--- Log opened Tue Oct 14 00:00:10 2014
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01:39 < jrayhawk_> their video documentaries are usually fun, if a bit self-aggrandizing
01:40 < jrayhawk_> I watched the Liberia one yesterday.
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01:49 < jrayhawk_> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG1LGKieTxY
01:49 < yoleaux> Hazmat Highway to Hell with High Pressure Gas Cylinders (No Music) - YouTube
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04:10 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23157625
04:12 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21320726
04:12 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.psychres.2011.01.011
04:13 < ebowden> \:D/
04:15 < ebowden> paperbot: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8490417
04:16 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Modulation%20of%20BDNF%20expression%20by%20repeated%20treatment%20with%20the%20novel%20antipsychotic%20lurasidone%20under%20basal%20condition%20and%20in%20response%20to%20acute%20stress.pdf
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04:46 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.epda.eu.com/en/research-papers/2012/prd/02-01-prelatdisord-6/
04:47 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21924942
04:48 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.parkreldis.2011.09.002
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04:50 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11031089
04:50 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1006%2Fexnr.2000.7483
04:53 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19847468
04:53 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1007%2Fs00415-009-5357-2
04:53 < ebowden> \:D/
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04:55 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21349227
04:55 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1017%2FS1461145711000150
04:56 < ebowden> \:D/
04:56 < ebowden> Oh.
04:56 < ebowden> Didn't work this time.
05:01 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7079/full/nature04474.html
05:01 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnature04474
05:02 < ebowden> \:D/
05:02 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v12/n7/full/nrd4024.html
05:02 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnrd4024
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05:08 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.discoverymedicine.com/Jane-M-Rodgers/2013/08/01/strategies-for-protecting-oligodendrocytes-and-enhancing-remyelination-in-multiple-sclerosis/
05:09 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/728cc919addc5cd553c2e65d6af1fd12.txt
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06:35 < Connie1989> paperbot: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=4388716&fileId=S0025315400046324
06:36 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/91c60fb7a55dea73d47fc4cdca7c2aaa.txt
06:37 < Connie1989> Rats, thanks anyway Paperbot
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08:08 < kanzure_> https://www.nccgroup.com/en/blog/2014/10/analysis-of-the-linux-backdoor-used-in-freenode-irc-network-compromise/
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08:21 < kanzure_> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8452727
08:21 < yoleaux> iSIGHT discovers vulnerability used in Russian cyber-espionage campaign | Hacker News
08:21 < kanzure_> "A vulnerability exists in INF processing and untrusted, 3rd party INF files can be included by PowerPoint files. An exposed dangerous method vulnerability exists in the OLE package manager in Microsoft Windows and Server (Vista SP2 to Windows 8.1, Windows Server versions 2008 and 2012). When exploited, the vulnerability allows an attacker to remotely execute arbitrary code. The vulnerability exists because Windows allows the OLE packager ...
08:21 < kanzure_> ... (packager .dll) to download and execute INF files. In the case of the observed exploit, specifically when handling Microsoft PowerPoint files, the packagers allows a Package OLE object to reference arbitrary external files, such as INF files, from untrusted sources. This will cause the referenced files to be downloaded in the case of INF files, to be executed with specific commands. An attacker can exploit this vulnerability to execute ...
08:22 < kanzure_> ... arbitrary code but will need a specifically crafted file and use social engineering methods (observed in this campaign) to convince a user to open it."
08:23 < kanzure_> "So, it's a remote exploit, but requires the user to open a document." blah
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09:20 < JayDugger> Hmmm...
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09:42 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu-metal ("zero gauss" could be a band name, or an anime, or a physics romance novel)
09:42 < yoleaux> 24 Aug 2014 05:44Z <kanzure> fenn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk
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09:43 < fenn> yes i made some "pykrete" once and it is indeed tough stuff
09:44 < fenn> it seems problematic to force "conscientious objectors" to build military equipment
09:45 < fenn> does it really matter who pushes the button
09:50 < fenn> (habakkuk was a prototype battleship built by conscientious objectors)
09:55 < kanzure> fenn: notmuch-style bookmark tool https://github.com/davidlazar/jotmuch
10:01 < fenn> cool. i wonder why it needs jinja
10:01 < fenn> and webkit
10:02 < kanzure> webkit is for snapshots. obviously a bad idea.
