--- Log opened Wed Nov 12 00:00:48 2014
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04:30 < fenn> hum i'm surprised nobody said anything to tallakahath about iodine deficiency
04:30 < yoleaux> 02:05Z <kanzure> fenn: you are bad at picking okay times to sleep
04:30 < fenn> wah
04:32 < fenn> or just hypothyroidism
04:33 < fenn> i need to start keeping dossiers on people, how the hell am i supposed to keep all this straight
04:33 < fenn> genehacker is in oregon now?
04:35 < fenn> i mean, better dossiers
04:36 < fenn> and then do spaced-repetition memorization of names and critical info
04:36 < fenn> yeah, that's the ticket
04:39 < kanzure> my system does not require spaced repetition, just relentless stalking
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04:45 < fenn> sometimes it freaks me out when people are still awake after i've gone to sleep and woken up, like they had never slept at all
04:46 < fenn> then i remember that everyone just sleeps less than i do
04:46 < eudoxia> i have a people.yaml that i never really bothered to fill
04:46 < fenn> pff "effective August 1, 2007, the DEA now regulates Lugol's solution (and, in fact, all iodine solutions containing greater than 2.2% iodine) as a List I precursor because it may potentially be used in the illicit production of methamphetamine."
04:47 < fenn> pretty soon everything will be illegal except for corn syrup and broadcast television
04:47 < kanzure> it does however require that data goes into the file though, eudoxia
04:47 < kanzure> important part of my system
04:47 < kanzure> fenn: you should read the backlog
04:48 < fenn> i also have a people.yaml, and i've read the backlog
04:48 < fenn> i tend to only put canonical data like telephone numbers and shit in it tho
04:49 < fenn> i have a tag list but i forget to update it
04:49 < kanzure> yeah i can't say that my format is optimal
04:49 < fenn> does jot let you append tags to an existing bookmark?
04:49 < fenn> i'm wanting something like jot but for people
04:49 < fenn> jotmuch
04:50 < kanzure> jot appends correctly
04:51 < eudoxia> does jotmuch make each bookmark a single file?
04:52 < kanzure> no, it uses xapian
04:52 < kanzure> although when editing it dumps out yaml
04:52 < fenn> couldnt it do both?
04:52 < kanzure> you can force software to do anything
04:53 < kanzure> jot needs a bit of a rewrite. right now it's all in one file.
04:53 < fenn> i mean xapian is just an index, but it's indexing _something_
04:53 < kanzure> lso site:github.com seems to work but not site:github.com/bitcoin or inurl
04:53 < kanzure> *also
04:54 < fenn> "Bookmarks are YAML documents." conflicts with "Export bookmarks as YAML with the dump command"
04:55 < eudoxia> yeah, what i mean is, are the bookmarks stored each as a yaml file in some directory?
04:55 < eudoxia> that seems to be the implication from the README
04:55 < kanzure> no, db.add_document(doc)
04:56 < kanzure> where db = db or xapian.WritableDatabase(DATABASE_DIR, xapian.DB_CREATE_OR_OPEN)
04:56 < fenn> it's totally possible that it just stores yaml as strings in a database
04:57 < fenn> yaml "documents" are technically just strings separated by the string "---"
04:58 < eudoxia> i like my system of having a single bookmarks.yaml with the nested directories and bookmarks and just turning that to HTML
04:58 < fenn> how do you have nested directories but only one file? huh?
04:59 < kanzure> er, what's nested about it?
05:00 < eudoxia> http://i.imgur.com/oJQD0P8.png
05:01 < kanzure> it's not doing that
05:01 < kanzure> oh, i did not see "my"
05:01 < kanzure> your system does not have tags
05:02 < kanzure> and you will suffer ontological paralysis
05:02 < eudoxia> a tree is good enough for now
05:02 < kanzure> also, the value of sub is a list with only a single item? why?
05:02 < fenn> seconding ontological paralysis
05:03 < fenn> yeah the list is not necessary, but it adds some kind of visual symmetry i guess
05:04 < eudoxia> "sub" makes the node a directory
05:06 < eudoxia> hm now i think that could be made simpler
05:06 < fenn> the "-" mark before directory labels is unnecessary
05:07 < eudoxia> yes, i could replace "- label: Dir name\n sub: ..." with "- Dir name: ..."
05:07 < fenn> o wait i'm wrong
05:08 < kanzure> instead of a list you can just do a dictionary with "dirname: ..."
05:09 < kanzure> "Note: When mapping ports in the HOST:CONTAINER format, you may experience erroneous results when using a container port lower than 60, because YAML will parse numbers in the format xx:yy as sexagesimal (base 60). For this reason, we recommend always explicitly specifying your port mappings as strings."
05:11 < kanzure> .title http://scoms.hypotheses.org/301
05:11 < yoleaux> France signs a five-year national deal with Elsevier | Sciences communes
05:11 < kanzure> commentary https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8594706
05:12 < genehacker> so elsevier is free in all of france?
05:13 < superkuh> Time to get a French VPS.
05:14 < fenn> haha kiss your job goodbye NEETs http://youtube.com/watch?v=HdZ3y3tVtTU
05:14 < fenn> .title
05:14 < yoleaux> Bakery goods POS visual recognition system on trial in Tokyo bakery #DigInfo - YouTube
05:15 < fenn> robots to bake the bread, robots to buy the bread, robots to eat the bread
05:16 < kragenjaviersita> nnets?
05:16 < kragenjaviersita> neets?
05:16 < fenn> .wik NEET
05:16 < yoleaux> "A NEET or neet is a young person who is "Not in Education, Employment, or Training". The acronym NEET was first used in the United Kingdom but its use has spread to other countries including Japan, South Korea and Taiwan." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET
05:16 < eudoxia> funfact: that's from brain corp, founded by eugene izhikevich, who figures prominently in the WBE roadmap
05:16 < genehacker> dammit, why can't there be 'all you can eat' 'cable package' that  regular consumers can buy into
05:16 < kanzure> there's deepdyve and readcube but it's still hideously expensive
05:16 < kanzure> and they just send you pngs of each page instead of pdfs
05:16 < fenn> in japan you are either a bum/slacker, a student, or a salaryman
05:16 < genehacker> ugh disgusting
05:17 < genehacker> well with that system, they haven't eliminated a job, they have just made it require less skill, which means it's high time for all those NEETs to work
05:18 < fenn> eudoxia: wow the same guy who made "The Izhikevich model neuron was developed as an efficient, powerful alternative to the integrate and fire model."
05:18 < fenn> now i am very interested in how this bakery software works
05:18 < eudoxia> yeah the izhikevich model guy
05:19 < kragenjaviersita> .wik Izhikevich model
05:19 < yoleaux> "The theta model (otherwise known as the Ermentrout-Kopell canonical model) is a "biological neuron model" originally used to model neurons in the animal Aplysia, but later became useful in various fields of computational neuroscience. The model is particularly well suited to mathematically describe a process involving rapid oscillations  …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theta_model
05:19 < eudoxia> i choose to believe it's an uploaded rat
05:19 < kragenjaviersita> "rapid oscillations"?
05:19 < fenn> .wik aplysia
05:19 < yoleaux> "Aplysia is a genus of medium-sized to extremely large sea slugs, specifically sea hares, which are one clade of large sea slugs, marine gastropod mollusks. The general description of sea hares can be found in the article on the superfamily Aplysioidea." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aplysia
05:19 < fenn> sea hares!
05:20 < kragenjaviersita> then shave them off
05:20 < fenn> it does look sort of like a bunny
05:20 < fenn> with tentacles
05:20 < genehacker> so neural networks, best way to do them for neuroevolutionary learning?
05:21 < kanzure> there are many open source implementations out there
05:21 < kragenjaviersita> I don't know, I think whoever gave this taxon the name "sea hare" was taking hallucinogens at the time
05:21 < kanzure> really it depends on your data set and what you want to be doing, genehacker
05:21 < genehacker> fastest + integrable with netlogo
05:21 < fenn> kanzure dont you see the similarity to a bunny? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Aplysia_californica.jpg
05:22 < kanzure> looks like something out of scp
05:22 < eudoxia> where do you see the bunny, it looks like a slug
05:22 < kragenjaviersita> looks like a scrotum with warts
05:23 < eudoxia> i wonder what it tastes like
05:24 < fenn> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Bi1t0KO9bwQ/TbDye5xWuJI/AAAAAAAAAR8/PMe9c9bHD2A/s1600/cthulhubunny001.jpg
05:25 < fenn> so anyway what else is Brain Corporation up to?
05:26 < eudoxia> they have a nicer website now
05:26 < eudoxia> oh god it's hijacked my scrolling, the horror, the horror
05:27 < fenn> wait a minute, why did .wik return "ermentrout-kopell canonical model"
05:27 < kanzure> genehacker: http://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/models/ArtificialNeuralNet-Multilayer
05:28 < kanzure> why netlogo
05:29 < fenn> because neural networks. and logic
05:29 < kanzure> thank you professor awesome
05:29 < fenn> The "Logo" part is because NetLogo is a dialect of the Logo language.
05:29 < fenn> "Net" is meant to evoke the decentralized, interconnected nature of the phenomena you can model with NetLogo, including network phenomena. It also refers to HubNet, the multiuser participatory simulation environment included in NetLogo.
05:30 < fenn> the turtle graphics language?
05:30 < fenn> "Logo is a multi-paradigm adaptation and dialect of Lisp, a functional programming language"
05:31 < fenn> "Logo" is not an acronym. It was derived from the Greek logos meaning word or "thought"
05:31 < eudoxia> what do neuralnetworks have to do with logo
05:32 < fenn> seymour papert
05:32 < genehacker> because with netlogo, I don't have to start from scratch, it has nice functions for making multiagent simulations
05:34 < fenn> oh i totally misunderstood the question "why netlogo"
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05:35 < fenn> i thought it was an etymology request
05:39 < genehacker> although if there is something out there that is better for doing multiagent stuff I'd like to know
05:39 < fenn> genehacker: the guy who wrote NEAT is (was?) at austin
05:40 < fenn> oh wait you're in oregon
05:40 < genehacker> NEAT?
