--- Log opened Wed Oct 22 00:00:23 2014
00:01 < justanotheruser> nmz787: okay, did you read shamirs paper?
00:01 < justanotheruser> would you care to tell me whats wrong with it?
00:06 < nmz787> never heard of it
00:07 < justanotheruser> nmz787:  "Quantitative Analysis of the Full Bitcoin Transaction Graph"
00:13 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gnsjxpktnhemnbfo] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:14 < nmz787> sorry, busy looking at 'Use of domestic detergents in the California mastitis test for high somatic cell counts in milk'
00:14 < nmz787> paperbot: http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/163/19/566.long
00:14 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1136%2Fvr.163.19.566
00:15 < justanotheruser> interesting...
00:17 < nmz787> paperbot: http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/163/19/566.full.pdf+html
00:17 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1136%2Fvr.163.19.566
00:22 < nmz787> justanotheruser: sorry i'm only just above a newb when it comes to bitcoin
00:24 < justanotheruser> nmz787: but as you said, that shouldn't matter
00:41 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.54.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:41 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.54.84] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:12 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
01:45 < archels> relevant to last night's discussion http://cameramaker.se/microlenses.htm
01:45 < archels> .title
01:45 < yoleaux> The Camera Maker - Making Microlenses
01:45 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:14 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:40 -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:40 -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:40 -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:51 < jrayhawk_> coooool
02:58 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:38 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
03:46 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:53 -!- Vutral__ [~ss@176.10.107.235] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:53 -!- Vutral_ [~ss@176.10.107.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
04:06 -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has quit [Quit: May the force be with you. Always.]
04:23 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
04:30 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:32 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:40 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@S0106b81619e8ecee.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: No calling card for the unsung bard]
05:02 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
05:06 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.54.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:41 < JayDugger> Good morning.
06:51 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
07:07 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gnsjxpktnhemnbfo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
07:31 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mizesietfccgspgb] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:34 -!- d4de^^ [~d4de@197.160.156.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
07:36 -!- d4de^^ [~d4de@197.160.62.123] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:36 -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:44 -!- d3vz3r0 [~d3vz3r0@jsr.6502.ws] has quit [Quit: Bye 1.0.1]
07:59 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
08:03 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:10 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:45 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:48 -!- h0rsep0wer [~h0rsep0we@unaffiliated/h0rsep0wer] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:56 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
09:00 < kanzure> oof
09:02 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
09:03 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:04 < kanzure> stalk: Rusnak <stick@gk2.sk>
09:08 -!- kumavis_ [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:14 -!- kumavis_ [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
09:24 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:27 < fenn> this was cute, literal AR sandbox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IRm-IamCqo
09:28 < kanzure> http://www.blockstream.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/sidechains.pdf
09:29 < fenn> 502 bad gateway
09:30 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/sidechains.pdf
09:33 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:36 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting]
09:37 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:40 < kanzure> http://0bin.net/paste/PpyKcrm5Y1wb5AUJ#kwDsCN6TwWDn61j8QKCn7ifRzSlqwmBJxHUyvsUiHRJ
09:44 -!- justanot1eruser is now known as justanotheruser
10:00 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-qlkiiquehdksupsr] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:00 < fenn> a client side encrypted pastebin?
10:01 < kanzure> where have you been
10:01 < kanzure> what was megaupload?
10:01 < justanotheruser> mega you mean?
10:01 < kanzure> whatever? heh
10:01  * justanotheruser pedants
10:02 < fenn> i mean i get the concept, but it just seems totally lame to fail completely if there isn't actually any encryption. if there is encryption then where is the decryption key?
10:02 < kanzure> url
10:03 < fenn> that's fucking retarded
10:03 < kanzure> hahah
10:03 < justanotheruser> is it?
10:03 < fenn> yes
10:03 < justanotheruser> why?
10:03 < kanzure> not even https too
10:03 < justanotheruser> yeah, lack of https is stupid
10:03 < justanotheruser> but I don't see the problem with the url having the key
10:04 < fenn> because a) the host gets the key, thus negating the point of client-side encryption, b) random packet sniffers get the key c) its in your browser history, d) and on and on
10:05 < justanotheruser> fenn: well most of those are http problems afaix
10:05 < justanotheruser> *afaix
10:05 < fenn> and i cant read the faq because i dont have javascript? srsly
10:05 < justanotheruser> *afaik
10:05 < kanzure> well you should double check what 0bin is doing, i haven't really checked
10:05 < kanzure> i just always assumed the thing in the url was the key
10:05 < kanzure> because i can't figure out why else you would do it like this
10:05 < justanotheruser> kanzure: either its in the URL or it isn't encrypted
10:05 < kanzure> right, except i haven't read 0bin's site ever
10:05 < justanotheruser> kanzure: and it gives you bad key if you change the url :p
10:05 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
10:05 < kanzure> just viewed a few pastes once in a while
10:07 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:07 < fenn> "The browser never sends the hash to the server"
10:08 < fenn> they are talking about the # anchor hash
10:08 < fenn> The goal of 0bin is <strong>not</strong> to protect the user and their data
10:08 < fenn> Instead, it aims to protect the host from being sued for the
10:09 < fenn> content users pasted on the pastebin.
10:09 < fenn> meh
10:12 < kanzure> heh
10:13 < justanotheruser> smart
10:14 < justanotheruser> I wonder if them saying the encryption prevents them from being sued would hurt them in court
10:14 < chris_99> oh i wrote something to scrape pastebin for CCs just to see if there were any
10:15 < kanzure> nothing can prevent you from being sued
10:18 < justanotheruser> lol
10:18 < fenn> presumably they could just implement "client side rot13" with a button you click to get the cleartext
10:18 < justanotheruser> literally you can sue anyone for anything. A lot of the time it will be thrown out though.
10:19 < fenn> there's certainly enough (stupid) legal precedent to claim that rot13 is a form of encryption
10:19 < justanotheruser> kanzure: could you help me with a datastructures problem? I want to make a search engine that finds bitcoin scripts. If someone searches "OP_ADD, OP_CHECKSIG", I want to return results that have both of those opcodes. The scripts are just byte arrays, so I'm wondering what datastructure or database setup is good for searching 10s of millions of these byte arrays. I have a hacky solution right now I'm thinking of involving ...
10:19 < justanotheruser> ... a single table where each column is a boolean representing whether that opcode is present.
10:20 < justanotheruser> tl;dr: how to preprocess list of byte arrays so I can search and find byte arrays containing a list of bytes?
10:21 < fenn> sort them as if they were integers?
10:21 < kanzure> this sounds like some sort of set search thingy. xapian?
10:21 < chris_99> so you wan't to search for multiple strings, within a string?
10:21 < chris_99> aho-corasick if so
10:21 < kanzure> they shouldn't really be considered strins
10:21 < kanzure> *strings
10:22 < kanzure> this dataset is much more restricted than normal stringy datasets
10:22 < kanzure> afk
10:22 < chris_99> aho-corasick works on binary
10:22 < chris_99> too
10:22 < chris_99> AV guys use it
10:24 < fenn> is OP_ADD a bit vector?
10:24 < fenn> or is it an integer
10:24 < justanotheruser> kanzure: restricted only by validity
10:25 < justanotheruser> but I'll check out xapian
10:25 < kanzure> fenn: integer
10:25 < justanotheruser> fenn: 0x93
10:25 < kanzure> fenn: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
10:25 < justanotheruser> kanzure: in what sense is it an integer?
10:26 < fenn> ok nevermind then
10:26 < justanotheruser> when the byte has math done on it it is an integer "When used as numbers, byte vectors are interpreted as little-endian variable-length integers with the most significant bit determining the sign of the integer. Thus 0x81 represents -1. 0x80 is another representation of zero (so called negative 0). Positive 0 is represented by a null-length vector. Byte vectors are interpreted as Booleans where False is represented by any ...
10:26 < justanotheruser> ... representation of zero, and True is represented by any representation of non-zero."