10:02 < kanzure> fenn: some autopilot drone stuff, https://github.com/PX4/Firmware https://pixhawk.org/start http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/announcements/2014/10/linux-foundation-and-leading-technology-companies-launch-open
10:02 < kanzure> erm and https://www.dronecode.org/
10:03 < kanzure> amusing mistakes in coordinates http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Axis_Order_Confusion
10:05 < kanzure> incentives for information leakers https://github.com/unsystem/paypub
10:05 < kanzure> wei dai talking about cryptography and singularity stuff http://extropians.weidai.com/extropians.3Q97/4356.html
10:06 < kanzure> i dunno if you saw the log for 2014-10-09 but it turns out that wei dai's motivations were basically "i read some vernor vinge science fiction and then i decided to write an open source cryptography library" which is an awesome motivation.
10:07 < fenn> yes i read the log and also a few years ago i had read that extropians post
10:08 < kanzure> so i guess he writes all of his own cryptography software out of paranoia?
10:08 < fenn> doesn't everyone?
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10:09 < fenn> i can't think of many instances in which i would want a png thumbnail of a webpage
10:09 < fenn> all my shit is just gray on gray anyway
10:10 < kanzure> i haven't been using that archiving feature
10:10 < kanzure> i would rather route everything through squid
10:10 < fenn> to do what
10:10 < kanzure> for archiving page content
10:10 < kanzure> instead of spinning up an extra webkit instance
10:11 < fenn> the png is supposed to remind you what the page is, since presumably you were too lazy to tag it
10:11 < fenn> it's not a copy of the page content
10:11 < kanzure> so far tagging has not been a terrible burden for me
10:11 < kanzure> but this might be because i have been tagging every conversation i have for the past five years anyway
10:11 < fenn> right, i'm guessing anyone using this program is looking for a way to do tagged bookmarks
10:11 < kanzure> i would sure hope so.
10:12 < fenn> i've been meaning to set up squid for page archiving and CSS murdering for since forever
10:13 < kanzure> "the wayback machine will do it for me, right? right??"
10:13 < kanzure> btw http://web.archive.org/save/url is a thing they added
10:13 < fenn> someone did a 'blurryweb' prank which made all images blurry.. i figured it would be easy to use that code for making all line drawing images white on black
10:14 < kanzure> mitmproxy/libmproxy has an upsidedownternet example in their repo
10:14 < fenn> i was adding some stuff to archive earlier today.. you can just visit the url as if it were in archive already.. if it's not, the url will be saved
10:14 < fenn> it doesnt work on directories
10:16 < fenn> speaking of archives, how many copies of the mailing list are in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/extropians/ ?
10:16 < kanzure> at least 3?
10:16 < fenn> the README.txt was not very enlightening
10:16 < kanzure> wei dai's copy has some redactions
10:16 < kanzure> eventually i will have to do a proper diff (after parsing, sigh, because format differences)
10:17 < fenn> is there a program to extract the original messages from whatever html mailing list interface people use?
10:17 < fenn> i seem to run across this problem a lot
10:17 < kanzure> haven't seen one.
10:20 < kanzure> javascript nurbs kernel with unit tests http://verbnurbs.com/ https://github.com/pboyer/verb
10:21 < fenn> today i found an archive of the first mailing list on the internet: http://keithlynch.net/sfl/  (anthropological context http://www.ais.org/~ronda/new.papers/usenet_early_days.txt )
10:21 < kanzure> isn't that the cryonics person
10:22 < fenn> it bears a striking resemblance to the stuff you find in vernor vinge novels
10:22 < fenn> yes i was wondering if you knew keith
10:22 < kanzure> "let's write emails to ourselves and maybe if they are good enough we will cause the singularity to happen"
10:22 < fenn> i've heard worse plans
10:23 < kanzure> keith lynch must have been pre-meetlog cause he's not mentioned anywhere in it
10:23 < fenn> he also has an archive of cryonet but took it down because people suck
10:25 < fenn> anyway i find it interesting to read early internet and pre-internet stuff
10:26 < kanzure> have you seen the early usenet conspiracy theories about nick szabo? before everyone thought he was satoshi nakamoto?