05:41 < genehacker> if it is agent based and recent I might know him
05:41 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeuroEvolution_of_Augmented_Topologies
05:41 < fenn> doesn't seem to explicitly have anything to do with agents
05:42 < fenn> "The NEAT approach begins with a perceptron-like feed-forward network of only input neurons and output neurons. As evolution progresses through discrete steps, the complexity of the network's topology may grow, either by inserting a new neuron into a connection path, or by creating a new connection between (formerly unconnected) neurons.
05:44 < fenn> HyperNEAT has been used for "multi-agent learning", checkers, legged robot control, evolving 3D printable objects
05:44 < fenn> tho i gotta say i am not impressed with endlessforms.com
05:45 < fenn> most of these approaches seem to suffer from a lack of input data
05:45 < fenn> genehacker have you read "on intelligence"?
05:46 < genehacker> no
05:46 < fenn> if you're getting into neural networks, it might be worth your while, just so you have a basis to grow your understanding from
05:47 < fenn> do you prefer mobi or pdf
05:47 < genehacker> pdf
05:47 < yorick> epub!
05:48 < genehacker> you can't display a full 3d cad model in epub
05:48 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/Jeff%20Hawkins%20-%20On%20Intelligence.pdf
05:48 < fenn> good
05:50 < fenn> i want to hook something like NEAT into puredata (the music synthesizer breadboard software) so i can watch/listen to it reacting to the environment in real time
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05:51 < genehacker> and I want to evolve some really dumb robots
05:52 < fenn> just go to the bar :)
05:54 < kanzure> how's the robot revolt going
05:54 < fenn> i wonder if the MIRI people are wringing their hands over this stuff or what
05:55 < kanzure> no
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05:55 < kanzure> but pester steve if you want
05:55 < fenn> so it's just faith in good old fashioned symbolic logic then?
05:56 < kanzure> lots of aixi
05:56 < fenn> .wik aixi
05:56 < yoleaux> "AIXI (English pronunciation: /'ai̯k͡siː/) is a mathematical formalism for artificial general intelligence. It combines Solomonoff induction with sequential decision theory. AIXI was first proposed by Marcus Hutter in 2000 and the results below are proved in Hutter's 2005 book Universal Artificial Intelligence." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIXI
05:56 < fenn> this means nothing to me
05:56 < eudoxia> aixi got so much attention from the miri people, when are they going to build an aixi bitcoin trading bot or something
05:57 < eudoxia> yes i know it's hyperboliexponentially complex, but some scaled-down versions run
05:57 < kanzure> ask steve
05:57 < fenn> steve is really bad at explaining things
05:57 < kanzure> .title http://genofond.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7532
05:57 < yoleaux> Library Genesis: Miner's Hut / Барак старателей • View topic - Fundraiser for an additional heavy-duty LG-server
05:57 < kanzure> they are asking around for donations again
05:57 < kanzure> 1ENFY4h7ntGZbqwcwpQtXVFJrPnfXRHQLe
05:58 < kanzure> Yandex money: 41001819963532
05:58 < kanzure> PayPal: 11_2004@bk.ru
05:58 < kanzure> Webmoney: Z419450679979, R363698913531
05:59 < kanzure> "Plan B is encapsulated in LG: this is the support of all p2p networks, files in them are unkillable. There is plan C as well, Usenet, mostly implemented. Plan D is being discussed."
05:59 < kanzure> "To find books after we die, download the database once in a while, you will need book hashes from there, they'll give you all the power. Download torrents and backup *.uzb to access books on Usenet."
05:59 < fenn> plan D is the doomsday device
06:00 < kanzure> plan k is kidnap all the librarians
06:01 < fenn> pan l is liberate all the librarians?
06:01 < kragenjaviersita> LG?
06:01 < eudoxia> libgen
06:01 < fenn> library genesis
06:01 < kanzure> this donation request was circulated by eugen leitl, glad he's watching
06:02  * eudoxia should actually read postbiota emails
06:02 < fenn> has anyone been using AI like things to sort books by digitization quality?
06:02 < fenn> there are a lot of databases with 10 copies of the same book, but it can't be pruned because then you risk dropping the better copy accidentally
06:03 < kragenjaviersita> and a lot of the copies are terrible
06:04 < fenn> but a computer should be able to know that books don't have words like, uh, <typical OCR error>
06:04 < kragenjaviersita> if it did then it wouldn't be a typical OCR error
06:04 < fenn> but no
06:05 < fenn> hrm.
06:05 < fenn> given two copies, one that has a high percentage of unrecognized spellings, choose the other
06:05 < fenn> but OCR error isnt really the problem, it's bad encoding
06:06 < eudoxia> you could also just test whether the pdf has text at all or is just a collection of images
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06:11 < kragenjaviersita> not necessarily, fenn.  the one with the lower percentage of unrecognized spellings might just have had its OCR more aggressively spell-checked
06:11 < kragenjaviersita> like what you would do if the images were blurry and you had to guess more
06:12 < fenn> sure, this is a simplistic algorithm which is why i was asking about "AI like things" which would hopefully get more accurate results
06:12 < kragenjaviersita> you need to be sure your assessment process is more intelligent than whatever the person who did the OCR in the first place was using to produce it
06:13 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8592414
06:13 < yoleaux> Startups can now buy insurance against threat of patent trolls | Hacker News
06:13 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8591782
06:13 < yoleaux> Intro to Distributed Hash Tables | Hacker News
06:13 < kanzure> .title http://www.freedomlayer.org/articles/dht_intro.html
06:13 < yoleaux> FreedomLayer | Articles | Intro to Distributed Hash Tables (DHTs)
06:13 < fenn> since i dont know what "intelligent" means, i'm going to say something like it needs to evaluate on an orthogonal basis to whatever OCR classification did
06:14 < fenn> DHT is so 2002
06:14 < genehacker> speaking of patents, I've been trying to find the patents for this: www8.hp.com/us/en/commercial-printers/floater/3Dprinting.html
06:15 < genehacker> to see how badly HP is going to mess up the AM industry
06:16 < kragenjaviersita> AM?
06:16 < eudoxia> additive manufacturing?
06:17 < genehacker> yes
06:22 < fenn> genehacker: have you seen it in person or is there some reason you care besides "it's HP"?
06:22 < fenn> i mean thermal inkjet additive process isn't anything new or imaginative
06:23 < fenn> they dont even show product images or example objects
06:23 < genehacker> it's laser sintering without a laser, that doesn't need nitrogen, at a high print rate, in color
06:24 < genehacker> hmmm... that seems to be the case
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06:24 < genehacker> I though HPs website would be better
06:24 < fenn> ok here's one sample object http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeanders/2014/10/29/hps-3d-print-breakthrough-could-push-rivals-out-of-business/
06:25 < genehacker> http://www.3ders.org//articles/20141029-hp-wants-to-rewrite-the-rules-of-3d-printing-with-new-multi-jet-fusion-tech.html
06:25 < fenn> is it just colored wax?
06:25 < genehacker> http://www.3ders.org//articles/20141029-hp-wants-to-rewrite-the-rules-of-3d-printing-with-new-multi-jet-fusion-tech.html
06:26 < genehacker> no, according to some math I did it's probably nylon
06:26 < fenn> hmm yeah it says powdered nylon in the forbes article
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06:27 < fenn> it uses vats of powder and jets fusable binder onto them
06:27 < genehacker> not binder
06:27 < fenn> uh, susceptor then
06:28 < genehacker> ink, black ink
06:28 < fenn> .wik susceptor
06:28 < yoleaux> "A susceptor is a material used for its ability to absorb electromagnetic energy and convert it to heat (which is sometimes designed to be re-emitted as infrared thermal radiation)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susceptor
06:28 < genehacker> yeah
06:28 < kanzure> suscepteum
06:29 < fenn> is that your new altcoin
06:29 < fenn> for susceptible people
06:29 < genehacker> it's using teh same damn inkjet and ink as a 2d printer
06:29 < kanzure> http://digitalinterface.blogspot.com/2014/03/strangecoin-proposal-for-nonlinear.html
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06:30 < fenn> "readily acted upon;"
06:31 < fenn> they're not really showing off the full-color capabilities with the sample prints
06:31 < fenn> blue! and red! and yellow!
06:31 < genehacker> in the real world, most people don't care about color
06:31 < fenn> not true
06:32 < genehacker> for industrial applications
06:32 < fenn> if HP wants to increase the 3d printer market size they have to cater to non-industrial applications
06:32 < fenn> the industrial market is saturated and has been for 20 years
06:32 < kanzure> i wonder if there's a field of study like "theoretical microbiology" where people predict certain types of microbes that should exist in certain environments (living off of certain energy/resource gradients) and then go confirm their suspicions.
06:32 < fenn> if you're building an oil refinery you can afford a laser sintering machine
06:33 < fenn> or maybe that's an industrial fermenter..
06:34 < fenn> kanzure that's basically the entire study of extremophiles
06:35 < genehacker> so the thing is this thing is faster and probably cheaper, which means more applications can use 3d printing
06:35 < genehacker> the reason for no fullcolor capabiility could be a software limitation
06:35 < fenn> it looks identical in process and result to some stuff i saw many years ago
06:35 < fenn> the only newness is that HP is behind it
06:36 < genehacker> you mean z-corp stuff?
06:36 < genehacker> z-corp prints are structurally worthless
06:36 < fenn> not z-corp
06:37 < kanzure> oh right, people go looking for extremophiles
06:37 < kanzure> but aren't those sort of obvious?
06:37 < fenn> selective heat sintering
06:37 < kanzure> "stuff ain't supposed to live there, hurr"
06:37 < genehacker> which is in color?
