--- Log opened Sun Jul 27 00:00:16 2014
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03:28 < jrayhawk> paperbot: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/109662004322984789
03:28 < paperbot> XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 70, in _go)
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04:57 < cuba_>  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1620/abstract
04:57 < cuba_> paperbot:  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1620/abstract
04:57 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/6d1dcf9a66e7830b6a284fbac4fa69f1.txt
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04:58 < cuba_> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1620/pdf
04:58 < paperbot> XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 70, in _go)
04:58 < cuba_> paperbot: help
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05:03 < eyefi> anyone hass access to this paper fulltext? http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1620/abstract
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05:18 < chris_99> does anyone recall the name of that crowdfunding site for research
05:18 < chris_99> out of interest
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05:20 < chris_99> got it https://experiment.com/
05:21 < chris_99> oh dear me one of the projects is 'does potato salad taste good'
05:23 < archels> could someone try sending me an e-mail? http://www.turingbirds.com/pgp_public_key.txt
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06:23 < streety> has potato salad become the Rick Astley of crowdfunding sites?
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06:47 < kanzure> so nobody is going to fix scihub.py
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07:26 < archels> or e-mail me, apparently
07:26  * archels sadface
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07:58 < kanzure> did you want it signed or something
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08:49 < archels> I set up PGP for the first time in my life and wanted to do a sanity check
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09:12 < kanzure> ParahSailin: this dude claims transcriptic.com's pricing is wrong https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8092716
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09:27 < ParahSailin> who the fuck does growth curves
09:29 < ParahSailin> transcriptic only really has one product
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09:39 < eudoxia> archels: your initials are like the CAP theorem
09:39 < eudoxia> also i would send you an email but i only set up GPG to use keybase and don't know how to use it
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09:48 < kanzure> archels: there you go
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10:04 < archels> it works!
10:04 < archels> thank you
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10:29 < delinquentme> WEHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
10:30 < delinquentme> archels, np glad I could help
10:32 < streety> re: transcriptic pricing - I'm probably one of the least anti-college folks in here but the line about free undergrad labor really annoys me
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12:37 < kanzure> streety: that's how it happens :\
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13:08 < streety> perhaps I've just been lucky
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15:33 < dpk> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41970403
15:33 < paperbot> XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 70, in _go)
15:33 < dpk> yay, my favourite
15:34 < dpk> paperbot: http://www.jstor.orf/discover/10.2307/41970403
15:34 < paperbot> ConnectionError: HTTPConnectionPool(host='www.jstor.orf', port=80): Max retries exceeded with url: /discover/10.2307/41970403 (Caused by <class 'socket.gaierror'>: [Errno -2] Name or service not known) (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/adapters.py", line 375, in send)
15:35 < dpk> whoops
15:35 < dpk> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41970403
15:35 < paperbot> XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 70, in _go)
15:37 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=213e5ec3 Carl Crott: added login credentials file to .gitignore
15:37 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=f6b96df8 Bryan Bishop: Merge pull request #30 from carlcrott/master
15:37 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=0411c839 Bryan Bishop: better scihub error handling
15:37 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=11be9a6a Bryan Bishop: Merge pull request #31 from kanzure/scihubgo
15:37 < gnusha_> paperbot: reload papers
15:38 < kanzure_> grr
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15:40 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41970403
15:40 < paperbot> AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'text' (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 73, in _go)
15:40 < kanzure> doh
15:40 < nmz787> that paper is weird, and jstor seems even weirder
15:41 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=6cb280fa Bryan Bishop: correct for weird variable name
15:41 < gnusha_> paperbot: reload papers
15:41 < nmz787> even with a school proxy it wants you to login
15:41 < kanzure> paperbot: reload scihub
15:41 < paperbot> kanzure: <module 'scihub' from '/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/scihub.py'> (version: 2014-07-27 22:41:17)
15:41 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41970403
15:41 < paperbot> AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'text' (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 73, in _go)
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15:42 < kanzure> man why has nobody written unit tests for this
15:42 < nmz787> hmm, and it has an IP and timestamp
15:42 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41970403
15:42 < nmz787> i finally got it
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15:42 < kanzure> i don't care
15:42 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/a970c0e236f1df152bf1345c47d7ea9c.txt
15:42 < kanzure> manually fetching a paper is not something that a human should be doing under any circumstance
15:43 < nmz787> :)
15:43 < kanzure> it's like watching a random number generator as entertainment
15:43 < nmz787> I can stop
15:43 < kanzure> you could fix paperbot
15:43 < nmz787> well in this case unless scihub had it, it would have failed
15:44 < nmz787> dpk: http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Slayer_Slang_A_Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_Lexicon.pdf
15:44 < kanzure> what part of 'fix' is confusing in there
15:44 < kanzure> "it would have failed"... but "fix" sort of changes the scenario, you know.
