--- Log opened Sun Oct 19 00:00:17 2014
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00:24 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP8QDBBQNHg
00:24 < yoleaux> Dragon Ball- Season 1 Episode 1: Secret of the Dragon Balls - YouTube
00:32 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi4Hcs12oms
00:32 < yoleaux> Death Note - Episode 1 - Full Episode - English Dubbed - YouTube
00:32 < kanzure> hm.
00:43 < kanzure> .title http://pastebin.com/VYpQ5CWA
00:43 < yoleaux> Lately, whenever I say the name "Ryan Kennedy", two particular people spring to - Pastebin.com
00:43 < JayDugger> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g05AkWUvKUw&list=UUSdmuA0iUC-cC0hsWVUCALg
00:43 < yoleaux> Pulse Magnet for 2 Pianos and 2 Percussion by Matthew Hindson - YouTube
00:57 < kanzure> "Euclid Writes an Algorithm: A Fairytale" http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/lamport/pubs/euclid.pdf
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07:00 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8477230 "We use schematics to back the data on our domain models. It provides models that are separate from persistence models that live in the data / client layer (database or external service bound), and gives you a few nice things for free (like validation) and you can attach behavior to them."
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08:54 < kanzure> "Making sure crypto stays insecure" http://cr.yp.to/talks/2014.10.18/slides-djb-20141018-a4.pdf
08:55 < kanzure> JayDugger: split keyboard http://ergodox.org/
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09:19  * fenn holds out hoping for pants-compatible ergodox
09:20 < fenn> i guess the idea is if you want to adjust the (dihedral?) angle you 3d print a new case bottom?
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09:28 < kanzure> i spotted brandon wiley sending email to the plover people
09:29 < fenn> who is brandon wiley?
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09:30 < fenn> "Brandon Wiley cofounded the free software initiative to implement the Freenet architecture. When not coding for freedom, he is a freelance consultant, playwright, and filmmaker. He specializes in online communities and postmodern romantic comedies."
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09:31 < fenn> works/attends university of texas austin?
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09:32 < fenn> how does someone like this have such a low internet profile
09:32 < kanzure> he's not low profile you've known about him for years
09:32 < kanzure> this is like the least low profile you can get "Brandon Wiley co-founded freenet back in 1999 along with Ian Clarke. "
09:33 < kanzure> there was some other reason that i know him but i can't remember.. it wasn't because of his presence in austin or austin hackerspace, and it wasn't freenet.
09:33 < fenn> but that was like three pages down the search results
09:34 < fenn> "ACTLab TV is an open source initiative Brandon Wiley co-founded while in graduated school at the University of Texas at Austin in the New Media program. Through the facilitation of Sandy Stone and along with a fellow colleague Brandon helped develop a peer to peer streaming video system that allows content providers to share broadcast to thousands of users over their own broadband connections."
09:35 < fenn> i thought ACTLab got shut down
09:35 < kanzure> checking some old emails
09:35 < kanzure> he sent this 2011-02-24 http://www.quadror.com/about-quadror/
09:35 < kanzure> "QuaDror is a new space truss geometry that unfolds manifold design initiatives and can adapt to various conditions and configurations."
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09:37 < fenn> i remember that
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09:52 < fenn> "Brandon Wylie is a Funeral Director at Wyle Funeral Homes in Maryland. He earned his Associate of Applied Science Degree (AAS) in funeral service and mortal science at Fayetteville Technical Community College"
09:52 < fenn> mortal science: science for mortals?
09:55 < kanzure> .title http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6797
09:55 < yoleaux> Distributed Hash Tables, Part I | Linux Journal
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09:59 < JayDugger> Kanzure, Thank you.
10:01 < kanzure> "Another claim from the original work of Nakamoto, which turned out not to be completely true is that a probability of reverting a transaction in a block on top of which there are n other blocks decreases exponentially with n. ... Lear Bahack [8] has recently shown that this claim is no longer true if we consider the difficulty adjustment algorithm, which is used in Bitcoin to gradually make mining new blocks more difficult as the total ...
10:01 < kanzure> ... computational power of all miners grows. In his paper Bahack shows than an adversary can discard a block on any depth with a probability 1 regardless of his computational power if he is willing to wait long enough. An interesting survey of the known strategies for dishonest miners and their discussion can be found in [21]."
10:05 < fenn> i'm pretty sure this is an outline for a science fiction novel: http://blanu.net/curious_yellow.html
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10:08 < kanzure> "The primary strategy behind the Warhol superworm is to pre-scan the network for vulnerable targets. When the worm is launched it already has a large list of targets with a known method for infection and can therefore quickly infect an initial seed population.
10:09 < kanzure> One thing which the Warhol paper mentions is that better results might be achieved via a coordinated worm in which various instances of the worm on different computers communicate with each other in order to optimize infection. The Warhol paper states, however, that no coordinated worm has ever been created. This paper proposes the first design for a worm which utilizes efficient communication between worm instances for an optimal infection ...
10:09 < kanzure> ... strategy."
10:09 < kanzure> hmm so there would have to be some infection planning routine and some way to coordinate this plan with already infected targets
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10:10 < fenn> keep reading
10:11 < kanzure> debatable "Also, it is simply wasteful for a worm instance to attempt to infect a system which has already been infected rather than choosing an uninfected host as a target."
10:11 < kanzure> (unless your worm defends itself from itsef)
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10:12 < fenn> that's basically the idea behind Curious Blue
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10:17 < fenn> the paper assumes that all hosts/nodes on the internet are homogenous, whereas backbone routers and personal computers are very different, both in network topology/bandwidth and the software they run
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10:18 < fenn> not surprising from a p2p software designer i guess
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10:20 < kanzure> heh at the end, kazaa only had 2.5 million nodes
10:20 < kanzure> whereas napster had 80 million :)
10:20 < kanzure> in just 3 years
10:21 < fenn> because napster had better content and momentum due to starting earlier
10:22 < fenn> after napster went down everyone switched to kazaa and other networks
10:22 < kanzure> 80 > 2 clearly not everyone heh
10:22 < fenn> in other words, napster went from 80 million to zero overnight
10:23 < kanzure> current state of file sharing is a little disappointing in comparison to that
10:23 < kanzure> and youtube is just a crux
10:24 < kanzure> wrong word. use an appropriate word.
10:24 < kanzure> *pick an appropriate word.
10:24 < fenn> files are shared now as huge discographies (for music) whereas in the napster days you would download one song at a time
10:24 < fenn> video sharing wasn't really a thing
10:25 < fenn> crutch*
10:25 < fenn> quux*
10:25 < kanzure> youtube links are still king of viral pretty much
10:25 < kanzure> tudou ain't got nothing on that
10:26 < kanzure> and magnet links suck. they should be links to a site that either gives you a magnet link or instructs you on how to install a magnet-link-compatible client.
10:27 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme
10:27 < fenn> i guess microsoft doesnt want to help illegal bittorrent use cases
10:27 < fenn> magnet is just a DHT key disguised as a url
10:28 < kanzure> most users do not have a client capable of making use of that magnet link
10:28 < fenn> really? why wouldn't a modern torrent client be able to use it?
10:28 < kanzure> whereas youtube links work for users that already have browsers
10:28 < kanzure> most users do not have a torrent client installed
10:28 < fenn> you can say the same thing . right
10:29 < fenn> hm. i remember when you had to download a plugin to play videos
10:29 < kanzure> obv. solution is to complain that magnet links aren't an onboarding scheme, which is certainly true...
10:30 < fenn> what's the system called that figures out what to do with different protocols in a url, like how does telnet get launched when you click a telnet://, or email client when you click mailto:
10:31 < kanzure> uri resolver?