10:26 < kanzure> http://borg.uu3.net/ldetweil/medusa/medusa.html#hits
10:27 < fenn> theories about him?
10:27 < kanzure> "L.D. believed that "Nick Szabo" (szabo@netcom.com) was a "tentacle" or a front for various cryptoanarchists to post from. L.D. dissects an actual Szabo post here under the S.Boxx pseudonym, but misattributed it to J.Gilmore in a typical mischievous mood. The references to untraceable digital cash are classic cypherpunk. The pornography allusions are rarer but tie in with the T.C.May pornography post above."
10:28 < fenn> isn't he an economics professor who holds regular office hours?
10:28 < kanzure> i believe he's slightly more elusive than that
10:29 < fenn> huh. "In 1995, he proposed a challenge to build a macroscale replicator from Lego robot kits and similar basic parts."
10:29 < fenn> where the hell were all these people when i was a kid
10:29 < kanzure> yes everyone was talking about replicators back then
10:30 < kanzure> some of that is in the extropians archives
10:30 < kanzure> i get the distinct feeling that there's an earlier mailing list from 1985-1990 where vernor vinge, ray kurzweil, nick szabo, hal finney, and others were throwing ideas around.
10:30 < kanzure> because most of them just show up on extropians already knowing each other
10:31 < kanzure> and not having to explain background about what a von neumann probe is, etc.
10:31 < fenn> ping: unknown host gwu.edu
10:31 < fenn> wtf
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10:38 < ParahSailin_> "i need lots of my own DNA for experiments at school." ; is male
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10:39 < fenn> i bet they knew each other from usenet
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10:39 < kjskjskjs> so apparently energy prices are falling dramatically because of US shale oil and gas?  how long will that last?
10:40 < kanzure> what?
10:40 < fenn> until it runs out
10:40 < kjskjskjs> right, but is that 1, 3, 10, 30 years?  presumably in 15 years solar will make it irrelevant
10:40 < fenn> i got the impression it was at least 30
10:41 < kjskjskjs> is anybody doing evolutionary mechanical design yet with FEM for flexible objects?
10:41 < kjskjskjs> (are there capital investments for solar plants that draw on scarce resources? e.g. platinum-iridium crucibles for melting the silicon.)
10:41 < fenn> there's "endless forms" but it sucks and doesn't use FEM.. i've seen some topological optizimation algorithms that do use FEM but aren't evolutionary
10:42 < fenn> based on level sets
10:42 < ParahSailin_> dont they use quartz crucibles for si
10:42 < fenn> sounds like it would dissolve instantly
10:44 < fenn> there are thin film solar panel manufacturing processes that use only mild vacuum and microwave radiation
10:44 < fenn> i'm not sure what the current commodity technology is
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10:48 < fenn> most topology optimization is aimed at maximizing stiffness to mass ratio, not minimizing fatigue or whatever it is you're after
10:49 < kanzure> fenn: http://pastebin.com/ixx2xRRB
10:51 < fenn> who knew "thimerosal" was actually "thiomersal"
10:52 < fenn> i dont get why they would make the name intentionally confusing
10:53 < kanzure> also did i show you https://github.com/dcowden/cadquery/blob/master/examples/FreeCAD/Ex023_Parametric_Enclosure.py and http://verbnurbs.com/
10:55 < fenn> is there an image of that script's output? i'm not set up to run it
10:55 < kanzure> well, try:
10:55 < kanzure> http://parametricparts.com/parts/832hzct6/
10:56 < kanzure> and then click 'modelscript' (which is really just python + cadquery)
10:56 < kanzure> 'fabberking' hm
10:56 < kanzure> oh it's a person
10:56 < kanzure> hole = Workplane("XY").center(x_now, y_now).circle(d_list[x + y * x_num_of_holes.value] / 2).extrude(thickness.value)