15:44 < dpk> nmz787: ty!
15:44 < kanzure> dpk: paperbot things?
15:45 < dpk> literally just see the PM i literally just sent you
15:50 < nmz787> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.1492304
15:50 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/10f411d63c859c1934f4324480f2f7ed.txt
15:51 < kanzure> <link rel="schema.CRAWLER" href="http://labs.ingenta.com/2006/06/16/crawler" />
15:52 < nmz787> http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Integrating_micro-_and_nanoelectrodes_into_atomic_force_microscopy_cantilevers_using_focused_ion_beam_techniques.pdf
15:54 < nmz787> Fig 2 shows the milling procedure
15:54 < nmz787> each step is increasing in magnificiation
15:54 < nmz787> i think
15:55 < nmz787> maybe that's wrong
15:56 < nmz787> "The first milling steps @depicted in Fig. 2~a!# with a high beam current of 150 pA"
15:56 < nmz787> that's still low compared to the 10,000 pA limit of the machine i was using
15:57 < nmz787> "The
15:57 < nmz787> remodeled tip height was adjusted at 1.5 mm and 650 nm."
16:02 < nmz787> http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Development_of_a_regeneration-type_neural_interface_A_microtube_guide_for_axon_growth_of_neuronal_cells_fabricated_using_focused-ion-beam_chemical_vapor_deposition.pdf
16:05 < nmz787> "This system could use two types of precursor gas: phenanthrene or tungsten hexacarbonyl."
16:05 < nmz787> 3-D printing :P
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16:15 < nmz787> huh, 24/7 FIB access at NIST (with prices listed) http://www.nist.gov/cnst/nanofab/fei_fib_2.cfm
16:15 < nmz787> pretty nice machine too
16:15 < nmz787> though it doesn't seem to have TEMlink
16:15 < kanzure> .g temlink
16:15 < yoleaux> http://www.microscop.ru/uploads/2008_05_TemLink_ds.pdf
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16:22 < nmz787> http://www.microscopy-analysis.com/blog/blog-articles/focused-ion-beam-%E2%80%93-all-grown
16:23 < nmz787> TEMlink is the answer to the "micromanipulator" in the last link
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16:27 < nmz787> huh "A microfluidic device created using the Helios FIB, courtesy of FEI."
16:28 < nmz787> hmm, they make a 2uA FIB, I didn't know that
16:28 < nmz787> that'd be 2,000,000 pA right?
16:34 < nmz787> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2012/591083
16:34 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/4a17c40a4e6db32730c523b6397526c3.txt
16:35 < nmz787> so what's the problem?
16:35 < nmz787> it seems that paper was free to me
16:35 < nmz787> and i ctrl-f 'ed .pdf
16:35 < nmz787> in the .txt
16:35 < nmz787> paperbot: http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/ijo/2012/591083.pdf
16:35 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/829941b7b68a253327e19e3a4d1b69dd.txt
16:46 < jrayhawk> https://crowdfund.ucsf.edu/project/53c5747114bdf74eecbe1cfc crowdfunded PCOS/Paleo RCT for anyone here interested
16:54 < kanzure> bbrittain: https://groups.google.com/group/diybio
16:55 < bbrittain> kanzure: aware of them :P
16:55 < kanzure> ah, well, that's where people are i guess
16:55  * bbrittain is arguably one of them
16:55 < kanzure> you are also a person? quite a twist..
16:56 < bbrittain> yea, crazy. I know.
16:56 < bbrittain> but I have some issues with the DIYbio scene...
16:57 < kanzure> ?
16:57 < bbrittain> oh, emphasis of some projects
16:57 < kanzure> what about the "let's create institutions so that we can participate in non-institutional biology"
16:57 < bbrittain> ++ to that
16:57 < bbrittain> <- has no formal biology training
16:59 -!- superkuh_ is now known as superkuh
16:59 < nsh> let's stop creating institutions.