10:32 < fenn> i dont think so
10:35 < fenn> i think it's called URL protocol handler (at least on windows)
10:36 < fenn> sorry for the urgly url http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb266527(v=vs.85).aspx
10:36 < fenn> .title
10:36 < yoleaux> Installing and Registering Protocol Handlers (Windows)
10:36 < kanzure> you might enjoy idling in #bitcoin-wizards (it's more academicy people-sitting-around-reading-papers-breaking-cryptography-schemes)
10:36 < fenn> meh
10:37 < fenn> i'll wait until i get a math coprocessor installed in my brain
10:37 < kanzure> they collectively know more than i do about p2p distributed hash tables and shit
10:37 < kanzure> (i hope)
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10:40 < fenn> Applications supporting Magnet links include μTorrent, aMule, BitComet, Bitflu, BitSpirit, BitTorrent, DC++, Deluge, FrostWire, gtk-gnutella, Installous (iOS app), I2P, KTorrent, MLDonkey, Morpheus, Qbittorrent, rTorrent, Shareaza, Tixati, Transmission, Tribler, Xtorrent, Free Download Manager[1] and Vuze.
10:40 < kanzure> hm.
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10:41 < fenn> often there are no .torrent links because the tracker is unknown (private tracker) or the tracker died/disappeared but the torrent is still being seeded
10:42 < kanzure> popcorntime is interesting but wont make youtube less sticky
10:43 < fenn> it annoys me that there isn't better data typing or lists of applications compatible with a) your hardware/software and b) the file you're trying to open
10:44 < fenn> like the MIME type lists web browsers used to allow you to edit
10:49  * fenn looks at /usr/share/mime/
10:56 < kanzure> guns n' crypto
10:58 < kanzure> funny how cathal became such a spook
10:58 < kanzure> (not that it's a bad thing)
10:59 < fenn> not sure how spamming the new url is supposed to prevent censorship? http://blog.popcorn-time.se/help-save-popcorn-time/
11:00 < kanzure> something like "people will clone the repositories and then there will at least be copies somewhere, maybe"
11:00 < kanzure> what a poorly written post
11:01 < fenn> no it was something about the DNS entry being removed
11:01 < fenn> and trying to climb in google rankings (as if there's any other "popcorn time"?)
11:01 < kanzure> dunno why they care so much about traffic
11:03 < fenn> am seeing getpopcornti.me popcorntime.io and popcorn-time.se so maybe there's some spoofing going on?
11:04 < fenn> "The program was abruptly taken down by its original developers on March 14, 2014, but was subsequently forked and taken over by other developers."
11:04 < kanzure> that explains the shitty blog post
11:05 < kanzure> what's the point of talking about curious blue in two separate channels
11:09 < fenn> who else is talking about curious blue?
11:09 < kanzure> i should fix their public logs
11:10 < kanzure> (wumpus and andy)
11:11 < kanzure> pfft
11:11 < kanzure> coordination is hard i can't even convince the other three fourths of rayhawk
11:12 < fenn> heath: what's ybit3?
11:13 < fenn> i totally forget how to connect to that other chat-like service with the weird interface
11:14 < kanzure> more specific pls
11:14 < kanzure> oh, see pm
--- Log opened Sun Oct 19 11:16:19 2014
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11:16 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | not intentionally unrepeatable
11:16 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Fri Jun  6 17:48:33 2014]
11:16 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
11:16 [ _0bitcount] [ docl_      ] [ juri_          ] [ snuffeluffegus] 
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11:16 [ Burn_     ] [ gnusha     ] [ paperbot       ] [ Urchin        ] 
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11:16 -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 77 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 77 normal]
11:16 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010
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11:17 < kanzure> hrm
11:17 < kanzure> hrm
11:18 < fenn> am guessing you only wanted one gnusha
11:18 < fenn> am guessing you only wanted one gnusha
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11:18 < fenn> 12:56 < kanzure> guns n' crypto
11:18 < fenn> 12:56 < kanzure> guns n' crypto
11:18 < fenn> gah wtf
11:18 < fenn> gah wtf
11:18  * fenn kicks syndaemon
11:18  * fenn kicks syndaemon
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11:19 < kanzure> good point
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11:19 < kanzure> back to non-duplicated logs http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-10-19.log
11:19 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2014-10-19.log
11:20 < chris_99> kanzure, have you used any python web crawlers per chance, Scrapy seems the main one, but it looks like you need to use Scrapyd to use it on multiple nodes, but i'm not sure how good that is
11:20 < kanzure> i have used and written many python crawler things. what do you need?
11:22 < chris_99> ok, so i'm just writing something using boto to spawn my ec2 instances, but i'm trying to find something that'll use say 10 of those nodes to do crawling and appropiate rate limiting
11:22 < kanzure> there's nothing that has a distributed crawling cluster out of the box quite yet
11:22 < chris_99> dammit
11:22 < kanzure> i suggest using something like celery as a task queue that each of your nodes blug pinto
11:22 < kanzure> *plug into
11:23 < chris_99> cheers, i'll look at that
11:23 < kanzure> there are also smaller implementations like aq(?)
11:23 < kanzure> ah, rq
11:24 < chris_99> would that also handle a hashtable/bloomfilter to prevent crawling the same url
11:24 < chris_99> twice
11:24 < kanzure> no, you would have to do that before adding a task into the queue
11:25 < kanzure> https://github.com/commoncrawl
11:26 < kanzure> there's probably a docker container somewhere that has this already
11:27 < kanzure> naive implementation is a check before jobs.add() where you just check against urls in the database that have already been crawled..
11:28 < chris_99> the problem is, if each node is spidering separately, they could encounter the same url, to check that from a DB all the time would be problematic
11:29 < kanzure> queries are pretty cheap
11:30 < chris_99> i was looking at http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/how-to-crawl-a-quarter-billion-webpages-in-40-hours/
11:30 < chris_99> which was interesting
11:30 < chris_99> but no source
11:30 < kanzure> michael nielsen is highly responsive by email
11:30 < chris_99> ooh
11:30 < chris_99> i'll shoot an email
11:30 < chris_99> then
11:30 < chris_99> cheers
11:30 < fenn> chris_99: maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grub_(search_engine) ?
11:30 < kanzure> heh grub is still around?
11:30 < fenn> no
11:31 < fenn> presumably you can still find the source code somewhere
11:31 < kanzure> i'm not convinced that search gains anything from decentralized architecture
11:32 < kanzure> "The client indexes the URLs and send them back to the main grub server in a highly compressed form."
11:32 < kanzure> how is that distributed
11:32 < fenn> if hosts are rate limiting you based on ip the indexing goes N times faster with N crawlers
11:33 < fenn> it's a distributed crawler, not a distributed search engine
11:33 < kanzure> bitcoinization has been creating lots of bullshit side-effects like any of the thoughts that created this catastrophe of a thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jm1qh/were_entering_the_era_of_decentralisation_ie/
11:34 < kanzure> good point
11:34 < kanzure> "distributed crawler" should really just be "we're running a proxy network, yo"
11:35 < fenn> that was my original idea; just use wget and set up proxies
11:35 < kanzure> what's wrong with that idea?
11:35 < fenn> but then you have to figure out how to redirect wget to different proxies
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11:35 < kanzure> that's also what i said for a paper network (install proxies on undergrad phones etc)
11:35 < kanzure> wget itself is not necessary of course
11:35 < fenn> it's fine for sequential entries like foo.com/get?resource=123
11:36 < kanzure> import requests; requests.get(url, proxies={"http": some_picked_proxy})
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11:37 < fenn> this assumes you know the urls you want to download ahead of time
11:37 < kanzure> ahead of time? why
11:37 < fenn> in order to spread them evenly across your proxies
11:38 < fenn> otherwise you end up writing a whole queing system
11:38 < kanzure> load balancing should still work anyway
11:38 < kanzure> that sorta software already exists like haproxy/nginx/whatever
11:38 < fenn> queueueing
11:38 < kanzure> "what do you mean round robin isn't sufficient?"
