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[~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:51 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-24-37-9.ppp.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:55 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@95.5.79.237] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:56 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@95.5.79.237] has quit [Changing host] 07:56 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:05 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-24-37-9.ppp.as43234.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:08 -!- joepie91_ [5064fe45@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.100.254.69] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:11 -!- nshsome [~unf@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:16 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@unaffiliated/mosasaur] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:22 -!- nshsome [~unf@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:23 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:24 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:28 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:29 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:33 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:36 < eudoxia> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=512563&type=pdf&CFID=360860417&CFTOKEN=62717114 08:36 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/52401e0920b0808eb19a147341ffaf97.pdf 08:37 < eudoxia> thanks, 'bot 08:46 < kanzure> dbolser: you should store a copy of library genesis 08:47 < kanzure> eudoxia: tooltip stiffness requirements? gene_hacker would like to know 08:48 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51 < eudoxia> kanzure: no idea lol 08:52 < kanzure> bah 08:53 < kanzure> what good is an obsession with diamondoid mechanosynthesis if you don't know the parameters off the top of your head 08:53 < kanzure> or, uh, something 08:58 < eudoxia> the minimal toolset paper, page 764 might be what you want (20 Newtons per meter) 09:00 < kanzure> didn't i say that yesterday 09:00 < kanzure> haha yes 09:01 < eudoxia> ahahahhahaha 09:03 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-24-37-9.ppp.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:03 < eudoxia> > If ks is 10 N/m, the positional uncertainty s at room temperature is ~0.02 nm (nanometers). This is accurate enough to permit alignment of molecular parts to within a fraction of an atomic diameter. 09:03 < eudoxia> http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/mbb/other.html 09:09 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:14 < kanzure> zen of assembly language https://github.com/jagregory/abrash-zen-of-asm 09:14 < kanzure> web view, http://www.jagregory.com/abrash-zen-of-asm/ 09:20 < kanzure> "These next few posts are a technical write-up of how I created 8088 Domination, which is a program that displays fairly decent full-motion video on a 1981 IBM PC." http://trixter.oldskool.org/2014/06/19/8088-domination-post-mortem-part-1/ 09:29 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:31 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:33 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll_-_ngu4Gg&t=7m 09:33 < yoleaux> BBC Horizon 1978 Now The Chips Are Down 09:33 < kanzure> has some old school pics of semiconductor manufacturing stuff 09:34 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:40 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:46 < archels> http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/184640-spacex-says-it-will-put-humans-on-mars-by-2026-almost-10-years-ahead-of-nasa 09:47 < eudoxia> i want to believe 09:53 -!- nshsome [~unf@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:55 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-rxgwflhwielwbhqt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:56 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.37] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:00 < nmz787_i> ParahSailin: ran strace through cygwin, didn't seem too helpful 10:01 < nmz787_i> ParahSailin: http://pastebin.com/J6VN2yDj 10:01 < ParahSailin> that is weird, what was your strace command? 10:02 < nmz787_i> strace PortablePythonDir\App\pythonw.exe GUIPath\GuiDir\Gui.py 10:03 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:03 < ParahSailin> what happens with regular python.exe 10:03 < nmz787_i> i didn't try, but it was still crashing without the strace involved 10:04 < nmz787_i> (i didn't try with strace) 10:04 < ParahSailin> your gui.py is forking lots of different pids? 10:04 < kanzure> strace -f 10:05 < nmz787_i> it's called subprocess.Popen on at least one process that was still running just before I called the subprocess.Popen that causes the crash 10:05 < nmz787_i> the subprocess call that crashes should kill a subprocess I previously opened 10:05 < nmz787_i> but I didn't read anything about a subprocess thread dying and causing a crash 10:06 < nmz787_i> subprocess says it should be fine whether the child exits normally or not 10:06 < nmz787_i> (i don't know how the 'kill other child' program works.. as they're provided by this hardware company) 10:07 < ParahSailin> oh, use cygwin python 10:08 < nmz787_i> I wonder if it has something to do with COM objects, as after the first subprocess is open, there are some COM objects opened up to interact with it... but again, I don't know if killing the COM-provider would cause python/my GUI to crash 10:08 < nmz787_i> hmm 10:08 < nmz787_i> that will likely break things, as I'm basing some paths off the interpreter location 10:10 < ParahSailin> .py import sys; from os import path; print path.basename(sys.executable) 10:10 < nmz787_i> i've been using sys.prefix 10:10 < kanzure> nmz787_i: it's an extremely bad idea to use absolute paths like that 10:10 < nmz787_i> kanzure: they're all relative 10:10 < nmz787_i> to sys.prefix 10:10 < nmz787_i> :) 10:10 < kanzure> that's not smileworthy 10:10 < kanzure> (you should feel shame) 10:11 < nmz787_i> otherwise I'd have to depend on paths being set by some env variable 10:11 < nmz787_i> some %REPOROOT% or something 10:11 < kanzure> the interpreter location really shouldn't matter 10:12 < nmz787_i> except that I use its location as a relative starting point 10:12 < kanzure> i suggest using win32com or comtypes for com object manipulation 10:12 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:12 < nmz787_i> yeah 10:12 < nmz787_i> that's what we're using 10:12 < kanzure> i prefer comtypes 10:12 < kanzure> i agree with ParahSailin re: cygwin python 10:13 < nmz787_i> i don't think i installed it when cygwin installed 10:13 < ParahSailin> you can run the setup.exe and add packages 10:14 < kanzure> setup.exe is poorly named, it's more like "our crappy tool that we expect you to run every once in a while after installing" 10:14 < kanzure> apt-cyg broke last year when they changed their repository format 10:14 < kanzure> so setup.exe is the only remaining option (other than fixing apt-cyg..) 10:15 < ParahSailin> setup.exe can be run headless if you really want 10:15 < kanzure> yes 10:15 < nmz787_i> might try getting cygwin python to work... but don't really have the time today 10:16 < nmz787_i> ttyl 10:16 * kanzure shakes his head 10:16 < ParahSailin> there is no try 10:16 < ParahSailin> you just click a box 10:17 < ParahSailin> do python-setuptools in setup.exe, having ezinstall.py already there saves you a step 10:21 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:22 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:33 < nmz787_i> nah i mean i'd need to change all my path stuff, which should be like 5 lines or less 10:35 < kanzure> ParahSailin: my theory is that your messages are being filtered out from reality for certain users 10:35 < kanzure> ParahSailin: or everyone has you on /ignore 10:35 < nmz787_i> hmm 10:36 < ParahSailin> i think its because i make one dry ironic joke, everyone thinks im not being serious 10:36 < gradstudentbot> We simply don't do enough titrations in my lab. 10:36 < nmz787_i> so one place i'm using sys.prefix is because that's where some portable python DLLs were 10:37 < nmz787_i> the microsoft ones 10:37 < nmz787_i> and i think the one for win32api 10:37 < nmz787_i> or win32com 10:37 < nmz787_i> are those usually in sys.prefix (next to python binary)? 