenn> that was before patents, and besides, they were granted by monarchy, usually in exchange for something else
14:25 < ParahSailin> https://cokmett.github.io/cokmett/
14:25 < kanzure> no, this was not before patents haha
14:25 < kanzure> 1646? patents were happening before that
14:25 < kanzure> england had that 1624 law about monopoly patents
14:25 <@fenn> who do i complain to that the internet is broken?
14:26 < kanzure> because it was already such a huge problem
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14:26 < kanzure> i wonder if people just signed their work with leibniz's name as a way to get it preserved
14:26 <@fenn> they may have used the same word but i doubt the system was anything like our current patent system
14:26 < kanzure> or he was just the prototypical usenet troll... not sure.
14:27 < kanzure> i think you would be surprised.. description of invention, various claims, boom granted a patent.
14:27 <@fenn> "monads are elementary particles with blurred perceptions of one another" and so is your mom
14:28 <@fenn> i've been reading "how the laser happened" and there's a whole chapter on patents
14:28 < ParahSailin> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/parsers-0.11.0.1/docs/Text-Parser-Char.html
14:28 <@fenn> after reading that it's really hard to accept any sort of argument about how patents encourage new technological developments
14:29 < kanzure> oh please as if you had a positive opinion before reading that
14:30 <@fenn> ok but this is a well known high profile invention that supposedly was a result of big companies and their intellectual property
14:32 < kanzure> i'm fascinated by how strongly people believe that patents are good
14:32 <@fenn> it's because they think it's central to capitalism
14:32 <@fenn> or that it even has anything to do with capitalism
14:32 < ParahSailin> everyone likes the idea that one day you can just live off deadweight rent
14:33 <@fenn> why not advocate for basic income then?
14:33 < kanzure> i think it's something like "hey, this is an easy to follow set of steps to do something, how could this possibly be bad? and also, your alternative is confusing and sounds like hard work"
14:33 <@fenn> instead of suing each other for all eternity
14:33 < ParahSailin> basic income doesnt make them feel special and smart i guess
14:34 < kanzure> i got into an argument the other day with a few people that were essentially saying "copyright law is enough for open source hardware"
14:34 <@fenn> that's what "inventor's certificates" are for :P
14:34 < kanzure> except that patent law trumps copyright law.. :|
14:34 <@fenn> except that copyright has nothing to do with hardware
14:34 <@fenn> you can get a design patent..
14:34 <@fenn> .wik design patent
14:34 < yoleaux> "In the United States, a design patent is a form of legal protection granted to the ornamental design of a functional item. Design patents are a type of industrial design right. Ornamental designs of jewelry, furniture, beverage containers (see Fig. 1) and computer icons are examples of objects that are covered by design patents." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent
14:35 < kanzure> yes yes but the set of loopholes and automatic grants of copyright that occur in copyrightland don't occur in patent land (including design patents)
14:35 <@fenn> copyright has been stretched pretty far already in being used to cover computer programs
14:35 <@fenn> because a program is a "work of literature"?
14:35 < kanzure> i'm surprised that the gplv3 patent provision is expected to work
14:36 <@fenn> i'm surprised we haven't nuked the world yet
14:36 < kanzure> shrug, little gifts
14:36 <@fenn> anthropic principle
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14:41 < kanzure> how many biology lab components are doable on a simple microfluidic device, if that photolithography setup was to happen?
14:41 < kanzure> i remember stuff about using cd-rom-form-factor stuff for centrifugation, or using food blending machines
14:41 < kanzure> thermocycling is easy with leds or something
14:41 <@fenn> i liked the u-channel centrifugation better (flow separation)
14:42 <@fenn> actually spinning something is complicated
14:42 < kanzure> chromatography could be done with microspheres? or one of those "micro array of pdms posts"?
14:42 <@fenn> thermocycling is easy with a spiral channel over temperature zones (we already discussed this a million times)
14:42 < kanzure> yeah i'm convinced thermocycling is not a problem
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14:43 < kanzure> i was just going through "the list" in my head (i don't really have a list, i'm just making things up that sound important)
14:43 < kanzure> i should stop calling it chromatography, what it should really be called is separation and purification
14:43 <@fenn> no, please continue calling it chromatography
14:43 < kanzure> garoo?
14:43 <@fenn> unless you mean something else
14:44 < kanzure> .wik chromatography
14:44 < yoleaux> "Chromatography (/ˌkroʊməˈtɒɡrəfi/; from Greek χρῶμα chroma "color" and γράφειν graphein "to write") is the collective term for a set of laboratory techniques for the separation of mixtures." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatography
14:44 < kanzure> .d chromatography
14:44 < yoleaux> chromatography (/ˌkrəʊməˈtɒgrəfi/): n. A technique for the separation of a mixture by passing it in solution or suspension through a medium in which the components move at different rates — http://is.gd/MXfW0D
14:44 <@fenn> there are other ways to separate and purify things that are not chromatography
14:44 < kanzure> yeah i don't specifically care about chromatography itself
14:45 <@fenn> you could have a dialysis membrane in a microfluidic chip i guess
14:45 <@fenn> or magnetic nanobeads or something
14:45 <@fenn> anyway.. what was the question?
14:45 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Membraneless%20microseparation%20by%20asymmetry%20in%20curvilinear%20laminar%20flows.pdf
14:46 <@fenn> "what's a photolithography setup used for in a bio lab?"
14:46 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Separation%20of%20suspended%20particles%20by%20asymmetric%20arrays%20of%20obstacles%20in%20microfluidic%20devices.pdf
14:46 < kanzure> no, the question was: approximately how much equipment can be constructed by this tool
14:46 <@fenn> all of the equipments!
14:47 <@fenn> step 1: synthesize a grad student
14:47 <@fenn> step 2: convince them to do your scut-work
14:47 < kanzure> the common tools are centrifugation, thermocycling, electrophoresis/chromatography/separation, spectrography, storage, and then dna synthesis/sequenthesis are of course two of the less common but very useful components
14:47 <@fenn> step 3: roll in the dogecoins
14:48 < kanzure> another separation technique in addition to those two is "pinched flow fractionation":
14:48 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Pinched%20Flow%20Fractionation%20-%20Continuous%20Size%20Separation%20of%20Particles%20Utilizing%20a%20Laminar%20Flow%20Profile%20in%20a%20Pinched%20Microchannel.pdf
14:49 < kanzure> anyone who publishes a micron-scale photograph in a scientific publication without including a scale bar should be hanged for high treason against humanity
14:49 <@fenn> that pinched flow thing is kinda cool
14:51 < kanzure> no idea if it works for smaller diameter particles (those were at least 10 micron diameter?)
14:51 <@fenn> what is it separating on? density?
14:52 < kanzure> i'm not sure. do you mean density of the particles?
14:53 < kanzure> it would be cool to see separation of dyes. i wonder if anyone has done that.
14:53 <@fenn> oh, the particles have to be bigger than the width of the smaller liquid flow
14:53 <@fenn> heh that's an elementary school demo, paper chromatography. or did you mean with the pinched flow technique?
14:54 < kanzure> i mean a microfluidic method
14:54 < kanzure> oh well. packing a device with microspheres as your chromatography column is not the end of the world.
14:54 <@fenn> yep i've seen that done in microfluidic devices (gas chromatography column)
14:55 <@fenn> bonus effect is you can use different particles on the same chip layout
14:55 < kanzure> oops i forgot electroporation/*poration
14:55 <@fenn> or have multiple columns all loaded through one port
14:56 <@fenn> dude there are so many scientific methods you'll never list them all
14:56 < kanzure> i am not trying to list them all
14:56 < kanzure> there is a certain amount of equipment you need before you can do useful biology things
14:56 < kanzure> just having a dna synthesizer is not helpful
14:56 <@fenn> how about flow cytometry, does it pass the "helpful" threshold?
14:56 < kanzure> what are you going to do, splash the synthete in your toilet?
14:57 <@fenn> .d synthete
14:57 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find a definition for 'synthete'.
14:57 < kanzure> sorry my inner biologist is making up words again
14:57 < kanzure> actually i'm not sure if flow cytometry is really that complicated.. just use a camera and point it at your microfluidic device, right?
14:57 < kanzure> oh, you want to also separate the cells maybe? i assume that's very similar to the problem of separating 10 micron diameter particles etc
14:57 <@fenn> it's actually easier in a microfluidic device
14:58 <@fenn> you're sorting cells based on color or whatever
14:58 < kanzure> hm when do you need to sort cells anyway?
14:58 <@fenn> in a macro scale device this is done with charged droplets and electrostatic deflection
14:58 < kanzure> like, in all the transfection protocols i remember, i haven't had to sort cells
14:58 <@fenn> in a microfluidic device you could just use a "+" junction
14:59 <@fenn> you can tag with antibodies and sort by cell type, or for counting cancer cells
14:59 <@fenn> .wik flow cytometry
14:59 < yoleaux> "In biotechnology, flow cytometry is a laser-based, biophysical technology employed in cell counting, cell sorting, biomarker detection and protein engineering, by suspending cells in a stream of fluid and passing them by an electronic detection apparatus." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_cytometry
15:00 < kanzure> do you really need a laser?
15:00 <@fenn> yes, because the droplet is too small and moves too fast otherwise
15:00 <@fenn> you could use a LED instead i guess
15:00 < kanzure> add lasers to everything!
15:00 < kanzure> this is my laser keyboard
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15:01 <@fenn> so lasers are pretty simple conceptually, they have just been explained badly just about everywhere
15:03 <@fenn> in a population of particles you have a boltzmann distribution of particle energies. some of the particles toward the tail end of the distribution are in an energetic state with energies corresponding to visible light. normally a population consists mostly of "ground state" atoms and a few energized atoms. a "population inversion" is just having mostly energized particles
15:05 <@fenn> a passing photon can cause an energized atom to give up its energy as a photon (in the same phase and direction as the first photon) and this can act like a cascade amplifier
15:06 < kanzure> uh, my complaint about lasers isn't about the laser itself, but rather the optics usually associated (or, in cases where i need to maintain a co2 tube, i also mean co2 tubes)
15:06 <@fenn> if you add two mirrors on the ends, photons that aren't traveling parallel to the mirrors fly off to the sides and don't get repeatedly amplified as they bounce back and forth, so only one mode is amplified
15:07 < kanzure> by opticks i mean lenses and mirrors
15:07 < kanzure> i have no idea why everyone was always cleaning my laser cutter's mirrors
15:07 <@fenn> and then you need some way to add more excited molecules, which is usually done with "pumping" light, but can be done other ways too
15:08 <@fenn> kanzure: because hot gunk vapors can condense on the lens and make a hot spot
15:08 -!- justanotheruser is now known as nikkuts
15:08 < kanzure> but wasn't there a vacuum to suck out the hot gunk vapor or something
15:08 < kanzure> or a fan, even
15:08 <@fenn> take a magnifying glass and a bowl of pure white sugar and try to set the sugar on fire with sunlight. won't happen. but if you add a speck of dust, the dust will absorb the light rays and melt the sugar and oxidize and pretty soon you have a bubbling black cauldron
15:09 <@fenn> yeah a good laser will have lens shielding gas
15:10 <@fenn> certain materials (PVC, ?) will generate especially corrosive gases
15:10 <@fenn> i don't really know why they don't just use long focal length lenses to keep the gases far away from the lens?
15:11 <@fenn> maybe something to do with diffraction
15:11 < kanzure> and now convince me to constantly maintain/fix/replace a co2 tube
15:12 <@fenn> what goes wrong with them?
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15:13 < kanzure> "Each laser tube requires a given amount of flowing fluid to get rid of the heat generated in its discharge region. The circulating fluid may go through either an air/fluid (radiator with a fan) or fluid/fluid (chiller) heat exchanger. It is important to provide enough flow and enough 'exchange' so as the fluid temperature will not rise much above 80 degrees F or about 27 C."
15:13 < kanzure> "Always use a Flow Switch to disable laser operation in case of No Flow"
15:14 < kanzure> "If you are using city water, filter it. If you are using a closed circuit flow system, check the water and change it every six weeks or so, or drop a few drops of Algaecide in the recirculator. Better yet, use diluted Dow Frost."
15:14 < kanzure> hmm
15:14 <@fenn> pretty sure they are using the word "fluid" wrong
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15:16 < kanzure> not finding any details
15:16 <@fenn> why are laser tubes expensive? it's just a tube with some mirrors
15:16 < kanzure> and gas?
15:16 < chris_99> the chinese co2 ones seem cheap
15:18 < kanzure> "The CO2 laser tubes found in many laser cutters/engravers only have a lifetime of around 1000 - 2000 hours, after which they need to be replaced." yes but why..
15:18 < kanzure> maybe it's co2 leakage?
15:19 < kanzure> sam says: "Additional gases are normally added to the gas mixture (besides CO2) to improve efficiency and extend lifetime. The typical gas fill is: 9.5% CO2, 13.5% N2, and 77% He. Note how He is the largest constituent and CO2 isn't even second! (This also means that leakage/diffusion of He through the walls and seals of the laser tube may be a significant factor is degradation of performance and/or failure of a sealed CO2 laser to work at ...
15:19 < kanzure> ... all due to age.)"
15:20 < chris_99> heh i'm on the same page
15:20 < chris_99> that's interesting about He leakage
15:20 <@fenn> i am looking at http://www.synthfool.com/laser/
15:21 < kanzure> "1988    Sharplan introduces 1st sealed CO2 cylinder (which prevents leakage of gas and eliminates the need for replacement of cylinder that added maintenance cost to the Laser. Still uses DC excitation."
15:21 <@fenn> why are people so interested in burning pictures into wood?