10:57 < fenn> dammit everything is javascript these days
10:57 < kanzure> anyway i have suddenly remembered that i did show this to you, when i was complaining about opencascade tolerances
10:57 < kanzure> well, a few months ago i began working on lolcad again
10:57 < kanzure> but then i stopped when i saw verbnurbs
10:57 < kanzure> there is a great conflict in my head going on for whether or not i should port verbnurbs into lolcad (python) or if i hsould just contribute to that javascript library
10:58 < fenn> (i was grumbling about there not being any .png output, not about verbnurbs)
10:58 < kanzure> i am sure you would eventually get around to complaining about verbnurbs
10:58 < fenn> anyway i get the idea
10:59 < kjskjskjs> quartz crucibles wouldn't run into scarce resources
11:00 < kjskjskjs> I don't actually know
11:00 < kjskjskjs> (what crucibles/furnace materials/etc. are used)
11:00 < kjskjskjs> thin-film processes are uniformly dependent on scarce resources of indium and gallium
11:00 < kjskjskjs> current commodity technology is polycrystalline silicon
11:02 < kjskjskjs> I presumably already linked to https://github.com/kragen/stl3dpy here already, no? but all I've designed with it so far is a stochastic surface and some shower rings
11:02 < kjskjskjs> and it needs some work before it reaches reach "Workplane("XY").center(x_now, y_now).circle(d_list[x + y * x_num_of_holes.value] / 2).extrude(thickness.value)"
11:02 < ParahSailin_> thio mer salicylate
11:03 < kanzure> why are you doing an stl library?
11:03 < kanzure> there are many many stl libraries..
11:03 < kanzure> some with possibly usable apis too
11:04 < kjskjskjs> because the STL part took me like half an hour to write
11:04 < kjskjskjs> that's not enough time to evaluate the APIs of two or three libraries
11:04 < kanzure> this does not count as one of the usable ones, but... https://github.com/diN0bot/miller/blob/master/lib/cad.py
11:04 < kanzure> (gershenfeld's)
11:05 < kjskjskjs> a better question is "why are you doing your own geometry?"
11:05 < kjskjskjs> which I don't have a great excuse for
11:06 < kanzure> "fuck you" is an acceptable excuse, in here
11:06 < kjskjskjs> are parametricparts and verbnurbs free software?
11:06 < kanzure> parametricparts is a website that uses cadquery under the hood "somewhere"
11:06 < kanzure> both cadquery and verbnurbs are open-source
11:07 < fenn> heh dinobot was my roomate for a couple months
11:07 < kanzure> however, cadquery requires freecad which requires opencascade http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade
11:07 < kanzure> fenn you had like 30 not-always-the-same-roommates for more than a year, i don't think that should be surprising any more
11:08 < kjskjskjs> what does cadquery do?
11:08 < fenn> well i was in pod A and she was in pod B
11:08 < kanzure> cadquery is just a python wrapper on top of freecad's api
11:08 < kjskjskjs> what does freecad's api do?
11:08 < kanzure> it makes it look less awful and does chaining
11:08 < kanzure> freecad's api is a wrapper around opencascade
11:08 < kjskjskjs> that explains the name
11:08 < kjskjskjs> what does opencascade do?
11:08 < fenn> crashes
11:08 < kjskjskjs> ha
11:09 < kjskjskjs> I mean, does it do 3D geometry, or file formats, or both, or what?
11:09 < kanzure> everything, man
11:09 < fenn> both and also 9000 other things
11:09 < fenn> just not very reliably
11:09 < kanzure> here are some of the components: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade/#packages
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11:10 < kjskjskjs> openscad is instead built around some other 3D library
11:11 < kanzure> cgal/opencsg
11:11 < kanzure> unfortunately stl is extremely memory hungry
11:11 < kjskjskjs> yeah
11:11 < kjskjskjs> what do you mean, stl is memory hungry?