10:37 < kanzure> import sys; from os import path; print path.basename(sys.executable) 10:38 < nmz787_i> what is the use of that? 10:38 < nmz787_i> I don't care that i'm running python.exe vs pythonw.exe or something 10:38 < kanzure> sys.path can be updated with path.basename(sys.executable) 10:38 < ParahSailin> whup i meant path.dirname 10:38 < nmz787_i> so 10:39 < nmz787_i> the reason i'm using it is because (in portable python at least) that's where some required DLLs were 10:39 < nmz787_i> for imports to work right 10:39 < ParahSailin> libpython.dll? 10:39 < nmz787_i> the msvc ones 10:40 < nmz787_i> i guess I can just copy them to the cygwin/bin dir for now 10:40 < ParahSailin> you put those in the python library path? 10:40 < nmz787_i> sys.path 10:40 < nmz787_i> or this rather os.environ['PATH'] = ";".join([os.environ['PATH'],sys.prefix]) 10:41 < ParahSailin> cygwin uses the same $PATH 10:41 < nmz787_i> then I was doing ThirdPartyLibDir = os.path.realpath(os.path.abspath(os.path.join(sys.prefix, '..','..','lib'))) 10:41 < nmz787_i> if not ThirdPartyLibDir in sys.path: 10:41 < nmz787_i> sys.path.insert(0, ThirdPartyLibDir) 10:42 < kanzure> camelcase in python :( 10:42 < nmz787_i> its a company-wide standard 10:42 < nmz787_i> or so i'm told 10:43 < kanzure> your company sucks 10:43 < nmz787_i> meh 10:43 < nmz787_i> good to have at least some standard 10:44 < nmz787_i> so people can figure out how to read each other's code 10:44 < nmz787_i> lots of langs used here 10:44 < ParahSailin> some languages dont let you name values starting with an upper case character 10:45 < ParahSailin> are those outlawed? 10:48 < kanzure> gonna be a hanging 10:49 < kanzure> TeMPOraL: hello 10:51 < ParahSailin> http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/06/words-that-men-are-most-likely-to-recognize-over-women.html 10:52 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@89-68-70-120.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:52 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:52 < kanzure> "progesterone" is a weird one to be on that list 11:09 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 11:11 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:11 < eudoxia> wow the list of women-first words makes me feel illiterate 11:12 < eudoxia> i only vaguely knew a bodice was something about clothes 11:12 < ParahSailin> who does this ";".join([os.environ['PATH'],sys.prefix]) 11:12 < ParahSailin> just noticed that 11:12 < ParahSailin> use the monoid instance of str 11:17 < kanzure> i sometimes do that when i am too lazy to type str(";").join() 11:35 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:37 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38 -!- trsohmers [4c15752c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.21.117.44] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:46 < dingo> venv_bin_path = os.path.dirname(sys.executable) 11:46 < dingo> paths_split = os.getenv('PATH', '').split(os.pathsep) 11:46 < dingo> if venv_bin_path not in paths_split: 11:46 < dingo> os.environ['PATH'] = os.pathsep.join(paths_split + [venv_bin_path]) 11:46 < dingo> thats what i do, aparently 11:50 < kanzure> trsohmers: hi 11:50 < trsohmers> Hi there 11:51 < trsohmers> So what has the progress been with homecmos related efforts? 11:51 < kanzure> azonenberg summarized some of his work here, 11:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/DIY%20fabrication%20of%20microstructures%20by%20projection%20photolithography.pdf 11:51 < kanzure> here's a laser cutter design: http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/laser_etcher 11:51 < trsohmers> Would that be the most up to date? 11:52 < kanzure> it's a good summary, i suppose 11:52 < kanzure> at the moment no amateur group have done planar transistors, i think 11:53 < kanzure> transistors are not a top priority for me (i'm eyeing microfluidics, which requires only the photolithography step, and not any of the copper etching steps etc) 11:54 < trsohmers> I've been having crazy ideas regarding micro and (in the future) nanofabrication for under a million dollars for a while now... until I saw your post on HN, I thought the HomeCMOS project that I looked at a while back was dead 11:54 < kanzure> it is "dead" in the sense that azonenberg has an unrelated job and isn't spending time on it much, but he's technically still alive 11:55 < trsohmers> For what you are interested in, what feature sizes are you working at? 11:55 < kanzure> microfabrication can be done using conventional photography equipment (35 mm film negatives) for way less than a million bucks: 11:55 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Simple%20photolithographic%20rapid%20prototyping%20of%20microfluidic%20chips.pdf 11:55 < kanzure> my tolerances are lolworthy, i'd be happy with 1-50 micron feature sizes i think 11:55 < trsohmers> I'm more interested in transistors myself 11:56 < kanzure> have you blown through the thiel money yet? 11:56 < trsohmers> I see you looked me up ;) 11:56 < kanzure> i know your name 11:57 < trsohmers> Not sure if I should be flattered or what 11:57 < kanzure> nope, i just stalk lots and lots of people 11:57 < kanzure> and a bunch of thiel fellowship people float through here 11:57 * heath visited octopart, neat little office 11:57 < heath> small team 11:57 < trsohmers> Interesting, which people 11:57 -!- ruphos_ [~ruphos@biofag.com] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 11:57 -!- ruphos [~ruphos@biofag.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:58 < heath> they didn't have an electronics hacking area as i expected 11:58 < chris_99> alas :( 11:58 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.171.157] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:58 < trsohmers> I guess this seems to be a more general transhumanism and biohacking, and not EE, so I guess I'm not super suprised 11:58 < kanzure> "general" transhumanism.. haha 11:59 < kanzure> microfabrication is too mainstream transhumanist, i guess 11:59 < trsohmers> :P 11:59 < heath> :) 11:59 < kanzure> sort of feel like the goal posts are moving on me, though 12:00 < trsohmers> Do you know Kettner Griswold or Paul Sebexen? 12:00 < kanzure> david dalrymple introduced me to paul once 12:00 < gradstudentbot> Is this going to count as my ethics training? 12:00 < kanzure> and jonathan cline introduced me to kettner 12:00 < trsohmers> Small world, haha 12:00 < kanzure> or i just stalk more than you think 12:01 < trsohmers> Either way, you seem to follow the right people, or I am just giving myself too much credit 12:01 < kanzure> gradstudentbot: yeah 12:01 < gradstudentbot> Hey, that could be your research project. 12:01 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@89-68-70-120.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:02 < kanzure> wb TeMPOraL 12:03 < kanzure> trsohmers: have they made any progress 12:03 < trsohmers> Well, as a high school dropout and self taught when it comes to most technical fields, I've had some moderately interesting but probably stupid/crazy ideas 12:03 < trsohmers> Kettner and Paul? They are working at Lawrence Berkeley National Labs, and not sleeping at all :P 12:03 < trsohmers> Don't really know specifics on progress 12:03 < kanzure> high school is for chimps anyway 12:04 < trsohmers> But from what i've heard from them (Paul mostly) it sounds like they are making progress 12:04 < kanzure> so what are your probably stupid ideas? 12:05 < trsohmers> Photolithography and metal deposition, but I'm going to read through Andrew's stuff as it probably will better inform my thought process 12:06 < gradstudentbot> That's definitely a Cell paper. 12:07 < trsohmers> Either using a microdisplay (High resolution TFT/LCD microdisplay... potentially LCOS) as a reconfigurable mask solution 12:07 < trsohmers> Without fancy optics, I think it would be possible to get around a micron, with fancy optics maybe 500nm 12:09 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:09 < trsohmers> I've also been reading about "Light Grating Valve" technology, which I think may have some promise, but I'm not sure if it would be any better than DLP 12:09 < kanzure> micromirror arrays and liquid crystal displays are commonly available and worth sticking with 12:10 < kanzure> here are some methods you may be interested in: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/ 12:10 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@unaffiliated/mosasaur] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 12:10 < trsohmers> In another life I worked on head mounted displays, and have a lot of microdisplays lying around 12:11 < kanzure> i still like this thing http://www.loper-os.org/vintage/paralleleye/eye.html 12:11 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:12 < trsohmers> I've read about ZPAL and a lot of the MIT stuff before... I may be misreading things, but did the zone plated lens stop being called that, and is now commonly just referred to as a "superlens" in more recent works? 