10:27 < kanzure> 0x93 is an integer
10:27 < fenn> i was thinking you had a bit array for each script, where each opcode is represented by one bit. then you bitwise AND those fields with your search query (also a bit array)
10:28 < kanzure> .py 0x93
10:28 < yoleaux> 147
10:28 < justanotheruser> kanzure: it is all about interpretation
10:28 < justanotheruser> they're signed so its actually -13
10:29 < justanotheruser> but that is only when a byte is on the stack and is being interpreted by something that cares about booleans and ints iirc
10:31 < fenn> "a single table where each column is a boolean" is basically a bit field (array of bit vectors)
10:31 < justanotheruser> fenn: its indexed too
10:32 < justanotheruser> well...
10:32 < justanotheruser> there are 10 million entries
10:32 < justanotheruser> I wonder how bad it would be to read 2 mb
10:32 < justanotheruser> probably worse than the space that it would take up on disk
10:32 < fenn> i dont know enough about how databases search things like that to say whether it's efficient or not (my gues is they aren't designed for that type of search)
10:33 < justanotheruser> probably not... but it may still be faster since its O(log n)
10:34 < fenn> there are on the order of 255 opcodes, so each entry needs 255 bits or 319MB for 10 million entries
10:35 < fenn> why do you want to search for the presence of any particular combination of opcodes?
10:36 < justanotheruser> fenn: because it could yeild interesting scripts
10:36 -!- _0bitcount [~big-byte@81.61.34.185.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:36 < kanzure> yeah, there's a bunch of interesting stuff floating around in there
10:36 < kanzure> it's sort of like searching for malware too
10:36 < kanzure> and then various automatic code analysis benefits
10:37 < fenn> it may be worth your time to do cluster analysis and various types of dimensionality reduction
10:38 < fenn> are you familiar with basic machine learning algorithms?
10:38 < justanotheruser> ya
10:38 < justanotheruser> just took a class on it
10:38 < kjskjskjs> justanotheruser: the right data structure for this problem depends a lot on the distribution of the data
10:38 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
10:38 < justanotheruser> I wonder if it would be faster to do it with numpy or find a C++ class
10:39 < kjskjskjs> if almost all scripts contain OP_ADD and almost all scripts contain OP_CHECKSIG then you probably need to precompute the OP_ADD ∧ OP_CHECKSIG result
10:40 < kjskjskjs> fenn's suggested approach involves iterating over all the scripts.  ideally taht's what you'd like to avoid
10:40 < justanotheruser> kanzure: you think xapian would be a good fit for this?
10:40 < fenn> if you're interested in outliers it would seem a statistical analysis approach would be better suited than searching one query at a time
10:40 < justanotheruser> I want exact results btw, not fuzzy results ofcourse
10:40 < kanzure> justanotheruser: not particularly, it's just something on the top of my mind
10:41 < kjskjskjs> things like xapian and lucene can solve this problem, but maybe not efficiently
10:41 < kjskjskjs> 10 million is not very big though
10:41 < kjskjskjs> if you only have 10 million scripts to search then just iterate over them
10:41 < justanotheruser> kjskjskjs: yeah, probably 99% of scripts are of the form <somebytes> <somebytes> OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <somebytes> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
10:41 < kjskjskjs> don't even bother with fancy bit-field data structures
10:42 < justanotheruser> and another .9% is probably p2sh
10:42 < kanzure> i think these scripts can even fit in memory
10:42 < kjskjskjs> hmm, in that case if you had a list of scripts including OP_ADD then you could reduce the number of things to iterate over by 100×
10:42 < kjskjskjs> for that query
10:42 < kanzure> you can also do a histogram-style, where you don't record duplicate scripts
10:42 < kjskjskjs> yeah
10:42 < kanzure> you know, the simplest implementation that i can think of would be sqlalchemy + sqlite or something, and then just iterate from there
10:42 < justanotheruser> kjskjskjs: yeah, I will probably just end up doing that hack for now
10:42 < kanzure> it wont have fancy search features beyond sql querying, but that doesn't sound problematic
10:43 < justanotheruser> It likely wont always be true that 99% of scripts are of that form
10:43 < kanzure> there's even a bitcoin sqlalchemy module somewhere that has common bitcoin structures  that you can readily use with sqlalchemy
10:43 < kanzure> 99% of all scripts are just pay to sighash or whatever
10:43 < kanzure> and storing a billion of those is stupid
10:43 < nmz787_i> won't any-sql add overhead, for something like this you seem to just want a sliding search window over all the data
10:43 < justanotheruser> kanzure: yeah, I probably should just store their pubkey and pubkey hash
10:43 < kanzure> well he wants querying or something
10:44 < kanzure> and implementing your own query engine is dumb
10:44 < kjskjskjs> nmz787_i: it will add overhead but probably not enough to make a difference for only 10 million
10:44 < kjskjskjs> no, implementing your own query engine is not a big deal
10:44 < nmz787_i> so store the results in the db, not the raw data
10:44 < kanzure> sqlite can easily fit in memory with sqlite://:memory: in sqlalchemy
10:44 < nmz787_i> since the raw data has no structure other than as a vector
10:44 < kanzure> raw data does have a structure
10:44 < kanzure> (in this case)
10:45 < fenn> there is a sequence of opcodes
10:45 < kanzure> and params
10:45 < nmz787_i> i heard 'script' which seems like a sequence of 0s and 1s
10:45 < fenn> yeah well this irc channel is a sequence of 0s and 1s
10:46 < nmz787_i> the channel itself, yes, but the viewer programs are separate streams
10:47 < justanotheruser> kanzure: you sure it's that dumb to make my own query engine?
10:47 < kanzure> you should make up some example queries that you want to ru nfirst
10:47 < kanzure> then evaluate that against what each implementation gives you
10:47 < kanzure> then you can decide to make your own or not
10:47 < kanzure> but defaulting to making your own... pfft.
10:48 < fenn> this whole conversation seems like premature optimization anyway
10:48 < justanotheruser> kanzure: good call.
10:48 < justanotheruser> it will be a pain to test all of these though since I need to copy all this blockchain data
10:48 < kanzure> here are some things that might be useful https://github.com/monetizeio/sqlalchemy-bitcoin
10:48 < justanotheruser> I think I might just mentally test it
10:49 < justanotheruser> see if my algorithm would be efficient
10:49 < kanzure> https://github.com/monetizeio/sqlalchemy-bitcoin/blob/master/sa_bitcoin/core.py
10:49 < kanzure> https://github.com/monetizeio/sqlalchemy-bitcoin/blob/master/sa_bitcoin/ledger.py
10:49 < kanzure> maaku: i see your name here
10:50 < justanotheruser> neat, I can put scripts in the DB automatically
10:50 < justanotheruser> still need to handle them specially though, which is why it seems doing it myself would be easier
10:51 < kanzure> petertodd/python-bitcoinlib already parses script pretty well, i highly recommend plugging his CScript implementation in with sqlalchemy-bitcoin stuff
10:51 < justanotheruser> if I'm going to query the for p2pk, then I need to index pubkeys and pubkey hashes
10:51 < justanotheruser> kanzure: yeah, already was planning on using that
10:51 < justanotheruser> would be a pain reimplementing all that for each opcode
10:52 < kanzure> 10:47 <+deltab> "Experience historically accurate terrain collision rendering." — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pfgMS3nDn4
10:52 < justanotheruser> ok, thx for the help
10:52  * justanotheruser vanishes
10:53 < kanzure> wizard evidence
10:55 < fenn> poof
10:56 < fenn> i still dont get the focus on querying and databases if the whole point of the exercise is data science/exploration
10:56 < kanzure> he wants to be able to do things like "find me every script that has this op code followed by this other one"
10:56 < kanzure> or "find me all scripts that are invalid"
10:56 < fenn> uh..
10:57 < kanzure> ... i assume.