15:21 < kanzure> "1988    Luxar introduces 1st sealed CO2 cylinder with RF excited gas and flexible hollow wave-guides."
15:21 < kanzure> because they want to make money
15:21 < kanzure> and apparently people pay for that
15:21 <@fenn> that doesn't answer the question
15:23 <@fenn> moms against center justified text
15:23 < kanzure> "System also uses sealed tube technology (new sealed cylinder has life of about 45,000 Laser-On hours, and inexpensive refill adds another 45,000 Laser-On hours) and passes on an un- heard of 3 year warranty. "
15:24 < kanzure> http://www.laserles.com/TimeLineCO2.htm
15:24 < kanzure> so maybe people just aren't using sealed tubes
15:24 < kanzure> "They have life expectancy of  2 to 3 years" but what happened to 45,000 "on" hours
15:24 <@fenn> you can have a sealed tube that still circulates water through, or circulates gas through water
15:25 < kanzure> oh maybe it's still patented or some shit
15:25  * kanzure smug
15:25 <@fenn> doubtful
15:25 < kanzure> maybe someone patented it in the 90s or something
15:26 <@fenn> "The down-side to this glass-blown tube, was that the tube could crack easily if the tube were not kept cool"
15:26 <@fenn> now this may sound radically radical, but why not just use a metal tube
15:26 < kanzure> because then you can't pass light through it?
15:27 <@fenn> but the flash lamp is inside the tube anyway (or it's DC-excited)
15:27 < kanzure> .title http://www.parallax-tech.com/hardseal.htm
15:27 < yoleaux> Advantages of hard seal Glass to Metal technology in sealed co2 lasers
15:27 <@fenn> honestly, blown-glass?
15:28 <@fenn> "special glass and special metal"
15:29 < kanzure> so why do their products only have a warranty of 4 years
15:30 < kanzure> "180 Watt sealed co2 laser system for OEM industrial applications : $17,500." "Complete laser system --you supply water and electricity.
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15:31 < kanzure> "We do NOT refill or repair RF excited CO2 laser tubes such as those manufactured by Coherent, Synrad or Universal Lasers. Reason: We only work with DC excited sealed co2 laser tubes."
15:32 < kanzure> how are these guys not sued into oblivion by the other parallalogramlax people?
15:32 < kanzure> the microcontroller one
15:36 < kanzure> fenn, so a few days ago i figured that cheap lab equipment wasn't really enough to do anything; it has to be cheap lab equipment and enough lab equipment to actually do things. otherwise you'll just end up with a stupid openpcr sitting on your desk doing nothing..
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15:37 < kanzure> i know that's obvious when worded in that way, but from the other perspective ("let's just make a cheap centrifuge") it is not
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15:41 < kanzure> ParahSailin: what other necessary biology devices am i missing? thermocycler, centrifugation, chromatography column separation, electrophoresis separation, electroporation, storage, flow cytometry, spectrography and of course dna synthesis/sequencing
15:42 < kanzure> actually, maybe i just mean *poration instead of electroporation, since getting wires in there is inconvenient
15:42 < kanzure> and i'm not sure how to do switching (the actual physical sorting part) for flow cytometry
15:42 < kanzure> wihtout valves
15:43 < kanzure> and i am assuming spectrography can be done off-chip by nmz787_i's toy
15:43 < kanzure> *off-chips (i don't assume any of this stuff would be on a single chip)
15:45 < kanzure> hmph what's the point if you don't include asic vlsi stuff? https://github.com/blockerupter
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16:08 <@fenn> also getting chemicals is hard sometimes
16:08 <@fenn> unreasonably hard
16:15 <@fenn> helium in the laser tube can't be a significant part of the cost
16:17 < chris_99> get it free, from the local fusion reactor
16:17 <@fenn> wouldn't that be great
16:17 < chris_99> that it would, unlimited floating balloons for all
16:18 <@fenn> waste of helium
16:18 < chris_99> heh
16:19 <@fenn> "Some has 20% O2 added so party people don't pass out talking like Donald Duck..."
16:19 < chris_99> haha i did not know that
16:20 <@fenn> we're going to look back on this as the most wasteful stupid waste in the history of humankind
16:20 <@fenn> just dumping this rare element overboard for no reason other than we don't feel like keeping it anymore
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16:20 <@fenn> just gone, forever
16:20 <@fenn> if you want more you have to go to jupiter ffs
16:21 < chris_99> or just build fusion reactors
16:21 <@fenn> no, do the math
16:22 < chris_99> do they not produce much?
16:22 <@fenn> of course not, that's the whole point of nuclear power
16:22 <@fenn> otherwise we'd be having a "helium tax" for preventing atmospheric change
16:23 < chris_99> can't you use liquid hydrogen
16:23 < chris_99> for superconductors
16:23 <@fenn> no, hydrogen is reactive
16:23 < chris_99> i thought it's still possibl though
16:23 <@fenn> also, hydrogen is not helium
16:23 <@fenn> also also, a bajillion things
16:24 < chris_99> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=4515891&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F77%2F4538104%2F04515891.pdf%3Farnumber%3D4515891
16:24 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1109%2FTASC.2008.920541
16:24 < chris_99> oh paperbot works automagically
16:24 < chris_99> cool
16:25 < chris_99> who cares if it's not helium, if you can still use it, in the superconductor :)
16:25 <@fenn> who cares if it's not gold, you can use platinum, so just send me all your gold
16:25 <@fenn> or throw it in the ocean, who cares
16:26 < chris_99> heh
16:27 < chris_99> wouldn't liquid hydrogen be better even
16:27 <@fenn> no!
16:27 <@fenn> fuck off
16:27 < chris_99> why not? it's cooler
16:29 <@fenn> do you even know what "hydrogen embrittlement" means?
16:29 < chris_99> oh i'm wrong about that nvm
16:29 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: would you be willing to host a microscope? responsibilities would include keeping it plugged in and internet connected. also there would be an irc bot that controls where it looks. you'd also be pestered to load samples periodically.
16:29 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: and it would stream video or something
16:30 < kanzure> by periodically i mean when your pond sample gets boring
16:31 < chris_99> fenn, i wasn't trying to piss you off btw, i was just generally curious why you could use liquid hydrogen instead, but i can see why now
16:31 <@fenn> you will be asked to sneeze on the microscope slide occasionally
16:31 <@fenn> chris_99: helium is a noble gas, and hydrogen isn't. that's a big enough reason right there
16:32 < kanzure> there used to be an internet-controlled microscopy service somewhere. this must have been back in 2003.
16:32 < chris_99> i'm just reading about embrittlement now, seems strange
16:32 < kanzure> it was probably a java applet thing :(
16:32 <@fenn> i remember the robotic garden waterer w/camera
16:32 < kanzure> just some dude running a microscope for people to poke at
16:33 < kanzure> !left pls
16:33 <@fenn> heh
16:34 < kanzure> !left 25 microns, etc..
16:34 < kanzure> it would work
16:34 < kanzure> we can make it search for life forms
16:35 < kanzure> search for microscopic irc life (SMILF)
16:36 <@fenn> unfortunately weird acronym group hotline (UWAGH!)
16:36 < chris_99> if you used c. elegans, could people steer them around using chemical sents
16:36 < chris_99> *scents
16:37 < kanzure> no, that would require some sort of multi-pipette holding system and that sounds annoying to design
16:37 < kanzure> and then you'd have to get the pipette tips in the right location, and under a slide cover?
16:37 < chris_99> i was thinking of some kind of tiny matrix of pipese
16:37 < chris_99> *pipes
16:38 <@fenn> just make a maze with a pipe at the inlet and outlet
16:39 <@fenn> i mean start and end
16:39 < kanzure> opencl would be able to recognize paramecium and cellular blobs, right?
16:39 < kanzure> so the bot would be able to report when something not boring is found?
16:39 < chris_99> opencv?
16:39 <@fenn> why do you want an internet microscope webcam
16:39 < kanzure> doh
16:39 < kanzure> opencv yes
16:39 < kanzure> fenn: why not?
16:39 < kanzure> fenn: they are like tiny pokemon
16:39 < chris_99> yeah i think i recall people recognising cells with it
16:40 < chris_99> haha i like the pokemon analogy
16:40 <@fenn> paramecium vs milliwatt laser, fight!
16:40 < kanzure> nah they die on their own eventually
16:40 <@fenn> paramecium deploys lysozome attack. attack failed!
16:41 < chris_99> i choose you c. elegans
16:41 < kanzure> also it's because i feel ashamed for not having thousands of hours of microscopy video already
16:41 <@fenn> everyone forgot what a webcam was
16:41 <@fenn> now it just means "usb camera"
16:41 < kanzure> cept the porn people?
16:42 < kanzure> at least others upload their microscopy videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB16E0C8E552629DE
16:42 <@fenn> how do i find internet-connected streaming or refreshing camera feeds?
16:42 < kanzure> .title
16:42 < yoleaux> microorganisms
16:42 < kanzure> fenn, ww.com
16:42 <@fenn> it's all just fatasses shaking their nutsacks at the camera
16:43 < kanzure> it used to be just people pointing webcams at empty rooms
16:43 <@fenn> or empty rooms when the fatass is busy doing unmentionable things off camera
16:43 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6CefMUMtv4&list=PLB16E0C8E552629DE&index=44
16:43 <@fenn> wtf i have to sign up
16:43 < yoleaux> Dinoflagellates in the Weep Site
16:44 <@fenn> i was thinking this one looked interesting http://upload2.camarades.com/uploads/2730422839.jpg
16:44 <@fenn> (not a nutsack)
16:47 < kanzure> ah here you go,
16:47 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4idmYWMDk4&index=55&list=PLB16E0C8E552629DE
16:47 < yoleaux> Video Compilation from Webcam Microscope
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16:48 < kanzure> tweak labs in florence
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16:48 < kanzure> heath: is that webcam still up
16:50 < kanzure> i bought this thing for eleitl, http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001BS00KK/
16:51 < kanzure> .title
16:51 < yoleaux> The Apex Explorer Plus Microscope: Amazon.co.uk: Camera & Photo
16:51 <@fenn> CT scan porn https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Webcam_CT_transmissions.OGG
16:51 <@fenn> hot naked webcams
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16:52 < kanzure> huh, that one doesn't have a third optical train for plugging in a camera
16:54 < kanzure> ah here we go: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apex-Microscopes-Scholar-The/dp/B002CWLMSS/ref=pd_sim_ph_10?ie=UTF8&refRID=0AABMYYE7DSWANXE8ZG0
16:57 < kanzure> this sounds fun,
16:57 < kanzure> .title http://uvicrec.blogspot.com/2011/12/cnc-microscope-mk2.html
16:57 < yoleaux> IC reverse engineering: CNC microscope mk2
16:58 <@fenn> why don't people use CT scanners to reconstruct cad geometry instead of this laser bullshit
16:59 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njDytol2EUc
16:59 < yoleaux> CNC microscope mk2 alpha
16:59 < kanzure> hmm john mcmaster sounds like a familiar name
16:59 <@fenn> it's not like it's hard to make x-rays or scintillation pixels
17:00 < kanzure> holy shit, prehistory
17:00 < kanzure> John McMaster <mcfluffin@gmail.com> emailed me 2007-10-03 to ask me about high vacuum atom holography stuff
17:01 < kanzure> "I am a laser hobbyist and having recently stumbled upon a myriad of high vacuum equipment, I am curious to look at your atom holography project.  It looked quite interesting. The reason why I found your website in the first place was I have been searching around for the book Lex and Yacc by O'Reilly and I can't find it at library or such."
17:03 < kanzure> he was asking me about sophomore college things. wow.
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17:06 < kanzure> oh... he is probably the siliconpr0n.org guy. <johndmcmaster@gmail.com>
17:06 < kanzure> http://siliconpr0n.org/wiki/doku.php?id=donate
17:06 <@fenn> .title https://www.blogger.com/profile/11714069658809228929
17:06 < yoleaux> Blogger: Profil d'utilisateur
17:06 <@fenn> ffs blogger
17:08 <@fenn> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MJhykioAWqo/TMsDkZnMbtI/AAAAAAAAAOs/fSyAL6krJjo/ci_joe.png "because knowing is half the battle"
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17:11 < justanotheruser> kanzure: are you the 1%?
17:12 < kanzure> why do you ask?
17:12 < justanotheruser> kanzure: because you buy stuff for a bunch of people on IRC in the name of science
17:12 < justanotheruser> sounds like what a scientist would do if he became a 1%er
17:12 < seba-> really
17:13 < kanzure> i am probably 1%
17:13 < seba-> kanzure buys stuff
17:13 < seba-> so cool
17:13 < seba-> what will you buy me
17:13 < justanotheruser> kanzure: do you work?
17:13 <@fenn> buy slovenia
17:13 < kanzure> justanotheruser: like a beast
17:13 < seba-> yeah
17:13 < justanotheruser> kanzure: do you get paid for your work?
17:13 < seba-> whole country for 99
17:14 < kanzure> justanotheruser: lots of software consulting. i am very picky though. i only do remote work for new york city or san francisco. everyone else tends to not pay much..
17:14 < justanotheruser> I see
17:14 < kanzure> but honestly i don't need to be working
17:14 < kanzure> it's more of an inertial thing..
17:14 <@fenn> smoke em while you got em
17:15 < seba-> oh well
17:15 < seba-> i'm going back into books
17:15 < seba-> i'm studying for exams
17:15 < seba-> lol
17:16 < kanzure> you can't just run a query like "WHAT WILL YOU BUY ME".. let's do something crazy, like uh, weren't you going to look at dna synthesis for me
17:16 < seba-> i was just joking
17:16 <@fenn> what do you think, is this really linus torvald's blog? http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/
17:17 < seba-> i have a few cheapass projects i want to do, but i self-fund them or i get people to fund me, yay!