06:37 < genehacker> oh inhibition sintering
06:38 < genehacker> the problem with that is the powder doesn't recycle easy
06:38 < fenn> hmm not that either
06:39 < fenn> it's the inverse of inhibition sintering
06:39 < fenn> with a big 500W halogen lamp sweeping across the bed
06:39 < genehacker> the personal factory thing?
06:40 < genehacker> the resolution on that was horrible which is why it failed
06:40 < fenn> no, it's like inhibition sintering except instead of applying something to get rid of the heat, you apply an ink that absorbs the heat
06:41 < genehacker> which is what this is
06:41 < fenn> i dont think it was full color but it doesn't take a genius to realize that humans can't see in infrared
06:42 < fenn> whatever they probably just bought out whoever had developed it
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06:43 < fenn> i wonder if it can be used on metal powders
06:43 < fenn> with inorganic susceptors
06:43 < genehacker> and I think the patent for that was in 2008 wihc means HP could own the market
06:43 < genehacker> SIS works on metal powders
06:44 < fenn> i'm not impressed with the quality of powder stuff actually
06:44 < kragenjaviersita> melting metal powders with random stuff mixed into them tends to compromise their integrity
06:44 < kragenjaviersita> I mean even a few percent of carbon will embrittle iron
06:45 < fenn> even amateur DLP stereolithography is a million times better surface finish
06:45 < kragenjaviersita> amateur DLP stereolithography doesn't use powder?
06:45 < fenn> kragenjaviersita: but for example the stainless sintered powder cores are just used to soak up liquid bronze metal in the end
06:45 < genehacker> yeah, but DLP parts degrade pretty badly with time and fast if you leave them in the sun
06:46 < kragenjaviersita> or it polymerizes resin?
06:46 < fenn> DLP uses UV or blue reactive resin
06:46 < fenn> genehacker: really? i didn't know that
06:46 < kragenjaviersita> fenn: yes, but bronze is also pretty sensitive to impurities
06:47 < fenn> bronze is mostly impurities :P
06:47 < fenn> .wik bronze
06:47 < yoleaux> "Bronze is an alloy consisting primarily of copper and other metals. The addition of other metals (usually tin, sometimes arsenic), produces an alloy much harder than plain copper. The historical period where the archeological record contains many bronze artifacts is known as the Bronze Age." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze
06:47 < genehacker> it's a dirty secret of the process
06:47 < kragenjaviersita> genehacker: that surprises me, because I had a tooth made of UV-reactive resin for many years
06:47 < kragenjaviersita> acrylic
06:47 < kragenjaviersita> the dentist never warned me not to leave my mouth open in the sun
06:48 < fenn> acrylic is non-reactive to UV; maybe there are other monomer resins used...?
06:49 < fenn> polyester?
06:49 < kragenjaviersita> yeah, I don't know how they did it. they told me it was acrylic but I didn't have a Raman spectrometer and now I no longer have the tooth
06:49 < genehacker> to get it to plymerize you need stuff that generates free radicals when exposed to UV, these free radicals get trapped and eventually damage stuff
06:50 < genehacker> or the sensistizer generates freeradicals
06:50 < fenn> so dont add so much sensitizer
06:50 < fenn> or add an antioxidant or free-radical quencher
06:51 < fenn> i thought you had to put it in the sun to finish hardening and react all the sensitizer
06:51 < genehacker> there's also problems with internal stresses that build up in the parts and slowly get released
06:53 < fenn> " the metal of the 12th-century English Gloucester Candlestick is bronze containing a mixture of copper, zinc, tin, lead, nickel, iron, antimony, arsenic with an unusually large amount of silver"
06:53 < kragenjaviersita> really? i'd think that would be a big problem with injection molding but not any of the additive processes
06:54 < kragenjaviersita> the Gloucester Candlestick probably didn't have to have reproducible structural properties
06:54 < genehacker> it is a huge problem in AM
06:55 < kragenjaviersita> where do the stresses come from?
06:55 < kragenjaviersita> I had no idea
06:56 < fenn> in FDM it's due to differential cooling, same as in injection molding, but exaggerated because the process takes much longer
06:57 < genehacker> making layers
06:57 < fenn> i dont see how it would apply to photolithography though because there's no heat-shrinking involved because there's no melting involved
06:58 < genehacker> polymerization causes shrinkage
06:59 < kragenjaviersita> ah
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06:59 < kragenjaviersita> I didn't have any idea about this
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07:01 < kragenjaviersita> I mean I see the shrinkage in these PLA parts
07:01 < fenn> paperbot: http://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924013603000281
07:01 < kragenjaviersita> but I assumed that because the process was so slow it relieved all the stress
07:01 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Study%20of%20shrinkage%20strains%20in%20a%20stereolithography%20cured%20acrylic%20photopolymer%20resin%0A%20.pdf
07:02 < fenn> i only see this one paper
07:04 < fenn> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924013603000281/pdfft?md5=9244c09a67a21e3ca497b3057e0121c3&pid=1-s2.0-S0924013603000281-main.pdf
07:06 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/Study%20of%20shrinkage%20strains%20in%20a%20stereolithography%20cured%20acrylic%20photopolymer%20resin.pdf
07:10 < fenn> table 1 doesn't have sensible units
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07:12 < fenn> i cant tell if this is a real problem or a "we can only detect it using interferometry" level effect
07:12 < fenn> i don't see anyone complaining about it though
07:13 < kragenjaviersita> I'd think that you could measure it with polarimetry pretty easily
07:15 < fenn> i think they're measuring the warpage, not the actual strain
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07:33 < ParahSailin_> people have been trying to come up with expanding monomers
07:41 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924013603000281/pdfft?md5=9244c09a67a21e3ca497b3057e0121c3&pid=1-s2.0-S0924013603000281-main.pdf
07:43 < kanzure> can someone just fix paperbot ugh
07:44 < kanzure> revert nmz787's changes if anything
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07:46 < kanzure> bbrittain: ask ParahSailin_
07:47 < ParahSailin_> i havent heard of onecodex
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07:48 < kanzure> yes but what about equivalents
07:51 < ParahSailin_> i dunno what they do
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07:53 < bbrittain> I'll ask some folks at work what they think
07:53 < ParahSailin_> i guess they have something faster than blast?
07:54 < bbrittain> thats what it looks like
07:54 < bbrittain> but really, blast is usually good enough
07:54 < ParahSailin_> there are lots of things faster than blast, they need to be more specific
07:54 < bbrittain> why would I pay for that?
07:54  * bbrittain wouldn't
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07:56 < ParahSailin_> well if you have a metagenomic library of short reads and you want taxonomic classification, then you need stuff
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07:57 < ParahSailin_> i know of people who use bwt for that, and i know of people who precomputed an index of 36mers for a huge number of things from nr/nt
07:58 < ParahSailin_> i wouldnt trust a secret algorithm for accuracy
07:58 < ParahSailin_> how do i verify it
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08:00 < bbrittain> dunno
08:00 < bbrittain> there is a lot of software which I don't know why bio people trust it
08:00  * bbrittain shrugs
08:01 < bbrittain> ParahSailin_: what do you do?
08:01 < ParahSailin_> bioinfo crap
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08:03 < bbrittain> ParahSailin_: is that not what you wanna do?
08:03 < ParahSailin_> its fine
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08:18 < bbrittain> Microsoft opensourced .net, and humanity harpooned a comet
08:18 < bbrittain> today is a good day
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08:19 < ParahSailin_> msft bought mono and opensourced it?
08:20 < ParahSailin_> didnt they buy xamarin?
08:20 < kanzure> "A simple, highly commented, rootkit which attacks GCC and Python" https://github.com/mrrrgn/simple-rootkit
08:20 < kanzure> https://github.com/mrrrgn/simple-rootkit/blob/master/simple-rootkit.c
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09:08 < kanzure> fenn: gitian stuff can be asked about in #bitcoin-dev and there's also things that sometimes happen in #bitcoin
09:08 < kanzure> (er, like now)
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09:11 < tallakahath> fenn: I have no reason to have iodine deficiency unless I have malabsorption, and may have iodine excess. Thyroid function is normal according to T3, T4, and TSH levels.
09:12 < tallakahath> (low end of 'normal' for T3 and high end of 'normal' for TSH but within bounds)
09:13 < fenn> tallakahath: good to know. one thing i didn't pick up on from the logs was your fat intake. fat is important for after meal satiety and can be neglected in various dietary regimes
09:14 < fenn> especially since you do calorie counting and this can lead to avoiding fat
09:16 < tallakahath> fenn: Keto man. Keto.
09:16 < fenn> also too much beta-ergic drugs (caffeine, clen) can make you have anxiety attacks long term
09:17 < tallakahath> I've had... one true panic-attack ever, and that was distinctly caused by me misreading a research result. :P
09:17 < fenn> hehe
09:17 < tallakahath> Even now on my 'low carb' (<=100 g net carbs/day, focus on fibrous vegetables and complex carbohydrates) setup I get ~60 g of fat/day
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09:18 < tallakahath> Er I lied, make that 50g
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09:20 < fenn> i eat more fat than that and i'm not "keto"
09:21 < tallakahath> What's your TDEE, tho? This is roughly ~40% of my kcal makeup
09:21 < fenn> i have no idea
09:21 < tallakahath> When I was on keto I was on closer to 70 g of fat/day
09:22 < tallakahath> For my height/weight both of those values should be more than enough for the needs of my endocrine system and satiety
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09:23 < fenn> i mostly sit around and use a computer, i'm not pedaling a bike taxi or anything
09:23 < JayDugger> Total Daily EE?
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09:23 < fenn> the number of electrical engineers you eat every day
09:23 < JayDugger> Eww...
09:23 < tallakahath> The units made sense in the original lit. :)
09:23 < JayDugger> I've seen what they eat.