16:59 < nsh> (let's start elaborating protocols that are capable of incorporating institutional expertise and self-organizational competency)
17:00 < kanzure> saywhat
17:00 < nsh> mm, there's a talk somewhere
17:00 < bbrittain> I really like the emphasis of a few of the SynBio axlr8r groups. despite the dreadful name
17:00 < bbrittain> especially the briefcase biotec stuff
17:01 < kanzure> bbrittain, i think more biotech accelerators will happen as soon as people show the costs are low enough to not need $200k
17:01 < kanzure> bbrittain, because most of the software accelerators are only offering $10-$20k for like 6% of a venture
17:01 < kanzure> which is a really tiny amount
17:01 < kanzure> nsh, i've been thinking about academia and math
17:02 < nsh> .t http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU1s4aILGNY
17:02 < yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name.
17:02 < kanzure> it seems that math, out of all the other fields, probably gets the least from the ivory tower than other fields
17:02 < bbrittain> yea, I agree. but yay ginkgo getting that YC funding. that will help spur things along
17:02 < nsh> .title
17:02 < yoleaux> Eleanor Saitta & Smári McCarthy: Long Live the Protocoletariat! (29c3)
17:02 < nsh> kanzure, by what measure?
17:02 < nsh> protection from the saecular powers?
17:02 < kanzure> oh yeah.. nsh knows of smári. things you forget..
17:02 < kanzure> no i mean, math is serviced by the ivory tower mostly in terms of prestige
17:03 < kanzure> no big labs that require lots of funding
17:03 < nsh> i met smári
17:03 < nsh> he told me "you have to win"
17:03 < nsh> ah, right
17:03 < kanzure> well, he wasn't wrong
17:03  * nsh nods
17:03 < nmz787> "In the near future, laser diodes will replace the centenarian-old spark plug as the source of ignition in vehicle engines, so says Takunori Taira, of Japan's National Institutes of Natural Sciences, and his colleagues."
17:04 < nsh> (how many watts/m^2 of EMP flux do you need to kill a laser-diode spark plug?)
17:06 < nmz787> "Just in case you are interested, any RFI generated by transportation vehicles, are exempt from Part 15 of the FCC's Rules and Regulations"
17:06 < kanzure> unlike biotech that requires, you know, stuff, math requires less stuff
17:06 < nmz787> the tech in biotech relies on EE and physics and quantum physics which relies on math
17:07 < kanzure> i mean there's no particular reason for a mathematician to physically be at a physical university. and i'm suspicious even of the digital case too.
17:07 < nmz787> realistically biotech would probably do great if they brought in tons of math people
17:07 < nsh> but there's a sense in which maths requires much more than any other discipline
17:07 < bbrittain> I'm rather skeptical of that actually nmz787
17:07 < kanzure> nsh, like what
17:07 < nsh> engineering doesn't require anyone to 'get it' to continue working
17:07 < kanzure> what's wrong with requiring people to get it
17:08 < nsh> maths requires a body of people who can traverse the deductive landscape
17:08 < nmz787> bbrittain: so much real work is all based on knowing what way to machine or synthesize something based on some modelling and calculations
17:08 < nsh> and pass on that ability
17:08 < nsh> that's pretty fragile
17:08 < nmz787> cutting experiment time
17:08 < kanzure> nsh, well i mean, let's limit the scope of mathematicians to people who are mathematicians
17:08  * nsh nods
17:08 < nmz787> or rather number of failed experiments
17:09 < bbrittain> nmz787: right, but it's not like a decent biologist can't do that relatively simple math. I mean, it's what they have been trained for.
17:09 < bbrittain> s/biologist/biotechy-biologist/
17:09 < bbrittain> I've worked with some pretty bad at math biologists
17:10 < nmz787> bbrittain: that kind of math is not simple
17:10 < bbrittain> it's like diffeq
17:10 < nmz787> that's well over most bio people
17:11 < nmz787> certainly in terms of actually being able to crunch numbers, or tell a computer to do so
17:11 < nmz787> most *people* glaze over when you mention algebra let alone calculus
17:12 < nmz787> i don't know the % of 'smart' people alive
17:12 < bbrittain> well, really the problem hear is conflation of terminology. when I'm saying biologist right now, I'm not necessarily meaning a ecology/phylogeny/etc.. bio person. I'm talking mostly about synbio people.