11:39 < fenn> load balancing is the inverse
11:39 < kanzure> were you around to see https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot/blob/master/paperbot/orchestrate.py#L62
11:40 < fenn> iirc that never worked right
11:40 < kanzure> still needs moar unit tests
11:40 < kanzure> it was recently written (august?)
11:40 < fenn> oh, then no
11:41 < kanzure> i wanted to clean up paperbot's source code
11:41 < kanzure> and eventually get around to more testing
11:41 < fenn> why does it still do libgen/scimag/get?
11:41 < kanzure> less coupling, more separation of concerns, ..
11:41 < kanzure> because libgen has content and uploading when possible is only friendly?
11:42 < fenn> but downloading from libgen sucks for the user
11:42 < fenn> and it seems to fail most of the time
11:42 < kanzure> yeah i'm not sure what the failure modes are exactly
11:42 < fenn> maybe i dont understand the "has content" part
11:43 < kanzure> libgen scimag has some content that others have put there by doi number
11:46 < kanzure> i should weaken that statement and say instead:
11:46 < kanzure> libgen scimag sometimes maybe has some stuff but nobody really knows
11:46 < chris_99> haha no luck kanzure "Nothing has changed from my post: I’m not releasing it."
11:46 < kanzure> but he replied!
11:46 < chris_99> mmm
11:46 < kanzure> so there's that
11:49 < fenn> i'm glad to see that http://commoncrawl.org exists
11:50 < fenn> Common Crawl corpus contains petabytes of data collected over the last 7 years. It contains raw web page data, extracted metadata and text extractions.
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11:54 < kanzure> "also it includes your grandmother's recipe for apple pie"
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11:58 < DonnchaC_> It might be interesting to have a modular browser addon to allow users to proxy requests through their own system.
11:59 < kanzure> most browsers already allow users to specify a proxy
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12:00 < DonnchaC_> Sorry I'm not explaining it well. Have an addon which would allow a web service to proxy its requests/crawls through the browsers of clients who are online
12:00 < kanzure> i think a mobile phone app would be better because then at least you are not intentionally interfering with a user's browsing habits
12:01 < fenn> i think that's called TOR
12:01 < DonnchaC_> For example, for paperbot, people who are in universities could have the addon, opt-in to something like paperbot and occasionaly have their browser retrieve data in the background.
12:01 < kanzure> tor isn't necessary for that architecture
12:01 < kanzure> DonnchaC_: again i think they would be better off not using a browser plugin for that. instead it should be a service/background app on their phone.
12:01 < kanzure> and also, it should selectively limit its operation when the phone user is phoning or browsing or w/e
12:02 < fenn> desktops/laptops need no such limitation
12:02 < DonnchaC_> kanzure: Yes, phones are probably a good option.
12:02 < kanzure> i just don't see the advantage of tying it into a browser
12:02 < kanzure> except for distribution i guess. (but phones have that covered in other ways)
12:03 < DonnchaC_> Just thats its easy for users to install, they can do background tasks when the user is necessarily online.
12:03 < DonnchaC_> It would be difficult to distingush crawls from regular users browsing, as it is regular users
12:04 < kanzure> so if it is crawls that you are aiming for then i think the system architecture should be different
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12:04 < kanzure> "crawling all academic publishers only once/for updates and being done for it" requires different design than "people are randomly asking the system to fetch various pdfs somewhere"
12:04 < fenn> i think it's both crawling and serving requests that the user can't access (but another user can)
12:05 < kanzure> *and being done with it
12:06 < fenn> the crawler is just another user basically
12:07 < kanzure> biggest problem i still have is that, even if you have the loot of a few million pdfs, can't do much with it re: distribution, in a safe manner
12:07 < fenn> if a user decides "journal of dentistry" is important to download, they just crawl it themselves, and the whole network benefits from that data
12:07 < kanzure> in a way that doesn't rely on everyone not seeding it
12:08 < fenn> when another user tries to download 'journal of dentistry: volume 23' it downloads from the other user, not from the publisher
12:08 < kanzure> i don't think even freenet really solves that
12:09 < fenn> freenet doesn't provide access to the internet
12:09 < kanzure> i'm not talking about internet access
12:09 < fenn> i guess you could use freenet as a backend to store the files
12:09 < kanzure> you can't just expect people to store a few hundred gig of pdfs without someone getting arrested
12:10 < kanzure> (unless your system is designed right)
12:10 < fenn> nobody's storing any number of gigs (unless they want to)
12:10 < kanzure> they are storing certain papers, though
12:10 < fenn> yes
12:10 < kanzure> and if you just route a request to an http server on their ip address, case closed...
12:10 < fenn> explain "case closed"
12:10 < kanzure> it means people are going to be busted
12:11 < fenn> i dont see any way around that besides tor
12:11 < fenn> but i also dont think the publishers are smart enough or persistent enough to track down a significant number of ip addresses and try to sue people
12:12 < kanzure> tor still has a which-user-will-actually-store-this-crap problem
12:12 < fenn> yes but you don't know who you're downloading from
12:12 < fenn> afaik it's not illegal to run a tor exit node
12:13 < fenn> anyway tor is slow and i presume we would actually want a complete copy of academia
12:14 < fenn> bittorrent shows you the IP of who you're downloading from and it seems nobody cares
12:14 < kanzure> i really hate the maidsafe/fiecoin/storj people for proposing such broken implementations
12:14 < kanzure> and then stealing everyone's money
12:14 < fenn> i have no idea what that is
12:14 < kanzure> "distributed file storage! blockchains of files are the future!"
12:14 < kanzure> "our system is immune to all possible cryptographic attacks because i want your money"
12:15 < fenn> "Users providing storage space to the network earn Safecoin, a digital currency that can be used to store information on the network." hmm okay
12:15 < kanzure> skip all the marketing horse shit
12:15 < kanzure> it's just a gish gallop attack on people who value their time
12:16 < kanzure> instead go straight to the criticism:
12:16 < kanzure> https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awpsoftware.net+storj&oq=site%3Awpsoftware.net+storj
12:16 < kanzure> https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=off&q=site%3Awpsoftware.net+filecoin&oq=site%3Awpsoftware.net+filecoin
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12:16 < kanzure> https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=off&q=site%3Awpsoftware.net+maidsafe&oq=site%3Awpsoftware.net+maidsafe
12:17 < fenn> when you remove your disk from the network, are your files still accessible from elsewhere?
12:17 < juri_> fenn is alive again?
12:17 < fenn> i am undead
12:18 < juri_> good to hear.
12:19 < fenn> hah "Someone needs to redo The Producers for modern times. It should be about developer and a trader duo that due to some crazy futures contract have to make their altcoin become worthless."
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12:23 < fenn> your tail has grown
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12:23 < kanzure> i lied?
12:24  * fenn points at juri__ 
12:24 < kanzure> fenn: so none of those implementations work. the criticism in those irc logs are good and worth reading.
12:24 < fenn> sounds like work
12:24 < kanzure> at minimum they are worth reading because it's somewhat educational for how to attack shitty cryptosystem proposals
12:24 < fenn> i hate cryptography
12:25 < fenn> i mean, i like using it, just not thinking about it
12:25 < kanzure> go on
12:25 < fenn> well you see it's hard to think about, almost by definition
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12:26 < fenn> but all that effort goes nowhere because you just end up with whatever you started with
12:26 < kanzure> as in "can't create security out of insecurity" ?