09:24 < tallakahath> Those were darker times. Before electricity was harnessed, EEs weren't very useful, so they were raised mostly for slaughter
09:24 < fenn> sad but true
09:24 < JayDugger> That makes sense. Kinder than drowning them I guess.
09:25 < tallakahath> Back then, though, they were at least allowed to roam free, and had wide swaths of land to roam around. Now they're confined to tiny little research labs and get very little sun or movement; its quite cruel really.
09:25 < kanzure> that's what the pacing hallways are for
09:25 < tallakahath> Hardly the same.
09:25 < JayDugger> And the prods and fences.
09:26 < tallakahath> I wouldn't see my roommate for days at a time, freshman year, because the EE building had some well-stocked vending machines, a shower, a good sleepin' couch, and the EE stockroom, sooooo...
09:26 < fenn> now i'm thinking of "technology parks" as a sort of healthy happy pen like in the addiction study "Rat Park"
09:29 < tallakahath> But does this come to the same, terrifying end of Rat Utopia?
09:29 < Guest34189> fenn: thanks for the On Intelligence link, it's been on my list to read
09:30 < tallakahath> There were distinct times during my undergrad that I became convinced that college/uni were all a sham, and we were all actually mentally deficient, and they'd built this whole little ecosystem for us to play around in and pretend the nonsense were spouting made any sense and pretend that we were all smart kids or something, and we'd 'graduate' and the illusion would be over
09:30 < tallakahath> BUt now I'm getting pessimistic *and* procrastinating on going to class
09:30 < kanzure> Guest34189: you should bug fenn about capability representation
09:30 -!- Guest34189 is now known as maaku
09:30 < kanzure> tallakahath: pessimism is a virtue
09:31 < maaku> capability representation?
09:31 < kanzure> the thing that your programming language is supposed to be reasoning about and doing estimations about
09:31 < kanzure> for engineering planning
09:31 < kanzure> the "details" part.
09:31  * kanzure goes back to pretending to fix SelectCoins
09:32 < yorick> tallakahath: weren't there rat utopias that didn't fail?
09:32 < maaku> oh i thought you were talking about this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability-based_security
09:32 < maaku> what's wrong with SelectCoins?
09:32 < kanzure> just some unimplemented stuff
09:33 < kanzure> i don't want to have to do signing in the same wallet
09:33 < kanzure> so i want to give it a list of unspents to assume are under key control
09:33 < tallakahath> yorick: Yes, but I believe context specifies the ones that did.
09:34 < kanzure> also i might have a list of unsigned transactions to feed into it for it to make assumptions about (these transactions are unsigned and therefore not in a mempool or nothin')
09:35 < kanzure> actually i figure most of this will probably involve me editing createrawtransaction or implementing a new rpc command
09:36 < maaku> kanzure: it might be better to just pull out the coin selection logic and make that accessible
09:37 < fenn> Rat Park was an addiction study with plenty of space for the rats; (not enough time for them to breed) but around the same time there was another study which ended up with all sorts of "sexual deviancy" and antisocial preening behaviors
09:37 < kanzure> maaku: pull out coin selection stuff into a rpc command?
09:37 < maaku> kanzure: for what you're doing, yeah
09:37 < maaku> with a flag to use wallet addresses or not
09:38 < maaku> i don't know, it really depends on your application
09:38 < kanzure> right.. i don't know how i am going to do the "here's the list of outputs to consider" or something.
09:38 < kanzure> well, it's basically an "offline" wallet. signing is done somewhere.. else.. and i don't want to implement my own wallet really.
09:39 < maaku> the general assumption on #bitcoin-dev is that for these applications they implement their own coin selection logic
09:39 < maaku> bitcoind's isn't very smart anyways
09:39 < kanzure> are there any good implementations that i can look at?
09:39 < kanzure> ideally separate implementations in their own library somewhere
09:39 < maaku> well bitcoinj has one, as does every other wallet library i'm sure
09:40 < maaku> but you could probably roll your own. it's a form of the knapsack selection problem
09:40 < kanzure> i'll probably be using bitcoind's transaction index and utxo index etc
09:41 < kanzure> because i'd rather just use bitcoind's implementation of transaction indexing, since it handles reorgs just fine etc
09:41 < maaku> kanzure: if you can't make a wallet by calling rpcs against bitcoin for querying those indices, it's a bug
09:41 < maaku> although i'm pretty sure you can't :)
09:41 < kanzure> what are the blockers there?
09:41 < maaku> there are some missing rpcs, just no one has written them
09:41 < kanzure> which ones do you have in mind?
09:42 < maaku> well e.g. i don't think there's a way to query blocks for transactions
09:42 < maaku> you can do that on the p2p protocol using bloom filters
09:42 < maaku> but there's no rpc for that
09:42 < kanzure> i don't think i need that one
09:42 < maaku> how do you know your transactions then?
09:42 < kanzure> ideally i don't
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09:43 < kanzure> notify hooks might be enough there
09:43 < kanzure> the existing ones, i mean
09:44 < maaku> but the outputs aren't being tracked by bitcoind, right?
09:44 < maaku> because you don't have the signing keys in the wallet
09:44 < kanzure> i would be okay with bitcoind tracking those outputs anyway
09:44 < maaku> are you using the watch-only address patch?
09:44 < kanzure> not yet, but i am thinking about it
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09:47 < fenn> bitcoin makes me sad
09:47 < maaku> ?
09:47 < fenn> it's so blah
09:47 < maaku> that's so descriptive
09:47 < fenn> i haven't figured it out yet
09:48 < kanzure> which thing are you talking about.. bitcoind's p2p protocol, bitcoin-qt, proof-of-work, bitcoind, etc.?
09:48 < kanzure> a lot of things are called "bitcoin"
09:49 < fenn> all the problems it's trying to solve are about people trying to screw over other people
09:49 < fenn> and in the process is makes even more problems like that
09:49 < kanzure> more problems like what
09:49 < fenn> "bad incentives"
09:49 < kanzure> bitcoin did not invent bad incentives. those existed, yo.
09:50 < fenn> like every time someone pastes a link in #bitcoin you get spambot telling you how DANGEROUS it is to FOLLOW A LINK!!!
09:51 < maaku> fenn: bitcoin created that problem?
09:51 < fenn> but even this is not what makes my eyes glaze over every time i read about it
09:52 < maaku> bitcoin solves a problem that hitherto had no solution -- global concensus in an adversarial environment
09:53 < fenn> if someone had set up a blockchain software without the money aspect it never would have attracted any attention
09:54 < fenn> "oh look another digital notary"
09:54 < fenn> nobody gave a shit about hashcash
09:54 < fenn> the email spam prevention thing
09:54 < kanzure> hal seemed to care, even did rpow stuff
09:54 < fenn> but now that there's money involved i'm supposed to care?
09:55 < maaku> no, not true. bitcoin is not another digital notary. it's a dynamic, anonymous membership signture, something which never existed before
09:55 < fenn> it's a distributed notary
09:55 < maaku> wihch has never existed before
09:55 < maaku> it's true that without the currency it wouldn't have been hyped as much, but it'd still be revolutionary
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10:01 < fenn> i blame peter thiel for selling out on the idea of cryptocurrency while developing paypal :P
10:02 < maaku> don't we all
10:03 < fenn> i read cryptonomicon many years ago and was like, is this fiction?
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10:08 < fenn> "In March 2010, PayPal froze donations to Cryptome, seizing over $5300 of in-transit donations. ayPal refused to inform Cryptome of the reason for this action, claiming that to disclose why the donations had been confiscated would violate Cryptome's own privacy."
10:08 < fenn> down the rabbit hole
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10:16 < nmz787_i> hasn't it proven to not be anonymous?
10:20 < maaku> nmz787_i: bitcoin is pseudo-anonymous
10:22 < fenn> .title http://www.halplotkin.com/cnbcs029.htm
10:22 < yoleaux> Beam Me up Some Cash
10:22 < fenn> "PDA owners can use their device's infrared port to exchange cash with one another or pay bills at locations equipped with an infrared reader."
10:22 < fenn> uh.. that was their big idea? really?
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10:25 < heath> https://twitter.com/Philae2014/status/532593337585651713
10:25 < heath> image right before comet landing
10:27 < nmz787_i> heath: what's the junk in the top-right cornere?
10:27 < nmz787_i> corner
10:28 < nmz787_i> is that the studio spotlight where they filmed star wars?
10:31 < fenn> it's evidence of an ancient alien civilization
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10:45 < heath> nmz787_i: yeah, i'm pretty sure this was faked as well :P
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10:49 < Qfwfq> "Anonymouth is a Java-based application that aims to give users to tools and knowledge needed to begin anonymizing documents they have written. It does this by firing up JStylo libraries (an author detection application also develped by PSAL) to detect stylometric patterns and determine features (like word length, bigrams, trigrams, etc.) that the user should remove/add to help obsure their style and identity." ...
10:49 < Qfwfq> ... https://github.com/psal/anonymouth
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10:55 < Qfwfq> "We study techniques for identifying an anonymous author via linguistic stylometry, i.e., comparing the writing style against a corpus of texts of known authorship. We exper- imentally demonstrate the effectiveness of our techniques with as many as 100,000 candidate authors. Given the increasing availability of writing samples online, our result has serious implications for anonymity and free speech - anonymous blogger or ...
10:55 < Qfwfq> ... whistleblower may be unmasked unless they take steps to obfuscate their writing style. [..] In over 20% of cases, our classifiers can correctly identify an anonymous author given a corpus of texts from 100,000 authors; in about 35% of cases the correct author is one of the top 20 guesses. If we allow the classifier the option of not making a guess, via confidence estimation we are able to increase the precision of the top guess ...
10:56 < Qfwfq> ... from 20% to over 80% with only a halving of recall." http://www.randomwalker.info/publications/author-identification-draft.pdf
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11:04 < tallakahath> Is Anonymouth any more effective than shuttling the text back and forth in google translate's innards a few times?