12:12 < trsohmers> wait wait 12:13 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.137.75] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:14 < trsohmers> If you're interested in HMDs, then this entire video is interesting, but if not, skip ahead to the ~8 minute mark 12:14 < trsohmers> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLzESOf8SE&feature=youtu.be 12:14 < kanzure> .title 12:14 < yoleaux> Douglas Lanman (NVidia) - Light Field Displays at AWE2014 12:14 < kanzure> you can use &t=8m to skip to 8 minutes 12:15 < trsohmers> I know, I just copied and paste it from a previous chat I had. Too lazy to add 6 characters 12:16 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:17 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:17 < kanzure> there was someone that was just pointing a projector at SU-8 or something, 12:17 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1VupG7pOcQ&t=48s 12:17 < yoleaux> LightBuilders 12:19 < nmz787_i> ParahSailin: cygwin doesn't seem to respect .pth files? 12:21 < trsohmers> So my thought with Douglas Lanman's "arbitrary high resolution display" is if you could make a relatively cheap display with an absurdly high pixel density, and have it be able to block UV light 12:22 < kanzure> i think you mean reflect UV 12:22 < ParahSailin> i dunno what .pth file is 12:22 < kanzure> s/reflect/pass 12:22 < kanzure> transmit 12:22 < kanzure> there's a good word 12:22 < trsohmers> Yes 12:25 < trsohmers> Meaning not allowing the UV to expose photoresist below the display 12:27 < nmz787_i> don't forget about inter-pixel dead space, so you'll want more than a few pixels for whatever your minimum feature size is targeted to be 12:30 < trsohmers> I can't seem to find much information on how he is making that "display", but I'm wondering what the limit would be 12:31 < nmz787_i> ParahSailin: .pth files in the site-packages folder usually are looked into and the dirs listed in the text are added to the module search tree/list 12:31 < trsohmers> or if there is a size limit for TFTs... if you just make a single ridiculously high pixel density TFT, then you could use that as a reconfigurable mask 12:31 < kanzure> the projector is the reconfigurable mask 12:32 < ParahSailin> im not sure whether the python in cygwin uses .pth files 12:32 < ParahSailin> if they are present, it probably does though 12:32 < kanzure> .pth is part of python's weirdo broken package management stuff 12:32 < nmz787_i> ParahSailin: actually I realized I put the modules in a dir one level up from site-packages 12:32 < trsohmers> What I'm saying is have a light reflector/blocker for each "pixel" of whatever you are exposing 12:33 < nmz787_i> trsohmers: but you have inter-pixel dead space 12:33 < nmz787_i> trsohmers: also diffraction 12:33 < kanzure> that lcd paper showed a method of working around the dead space 12:34 < trsohmers> So you wouldn't be able to have feature sizes less than the wavelength of the light (correct?) 12:34 < nmz787_i> you might get interested in digital hologram/interference mask generation 12:34 < nmz787_i> trsohmers: yes but diffraction can also smear edges and stuff 12:34 < trsohmers> Couldn't you do something similar to superresolution techniques on displays? 12:34 < nmz787_i> so if you had a 1 micron pixel, the edges might get smeared and it ends up a bit wider, say 1.5 microns 12:34 < trsohmers> have multiple short exposures 12:35 < ThomasEgi> what's this about? lithography? 12:35 < nmz787_i> diffraction is like a lottery that all photons go through 12:35 < nmz787_i> so i think multiple short bursts would be the same as one long one 12:36 < trsohmers> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superresolution 12:36 < kanzure> .wik superresolution 12:36 < yoleaux> "Superresolution (SR) is a class of techniques that enhance the resolution of an imaging system. In some SR techniques—termed optical SR—the diffraction limit of systems is transcended, while in others—geometrical SR—the resolution of digital imaging sensors is enhanced." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superresolution 12:36 < trsohmers> I was thinking you could either move the target or the "mask" slightly 12:37 < kanzure> yep 12:37 < kanzure> here's someone who did that, 12:37 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Development%20of%20microfabrication%20technology%20with%20maskless%20photolithography%20device%20using%20LCD%20projector%20-%20Itoga%20-%202010.pdf 12:38 -!- Miriam [~Miriam@99.236.10.22] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:38 < trsohmers> But even if some of the resist you don't want exposed is exposed, hopefully it wasn't exposed long enough/with enough intensity 12:38 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ 12:38 < trsohmers> oh cool 12:40 < trsohmers> OK, so that is 1428 PPI 12:42 < nmz787_i> trsohmers: that's exactly why i said to have more pixels per feature size 12:42 < nmz787_i> so you can move the mask but in software 12:42 < trsohmers> supposedly the highest resolution one (at least marketed) is .61 inches, 2560x2048 12:43 < trsohmers> so 5374 PPI 12:43 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v11/n5/full/nmeth.2918.html 12:43 <@kanzure> .title 12:43 < yoleaux> Large-scale de novo DNA synthesis: technologies and applications 12:43 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2918 12:43 <@kanzure> http://www.gen9bio.com/blog/gen9-featured-in-nature-methods-review/ 12:44 <@kanzure> haha $0.10/bp... the world is so fucked up. that's still very expensive. 12:46 < nmz787_i> large-scale is not a good keyword 12:47 <@kanzure> yeah we're going to have to name our technique eventually 12:47 <@kanzure> hypersynthesis 12:47 < trsohmers> nmz787_i: Did you look at the multi exposure section of the paper kanzure sent at 12:38? 12:48 < nmz787_i> no 12:49 < jrayhawk_> https://www.modularscience.com/doc an interesting start 12:51 < nmz787_i> hah, that paper used resist from the company up the street 12:55 < nmz787_i> it doesn't really mention how they moved the image, if it was by overrepresenting pixels/CD (critical dimension, aka smallest feature desired) or if it was this fancy 50nm stage http://www.spectracore.com/KY1250CL.html 12:55 < nmz787_i> p.s. kanzure tool request on that one! 12:56 < nmz787_i> "PLEASE CALL OR E-MAIL FOR PRICE " means i don't get it tho 12:56 <@kanzure> .title 12:56 < yoleaux> KY1250C-L Motorized Crossed Roller XY Axis 120x120mm Platform 50mm Travel Stage 12:57 <@kanzure> i thought we were just going to build one 12:57 -!- Miriam [~Miriam@99.236.10.22] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 13:07 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:14 -!- yorick_ [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:16 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:17 -!- yorick_ is now known as yorick 13:30 -!- ||0_-_0|| [uid34064@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-enzxenkaeduzweuw] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:30 < ||0_-_0||> paperbot http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168365914003393?np=y 13:30 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/State-of-the-art%20in%20design%20rules%20for%20drug%20delivery%20platforms%3A%20Lessons%20learned%20from%20FDA-approved%20nanomedicines.pdf 13:41 <@kanzure> http://multigrad.blogspot.com/2014/06/fun-with-python-bytecode.html 13:42 < gradstudentbot> I think I have ebola. 13:43 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-91-168.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:44 -!- pettre [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:50 -!- GabrielRuizLA [~Gabriel@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:52 -!- RuizGabriel [~Gabriel@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:35 -!- AshleyWaffle_ [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:36 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:40 -!- AshleyWaffle_ is now known as AshleyWaffle 14:55 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk_: any adventure shooting ranges around? like scenario based? I found this VR one http://threatdynamics.com/simulator-shooting/ 15:00 <@kanzure> that is a good site name 15:00 <@kanzure> i think most people just do paintballing instead of shooting at screens 15:02 < chris_99> or airsoft too 15:07 < jrayhawk_> Huh, I don't know anything about the subject. 15:08 <@kanzure> no combat training? whaaat 15:08 <@kanzure> you'd be an okay sniper 15:30 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:31 -!