12:28 < fenn> more like building a fence around a barn yard with no animals in it
12:28 < dingo> rlogin 1984.ws :)
12:28 < kanzure> i wonder if "everyone equally stores/shares a copy of the 'illegal' data" is a practical legal defense
12:29 < kanzure> Connection closed by 88.80.6.213
12:29 < fenn> juries have been all over the place on complex technical computer issues like this
12:29 < dingo> did you do ssh? i said rlogin :) hehe i'll fix the ssh thanks
12:30 < kanzure> i did use rogin
12:30 < kanzure> rlogin
12:30 < kanzure> apparently rlogin is symlinked to ssh on my system
12:30 < dingo> wow, really? yeah, it must be
12:30 < fenn> see for example the weev trial; most computer literate people would assume a http url on the public internet is fair game
12:30 < dingo> freenet philosophy is nobody owns a full part of any file
12:31 < dingo> and you can't decrypt the data stored on your disk
12:31 < fenn> so it's hard to predict how they will decide in advance
12:32 < fenn> dingo: you meant to say telnet 1984.ws
12:32 < dingo> well its telnet, ssh, and rlogin
12:32 < dingo> and you're using kitty i see
12:33 < fenn> how does that work
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12:34 < dingo> that i know you're using kitty?
12:34 < fenn> right
12:34 < dingo> telnet.py 629 recv SB: XDISPLOC IS array('c', 'kitty:0')
12:35 < fenn> oh its an x display
12:35 < dingo> telnet option negotiation
12:36 < fenn> i couldnt figure out how zeroconf dns info would get through my router
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12:39 < kanzure> hmph
12:43 < fenn> i can't read any of those banner texts
12:43 < kanzure> you and your color scheme overrides
12:44 < fenn> it looks like "GRST TEN"
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12:44 < fenn> or maybe a super mario bros level (the one with the blob trees and clouds)
12:51 < kanzure> heh this is worse than that ruby shit :)
12:51 < dingo> < fenn> it looks like "GRST TEN"
12:51 < dingo> "LAST TEN" hehe
12:51 < dingo> very close
13:00 < fenn> what's the banner on the 'one liners' page?
13:01 < dingo> "wall"
13:02 < fenn> maybe "wauu"
13:02 < dingo> don't tell hellbeard that, he made it :)
13:03 < fenn> it would make a good side scroller level
13:03 < fenn> the secret bonus room is inside the "a"
13:03 < dingo> hellbeard aka xzip, http://bbs.ninja/%7Exzippo/
13:04 < fenn> so apparently demoscene is still popular in finland
13:05 < dingo> indeed, and sweden, and holland
13:05 < dingo> they don't work so hard over there
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13:05 < fenn> i think there is just a higher proportion of nerds
13:05 < fenn> i am biased tho
13:06 < dingo> someone was explaining, in sweden i think, in the 80's, they had a subsidy for buying home computers, and it just about bought exactly a commadore 64 or something
13:07 < dingo> or spectrum zx
13:07 < fenn> heh active thread from 2004 with 23k replies http://www.pouet.net/bbs.php
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13:11 < kanzure> hmm that's more than the altcoins https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0;sort=replies;desc
13:11 < kanzure> (8k replies)
13:13 < dingo> the demoscene parties in europe are huge... thousands of people
13:13 < dingo> thats sortof what its all about, make a demo under time restriction with pizza and beer and friends, have it displayed on a big screen in front of a big crowd, people clapping or cheering for it
13:14 < dingo> theres no such thing like it in america
13:14 < dingo> http://www.kansasfest.org/ is the most retro-computer festival there is, and most of the folk are over 60 years old, not so exciting
13:16 < dingo> kanzure is at a disadvatnage if he's trying to get a high score on tetris --- the server is hosted in sweden, all of the top scorers are from sweden :)
13:17 < kanzure> NO LIMITS
13:17 < kanzure> REMEMBER THE ALAMO
13:17 < kanzure> and such
13:19 < heath> fenn: ybit3 is mostly for logging channels that i'm not active in
13:20  * heath gets back to packing
13:24 < fenn> i'm impressed http://reho.st/gif/6b8355069d726501117563fc884d62785945ea31.gif
13:25 < kanzure> 9th place, good enough for me
13:25 < kanzure> fun fact: 90% of the lifespan of every hplusroadmapper is spent packing
13:26 < kanzure> only 0.5% of their lifespan is spent unpacking
13:26 < fenn> pack-ratting
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13:37 < juri_> kanzure: touché. ;)
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13:41 < kanzure> ?
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14:00 < fenn> kjskjskjs: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/robots/thumb/horror_gears.jpg
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14:15 < kanzure> http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/10/14/you-can-turn-a-2000-shipping-container-into-an-epic-off-grid-home/
14:15 < kanzure> meh nevermind
14:16 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10255840701479214?journalCode=gcmb20
14:16 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/31a6d978d3624c46650a1bb45220713.txt
14:20 < drethelin> why off the grid
14:20 < fenn> because squares are for squares
14:21 < drethelin> also most of thosoe homes are made out of 2-4 shipping containers
14:22 < kanzure> i said nevermind god damn it why doesn't anyone isten
14:22 < kanzure> *listen
14:23 < kanzure> http://saltfarmtexel.com/ "SaltFarmTexel is specialized in evaluating the salt tolerance of conventional crops and halophytes, large-scale screening of possible salt tolerant cultivars, and development of saline agricultural practises. By facilitating the development and introduction of saline crops, SaltFarmTexel wants to contribute to the development of saline agriculture as a working concept. With over 1 billion hectares of salinized soil ...
14:23 < fenn> because the internet has no delete button
14:23 < kanzure> ... worldwide, and rising, the potential is enormous. By cultivating saline crops, saline soils can be seen as an opportunity to increase agricultural production."
14:23 < kanzure> this is an unsolved problem?
14:23 < kanzure> the salt crop stuff, not the delete button
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14:24 < fenn> the problem is salty soils are usually in places with limited rainfall in the first place (hence the salt accumulation)
14:24 < drethelin> I saw that salt farm thing the other day
14:24 < drethelin> it seems like a neat idea
14:24 < drethelin> Maybe we need to learn to cultivate edible cacti
14:24 < fenn> there has been a lot of genetic modification work on rice and other grains to increase salt tolerance
14:25 < kanzure> what about some salt-hungry bacteria
14:25 < fenn> conservation of matter
14:26 < fenn> unless you figured out biological cold fusion
14:26 < kanzure> presumably bacteria is easier to deal with than just salt?
14:26 < fenn> you might as well have said "anyone try molecular nanotech?"
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14:27 < drethelin> Fenn: conservation of matter doesn't stop regular desalinization
14:27 < kanzure> http://2013.igem.org/Team:CSU_Fort_Collins
14:27 < drethelin> we don't need to ANNIHILATE the salt
14:28 < drethelin> just to concentrate it in a way that's relatively cheap to seperate
14:28 < fenn> most (all?) bacteria rely on a strong ion gradient across the cell membrane to run their enzymes; concentrating salt inside the cell would interfere with this, unless you had some specialized organelle to store salt in
14:28 < drethelin> like that saltfarm thing was talking about how the salt mostly ends up in the leaves
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14:31 < fenn> stupid biologists.. at least tell us how MUCH salt it removed
14:31 < fenn> "a significant amount"
14:32 < fenn> whatever
14:33 < kanzure> sounds like gradstudentbot's handywork
14:33 < fenn> "Most halophilic and all halotolerant organisms expend energy to exclude salt from their cytoplasm to avoid protein aggregation"
14:37 < fenn> if you get enough rain it will wash the salt out
14:38 < fenn> the problem is people try to water crops with groundwater and over time the salt builds up
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14:43 < fenn> potential solution to the fresh water problem: http://challenge-old.bfi-internal.org/application_summary/51
14:44 < fenn> small diameter high speed maglev transport in vacuum
14:45 < fenn> get it to orbital velocity and you don't even need the mag-lev
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14:56 < kanzure> hrmm
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15:20 < kanzure> dingo: any thoughts on integrating https://github.com/kanzure/modelo with sqlalchemy (particularly for querying)?