11:05 < tallakahath> (though I suppose it should be more readable, at the end)
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11:07 < Qfwfq> I can't find any studies on its efficacy (though the methodology in the Naranyan paper should work fine). Even if you're traffic is obfuscated, though, with your approach Google have the cleartext.
11:09 < Qfwfq> I'm curious about how much this normalisation process can be automated without sacrificing comprehensibility.
11:10 < Qfwfq> I don't think any free machine translation systems are on par with Google's. I mean, their corpus alone..
11:11 < yorick> I don't think any paid ones would be either, they're doing quite a lot of the research. Maybe microsoft could beat them
11:13 < tallakahath> I mean from a standpoint of effectiveness of obfuscation, not a standpoint of 'google can still identify you'
11:13 < kanzure> unfortunately sending text through google translate means that google has your text
11:13 < tallakahath> Tho at least some of google's translation services are offline'able
11:13 < kanzure> game over
11:14 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
11:14 < tallakahath> So use the offline standalone google translate services and ensure that your virtual env never calls home?
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11:28 < kanzure> that would help
11:29 < bbrittain> but does the offline google translate really have the corpus to make a decent translation?
11:29 < Qfwfq> bbrittain: Compare http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bYeYA6ek9J0/UVQM1a8tQ_I/AAAAAAABIsM/G1SLNlaHbgo/s640/offline-google-translate-4.png.
11:29 < maaku> the online translate doesn't make decent translations
11:30 < heath> more trap music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYweg6GbNGs
11:30 < kanzure> obvioulsy the right thing to do is use the satoshi nakamoto text corpus
11:31 < kanzure> .title
11:31 < yoleaux> Oiki - Groove [OFFICIAL 1080 HD] - YouTube
11:31 < Qfwfq> Where's the source code? Where're the language pack dumps? Do I need to borrow an Android and MITM the download, or..? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.translate
11:31 < bbrittain> so weird
11:31 < yorick> heath: why would I want this in 1080p?
11:31 < heath> yorick: no clue
11:32 < yorick> Qfwfq: there are apps where you can paste this link and get the package back, and you can decompile that
11:32 < yorick> mitm'ing an android probably wouldn't work because it should download over https if it's any kind of smart about it
11:32 < kanzure> i have copies of most versions of most free android apps
11:32 < Qfwfq> yorick: I'm more interested in the language packs then the binary.
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11:32 < kanzure> in case anyone would find that useful
11:33 < Qfwfq> yorick: Just modify the root cert store to include one on your laptop.
11:33 < yorick> Qfwfq: http://www.apkmirror.com/ should have the binary, and that should have information on where it gets the language pack... somewhere
11:34 < Qfwfq> Sweet.
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11:39 < fenn> wow that offline translate is pretty good
11:43  * bbrittain sighs
11:43 < bbrittain> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8597061
11:44 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:50 < heath> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2rFrtXxa0o
11:50 < yoleaux> (HQ) Celldweller - Tough Guy - YouTube
11:50 < heath> music
11:50 < heath> crap
11:50 < heath> ignore
11:52 < heath> http://d.mrtzc.ch/d_ueVmeR1.mp3
11:52 < heath> that
11:53 < heath> hm, whever the instrumental is, that's what you want :)
11:53 < heath> wherever*
12:04 < ParahSailin_> turtles can breath through their anus
12:06 < kanzure> huh, my portable keyboard has started to crack in half
12:06 < kanzure> typing so fast that it splits the keyboard
12:07 < fenn> interesting list https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs/
12:08 < kanzure> where were you when those were being discussed in here
12:08 < fenn> those?
12:08 < kanzure> those requests for startups
12:08 < fenn> i have no idea, i don't remember that
12:09 < kanzure> because you weren't here
12:09 < fenn> right...
12:09 < fenn> anyway it looks a lot like the hplusroadmap statement of purpose or whatever we called it
12:09 < fenn> except for all that government jobs stuff
12:10 < kanzure> yes i don't know if it should be surprising that doing useful things would turn out to be profitable
12:10 < heath> visit http://nanotechx.com/music/celldweller__tough-guy__instrumental.mp3 in a few hours when dns changes take effect
12:11 < kanzure> i don't know how ycombinator has been handling its hardware projects so far
12:11 < kanzure> it just don't work the same as software
12:11 < fenn> i have this venn diagram in mind of (things that are (useful/profitable) and stuff)
12:11 < fenn> bad diagram
12:12 < kanzure> many of those things are not profitable- just designed to grow massive, see growth.html etc...
12:12 < kanzure> i mean, not profitable at first
12:12 < kanzure> or for very long strentches of time for that matter
12:12 < fenn> set of things that are useful and set of things that are profitable overlap
12:12 < kanzure> *stretches
12:13 < kanzure> would those portable fission batteries be useful for quadcopters
12:13 < bbrittain> I like the call for startups
12:13 < bbrittain> I naively think that ycombinator might be taking some of it's excessive profit and doing cool things with it
12:14 < bbrittain> I especially like #4 :P
12:14 < fenn> bbrittain: how come your blog only has two entries and one is about the software used to render the blog?
12:14 < bbrittain> fenn: because I'm a lazy person
12:14 < fenn> why even write a blog-renderer if you only have one post?
12:14 < bbrittain> who has written more blog engines than blogposts
12:14 < bbrittain> one of them is a lot more fun
12:15 < bbrittain> plus I always delude myself that I'll write
12:15 < fenn> #4 is biotech?
12:15 < bbrittain> I should really just replace that site with a static page
12:15 < bbrittain> ja
12:15 < fenn> ikiwiki processes markdown and spits out static html
12:16 < fenn> you update pages by pushing to the repository
12:16 < fenn> you probably already know this
12:16 < kanzure> not sure why ginkgo decided to go through ycombinator
12:17 < fenn> i thought they were already hooked into the boston scene
12:17 < bbrittain> we are, and it makes sense
12:17 < bbrittain> sorta
12:17 < kanzure> haha
12:17 < bbrittain> we would have been fine without it, but it gives us a west coast connection
12:17 < bbrittain> and that connection brings in $$$
12:18 < fenn> what does ginkgo do again? consulting?
12:18 < kanzure> fenn: you should go through the list and jot down the obvious ideas. i did this a while ago but i guess that got deleted.
12:18 < bbrittain> no, we make bespoke organisms
12:19 < kanzure> s/obvious/obvious to you or me but not to everyone else
12:19 < kanzure> making organisms can still count as consulting, you know
12:19 < fenn> kanzure: like ideas for startups?
12:19 < kanzure> actually not necessarily
12:19 < fenn> i dont even know what a startup is anyway
12:19 < bbrittain> no, consulting means giving advice. I don't think our organisms are that advanced yet.
12:19 < kanzure> "future technology that will have to happen or that will happen"
12:19 < kanzure> not startup ideas necessarily
12:20 < kanzure> i mean specifically in response to their requests (rather than just aimless ideation)
12:20 < fenn> but the buttered-cat-toast device must have its day in the sun
12:20 < fenn> "will happen" eh
12:20 < kanzure> yeah somehow i don't think that's high on your priority list
12:21 < kanzure> "will happen" yes
12:22 < fenn> i could point out that you committed the armchair transhumanist's worst sin, but i'm not religious
12:23 < kanzure> arguably that's not true here
12:23 < kanzure> like, the reason why everyone hates kurzweil is because the last time he groundtruthed anything was ocr
12:23 < kanzure> well, among other reasons
12:24 < kanzure> i am only half here at the moment.
12:24 < kanzure> maybe 10% here.
12:24 < fenn> you are becoming an ephemeral being of light and energy
12:24 < bbrittain> lucky bastard
12:24 < kanzure> no, i'm just pretending to leave
12:24 < kanzure> but it's not working very well
12:31 < tallakahath> You need to increase your fakeness meter
12:31 < bbrittain> tallakahath: who does?
12:31 < fenn> bbrittain: did you know about the vaccine against tooth cavities?
12:32 < bbrittain> fenn: isn't this where they replace mouth bacteria with ones that can't make lactic acid?
12:32 < fenn> mid-1990s some biologist came up with a strain of ... streptococcus? that out-competed S. mutans, preventing cavities, but they didn't let it loose in the wild because it would spread and they didnt know what the consequences might bee
12:33 < tallakahath> kanzure does. So he'll disappear.
12:33 < bbrittain> cowards
12:34 < tallakahath> Along these lines, is there a reason you can't innoculate someone lactose intolerant with lactose-digesting gut bacteria?
12:34 < fenn> "Another approach is being pursued by BASF, focused on replacing native lactobacillus flora with a variety dubbed L. anti-caries, which prevents S. mutans from binding to enamel.  However, it is not a long-term vaccination in that no attempt is being made to have a self-sustaining population of L. anti-caries. The intent is that the L. anti-caries population would be frequently replenished
12:34 < fenn> through use of a chewing gum containing the organism." and more importantly will provide a recurring revenue stream
12:35 < kanzure> that may not be called inoculation
12:35 < bbrittain> fenn: human level health care actually has little interest to me. Too much regulation, too complex of systems, too much initial capital investment
12:35 < bbrittain> I like prokaryotes.
12:35 < tallakahath> According to google definitions, "introduce (an infective agent) into an organism.
12:35 < tallakahath> "it can be inoculated into laboratory animals""
12:36 < kanzure> infective agent. hrm.
12:37 < fenn> the first vaccine was an infectious disease (sort of)
12:38 < nmz787_i> tallakahath: lactose intolerance is probably something that has problems after the guy... i.e. once the lactose gets into your bloodstream. There are fecal transfer therapies though for various things... drinking raw milk would be much more effective though likely, since it has lactase still intact.
12:38 < nmz787_i> after the gut*
12:38 < fenn> oo i should put this on the wiki
12:39 < tallakahath> I thought lactose intolerance was lactase not getting digested in the right part of the gut, making it to the lower intestine, and then being broken down by a different set of bacteria that have byproducts of gas and water-drawing?