17:17 < seba-> anyway
17:17 < seba-> i have to go
17:17 < seba-> bbl
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17:20 < kanzure> fenn: linus posts to googleplus these days, i think
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17:23 < kanzure> i am upset that i forgot about john
17:23 < kanzure> it was pre-meetlog, so maybe that's an acceptable excuse
17:23 < kanzure> patrik knows him.. heh.
17:23 <@fenn> you obviously have the email still, maybe it's time to do some personal data mining
17:23 <@fenn> parse your old emails for content and metadata
17:25 < dingo> ugh linus on google plus
17:25 < kanzure> haha dingo
17:25 < dingo> thats the one fricken time i read somebody's google plus post
17:25 < dingo> just to see what linus has to say
17:25 < kanzure> doesn't he usually dessiminate important stuff by email anyway?
17:26 < dingo> i do appreciate that he spends his time on linux, and not on setting up a blogging platform, if thats what its about
17:26 < kanzure> fenn: it's weird how rapidly i achieved network saturation re: finding interesting internet people
17:26 < dingo> i don't see the value in getting random stranger's comments...
17:26 < dingo> he can post to LKML and get plenty of *quality* feedback
17:26 < dingo> i guess maybe he makes posts that aren't about linux in particular, just frustrations with technology, and those, i guess, belong in a blog
17:27 < kanzure> i'd like to pretend i read LKML except i don't
17:27 <@fenn> but what if he wants to rant offtopic about the bat he found in his kitchen
17:27 < dingo> and because of who he is, people want to read it, and that doesn't belong on LKML so
17:27 < dingo> i read LKML when i'm pointed to it, hehehe, never on purpose
17:27 < dingo> too high-volume for me
17:27 <@fenn> how many posts per day is it up to?
17:27 < kanzure> i am the king of high volume
17:27 < dingo> i did do some of the free/open/net-bsd mailing lists for a while because they were low volume enough
17:27 < kanzure> bring it on..
17:28 < dingo> haha 00:28 < kanzure> i am the king of high volume
17:28 < dingo> you ain't kid
17:28 < kanzure> what!
17:28 < dingo> just the volume of typing and reading you do
17:28 < kanzure> well who's at the top then
17:28 < kanzure> and how do i acquire their powers
17:28 < kanzure> is it drugs? tell me it is drugs.
17:28 < dingo> its very valuable, whatever you call it, your high volume ability
17:29 < kanzure> it is probably 90% bullshit
17:29 < jrayhawk_> kanzure: I can probably make that work.
17:29 < dingo> sure but volume makes up :-)
17:29 < dingo> like hey kanzure -- can you write me the same code 5 different times
17:29 < dingo> I'll pick the best of 5 :-)
17:29 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: cool. it would probably involve nathan receiving it and assembling it, and then him dropping it off at your place.
17:29 < dingo> you'll still do it faster than most people can do it one time
17:30 < dingo> i haven't bothered with code metrics at the company you were at, but i suspect there was a peak plateau, and upon your leaving, it probobly havled, even though you had 15 co-workers
17:31 < kanzure> that place was funny-- i got so much praise just for not fucking up whitespacing
17:31 < dingo> i mean its hard to quantify exazctly by git...  you did a lot of refactoring too -- but that too, has its quality, to be able to comprehend complex systems, so i don't know...
17:31 <@fenn> kanzure: you probably remember john mcmaster from homecmos: http://cmosfold.blogspot.com/
17:32 < dingo> but ifi just measured keystrokes vs. the other employees you would tower, definitely
17:32 < kanzure> fenn: nope, but i realize now that he's "in on it" with azonenberg... i didn't know all the homecmos members. and i didn't realize he owned siliconpr0n.org..
17:32 < dingo> i got "windows sdm" to work last night, i'm feeling pretty good about that, so i can leave the company pretty soon, hehehe
17:32 < kanzure> dingo: sdm?
17:32 < dingo> it was a personal point of pride to see LS's work followed through
17:32 < kanzure> dingo: always leave on a high note
17:33 < dingo> we got 2 good win32/C# guys on the company now, they're both sitting in toronto -- very serious hardworking no-bullshit russians
17:33 < dingo> one guy's resume cracked me up,... it began in 1983 with C and Fortran
17:34 < kanzure> fenn: here's the email i sent him. it's a little pushy.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/johndmcmaster.txt
17:34 < dingo> so i got all the various bits to work in symphony now, all the high level stuff LS envisioned, these guys can fuck with the details, its just a matter of spending all of my vacation time, hehe
17:34 < dingo> i think its smart to use all your vacation before you quit, right?
17:35 < kanzure> you can negotiate vacation coming into a new company actually
17:35 < dingo> i mean if you quit, they're not obligaated to pay you your vacation time are they? maybe so in california, hard to say
17:35 < kanzure> that's an okay idea, but also you can go into the next company and jus tsay tha-- you know, honestly, you shouldn't bother with full-time employment
17:36 < dingo> this fucking world of programming... we're kings, we can dictate the crazies of accomidaations and get them
17:36 < dingo> i've had a few sips of tequila, hehehehe
17:36 < dingo> i best be quieting up
17:36 < kanzure> so, i actually haven't shopped myself around yet for another gig
17:36 < dingo> you're hanging out doing open source really?
17:36 < kanzure> but one of the terms of my contract was that i would get to use their name, branding, marketing material to promote myself
17:37 < kanzure> so i figure i could snug in some crazy cloud company easy enough.. but why would i want to work??
17:37 < dingo> man, i get the most satisfaction doing open sourc ework
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17:37 < kanzure> ah, well, my motivations are entirely selfish and non-altruistic
17:37 < dingo> just minor improvemnts to some python libraries i maintain or can contribute to would help thousands of people, vs. software i make money for, that helps hardly anybody
17:37 < kanzure> well, maybe they are slightly altruistic... maybe.
17:38 < kanzure> (as an accident)
17:38 < dingo> some strange metric of satisfaction drives me
17:38 < kanzure> have you considered drugs
17:38 <@fenn> i believe the gentleman just mentioned tequila
17:39 < kanzure> tequila doesn't generate motivation.. i mean, not in the quantities that you'd want
17:39 <@fenn> well hey this sounds pretty familiar neh http://penguin-electronics-inventory.blogspot.com/2012/10/introduction.html
17:40 <@fenn> "Once the user has designed their project they may create a bill of materials, which specifies how many of each physical device is required to build their project. We intend to include cost-minimization code which, given shipping prices from each distributor, will determine the least expensive way to purchase a given number of copies of that BOM"
17:40 < kanzure> it's too bad that i can't convince azonenberg to idle in here
17:40 < kanzure> i'm not going to switch everyone into #homecmos
17:40 < kanzure> and that channel has been dead ever since azonenberg gave up (or lost his soul?? no clue)
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17:40 <@fenn> vampires
17:40 < kanzure> he's active in ##electronics at least
17:41 <@fenn> ugh that channel..
17:41 < kanzure> hm?
17:41 <@fenn> SNR is terrible
17:42 < kanzure> well that's where you ran into me
17:42 < kanzure> :silence:
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17:43 <@fenn> i thought it was #physics or #space
17:43 <@fenn> i remember you came into #emc asking about 'what is the accepted ontology for machining' and nobody knew what you were on about
17:44 < kanzure> i knew about #emc back then?
17:45 <@fenn> so mcmaster has a SEM now
17:45 < kanzure> it looks like all of his stuff is very mich one-off knock-off not-meant-to-be-repeatable
17:46 < kanzure> well, not intentionally unrepeatable
17:46 <@fenn> yes but sometimes that's necessary to get a baseline performance estimate
17:47 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ
17:48 -!- kanzure changed the topic of ##hplusroadmap to: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | not intentionally unrepeatable
17:48 <@fenn> "we do it twice so you don't have to"
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17:49 <@fenn> seems like refurbishing old SEMs is the cool thing to do these days
17:49 <@kanzure> those photolithography-in-san-diego people haven't replied yet, what's the point of running a business if you don't reply to a customer offering to buy things from you
17:49 <@fenn> seems to be a common business model
17:50 <@kanzure> i would expect a refurbishing economy for SEMs just like there is for all the other terrible equipment
17:50 <@kanzure> i've been meaning to get yashgaroth to go talk with the azco biotech people.. they would probably be willing to give him a tour (he could pretend to be interested in employment)
17:50 <@fenn> i found these people when researching electroluminescent display history; they seem pretty interesting http://www.elume.com/
17:51 <@kanzure> "sculpting microchip devices from sand".. draw with tiny stick, then put in oven?
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17:55 < kanzure> "High resolution movable micro-mirror and PZT substrates display devices"
17:55 < kanzure> "100 x 100 micron DLP array (Nasa project)"
17:55 < kanzure> last one is at bottom of http://elume.com/rd-applications
17:55 <@fenn> electroluminescent displays seem like an important component of a self replicating ecology
17:56 < kanzure> why's that
17:56 <@fenn> because they are relatively simple to make and have a wide variety of uses
17:57 < kanzure> too bad they don't list prices for their foundry services
17:57 < kanzure> i'm sure it's not good for cheap prototyping
17:57 <@fenn> it seems like their main export is "expertise"
17:58 <@fenn> anyway it looks very small, like they'd actually talk to you if you asked
17:59 < kanzure> "no that's impossible, only professionals can make features less than 1 mm"
18:00 < nmz787_i> kanzure: can you help with this http://paste.pound-python.org/show/iFoulOnCbyrLAZiGgbSS/
18:00 < nmz787_i> for some reason the stderr thread is blocking until the subprocess ends
18:00 < nmz787_i> i tried changing readlines to read
18:01 < nmz787_i> and also tried adjusting bufsize to -1 and 0
18:01 < nmz787_i> not dice
18:01 < nmz787_i> no dice
18:03 < kanzure> i dunno if you can share that through threads
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18:04 < nmz787_i> it works for stdout tho
18:04 < nmz787_i> i can only think the problem is that stderr doesn't send the same line ending
18:06 <@fenn> some pretty funky trace patterns on this IC http://elume.com/sites/default/files/images/product-photos/dsc_3867.jpg
18:06 < kanzure> nmz787_i: i am not certain but this might be a python/threading issue, GIL, etc.
18:07 < kanzure> everyone in pythonland just uses Queue.Queue for message passing between threads and coroutines
18:07 < kanzure> yashgaroth: you could email azco biotech and act like you want a job, ask for a tour, etc. then you can scope out their facility.
18:07 < nmz787_i> i don't see the need for a queue though, as the messages are all getting appended to a textbox
18:08 < yashgaroth> you think they're hiring?
18:08 < kanzure> yashgaroth: all companies are always interested in talent at any time
18:08 < yashgaroth> they have no need for a protein person really
18:08 < kanzure> yashgaroth: ("hi, i will make you a lot of money, do you want to not hire me?")
18:09 < kanzure> right, you would probably present yourself as a biology person who is interested in lab equipment
18:09 < yashgaroth> what sort of information would I be hunting
18:10 < kanzure> nmz787_i: maybe stream.close() is blocking
18:10 < kanzure> yashgaroth: oh just general stuff.. tour their facility, scope of operations (how many employees, customers, revenue), what sort of equipment they focus on, the way their industry works (refurbishing dna synthesizers?)
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18:11 < nmz787_i> kanzure: that is after the messages would be printed though
18:11 < kanzure> nmz787_i: http://stefaanlippens.net/python-asynchronous-subprocess-pipe-reading
18:11 < yashgaroth> but how to do that without appearing to be casing the joint
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18:12 < kanzure> well, most people believe you when you say you have a background in protein stuff
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18:13 < yashgaroth> but I want to get out of that and work on equipment
18:13 < kanzure> obv. you don't go up to them in an email and say "Give me all of these details:"
18:14 < yashgaroth> are we sure they're a for-real company, aside from someone hearing that cambrian bought stuff from them?
18:14 < kanzure> i have evidence that they are real but it's not the sort of evidence i feel okay talking about in public
18:15 < kanzure> if you know what i mean
18:15 < yashgaroth> heh fine, good enough for me
18:15 < kanzure> i thought they were in arizona for some reason
18:16 < kanzure> but on further reflection, that would make no sense :)
18:16 < yashgaroth> well, AZco
18:16 < kanzure> sweet vindication
18:17 < kanzure> three addresses: http://azcobiotech.com/contact-us.php
18:18 < kanzure> i would email "J Adams" <jadams@azcobiotech.com> since he's made public appearances on the diybio mailing list (and also he's the owner?)
18:18 < yashgaroth> lemme check his posts on there
18:19 < kanzure> he often responds to posts about dna synthesizers
18:20 < kanzure> nmz787_i: if i ship you parts to make a computer-controlled webcam microscope, would you assemble it, test it, and transfer it to jrayhawk?
18:21 <@fenn> hm they are right next door to "andergene labs" a genetic testing service
18:22 < nmz787_i> yashgaroth: i didn't hear they use one, i saw their equip in their lab with my own photoreceptrons
18:22 < kanzure> a tour?
18:22 <@fenn> here's the closest i can get to azco biotech in street view http://goo.gl/maps/OrcAL
18:22 < nmz787_i> at cambrian, sort of
18:22 < nmz787_i> kanzure: sure
18:23 < kanzure> fenn: that does not look like a shop. hm.
18:23 < nmz787_i> cnc video microscope is half of the laser etcher project
18:23 <@fenn> it looks like generic office space
18:23 <@fenn> probably zoned light industrial/medical
18:23 < kanzure> maybe they have shop space at another address
18:23 < kanzure> or maybe they outsource everything....