15:21 < kanzure> i assume it might be some separate component and not a member method/extension of Model.
15:32 < dingo> i don't know enough about sqlalchemy to have an opinion on it, sorry. But I have exactly the same thoughts as you -- regarding querying, like SubModel.find(where...string..is..in..something,or..int..le..10)
15:33 < dingo> some time ago i developed some pile of shit query system that didn't get very far, but I very much want to provide modelling, and effecient lookups, without tying to a specific provider (like mongo)
15:33 < dingo> i've settled for using sqlitedict and baking my own indicies/lookups for now (in the bbs, anyway)
15:34 < dingo> just because sqlitedict stores dictionaries naturally
15:34 < dingo> but it would be nice to use underlying sqlite-optimied queries
15:35 < dingo> but then not require sql
15:35 < fenn> are you talking about ORM?
15:35 < dingo> sqlalchemy is probably it, i just hestitate, i met one of the forming authors, mark ramm, who also authored a book on sqlalchemy, and he swears it off as, in retrospect, not such a well-designed concept
15:36 < dingo> yeah, something like ORM and modelling
15:37 < kanzure> sqlalchemy is pretty well designed compared to the other lack of options
15:38 < kanzure> although storm might be better tested overall https://storm.canonical.com/
15:39 < dingo> yeah i bumped into storm once before in my search, i liked storm from first look
15:39 < dingo> person = store.find(Person, Person.name == u"Tom Thomas").one()
15:39 < dingo> this looks pretty nice
15:39 < kanzure> i doubt that mark was complaining about sqlalchemy's user-facing api
15:40 < dingo> i don't know why i hate raq SQL so much, i don't know what did it to me, i think my only argument is against what i call the "split horizon" development model -- as you grow your software, you have to go back and forth, writing two languages, and modelling your data in two places
15:40 < dingo> hate raw sql, rather
15:41 < dingo> i would very much like to just add a field to a class, and not care about it
15:41 < kanzure> of course. orms have offered this for a while (modulo schema migrations).
15:41 < kanzure> (for which i recommend alembic)
15:42 < kanzure> natural mode of using sqlalchemy is coupling your models to sqlalchemy
15:42 < dingo> yeah, i just haven't had a "I love this!" feeling using any ORM yet, but i haven't tried in a while now, i've been doing NOSQL-like stuff for a while -- if theres any performance/query i want, I just "bake" a pre-prepared lookup table for it
15:42 < kanzure> which is unfortunate for when you have no interest in doing sql querying things
15:43 < dingo> somebody needs to force me to do boring-ass typical business data programming.. i've always been paid to do atypical, either very large scale, or "it all fits in memory", and i been programming to the extremes, not the general purpose
15:44 < kanzure> iirc sqlalchemy does not have a pure-python storage backend. there's sqlite://:memory: but that's still sqlite...
15:44 < fenn> define typical
15:44 < dingo> most of my familiarity with ORM is as an ops guy for when they go wrong and performance takes a shit and i'm unlayering it from the bottom up, and its always beeen unhealthy
15:44 < dingo> typical like all of these examples -- employee tables, sales figures, boring ass business data
15:45 < kanzure> shrug, just spend 5 minutes looking at https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/db/models/
15:45 < kanzure> you'l get like 80% of what you need
15:45 < fenn> why would anyone write software that's used as an example in a book - it's been done a million times already
15:45 < dingo> i was very impressed with ZODB about 10 years ago, it doesn't scale terribly well -- but I liked a "pure object-oriented database"
15:46 < fenn> OODB's have gone out of fashion though
15:46 < kanzure> fenn: most of these companies are using piles of sqlalchemy/django/activerecord models for their internal business stuff
15:46 < kanzure> i don't know if that's what you're asking though
15:47 < kanzure> argh who writes this crap? "You might have removed all your emotions, but I reckon right down deep in your DNA there's one little spark left. And that's fear."
15:48 < fenn> kirk/spock romance novelists?
15:49 < kanzure> no, i'm trying doctor who this weekend
15:49 < fenn> ugh don't bother
15:49 < dingo> do i gather modelo is attempting to be only a small, lightweight implementation of something like django's orm, without django? if so, i fully support it
15:49 < fenn> i liked Stargate Universe - the main character reminds me of someone
15:49 < kanzure> modelo is a fork of d3vz3r0's hipster
15:50 < dingo> i look at this document and go "yeah this would be fine, I could probably use this... but... i don't want to throw django into the heap, ugh"
15:50 < kanzure> right
15:50 < dingo> yeah i can tell, its very familiar
15:50 < kanzure> mind you, it's a separate implementation
15:51 < dingo> i also have some issues with traits, but, i understand its necessary for an ORM, i just, ugh!
15:51 < kanzure> this is traitlets
15:51 < kanzure> not traits
15:51 < dingo> yeah i noticed, which is nice, real traits is overkill
15:51 < dingo> i see traits as "the un-pythonic @property implementation"
15:51 < kanzure> d4de^^: what was your argument against using sqlalchemy directly?
15:52 < kanzure> hm he's dead
15:53 < dingo> i been off phoenix for a while decompressing, i begin working for d3vz3r0 tomorrow actually
15:53 < kanzure> ah good
15:53 < dingo> theres lots of good improvements (mostly @signalpillar) i should contribute into your modelo if i ever find time
15:53 < kanzure> open up some issues with the rough outlines?
15:54 < kanzure> "the rest is just implementation detail" :p
15:57 < kanzure> on a related note,
15:58 < kanzure> https://github.com/dahlia/awesome-sqlalchemy
16:07 < dingo> anyway if i make the time i'll try to use modelo for storing the messages on my bbs and grow into it, maybe sqlalchemy over sqlite or something, i don't want to re-implement Model, but i want to use something like it
16:07 < dingo> i was just going to hand-code a simple .create and .to_dict and go from there
16:08 < kanzure> sqlalchemy is a thing that sits above sqlite
16:11 < dingo> right
16:22 < kanzure> fenn: so both versions of doctor who are ugh?
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16:51 < fenn> there are like 14 versions
16:52 < fenn> there have been a few interesting ideas in the 50 years it's been on, but that's not a very good record
16:57 < kanzure> hm okay
16:58 < fenn> don't take my word for it, watch some random episode and decide for yourself
16:58 < fenn> you can't really start at the beginning anyway
16:58 < kanzure> s2e5 the girl in the fireplace was okay
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17:04 < fenn> He called it a "thought-provoking piece", and wrote that episodes like this could not be broadcast every week since it "would be too taxing on the average viewer's brain"
17:05 < dingo> Blake's 7 :)
17:05 < dingo> not taxing at all, that one
17:05 < dingo> just stupid silly low-budget sci-fi
17:09 < kanzure> Billy Bob Brumley and Risto M. Hakala. Cache-timing template attacks. In Mitsuru Matsui, editor, Advances in Cryptology ASIACRYPT 2009, volume 5912 of Lecture Notes in Computer Science, pages 667–684. Springer-Verlag, 2009.