- d3vz3r0 [~d3vz3r0@jsr.6502.ws] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:32 < jrayhawk_> nmz787_i: http://www.razorsixtactical.com/ their website has sold me 15:32 <@kanzure> .title 15:32 < yoleaux> RazorSix Tactical 15:32 <@kanzure> jerks 15:33 < jrayhawk_> Don't tread on me, bro. 15:35 <@kanzure> https://www.google.com/maps/place/30%C2%B037'35.5%22N+122%C2%B003'53.9%22E/@30.6189461,122.0619333,6371m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0 15:37 < nmz787_i> look's like my team might go to the VR one for a team-building exercise 15:39 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangshan_Port 15:40 <@kanzure> hm, only 44% owned by government 15:41 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_International_Port_(Group) 15:42 <@kanzure> http://www.portshanghai.com.cn/en/ 15:42 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 15:56 <@kanzure> any guesses as to what's going on here? https://www.google.com/maps/@25.0306852,55.0674356,467m/data=!3m1!1e3 16:01 -!- sheena1 [~home@S0106c8fb2685eb55.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:02 < jrayhawk_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNG_carrier 16:02 < jrayhawk_> probably just a static structure around it for stabilizing purposes 16:02 < jrayhawk_> refueling while moving is fraught with danger 16:05 <@kanzure> "The Methane Pioneer" "Methane Princess" "Methane Progress" 16:05 <@kanzure> "methane princess" is such a troll name 16:06 <@kanzure> "n the early 1970s, the US Government encouraged US shipyards to build LNG carriers, and a total of 16 LNG ships were built." 16:06 <@kanzure> yes.. encouraged. 16:10 < jrayhawk_> http://www.google.com/search?q=engineering+connections+supertanker&tbm=vid 16:11 < trsohmers> Anyone here knowledgable or at least interested in metal deposition techniques? 16:11 < jrayhawk_> Richard Hammond is like the only real science show host we've had since Bill Nye 16:12 < trsohmers> kanzure: ? 16:12 <@kanzure> there's a few, i am thinking 16:13 < jrayhawk_> #reprap probably knows more 16:13 < trsohmers> micro and nanoscale 16:13 <@kanzure> juri_ was building a vapor deposition chamber of some kind 16:14 <@kanzure> juri_: are you still among the living 16:15 <@kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzX_wFm4OH4#t=3757 16:15 < yoleaux> Falcon 9 Satellite Launch 16:16 < juri_> indeed. 16:16 < juri_> my hands have somewhat recovered, as well. 16:17 < juri_> too bad my soldering station just died. :( 16:17 < trsohmers> hi juri_ 16:17 < trsohmers> what is your interest in vapor deposition? 16:18 < juri_> hio! i'm trying to deposit carbon in the form of DLC to coat 3d printer hotends. 16:21 -!- trsohmers_ [4c15752c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.21.117.44] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:21 < juri_> hio! i'm trying to deposit carbon in the form of DLC to coat 3d printer hotends. 16:21 < trsohmers_> Hey juri_ , sorry my computer froze 16:21 < trsohmers_> Did you say anything between me asking you that question and me rejoining? 16:21 -!- trsohmers [4c15752c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.21.117.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:21 < juri_> ^^ :) 16:22 < jrayhawk_> http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-06-20.log also 16:22 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure 16:22 < trsohmers_> The magic of IRC 16:23 < trsohmers_> So, I apologize if this elementary idea sounds really stupid, but I can't think of any obvious flaws (which probably means I just don't understand the physics) 16:25 < trsohmers_> But I've had the idea of using the photoelectric effect (shooting a metal with a photon of a certain energy, which then creates an electron hole where the photon in absorbed) in order to selectively deposit metal using the same equipment you would use for photolithography 16:25 < juri_> i'm trying microwaves. 16:25 < trsohmers_> ? 16:26 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@89-68-70-120.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:26 < trsohmers_> I guess I should have mentioned that I am wanting to do this for micro/nano fabrication, with the intention of making transistors 16:30 < juri_> i just need a nice electrical resist, that is a good thermal conductor. 16:30 < kanzure> you could just etch a metal plate with a laser diode 16:30 < kanzure> if you need multiple layers then alignment will get annoying 16:33 < trsohmers_> juri_: I'm not a materials guy, but I know one of the people that was involved in this, and he claims that this is the best electrical insulator/thermal conductor 16:33 < trsohmers_> http://www.jameskalmankearns.com/uploads/1/1/0/5/11055322/diamond_and_diamond-like_carbon_from_a_preceramic.pdf 16:33 < trsohmers_> kanzure: Was that in response to me? 16:36 < ParahSailin> the bandgap in metals doesnt work the same way as in semiconductors 16:37 < trsohmers_> ParahSailin: In terms of how much energy required to have an electron jump? 16:39 < ParahSailin> in metals, every nucleus is a hole 16:41 < trsohmers_> So to my understanding, every metal has a work function for the photoelectric effect 16:43 < trsohmers_> a photon has to have a certain minimum energy to be absorbed, and when that happens, an electrons are ejected 16:45 < ParahSailin> yes, the bandgap energy is so low that basically if its room temperature every electron is excited 16:46 < trsohmers_> for semiconductors... and for other metals, it is significantly higher, and thus requires higher energy for it to occur 16:48 < trsohmers_> (correct?) 16:49 < ParahSailin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_band_structure#mediaviewer/File:Band_filling_diagram.svg 16:49 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:57 < trsohmers_> OK, so I found a simulation online which I think shows the concept well 16:57 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00 < trsohmers_> For example, gold's workfunction is 5.1eV, so you would need to be hitting it with photons with a wavelength of 243nm or less 17:00 -!- efm [~efm@vpn.tummy.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:07 < trsohmers_> Anyways, my idea is this if you were to bombard a negatively charged silicon wafer with any photons with a wavelength of less than 1 micron, then any area hit by those photons would form an electron hole, and it would lose its charge 17:08 < seba--> trsohmers_ what do you want to make 17:08 < trsohmers_> You would then sputter a negatively charged metal across the surface of the wafer, and (I think) any area that is not charged would allow the metal to deposit on it, while everything that is not exposed to the light would repel the metal 17:09 < trsohmers_> seba--: I'm interested in micro/nano fab... primarily for integrated circuits. 17:09 < seba--> yes 17:09 < seba--> but what is with this electrons and everything 17:09 < trsohmers_> The photoelectric effect 17:10 < seba--> yes i know 17:10 < seba--> but what do you want to make with it 17:10 < trsohmers_> Hit a metal with a high enough energy photon, and that metal releases an electron/forms an electron hole 17:10 < seba--> ok but? 17:10 < trsohmers_> My end goal is I want to make my own ICs 17:11 < seba--> yes but i don't see what's with the electron 17:11 < seba--> what's your point 17:11 < trsohmers_> To do that, I'm interested in DIY nanofab, and I have not found any good ways for metal deposition 17:11 < seba--> why don't you make it like they make PCBs, with removing metal? 17:12 < trsohmers_> Because that would take a lot of time and effort 17:12 < seba--> why 17:12 < trsohmers_> You can do that with a focused ion beam 17:13 < trsohmers_> and do milling 17:13 < seba--> i don't see how 17:13 < trsohmers_> ? 17:13 < trsohmers_> Dont see how for what? 17:13 < seba--> with photons/photoelectric effect 17:14 < trsohmers_> The areas of the silicon wafer you do not want to have metal on would be negatively charged, and the metal you are sputtering would be negatively charged 17:14 < seba--> why do you think charge would be localized? 17:14 < seba--> lol 17:20 < chris_99> has anyone here made their own electroporation machine? 17:24 < trsohmers_> seba--: From what I have read, it seems that the electrons escape at the surface of the material 17:24 < seba--> trsohmers_, yes 17:24 < seba--> trsohmers_, that basically makes the material positively charged 17:25 < trsohmers_> My point is that if you are running an electric charge through the material and giving it a negative charge 17:25 < seba--> but you are now treating as you have there the lack of charge localized 17:25 < seba--> chris_99, what's that 17:25 < trsohmers_> This is what I was thinking of 17:25 < trsohmers_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_printer#Charging 17:26 < chris_99> seba--, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroporation 17:26 < seba--> trsohmers_, yes but this just charges the whole thing, not tiny pixels 17:27 < seba--> chris_99, oh thank you, i was searching the name of that device for some time now!! :*** 17:27 < trsohmers_> And then the laser hits the areas where the toner will be, and that cancels the charge for that pixel 17:27 < chris_99> seba--, heh :) 17:28 < trsohmers_> now why wouldn't the same principle apply to a metal? 