18:23 <@fenn> there are various medical companies and insurance companies in the same office park
18:24 < kanzure> having an office is important i guess, for appearances, to other san diego companies?
18:24 <@fenn> what were you expecting? an aircraft hangar?
18:24 < kanzure> yes
18:24 < yashgaroth> their "office" is the guy's house
18:24 < kanzure> at least 1 giant garage door
18:24 < kanzure> maybe they don't publicly list that address
18:24 <@fenn> yashgaroth: that's what i was expecting
18:25 < yashgaroth> you could always just email him and ask to buy a synth for DIYbio purposes, maybe namedrop the carlsbad lab, and if he says no we can get some legal details on why/not, since he's a JD apparently
18:25 < kanzure> i'm sure he would say yes, but i don't want to spend $15k on a dna synthesizer at the moment
18:26 < kanzure> it would make me feel bad
18:26 < yashgaroth> how sure are you he'd sell you one
18:26 < kanzure> and that would probably be his crappiest model available
18:26 <@fenn> wait, is it not legal to sell DNA synthesizers?
18:26 < kanzure> well, i would go through jojack, so i would seem at least as legitimate as jojack
18:26 < yashgaroth> heh
18:26 < kanzure> i think it's legal
18:26 <@fenn> i'm pretty sure we aren't that far down the rabbit hole yet
18:27 < kanzure> that's why ebay let's em fly
18:27 < kanzure> fenn: hm?
18:27 <@fenn> uh, rainbows end
18:27 <@fenn> .wik rainbows end
18:27 < yoleaux> "Rainbows End is a 2006 science fiction novel by Vernor Vinge. It was awarded the 2007 Hugo Award for Best Novel. The book is set in San Diego, California, in 2025, in a variation of the fictional world Vinge explored in his 2002 Hugo-winning novella "Fast Times at Fairmont High" and 2004's "Synthetic Serendipity"." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End
18:27 < kanzure> i'm sure they could be banned pretty easily
18:28 <@fenn> everything was illegal in that future, and the main character had a grandfathered in laptop without any backdoors installed
18:29 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: what sort of space available for a microscope do you have. it would require an outlet and be reachable by you at least once a week or once in a while for sample switching.
18:29 < kanzure> once a week, month, something..
18:30 <@fenn> not mentioned in the wikipedia summary, rainbows end deals extensively with microfluidic biotech research platforms and *-omics
18:30 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: specifically i am wondering about desk space vs floor space, or other options, which would help inform design constraints
18:30 < kanzure> it is probably not nice for a microscope to take up an entire desk
18:31 <@fenn> a microscope should come with its own hovercraft
18:31 < nmz787_i> and various other parts....
18:31 < kanzure> well, it could be a esrver rack unit
18:31 <@fenn> battle lasers!
18:31 < kanzure> *server
18:31 < kanzure> server rack microscope hehehe
18:31 <@fenn> at one point i was considering making a server rack air compressor
18:32 < kanzure> it's not like humanity is likely to standardize on some other data center size format
18:32 <@fenn> direct AC linear motor/piston compressor
18:32 < yashgaroth> I will say that I doubt my chances of getting in there - they'd probably only be interested in chemistry and/or mechanical people, and their products pique the interest of DHS more than most
18:32 <@fenn> you can cascade them to get higher pressure ratios
18:32 < kanzure> yashgaroth: there's no way they would be concerned about DHS stuff just because someone wants employment
18:33 <@fenn> why are we interested in this company again?
18:33 < kanzure> just snooping
18:33 < kanzure> shrug
18:34 < nmz787_i> see what their garage looks like, so we can emulate
18:34 <@fenn> "There Could Be Gold in Your Laboratory!!"
18:34 < nmz787_i> 'ahh, we haven't made synthesizers yet because our walls aren't covered in safety posters'
18:34 < kanzure> it would be interesting to find out that they don't have a garage/shop
18:34 <@fenn> physics grads: remember that lump of off white metal kicking around the bench?
18:34 < nmz787_i> fenn: lol
18:35 < nmz787_i> i believe DNA is roughly white colored
18:35 < kanzure> is there any good reason to not do server rack mount compatible for a microscope
18:35 <@fenn> yes it's roughly semen-colored
18:35 < nmz787_i> 'white gold'  but what state's tea would DNA be?
18:35 < nmz787_i> Missouri's?
18:35 < nmz787_i> (monsanto)
18:36 < kanzure> it's not like you're going to find an off-the-shelf cnc microscope anyway, so if it's going to be custom...
18:36 <@fenn> is "cnc microscope" really the only term?
18:36 < kanzure> i sure hope not
18:36 <@fenn> "Azco Biotech, Inc. has offices in 2 U.S. locations in Oceanside and San Diego, plus a new office in China!
18:37 <@fenn> 11387 Ocean Ridge Way
18:37 < kanzure> i don't think their china office exists
18:37 < nmz787_i> kanzure: do you want a modified scope, or something based off https://github.com/OpenLabTools
18:37 < nmz787_i> http://openlabtools.eng.cam.ac.uk/presentations/2013_08_RPiWorkshop/OLT_MicroscopePresentation.pdf
18:37 <@fenn> a.k.a. his house
18:38 <@fenn> they have at least 12 employees
18:39 < kanzure> nmz787_i: i see nothing wrong there
18:39 < kanzure> except lots of bulkyness, but i dunno if i care
18:40 < kanzure> https://github.com/OpenLabTools/Microscope/tree/master/CAD
18:40 < kanzure> oops, stl files yeah these guys are evil
18:40 < nmz787_i> they're academics
18:41 < nmz787_i> 'kanzure what do you mean, obv stl are good, that's why github renders them'
18:41 < kanzure> troll harder: "knazure you're just saying that because you're not practical. stl is the only practical option."
18:41 < nmz787_i> except on IE 7 or 8
18:42 < kanzure> raspberrypi can do streaming video encoding stuff, right?
18:42 <@fenn> what is the preferred cad format?
18:42 < kanzure> i would take openscad over stl at this point
18:43 < kanzure> step, iges preferred, source code to generate objects in a cad kernel even better
18:43 <@fenn> oh pff it's just a bunch of t-slot anyway
18:43 <@fenn> https://github.com/OpenLabTools/Microscope/blob/master/CAD/Assembly%20Image.JPG
18:43 < kanzure> i didn't look at all the parts, but maybe there's camera lens holder stuff
18:43 < kanzure> it is nice if all the steps wouldn't have to be double checked and repeated manually
18:44 < kanzure> their design is not going to fit in a rack
18:44 < kanzure> it also does not look like something you'd keep on a desk
18:44 <@fenn> huh since when does my web browser render interactive 3d objects
18:45 < kanzure> github added that in 2013
18:46 <@fenn> well it doesn't quite work right
18:46 < kanzure> what's the fastest microcritter and how fast would the travel have to be to keep up (including opencv delays)?
18:47 <@fenn> microcritter?
18:47 <@fenn> you're trying to track a paramecium?
18:48 < kanzure> well, it's not a requirement, but it would be nice to wonder that before building the damn thing?
18:48 <@fenn> there's always a speed/resolution tradeoff
18:48 <@fenn> unless you use nmz787_i's magic propeller beanie which solves everything
18:48 < kanzure> oh, maybe we can find a 20 megapixel camera or something ridiculous to attach to this
18:49 <@fenn> all their "cad" stuff is just short cylindrical tubes stuck together at right angles
18:49 < kanzure> what did you expect
18:49 <@fenn> some rectangular blobs with cylindrical holes cut in them
18:50 <@fenn> did i mention i hate everyone and will be setting sail for the edge of the world in 2015
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18:51 < kanzure> hey they're trying
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18:53 <@fenn> let me get out my virtual calipers and virtually measure the virtual edges of this virtually circular bag of triangles
18:54 < nmz787_i> their thing wasn't that big
18:54 < nmz787_i> any microscope is gonna be taller than a server tho
18:54 < nmz787_i> they're like an inch and a half tall
18:55 < nmz787_i> yes raspi has h264 hardware encoding
18:55 <@fenn> oh my bad, it does have a bunch of complex redundant-reduplication of the prusa way bearings https://github.com/OpenLabTools/Microscope/blob/master/Docs/Presentation%20Images/X-Y%20Stage%20CAD.JPG
18:55 < nmz787_i> also ppl do bug tracking already, i don't think motor speed will be a problem
18:56 <@fenn> are you sure that's not hardware decoding?
18:58 <@fenn> .title http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=25022&hilit=transcoding
18:58 < yoleaux> open source transcoding example
19:01 < nmz787_i> there are both
19:01 < nmz787_i> or at least there is def encoding
19:01 < nmz787_i> http://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/12391/hardware-h-264-encoding-and-decoding-on-the-gpu-core
19:02 < nmz787_i> oh
19:02 < nmz787_i> that's never been answered
19:02 < nmz787_i> i've read about it before
19:02 < nmz787_i> it used to cost money, but then they made it free somehow
19:02 < nmz787_i> found they were already paying for the license or something
19:02 <@fenn> http://www.raspberrypi.org/new-video-features/ The hardware has always been capable of supporting H.264 encode, but we were under the misapprehension that encode required an additional licence fee, so were waiting until the camera board release (which is still coming later in the year) before spending the money to enable it.
19:02 <@fenn> During the course of talking to the MPEG LA about the MPEG-2 licence, we discovered that the existing licence fee that is already baked into the cost of the Raspberry Pi actually covers both encode and decode
19:02 <@fenn> yay "intellectual property"
19:03 <@fenn> this would have been a lot more clear if they had just ignored all this licensing bullshit
19:05 <@fenn> is there a enable_all_functionality boot parameter
19:06 < seba-> lol
19:06 < seba-> i've tested encoding
19:06 < seba-> it works
19:06 <@fenn> seba-: can you please give a short 2-3 sentence summary of how you did that?
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19:07 < nmz787_i> http://theiopage.blogspot.com/2013/04/enabling-hardware-h264-encoding-with.html
19:07 < seba-> i don't exactly remember, but it doens't work with ffmpeg, it was with some tool you get with r.pi
19:08 < seba-> it was about half year ago hm
19:08 <@fenn> perhaps you should consider taking nootropics
19:09 < seba-> maybe i have alzhaimers
19:09 < nmz787_i> oldtimers
19:10 < seba-> i think i've written it down somewhere
19:10 < seba-> but i don't remember where
19:11 <@fenn> try to remember where you wrote down where you had it written down
19:12 <@fenn> ugh i think i have become infected with flesh-eating bacteria
19:12 < seba-> maybe i've used just the raspivid tools
19:13 < nmz787_i> ahh, it might be a binary blob they provided
19:13 < nmz787_i> omx
19:13 <@fenn> oh come on really, a binary blob?
19:13 < seba-> yes
19:13 <@fenn> it's patented, not secret
19:13 < seba-> same thing
19:13 < nmz787_i> that last link i posted has 17 lines of code
19:14 < nmz787_i> fenn: maybe not
19:14 < seba-> i think the problem is with the chip
19:14 < nmz787_i> (patented)
19:14 < seba-> they have a NDA
19:14 < seba-> for documentation
19:14 <@fenn> how is that even legal
19:14 < seba-> the system on a chip
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19:14 < nmz787_i> even hardware decode is binary blobulated
19:15 < nmz787_i> 'you no pay, you no play!!!'
19:15 <@fenn> why is there no "hardware liberation front" that hacks peoples computers for driver documentation?
19:15 <@fenn> it's not like distributing "proprietary" information is a crime
19:15 <@fenn> and even if it were, it needs to happen
19:15 < seba-> they probably send a swat team if you do that in US
19:16 < nmz787_i> "Back to Google and some more searching showed me that the pi has hardware H264 encoding and should be able to create the video easy. And it does once you have the right software installed. What was taking hours to make had been cut down to minutes. I can’t remember the exact time difference, but GStreamer was making the video about 60x faster than avconv could at least."
19:16 <@fenn> "here's how to use your phone" SEND IN THE KILLERS
19:16 < seba-> yes
19:16 <@fenn> and they wonder why people snap and shoot up a movie theater
19:17 < gene_hacker> it's an arm chip, that's how arm makes money
19:17 < seba-> no
19:17 < nmz787_i> they strongARM you
19:17 < seba-> the ARM part is open
19:17 < nmz787_i> btw its a broadcom chip
19:17 < seba-> the propertary broadcom part is closed
19:17 <@fenn> arm licenses the cpu, not the peripherals
19:17 < nmz787_i> arm doesn't fab anything
19:17 < gene_hacker> oh that's right
19:17 < nmz787_i> strongARM is actually a thing tho
19:18 <@fenn> nmz787_i: so you basically have to use gstreamer?
19:18 <@fenn> even though the functionality has nothing to do with gstreamer and it was just an arbitrary choice
19:19 < nmz787_i> fenn: no, that was just a post on someone using gstreamer
19:19 < nmz787_i> i believe any of the progs need to go through omx{some suffix}
19:19 <@fenn> but if the binary blob they supply is a gstreamer module...
19:19 <@fenn> s/module/plugin/
19:20 < nmz787_i> no i dont think it is
19:20 < nmz787_i> it is the omx{some suffix} files
19:20 < nmz787_i> like omxplayer
19:20 < seba-> yes
19:20 <@fenn> even worse!
19:20 < seba-> r.pi is quite crappy
19:20 < seba-> doesn't work well
19:20 < gene_hacker> it is
19:21 < seba-> well now i've kind of made it work, with an exterior HDD hm
19:21 < gene_hacker> the usb ports suck
19:22 < nmz787_i> i got it with the camera
19:22 < nmz787_i> camera is super noisy
19:22 <@fenn> i dont get why they have a camera board... is it low latency or something?