17:11 < fenn> "Ultimately, the one force the rebels could not overcome proved to be the BBC's long-standing apathy towards science fiction."
17:15 < dingo> hehe
17:16 < justanotheruser> who is a good vps provider? I like AWS, but not their price
17:16 < dingo> joyent if you like solaris :)
17:17 < justanotheruser> wat
17:17 < dingo> oh looks like they do linux, too
17:17 < justanotheruser> oh ok
17:17 < justanotheruser> wat
17:18 < kanzure> i wonder if bitcoin was easier to explain if bad ideas like this would never be written at all http://jpkoning.blogspot.com/2014/10/fedcoin.html?m=1
17:18 < justanotheruser> joylent seems to be a soylent producer...
17:18 < kanzure> i was talking with someone the other day that was entirely *offended* by the mere concept that implementation details matter at all
17:19 < dingo> joyent, not joylent :)
17:19 < justanotheruser> oh
17:19 < justanotheruser> ohhhh
17:19 < fenn> this person has no basic understanding of economics
17:19 < kanzure> dreamhost has been doing some cheapo things lately
17:19 < kanzure> fenn: well yes besides that... heh.
17:20 < kanzure> fenn: bad ideas like this are going to continue to get traction "because blockchainz"
17:20 < fenn> also no understanding of bitcoin, apparently.
17:21 < kanzure> double threat
17:21 < dingo> digital ocean is also crap but perhaps cheaper than AWS
17:21 < justanotheruser> dingo: seems to be about 1.5 times the price of AWS
17:22 < kanzure> oops i meant digital ocean not dreamhost
17:22 < kanzure> unfortunately i can't purge things like dreamhost from my memory
17:25 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: i'm sure kjskjskjs would like to hear about memristor stalking stuff
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17:26 < fenn> what's wrong with dreamhost?
17:27 < kanzure> shared hosting went the way of the dinosaur like a decade ago
17:27 < fenn> i thought it was VPS
17:28 < kanzure> perhaps recently? haven't looked
17:29 < jrayhawk_> kjskjskjs: there's an HP labs memristor guy sitting across a table from me; let me know if I should ask things.
17:31 < fenn> do memristors exist
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17:31 < fenn> oh shit sorry no philosophy
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17:35 < fenn> In 2013, Crossbar introduced an RRAM prototype as a chip about the size of a postage stamp that could store 1 TB of data. In August 2013, the company claimed that large-scale production of their RRAM chips was scheduled for 2015.
17:35 < fenn> is this common knowledge?
17:36 < kanzure> there was a news blitz but the level of reality was unknown
17:36 < kanzure> or not easy to determine
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17:37 < fenn> is there _any_ consumer product incorporating one of the various technologies claimed to be a type of memristor?
17:38 < fenn> something one could actually buy without signing an NDA
17:40 < dingo> i always read articles about the famed memresistor, i remember some big company like samsung saying they made a breakthrough in the past year
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17:53 < heath> 17:19 < kanzure> digital ocean has been doing some cheapo things lately
17:53 < heath> kanzure: example?
17:53 < kanzure> wasn't it a $10/mo droplet?
17:53 < dingo> VPS at $5/mo or something i heard at some point
17:53 < dingo> (probably a sale period)
17:53 < heath> $5/droplet still
17:53 < heath> the default is $10 iirc
17:55 < kanzure> fenn: suppose you wanted to prevent double spending but you also wanted to allow for multiple lightyears of distance of coverage by your anti-replay oracle. how could this be done?
17:56 < kanzure> obviously, you can double spend ahead of time on either end of a light-year-distance-thing simultaneously, and then over a few years it would get resolved, but this is useless for payments because you need relatively quick "confirmations" across most of the nodes.
17:57 < fenn> um, interstellar trade is meaningless without FTL?
17:57 < kanzure> is it?
17:57 < fenn> yes
17:58 < kanzure> okay, so you move a lightyear away. you want your money with you. what's wrong with this concept?
17:58 < fenn> the first part
17:58 < kanzure> let's, for the moment, assume that eventually there will be people separated by great distances.
18:01 < fenn> what does the money represent
18:01 < kanzure> some number in a database
18:02 < kanzure> something approximating a database heh
18:04 < fenn> in a normal economy, money represents some value you've provided for someone
18:06 < fenn> in an interstellar "economy" the value you can provide is limited to pure serialized information
18:06 < fenn> astronomical measurements for example would be useful
18:09 < kanzure> commentary: http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2014-10-19.log
18:14 < fenn> it would take a long time to agree on a price for anything
18:15 < fenn> if you just send the product blindly expecting a return it causes trouble
18:15 < kanzure> that may be a non-issue... price is currently negotiated independent of confirmation time anyway. so why would it change?
18:16 < kanzure> oh, for interstellar payments + shipping. hrm.
18:16 < fenn> no shipping, this is an information-only product
18:17 < fenn> (it may be feasible to send nanotech)
18:17 < kanzure> i was thinking of just the case of moving your money with you, not paying anyone in particular. but now i don't know.
18:17 < kanzure> maybe you could make up some proof that you have locked your money in the local lightsphere, and then "unlock" it in the other one.
18:19 < fenn> you could send it to a local escrow agent who tell his partner on alpha centauri to forward alphacoins to your seller
18:20 < kanzure> you could transport data ahead of time in some format where local payments would unlock the data
18:20 < fenn> problem is alpha escrow services gets screwed when the exchange rate changes
18:20 < kanzure> hm so you would route the money around to in-between people
18:22 < fenn> there is no 'ahead of time'
18:22 < fenn> unless you want to haggle over price for decades
18:22 < kanzure> ahead of time as in, your customers don't exist until you send the first data beam, where you don't know if they want to buy any of it anyway, but you send it anyway
18:23 < fenn> ok
18:23 < kanzure> probably not a great use of limited bandwidth but hey
18:23 < fenn> you are back to barter
18:23 < fenn> what could the customer offer in return that would be useful?
18:24 < kanzure> well, in that scenario i described, they coud receive "local" payments at wherever they beamed the information to. they still have the problem of getting any of that money on their end where they originated the signal from.
18:24 < kanzure> surely one of those asshole scifi authors figured this out already, what does orion's arm have to say about this
18:25 < kanzure> http://orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oaeg-front
18:25 < fenn> most of those asshole scifi authors just made up some FTL space drive
18:25 < kanzure> those jerks
18:25 < fenn> it's the universe's fault really
18:26 < kanzure> how do you figure that
18:26 < fenn> have you seen the size of our radio transmissions light sphere compared to the milky way?
18:26 < kanzure> diagrams of
18:26 < fenn> http://www.themarysue.com/human-radio-broadcasts/
18:27 < kanzure> damn it they took the lazy road http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/537285c1964e8
18:27 < kanzure> "Archaic term for cryptographic currency. Payment by electronic means where the seller is guaranteed payment, but the buyer can remain anonymous. First established in Information Age Old Earth. Analogous transactions are still used in various forms across the Known Net, especially in the Cyberian network. Alternative terms include electronic money, e-cash, cybercash, and CRYP."
18:27 < kanzure> well, okay... but. that's underspecified.
18:29 < kanzure> "In 2038 technology changed the face of commerce yet again. With the development and distribution of comm-gauge wormholes the stars were accessible once more."
18:29 < kanzure> argh :(
18:29 < fenn> well.. that is theoretically possible
18:30 < fenn> it's also basically time travel though
18:30 < kanzure> http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/485a95009288f " You need to have long-lived organisations on both ends, so that the recipient will be there once the trade is done."