12:39 < tallakahath> Er, lactose not lactase
12:39 < tallakahath> Damn
12:41 < fenn> tallakahath: unfortunately you don't really want a lot of bacteria running around your small intestine, so that scheme won't work
12:41 < fenn> however you could conceivably do gene therapy to re-enable the lactase gene
12:41 < nmz787_i> tallakahath: that could be an issue, but I always heard lactose-intolerance as an issue of self-made-lactase not being upregulated after childhood, and that some folks were significantly lower in their endogenous concentrations than others
12:42 < nmz787_i> fenn: huh? read up on fecal transfer... G.I. be full of bacteria
12:42 < nmz787_i> tallakahath: but yeah just drinking raw milk would clear up a lot of that, since again, it has functional lactase present
12:43 < kanzure> tallakahath: would work okay for gluten
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12:44 < fenn> "Unlike the colon (or large bowel), which is rich with bacteria, the small bowel usually has fewer than 104 organisms per millilitre."
12:44 < fenn> 10^4
12:44 < fenn> i'd consider that a small number
12:45 < nmz787_i> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673665909220
12:46 < fenn> ascorbate deficiency in the human organism, a common occurrence
12:46 < nmz787_i> fenn: FWIW milk is allowed to have 7*10^5 white cow blood cells in the U.S. at max
12:47 < fenn> while you're in there digging around the genome, there are a number of minor repairs that have been bugging me...
12:48 < fenn> milk contains lactase? who knew
12:48 < nmz787_i> only functional in non-pasteurized/non-sterilized
12:49 < nmz787_i> I think there are also implications for K2 levels... but I could be wrong about that, jrayhawk would know
12:49 < nmz787_i> he also has reasons other than cooked-lactase for not liking milk though
12:49 < fenn> i don't think raw milk has any lactase, unless it's been contaminated with bacteria that produce lactase
12:50 < jrayhawk> it has lactase
12:51 < jrayhawk> tallakahath: from what I gather of clinical anecdote, your intuitions on gut flora and lactose are practically correct.
12:52 < tallakahath> Hrm, what if you instead put new bacteria in the large intestine that can break down lactose without all the gas and bloating
12:52 < tallakahath> I wonder if that's a thing that can be done
12:52 < nmz787_i> tallakahath: fecal transfer therapy
12:52 < kanzure> also known as butt stuff
12:52 < jrayhawk> Lactose intolerance symptoms, most notably bloating, are caused by lactose-digesting bacteria, so it's a matter of using strains that don't produce hydrogen.
12:52 < tallakahath> Well, more, engineering the necessary bacteria with a breakdown pathway
12:52 < tallakahath> Yeah
12:53 < nmz787_i> tallakahath: http://humanfoodproject.com/rebecoming-human-happened-day-replaced-99-genes-body-hunter-gatherer/
12:53 < tallakahath> Does this mean kcal yields are different for milk products for folks with and without lactose intolerance?
12:53 < nmz787_i> and the follow-up http://humanfoodproject.com/microbial-diversity-sometimes-sometimes-dont/
12:53 < tallakahath> (People with lactase digest the lactose into sugars used for energy, people without lactase bypass those sugars)
12:53 < jrayhawk> There have/are also a bunch of RCTs going on lately for fecal transplants and IBD/IBS/Crohn's/Colitis.
12:53 < tallakahath> Hrm
12:53 < jrayhawk> The hope is to get it down to a pill people can take.
12:54 < jrayhawk> Fecal transplants have some astonishing efficacy for those
12:54  * nmz787_i gulps coffee loaded with tons of half-n-half
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12:55 < nmz787_i> oh, jrayhawk, cow is at the butcher
12:55 < fenn> noooo bessie
12:56 < jrayhawk> oh, cool
12:56 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk: I'm thinking i'll get 1/3 ground, 1/4 steak-ums-like thin slices, and the rest as steaks and roasts... planning to make a ton of jerky and then have easy steak-ums in the freezer (though these will likely oxidize faster with increased surface area)
12:57 < tallakahath> nmz787_i: Vacuum seal those steak-ums?
12:57 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk: I will let you know when I have the goods back home
12:57 < nmz787_i> tallakahath: yeah I was thinking that, will have to price a machine and compare to the butcher if they have that option
12:57 < fenn> polyethylene is a terrible oxygen barrier
12:58 < nmz787_i> at least they wouldn't freezer burn
12:58 < nmz787_i> (dry out, right)?
12:58 < jrayhawk> The sublimation barrier is more what we'd care about.
12:58 < tallakahath> Vacuum sealers are nice and generally useful tho
12:58 -!- Boscop [~me@unaffiliated/boscop] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
12:58 < tallakahath> Mostly 'cause it turns out a lot of commercial packaging can be put into the device and re-sealed
12:58 < fenn> there's some special plastic that won't let oxygen through, but maybe crimped aluminum foil will even work better than polyethylene as far as oxidation
12:59 < tallakahath> You could just keep your freezer at positive argon or nitrogen pressure :)
12:59 < fenn> just store your meat in a bucket of liquid nitrogen
12:59 < jrayhawk> Beef's mostly SFAs, so it'll stay good for, like, six months, assuming sublimation can be kept at bay.
12:59 < nmz787_i> actually, hmm
12:59 < fenn> DIY cryonics
12:59 < nmz787_i> what about CO2
13:00 < jrayhawk> or a year, even
13:00 < nmz787_i> they sell dry ice at the local store
13:00 < nmz787_i> i could just chuck a chunk in once a month
13:00 < nmz787_i> and then have an asphixiation fun-tank too!
13:00 < nmz787_i> huzzah!
13:00 < jrayhawk> I think you have an AirGas pretty near you in Hillsboro.
13:00 < nmz787_i> yeah but dry ice doesn't require a tank
13:00 < nmz787_i> i suppose they may not be terribly expensive though
13:01 < fenn> either way
13:01 < nmz787_i> I /do/ already have an argon regulator from my MIG welder
13:01 < fenn> CO2 will at least let you know you're suffocating
13:01 < nmz787_i> :D
13:01 < nmz787_i> it can be interesting too
13:01 < fenn> with nitrogen you just pass out and never know
13:01 < nmz787_i> there was that dr who used co2-enriched air
13:02 < tallakahath> If you have CO2 and condensation tho you'll have a mildly acidic environment
13:02 < tallakahath> Which may degrade your plastics in other ways
13:03 < fenn> ok here's an idea: put some fine steel wool in the vacuum sealed bag as an oxygen getter
13:03 < fenn> also it flavors the beef
13:03 < nmz787_i> .wik carbogen
13:03 < yoleaux> "Carbogen, also called Meduna's Mixture after its inventor Ladislas Meduna, is a mixture of carbon dioxide and oxygen gas. Meduna's original formula was 30% CO2 and 70% oxygen, but the term carbogen can refer to any mixture of these two gases, from 1.5% to 50% CO2." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbogen
13:05 < nmz787_i> if i use mustard gas, the beef would also have a nice mustard flavor, right?
13:06 < fenn> no you use blister agent because it's in blister packaging
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13:07 < fenn> what i don't get is that most supermarket beef is "hung" which means they just let it sit around exposed to the air for a while before selling it
13:07 < fenn> gee, thanks guys, it's so much better that way, otherwise i'd have to let it sit around and go bad myself
13:08 < fenn> actually i just eat canned salmon, whatever
13:08 < nmz787_i> they're doing that to this beef too
13:08 < nmz787_i> I don't know what the effect is
13:09 < fenn> to spite you
13:09 < nmz787_i> I assume it's some enzymatic thing
13:09 < fenn> it "improves the flavor" by oxidizing the fats
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13:11 < fenn> "the beef’s natural enzymes break down the connective tissue in the muscle, which leads to more tender beef."
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13:13 < fenn> also something about tyramine
13:20 < fenn> where did the "low hanging fruit" page go?
13:20 < fenn> you kids get off my lawn
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13:30 < kanzure> fenn: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/tree/doc/proposals/trans-tech.yaml
13:30 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=c8ae5fce fenn: added info about dental caries vaccine BCS3-L1 >> 
13:30 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=360305e0 fenn: Merge branch 'master' of /srv/git/diyhpluswiki >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
13:31 < kanzure> moving trans-tech.yaml over would make some amount of sense
13:31 < fenn> ya
13:31 < fenn> should i keep it yaml or try to use markdown
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13:32 < kanzure> i say markdown
13:32 < fenn> the existing wiki is hurting for a decent ontology
13:32 < fenn> it's just a pile of stuff, occasionally in directories
13:32 < kanzure> that sounds like a wiki to me
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13:33 < fenn> a vaccine isn't exactly a genetic modification but i didnt know where else to put it
13:34 < fenn> it's not related to longevity or myostatin (and these are on different levels of abstraction so why are they side by side)
13:34 < fenn> projects presumably means things we are working on, and nobody here is working on dental vaccines
13:35 < jrayhawk> there are some structured data plugins for ikiwiki i can enable if you want
13:35 < fenn> i guess i'm guilty of ontological chauvanism
13:35 < jrayhawk> also i can be convinced to support gitit
13:35 < jrayhawk> though i don't think gitit has strong structured data support
13:35 < fenn> structured data means.. like semantic mediawiki?
13:36 < fenn> RDF triples and verbiage?
13:36 < kanzure> structured data just hasn't worked for this in the past
13:36 < kanzure> and i don't expect it to start working
13:37 < fenn> i definitely don't want to have to use semantic web voodoo
13:37 < kanzure> i still don't understand where maaku is going to get all his engineering knowledge to feed into his software
13:38 < maaku> kanzure: what knowledge?