19:22 < nmz787_i> keyboard starts acting up on me sometimes (i stopped using it after it was too annoying)
19:22 < seba-> well my r.pi physically destroys SD cards
19:22 < nmz787_i> fenn: what do you mean? cameras are good
19:23 < nmz787_i> fenn: its better than USB as its attached via a parallel bus
19:23 <@fenn> but there are millions of usb cameras and they don't have to be designed to work specially for the r.pi
19:23 <@fenn> it's better because it's parallel? please explain this
19:23 < seba-> fenn, 1080
19:23 < seba-> it's full hd
19:23 < seba-> 50 fps
19:23 < nmz787_i> as such it should be much more wizardable than a usb cam, get lower latency, higher resolution
19:23 < seba-> yup
19:23 < seba-> far more bandwith
19:23 < seba-> than via usb
19:23 < nmz787_i> RAW frames
19:24 < nmz787_i> straight to that proprietary encoder
19:24 <@fenn> great
19:24 < nmz787_i> USB cams with h264 start >$50
19:24 <@fenn> hopefully you can tee it into some image processing first
19:25 < seba-> nmz787, yeah but they have fake 1080
19:25 < nmz787_i> fenn yea
19:25 < nmz787_i> seba-: not sure what you mean
19:25 < seba-> well i've bought one cheap h264 cam
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19:25 < seba-> and it had interpolated 1080p
19:25 < nmz787_i> oh
19:25 < nmz787_i> i see
19:25 < seba-> it was shitty
19:25 < nmz787_i> yeah
19:25 < nmz787_i> lotta them cheap cams do that
19:25 < nmz787_i> PITA
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19:25 < nmz787_i> not good at all for science
19:25 < nmz787_i> or engi
19:26 < seba-> i've had the logitech 920 or something that was ok
19:26 < seba-> but not really perfect
19:26 < seba-> hm
19:26 < nmz787_i> f-ing cheap manufacturers lying and getting away with it because I can't throw eggs at their factory since there's an ocean between us
19:26 < seba-> anyway beagle bone should be better than r.pi
19:26 < nmz787_i> yeah i have a decent logitech
19:26 < seba-> nmz787_i, do you have problems with r.pi corruption as well?
19:27 <@fenn> is there a list of usb cameras and their various parameters
19:27 < seba-> fenn what do you want to do?
19:27 <@fenn> nobody ever advertises manual exposure control
19:27 < kanzure> so would raspberrypi be capable of both h264 encoding and also opencv things
19:27 < nmz787_i> fenn: v4l has something
19:27 < nmz787_i> kanzure: yes
19:27 < seba-> kanzure, what is opencv?
19:27 < seba-> GPU programming?
19:27 <@fenn> auto exposure control causes horrible latency because the exposure is so slow and it takes multiple frames for it to switch exposure times
19:28 <@fenn> also the change in framerate messes up my mplayer stream
19:28 < nmz787_i> seba-: never experience corruption, though once i turned it on to watch tv and it didn't boot, and there was some fsck crap i went through but i dont think it actually did anything, just cleared some warning and i rebooted and it seemed ok
19:28 < nmz787_i> seba-: open computer vision
19:28 < seba-> nmz787_i, so then you do experience it
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19:29 < seba-> i don't think you can do opencv with the current implementation
19:29 < seba-> you could do theoretically
19:29 < nmz787_i> seba-: you can
19:29 < nmz787_i> i was playing with compiling opencv on my rpi
19:29 < seba-> does it work fast?
19:29 < kanzure> i'd be happy to use beaglebone instead of raspberrypi
19:29 <@fenn> aren't they basically the same thing
19:29 < nmz787_i> beaglebone lacks the camera module tho i believe
19:29 < seba-> fenn no
19:29 < nmz787_i> and h263 enc
19:29 < nmz787_i> 264
19:29 < kanzure> ugh
19:30 < seba-> raspberrypi has this big problem with data corruption
19:30 < kanzure> digshadow: howdy
19:30 < seba-> if you do anything more intensive with it
19:30 <@fenn> seba-: you probably are using a bad power supply
19:30 <@fenn> use something with a higher current rating
19:30 < kanzure> digshadow: didn't even see you come in
19:30 < seba-> fenn that's not true and i hate that anyone says that
19:30 < seba-> there are many reports where people used proper lab power supplies
19:30 <@fenn> well i've seen it happen on other systems
19:30 < seba-> and all sorts of things
19:30 < seba-> and the same thing happens
19:31 < seba-> it just doesn't work properly
19:31 < nmz787_i> fenn: yeah there are weird problems
19:31 < seba-> just not everyone experiences it
19:31 < digshadow> kanzure: I like to hide
19:31 < seba-> because it depends what are you using for
19:31 < seba-> if you want to just watch videos then it's ok
19:31 < seba-> generally the write operations are problematic
19:31 < seba-> not read
19:31 < nmz787_i> i was reading about my keyboard error and ppl were saying it could be the littlefuse ESD protection on the USB power traces
19:31 <@fenn> is it possible to submit a bug report on the hardware?
19:31 < seba-> no
19:31 < kanzure> digshadow: these are my conspirators
19:31 < seba-> they say "you have a bad PSU or SD"
19:31 < seba-> the end
19:32 < seba-> even thou there are like 2342342 people complaining
19:32 < nmz787_i> seba-: i stopped having luck just playin vids :P
19:32 <@fenn> there is probably some trivial fix like "solder a capacitor here"
19:32 < digshadow> kanzure: you missed one important piece of the puzzle
19:32 < digshadow> az and I went to school together and even lived together for a semester
19:32 < digshadow> he got interested in the ic stuff I was working on
19:32 < seba-> fenn i don't know, it happened the same when using USB flash drive
19:32 < kanzure> nmz787_i went to school there too
19:32 < digshadow> which eventually led to his interest in microfabrication
19:32 < seba-> but it didn't get physically corrupted
19:32 < kanzure> digshadow: hah! so you're the cause.
19:32 < kanzure> that's funny.
19:33 < kanzure> do you know why he is not as active in those directions
19:33 < nmz787_i> digshadow: kanzure nope, I went to RIT, RPI's western rival
19:33 < kanzure> oops, sorry
19:33 < digshadow> nmz787_i: RPI HAS NO RIVAL
19:33 < nmz787_i> get your R acronyms right, geez
19:33 < digshadow> WE ARE KING
19:33 < nmz787_i> lol
19:33 < digshadow> j/k
19:33 < seba-> fenn, but yes, probably it lacks (a) capacitor(s)
19:33 < nmz787_i> i was sad when i found they have a student garage for fixing cars
19:34 < nmz787_i> like wtf why doesn't /my/ tech school have that
19:34 < digshadow> kanzure: um I dunno, he moves from project to project
19:34 < digshadow> I suppose we all do
19:34 < nmz787_i> they want to discourage poor kids from attending :/
19:34 <@fenn> the "raspberry it" the hottest new computer on a cracker
19:34 < kanzure> well, it's embarrassing that we don't have cheap microfabrication stuff
19:34 < digshadow> his microscope idea is good though
19:34 < seba-> fenn, now i run r.pi on a HDD with own power supply and it works ok
19:34 < digshadow> also
19:34 < digshadow> he wanted to start big
19:34 < digshadow> with cmos
19:34 < digshadow> there are a lot of eaiser stepping stones
19:34 < kanzure> shrug, i would be happy with su8/pdms stuff
19:34 < kanzure> but i can see the utility of microelectronics
19:35 <@fenn> seba-: so you think the usb flash drive was drawing too much power?
19:35 < nmz787_i> plus he's in a phd prog where he can do cool stuff, not boring old innovation
19:35 < digshadow> I joined homecmos when it first started
19:35 < nmz787_i> measly systems integration, pfft
19:35 < digshadow> it was super quiet
19:35 < digshadow> and so I left because it was wasting tab space :P
19:35 < digshadow> I poke in every few months
19:35 < kanzure> tab space can be created but not destroyed
19:35 <@fenn> tabs grow exponentially but decay linearly
19:35 < digshadow> so another bit of trivia about me
19:35 < seba-> fenn, i don't think the usb flash drive nor SD card draw too much power, more that they draw power in pulses and because of the lack of capacitors it can't handle such type of loads
19:35 < digshadow> I wanted to be a genetic engineer
19:36 <@fenn> hey me too
19:36 < kanzure> biology is awful
19:36 < digshadow> but decided to go into computer science because it required 10 years of school
19:36 < kanzure> black magic etc
19:36 < digshadow> and I was afraid I'd go to jail for ethical violations
19:36 < kanzure> i think we can safely throw away a lot of regular biology stuff
19:36 < kanzure> like all that bulky lab equipment
19:36 < kanzure> or paying $20,000 for a lightbulb
19:36 < seba-> huh
19:36 < digshadow> heh, there is waste to be sure
19:36 < digshadow> but...
19:36 < seba-> what sorts of lightbulbs cost that much?!
19:37 < digshadow> don't judge things too quickly
19:37 < kanzure> seba-: thermocyclers
19:37 < gene_hacker> microwave light bulbs
19:37 < kanzure> don't worry, i have been judging for a very long time
19:37 < seba-> why do thermocycles need light bulbs?
19:37 < digshadow> sometimes quality is important in very minute ways
19:37 <@fenn> seba-: that's what i meant
19:37 < gene_hacker> the ones that light up a whole factory
19:37 < seba-> +r
19:37 < kanzure> digshadow: i would prefer to find protocols where the quality is not as important
19:37 < kanzure> digshadow: for example, having a method that only works 1 time out of a billion is just not useful
19:37 < seba-> don't thermocyclers run with a peltier element?
19:37 < kanzure> not all of them
19:37 < digshadow> kanzure: it is if you get 1 billion tries a second
19:37 < seba-> kanzure what do they have then?
19:37 < kanzure> most biologists.. don't.
19:37 < digshadow> R&D is expensive
19:38 < kanzure> digshadow: i spent some time in a molecular biology lab
19:38 < seba-> digshadow, R&D is expensive only because nobody cares about costs that much
19:38 <@fenn> 1 billion seconds per try
19:38 < digshadow> kanzure: fwiw
19:38 < digshadow> the current stack of bio equipment I have laying around
19:39 < digshadow> I have a centrifuge, electroophoreis equipment, vortexer
19:39 < digshadow> assorted tubes and stuff
19:39 < digshadow> I was playing with bio stuff for a bit
19:39 < digshadow> but settled on doing more robotics stuff
19:39 < kanzure> biology equipment is less useful without the full set of toys
19:39 <@fenn> and reagents
19:39 < kanzure> oh yeah, those..
19:39 < seba-> i have chemistry toys :-(
19:40 < digshadow> I have a good assortment of chemicals for the work I do
19:40 < digshadow> including fun ones like conc HF
19:40 <@fenn> now that DIY Taq is legal why is there no "bacterium conservancy" or "seed saving" or whatever heirloom gardeners do
19:40 < seba-> was DIY Taq illegal?
19:40 < kanzure> ptaented
19:40 < seba-> ah
19:40 < kanzure> digshadow: i think a lot of biology equipment can be replaced by microfluidic components
19:41 < kanzure> mostly valveless stuff, i mean
19:41 <@fenn> the patent was the excuse everyone used for not sharing their homegrown plasmids
19:41 < digshadow> kanzure: ah okay
19:41 < digshadow> so
19:41 <@fenn> but now that there's no patent, still no free bacteria
19:41 < digshadow> your idea is to cheaply make a MEMS assembly
19:41 < digshadow> to run experiments off of that?
19:42 < seba-> fungi living in dishwashers are interesting, aren't they? :-)
19:42 <@fenn> s/dishwasher/nuclear reactor/
19:42 < kanzure> yeah, like a <$5k photolithography setup for microfabrication, mostly microfluidics and microelectronics, other MEMS stuff would be cool but a lot of those procedures require wacky vacuum chambers n' shit that i don't want to bother with upfront
19:43 < seba-> if you have a vacuum pump and some tape, you can make a x-ray generator
19:43 < nmz787_i> vacuum is pretty essential to any good lab
19:43 < digshadow> kanzure: I have piles of vac stuff here
19:43 < digshadow> not sure how much you looked into what I do
19:43 < kanzure> so, another part of this is that it should be repeatable
19:43 < kanzure> so that others can use it and do my work for me
19:44 < kanzure> erm i mean, use it for themselves
19:44 <@fenn> and improve on it
19:44 < seba-> oh if anyone is interested
19:44 < seba-> oxone can be used to eat copper
19:44 <@fenn> <standard open source argument>
19:44 < seba-> tested today
19:44 < kanzure> seba-: did you look at the phosphoramidite chemistry stuff
19:44 <@fenn> .wik oxone
19:44 < yoleaux> "Potassium peroxymonosulfate (also known as MPS, potassium monopersulfate, and the trade names Caroat and Oxone) is widely used as an oxidizing agent. It is the potassium salt of peroxymonosulfuric acid." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxone
19:44 < ParahSailin> oxone?
19:45 < seba-> kanzure, no, i need to study for exams now :/
19:45 <@fenn> i have some sodium persulfate purchased from a circuit etching supply company
19:45 < kanzure> digshadow: i've seen your ic reverse engineering stuff, not much else
19:45 < kanzure> were you the one that wrote that png2netlist thing?
19:45 < digshadow> there are 4 or 6 such tools
19:45 < digshadow> I wrote one of them
19:45 < kanzure> i mean the open source one
19:45 < digshadow> yes...