10:57 < fenn> isnt that basically the halting problem
10:57 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
10:58 < fenn> hm no loops
10:59 < kanzure> hehe
10:59 < fenn> lisp has no loops but it's trivial to construct one
10:59 < kanzure> there are also limits on how long a script can execute or how many ops
11:00 < kanzure> ask in #bitcoin-wizards or #bitcoin-dev
11:00 < maaku> kanzure: I wrote it, although right now it is pre-blockstream abandonware
11:00 < fenn> there's too much to learn bitcoin before i can ask a decent question
11:00 < maaku> happy to entertain questions about it or pull request
11:00 < fenn> about bitcoin*
11:00 < kanzure> maaku: abandonware because it is borked or abandonware because limited time
11:01 < archels> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4615-0039-1_15?no-access=true
11:01 < maaku> limited time + no longer doing the project which necessitated its existence in the first place
11:01 < archels> ?no-access=true lol
11:01 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/430b0ce28ae82bd792044c3bfb8d300c.txt
11:01 < kanzure> maaku: cool. i'll probably use it eventually, nice to have sqlalchemy stuff available.
11:02 < kanzure> fenn: yes, that's a big problem, but i dunno how to solve it... "sorry, but yes there are multiple components."
11:02 < maaku> nothing wrong with it although there may be a few undocumented warts. it certainly wasn't up to my "release-ready" standards when I stopped working on it
11:02 < archels> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-1-4615-0039-1_15.pdf
11:02 < paperbot> XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 524, in parse_html)
11:02 -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:02 < archels> well, frack
11:04 < fenn> http://www.frackingfacts.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/noFrack.jpg
11:06 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-80-140-243.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:07 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-166-61-180.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:11 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
11:13 < kanzure> fenn: if it makes you feel better there's basically only ten people that understand bitcoin
11:17 < fenn> and half of them are fictional?
11:18 < kanzure> i mean, if nobody reads papers anymore, how many people do you think also read code and papers
11:18 < kanzure> this isn't like linux where you have 10,000 people that already understand kernels floating around your society
11:19 < fenn> i still dont see anything wrong with my suggestion above about how to do queries... it seems like there's a fair amount of research on indexing bitmaps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitmap_index
11:19 < kanzure> literally everyone had to learn by reading the source code, because that was all that was produced
11:19 < kanzure> oh, i don't think i said there was anything wrong with that idea?
11:19 < fenn> kjskjskjs didnt like it because "you'd have to iterate over every entry" but you have to do that anyway in order to parse the data in the first place
11:20 < kanzure> i just can't imagine the exact implementation
11:20 < kanzure> i would have to do work or something
11:20 < fenn> i probably misunderstood the problem he was trying to solve in the first place
11:22 < kanzure> well, i assume the problem is something like:
11:23 < kanzure> "here is a bunch of possibly cool data, what are typical analysis things i should be doing with it and how"
11:23 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:23 < fenn> ok so where does database queries enter into that
11:24 < fenn> k-means would be a good place to start
11:24 < fenn> markov modeling maybe
11:24 < fenn> there are a zillion ways to slice large data sets
11:25 < kanzure> also there's some static analysis (erm, w.r.t code/software) aspects to this
11:25 < kanzure> queries over code, was what i was thinking..
11:26 < fenn> bayesian filters
11:26 < kanzure> hm?
11:26 < fenn> as a way of sorting through large quantities of irrelevant data
11:26 < kanzure> (brb)
11:27 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_spam_filtering
11:27 < kanzure> applied to source code?
11:27 < fenn> sure why not
11:27 < kanzure> what would that look like?
11:27 < kanzure> (brb4realz)
11:30 < fenn> in this case you'd be prejudiced against things that look like "<somebytes> <somebytes> OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <somebytes> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG"
11:30 < fenn> (not that i have any idea what that means)
11:32 < fenn> you can use bayes filtering to sort things into multiple bins too, not just spam/nospam
11:32 < chris_99> dumb question, why do different transactions need to do different things, via scripts
11:33 < fenn> because they're the basis for contracts
11:34 < chris_99> oh i didn't know it could do that kind of stuff just looking at the wiki on that thanks
11:34 < fenn> say you want to sell a car on a different continent, how do both parties ensure that they dont get screwed? the traditional solution is to send both money and keys to an escrow service
11:35 < chris_99> i never noticed anything to do this kind of stuff in the btc client i used, but it's been a long time
11:35 < fenn> with smart contracts, the keys don't work unless the money has been exchanged, and the money doesnt work unless the keys have been received
11:35 < chris_99> nice
11:36 < fenn> i havent been following bitcoin much, but it seems like a set of possible enhancements rather than a 1.0 feature
11:37 < fenn> there is also stuff like multiple signatures required to transfer money, so if you get hacked your bank wont send money, or if your bank gets hacked they wont send money (word "bank" being used loosely)
11:39 < chris_99> clever
11:41 < kanzure> some of those things are in the bitcoin client and others are not
11:41 < kanzure> pay-to-script-hash for example works (the addresses start with '3' or 'm' on testnet or something)
11:41 < kanzure> and it just looks like you're paying a funny looking address
11:44 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:46 < chris_99> ah
11:47 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:48 < fenn> so do miners actually run the scripts to see if they're valid?
11:48 < kanzure> yes
11:48 < kanzure> every bitcoin node runs the scripts
11:48 < kanzure> petertodd even implemented a python version in python-bitcoinlib called VerifyScript
11:49 < fenn> not every node? just the ones that are verifying that block, right?
11:49 < kanzure> even the blocks are verified by nodes
11:49 < kanzure> now, there are some bitcoin software implementation things that do not do any verification- these are usually called "spv" for some reason
11:49 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
11:49 < kanzure> (however, bitcoind.git does not implement that)
11:49 < kanzure> (actually it might; that may have been in a recent pull request that i saw? it's a config option maybe. and it's definitely not enabled by default.)
11:50 < fenn> guh. true/false: every node verifies every block
11:50 < kanzure> well what the fuck is a node
11:51 < kanzure> it's sort of like asking "everything that uses the bittorrent protocol does everything the official implementation does?"
11:51 < fenn> this is only part of why i'm confused
11:52 < kanzure> anyone can write some software that does not verify every block in the blockchain
11:52 < kanzure> however, this is dangerous because you can be mitm'ed much more easily
11:52 -!- h0rsep0wer [~h0rsep0we@unaffiliated/h0rsep0wer] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:53 < kanzure> everyone that deploys bitcoind by default with no config changes will be veryifying every transaction that they see from the p2p network, including every transaction in every block
11:53 -!- _0bitcount [~big-byte@81.61.34.185.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:54 < fenn> and that actually scales?
11:54 < kanzure> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability
11:55 < fenn> why cant they just use multiple blockchains
11:55 < kanzure> if your balance is on one blockchain (like the dogecoin blockchain) and i want to receive on the other, how do you communicate that to your users
11:56 < kanzure> or to your payees/payers or w/e
11:58 < kanzure> there are other reasons why multiple blockchains are a bad idea, related to security and mining hashrate
11:58 < kanzure> (and then less strong reasons like "well nobody understands the first one, and you want to start a second secured only by your own lack of understanding?")
11:59 < fenn> great
11:59 < fenn> i guess i had this fantasy that there were all these smart crypto people out there who actually understood all this
11:59 < kanzure> there's a small group that is growing at a very slow rate
12:00 < kanzure> and all of their knowledge comes from "reading the bitcoin source code" basically
12:01 < fenn> so all this microtransaction $0.0001 per gif viewed crap is basically impossible with current bitcoin protocol
12:01 < kanzure> tx fee might have to be pretty high to get the transaction picked up
12:02 < nmz787_i> back to real news: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/british-doctors-on-brink-of-cure-for-paralysis-9807010.html
12:02 < kanzure> unfortunately it is hard to determine what is real or not in the news
12:02 < fenn> speaking of news, apparently someone shot up the canadian parliament
12:04 < kanzure> 12:03 < nsh> "There are trade-offs between scalability and decentralisation. For example, a larger block size would allow the network to support a higher transaction rate, at the cost of placing more work on validators — a centralisation risk."  -- is it worth elaborating on how this leads to centralization?