11:11 < kjskjskjs> because you have to represent curved surfaces as a large number of triangles?
11:12 < kanzure> nurbs can represent a perfect sphere in like <20 bytes but stl requires some sort of impossibly large number of bytes
11:12 < kjskjskjs> (I mean, stl is a file format, not a library)
11:12 < kjskjskjs> nurbs can represent a perfect sphere? that's news to me
11:12 < kjskjskjs> stl can't represent a perfect sphere
11:12 < fenn> nurbs can represent a perfect sphere within floating point error
11:12 < kanzure> ermm let me clarify, i believe nurbs can represent a perfect half-sphere only? and then you have to merge the two surfaces.
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11:13 < kanzure> oh
11:13 < kanzure> what if you just store it with a pi symbol though?
11:13 < fenn> hemisphere.. whatever
11:14 < fenn> the spline has a set of float coefficients. not sure how to store a pi symbol in that data structure
11:15 < fenn> pi is "irrational" :P
11:16 < kanzure> you could imagine a data structure that stores equations instead of floats
11:16 < fenn> yes, f-cad
11:16 < kanzure> and then evaluate the equation to whatever decimal you want
11:16 < fenn> erm, f-rep
11:16 < kanzure> you could also do this with stl, but it wouldn't help with the memory issues
11:16 < fenn> not exactly, because stl isn't parametric
11:17 < fenn> you can generate some stl geometry but later on not be able to derive the original parameters
11:17 < fenn> blah why am i talking about this
11:18 < kjskjskjs> I don't think you can representa perfect half-sphere with a single nurbs patch
11:18 < archels_> you could store a sphere in a single degenerate NURBS, I think
11:18 < kjskjskjs> within floating-point error
11:19 < kjskjskjs> but I've never written anything that uses NURBS so I probably should be quiet
11:19 < kjskjskjs> I did write a thing that uses interval arithmetic though, which turned out interesting
11:20 < kjskjskjs> http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/aspmisc/intervalgraph.html
11:20 < kjskjskjs> you can represent a perfect sphere very easily as an implicit surface
11:20 < archels_> if you want to go all exact/algebraic number representation on us, that's a different matter
11:20 < kanzure> fenn: how about something different? https://github.com/kanzure/bitcoin-incentives/blob/master/bitcoin-incentives.tex
11:21 < kjskjskjs> interval arithmetic seems like a promising approach for generating 3D forms that I can later 3D-print
11:21 < fenn> i think i should sleep
11:22 < fenn> nice to see you all again
11:24 < kanzure> hmph
11:29 < kjskjskjs> kanzure: why do miners have an incentive to remove the available transaction fees other miners could benefit from?
11:30 < kjskjskjs> because the other miners might use those fees to buy more Bitcoin ASICs and thus increase the difficulty?  I'm not sure that makes sense
11:30 < kanzure> go on
11:31 < kjskjskjs> no, that's a complete question
11:31 < kanzure> even in the absence of that "because other miners might use those transaction fees to..." there's just the "more money yo" aspect.
11:31 < kjskjskjs> no, that's the other option
11:31 < kjskjskjs> I mean, the othe rincentive
11:31 < kanzure> i should number/name these damn it
11:31 < kjskjskjs> you're saying that, separate from "more money yo", miners have an incentive to remove available transaction fees other miners could benefit from
11:31 < kjskjskjs> but why?
11:32 < kjskjskjs> because they're mean people who want to hurt others?
11:32 < kanzure> oh interesting, i didn't elaborate in the document huh
11:32 < kanzure> andytoshi: ping
11:32 < kjskjskjs> https://gist.github.com/kragen/bec6fc042c651d550333 is an edit of your document for some typographic stuff
11:32 < kjskjskjs> I was trying to fork it but that never worked
11:33 < kjskjskjs> sorry
11:33 < kanzure> O_o well okay. i will patch soon.