19:45 < digshadow> there are a lot of them
19:46 < kanzure> do they work
19:46 < seba-> kanzure, 1 is hard :< spectroscopy
19:46 < digshadow> to varying degrees
19:46 < digshadow> well lets be specific
19:46 < digshadow> when you ssay png
19:46 < kanzure> well, i mean image data
19:46 < digshadow> do you mean a photo of a chip
19:46 < kanzure> decapped
19:46 < digshadow> or a polygon layout
19:46 < digshadow> ah
19:46 < digshadow> I have not seen any good tools for that
19:46 < digshadow> the best out there
19:46 < digshadow> is degate
19:46 < digshadow> but that is somewhat limited
19:46 < digshadow> I did not write it
19:46 < kanzure> .g site:github.com degate
19:46 < yoleaux> https://github.com/nitram2342/degate
19:47 < digshadow> degate only works on std cells
19:47 < digshadow> and can't work on first principles
19:47 < digshadow> most of the chips I do are older non-std cell based chips
19:47 < digshadow> so degate doesn't work for those
19:47 < digshadow> it also requires very sharp images
19:47 < digshadow> either from a SEM or confocal microscope
19:48 < kanzure> so, i think the goal of something like homecmos should be some piece of open source hardware
19:48 < kanzure> or multiple pieces
19:49 < nmz787_i> seba-: what about spectroscopy?
19:49 < seba-> nmz787_i, i have an exam from it
19:49 <@fenn> i think the goal should be an open FPGA chip
19:49 < digshadow> thats what az wants
19:50 < digshadow> its not a bad goal
19:50 < kanzure> hmm i dunno, you should start with transistors and smaller circuits
19:50 < digshadow> it would make all our projects go full circle too
19:50 < kanzure> circles can be confusing
19:50 < digshadow> but unifying
19:50 <@fenn> it would enable reconfigurable computing which was killed in the late 90's
19:50 < digshadow> sometimes you need  a driving factor
19:50 < digshadow> even if its arbitrary
19:50 < nmz787_i> seba-: oO sweet
19:51 < nmz787_i> seba-: I know a lot of spectroscopy, ask me if you need to
19:51 <@fenn> xilinx produced a run of chips for some professor to study it, and that was it
19:51 < kanzure> why did they let a professor touch it?
19:51 <@fenn> all FPGA since then have single bitstream at load time
19:51 < seba-> if anyone is interesting in geiger i've made the powersupply really easy, using just inductor + diode + capacitor, no transformer
19:51 < seba-> nmz787_i, also raman etc
19:51 < seba-> ?
19:52 < nmz787_i> seba-: i've made a sortof geiger  detector with a PIN diode
19:52 < nmz787_i> no high voltage
19:52 < kanzure> seba-: nmz787_i is king of open source spectroscopy equipment at the moment
19:52 < digshadow> seba-: I picked up a gamma spectacular recently
19:52 < nmz787_i> seba-: yeah raman is on my list of things to attempt very soon
19:52 < digshadow> have you used one by chance
19:52 < seba-> digshadow, no
19:52 < nmz787_i> digshadow: technically the PIN diode detector is for gammas
19:52 < digshadow> http://openmca.info/
19:53 < kanzure> .title
19:53 < yoleaux> OpenMCA
19:53 < digshadow> is also an interesting project
19:53 < kanzure> argh
19:53 <@fenn> i saw jake's presentation on the gamma spectrometer, i guess that's what "gamma spectacular" is
19:53 < nmz787_i> MCA is such a dumb term  IMO
19:53 < seba-> wouldn't PIN also probably detect also beta/muons i guess?
19:53 < seba-> -also
19:53 < digshadow> I got it to help bring up an EDS detector for my SEM
19:53 < nmz787_i> as they dont really exist anymore, the channels are just arrays in memory
19:53 < seba-> nmz787_i, also probably oyu can use a 1n400x for the detector
19:53 < seba-> or an array hm
19:54 < seba-> it should work
19:54 < digshadow> if anyone here has experience with Li gamma detectors I would be very interested
19:54 < kanzure> superkuh is gone? wtf
19:55 < kanzure> maybe we lost him in the netsplit
19:55 < seba-> nmz787_i, what about NMR?
19:55 < nmz787_i> pft openMCA is 65msps
19:55 < nmz787_i> digshadow: you mean SiLi? don't be silly!
19:55 < seba-> nmz787_i, i was thinking it would be interesting to have cylindrical magnets on servo motors to make a homogenous field
19:55 < digshadow> nmz787_i: why not
19:56 < nmz787_i> seba-: know very little of NMR
19:56 < digshadow> unless you can find me a cheap SDD
19:56 < seba-> oh
19:56 < nmz787_i> digshadow: just asking if that's what you meant... and wanted to make fun of SiLi pronouciation
19:56 < nmz787_i> i was making my gamma detector to go into a FIB
19:56 < nmz787_i> to do PIXE detection
19:56 < seba-> nmz787_i, a DIY NMR is on my DIY list :D
19:56 < nmz787_i> for thickness monitoring
19:56 < digshadow> ah cool
19:57 < digshadow> I need to figure out how to hook it up
19:57 <@fenn> TLA OCR DEMUX is on my list
19:57 < seba-> i'll make it someday lol
19:57 < digshadow> if anyone has access to EDS systems
19:57 < digshadow> especially by PGT
19:57 < seba-> heh
19:57 < digshadow> I could really use some setup photos
19:57 < nmz787_i> i soldered it up but then got a day job and the guy with the FIB hasn't bugged me about it
19:57 < seba-> what about x-ray diffraction spectroscopy
19:57 < digshadow> and/or docs
19:57 < kanzure> yeah we should really ban acronyms
19:57 < seba-> anybody made it?
19:57 < seba-> it shouldn't be hard
19:57 < nmz787_i> seba-: XDS is pretty much any other spectroscopy
19:57 <@fenn> huh? not at all
19:58 < nmz787_i> no?
19:58 < seba-> no
19:58 < seba-> you can get structure
19:58 < nmz787_i> isn't it just using sub-UV illumination?
19:58 <@fenn> you get a diffraction angle spectrum from a single x ray frequency, not a spectrum of different frequencies
19:58 < nmz787_i> oh, crystallography?
19:58 < seba-> also powder diffraction is fun
19:58 < seba-> you can quickly identify compounds
19:58 < nmz787_i> ah
19:58 < seba-> :)
19:58 < seba-> and XRF also hm
19:58 < seba-> hehe
19:59 < nmz787_i> yeah I guess that is one of the detector uses i was looking at
19:59 < nmz787_i> but having an xray source takes a lot more research
19:59 < seba-> i was thinking you could use a monocrystalline cell
19:59 < seba-> for the diffractor
19:59 < nmz787_i> i don't want to marie-curie myself
19:59 < seba-> why not
19:59 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v398/n6725/abs/398310a0.html
19:59 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2F18631
19:59 < seba-> it's safe
19:59 < seba-> you can use russian electronic tubes
19:59 < seba-> for x-ray sources
19:59 <@fenn> for the near term a portable multi-wavelength raman spectrometer seems more feasible
19:59 < nmz787_i> digshadow: the LPC Link V2 has 80MSPS onboard its IC
19:59 < seba-> you just put them to few 10 kV
20:00 < nmz787_i> digshadow: aka LPC4370
20:00 < seba-> a guy i know has made a home made x-ray
20:00 < seba-> he takes photo of stuff
20:00 < nmz787_i> yeah, i'm on some xray lists
20:00 < seba-> it's fun
20:00 <@fenn> x-rays do seem useful for 3d scanning though
20:00 < seba-> he used an electronic tube
20:00 < seba-> and then those fluorescent screens
20:00 < seba-> a mirror
20:00 < seba-> and a camera :)
20:00 <@fenn> take a movie like this and build cad geometry from it https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Webcam_CT_transmissions.OGG
20:01 < kanzure> opencascade claims to do point cloud to nurbs surface
20:01 <@fenn> fuck point clouds
20:01 < kanzure> yeah, well...
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20:02 <@fenn> you'd probably build an octree model first and then fit geometric primitives to that
20:02 < kanzure> hi joshhua
20:02 <@fenn> i'm not so hot on my "expectation maximization algorithm" understanding
20:03 < nmz787_i> grumble grumble
20:03 <@fenn> but it seems intuitively simple to project rays through a sphere of voxels, where ray intensity is proportional to the density seen in the x-ray
20:03 < kanzure> there's tonnns of surface approximation stuff in opencascade
20:03 < nmz787_i> stderr is still stuck
20:03 < nmz787_i> http://paste.pound-python.org/show/i1e898hiYuwMO72XsjnT/
20:03 < nmz787_i> http://paste.pound-python.org/show/vXxyUQZFdFu8RJ0s8zwI/
20:03 < kanzure> did you read the link i gave you
20:03 < nmz787_i> yeah
20:03 < nmz787_i> implemented in that demo
20:03 < kanzure> http://stefaanlippens.net/python-asynchronous-subprocess-pipe-reading
20:03 < nmz787_i> (it consists of two files)
20:03 < kanzure> hm
20:04 < nmz787_i> another link says ""Luckily the solution is fairly simple. Instead of setting stdout and stderr to PIPE, they need to be given proper file (or unix pipe) objects that will accept a reasonable amount of data.""
20:04 < nmz787_i> http://thraxil.org/users/anders/posts/2008/03/13/Subprocess-Hanging-PIPE-is-your-enemy/
20:04 < nmz787_i> i saw this earlier today too
20:04 < nmz787_i> where someone used a tempfile for output, then readlines from that in their watcher
20:04 < kanzure> dingo: poke, maybe you can insta-guess nmz787_i's problem
20:04 < nmz787_i> oh well, I guess I'll work on that
20:05 < dingo> hehe as maintainer of pexpect i should know this one...
20:05 < nmz787_i> if the second of those two pastes redirects its stdout to a textbox or something tho... having a file will be good
20:05 < nmz787_i> unless I figure out how to catch a global exception (try except around a call to main function?)
20:06 < dingo> there is a hook to catch all exceptions everywhere
20:06 < dingo> you can install that
20:06 < nmz787_i> and then reset the output to the original pipe
20:06 < dingo> a bit of a callback mechanism
20:06 < nmz787_i> dingo: basically i have a GUI that launches other GUIs
20:06 < nmz787_i> in the launcher i have a textbox where i want std out/err to go
20:06 < dingo> sys.excepthook
20:07 < dingo> .
20:07 < dingo> Where I encountered it was when the command being run was doing an svn checkout. The checkout would run for a while and then the svn command would hang at some point.
20:07 < nmz787_i> when I launch a new process using subprocess.popen, after it gets up and running, the new process then redirects stdout and stderr to its own textbox
20:07 < dingo> this is because the stdout/err buffer has reached its buffer limit
20:07 < dingo> and you haven't read it
20:07 <@fenn> there is a ridiculously large amount of information here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_fluorescence
20:08 < nmz787_i> dingo: so when the second GUI has an exception, it it was redirecting to its own textbox, all the errors would be lost in the buffer, or in the textbox but that got closed when the program had an exception
20:08 < dingo> its like if i did: jot 100000 1 | (while read value; sleep 10; done)
20:08 < dingo> the first process will run/block for a really long time, because the consumer is not exausting the buffer
20:08 < kanzure> should we be telling him to use your python async library
20:09 < nmz787_i> dingo: other times, i guess depending on the function being performed, the exception happens in a thread, so the second GUI doesn't crash-close... but the stderr is still stuck in the pipe
20:09 < nmz787_i> dingo: but I've got the consumer in a thread, just consuming
20:09 < nmz787_i> so it seems weird that it would get filled
20:10 < dingo> https://github.com/jquast/blessed/blob/master/blessed/tests/accessories.py#L58
20:10 < dingo> notice i use os._exit(0) in the exception handler
20:10 < dingo> because otherwise a SystemExit exception is thrown and caught by the parent
20:10 < dingo> something like a fork-bomb ensues, otherwise
20:11 < dingo> thats a fork()
20:11 < dpk> http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/frustrated-scholar-creates-new-route-for-funding-and-publishing-academic-work/53073?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en
20:11 < dpk> argh utmcrap
20:11 < dingo> you have a main process, you have threads A and B; A's stderr/out is consumed by thread B? that seems very wrong
20:11 < dingo> they share the same filedescriptors
20:12 < dingo> you want to use pty.fork()
20:12 < dingo> like this test case, https://github.com/jquast/blessed/blob/master/blessed/tests/test_keyboard.py#L119
20:13 < dingo> anyway you could use pexpect if you really want hehe
20:13 < nmz787_i> dingo: wexpext is what i need to look into on windows
20:13 < dingo> its full of hundreds of lines of edge-case handling :-)
20:13 < nmz787_i> wexpect
20:13 < dingo> indeed -- we're looking to merge wexpect into pexpect into 4.0 release
20:14 < dingo> to make it a single interface across both platforms
20:14 < dingo> for windows man., wow, you're on your own, enjoy :-)
20:14 < dingo> no terminals, much less pty's, its all very crude
20:14 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20:14 < dingo> windows has "terminals" but they're nothing like unix ASR-33-based teletype terminals
20:14 < nmz787_i> honestly I'm having a hard time with the code you pasted :)
20:15 < dingo> thats ok i had a hard time writing it, hehe
20:15 < digshadow> nmz787_i: I need a good adc for digitizing the sem
20:15 < nmz787_i> but this is windows-only
20:15 < dingo> pty.fork() won't work on windows, so ignore me then
20:15 < digshadow> have you had good experience with the LPC4370?