17:12 < bbrittain> but that is probably my bad
17:13 < nmz787> well even those people would benefit
17:13 < nmz787> that monk who looked at peas knew some math
17:13 < bbrittain> nmz787: I think you are highly underestimating the amount of domain specific knowledge
17:13 < kanzure> i don't know why you are talking about this, nmz787
17:13 < kanzure> i mentioned math people, and you mentioned biology because why?
17:14 < bbrittain> you can't just throw smart math people at a problem and expect them to see the answers without understanding the problem space
17:14 < nmz787> kanzure: I think you mentioned it to someone
17:14 < bbrittain> kanzure: probably because I briefly mentioned diybio
17:14 < nmz787> bbrittain: no, i'm saying make it their careers
17:14 < kanzure> why make it their careers?
17:14 < nmz787> so that they're math-backed bio ppl
17:15 < nmz787> :/
17:15 < kanzure> huh?
17:15 < nmz787> so they understand the problem space
17:15 < nmz787> and the math space
17:15 < nmz787> like of course they should be interested
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17:15 < kanzure> what problem are you solving? "i would prefer more biology people that have math backgrounds"?
17:15 < nmz787> i'm just saying it would improve things overall
17:16 < bbrittain> we could just make more math mandatory for bio majors :D
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17:16 < nmz787> yeah
17:17 < bbrittain> but anyways. gonna go check out that glowing plant and be amazingly unimpressed in a few days
17:18 < kanzure> why would you bother?
17:18 < bbrittain> well, I've been meaning to check out biocurious while I'm out in cali this summer
17:18 < bbrittain> so I can compare it to genspace
17:18 < kanzure> got it.. i thought you were just intentionally engaging projects you know are crap
17:19 < bbrittain> well, I think it's incredibly overhyped and is using a shitty toolchain
17:19 < bbrittain> but... a glowing plant could be cool. although, aradopsis is ugly.
17:19 < nsh> .wik aradopsis
17:19 < yoleaux> "Arabidopsis (rockcress) is a genus in the family Brassicaceae. They are small flowering plants related to cabbage and mustard. This genus is of great interest since it contains thale cress (Arabidopsis thaliana), one of the model organisms used for studying plant biology and the first plant to have its entire genome sequenced." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabidopsis
17:19 < kanzure> you know it doesn't glow, right
17:20 < bbrittain> kanzure: damn, is it that bad?
17:20 < bbrittain> I heard they had it glowing faintly a few months ago
17:20 < bbrittain> and, I mean it should get better the more times they repeat their cycle
17:20 < kanzure> haha
17:21 < kanzure> ahaha
17:21 < bbrittain> yes?
17:22 < nmz787> arabidopsis isn't ugly!
17:22 < nmz787> i bet it would make pretty damn good saag paneer
17:23 < kanzure> i don't even know where to begin explaining all the lies
17:23 < kanzure> a good lie has the advantage of being hard to remember why it's a lie
17:23 < bbrittain> 1. is it not glowing?
17:23 < bbrittain> at all?
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17:25 < bbrittain> shit. I got distracted by their website. I forgot what my #2 was gonna be
17:26 < bbrittain> also, that is really expensive:http://www.glowingplant.com/maker#_=_
17:26 < bbrittain> the maker kit
17:29 < bbrittain> kanzure: elaborate?
17:30 < nmz787> i think it's more of, where is their proof
17:30  * nmz787 checking the 'blog'
17:31 < nmz787> http://blog.glowingplant.com/post/91858017889/johan-managed-to-capture-the-first-photo-of-the
17:31 < nmz787> bbrittain: ^
17:31 < bbrittain> nmz787: well, they seem to have some long exposure images
17:31 < nmz787> plus not much info otherwise
17:31 < nmz787> not what I'd expect from a company/project blog
17:31 < bbrittain> damn, thats a long exposure
17:31 < bbrittain> look at the noise
17:32 < bbrittain> but, I still don't really see lies, merely ineptness.