12:04 < nmz787_i> i saw that too
12:04 < kanzure> 12:03 < sipa> if fewer people can validate, validation becomes more centralized.
12:04 < kanzure> 12:03 < sipa> any question? :0
12:06 < fenn> i just think its crazy to have everyone validating every transaction
12:07 < kanzure> go tell #bitcoin-wizards
12:07 < kanzure> they are fun to talk with too
12:07 < kanzure> and nsh is there so he has your back i guess
12:07 < kanzure> 12:07 < nsh> so the degree of centralization depends on the tail of resource-availability or usability of the cadre of potential validating participants
12:08 < fenn> wait, what time is it now?
12:08 < kanzure> i don't know man
12:08 < kanzure> fuck time?
12:08 < fenn> did nsh just say that?
12:08 < kanzure> yes
12:09 < nsh> had you asked already?
12:09 < nsh> didn't see
12:09 < nmz787_i> why is it crazy to have everyone validate everything?
12:11 < kanzure> and approximately how crazy on a log scale
12:18 < fenn> because it's an O(N^2) algorithm
12:19 < kanzure> also, log context http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2014-10-22.log
12:24 < nmz787_i> fenn: but like, so what, you either fear getting ripped off, or spend some watts making sure that doesn't happen. this is why we invented computers.
12:27 < maaku> fenn: ideally full nodes should not be running scripts. that is crazy. they should validating execution traces of scripts (which is cheaper!)
12:27 < fenn> not if you have to download a gigabyte of data and you're in subsaharan africa with a cellphone
12:27 < maaku> but that' snot how bitcoin works
12:28 < maaku> fenn: i don' tthink your scaling numbers are right though
12:28 < fenn> maaku: it seems like the sheer number of transactions would still not scale even with no scripts
12:28 < maaku> script validation is O(n) with script size
12:29 < fenn> transaction validation is O((n/2)^2) with n transactions
12:29 < kanzure> you're both in wizards this is silly
12:29 < maaku> oh well that's a complaint against bitcoin. having a distributed consensus where N people validate M transactions scales as O(N*M)
12:29 < maaku> so don't use bitcoin. that's the cost
12:29 < kanzure> there are many bitcoin software thingies that do *not* validate all transactions.
12:29 < nmz787_i> what maaku said
12:29 < fenn> er, yes you were right O(N*M)
12:30 < maaku> kanzure: only becaues miner *do* validate
12:30 < nmz787_i> if bitcoin sucks, find a patch
12:30 < fenn> guh i dont even know what bitcoin is
12:30 < maaku> nmz787_i: not quite, this isn't something you can fix
12:30 < maaku> well, not without SNARK magic that doesn't exist yet
12:30 < nmz787_i> well then in that case, deal with the overhead of not getting ripped off in transactions
12:33 < fenn> nmz787_i: currently, as i understand it, "validate everything" is equivalent to "only validate my transaction", and you should be able to only validate a subset of transactions
12:33 < maaku> but yeah, the true cost of a bitcoin transaction is something like $20-$40
12:33 < fenn> what!
12:33 < maaku> but because of subsidies most people don't know that
12:33 < kanzure> the "true" cost also has to include things like forever storage costs i think
12:33 < fenn> the reptilians from sirius B must be pumping some serious intergalactic cash into this
12:34 < kanzure> sirius-m hasn't been committing in a while i don't know what you're talking about
12:34 < maaku> 25btc every 10 minutes, and it's hard to fit more than a thousand or so transactions in a block. do the math on that
12:34 < maaku> well ok, $10. price has declined
12:34 < maaku> kanzure: true
12:35 < kanzure> it's also hard to calculate what the real value of a non-centralized ledger is supposed to be
12:35 < fenn> it's hard to calculate any value
12:35 < kanzure> so nobody knows if $10-$40 is too much or too low or what
12:35 < fenn> a glass of water is priceless if you're dying of thirst
12:36 < maaku> eh it's not the centralization that's important, it is the trustlessness. the promise of smart contracts that can't be revoked by fiat
12:36 < fenn> what exactly is the promise of smart contracts?
12:37 < maaku> fenn: making contracts enforced by the universe instead of courts and guns
12:38 < kanzure> just to be snarky.... but courts and guns are part of the universe.
12:38 < fenn> so the promise is we can get rid of governments and still have law?
12:38 < fenn> or some kinds of law at least
12:39 < maaku> which i'm sorry is so abstract, but it promises huge efficiencies (eliminating double-digit percentages of global GDP that is wasted), plus anti-corruption by being able to restrict what is done with money, etc.
12:39 < fenn> so you can buy porn on ebay?
12:39 < maaku> and democratizing contracts to the poorest people
12:40 < fenn> (what restrictions on what is done with money are you upset with currently?)
12:40 < maaku> right now if you are poor and put in the position of needing to exchange with someone rich, the power dynamic ensures that many times you're screwed with no recourse
12:40 < maaku> a smart contract, on the other hand, doesn't care who you are. it executes according to its script irregardless
12:41 < fenn> the being screwed is mostly due to lack of choice and market monopolies
12:41 < fenn> any corruption involved is usually supported by law in the first place
12:41 < maaku> fenn: I'm getting at why there are no choices, and why being a monopolist is a position of power
12:44 < kanzure> maaku: i really appreciate your thermodyamics-based explanation of proof-of-work and consensus sets, and i am going to be stealing it for the rest of forever.
12:47 < maaku> :)
12:49 < fenn> if verizon locks me into a "smart contract" with lousy terms, how is that any better than the current situation?
12:51 < maaku> fenn: the important point is that with a smart contract they can't change the terms on you later, or pay off someone to interpret the terms in their favor, etc.
12:51 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:51 < maaku> there is still a lot of work to be done to make sure that users have tools to inform them of the implications of a smart contract before they sign it
12:51 < fenn> so the benefits are just that it's specified in a formal language with unabiguous interpretation?
12:52 < maaku> right, that's it really
12:52 < maaku> -but- i will claim that the implications of that simple difference are huge
12:53 < maaku> but of course if I didn't feel that way I wouldn't be a full time bitcoin developer :P
12:53 < maaku> kanzure: so on that theme and in line with the topic of this channel, one way of interpreting bitcoin is similar to a nanny AGI
12:54 < maaku> the nanny AGI is omnipotent, but only uses that power to enforce various constraints
12:55 < maaku> bitcoin effectively does the same: it is a construction that makes the universe enforce particular constraints about transaction validity and revokation
12:55 < fenn> i am trying to find something jmc (of lisp fame) wrote about formalized legal systems (basically a robot judge)
12:56 < maaku> due to the connection between proof-of-work and the entropy law
12:59 < fenn> it was somewhere around here http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/elephant/elephant.html
13:00  * justanotheruser appears out of nowhere
13:00 < fenn> anyway this sounded sort of relevant "Programs that engage in commercial transactions assume obligations on behalf of their owners in exchange for obligations assumed by other entities. It may be part of the specifications of an Elephant 2000 programs that these obligations are exchanged as intended, and this too can be expressed by a logical sentence."
13:01 < maaku> nick szabo has done a lot of work in this area. you can start on his stuff here : http://szabo.best.vwh.net/smart_contracts_idea.html
13:01 < maaku> further links at the bottom
13:02 < maaku> fenn: right so there are engineering reasons why a higher level language like elephant is probably not a good choice for the protocol level, but the idea is similar
13:03 < fenn> sure, i was thinking of it like C and assembly
13:03 < maaku> right
13:03 < fenn> elephant gets compiled to bitcoin_script or whatever its called
13:04 < maaku> right, so another language in that area is E by Mark Miller : http://www.erights.org/
13:05 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
13:06 < kanzure> maaku: instead of nanny agi i have been saying anti-replay oracle
13:08 < fenn> it wouldnt (and shouldnt) be a general intelligence anyway
13:08 < fenn> or you're back where we started with judges and corruptability
13:09 < fenn> find me one person in the world who knows what's legal or not legal
13:13 < maaku> fenn: side issue. a fully general AI can have a strictly unchanging goal set.