17:29 < seba--> trsohmers_, hm, i always thought they work differently (the laser printers), interesting, well i can't see how you can charge a metal at a single point 17:29 < seba--> trsohmers_, because they are conductive 17:29 < trsohmers_> if it has a charge going through it 17:29 < trsohmers_> and you cancel that charge 17:30 < trsohmers_> it would take some amount of time for an electron to move to the electron hole 17:30 < gradstudentbot> The results of my study indicate that the climate is about to get really weird. 17:30 < trsohmers_> If you are continuously bombarding the point where you don't want a charge 17:31 < seba--> trsohmers_, how much time are we talking here? 17:32 < trsohmers_> I don't know :P 17:32 < trsohmers_> Damnit Jim, I'm a wannabe electrical engineer, not a physicist/chemist! 17:33 < seba--> i'm a chem student, but this is more physics domain, so i'm not totally sure 17:33 < trsohmers_> (that was a Star Trek TOS reference, sorry) :P 17:33 < seba--> chris_99, that doesn't seem so hard 17:34 < trsohmers_> kanzure: Do you know anyone who may be able to find a flaw in my theory? 17:34 < gene_hacker> ok so you want to do selective metal deposition using light? 17:34 < trsohmers_> gene_hacker: Indeed 17:34 < chris_99> seba--, yeah, i found a schematic a while ago, but don't know where it is anymore, but i'm curious if anyones actually built one 17:34 < gene_hacker> you can do it thermally 17:34 < trsohmers_> How so? 17:35 < seba--> chris_99, seems more like adjustable voltage and adjustable pulse duration+frequency? 17:35 < chris_99> it's high voltage though 17:35 < gene_hacker> you get yourself a laser, and some gas precursor(which is probably pretty nasty) 17:36 < seba--> chris_99, how much? 17:36 < chris_99> i thought it was around 2kV iirc 17:36 < gene_hacker> shine laser at a spot, heat causes precursor to decompose, and you get selective deposition 17:37 < seba--> chris_99, ok that's not such a problem 17:37 < gene_hacker> here's an example of a boron spring made with a process like it: http://www2.teknik.uu.se/mst/projview.php?proj=49 17:37 < trsohmers_> similar to ion beam induced deposition 17:37 < trsohmers_> but with heat 17:37 < gene_hacker> it's called Laser-assisted chemical-vapor deposition 17:37 < trsohmers_> But it would be just as slow (if not slower?) than FIB deposition 17:38 < gene_hacker> nope, same thing just with light 17:38 < trsohmers_> What I'm wondering is if it can be done with a mask 17:38 < seba--> trsohmers_, what if you just make nuclear fusion on surface 17:38 < trsohmers_> so you are exposing the entire area where you want metal deposited on 17:38 < chris_99> http://etd.uwaterloo.ca/etd/j2grenie2006.pdf 17:38 < trsohmers_> seba--: ;) I hope I don't sound that crazy :P 17:39 < chris_99> "Design of a MOSFET - Based Pulsed Power Supply for Electroporation " 17:39 < gradstudentbot> My experiment was working a second ago, but now it doesn't even work. 17:39 < trsohmers_> I haven't even tild you guys about my 200 different perfect designs for a cold fusion reactor! /s 17:40 < gene_hacker> you could probably do the same thing with a really intense burst of light 17:40 < trsohmers_> But what would be the resolution of that? 17:40 < gene_hacker> and it should be slow, CVD has bad kinetics 17:40 < gene_hacker> no clue 17:41 < seba--> chris_99, you can make it out of a boost converter + voltage doublers 17:41 < seba--> chris_99, you can make 1 kV with boost converters very easily in discontinous mode and then voltage doubler 17:41 < seba--> chris_99, assuming you need low current 17:41 < chris_99> i'm not sure what current it is atm 17:42 < chris_99> that thesis looks good though 17:42 < chris_99> so i'll read that 17:42 < seba--> gene_hacker, make carbon carbon nuclear fusion, you should get magnesium 17:42 < seba--> a metal! 17:43 < seba--> so basically just get plastic and then shoot carbon ions at it at super high speed 17:43 < seba--> colide it 17:43 < seba--> and at that micropoint 17:43 < seba--> you should get magnesium 17:43 < gene_hacker> I think we should get hydrogen-hydrogen working first before we attempt that 17:43 < seba--> uh 17:43 < seba--> trsohmers_ ^ 17:43 < seba--> gene_hacker, it's working 17:43 < trsohmers_> gene_hacker: hmm... at least in my mind, it seems that the resolution limit for the heat deposition technique would be at best the wavelength of the light you use, but would be pretty fuzzy due to uneven solidifying of the metal 17:43 < seba--> nuclear fusion is achievable 17:43 < seba--> without problems 17:43 < seba--> the problem is getting net power 17:44 < trsohmers_> I know there are fusors 17:44 < seba--> see 17:44 < trsohmers_> I know multiple people who have built them 17:44 < seba--> see 17:44 < seba--> anyway 17:44 < seba--> make that 17:44 < seba--> carbon to magnesium 17:44 < gene_hacker> it is, the energy barriers are just high and it seems to me that it would be crazy to dump that much energy in to do deposition 17:44 < seba--> be a man 17:44 < gene_hacker> plus all that heat generated can't be good 17:44 < trsohmers_> exactly 17:44 < seba--> :( 17:44 < trsohmers_> so using UV, which you are already using for lithography 17:45 < gene_hacker> yeah, you'd probably vaporize your plastic 17:45 < trsohmers_> ? 17:45 < gene_hacker> ever put something plastic in an SEM? 17:45 < trsohmers_> Nope 17:45 < trsohmers_> But why would there be plastic? 17:46 -!- trsohmers_ is now known as trsohmers 17:46 < seba--> i don't get 17:46 < seba--> what's wrong with photolitography 17:47 < seba--> lol 17:47 < seba--> works well 17:47 < seba--> proven technology 17:47 < trsohmers> Whose saying anything bad about photolithography? 17:47 < seba--> you 17:47 < trsohmers> I haven't said that 17:47 < seba--> you said that it's too complicated and messy 17:48 < trsohmers> No, I said that the thermal/ion beam metal deposition would be 17:48 < seba--> then just do photolitography 17:48 < seba--> case solved! 17:49 -!- joepie91_ is now known as CogAnon 17:49 < trsohmers> this is for metal deposition 17:49 < trsohmers> not lithography 17:49 -!- CogAnon is now known as joepie91_ 17:49 < gene_hacker> @trsohmers just responding to seba 17:49 < gene_hacker> why do you want to deposit metal? 17:49 < trsohmers> CMOS process for integrated circuits 17:49 < trsohmers> 10+ layers 17:50 -!- nmz787_i1 [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-alerzkauiwdkjpwm] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:50 -!- nmz787_i1 [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-alerzkauiwdkjpwm] has quit [Client Quit] 17:50 < seba--> make it in one layer 17:50 < seba--> or two 17:50 < seba--> you don't need 10 layers 17:50 < trsohmers> ...you can't 17:50 < seba--> why 17:51 < trsohmers> the amount of wires 17:52 < seba--> sure, but for starters you could do it larger and in 1 layer 17:52 < trsohmers> I suppose, but that limits you in other ways 17:53 < seba--> like which 17:53 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.137.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53 < trsohmers> On chip communication... if everything is further apart, you have signal integrity and speed issues 17:54 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:54 < kanzure> you don't need "DIY nanofab" to do integrated circuits 17:54 < chris_99> has anyone fabbed an IC at home before? 17:54 < seba--> kanzure what then! 17:55 < seba--> trsohmers, yes but for starters you can try something easier 17:55 < gene_hacker> and if you can deposit metal in arbitrary shapes, well there's much more fun stuff you can do! 17:55 < trsohmers> Doing easy is fine (and the right thing to do) to start off with, but I'm trying to think of a solution for further down the line 17:56 < gene_hacker> IE you could rapid prototype MEMS 17:56 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:56 < trsohmers> I'm a bigger fan of custom processors than MEMs :/ 17:57 < trsohmers> (Although I love MEMS, I'm not smart enough to do cool things with them) 17:57 < kanzure> what do you mean "further down the line".. 17:57 < gene_hacker> if you can get it to work, well you'd make money 17:58 < gene_hacker> especially if you could do high aspect ratio 17:58 < gene_hacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGA 17:58 < gene_hacker> LIGA is fucking insane! 17:58 -!