11:34 < kanzure> so, you don't like the "might use those fees to buy more Bitcoin ASICs and thus increase the difficulty" reasoning?
11:34 < kjskjskjs> I think it might work but needs to be argued at more length
11:34 < kjskjskjs> because it's not obvious that it works
11:34 < kjskjskjs> to me anyway
11:35 < kanzure> miners that have reserve unactivated hashing power could possibly benefit from anyone activating more mining power, to the extent that it pushes out smaller miners, i suppose.
11:35 < kanzure> oh okay. i see.
11:35 < kjskjskjs> I mean, maybe that applies equally well if the miner gets the fees themself and uses it to buy more Bitcoin ASICs
11:35 < kjskjskjs> but I guess that just diminishes their gain rather than reversing it
11:35 < kjskjskjs> but I think if you're explicitly calling out hte red-queen nature of mining you need to be expliciter
11:36 < kanzure> fair enough, whole point of the document is to be explicit anyway
11:38 < kanzure> kjskjskjs: one of the struggles at the moment is to get a good model of bitcoin to work
11:39 < kanzure> it is a highly subtle set of incentives and constraints that, when modified without due attention to subtleties, causes disaster
11:47 < andytoshi> kanzure: pong
11:47 < andytoshi> what's up?
11:50 < kjskjskjs> for example: can there be multiple blockchain systems in the world?
11:51 < kjskjskjs> I mean, the thing that underpins the blockchain is that no potential participant has enough compute power to 51% it
11:51 < kjskjskjs> But that doesn't apply to new blockchain-based systems
11:52 < kjskjskjs> since almost any mining pool in Bitcoin will be larger than they are
11:52 < andytoshi> the difficulty is actually not relevant, that just controls the timing
11:52 < andytoshi> regardless of diffchanges, the greater a proportion a miner has of the available hashpower, the greater his rewards
11:52 < kjskjskjs> or, now that those are ASIC-based, any mining pool in some second-tier coin
11:52 < andytoshi> so the miner can either increase his absolute hashpower or decrease that of others
11:52 < kjskjskjs> andytoshi: true
11:53 < kjskjskjs> although that's not a very strong incentive to decrease that of others
11:53 < kjskjskjs> also: does Bitcoin exacerbate Piketty's r>g problem?
11:54 < andytoshi> i don't recall what that is, and iirc i never did figure it out
11:54 < andytoshi> when i last looked at it
11:54 < andytoshi> i've gotta go tho, sorry
11:54 < kjskjskjs> chau
11:54 < kjskjskjs> Piketty claims that inequality is increasing because the rate of return on capital (r) is greater than the growth rate of the economy (g)
11:55 < andytoshi> oh that's right
11:55 < andytoshi> yup, never figured it out :)
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11:56 < kanzure> kjskjskjs: genehacker may be able to provide links or thoughts about your mechanical design issues
11:56 < kjskjskjs> hi genehacker
11:56 < genehacker> mechanical design issues of?
11:56 < kjskjskjs> I don't know if my ideas are productive or interesting, but here they are
11:57 < kjskjskjs> sort of a generalizaiotn of the geartrain thing
11:58 < kjskjskjs> it seems like if you can express the constraints and metric of goodness of a mechanical part in automatically evaluable terms, you ought to be able to use general search procedures to design the part
11:58 < genehacker> by general search you mean querying a big database?
11:58 < kjskjskjs> no
11:59 < kjskjskjs> like A* search, or hill-climbing, or simulated annealing, or genetic algorithms
11:59 < kjskjskjs> let me be more specific
11:59 < genehacker> yes, and that's exactly what we do
11:59 < kjskjskjs> oh really?  where?
11:59 < genehacker> you talking about campbell's geartrain thing right?
12:00 < kanzure> he doesn't know about campbell
12:00 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/campbell/
12:00 < genehacker> what geartrain thing are you talking about?
12:00 < genehacker> Shea's work?