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20:15 < dingo> i guess i would recommend wexpect, go with that
20:15 < dingo> the maintainerhsip has laxed on it a bit, but presumably people have had success with it
20:15 < nmz787_i> digshadow: its been OK, its a big processor, lots of peripherals, shitty online help as they probably want to weed out the ppl with no money to pay for engineering or something
20:15 < nmz787_i> idk why these processor docs suck so bad
20:16 < nmz787_i> but i guess working at intel now for a while i kinda get a better picture
20:16 < nmz787_i> some ppl/coworkers say other semiconductor companies are much worse
20:16 < nmz787_i> dingo: thanks, I'll have to read up
20:17 < nmz787_i> dingo: for now I've just been commenting out the second GUI's redirection (just to a textbox, so no threading there)
20:17 < digshadow> 12 bit isn't super high res
20:17 < nmz787_i> dingo: so any errors will go into the PIPE, not be lost if the second GUI crashes
20:17 < digshadow> I don't have specs yet for what I need though
20:17 < digshadow> might be neough
20:17 < nmz787_i> but its pretty annoying that stderr doesn't print until i close the second GUI
20:18 < dingo> well for example on unix -- stdout is lined-buffered and stderr is unbuffered
20:18 < nmz787_i> digshadow: I know azonenberg was talking with someone recently about a 250msps adc and interleaving
20:18 < dingo> like if i do "sys.stdout.write('aaaaaa')" the person consuming it won't see it... until i either issue sys.stdout.flush() or sys.stdout.write('\n')
20:18 < nmz787_i> he was commenting/helping someone else tho
20:18 < dingo> i would imagine something like that is happening to you
20:18 < nmz787_i> i think in #oshpark
20:18 < dingo> its in a buffer, but not flushed
20:18 < nmz787_i> mmm
20:19 <@fenn> dingo: possibly a dumb suggestion but have you thought about 24-bit sound cards?
20:19 < digshadow> I think my signal is pretty slow
20:19 < nmz787_i> dingo: yeah I think the subprocess popen takes care of that with bufsize=1
20:19 <@fenn> di^I^I blargh
20:19 <@fenn> digshadow:
20:19 < nmz787_i> dingo: but yeah apparently not for stderr
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20:20 < digshadow> well more accurately I can make it slow
20:21 <@fenn> digshadow: what is the ADC doing exactly?
20:21 < nmz787_i> digshadow: i just made a board with a 6msps adc that has 16 bits
20:21 <@fenn> is this just analog to digital video conversion?
20:22 <@fenn> does it have HSYNC and all that jazz
20:24 < nmz787_i> this might be the analog ADC pdf i'm thinking of http://www.analog.com/library/analogdialogue/archives/43-09/edch%206%20converter.pdf
20:24 < nmz787_i> my kindle has a good overview of the diff types and such
20:24 < nmz787_i> fenn: it does have all that I think, but I'm not using it
20:25 < digshadow> fenn: yeah
20:25 < digshadow> I'm not sure
20:25 < digshadow> but I have full shcematics if you are bored
20:25 < digshadow> hehe
20:25 < nmz787_i> fenn: or its expected you are watching that and know when to tell it to sample
20:25 < digshadow> fenn: http://siliconpr0n.org/uv/super_iiia/schematic_raw/
20:25 < digshadow> I'm working on getting it up first
20:25 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:25 < digshadow> so haven't really looked into it yet
20:26 < nmz787_i> this is the ADC i just used http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/imaging_adcs/WM8253/
20:27 < nmz787_i> its for CCD or CIS, so not analog video with hsync and crap
20:27 < dingo> nmz787_i: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/vXxyUQZFdFu8RJ0s8zwI/ <- as far as this goes; your stdout/err is shared in this process; both of them, sys.__stdout__.fileno() is equal -- they write to the same place -- there is a new pattern in python -- http://bugs.python.org/issue15805 you could use -- but this won't work with threads, because, again, you share file descriptors between threads
20:27 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d205-250-248-248.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:28 <@fenn> welp it's the right century at least
20:29 < dingo> if you really want to capture exceptions; do a real threading.Thread() subclass, with a run() method that catches all exceptions, then uses the traceback.format_tb like i do here, https://github.com/jquast/blessed/blob/master/blessed/tests/accessories.py#L58 -- save it to a class state variable, "error", and the main process can see "this thread is complete, and its 'error' value is non-zero, let me display it"
20:29 <@fenn> there are probably dedicated converters for the signal it outputs, but you'll want to use a multiple channel ADC for correlating your x-ray spectra
20:30 <@fenn> nevermind don't listen to me
20:31 < digshadow> all I know is there is a pre-amp on the EDS  already
20:31 < digshadow> if I can get away with PC audio capture
20:31 < digshadow> I'll try that first
20:31 < digshadow> as a first test
20:31 < digshadow>  and do something more specialized after if need be
20:31 < kanzure> dpk: he's been pimping his site all over the web for a week now, it's getting annoying. i also don't think crowdfunding for science is a good idea because you'll just end up with your regular distribution of funding like you always do, except skewed towards media-competent science groups..
20:31 <@fenn> if the scanning electronics are designed to run a TV you probably can't slow them down too much
20:31 < digshadow> ha
20:32 < digshadow> fenn: maybe
20:32 < digshadow> but
20:32 < digshadow> it has scan rate control IIRC
20:32 < digshadow> people take photos
20:32 < digshadow> and needed control for those
20:32 < digshadow> polaroid
20:32 <@fenn> huh? scan rate controls the rate the beam sweeps across the image, no?
20:32 < digshadow> anyway, I may just be able to take more capture
20:32 < digshadow> and average it out
20:33 < digshadow> the CRTs are like o-scopes
20:33 < digshadow> they have xy inputs + intensity
20:33 < digshadow> you can scan at arbitrary speed
20:33 < digshadow> there is no sync pulse
20:33 <@fenn> uh, ok
20:33 <@fenn> very long decay phosphors i assume
20:34 < nmz787_i> digshadow: you could get 'photobleaching' or something like it though
20:34 < nmz787_i> digshadow: so your signal might degrade with multiple passes
20:34 <@fenn> digshadow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvSNMs9ioNI shining a UV laser through a multifaceted prism onto a SEM screen
20:34 < nmz787_i> digshadow: video should be easy though ;)
20:34 < kanzure> .title
20:34 < yoleaux> optic sheep
20:35 < nmz787_i> dingo: why do you say they share the same pipe?
20:35 < nmz787_i> or fd
20:35 < dingo> files are shared acrossed threads -- including your stdout and stderr
20:35 < digshadow> is that at noisebrige?
20:36 < nmz787_i> dingo: when i call that file with subprocess.popen i give it a subprocess.PIPE for each stdout and stderr arg
20:36 < dingo> two threads can open a single file and write to it -- quite dangerously
20:36 -!- gradstudentbot [~gradstude@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:36 < nmz787_i> dingo: not sure what you mean sharing files across threads though
20:36 < nmz787_i> dingo: i thought the subprocess.PIPE generated a new file desc
20:36 < nmz787_i> each time it was used
20:36 <@fenn> digshadow: yeah that's me and mike kan (tinkerhack)
20:37 < digshadow> yes, I know him
20:37 < digshadow> I tried using that sem
20:37 < digshadow> but it has a vacuum leak
20:37 < nmz787_i> :/ you seem to be saying PIPE is a variable, not a magic returns somethin new each time its called like a func
20:37 < digshadow> (I'm in mountain view)
20:37 < dingo> ahh well for subprocess.PIPE its different, yes, sorry, i was looking only at the 2nd program
20:37 <@fenn> oh, right
20:37 <@fenn> do i know you? :P
20:37 < digshadow> you might ;)
20:38 <@fenn> are you in one of those warehouses where hacker dojo used to be?
20:38 < digshadow> no
20:38 <@fenn> i used to live there fwiw
20:38 < digshadow> fenn: https://plus.google.com/photos/117750254503792451904/albums/5807732024740472289/6002170799888186754?banner=pwa&pid=6002170799888186754&oid=117750254503792451904
20:38 < kanzure> approved
20:39 <@fenn> ugh just when i thought picasa couldn't get any worse
20:39 < digshadow> yeah
20:39 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: you're now obliggated to top that, possibly by being reckless/dangerous
20:39 < digshadow> google nom nom'd it
20:39 < digshadow> trying to shove gplus down people's throats
20:40 < kanzure> digshadow: have you run into the langton lab crew?
20:40 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:40 < digshadow> hmm
20:40 < kanzure> langton labs, i mean
20:40 < digshadow> don't know who they are
20:41 <@fenn> are those merrell ventilators? i am wearing those shoes
20:41 < kanzure> they are the whole brain emulation, knife-edge brain cutting microscopy, phd molecular biology collective in sf
20:41 < kanzure> also artisan thing
20:41 <@fenn> your typical science meets burning man clusterfuck
20:42 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:42 < kanzure> man why'd we lose both superkuh and xentrac
20:42 < kanzure> i bet he's just gaming
20:43 <@fenn> grr i hate google plus
20:43 <@fenn> and especially picasa
20:43 < digshadow> fenn: does mike kan hang out on irc?  is that his handle?
20:44 <@fenn> not that i know of.
20:44 < digshadow> ah okay
20:44 < digshadow> the other fellow that knows me is miloh
20:44 < digshadow> who I take it you know?
20:45 -!- Adifex is now known as night
20:45 < digshadow> fenn: anywya let me know if anything crazy is going down
20:45 < digshadow> its a long way to SF
20:45 < digshadow> but if something cool is going down give me a ring
20:45 <@fenn> this is after it asked me to re-enter my password for no reason http://fennetic.net/irc/picasa_fail.png
20:45 < digshadow> (or something cloesr to me of course)
20:46 < kanzure> there's the integrated plasmonics people near you.. they are fun.
20:46 < digshadow> I might switch file sharing site
20:46 < digshadow> maybe host my own for better stability
20:46 < digshadow> not sure
20:46 < kanzure> we can host you
20:46 <@fenn> integrated plasmonics moved to the mission district in sf
20:46 < kanzure> what
20:46 < kanzure> those posers
20:46 -!- drewbot_ [~cinch@ec2-54-211-249-20.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:47 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-226-189-170.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:47 < kanzure> well... delinquentme is near mountain view
20:47 < kanzure> but i wouldn't inflict him on others
20:47 < kanzure> juul is east bay at the moment i think
20:47 <@fenn> digshadow: yeah i know miloh, he's a nice guy, probably the only person who ever showed any interest in what i was doing with the makerbot
20:47 < kanzure> digshadow: have you stopped by biocurious ever?
20:48 <@fenn> anyway i live near DC now
20:50 < nmz787_i> ttyl
20:53 <@fenn> does the knightscope robot say "exterminate!" as it trundles around
20:54 < digshadow> kanzure: no but I talked to them briefly at maker's faire
20:54 < digshadow> donated some old glassware to them
20:54 < digshadow> I still have more for htem
20:54 < digshadow> if I meet them again
20:54 < kanzure> unfortunately they have always been extremely dysfunctional
20:55 < kanzure> but otherwise worth knowing the existence of
20:55 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:55 < kanzure> it sort of became a place for unemployed boring people to meet
20:55 < kanzure> and then jojack moved to san diego to start another one
20:55 < digshadow> no idea what integrated plasmonics does
20:55 < digshadow> looks like they aren't too open
20:55 < digshadow> ha
20:56 < digshadow> fenn: interestingly enough
20:56 < digshadow> we met in berlin
20:56 < digshadow> but turned out to live near each other
20:56 < kanzure> ccc?
20:57 < digshadow> you're not entirely wrong
20:57 < digshadow> ehsm
20:57 < digshadow> which was in berlin
20:57 < digshadow> to be a side event to ccc
20:57 < digshadow> but that year ccc moved
20:57 < gradstudentbot> The real reason I wanted to join this lab was because I love to clean glassware.
20:57 <@fenn> Exceptionally Hard and Soft Meeting
20:57 < digshadow> yes
20:58 <@fenn> http://ehsm.eu
20:58 <@fenn> what are those tunnels
20:59 <@fenn> did you nuke the communists
21:01 <@fenn> lana sator is my hero http://fennetic.net/irc/lana_sator_energomash2.jpg
21:01 < kanzure> "Born in USSR, died in Russia: an exploration of decaying Soviet technology" ""The Cold War was a period of ambitious military, industrial and scientific projects, motivated by the competition with the opposing superpower. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, many of their facilities were simply abandoned, forgotten and left to rot. Urban explorer Lana Sator's expeditions and pictures give a dramatic insight into the breadth of ...
21:01 < kanzure> ... technologies that people can build given enough motive, and how frail those motives can be"
21:01 < kanzure> get off my brain wavelength god damn it
21:02 <@fenn> i found it first. in 2012
21:02 < kanzure> ok you can stay
21:03 <@fenn> i believe she is sitting in an energia test stand
21:03 < kanzure> huh, clifford wolf is doing vhdl things. i wonder if he'll fuck that up as much as openscad.
21:03 < kanzure> (on that page)
21:04 < kanzure> oh, at least it mentions openscad. hah.
21:05 < kanzure> lots of people to stalk
21:07 <@fenn> must.. close.. tabs...
21:07 < kanzure> don't do it. closing a tab is a bug.
21:08 <@fenn> but do i really need https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_grade_helium
21:08 <@fenn> it just redirects to helium
21:09 <@fenn> shit now you got me reading it
21:10 < kanzure> you can leave it open without assimilating
21:10 < kanzure> it just becomes technical debt or something
21:10 <@fenn> "tab guilt"
21:10 <@fenn> actually i just run out of ram and swap and everything comes screeching to a halt
21:12 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:12 <@fenn> crowdfunding science works better than official institutional science because individuals can use surplus junk equipment which costs basically nothing, but for which they would have no chance of getting a grant
21:13 <@fenn> grants are judged on the soundness of the science, not the dollar amount so much
21:14 < kanzure> begging is not a sustainable business model
21:14 <@fenn> i'd rather throw N dollars at a larger number of dingbat proposals than a tiny number of "old-guy approved" proposals
21:14 <@fenn> but then i'm not approving the grants
21:14 <@fenn> nobody ever got rich by not asking for money
21:15 < kanzure> digshadow: i want computer-controlled microscope hooked up to an irc bot (for motion control) that streams video
21:15 < digshadow> so I can do cnc: left
21:15 < digshadow> ?