13:38 < fenn> knowledge like what a bolt does
13:39 -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:39 < maaku> you don't need that. you feed in requirements, in the form of a declarative definition of the goal state
13:39 -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:40 < maaku> what i'm building is something that's able to figure out what nuts and bolts are and why they are required on its own
13:40 < fenn> and what does that look like
13:40 < fenn> the goal state definition
13:41 < maaku> e.g. you want a bridge? that's a flat surface suitable able to sustain loads up to X while remaining stable in an environment that include wind shear Y and earthquakes up to magnitude Z
13:41 < kanzure> how does it know what a load is
13:42 < maaku> it has built-in simulators at the base level. things like forces, euclidean space, etc. are basic ontology
13:42 < fenn> i think we can accept forces as a cognitive primitive
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13:42 < fenn> it's stuff like "why" that is hard, and there's thousands of years of engineering knowledge bouncing around the human memesphere being taken for granted
13:43 < kanzure> many engineering artifacts have to be independently characterized by humans before it can do anything interesting in a simulation. and then a simulation has to be written, even.
13:43 -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:43 < kanzure> ideas for how to bypass that or what to do about it would be very well accepted
13:44 < fenn> yeah just getting the standard sizes and materials input is a huge task
13:44 < fenn> inputted to the correct format
13:44 < maaku> fenn: i don't think 'why' is relevant input in this case
13:44 < maaku> you throw it at progressively harder engineering problems, and it develops its own internal 'why'
13:44 < kanzure> so you have to build its 1 million failures so that it can learn?
13:45 < fenn> i think it is, because otherwise you're asking a single mind to figure out/invent thousands of years of practical knowledge on its own
13:45 < maaku> kanzure: not following
13:45 < maaku> kanzure: i'm talking about ab initio simulation, the stuff that doesn't scale
13:45 < fenn> they always find some trick or bug in the simulation that doesn't correspond to the real world
13:45 < kanzure> i am going to sound rude for a moment,
13:46 < maaku> the other part of the learning process is it developing higher-order models which do scale which it tests against its ab-initio biult-in simulator
13:46 < kanzure> your idea is extremely vague and unimplementable
13:46 < kanzure> fenn and i spent multiple years trying to implement ideas that are exactly similar to this
13:46 < maaku> this is based on, e.g. the Bacon system Pat Langly did his Ph.D. work on
13:46 < kanzure> it's not the vagueness that makes it unimplementable, mind you
13:47 < maaku> http://www.isle.org/~langley/discovery.html
13:47 < kanzure> "followed by gradient descent through the parameter space for each candidate structure"
13:47 < kanzure> okay, well you had to give it parameter space and constraints in the first place....
13:47 < kanzure> that's totally cheating
13:48 < fenn> langley stuff is all just data and model fitting
13:48 < maaku> kanzure: integrative intelligence. you hook it up to systems able to learn the parameter space
13:48 < kanzure> maaku: these are the sorts of things that need to be provided, https://github.com/kanzure/skdb/blob/master/doc/lists/manufacturing_processes.txt
13:48 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/skdb/blob/master/doc/lists/material_properties.txt
13:48 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/skdb/blob/master/doc/lists/technical-devices.yaml
13:49 < maaku> kanzure: no, absolutely not. the entire point is to write a system that can learn those things on its own
13:49 < kanzure> learn from what!
13:49 < maaku> e.g. give it a sandbox to play in and it learns a method we would call "sand casting" to create iron structures
13:50 < kanzure> so the sandbox has to have the engineering knowledge in it?
13:50 < fenn> do you mean a literal box of sand?
13:50 < maaku> kanzure: from the base level, absurdly slow simulator coupled with a hierarchical modeller that can abstract away or test portions of a higher level model as needed
13:50 < fenn> or some AI fantasy box simulator?
13:51 < fenn> digital natives are better than you at finding bugs in your simulator
13:51 < maaku> "digital natives"?
13:52 < kanzure> ai
13:52 < kanzure> curve fit. ask a question and get an answer, just not what you wanted.
13:52 < maaku> fenn: ok what's your point there?
13:53 < maaku> kanzure: links to what you and fenn have worked on?
13:53 < kanzure> you are handwaving away the absolute most important parts
13:53 < kanzure> maaku: http://gnusha.org/skdb
13:53 < fenn> well you probably aren't actually interested in finding the ways in which your simulator doesn't accurately model reality
13:53 < kanzure> maaku: https://github.com/kanzure/skdb
13:53 < maaku> fenn: zero approximations in the simulator
13:53 < maaku> other than the bare minimum numerical
13:54 < fenn> zero approximations means you're literally playing God
13:54 < fenn> or you have a robot digging around with a metal shovel in an actual sand box
13:55 < maaku> fenn: i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so i'm going to get back to work
13:55 < maaku> kanzure: that seems 100% unrelated to anything I am working on
13:55 < kanzure> maaku: automatic engineering of target artifacts...?
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13:56 < maaku> kanzure: "SKDB simplifies the process of searching for free designs, comparing part compatibility, and building lists of materials and components and where to get them" <--- doesn't relate to what I am doing
13:56 < kanzure> well excuse me for writing marketing copy
13:57 < kanzure> we were using hardware packages that can be automatically reasoned with to build other packages and dependencies
13:57 < kanzure> for example, industrial bootstrapping of complex machinery from simpler tools
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13:57 < kanzure> based on things in an inventory
13:57 < fenn> maaku: you have to have some starting point, whether it's sand or lumber or products from amazon
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13:58 < fenn> in reality you can't just say "ok now make some stuff appear"
13:58 < fenn> you can, but nothing will happen
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13:59 < fenn> so we have all these nanotech gearboxes, but nobody's actually built one because they don't know how
13:59 < fenn> designs*
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14:01 < fenn> why is it the phrase "symbol grounding problem" always throws pure AI people into a hissy fit
14:01 < fenn> engineers have no probem grounding symbols
14:03 < fenn> a CNC controller's position readout corresponds to the position of some block of metal, plus or minus epsilon
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14:04 < kanzure> maaku: http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-11-12.log
14:04 < maaku__> f'ing bouncer
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14:04 < fenn> oh i thought he stormed off
14:04 < delinquentme> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/dna-assembly/Microfluidic%20systhesis.pdf
14:04 < delinquentme> what was this submitted to the school of architecture?
14:05 < delinquentme> + media arts + sciences ?
14:05 < maaku__> fenn: the disconnect is that I'm getting questions along the lines of "how do you intend to input all this engineering ontology?" when what I'm trying to do is build an automated system for discovering the ontology
14:05 < maaku__> which it will internally represent as probabalistic causal graphs
14:06 < kanzure> the same question applies directly to a simulator
14:07 < maaku__> e.g. take an engineer, strip him of all his knowledge (fictional amnesia), but not the desire to create. how would he discover e.g., what a lever is, or why you need extra redundancy?
14:07 < delinquentme> novelty: http://vimeo.com/101675469
14:07 < fenn> .title
14:07 < yoleaux> Satoshi Kon - Editing Space & Time on Vimeo
14:07 < delinquentme> maaku__, I cant help but think this has been done before
14:07 < kanzure> probably by talking with other people
14:07 < kanzure> delinquentme: shoo
14:08 < delinquentme> isnt there a codebase for something like this already existing?
14:08 < kanzure> maaku__: so his simulation box would need to have a lever already in it for him to encounter a lever?
14:08 < maaku__> delinquentme: this is pretty much the AGI problem
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14:08 < delinquentme> ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
14:08 < delinquentme> that sounds like a bit of an extrapolation
14:08 < kanzure> why does nobody respect my shoos.
14:08 < fenn> do you give it a lever? or do you just drop random shaped pieces of simulated matter in?
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14:09 < delinquentme> kanzure, im trying to sort out what the interesting problem is?
14:09 < maaku__> no it's simpler. it just looks for 'interesting' categorical arrangements of matter
14:09 < delinquentme> I mean from a basic standpoint you could simply measure co-occurrence
14:10 < maaku__> at some point it figures out that a long, sturdy object is able to achieve large force over a small distance by applying a small force over a long distance
14:11 < kanzure> so far all those engineers did have amnesia (they were born knowing nothing). and then they learn about stuff by talking with wizards, reading books, and interacting with the world.
14:11 < fenn> so i can imagine how a physics simulator works, but how does it "look for interesting arrangements" and how does it even know what is interesting?
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14:11 < kanzure> fenn: not a good question
14:11 < maaku__> that's very unlike most other random arrangements of matter, so it gets filed away as interesting
14:11 < kanzure> if you assume a working physics simulator that accurately models reality, you can do all sorts of other stuff
14:11 < maaku__> interesting as a technical sense here, meaning basically uncommon
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14:12 < fenn> i'm not assuming that it accurately models all aspects of reality, but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt that a physics simulator can simulate a lever :)
14:12 < maaku__> layer other aspects of AGI on top of this, e.g. creative recombination of ideas, and it start to less resemble a brute force iteration though possible arrangements of matter
14:13 < delinquentme> fenn, what is the size of the lever XD
14:13 < kanzure> well the naive implementation is just generate all possible shapes, test each one, see what works best, genetic algorithms, blah blah lbah, totally boring and obvious stuff
14:13 < kanzure> (and then you make it more efficient from there)
14:13 < delinquentme> I mean if kanzure can suggest it ... clearly
14:13 < kanzure> (also you run simulations at fast-time)
14:13 < delinquentme> we're even for your regex comment from yesterday now
14:14 < delinquentme> it pissed me off that I spent 2 hours sorting out a regex which basically relayed " you're only allowed to name your system X ... this regex is X "
14:15 < fenn> maaku__: but all solids are levers, and all unique arrangements are unique
14:16 < kanzure> that's also a bad point
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14:17 < maaku__> fenn: suffice to say that is a basic machine learning problem, cluster identification
14:17 < fenn> i'm trying to explain why "just do AGI on it" is not an explanation of how it works
14:17 < tallakahath> OK time to get off this couch
14:17 < kanzure> ignore the agi part
14:17 < maaku__> ok then i suppose I'm not getting what you are trying to say
14:17 < kanzure> just assume it's random results and it eventually gets a result that is okay
14:18 < kanzure> and then agi is just "more efficient" whipped cream or whatever
14:19 < fenn> even with genetic algorithms you have a genotype and a phenotype, and this means some level of structure is hard coded into the way the algorithm does things
14:19 < maaku__> right this works with AIXI, in the theoretical sense
14:19 < kanzure> yes i assume the structure is something like generic fermi estimation of engineering requirements or something
14:19 < fenn> like a 0 here means a voxel is empty there
14:20 < maaku__> fenn, hence the AGI cop-out. an AGI would be able to introspect and say, try different genotype and phenotypes. or maybe try something entirely different from a genetic search
14:20 < fenn> why is an AGI necessary just to learn how to play with piles of rubble
14:21 < kanzure> it's not necessary
14:21 < maaku__> it's not necessary
14:21 < fenn> ok at least we agree on that
14:21 < kanzure> it's just well known that something better than random can already be achieved
14:21 < kanzure> but look, nobody was arguing against the existence of optimization algorithms or whatever
14:22 < kanzure> or, i guess fenn was, but i don't know why (he knows better)
14:22 < kanzure> s/optimization/search
14:22 < fenn> so a tall pile of rocks is more unusual than a flat pile of rocks because rocks tend to fall down..