12:00 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Automated%20Synthesis%20and%20Optimization%20of%20Gear%20Train%20Topologies%20-%20Albert%20Swantner%20-%202009.pdf
12:00 < kanzure> (just dropping that for kjskjskjs dunno if he means shea or not)
12:00 < kjskjskjs> yeah, that's the one I meant
12:01 < kjskjskjs> as an example, I want to screw a thing to the wall to hang a bike from
12:02 < kjskjskjs> it needs to have a hole in it of suchand such diameter at least 70cm from the wall, support 40kg of weight at that hole, be held to the wall with holes of such and such diameter
12:02 < kjskjskjs> handle, say, 10kg of side-loading in any direction
12:02 < genehacker> that sounds like a job for topology optimization
12:03 < kjskjskjs> and handle shocks
12:03 < kjskjskjs> and not obstruct hte space below the hole
12:03 < kjskjskjs> and designs that use less material and a minimum number of holes to hold to the wall are better
12:03 < kjskjskjs> so evaluating a design to see whether it meets the constraint requires FEM analysis (right?)
12:04 < genehacker> yes
12:04 < kjskjskjs> mechanical engineers who do FEM analysis still have to look over the mesh by hand to guess whether it will simulate the part adequately (they tell me)
12:04 < genehacker> except for the hold the thing to the wall part, that's a topology optimization problem
12:05 < kanzure> campbell has implemented "topology optimization plus FEM analysis for each generated design" many many times over
12:05 < kjskjskjs> cool
12:05 < kjskjskjs> did htey solve the "error bars on the FEM mesh used" problem adequately?
12:05 < kjskjskjs> because obviously having a manual step in the middle is no good
12:06 < genehacker> well you'll want to do manual verification of what you've gotten out and that's not to hard to do
12:06 < kanzure> error bars almost don't matter compared to the wildly different results each design gives you (usually campbell is looking at wildly different designs, not just "optimize the resistance of a resistor")
12:07 < kjskjskjs> well, if you make your mesh too coarse, you'll get wildly different results
12:07 < kjskjskjs> the question is how to tell when you've made the mesh too coarse
12:07 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/campbell/The%20A-Design%20approach%20to%20managing%20automated%20design%20synthesis.pdf
12:07 < kjskjskjs> I'll read through the campbell papers :)
12:08 < kanzure> that last one is perhaps most relevant
12:08 < kjskjskjs> is there other stuff I should read too to find out who's doing this?
12:08 < kjskjskjs> I also want to do this for FDM slice planning
12:08 < kjskjskjs> because existing slicers have a whole lot of ad-hoc special cases in them
12:09 < genehacker> you want to do topology optimization
12:09 < kjskjskjs> when in theory all you need is a search procedure that starts with a crude approximation of your part and a simulation of the deposition process (cooling of the plastic, etc.)
12:09 < kanzure> oh why are you simulating deposition?
12:09 < genehacker> people are doing it
12:09 < kjskjskjs> well, I'm not happy with existing slicers
12:10 < kjskjskjs> they do a terrible job in occasoinal cases and a bad job most of the time
12:10 < kanzure> oh, you mean the nozzle is your part you are optimizing
12:10 < kjskjskjs> no
12:10 < kjskjskjs> optimizing the G-code that movez the nozzle
12:10 < kjskjskjs> if we were to go way out there we could integrate the mechanical design search with the G-code design in order to find the part that solves the problem in the minimal amount of printing time without doing things that are hard for the printer
12:11 < genehacker> nah, there's a pretty good simulator out there
12:11 < kjskjskjs> like overhangs, horizontal surfaces, that kind of thing
12:11 < kjskjskjs> there is?
12:11 < genehacker> it just isn't out yet
12:11 < genehacker> some people at parc have a really cool one
12:11 < kjskjskjs> does it have a name?
12:12 < genehacker> it also finds the best orientation to build something, but it doesn't optimize slicing
12:12 < genehacker> ufab and unfortunately that won't get you anywhere
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12:15 < kjskjskjs> what does it optimize othe rthan orientation if not slicing?