17:33 < nmz787> well taking peoples money with a flashy video at the onset then not doing much progress updating to the world at large seems a bit strange
17:33 < nmz787> maybe if you backed the kickstarter you can see more updates
17:33 < nmz787> idk
17:34 < kanzure> "merely ineptness"
17:35 < kanzure> wasn't there some scam about using luciferin or a fluorescent protein somewhere in here
17:35 < bbrittain> 0_o
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17:36 < kanzure> hrmm i should have taken notes
17:36 < nmz787> bbrittain: def go and report back https://www.eventbrite.com/e/meet-the-glowing-plant-biocurious-tickets-12407399867
17:36 < nmz787> if you can
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17:36 < nsh> .ety inept
17:36 < yoleaux> inept (adj.): "c.1600, from Old French inepte (14c.) or directly from Latin ineptus "unsuitable, improper, absurd, awkward, silly, tactless," from in- "not, opposite of" (see in- (1)) + aptus "apt" (see apt). Related: Ineptly; ineptness." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=inept
17:36 < bbrittain> nmz787: already signed up
17:36 < bbrittain> kanzure: gmaxwell and I are going :P
17:36 < bbrittain> but, are you saying the don't actually have it producing luciferin?
17:37 < nsh> i wish i could go places with gmaxwell :/
17:37 < kanzure> bbrittain: go to the one that has juul
17:37 < kanzure> juul: ping
17:37 < nsh> and by places i mean a basement where i chain him up until i have sucked all the braingroks out with elaborate tubes
17:38 < kanzure> bbrittain: there's also the east bay one, but i haven't been there
17:38 < bbrittain> yea, counter culture labs
17:39 < bbrittain> I still think biocurious is the big one though
17:39 < kanzure> not as big as you'd think!
17:39 < bbrittain> out here
17:39 < bbrittain> really? have you been to genspace?
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17:39 < bbrittain> larger or smaller?
17:39 < kanzure> i have been to genspace
17:39 < kanzure> well, it depends on how you math it
17:39 < kanzure> biocurious revealed a few months ago that they only have like <15 paying members
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17:39 < kanzure> genspace does more classes, so probably has more money
17:40 < kanzure> genspace definitely had less space overall. even though the building was larger.
17:40 < bbrittain> yea, I took a class out there a few years ago. it was kinda fun.
17:40 < kanzure> biocurious was suffering from a lot of in fighting
17:40 < kanzure> jojack left to do another one in san diego or carlsbad
17:40 < bbrittain> well.... maybe you aren't familiar with how much infighting there is at genspace :P
17:41 < jcluck> there's not that much infighting at genspace
17:41 < kanzure> "sung stole all the money, wah"
17:41 < bbrittain> haaaa
17:42 < kanzure> it's stupid anyway-- why do they even associate with the diybio community
17:43 < kanzure> (i mean, both biocurious and genspace)
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17:43 < jcluck> to vex you
17:43 < kanzure> oh
17:43 < jcluck> duh :P
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17:43 < bbrittain> well, I mean at least at genspace they actively believe in educating a community I think.
17:43 < kanzure> biocurious has classes too. i think.
17:44 < bbrittain> yea, they seemed worthless
17:44 < kanzure> hah
17:44 < kanzure> i like you
17:44 < jcluck> lol
17:44 < jcluck> genspace classes are nice, and copious
17:44 < bbrittain> lol, thanks
17:45 < bbrittain> jcluck: you involved?
17:45 < jcluck> yes, but not in the last 6 months
17:45 < kanzure> too busy selfishly dying
17:46 < jcluck> actually the complete opposite, expecting a kid in september
17:47 < jcluck> I've been taking care of my pregnant-as-hell partner
17:47 < kanzure> also selfish
17:47 < bbrittain> oh thank god. I've been trying to figure out how to ask if you are feeling better with the potential for a terminal disease.
17:47 < jcluck> probably
17:47 < jcluck> LOL
17:47 < jcluck> it's not COMPLETELY terminal
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17:48 < jcluck> I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes last july and had to stop doing so much fieldwork at genspace
17:48 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:48 < bbrittain> aww, late onset diabetes sucks
17:49 < bbrittain> I wish I lived in NYC again so that I could do stuff at genspace
17:49 < bbrittain> what is the Boston equivalent?
17:50 < bbrittain> if there is one
17:50 < jcluck> bosslab
17:50 < kanzure> bosslab, and the other thing that someone is doing
17:50 < bbrittain> how is bosslab?