13:14 < maaku> kanzure: eh, nanny AGI is a bit broader than that. e.g. the source of magic in HPMoR is (I speculate) something akin to a nanny AGI enforcing programmable conditions
13:15 -!- paperlooker [~tiktaalik@50-79-188-182-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:15 < maaku> (with Merlin having basically programmed in the operating system that contains charms, etc. as programs)
13:15 < paperlooker> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pbr.12190/pdf
13:15 < paperlooker> paperboooot do your thing
13:15 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:15 < maaku> maybe nanny AGI isn't the right word, i'd be curious if you can suggest something better
13:15 < paperlooker> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pbr.12190/full
13:16 < paperlooker> T_T
13:16 < paperlooker> kanzure: ?
13:16 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/64a723ca996d95a9fef285cf027d695.txt
13:18 < kanzure> maaku: i saw a lamport paper recently that suggested that every node hsould simulate a "virtual leader" that does the correct thing, instead of an actual leader.
13:19 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/8e2dc82d65c69cd716d80b3198a9a340.txt
13:19 < paperlooker> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1111/pbr.12190/
13:19 < kanzure> unfortunately paperbot is not omnipotent
13:19  * paperlooker is sad about that
13:20 < paperlooker> I worship paperbot
13:20 < nmz787_i> just watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKOlfR5OcB4#t=2202
13:20 < nmz787_i> .title
13:20 < yoleaux> Alfred Leitner - Liquid Helium II the Superfluid - YouTube
13:21 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/cc2832407347eda545b7b9c1e9cc598f.txt
13:21 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pbr.12190/pdf
13:22 < kanzure> you should check the .txt file to see if it is an access issue or a parser issue
13:23 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
13:23 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/79ab9636eb86d0418073ba5810cee394.txt
13:25 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/pbr.12190/asset/pbr12190.pdf
13:25 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/36b05a58c8a64e2ade7f33aff3c882b6.txt
13:31 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:32 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:34 < paperlooker> kanzure: FYI, it did work. the page loads dynamically with javascript so you have to find a .pdf within the text/html spew
13:34  * paperlooker rolls eyes
13:40 < kanzure> hm?
13:40 < kanzure> paperbot spews a .txt file when it can't access a .pdf
13:42 < kanzure> .title http://dangerousprototypes.com/?p=83950
13:42 < yoleaux> Update on CERN’s investment in KiCAD | Dangerous Prototypes
13:43 < paperlooker> yea, but the link to the pdf I wanted was within
13:43 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:44 < kanzure> paperbot doesn't get *links* to pdfs, it gets the actual pdfs
13:44 < kanzure> or at least attempts to
13:44 < nmz787_i> if that pdf link worked for you, you didn't need paperbot
13:44 < kanzure> yeah
13:45 < justanotheruser> lol
13:45 < fenn> should i read "true names"?
13:46 < kanzure> link
13:47 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Names http://fennetic.net/irc/true_names.pdf
13:47 < superkuh> If you're looking for cyberpunk fiction I just finished Raphael Carter's "The Fortunate Fall" and it was fairly good. It played up the "if you die in the matrix you die in real life" bit but overall the setting (censorship dystopia) and prose were worth it. Rare in a cyberpunk story.
13:48 < paperlooker> nah, I did. the "*.pdf" one it returned was a html spew but there was a link to the appropriate pdf contained within
13:49 < kanzure> fenn: yes i think we have been lacking on vernor vinge in general for a while now
13:49 < kanzure> so someone should pick up this slack
13:49 < drethelin> the last thing he wrote was a lame sequel to a fire upon the deep right
13:49 < fenn> sequel to a deepness in the sky i think
13:50 < kanzure> was the rainbow thing him or was that stross?
13:50 < fenn> rainbows end was him (AR meets evil AI meets biotech)
13:50 < paperlooker> -_-
13:50 < fenn> or at least "AI with questionable motives"
13:50 < paperlooker> rainbows end was a poor book
13:50 < superkuh> Unrelated: I feel like half the existing Chinese optical crystal websites are just fronts for a single company. The html tables and english wording are exactly the same. They just slap a different header and company name above it.
13:51 < fenn> it wasnt so much a book as a technology proposal
13:51 < kanzure> i was not impressed with a deepness in the sky when i was 12, but i think the interweb is telling me a fire upon the deep is the proper one to read
13:51 < kanzure> superkuh: i have been collecting some china spam for a while now. eventually i will package this up into a .mbox or .zip but it confirms your observations.
13:51 < fenn> i was not impressed with a fire upon the deep when i was .. well, not much younger than i am now
13:52 < kanzure> the emails are all from companies like "Quanghing Xian Technology Corporation Company Ltd. LLC, Shanghai Development Zone, Dalian, Liaoning, China"
13:53 < fenn> i liked the tines world
13:54 < kanzure> "Shanghai Yancui Import And Export Co., Ltd"
13:54 < kanzure> "SuZhou Transtone Auto Parts Co.,Ltd""
13:55 < superkuh> "Shanghai Daheng Optics and Fine Mechanics Co.,LTD."
13:55 < fenn> oh no wonder i'm getting them mixed up. "Vinge's novel, A Deepness in the Sky (1999), is a prequel to A Fire Upon the Deep set 20,000 years earlier and featuring Pham Nuwen. Vinge's The Children of the Sky, "a near-term sequel to A Fire Upon the Deep", set ten years later"
13:56 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:56 < kanzure> a fire upon the deep is the one that wei dai really likes
13:57 < kanzure> and happens to be the one that wasn't on my dad's bookshelf so that's how i ended up with the crap ones
13:58 < fenn> i guess i just wasnt that impressed with his presentation of the blight
13:58 < fenn> compared to, say, 3340 in ventus
14:03 < fenn> the internet: a vasty deep of broken links and spontaneous time warps
14:04  * fenn summons the demon spirit of ted nelson
14:04 < kanzure> it's too bad that science fiction hasn't really caught up to stuff.
14:04 < kanzure> i don't have time to write their scifi, that's their job
14:05 < superkuh> arxiv has the best scifi.
14:06 < kanzure> .g site:arxiv.org "Greg Egan"
14:06 < drethelin> I liked rainbows end
14:06 < yoleaux> http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0208010
14:06 < kanzure> .title
14:06 < yoleaux> [gr-qc/0208010] Asymptotics of 10j symbols
14:06 < drethelin> like it had no good cfharacters
14:06 < drethelin> but I still enjoyed it
14:07 < fenn> it was intended to be played as an alternate reality game on the san diego campus
14:08 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:08 < superkuh> The Benford brothers "Gregory (scifi author) and James" are have a bit on there.
14:09 < superkuh> But the funniest I've run across is, http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.0526
14:09 < kanzure> i ran into gregory benford once over at some conference when he was pimping for genescient i think
14:10 < fenn> yeah herbal tinctures to recompile your DNA, uh huh
14:11 < fenn> they seem to have buried that product/research
14:12 < nmz787_i> chemo recompiles yer dna, sort of
14:14 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-qlkiiquehdksupsr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:15 < fenn> superkuh: is that an april fools joke? it's not funny and it sounds perfectly reasonable except for the "telescopes such as myself" bit
14:15 < superkuh> Keep reading.
14:16 < superkuh> And yes, a great april fools joke.
14:27 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:28 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:29 < kanzure> http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/22/sosventures-takes-on-y-combinator-with-a-pure-biotech-accelerator/
14:30 < kanzure> haha "yes we're exactly like ycombinator with none of the lessons about software and growth"
14:31 < kanzure> "Also of note, IndieBio is acquiring Berkeley BioLabs and bringing in Ryan Bethencourt"
14:31 < kanzure> ah that's news..