12:15 < kjskjskjs> maybe if I ask people who work at parc about ufab then they can send me a video or arrange a demo or something
12:18 < genehacker> they assume 1 slicing algorithm
12:19 < genehacker> and figure out the best way to make something so that all features come out
12:21 < kjskjskjs> what are the variants they search, other than different orientations?
12:23 < genehacker> I think just orientations
12:23 < kjskjskjs> ah
12:23 < kjskjskjs> that's valuable but it's not a very multidimensional search space :)
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13:05 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6205/89.short
13:05 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1252945
13:07 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140902/ncomms5792/full/ncomms5792.html
13:07 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fncomms5792
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13:07 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141014/ncomms6145/full/ncomms6145.html
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13:08 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fncomms6145
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13:15 < kanzure> "In the US, if you are a professional and you offer your services for free, there could be a tax liability past a certain amount of time."
13:16 < heath> http://formatjs.io "Internationalize your web apps on the client & server."
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13:18 < delinquentme> Ok so I want to sample sweat.
13:18 < yoleaux> 12 Oct 2014 20:06Z <nmz787_> delinquentme: you rang? (it's been a few days
13:18  * delinquentme licks nmz787's arm
13:19 < delinquentme> you taste deficient.
13:19 < delinquentme> I need suggestions on how to sample a few electrolytes at the skins surface
13:20 < delinquentme> and not like a single sampling but more towards continuous
13:20 < Lemminkainen> how'd your last project turn out, delinquentme ?
13:20 < Lemminkainen> got any porkanoids growing?
13:23 < delinquentme> Lemminkainen, market demand for a single line chemical is blah
13:24 < delinquentme> theres a related operation that someone else is doing but eh.
13:25 < Lemminkainen> so what's the last bio project you've finished?
13:36 < delinquentme> Lemminkainen, everyone
13:36 < delinquentme> Lemminkainen, I know what you're getting at -- but dont you have a startup to run?
13:48 < Lemminkainen> I'm simply unwilling to help point you in the right direction on a new project when you don't have results from your efforts on anything you've previously been excited about
13:49 < Lemminkainen> if you do have results, let me know, I'd love to know that something has come of your excitement
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14:29 < kanzure> hmmm http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.7/svn.advanced.vendorbr.html
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17:50 < kanzure> "I remember a great story from Sandra Kurtzig's book "CEO: Building a $400 Million Company from the Ground Up". She demoed her package to her first customer. He was wowed and asked , "How much?" She was worried about overpricing, but she said "$50,000" anyway. And when he didn't blink, she added, "per module." And when he still didn't object, "per year.""
17:50 < kanzure> well, was he even alive?
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19:22 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9dcb25ef3021560ecec080d3acb11910.txt
19:23 < kanzure> what?
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19:25 < kjskjskjs> heh
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19:40 < justanotheruser> little did they know that paperbot was submitted that requuest over a year ago
19:43 < kanzure> yep right after he applied for a diploma
19:52 < justanotheruser> ...
19:53 < justanotheruser> kanzure: are you in college technically?
19:53 < kanzure> nope
19:53 < justanotheruser> ok nvm
19:53 < justanotheruser> I thought you were saying paperbot might be running on a branch that gets papers via your colleges access
19:54 < kanzure> that would be independent of whether or not i am at college
19:54 < kanzure> also, it wouldn't be a branch if that was the case
19:54 < kanzure> i really, really promise there's no missing code in paperbot
19:54 < kanzure> with the exception of nmz787's recent changes.... oops. i guess i can't claim that anymore.
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20:48 < kanzure> boost-free version of bitcoind (not merged upstream yet) https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/tree/libbitcoinconsensus
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21:15 < justanotheruser> kanzure: seems dangerous
21:15 < justanotheruser> I would be surprised if this gets merged
21:17 < kanzure> he's going to be breaking it up
21:17 < justanotheruser> ?
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21:21 < kanzure> instead of merging the whole thing
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--- Log closed Wed Oct 15 00:00:11 2014