17:50 < bbrittain> sweet, like 10 minutes away from my soon-to-be-apt
17:50 < kanzure> possibly idle? i haven't checked
17:50 < jcluck> not very active
17:51 < bbrittain> damn
17:51 < jcluck> it's right off of davis square
17:51 < jcluck> the thing about them is if a few people want to do things, things happen
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17:51 < bbrittain> huh, they have shit going on: http://www.meetup.com/Open-Science-hands-on-learning-BossLab/
17:51 < kanzure> hey that sounds like the rest of life
17:52 < bbrittain> meh, I'll check them out too
17:52 < jcluck> aw 8/5
17:54 < kanzure> nsh: the potential to troll gmaxwell through bbrittain is very very high
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17:55 < bbrittain> it may indeed be possible
17:55 -!- gully_foyle_ja [~theghosto@pool-71-116-68-251.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
17:55 < bbrittain> but only for another month, for I leave for boston
17:56 < bbrittain> so scheme quickly
17:56 < kanzure> okay, so you're going to play the role of the nsa double agent
17:56 < kanzure> and uh, well we're going to need a helicopter
17:56 < nmz787> kanzure: i'm sending you the details of which copter to buy on craigslist
17:56 < bbrittain> s/helicopter/quadrocopter/
17:56 < kanzure> we shall call it the trollcopter
17:56 < bbrittain> it's 2014
17:57 < kanzure> and then some backstory about airdropping a scamcoin
17:57 < nmz787> according to a recent hollywood movie a working helicopter costs $3 million
17:58 < kanzure> renting is not out of question
17:58 < bbrittain> oh my. you should hear him about altcoins in meatspace.
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17:58 < kanzure> i am sure it is hilarious and endearing
17:59 < nsh> wouldn't really want to gmaxwell. one of the few people who has never said or written anything that has given the relatively-large part of my brain that checks to see who's probably stupider than me any ammunition
17:59 < nsh> and that is probably the hardest-working part of my brain
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17:59 < bbrittain> kanzure, in every way
18:00 < nmz787> anyone around who reads chinese? http://www.instructables.com/id/A-Low-Cost-Atomic-Force-Microscope-%E4%BD%8E%E6%88%90%E6%9C%AC%E5%8E%9F%E5%AD%90%E5%8A%9B%E9%A1%AF%E5%BE%AE%E9%8F%A1/#step1
18:00 < bbrittain> 我可以
18:00 < nmz787> what are the copper washer looking things?
18:00 < nmz787> are they copper washers?
18:00 < kanzure> he was bitten by a radioactive satoshi nakamoto
18:00 < kanzure> which explains why he has a brain gland that only does cryptocurrency simulations in his head
18:01  * nsh smiles
18:01 < nsh> i have tried to suggest a more empirical approach to simulating putative cryptocurrency rulesets on a few occasions
18:01 < nsh> maybe it would work better if you were to just code it, kanzure
18:01 < nsh> i can't envision a situation where i'd be sufficiently unlazy to do so
18:02 < kanzure> maybe, i was kind of hoping for amiller or andytoshi to invent the idea first though
18:02 < nsh> aye, they're pretty good for that
18:02 < nsh> good point actually, we should probably make rules about which people aren't allowed on the same plane/bus/train at the same time
18:02 < kanzure> it is hard to figure out how to account for externalities in a rigid ruleset
18:03 < nsh> that's certainly one way to concisely summarize the gist of economic intractability
18:03 < kanzure> sybil wouldn't matter if all humans were dead
18:04 < kanzure> everything becomes way easier with no support for users
18:04 < bbrittain> nmz787: no clue. my chinese does not extend to that technical level
18:04 < kanzure> that was already in the logs
18:04 < kanzure> en-te hwu, etc
18:05 < kanzure> http://books.google.com.tw/books/about?id=rRtyAwAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y
18:05 < bbrittain> that is cool
18:06 < kanzure> nsh: also it would require some bounds on what exactly the software is supposed to be doing (axiomatic proofs of "security"? simulations of agents doing things that we already predict they will be doing?)