14:34 < fenn> Warning
14:34 < fenn> Some browsers may have trouble displaying this image at full resolution: This image has a large number of pixels and may either not load properly or cause your browser to freeze.
14:34 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VISTA%E2%80%99s_infrared_view_of_the_Orion_Nebula.jpg
14:50 < nmz787> www.minimetalmaker.com/technology
14:50 < nmz787> .title
14:50 < yoleaux> Technology of the Mini Metal Maker | http://minimetalmaker.com
14:50 < nmz787> blah
14:53 < nmz787> justanotheruser: re: last night (for me at least) talk on bitcoin paper... I said I was relatively a newb to an expert, then you replied nmz787: but as you said, that shouldn't matter
14:53 < justanotheruser> indeed
14:53 < nmz787> justanotheruser: but originally I was saying that a non-expert wouldn't be able to feasibilt evaluate the work of an expert when it comes to details
14:54 < justanotheruser> I thought you said 02:53 < nmz787> that seems like an issue with the reader, that their fact/non-fact processing isn't robust enough to check or make note of thinks they don't understand, for someone else to check
14:54 < nmz787> yes
14:54 < nmz787> so it is a personal issue that i lack knowledge to evaluate the paper
14:55 < justanotheruser> nmz787: however you would likely be able to read it and understand the message
14:55 < nmz787> it's not the paper's fault... 'it's math's fault'
14:55 < justanotheruser> wat?
14:55 < nmz787> there's a reason math is a bachelors and masters and phd level degree
14:56 < nmz787> it's non-trivial
14:56 < nmz787> especially when you're talking about security and looking for sidechannels
14:57 < justanotheruser> yeah?
14:57 < justanotheruser> My original question was just how often such papers slipped by
14:58 < kanzure> a lot of papers are crap
14:58 < kanzure> the vast majority of papers are terrible
14:58 < nmz787> how many math nerds are there relative to non-math nerds, or people who don't like math at all
14:59 < nmz787> (very few math nerds relative to population at large)
14:59 < fenn> over nine thousandth
15:00 < kanzure> fenn: ever feel like the world is just a giant gish gallop attack against you
15:01 < fenn> .wik gish gallop
15:01 < yoleaux> "Duane Tolbert Gish (February 17, 1921 – March 5, 2013) was an American biochemist and a prominent member of the creationist movement. A Young Earth creationist, Gish was a former vice-president of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) and the author of numerous publications about creation science. Gish was called "creationism's T. H." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
15:01 < fenn> sorry i'm all out of tabs
15:01 < kanzure> http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop
15:02 < kanzure> "The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of small arguments that their opponent cannot possibly answer or address each one in real time. More often than not, these myriad arguments are full of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments — the only condition is that there be many of them, not that they be particularly compelling on their own. They may be escape hatches or "gotcha" arguments that ...
15:02 < kanzure> ... are specifically designed to be brief, but take a long time to unravel. Thus, galloping is frequently used in timed debates (especially by creationists) to overwhelm one's opponent."
15:02 < nmz787> duh
15:02 < nmz787> complex answers take time to explain to people not in the know
15:03 < kanzure> there's really nothing that is particularly complex
15:03 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:03 < fenn> i disagree, there are lots of things that are humongously complex and nobody understands them
15:04 < fenn> there are also plenty of things that are quite simple and elegant but for unknown reasons have been massacred over and over again until nobody knows wtf they are talking about
15:04 < fenn> like quantum mechanics for example
15:04 < maaku> i understand quantum mechanics
15:05 < kanzure> he wasn't using quantum mechanics as an example of complex
15:05 < fenn> please dont be offended if i dont take your word for it
15:05 < maaku> the problem is most physics professors don't understand quantum mechanics, because there's this culture that developed in which it was considered smart, even wise to label it as 'mysterious' and stop thinking
15:05 < fenn> things that are complex: the brain, the economy, the immune system
15:06 < maaku> (physics degree here, partly left physics for comp sci because i was disgusted with this phenomenon)
15:06 < fenn> i'm hoping garrett lisi's theory turns out to be true (or at least 'valid')
15:06 < kanzure> look on the bright side, you are still capable of experiencing disgust
15:07 < fenn> then at least physics will be more than just a pile of observations
15:07 < maaku> heh
15:08 < nmz787> kanzure: also modelling that disgust with comp sci!
15:08 < nmz787> we have a winner
15:08 < justanotheruser> kanzure: have you intentionally been recruiting bitcoin devs into here?
15:09 < nmz787> they should be called something better, like trustbit
15:09 < kanzure> justanotheruser: nope
15:09 < nmz787> or safebit
15:09 < nmz787> bithappy
15:09 < kanzure> justanotheruser: they just don't completely hate me
15:09 < fenn> they're taking over, we never even talk about transhumanism anymore
15:09 < nmz787> but not funbut
15:09 < kanzure> i have benefits like email and bookmarks
15:10 < nmz787> funbit
15:10 < kanzure> and paperbot
15:10 < nmz787> we should just store paperbot in the blockchain
15:10 < justanotheruser> yeah. If only there was a channel with paperbot but no kanzure /s
15:10 < maaku> i was into transhumanism before bitcoin :)
15:10 < kanzure> we tried that but it turns out i'm the only one doing anything in here
15:10 < nmz787> and have the propagtion delay serve as a delay loop
15:10 < nmz787> to get computation cycles
15:10 < nmz787> or something
15:11 < fenn> we should just implement paperbot on a negative time delay switches, then he can fetch papers from the future
15:11 < nmz787> psh
15:11 < nmz787> i am doing micro/nanoscopy and fab shit
15:12 < kanzure> yes but you're increasingly proprietary-only and that will eventually get inconvenient for me
15:12 < kanzure> and anyone else in here.
15:12 < nmz787> devs take time to release shit for OS
15:12 < fenn> whats the point then
15:12 < fenn> open source is not a dumping grounds
15:13 < kanzure> correct.
15:13 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
15:13 < nmz787> by shit i meant stuff
15:13 < fenn> by stuff you meant "finished" software
15:14 < nmz787> did 'satoshi' release half-implemented code or papers or whatever?
15:14 < kanzure> yes
15:14 < kanzure> that's why bitcoin is so broken
15:14 < nmz787> well who did he have to compete with anyway
15:14 < nmz787> ah
15:14 < kanzure> all the other p2p currency ideas at the time
15:14 < kanzure> that's why 2 days after his release i shitted all over it
15:14 < kanzure> "your software is fucking shit and i hate you"
15:14 < fenn> it's great they let people use it when they're done, but a) they lose the advantages of open source development, and b) there's no community built around it
15:15 < kanzure> an open source strategy is actually pretty nuanced, it's not just "throw it over the wall"
15:15 < fenn> if it werent for marc fawzi i would probably be a millionaire now
15:15  * fenn shrugs
15:15 < kanzure> i should sue him
15:15 < kanzure> hah
15:15 < kanzure> mental distress
15:15 < kanzure> and .. stuff.
15:15 < fenn> hire a palestinian to blow up his house :P
15:15 < fenn> naw its just that he completely turned me off of virtual currencies
15:16 < kanzure> it was pretty endless
15:16 < justanotheruser> I feel like every time I argue with PoS people it becomes some petty subargument about how miners having the risk of DoS is a much smaller risk than someone reverse engineering a program to attack it
15:16 < kanzure> his emails were super long
15:16 < kanzure> s/endless/relentless
15:16 < kanzure> maaku: funny thing is that satoshi directly references marc fawzi in a few of his emails
15:17 < nmz787> joules are the new jewels
15:17 < nmz787> i'm telling you
15:17 < kanzure> you were around for those emails?
15:17 < kanzure> very early 2009?
15:18 < nmz787> me?