18:36 < fenn> kanzure: consider what alien bitcoins might be worth
18:36 < fenn> it's basically an altcoin nobody knows about right?
18:37 < fenn> but you can't even spend it if you wanted to
18:37 < justanotheruser> 20:31 < fenn> oh shit sorry no philosophy
18:37 < justanotheruser> i jest
18:37 < heath> dfdrecommended videos to download for listening on the road tomorrow?
18:38 < heath> s/dfdrecommended/recommended
18:39 < kanzure> heath: if you feel like bitcoin stuff there's letstalkbitcoin but it gets on my nerves pretty fast
18:39 < kanzure> heath: you might be able to convince faceface to tell you which ones are ok
18:39 < fenn> heath: Solve for X - Neal Stephenson on getting big stuff done  youtube.com/watch?v=TE0n_5qPmRM
18:41 < kanzure> i could spend it if there is local merchant adoption (also, if spending it/accepting it would be safe from attacks like "really the patron just paid himself on the other side of the galaxy by arranging it before he transacted at my shop")
18:41 < fenn> heath: tim_minchin_storm_atheist_poetry youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
18:43 < fenn> i'm not much of a podcast person i guess
18:45 < kanzure> looks like orion's arm migrated to a forum from their mailing lists
18:45 < kanzure> http://www.orionsarm.com/forum/
18:45 < kanzure> and now it's dead
18:45 < heath> fenn: neat, i've watched these before, but couldn't hurt, plus i don't think alex has seen them
18:48 < heath> alternatively, "gerudo valley 10 hours - zelda ocarina of time" might last the entire trip
18:48 < fenn> heh
18:48 < fenn> final fantasy VII soundtrack
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18:49 < heath> kanzure: for btc, i have "Andreas M. Antonopoulos educates Senate of Canada about Bitcoin (Oct 8, ENG)" and "CounterParty and the Asset Revolution with Chris DeRose at Coins in the Kingdom 2014" in the queue
18:50 < kanzure> alright
18:51 < fenn> CCC talks maybe
18:52 < fenn> writing_a_thumbdrive_from_scratch youtube.com/watch?v=ijyAwxH_iok
18:54 < fenn> .title youtube.com/watch?v=qZtkANvDxZA
18:54 < yoleaux> 29C3: Writing a Thumbdrive from Scratch (EN) - YouTube
18:55 < nmz787> why not just make a bacteria that rather than storing salt in an organelle, precipitates it as some other mineral... something that incorporates CO2 would be a hit
18:55 < fenn> what do you do with the anion
18:56 < fenn> or does it just release carbon tetrachloride into the air
18:56 < nmz787> find some insoluble precipitate for that too
18:57 < fenn> chlorine gas maybe
18:57 < nmz787> make some chlorine radical that also purifies the water in addition to desalinating and sequestering carbon
18:57 < fenn> lol ok
18:58 < nmz787> 1-upping the KFC double-down with a triple-down-bacteria
18:58 < fenn> it just makes tiny pressurized gas cylinders out of diamond
18:58 < nmz787> :D
18:58 < fenn> also, it uses zero point energy
18:58 < nmz787> oh come on now!
19:00 < nmz787> obviously it would be cold fusion.
19:00 < fenn> already discussed that
19:01  * nmz787 is always late
19:02 < kanzure> memristor comment in 3.. 2...
19:02 < fenn> perhaps you can help kanzure figure out how to sell bifrost to the antareans
19:02 < nmz787> coconut seltzer + maple syrup + half-n-half == italian cream soda
19:04 < justanotheruser> kanzure: do you think it would be easier to define a synthesis in a lisp like language rather than xml?
19:04 < kanzure> justanotheruser: https://www.transcriptic.com/platform/
19:05 < fenn> hmm 550 light years is too far. and the reptilians from sirius B are already here. so that leaves not much: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Objects_within_10_ly_of_Earth
19:05 < justanotheruser> kanzure: oh wow, thats like exactly what I want
19:06 < nmz787> is lisp good?
19:06 < justanotheruser> This example costs $2.38 to run
19:06 < nmz787> this CAD language is based on lisp and I have to learn it
19:06 < nmz787> ,wik SKILL
19:06 < nmz787> .wik SKILL
19:06 < yoleaux> "SKILL is a Lisp dialect used as a scripting language and PCell (parameterized cells) description language used in many EDA software suites by Cadence Design Systems (e.g. Cadence Allegro and Cadence Virtuoso). It was originally put forth in an IEEE paper in 1990." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKILL
19:07 < kanzure> allegro lisp? meh
19:07 < justanotheruser> nmz787: I like its elegance, but it gets tough to read after a while
19:07 < nmz787> i read Python was based on lisp
19:07 < kanzure> those companies are so backwards and stuck in ancient land
19:07 < kanzure> "boo hoo we can only figure out how to do bindings to one language"
19:07 < nmz787> kanzure: I wonder if you even know the bulk of it
19:07 < fenn> nmz787: that's like saying english is based on latin
19:07 < kanzure> "what the fuck is an api?"
19:07 < kanzure> "we have a dll but we'll fucking sue you if you use it"
19:08 < nmz787> their software is so unintuitive
19:08 < nmz787> fenn: just a fact from the lisp wiki page
19:09 < justanotheruser> kanzure: you know if they have any patent on this JSyONthesis?
19:09 < kanzure> nmz787: here you go learn you a lisp http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/lisp/LispTutorial.html
19:09 < kanzure> justanotheruser: their format is not the most innovative idea in the world at all, if they have a patent it's not defensible
19:10 < kanzure> i also think a more simplified api is possible
19:10 < kanzure> one where you don't have to type out json in python
19:10 < kanzure> what a terrible way to represent a program to control lab equipment... json? wtf
19:11 < fenn> principle of least power, or something
19:12 < nmz787> hrmm, well, that doesn't sound horrible if it benefits from the structure... but... idk maybe a python program that inherits from some abstract base class so there would be some common i/o methods
19:12 < kanzure> i'm not sure that protocols are really something translatable into json
19:12 < kanzure> often they contain new information and new programs that you have to run in your head and then execute
19:13 < kanzure> otherwise everyone would be perfect at running a protocol the first time (not just human error issues)
19:13 < kanzure> erm, nevermind, i'm conflating too many things (poorly specified protocols, human error, human interpretation, human execution)
19:13 < nmz787> json could refer to its own prev keys
19:14 < justanotheruser> kanzure: is this stuff only used for assays?
19:14 < kanzure> i think they also do molecular cloning and sequencing
19:14 < kanzure> and storage
19:15 < justanotheruser> why can't this be used to replace lab rats entirely?
19:16 < kanzure> lab rats are cheaper than $2/run
19:16 < justanotheruser> orly?
19:16 < kanzure> mightily distorted labor market
19:17 < fenn> no not really, but they were on sale so i bought ten
19:17 < justanotheruser> wait
19:17 < justanotheruser> When I say lab rats I don't mean literal lab rats
19:17 < justanotheruser> I mean grad students
19:17 < kanzure> i know
19:17 < justanotheruser> ok
19:17 < fenn> i know
19:17 < justanotheruser> ok
19:17 < kanzure> they use undergrads too
19:17 < kanzure> those are even cheaper
19:17 < justanotheruser> heh
19:17 < kanzure> and there's an endless flood of those
19:17 < kanzure> no, really
19:18 < justanotheruser> btw, where do you guys buy your literal lab rats?
19:18 < kanzure> postdocs with 15 years of experience go for like $40k/year what do you think a brainless undergrad goes for
19:18 < kanzure> jackson labs
19:18 < justanotheruser> lol
19:18 < justanotheruser> how do you know this
19:18 < kanzure> it is my job to know this
19:18 < justanotheruser> have you actually bought lab rats?