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18:06  * nsh nods
18:07 < kanzure> i suppose at minimum having a declarative syntax for listing out the behaviors is nice, even if it doesn't cover all possible behaviors
18:07 < nsh> in my head i just kinda imagine a FisherPrice My-First-Distributed-Consensus-Ledger-Based-On-Economic-Hacks-To-Impossibility-Proofs play-kit
18:07 < nsh> the details are kinda play-dough and day-glo
18:07 < nsh> w
18:08 < nsh> but vaguely you should be able to visualize convergent and divergent behaviour relatively simple in a graphical way
18:08 < nsh> and have some tunable parameters and a bit more involved under-the-hood swap-and-match algorithmic circuitry
18:09 < nsh> at the kind of level of complexity as those radio-shack 300-in-1 electronics projects kids
18:09 < kanzure> when i am headthinking distributed ledger scenarios, visualization isn't my weapon of choice
18:09 < kanzure> it's more like a breadth-first conflict of interest comparator
18:09 < kanzure> .. thing.
18:09 < nsh> there's nothing like moving-blobs to concretize the grok of wot-went-ooops
18:09 < nsh> but that's possibly cognitive provincialism on my part
18:10 < kanzure> "conflict of interest" is probably the wrong way to say it
18:10 < nsh> you have to consider the dimensionality of the space of interest before you can talk about conflict
18:10 < nsh> let alone orthogonality
18:10 < nmz787> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjQSVTLAgbI
18:10 < kanzure> intersecting curved surfaces of fucked up incentives
18:11 < nsh> (let alone different non-commutative vectorial decomposition)
18:11 < nsh> +s
18:12 < nmz787> paperbot: http://books.google.com.tw/books/about?id=rRtyAwAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y
18:12 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5205558733eeac3df2c0d2416d08b6e9.txt
18:13 < kanzure> nsh: maybe it should go the other way around, where small primitives can be thrown together where their boundary conditions can be highlighted when you do things poorly
18:15 < kanzure> and then rather than doing simulations it's just a more analytical thing
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18:16 < kanzure> .g categories of conflicts of interest
18:16 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest
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18:17 < nsh> i'm not sure the domain necessarily affords the kind of continuum hack that makes analysis magic
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18:17 < nsh> maybe there can be a calculus of limiting irrationality
18:18 < nsh> qua in-the-limit
18:19 < kanzure> where is kragen when you need him
18:20 < nsh> next door
18:20 < nsh> discussing giant porn
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18:22 < nsh> "Differential Games: A Mathematical Theory with Applications to Warfare and Pursuit, Control and Optimization"  -- http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Differential_Games.html?id=XIxmMyIQgm0C&redir_esc=y
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18:22 < kanzure> i kinda want a sarcastic version of antichamber made to troll programmers
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18:22 < kanzure> "Sometimes software is indeterministic. Or not."
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18:22 < kanzure> "When first things don't succeed, try switching to UTF-16LE."
18:22 < nsh> i used to like looking at the stamp-page in books in the library to see how often/infrequently they'd been borrowed. shame now with self-service it's not reliable
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18:38 < bbrittain> stumbled across this, I had stopped caring long ago though
18:38 < bbrittain> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/diybio/9ui-uqQB3NU
18:38 < bbrittain> kanzure: ^
18:38 < bbrittain> wasn't aware there were 2 companies doing this
18:48 < kanzure> there was also glofish
18:50 < nmz787> except glofish is real
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19:50 < heath> kanzure: is it worth working for halcyon?
19:50 < heath> i know you did some work for them previously
19:51 < heath> someone is starting or has started something again
19:51 < heath> lee nelson mentioned it in a tweet
19:56 < kanzure> nope i didn't work for them
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20:23 < nmz787> heath: if the money is good, it seems like it would likely be an interesting and potentially rewarding experience
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20:34 < ParahSailin> wait i thought they went bankrupt
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20:41 < kanzure> the world of vc money doesn't quite work like that
20:53 < ParahSailin> they went to stealth mode and put up a fake domain camping page?
20:54 < kanzure> bankruptcy would be listed publicly i think
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22:17 < bbrittain> kanzure: yea, but glofish is patented.
22:17  * bbrittain would never buy
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22:29 < nmz787> you don't use patented things? I wouldn't buy it because it's fluorescent.
22:32 < bbrittain> nmz787: as much as possible, I have a particularly strong aversion to patents in the life sciences
22:32  * bbrittain is very worried, he is about to start a job at a place that might have some patents
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22:54 < bbrittain> yea, shit. I just checked
22:54 < bbrittain> I'm gonna have to learn to deal with it
22:54  * bbrittain is sad
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 28 00:00:17 2014