15:19 < kanzure> yes
15:19 < nmz787> i existed
15:19 < nmz787> I knew about bitcoin via silkroad media mention
15:19 < kanzure> at the time, marc fawzi was spamming open manufacturing with his p2p joule currency
15:19 < nmz787> huh
15:19 < kanzure> which is the stuff satoshi referenced in his p2presearch emails
15:19 < nmz787> idk
15:19 < kanzure> anyway i was banning him a few times etc
15:20 < kanzure> typical "kanzure is an evil psychopath from the future" slurs were thrown around...
15:20 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/openmanufacturing/o_3Tp9mPaA4/Y_HuEb36rHUJ
15:20 < fenn> to be fair it was completely off topic
15:20 < kanzure> On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Bryan Bishop wrote:
15:20 < kanzure> > On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 9:15 PM, marc fawzi wrote:
15:20 < kanzure> >> The two biggest dogmas present in current social theories are:
15:20 < kanzure> >
15:20 < kanzure> > Marc, could you please move this on to another mailing list now, maybe
15:20 < kanzure> > the postscarcity mailing list, or even better, Michel's p2presearch
15:21 < kanzure> > list? Since we've discussed these topics, and your P2P model, forever
15:21 < nmz787> my openamnufacturing archive dates to 3/2009
15:21 < kanzure> hahaha. go me!
15:23 < kanzure> ah, so that may have been after
15:23 < kanzure> but just barely
15:38 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I see you in my inbox
15:38 < justanotheruser> and I am now curious who this dsmurrel guy is
15:39 < kanzure> just some spammer
15:39 < kanzure> justanotheruser: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k070h/enabling_blockchain_innovations_with_pegged/clgokbf
15:39 < justanotheruser> nevermind, based on the context I realized he was opencryptoreview
15:40 < justanotheruser> his website is a good idea, he's just to spammy IMO
15:40 < kanzure> right, independent of whether it's good/bad, he's too spammy
15:40 < kanzure> also, there was once a time- if you can believe it- where it was unusual to /not/ see me in your inbox
15:41 < justanotheruser> kanzure: what, you used to be a regular in the mailing list?
15:41 < kanzure> not that particular mailing list
15:41 < justanotheruser> well why would it be my inbox :P
15:41 < kanzure> that's just how it worked, my email would find ways of getting to people
15:41  * justanotheruser crawls all transhumanism mailing lists for bryan
15:42 < justanotheruser> lol
15:44 < justanotheruser> kanzure: how do you host diyhpl.us
15:45 < jrayhawk_> i throw servers at him
15:45 < justanotheruser> I am tired of paying so much for ec2
15:45 < justanotheruser> you probably use s3 if you use aws though
15:45 < kanzure> hmm someone posted this https://github.com/kanzure/bitcoin-incentives/issues/4
15:46 < kanzure> justanotheruser: i use aws, but i don't actually host anything on s3 except for the consulting stuff i do
15:46 < kanzure> i mean, i use aws for commercial stuff. not personal stuff.
15:46 < kanzure> i mean.. for commercial stuff for clients and customers.
15:48 < justanotheruser> "Miners have incentives to reorganize the blockchain to change who gets transaction fees. They can do this without eroding trust by enforcing the same ordering of transactions."
15:48 < justanotheruser> the anti-incentive of lost rewards are very high
15:49 < kanzure> take it to -wizards, i don't want to proxy conversations between both channels
15:49 < kanzure> (i just quoted from that page actually)
15:49 < jrayhawk_> dis- is the operative prefix
15:50 < kanzure> in irc anyone can make up whatever words they please, from henceforth i shall deem these malincentives
15:50 < kanzure> (kidding)
15:55 < fenn> incensives
15:55 < kanzure> "agitates into action or inaction"
15:56 < kanzure> fenn did you look at the versum paper
15:57 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/VerSum:%20Verifiable%20computations%20over%20large%20public%20logs.pdf
16:01 < justanotheruser> jrayhawk_: I anti-agree
16:01 < jrayhawk_> oh god
16:02 < justanotheruser> lol
16:02 < justanotheruser> jrayhawk_: what is the operative prefix of "scales of economy"
16:05 < jrayhawk_> while we're taking the english language out back and shooting it, i am going to go with unscales of economy
16:05 < justanotheruser> really?
16:05 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:05 < kanzure> what about just "economic inefficiency" there?
16:06 < justanotheruser> kanzure: doesn't cover that scales matters
16:06 < justanotheruser> *matter
16:06 < jrayhawk_> "unscalability" is usually the term
16:07 < justanotheruser> yeah, that makes sense
16:07 < kanzure> so re: https://github.com/kanzure/bitcoin-incentives/issues/4
16:07 < kanzure> wait, no, wrong channel
16:07 < jrayhawk_> hahaha
16:08 < justanotheruser> 19:07 < kanzure> justanotheruser: what do you think, is it safe for me to include that text verbatim and give attribution to that user?
16:08 < justanotheruser> I'd include some...
16:08 < justanotheruser> jk
16:10 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:11 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
16:38 < fenn> nmz787: how does metal clay toughness and tensile strength compare to the equivalent bulk metal?
16:41 < kanzure> https://soundcloud.com/ilyadeep/ilya-gerus-alireza-dp
16:41 < fenn> mitsubishi precious metal clay looks to be around 10-20ksi (about the same as epoxies) but that isn't an engineering alloy
16:48 < fenn> kanzure your music taste is improving
16:49 < kanzure> https://soundcloud.com/ilyadeep/ilya-gerus-vague-hallucinations-original-mix
16:50 < fenn> too bad i can't just paste the url in mocp
16:51 < kanzure> youtube-dl or cclive should be able to get it
16:51 < fenn> yeah
16:52 < fenn> i'm just wondering if the computer world will ever not be fractured and broken
16:53 < kanzure> would probably have to be something about a set of principles for expectations and estimations that everyone would have to design around, so that they can avoid making unreasonable expectations of systems or implementations
16:53 < fenn> an expectation of making the data available would be a good start
16:54 < fenn> youtube-dl is one hell of a compatibility layer
16:54 < fenn> it has 7 pages of options
16:55 < fenn> it's designed to actively circuvent limiting measures
16:55 < kanzure> 904 open issues https://github.com/rg3/youtube-dl/issues
16:56 < kanzure> hell i should just put paperbot in there
16:57 < justanotheruser> kanzure: they might appreciate it. you should ask
16:58 < kanzure> i'd want to wait until i finish up unit tests for paperbot v2 first
16:58 < kanzure> and then switch over to actively using paperbot v2
16:58 < kanzure> which has just been sitting there. all alone.
16:59 < justanotheruser> kanzure: wait, you didn't give paperbot the ability to feel loneliness did you?
16:59 < nmz787> fenn: not sure, but you can probably find more info by looking into MIM (metal injection molding)
16:59 < kanzure> honestly i forget
17:00 < fenn> youtube-dl  --list-extractors | wc -l
17:00 < fenn> 451
17:00 < nmz787> fenn: in both cases it seems like organic binders, two stages (a wax and a polymer), and metal particles of varying mixtures
17:00 < nmz787> fenn: and then again in both cases, kiln curing accompanied by some shrinkage
17:01 < fenn> 30% shrinkage is a lot but what's more important is the uniformity of shrinkage
17:01 < nmz787> the few youtube vids on MIM seemed very nice
17:01 < kanzure> hah what
17:01 < nmz787> like a scale factor would be fine
17:01 < nmz787> g2g now though
17:09 < justanotheruser> paperbot:  http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/852
17:09 < justanotheruser> can we ban paperlooker :P
17:09 < justanotheruser> pls don't make me failtab
17:14 < kanzure> .title
17:14 < yoleaux> Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2014/852
17:14 < kanzure> hmm i don't know if paperbot supports this
17:14 < kanzure> zotero seems to https://github.com/zotero/translators/blob/master/ePrint%20IACR.js
17:15 < justanotheruser> someone posted in -wizards
17:22 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
18:05 -!- |b| [~|d|@ip68-107-37-158.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:07 -!- JingoFett [~|d|@ip68-107-37-158.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
18:08 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:09 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Changing host]
18:09 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:20 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@S0106b81619e8ecee.gv.shawcable.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:47 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mizesietfccgspgb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
18:47 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
18:47 < kanzure> i need more monitors
18:47 < kanzure> and keyboards
19:05 -!- Vutral__ [~ss@176.10.107.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:09 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:12 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:12 -!- maaku is now known as Guest56072
19:15 < fenn> more ... brains ...