- ||0_-_0|| [uid34064@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-enzxenkaeduzweuw] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:58 < trsohmers> I'm currently raising money for my startup, which is making a new processor architecture focusing on energy efficency for the high performance computing industry 17:58 < gene_hacker> then use somebody else's fab 17:58 < trsohmers> But as I've been waiting to hear back on grants, and in the shitty fundraising process, I've gotten more and more interested in fabrication 17:59 < trsohmers> gene_hacker: That's the easy solution, and what I am planning to do as the company 18:00 < trsohmers> But as the company has no money and I'm basically sitting on my ass waiting for money, I decided to learn about nanofab... and I thought of some ideas (like the metal deposition technique) 18:00 < seba--> you have a company 18:00 < seba--> which does nothing? 18:00 < kanzure> anyone can make a company 18:00 < kanzure> for like $200 18:00 < trsohmers> $300* 18:00 < trsohmers> plus $99 a year, damn delaware 18:00 < seba--> how much do you pay per month for having a company? 18:00 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01 < trsohmers> seba--: Why does that matter? 18:01 < seba--> i'm interested 18:01 < trsohmers> I mean, I don't pay anything per month, unless you distribute the yearly costs 18:01 < gene_hacker> well if you have a simulation of your processor, you could probably attract investors 18:02 < trsohmers> That's what I've been doing, and we've had some nibbles 18:02 < seba--> oh cool, you don't have any taxes/contributions or whatever 18:02 < seba--> hm 18:02 < chris_99> what have you prototyped it on? 18:02 < trsohmers> we have a core simulation on an FPGA 18:02 < trsohmers> a FPGA* 18:03 < trsohmers> and an almost complete instruction set emulator 18:03 < trsohmers> Since it is a team of 3 people (and I'm the only one full time), it's difficult to get major progress done unless we have capital 18:06 < trsohmers> Basically, the reason I'm interested in this (micro/nanofab) is because I see it potentially being a major gamechanger in the future if you can do small scale production "at home" 18:06 < trsohmers> and by at home, I mean less than $1 million 18:06 < kanzure> small scale production at home does not require nanometer-scale features 18:07 < trsohmers> If you want to have a production quality chip, it does 18:07 < trsohmers> But that's not my goal right now (or even in the next 1 to 2 years) 18:07 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:07 < trsohmers> But as a currently fabless semiconductor company, the only way I think you can take down Intel (which I equate to The Evil Empire) is to do fabrication yourself 18:08 < trsohmers> It's not a cheap or easy thing, but it is something I would love the opportunity to tackle sometime in the future 18:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-178-117.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:08 < kanzure> "production quality chips" began at 200 micron feature sizes 18:09 < kanzure> the 4004 actually worked, you know 18:09 < gene_hacker> but you can have someone else make your chips in a fab 18:09 < trsohmers> gene_hacker: Yes, and that is the plan 18:09 < gene_hacker> we can't even do that with regular products yet! 18:09 < kanzure> intel is far from the only game in town for fabrication 18:09 < trsohmers> I'm only looking at nanofab for my own personal interest at the moment 18:09 < kanzure> you can get lots of asics and other stuff fabbed by all the other fabrication shops before you have to think about intel 18:09 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:09 < kanzure> if 10 micron transistors aren't useful, how does that explain the ~decade of chips that worked at that scale 18:10 < trsohmers> I know, I've already talked to Global Foundries and TSMC, plus a number of smaller folks 18:10 < seba--> trsohmers, why don't you just use a stream of copper ions 18:11 < trsohmers> kanzure: If we're trying to prove that we are 10x more power efficient for the same performance, then we have to do it at a similar process to be comparable 18:11 < seba--> when it would strike the target it would deposit! 18:11 < kanzure> have you investigated microfluidic cooling of integrated circuits 18:11 < trsohmers> seba--: There already is ion beam induced/assisted deposition 18:11 < kanzure> and if so, what did you determine 18:11 < seba--> trsohmers, so what's wrong with that 18:11 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@89-68-70-120.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:11 < trsohmers> kanzure: I think that it has real potential 18:12 < gene_hacker> except if you're doing multiphase microchannel flow 18:12 < trsohmers> seba--: A FIB is $~600k used 18:12 < gene_hacker> that's a boondoggle, hopefully we'll get it some day 18:12 < trsohmers> and that's a shitty one 18:12 < seba--> trsohmers, what's fib 18:12 < trsohmers> Focused Ion Beam 18:12 < seba--> trsohmers, why don't you make it for less 18:13 < seba--> trsohmers, it's basically a cathode ray tube working in reverse 18:13 < seba--> lol 18:13 < trsohmers> seba--: It's a possibility, same as making an electron beam/SEM... but a lot of moving parts 18:13 < trsohmers> exactly 18:13 < kanzure> yeah iirc it doesn't cost $600k to build a focused ion beam miller thing 18:13 < trsohmers> controlling the beam is a pain in the ass 18:13 < seba--> why 18:13 < kanzure> because he doesn't know about the open source controller 18:14 < trsohmers> ? 18:14 < kanzure> electrowhatsit.. hrm where did it go 18:14 < trsohmers> But not just the controller 18:14 < gene_hacker> it's also a bunch of precision machined high vacuum stuff 18:14 < gene_hacker> right? 18:14 < trsohmers> actually focusing the beam down to a worthwhile (for integrated circuits... less then a micon) feature sizes 18:14 < seba--> that's nothing trsohmers can't do 18:15 < trsohmers> I'm not all that smart. I don't want moving parts :P 18:15 < seba--> moving parts lol 18:15 < seba--> wtf 18:15 < seba--> just electric and magnetic fields 18:15 < trsohmers> I don't mean physically moving 18:16 < trsohmers> difficult to control, at least I think/thought they were 18:16 < trsohmers> I'm a processor architect/IC designer with no real experience in that or anything else, what do I know? 18:17 < seba--> what about open source nuclear bombs using thorium 18:17 < seba--> that would be cool 18:17 < trsohmers> That's why I thought of the photoelectric metal deposition, as it's a pretty stupid principle, that I thought would have an obvious flaw, but I still can't find it. 18:17 < trsohmers> ... 18:17 < seba--> why nobody started such project yet 18:17 < seba--> there are 3D printed guns 18:18 < gene_hacker> metal in vapor phase isn't attracted by electric fields? 18:18 < trsohmers> It may be a bit of hubris/naivety, but I'm hoping that my stupid deposition idea may be so simple and dumb that no one has tried it, but it may actually just work 18:18 < seba--> maybe 18:18 < seba--> you can also charge metals 18:18 < seba--> by x-rays 18:18 < trsohmers> you can 18:18 < trsohmers> an x ray is a photon 18:18 < seba--> yes 18:19 < seba--> but it works differently 18:19 < trsohmers> but the highest energy photon you would need (by my calculation) would be ~190nm 18:19 < trsohmers> or like 6.something eV 18:19 < trsohmers> (I have it written down somewhere) 18:19 < seba--> hm 18:20 < trsohmers> and that was for platinum 18:20 < trsohmers> which you would never need anything that high 18:20 < trsohmers> so something like 230nm would be fine 18:20 < trsohmers> But regardless 18:20 < trsohmers> an ArF excimer laser would work fine 18:20 < trsohmers> Do even better than required 18:21 < seba--> i think i'm going to be plumber, that seems easy 18:21 < trsohmers> an electron plumber? 18:21 < seba--> no, a normal water one 18:22 < gradstudentbot> I hope they kick me out. 18:22 < trsohmers> Be at least a photon plumber 18:22 < trsohmers> Oh oh I know a joke~ 18:22 < trsohmers> seba--: How do you tell the difference between a chemist and a plumber? 18:23 < seba--> hm 18:23 < trsohmers> any guesses? 18:23 < ParahSailin> i dont get it 18:23 < trsohmers> How they pronounce unionized. 18:23 < trsohmers> budum tissssssss 18:25 < gene_hacker> well trsohmers, you should first do some math to figure out if what your are doing is feasible 18:25 < seba--> maybe i'll change oil to cars 18:25 < seba--> that's also easy! 18:26 < trsohmers> gene_hacker: Well, I think I have done it for the energy required for the light, as long as it is ~200nm (or lower) wavelength 18:26 < gene_hacker> but what about the deposition of the metal part? 18:27 < gene_hacker> can you show that the metal is attracted to the charged parts over the uncharged parts enough to get a difference in deposition? 