19:18 < kanzure> I AM KNOWER OF THINGS
19:18 < justanotheruser> I guess thats what a consultant does
19:19 < fenn> i still think it'd be cheaper to use transcriptic
19:19 < kanzure> so, jackson labs doesn't sell to non-academic groups
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19:19 < justanotheruser> lolwut
19:19 < justanotheruser> this is crazy
19:19 < nmz787> justanotheruser: i've looked into buying them when i was using them weekly
19:19 < kanzure> company policy yo
19:20 < fenn> otherwise you're paying some guy $40k/yr to babysit
19:20 < justanotheruser> they categorize the rats by the type of cancer they have
19:20 < kanzure> yes it's cheaper than paying a postdoc but not cheaper than not paying an undergrad
19:20 < nmz787> justanotheruser: not only cancer, they have rat libraries
19:20 < kanzure> i agree that if undergrads didn't price themselves incorrectly that robots would be cheaper
19:21 < kanzure> i also agree that transcriptic is already cheaper than a number of scenarios... especially extremely repetitive ones.
19:21 < fenn> i'm saying robots are cheaper already but people have a bad sense of cost of ownership
19:21 < justanotheruser> nmz787: you were using them weekly but you weren't buying them?
19:21 < justanotheruser> were you catching them in the wild?
19:22 < kanzure> purchasing department handles that
19:22 < kanzure> universities are just giant corporations in disguise
19:22 < fenn> (i mean cost of ownership of grad students...) maybe it's time for bed
19:23 < nmz787> justanotheruser: what kanzure said, school handled it
19:23 < justanotheruser> oh
19:23 < justanotheruser> so I need a university for this?
19:23 < nmz787> i think they were just run-of-the-mill balb-c or something
19:23 < nmz787> been a while
19:23 < justanotheruser> What if I ship it to mexico?
19:23 < nmz787> uni works great if you know how to use it to your advantage
19:23 < kanzure> justanotheruser: you have to get really creative without a university
19:23 < fenn> http://www.stockfreeimages.com/p1/rat-library.html
19:23 < nmz787> justanotheruser: you are in mexico?
19:23 < justanotheruser> nmz787: no, but I'm sure I could find a reshipper there
19:24 < nmz787> oh, that would probably make things harder
19:24 < nmz787> leaving the country might relax some things, but importing live animals seems like it'd be harder
19:24 < justanotheruser> Are there any animal cruelty laws for rats?
19:24 < kanzure> On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Reason <reason@exratione.com> wrote:
19:24 < kanzure> > I really don't do the in-person thing, I'm sorry to say.
19:24 < nmz787> not really, they're varmints... but when you raise them things probably change
19:25 < justanotheruser> nmz787: no live animals
19:25 < kanzure> there are usually guidelines for how to handle them
19:25 < kanzure> like, "have guidelines and follow them"
19:25 < justanotheruser> maybe they can ship the rat eggs
19:25 < fenn> yes there are animal cruelty laws for rats and any other vertebrates
19:25 < nmz787> justanotheruser: not sure what you mean no live animals
19:25 < justanotheruser> nmz787: its tough to import live animals you said
19:25 < justanotheruser> or at least seems it might be
19:25 < nmz787> fenn: but is that for raising animals or for killing them?
19:25 < nmz787> err fenn
19:25 < nmz787> ^
19:25 < fenn> SAVE THE CUTTLEFISH
19:25 < kanzure> jackson labs isn't the only provider, just the largest and most popular
19:26 < justanotheruser> I see
19:26 < fenn> nmz787: both
19:26 < kanzure> http://jaxmice.jax.org/
19:27 < nmz787> justanotheruser: I think it's more like, when you export you have to declare the goods, where you might pay taxes or realize an export restriction (like ITAR) but otherwise it depends on the country of import's laws
19:27 < justanotheruser> I see
19:27 < nmz787> so the U.S. might not care about animals leaving
19:27 < fenn> why do they have so many images of rats on books
19:27 < nmz787> and who knows about mexico
19:27 < nmz787> but the U.S. def cares about animals coming in
19:28 < nmz787> they care about boats from lakes or rivers being transported across state lines because of mollusks or some boat-side-living organism
19:28 < kanzure> fenn: photographers spend their time taking pics of anything in the hopes that someday someone will type in the right search terms and then pay them to use their images
19:29 < nmz787> fenn: then maybe I'm thinking that mice don't require special permits, as long as you aren't in violation of the practice laws
19:30 < kanzure> "do you have a permit for that rat?"
19:30 < kanzure> "yes he's registered at the local bar associate"
19:30 < kanzure> thank you i will be here forever
19:31 < fenn> there's not one fifth the number of pictures of cats on books
19:31 < kanzure> try "pussy book"
19:32 < fenn> nmz787: mice and rats can be kept as pets
19:37 < kanzure> too bad about reason
19:37 < kanzure> "Email is more than sufficient should have anything you wanted to run past me and/or discuss."
19:38 < kanzure> wait maybe i pissed him off a few years ago, that might explain it
19:38 < fenn> or maybe he's a hyper-intelligent rat
19:39 < fenn> hence all the life extension experiments on mice
19:39 < kanzure> narf
19:40 < kanzure> i wonder if i could dox him
19:41 < kanzure> like, who the hell else is going to be dedicated enough to sit outside that post office
19:42  * fenn mumbles something about wardriving for his MAC address
19:42 < kanzure> how many miles of wardriving would it take?
19:43 < kanzure> hopefully less than all of them
19:44 < fenn> you could narrow it down significantly with a good traceroute
19:45 < kanzure> Received: from mail.exratione.com ([127.0.0.1])
19:45 < fenn> 127.0.0.1 is in ... this very room! (dramatic noise)
19:46 < fenn> you are tyler durden
19:48 < kanzure> youtube fails me, i can't find a "pinky amazed narf" clip
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20:08 < fenn> "Research published in the March 2013 issue of Cell Stem Cell details the injection of human glial cells into the brains of newborn mice. Upon maturation, the mice were faster learners"
20:09  * fenn squints
20:09 < kanzure> glial cells help with some metabolism stuff right?
20:09 < fenn> scaffolding mostly
20:11 < fenn> they also signal via a slow calcium oscillation
20:14 < fenn> ok here's some interesting statements about which i will remain skeptical:
20:15 < fenn> Einstein’s brain was discovered to contain significantly more glia than normal brains in the left angular gyrus, an area thought to be responsible for mathematical processing and language. The ratio of glia to neurons increases with our definition of intelligence. Not only does the ratio of glia to neurons increase through evolution, but so does the size of the glia. Astroglial cells in the
20:15 < fenn> human have a volume 27 times greater than the same cells in the mouse’s brain.
20:22 < nmz787> huh
20:49 < kanzure> hmm mrna responsible for glial size should be somewhat discoverabe
20:49 < kanzure> discoverable.
21:02 < kanzure> http://www.independent.co.ug/ugandatalks/2014/10/ebola-liberias-president-writes-moving-letter-to-the-world/
21:02 < kanzure> "Dear word,"
21:02 < kanzure> "Dear world,"
21:12 < justanotheruser> "Hugs and Kisses,
21:12 < justanotheruser> Ellen Johnson Sirleaf"
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21:12 < kanzure> yes
21:26 < drethelin> do they need us to send them 500 dollras
21:26 < drethelin> to release some funs
21:31 < kanzure> "Dear world, for every one of our people that you do not save, we shall infect 4 of yours."
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21:51 < kanzure> speckter: hi
21:52 < speckter> Hello
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