21:15 < digshadow> wouldn't a javascript app be much nicer to control?
21:15 < kanzure> in my head it would be more hilarious, like "gradstudentbot, move left pls kthx"
21:15 < gradstudentbot> You used the wrong formula.
21:15 < digshadow> irc seems awkward
21:15 <@fenn> no it should be hooked up to a GPS sensor so you have to drive your car around the city while looking at your phone
21:15 < digshadow> I like that idea :)
21:15 < kanzure> well, the irc aspect is just for collaborative viewing reasons
21:16 < kanzure> and getting links to a saved photo of the current image
21:16 < kanzure> or a link to the stream
21:16 < kanzure> and control because i'm lazy
21:16 < digshadow> or you use your computer control
21:16 < digshadow> to make a giant mosaic
21:16 < digshadow> http://siliconpr0n.org/map/cbm/65ce02/r1_top_metal_mit20x/
21:17 <@fenn> that only works for static chips, he wants to poke at worm brains or something
21:17 < digshadow> ah okay
21:17 <@fenn> squiggly moving blobs
21:17 < kanzure> well, not just moving blobs
21:17 < kanzure> i just think it's pathetic thta we don't have a microscope
21:17 < kanzure> hooked up to irc
21:17 < kanzure> that's all. i'm sure it would be used for non-living things.
21:17 <@fenn> .title http://youtube.com/watch?v=lCmbwSCYF9o
21:17 < yoleaux> ESKMO - We Have Invisible Friends
21:17 < digshadow> kanzure: you are not in bay area right
21:17 < kanzure> nope, i just visit to get paid
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21:18 < digshadow> kanzure: what is stopping you from doing it
21:19 <@fenn> it would interfere with his IRC time
21:19 < kanzure> well honestly i was just going to offload it all on fenn or nmz787
21:20 < kanzure> delegation!
21:20 <@fenn> i think it would be a useful exercise for you to learn basic electronics and motion control
21:21 < kanzure> because i want to delegate it means i don't have experience with electronics?
21:21 <@fenn> actually with the reprap stuff it's now so easy you wouldn't learn anything
21:21 < kanzure> the electronics aren't hard at all
21:22 < kanzure> (in this context)
21:23 < kanzure> man is that really what you think of me
21:23 <@fenn> well you never finished your robot arm
21:23 < kanzure> because dave took it and then legal reasons
21:24 <@fenn> what? he just walked off with a 500 pound beast?
21:24 < kanzure> technically it was stored on the back of his truck
21:24 <@fenn> that sounds like a bad storage place :(
21:25 < kanzure> well, actually, it was something about him moving? so he loaded it back up. i think that's the story.
21:25 <@fenn> so where did it end up?
21:25 < kanzure> dunno.
21:25 <@fenn> probably sitting right next to my box of hextatic parts (rawr)
21:25 < kanzure> the point is, i had to get lawyers involved and a silly $300 pile of junk was not top of my priorities compared to income owed to me
21:25 < kanzure> nope
21:26 <@fenn> guh. so i've been thinking about building a boat so i can just put all my stuff in the boat and live in the boat and sail wherever i want to go
21:26 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:27 <@fenn> then i dont have to keep stockpiles of components and tools stashed all over the continent and lose them every 5 years or so
21:27 <@fenn> stupid panama canal though
21:27 <@fenn> there needs to be a trans-rocky mountain boat pipeline
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21:36 < kanzure> tough crowd in here
21:38 <@fenn> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsfL19FV3qg
21:38 < yoleaux> Dnepr Launch of SkySat-1 11/21/13
21:39 < kanzure> damn i should have made a snappy remark about hextatic instead
21:39 < kanzure> i will endeavor to be more scathing in the future
21:39 <@fenn> such scathe
21:39 < kanzure> .ety scathe
21:39 < yoleaux> scathe (v.): "c.1200, from Old Norse skaða "to hurt, harm, damage, injure," from Proto-Germanic *skath- (cognates: Old English sceaþian "to hurt, injure," Old Saxon skathon, Old Frisian skethia, Middle Dutch scaden, Dutch schaden, Old High German scadon,  …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=scathe
21:40 <@fenn> oh how i long for the days before "make" was a noun
21:41 < kanzure> "the build is broken"?
21:41 < kanzure> "what's the make of the car?"
21:41 <@fenn> bah
21:42 <@fenn> i just mean that it used to be obvious that "maker" was a synonym for "douchebag who bough into tim o'reilly's magazine empire"
21:42 < digshadow> fenn: what about the launch?
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21:43 <@fenn> oh. uh, that rocket knows how to make an entrance
21:43 <@fenn> and an exit
21:43 <@fenn> i'm sort of curious how you get anywhere near it
21:45 <@fenn> the russian space industry seems quite a bit different from the american one
21:46 < digshadow> fenn: how so
21:46 <@fenn> well they seem a lot more personal, like "hi i'm vitaly so and so here's the rocket i built in 1986 to destroy capitalism"
21:47 <@fenn> 3d animated gifs of the cad models of the rocket, lots of historical info and timelines
21:48 <@fenn> you can buy a book written by the rocket designers about their rocket, etc.
21:48 <@fenn> meanwhile lockheed martin or raytheon are all, "please select the region you are doing business from."
21:49 <@fenn> with a map of the globe and a "ISO-9001 corporate buzzword compliant"
21:49 < kanzure> reply from beejal <lajeeb@gmail.com>:
21:49 < kanzure> "hi Bryan - thank you for your interest. sadly we never got to a production stage for this system. our group didn't get further than a proof-of-concept prototype for the dlp photolithography system...and also we never got around to creating an open-source documentation for it. (it is still on our list of things-to-do). it has been awhile, but from what i remember we bought a used dlp projector from ebay, replaced the original bulb with a UV ...
21:49 < kanzure> ... bulb, and projected images from the computer to the projector onto a photosensitive resist on a substrate. i remember focusing became problematic for micrometer work, but the system worked good for creating relatively larger microfluidic devices. our colleague, john waynelovich, did a lot of work with the dlp system"
21:49 < kanzure> huh, so i guess they really are just using an unmodified microscope
21:50 <@fenn> but more importantly lockheed has zero interest in talking to anybody about anything (and are legally prohibited from doing so in most cases)
21:50 < kanzure> he links to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1VupG7pOcQ#t=63
21:50 < kanzure> .title
21:50 < yoleaux> LightBuilders
21:51 <@fenn> well duh
21:51 <@fenn> micron is approaching the wavelength of light
21:51 <@fenn> you need big bucks for diffraction limited optics
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21:52 < kanzure> why do i need diffraction limited optics to do micron-resolution-anything?
21:52 <@fenn> because the diffraction limit is like 600nm
21:53 <@fenn> .wik diffraction limit
21:53 < yoleaux> "The resolution of an optical imaging system –  a microscope, telescope, or camera –  can be limited by factors such as imperfections in the lenses or misalignment. However, there is a fundamental maximum to the resolution of any optical system which is due to diffraction." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction_limit
21:53 <@fenn> wow i wish i could read that equation
21:53 <@fenn> .wa diffraction limit
21:53 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
21:53 < digshadow> yoleaux: thats not entirely true
21:53 < digshadow> thats for far field optics
21:54 <@fenn> are you talking about PALM and STORM etc
21:54 <@fenn> or sub-wavelength gratings
21:54 <@fenn> oh and two-photon
21:55 <@fenn> that wouldn't be too hard to do with a DLP actually
21:55 < kanzure> what specifically are you "well duh"ing?
21:56 <@fenn> "i remember focusing became problematic for micrometer work"
21:57 < kanzure> why doesn't anyone take measurements
21:57 < kanzure> does that mean 1 micron, 10 microns, 100 microns?
21:57 <@fenn> i assumed he meant 1 micron but i see your point
21:59 < kanzure> also, in that video, that was a projector pointed straight at the material without additional optics
21:59 <@fenn> huh how would that work
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21:59 <@fenn> it wouldnt be able to focus that close
21:59  * fenn watches the video
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21:59 < kanzure> hrm wait no, there's a black thing in front of it
22:00 < kanzure> and there is probably a lense in the black panel
22:00 <@fenn> "design features using powerpoint"
22:00 <@fenn> i hope i'm not the only one rolling my eyes
22:01 < kanzure> well this system makes everyone else look like a moron
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22:01 <@fenn> it has a lens on it
22:01 < kanzure> not the end of the world
22:01 < kanzure> now which lens? hrm
22:02 < kanzure> description says "Complex microfluidics features can easily be achieved, down to double digit micron sizes."
22:02 < kanzure> well which digits! argh
22:02 <@fenn> those lines are much bigger than 1 micron
22:02 < kanzure> definitely
22:02 <@fenn> much bigger than 100 microns
22:03 < gradstudentbot> Oh yeah, isn't that already a part on the biobrick registry?
22:03 <@fenn> i would estimate 500 microns
22:04 <@fenn> if it has the same dimensions as the powerpoint slide.. although i bet it's blurred somewhat and the lines are wider than that
22:04 <@fenn> what is their magical white coating
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22:09 <@fenn> i was playing around with a magnifying glass and a cellphone, you can easily shrink the screen image down quite a bit
22:09 <@fenn> i could get it down to about 1 cm across
22:10 <@fenn> a projector is much higher power obviously
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22:13 < kanzure> "at the moment we have moved on to other projects - john with his soft robotics, and abtin and i with software development. we are all getting together next week - ill see if there exists any collection of notes that i can forward to you."
22:15 <@fenn> so where are all these super high resolution microscopy images like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2color-STED-example.png
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22:15 < kanzure> what do you mean where? who's?
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22:16 <@fenn> well i just haven't seen very many full-page high resolution photos
22:16 <@fenn> like the nikon small world competition
22:16 < kanzure> there's lots of better images on youtube :\
22:16 <@fenn> but youtube is videos
22:16 < kanzure> yeah i know :(
22:17 <@fenn> what?
22:17 <@fenn> these techniques only produce static images
22:17 <@fenn> or 3d datasets at least
22:17 < kanzure> i'm confused. are you asking me to find you normal microscopy pictures of microscopic channels?
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22:21 <@fenn> btw Science magazine has a pretty cool cover image today https://www.sciencemag.org/content/344/6187.cover-expansion  (sorry i cant find higher resolution image)
22:22 <@fenn> it is a 3d rendering in the spirit of david goodsell or drew berry
22:23 <@fenn> also they've gone and tarted it all up with explanatory text
22:23 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/344/6187/1023
22:24 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1252884
22:24 < kanzure> hooray now i can download at 4 bytes/second from russia
22:24 <@fenn> i'm getting a solid 5KB/s
22:28 < kanzure> so digshadow claims the blame for azonenberg.. interesting.
22:30 < kanzure> that part of the story is not usually mentioned
22:30 < kanzure> or ever
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22:33 < kanzure> welcome back
22:34 < kanzure> that paper has neat visualizations
22:34 < kanzure> 'synaptosome' biologists being biologists..
22:34 <@fenn> no fair i'm still downloading
22:35 <@fenn> also i dont get why i can't just download it with elinks on gnusha
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22:41 < kanzure> just use this one,
22:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Composition%20of%20isolated%20synaptic%20boutons%20reveals%20the%20amounts%20of%20vesicle%20trafficking%20proteins.pdf
22:42 <@fenn> it's done now
22:42 <@fenn> wait a minute
22:43 <@fenn> i have the paper sitting right next to me
22:43 <@fenn> what the hell is wrong with me
22:44 <@fenn> can zoom in more on the pdf though :)
22:46 < kanzure> magnifying glass
22:47 <@fenn> it has half tone
22:48 <@fenn> ok kanzure now you have to make a synaptic protein game based on pokemon
22:49 <@fenn> clathrin, i choose you!
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23:00 <@fenn> digshadow: fwiw the astronomy guys use cast pitch (pine tar resin) to lap telescope mirrors
23:01 < digshadow> cool
23:01 <@fenn> it never completely solidifies so it keeps things aligned but in contact
23:02 <@fenn> it might be worth your time to investigate "superfinishing" a slow surface speed abrasive process developed by chrysler for accurate grinding of roller bearings
23:03 <@fenn> the workpiece floats on a microscopic layer of coolant and moves in random directions over a relatively coarse abrasive that acts mroe like a cutting tool than a smusher
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23:04 <@fenn> the superfinishing process rapidly removes any bumps to give a mirror finish and flat surface geometry, and after that material removal rate is very slow
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23:05 < digshadow> fenn: hmm
23:06 < digshadow> i'd be suspicious that it might be smooth but uneven
23:06 <@fenn> no it has to be flat because the process relies on a very short distance between the surfaces to provide the hydrodynamic floating force
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23:10 <@fenn> superfinishing seems to be a lost art, and those who know how aren't talking
23:15 <@fenn> wikipedia/darmann abrasive products claim it leaves a cross-hatch instead of a mirror finish; this is wrong
23:17 <@fenn> "Swigert Jr., Arthur M. (1940), The story of superfinish," this book has the real story
23:23 <@fenn> wow i feel like i'm in high school shop class in new delhi: http://youtube.com/watch?v=VnupA3d6f0E
23:23 < kanzure> .title
23:23 < yoleaux> SUPER FINISHING
23:27 <@fenn> i'm going to start wearing a turban like that in the machine shop
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--- Log closed Sat Jun 07 00:00:27 2014