18:28 < trsohmers> That I don't even know where to begin 18:28 < trsohmers> (I had an 8th grade introductory chemistry course) 18:28 < gene_hacker> first see if someone has done something similiar 18:29 < trsohmers> I've been looking for a week and a half, and have not found anything 18:29 < gene_hacker> someone may not have done metal deposition for the purpose of chip making, but there might be weird applications that might need such things 18:30 < trsohmers> Tried every combination of "micro nano metal deposition magnetic static electron photon light photoelectric" 18:30 < trsohmers> and some others 18:30 < gene_hacker> it may not necessarily have deposition 18:30 < trsohmers> Typically if I've had an idea, it's something I have found within 5 to 20 minutes of easy googling, and it was most likely done before I was born 18:32 < trsohmers> Would there be any decent software that I would be able to set up a simulation with? 18:32 < gene_hacker> I would say you don't need to do simulation yet 18:32 < gene_hacker> just napkin calculations 18:32 < trsohmers> So assuming I can not find anything online 18:33 < gene_hacker> get down to the physics 18:34 < trsohmers> So to my understanding (which is very incomplete), the actual attraction is due to there being an electron hole (a positive charge) with one atom, and then an extra electron with the other atom (a negative charge) 18:34 < trsohmers> correct? 18:34 < gene_hacker> I think so 18:35 < trsohmers> Anyone else in this chat want to jump in? 18:35 < gene_hacker> so you might want to start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_deposition 18:35 < trsohmers> Anyways: The photoelectric effect is if a photon with enough energy hits a metal, it causes an electron to jump, thus giving it a positive charge 18:36 < seba--> yes 18:36 < seba--> but jump where? 18:36 < gene_hacker> that doesn't matter 18:37 < seba--> of course it does 18:37 < trsohmers> seba--: We don't care about the whole material changing its charge 18:37 < seba--> if it lands 10 nm away 18:37 < seba--> it doesn't matter 18:37 < seba--> lol 18:37 < trsohmers> only single (adjacent) atoms 18:37 < gene_hacker> what one should first demonstrate is that metal vapor experiences a difference in deposition rate on charged and uncharged surfaces 18:37 < gradstudentbot> Did you see that hack? 18:38 < trsohmers> and if you are shooting all of the ones you want to be positively charged, then the electrons would not jump to atoms that are also under work 18:38 < trsohmers> gradstudentbot: ? 18:38 < gradstudentbot> You know they keep the mice in better conditions than us. 18:38 < trsohmers> wait, is he/it really a bot? 18:38 < gene_hacker> yes 18:38 < trsohmers> heh 18:38 < trsohmers> I guess I failed the turing test 18:39 < kanzure> gradstudentbot: let's write a paper about that 18:39 < gradstudentbot> Am I going to be first author? 18:39 < kanzure> the bot has more game than most of us 18:39 < trsohmers> haha 18:39 < trsohmers> gene_hacker: why would metal vapor matter? 18:39 < gene_hacker> gradstudentbot: how's research 18:39 < gradstudentbot> No, you definitely have a right to your own opinion. I just.. wish you wouldn't voice it. 18:39 < gene_hacker> that's what you are using correct? 18:40 < trsohmers> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputtering 18:40 < trsohmers> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputter_deposition 18:40 < trsohmers> .title 18:40 < yoleaux> trsohmers: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. 18:40 < trsohmers> kanzure: what is that magic you do 18:41 < trsohmers> .wik sputter deposition 18:41 < yoleaux> "Sputter deposition is a physical vapor deposition (PVD) method of thin film deposition by sputtering. This involves ejecting material from a "target" that is a source onto a "substrate" such as a silicon wafer. Resputtering is re-emission of the deposited material during the deposition process by ion or atom bombardment." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputter_deposition 18:41 < gene_hacker> I doubt it then 18:41 < trsohmers> There we go 18:41 < trsohmers> gene_hacker: You doubt what then? 18:42 < gene_hacker> it doubt it will work 18:42 < trsohmers> why? 18:42 < gene_hacker> you know your particle energy right? 18:42 < gene_hacker> it's tens of eV right? 18:42 < trsohmers> It doesn't have to be 18:44 < gene_hacker> so in order for deposition to happen a particle must lose some of it's kinetic energy to a surface 18:44 < trsohmers> So I guess you wouldn't exactly use sputtering 18:45 < gene_hacker> does an electric charge assist in that process enough to be non-neglible? 18:45 < gene_hacker> in short, you can probably make a simple model of your process using basic physics 18:45 < trsohmers> But would that apply on the nanoscale? 18:46 < trsohmers> (I really have no idea) 18:46 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:46 < trsohmers> I may also be overestimating simulation software, but I would hope as a nonscientist that there would be simulation software where you could have a simulation like this 18:47 < gene_hacker> yes 18:48 < gene_hacker> you will probably need some fudge factor, which you can probably find in some literal on vapor deposition 18:48 < gene_hacker> otherwise you'll have to do molecular dynamics which is hard 18:49 < kanzure> paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2014/ta/c3ta14388k 18:49 < kanzure> .title 18:49 < yoleaux> Patterned liquid permeation through the TiO2 nanotube array coated Ti mesh by photoelectric cooperation for liquid printing 18:49 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Patterned%20liquid%20permeation%20through%20the%20TiO2%20nanotube%20array%20coated%20Ti%20mesh%20by%20photoelectric%20cooperation%20for%20liquid%20printing.pdf 18:50 < trsohmers> That is a magic bot 18:50 < trsohmers> As someone without journal access, it is a god 18:52 < kanzure> bugfixes appreciated: https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot 18:55 < nmz787> hi 18:55 < trsohmers> hi nmz787 18:56 < nmz787> kanzure: got the alltronics stuff too 18:56 < nmz787> am about to go open up that light source thing 18:56 < kanzure> there were three boxes of alltronics stuff 18:57 < gradstudentbot> I wasn't able to find any references. 18:58 < trsohmers> kanzure and gene_hacker: What do you guys think of that paper? 18:59 < trsohmers> do you think it is possible without the whole permeable layer bit (assuming I am understanding that correctly) 19:00 < kanzure> i haven't read it 19:00 < trsohmers> how did you find that? 19:00 < kanzure> my googlefu is better than yours 19:00 < trsohmers> Damn 19:01 < trsohmers> search term? 19:01 < kanzure> photoelectric printing 19:02 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=intitle%3Aphotoelectric+printing&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C44&as_vis=1 19:03 < trsohmers> I searched photoelectric printing and photoelectric nano printing last week and never saw that 19:03 < trsohmers> damn 19:05 < trsohmers> I don't think you said anything about the idea specifically, kanzure... what do you think? 19:06 < kanzure> still haven't read the paper 19:06 < nmz787> kanzure: yup 19:06 < kanzure> good 19:07 < nmz787> kanzure: just the spec sheet that came with that instrument is great 19:07 < nmz787> scanning now 19:07 < trsohmers> but of the photoelectric metal deposition idea in general (if you read my previous comments on it) 19:07 < nmz787> LIGA 19:07 < kanzure> i don't have a useful opinion either way on that for the moment 19:07 < nmz787> is what I'd be interested in 19:07 < trsohmers> nmz787: Did you see any of the earlier conversation on the metal deposition idea? 19:09 < nmz787> how many DPI is good enough for datasheet text 19:09 < nmz787> no imgs 19:09 < nmz787> trsohmers: no i scanned through but didn't absorb any of it 19:09 < nmz787> nothing about DNA 19:09 < nmz787> or synthesis 19:09 < kanzure> dunno, it's whatever the octopart people say 19:09 < nmz787> heh 19:10 < kanzure> heath: what do the octopart people say is okay for datasheet scanning dpi 19:10 < trsohmers> nmz787: Are you working on/interested in DNA synthesis? 19:10 < kanzure> heath: pester andre 19:10 < nmz787> yes 19:10 < nmz787> been working on it for ~5 years 19:10 < kanzure> trsohmers: i bought a dna synthesizer and nmz787 received it today 19:11 < trsohmers> Two of my friends are working on DNA synthesis 19:12 < trsohmers> kanzure would probably be able to explain what they are doing better than I could 19:13 < nmz787> weren't they doing evolutionary stuff though? 19:13 < nmz787> and i think bulk reactions too 19:13 < nmz787> (so many molecules you can't keep track well) 19:14 < trsohmers> I have no idea, all I know is they are working on a DNA synthesis chip 19:14 < nmz787> mm 19:14 < nmz787> I could be wrong 19:14 < nmz787> there are a few people who have mentioned it 19:15 < nmz787> in recent years 19:16 < trsohmers> gene_hacker: Any ideas on how to investigate forward? 