19:15 < fenn> braaains
19:16 -!- rak[1] [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:18 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:19 < kanzure> the problem is too disjoint and stuff.
19:21 < kanzure> also, lulls are annoying
19:22 < fenn> i do it for the lulls
19:22 -!- rak[1] [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:23 < fenn> look, fresh brains
19:24 < kanzure> those are lolz or lulz not lulls
19:25 < kanzure> i'm not sure how to organize all this bitcoin information
19:25 < kanzure> even in https://github.com/kanzure/bitcoin-incentives/blob/master/bitcoin-incentives.tex
19:26 < kanzure> a list without numbered or named entries is a bad idea
19:27 < kanzure> it's a very foreign method of software development
19:29 < fenn> so give them numbers
19:29 < fenn> what does \begin{enumerate} do
19:29 < kanzure> oh right, numbers.
19:29 < kanzure> it does numbering things.
19:29 < kanzure> but still.
19:30 < fenn> do the numbers change if you add or remove stuff?
19:30 < kanzure> wouldn't it be better to have some method of cranking these out automatically instead of it just being "whatever bryan happens to remember or come across or intuit"?
19:30 < kanzure> yes :(
19:30 < kanzure> \item{name} works i think?
19:31 < fenn> you're essentially doing observations on a thought experiment
19:32 < fenn> you can also observe actual in-the-wild behavior and infer incentives from that
19:32 < fenn> sometimes things you think will be incentives, aren't, and for no good reason
19:32 < fenn> like, people are stupid
19:33 < fenn> or they just dont know any better
19:33 < kanzure> these should all be explicit though
19:33 < kanzure> and the code should make them as explicit as possible
19:34 < kanzure> and then optionally give you some stupid parameters for tweaking things if possible
19:34 < fenn> what about "you get mad propz for running a node"
19:34 < kanzure> do you?
19:35 < fenn> have you interviewed miners about what they do and why
19:35 < kanzure> i have talked with miners regularly for quite a while now
19:35 < fenn> according to traditional economic theory linux never should have existed
19:35 < kanzure> but not interviewed, not really
19:36 < fenn> so i think it's unreasonable to expect you can discover all existing incentives just by thinking real hard
19:36 < kanzure> lukejr operates eligius and he hangs out in wizards and often mentions what sort of custom tweaks he has made re: incentives for his pool
19:36 < kanzure> eligius is an unfair example because it's probably the best maintained pool (probably the only one with a bitcoin core developer wizard person hanging around?)
19:46 < fenn> why is 40 TBC == 0.04194304 BTC
19:48 < kanzure> TBC?
19:48 < kanzure> is this an altcoin?
19:48 < fenn> i dont know what TBC is but apparently 0.1 TBC == 0.00004096 BTC
19:48 < kanzure> oh this might be testnet bitcoin? yeah they had to reset testnet a few times becaues people started trading testnet bitcoin for real money
19:48 < kanzure> so now they are on testnet3
19:49 < kanzure> anyway there's also a mode called regtest, which is like testnet except infinitely easier to test against because it doesn't require testnet's blockchain (starts at block 0 or 1?)
19:49 < fenn> its being used as payout for eligius mining reward
19:50 < fenn> doesnt make sense to me why that would use testnet
19:50 < fenn> i also found some wackjob numbering system called "tonal bitcoin"
19:51 < kanzure> ah, then it's probably not testnet. you best go ask in #bitcoin i suppose (but there's sharks in those waters).
19:51 -!- |b| is now known as JingoFett
19:52  * kanzure considers http://people.xiph.org/~greg/simple_verifyable_execution.txt
19:52 < fenn> i'm basically treating all this like reading a foreign language
19:52 < fenn> "hey i know that word"
19:52 < kanzure> "that is not a word i would ever have any interest in knowing"
20:01 < fenn> a hash is like an exploded tater tot right
20:02 < fenn> did you actually understand that last link
20:03 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:58e4:dbb7:29ec:b236] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:04 < fenn> it made sense up until "Now lets define an adaptation key for two wires."
20:04 < kanzure> well, i was reading that link while also watching some tv, replying to an email, selecting fine music, and double checking some thoughts about sidechains.pdf -- so essentially, no not yet.
20:06 < kanzure> and also apparently contributing to https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoinninja/commits/master
20:06 < kanzure> although i don't remember doing that
20:07 < kanzure> i never really understood wikipedia's explanation of zero-knowledge proofs, it was always something about some stupid tunnels and caves.
20:07 < fenn> i never really understood proofs
20:07 < fenn> it always just seemed like a let down, or some kind of cheat
20:08 < kanzure> these sorts of proofs seem very different from the traditional theorem kind
20:08 < kanzure> they actually seem a little bit more accessible to me.
20:09 < fenn> i havent read it yet but i expect a zero knowledge proof is just a machine that you know will work even though you dont know all the inputs
20:09 < kanzure> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-72540-4_4#page-1
20:10 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f8a545c66f53888e6690517d9481af92.txt
20:12 < kanzure> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-540-72540-4_4.pdf
20:12 < paperbot> XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 524, in parse_html)
20:13 < kanzure> <iframe src="https://library.rit.edu/depts/assets/ezproxy/ip-check.php" class="iframe" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true">This library resource requires additional authentication for use from off-campus or because of specific licensing agreements.</iframe>
20:15 < fenn> i guess its more like "prove you are actually my friend from high school and not an impostor from an intelligence agency who studied his dossier"
20:17 < fenn> the more unlikely facts he knows, the less likely it is that he is an impostor
20:24 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:25  * fenn sleeps
20:38 < kanzure> fun stuff: http://nozdr.ru/data/media/biblioteka/kolxo3/Cs_Computer_science/CsLn_Lecture%20notes/
20:45 < kanzure> .title http://www.eroids.com/
20:45 < yoleaux> Steroid Source Reviews. Check your supplier!
20:49 < kanzure> alright let's do a group buy
20:49 < kanzure> who's in?
20:58 -!- kumavis_ [~kumavis@107-219-148-42.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:03 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:11 -!- yash [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:12 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:58e4:dbb7:29ec:b236] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
21:22 -!- Guest56072 [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:24 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:24 -!- maaku is now known as Guest6823
21:25 -!- Guest6823 [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:02 < kanzure> "Proudly processing 2 billion nops per second since 2003."
22:07 -!- paperlooker [~tiktaalik@50-79-188-182-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
22:14 -!- yash [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:18 -!- maaku_ [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:08 -!- bbrittain_ [~bbrittain@172.245.212.12] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:09 -!- DonnchaC1 [~DonnchaC@windmill.donncha.is] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:10 -!- bbrittain [~bbrittain@172.245.212.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
23:10 -!- bbrittain_ is now known as bbrittain
23:10 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-71-191-174-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:10 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:10 -!- DonnchaC_ [~DonnchaC@windmill.donncha.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:12 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@66.161.138.110] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:13 -!- Burn_ [~Burn@pool-71-191-174-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
23:13 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:15 -!- maaku_ [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:15 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:15 -!- maaku is now known as Guest33913
23:16 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:19 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:21 -!- Guest33913 is now known as maaku
23:26 -!- Vutral_ [~ss@31.7.56.132] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:49 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.54.84] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:56 -!- TC [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Thu Oct 23 00:00:25 2014