19:17 < nmz787> trsohmers: you know about FIB right? 19:17 < trsohmers> nmz787: Of course 19:17 < nmz787> sorry! 19:17 < trsohmers> Are you going to suggest milling or assisted deposition 19:17 < nmz787> what is it you're after? 19:17 < trsohmers> No worried ;) 19:17 < trsohmers> worries* 19:17 < nmz787> idk what the context is 19:18 < trsohmers> Integrated circuit fabrication 19:18 < trsohmers> I have a rough idea t hat if correct, may be able to do the photolithography step and metal deposition using the same equipment 19:18 < trsohmers> much simpler and cheaper than traditional methods 19:18 < nmz787> hmm 19:18 < nmz787> isn 19:19 < nmz787> t the trad method to use resist and sputter? 19:19 < nmz787> or implant 19:19 < trsohmers> yes 19:19 < nmz787> sputter isn't too hard to make 19:20 < nmz787> have you seen ben krasnow's series on making an LCD? 19:20 < trsohmers> no I haven't 19:20 < nmz787> oh, he makes everything from ebay supplies 19:20 < nmz787> trsohmers: have you ever made transistors before? 19:21 < nmz787> or anything in a mems/semiconductor lab? 19:21 < trsohmers> nmz787: I know the process (Jerri Ellsworth's videos) for transistors in your kitchen 19:21 < kanzure> oh yeah, you should consider taking one of those classes at a community college 19:21 < kanzure> they sometimes have mems classes etc 19:21 < nmz787> trsohmers: exactly 19:22 < trsohmers> Everything I know has been either from Paul and Kettner, or two textbooks I have 19:22 < nmz787> trsohmers: if you can afford the $300-500 they are /the/ most learning per $ 19:22 < trsohmers> plus the internet 19:22 < nmz787> mm 19:22 < nmz787> yeah the implant will be the hard thing 19:22 < trsohmers> I'm technically not allowed to take credit earning courses, but I can probably do it anyways 19:22 < nmz787> is that some international thing? 19:23 < trsohmers> I'm part of this thing called the Thiel Fellowship 19:23 < trsohmers> http://thielfellowship.org 19:23 < nmz787> generally you can opt-out of credits 19:23 < nmz787> ah 19:23 < nmz787> yeah 19:23 < kanzure> oh, just don't tell them 19:23 < trsohmers> exactly 19:23 < nmz787> applied to some of their lab things with kanzure a while ago 19:23 < kanzure> what? 19:23 < trsohmers> Breakout Labs? 19:23 < kanzure> i don't think so 19:24 < nmz787> wasn't it 19:24 < kanzure> i don't remember asking thiel people for money 19:24 < nmz787> that was at least one 19:24 < nmz787> yeah 19:24 < nmz787> Lindy 19:24 < kanzure> only lindy i know is related to shopbot 19:25 < trsohmers> Oh yea, Lindy Fishburne 19:25 < trsohmers> she's the head of Breakout Labs 19:29 < trsohmers> anyways, nmz787, thanks for pointing me to krasnow 19:33 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:33 -!- efm [~efm@vpn.tummy.com] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Konversation terminated!"] 19:35 < nmz787> trsohmers: yeah, he's great. did you have any ideas for implant? 19:36 < nmz787> or were you going to grow oxide then grow doped, and stack layers? 19:36 < trsohmers> Didn't actually think about it too much 19:37 < nmz787> i.e. expose resist, grow oxide, ash resist, grow doped, spin resist and expose, repeat 19:38 < nmz787> metal is only usually top layers and vias and stuff 19:38 < nmz787> i think 19:38 < nmz787> i guess there could be metal in inner layers 19:38 < trsohmers> I know, I just didn't think about it for this process (My unrealistic goal of having it all be in one machine/environment) 19:38 < nmz787> but yeah doping is how you get the action to happen, i thought 19:39 < trsohmers> It is 19:40 < gradstudentbot> Who's doing journal club today? 19:41 < trsohmers> Well, you have a predoped wafer (p doped silicon), and then you need to negatively dope the source and drain 19:41 < nmz787> or grow it horizontally 19:41 < trsohmers> ? 19:41 < nmz787> err 19:41 < nmz787> vertically 19:41 < nmz787> :P 19:42 < trsohmers> that would mean depositing silicon on silicon 19:42 < trsohmers> using a normal CMOS deposition process, the source and drain are inside the silicon wafer 19:42 < trsohmers> you have those negatively doped, and have metal depostited directly ontop of the source and drain 19:43 < trsohmers> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Lateral_mosfet.svg/600px-Lateral_mosfet.svg.png 19:43 < trsohmers> there 19:43 < trsohmers> and you have an oxide layer separating the silicon and the gate 19:43 < nmz787> MM 19:43 < nmz787> whoops 19:43 < nmz787> yeah it would be weird but you could just turn it sideways 19:43 < trsohmers> I suppose 19:44 < trsohmers> that may work with a FinFET 19:44 < trsohmers> https://www.google.com/search?q=silicon+gate+drain&tbm=isch&ei=1_CkU8L9L4OCogTZwICwAQ#q=finfet+source+drain&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=SxlihG_Sir7N8M%253A%3BrabmVDcQelYHtM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fsemimd.com%252Fhars%252Ffiles%252F2013%252F05%252FFig1_IBM_Hook_SOI_FinFET.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fsemimd.com%252Fhars%252Ftag%252Ffinfet%252F%3B834%3B512 19:44 < trsohmers> they are three dimensional and kinda weird, but have much lower leakage 19:58 < nmz787> kanzure: sorry for the 8MB file http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/bio-rad_201ce.pdf 19:59 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59 < nmz787> the jpgs it was originally scanned to were 2.9MB 20:08 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:17 < kanzure> why is this from 1998? 20:17 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:21 < nmz787> NOS 20:24 < nmz787> whoo got my openspectrometer PCBs today too 20:24 < nmz787> dang 20:24 < nmz787> I'm all queued up 20:55 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:56 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@72.12.216.49] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:57 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@89-68-70-120.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:00 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:03 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:05 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:14 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:17 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:18 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:21 < kanzure> that sounds gross 21:38 -!- [nsh] [~unf@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:38 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:40 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:42 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:10 -!- justanot1eruser [~andrew@c-50-129-87-238.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:10 -!- justanot1eruser [~andrew@c-50-129-87-238.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:10 -!- justanot1eruser [~andrew@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:11 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@72.12.216.49] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:11 -!- justanot1eruser is now known as justanotheruser 22:20 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22 -!- [nsh] [~unf@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-24-20-19-199.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:37 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-24-20-19-199.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:38 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQeeJEpBYsg 22:38 < yoleaux> БУТЫЛКОРЕЗ версия 2.0 Применение веревки из бутылки 22:38 < kanzure> (plastic rope from a plastic bottle) 22:44 -!- kumavis [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:46 < kanzure> "My guess is not so optimistic. # of real rust programmers is low. If integrating Firefox with Servo means having 1 small part of Firefox integrated with Servo, mabye, a month of work? But the entire Firefox render engine with Servo will probably be at least 5 years away. While 5 years seems a long time, don't forget time fly and bug blockers come up." 22:46 < kanzure> geeze 22:53 < dingo> "dont forget time fly", is "time fly" some cliche? 22:54 < dingo> i can copy hundreds of lines of code between any of java, python, or C, and migrate them from one language to another in just minutes -- sometimes using vim macros 22:54 < dingo> imperitive languages like these translate very effectively 22:55 < dingo> i guess the problem of course is when there ssome fucking glue library somewhere... can't rust link with C? you would piecemeal it i'm sure 22:56 < dingo> aparently so with a "cate" 22:56 < dingo> crate 23:13 < kanzure> sadly firefox isn't c anyway 23:13 < kanzure> isn't it like 200 layers of javascript before you realize it's just a clown on a unicycle 23:14 < dingo> hehe 23:51 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Sat Jun 21 00:00:41 2014