14:22 < kanzure> i assume you would give some requirements to the simulator, just like in genetic algorithms or any other search problem
14:23 < kanzure> and solutions that are closer to the goals would be indicated somehow
14:23 < maaku__> fenn: the dream is a mechanical engineer, and moore's law means you can throw more computing power at such a thing faster and cheaper than you could throw more human engineers at the problem
14:23 < fenn> if you simulate 99 million random arrangements of rocks you might find a few that are taller and thus come up with rules that would select for things that are like that
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14:23 < kanzure> you would just throw in various constraint problems, like the gear train synthesis software ("give me 500 newtons of force at these coordinates")
14:23 < maaku__> some 5-ish years ago I looked at what it would take to do a full on molecular nanotechnology initiative, culminating in a working nanofactory. it looked expensive. i also have a longstanding interest in AGI and did my own assessment of how much work it would take to finish a human-level engineering AGI. that looked cheaper
14:25 < maaku__> although i've only been working/researching about it recently, off and on for the last two years or so
14:25 < kanzure> so the design question seems a little less interesting to me than the build steps problem
14:25 < maaku__> build steps meaning instructions for building the thing?
14:25 < kanzure> anyone can propose a dyson sphere design, but some good that does us....
14:26 < maaku__> right i'm in absolute agreement with you there
14:26 < kanzure> instructions, steps, whatever... botstrapping. whatever you call it.
14:26 < kanzure> *bootstrapping
14:26 < maaku__> without the bootstrapping it is very uninteresting
14:27 < maaku__> but the design comes first, then you build a planner on top
14:27 < delinquentme> " the dream is a mechanical engineer, and moore's law means you can throw more computing power at such a thing faster and cheaper than you could throw more human engineers at the problem"
14:27 < delinquentme> +1
14:27 < kanzure> shoo
14:27  * delinquentme hate +1
14:27 < kanzure> maaku__: why would a planner do bootstrapping?
14:27 < kanzure> i don't understand.
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14:28 < maaku__> it's a planning problem -- how do you get from <current state> to <desired future state>
14:28 < kanzure> so you have to describe current state somehow.
14:28 < kanzure> it cannot be assumed
14:29 < maaku__> but it doesn't have to be very complex
14:29 < kanzure> go on
14:29 < ParahSailin_> kanzure: stop whatever you are doing, delinquentme is spamming me in pm
14:29 < fenn> (with embodied agents you can assume current state and let the agent inspect it)
14:30 < maaku__> e.g. in the nanofactory case it could be a set of available vapor deposition actions on a carbon or silicon substrate, and a handful of stochastic (unreliable) AFM tooltip operations
14:31 < kanzure> oh i meant go on about your non-complex way of describing current state
14:31 < delinquentme> ParahSailin_,
14:31 < maaku__> the output is like a generalized solution of the rubix cube -- take actions, A, B, C, D, .... and the result will be components X, Y, Z. integrate them into a MEMS system in this way, and then perform actions ... etc.
14:32 < kanzure> yes i know what the outputs should be. it's the inputs i'm most worried about.
14:34 < maaku__> maybe i'm missing something but in this case the inputs don't seem that complex.
14:36 < maaku__> you could express them as rules -- 'after bathing the surface, any exposed dehydrogenated atoms will have bonded with a hydrogenated carbon with probability 0.9978'
14:36 < kanzure> someone has to write software for the simulation to explain what vapor deposition is, right?
14:36 < kanzure> and someone has to collect and write those rules, right?
14:37 < fenn> this is just engineering knowledge like bolts and levers, that you think are too banal to input in principle
14:37 < maaku__> yes, but in this special case that doesn't look like a challenging problem
14:37 < maaku__> you're talking about a handful of rules
14:37 < kanzure> i would be interested in hearing your ideas for implementations to make it not challenging
14:37 < maaku__> what was challenging about the rule I just gave?
14:38 < nmz787_i> maaku_ you'd need to determine all the operational parameters of the equipment to achieve that goal
14:39 < nmz787_i> either by trial and error, or by some physics/chem-based ruleset...
14:39 < kanzure> and hook up the semantic knowledge about "bathing the surface" to inside the simulation.. or agent.. or something.
14:40 < kanzure> what happens when 100,000 of these rules are required? a million?
14:40 < maaku_> i would find it too tedius to encode every aspect of engineering knowledge that might be required to design a nanofactory from first principles.
14:40 < kanzure> s/design/build
14:40 < kanzure> iirc design is not that difficult
14:40 < maaku_> but it doesn't seem too difficult to describe the probabalistic behavior of the handful of things you can do with an AFM in a vacuum chamber
14:40 < fenn> "sudo make me a nanofactory" <- there, i designed it
14:41  * kanzure scribbles a picture of a nanofactory
14:41 < maaku_> yes, build
14:41 < fenn> it feels like we're going around in circles
14:41 < maaku_> *bootstrap
14:42 < fenn> now i want to ask 'how do you describe what you can do with an AFM'
14:42 < kanzure> yes, we went from "no engineering knowledge, fuck you kanzure" to "yeah there's engineering knowledge"
14:42 < kanzure> also, there are many possible things you can do with an afm that you can't derive from first principles about the atomic structure of an afm tip
14:42 < maaku_> maybe you have a definition of engineering knowledge different from me
14:42 < maaku_> and I don't think that I was ever that hostile
14:42 < delinquentme> ParahSailin_,
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14:43 < kanzure> oh i'm not claiming hostility
14:43 < kanzure> or i do not intend to be claiming hostility
14:43 < maaku_> ok
14:44  * nmz787_i pokes myself in the eye with an AFM tip
14:45 < maaku_> kanzure: so the bootstrapping design program needs to have some sort of basic ontology rooted in the physical simulator, and the first layer of derived ontology will likely be things like atomic structure
14:45 < maaku_> some manual introspection of the program's ontology reveals what these symbols are
14:46 < maaku_> you then specify some very coarse, high variance rules for what happens when you perform available actions A1 through A15 on world state, based on this ontology
14:46 < kanzure> you could probably convince me about some methodology involving replacing unknowns and unknown-unknowns with fermi estimation, and then filling in blanks through empirical testing with physical reality
14:46 < maaku_> right these rules could even be learnt through physical testing
14:47 < maaku_> but to appease the MIRI folks, let's say we don't hook up the AI to an AFM
14:47 < maaku_> it could still be done by a handful of engineers in the lab doing prep work
14:47 < fenn> did it create this ontology about atomic structure through trial and error with the simulator, or was it programmmed in at the start?
14:47 < kanzure> programmed, although not from the start- at some mid-point apparently
14:47 < maaku_> fenn: trial and error with the simulator
14:48 < kanzure> what?
14:48 < kanzure> no now we're backtracking
14:48 < fenn> sorry
14:48 < maaku_> then you present it with, say, a construct consisting of six protons, six neutrons, and six electrons, and see what it identifies it as. now you know that learned symbol is carbon-12
14:48 < kanzure> "available actions A1 through A15 on world state,"
14:49 < fenn> symbol
14:49 < fenn> i thought it was interacting with a simulation
14:49 < maaku_> kanzure: present capability with the AFM -- e.g. apply pressure at position X,Y; bath sample in gas Z
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14:49 < kanzure> i know what you mean, i just don't know how you plan to do it
14:50 < fenn> if it's just driving an afm around how can it know how many neutrons it has? (i'd think it can't)
14:50 < kanzure> and how do you know that the set of actions you program into the system are the set that would allow it to do anything useful
14:51 < maaku_> kanzure: you don't until you try
14:51 < kanzure> no wait, if you assume that the action programming works, then you can skip that question of mine
14:51 < kanzure> however, i'm not willing to make that assumption yet....
14:51 < maaku_> "assume that the action programming works" <--- not parsing this
14:51 < maaku_> assume that the action rules are valid?
14:52 < kanzure> the thing where you map "available actions A1 through A15 on world state" to the internal symbols of the agent thingy.
14:52 < fenn> the actions do things like move the afm +1 on the X axis, or wait for 1 millisecond
14:52 < fenn> that would be hard-coded into the simulator
14:53 < maaku_> fenn: it is interacting with a simulation, with the purpose of learning how that simulation works, with the assumption that the simulation matches reality (ab initio), and using that to design a sequence of actions which if carried out in the real world result in desired goal state (nanofactory)
14:53 < kanzure> right.. by people typing up engineering theory/knowledge/information/data...
14:53 < fenn> no it's not theory, it's AI to simulator interface code
14:54 < fenn> glue code
14:54 < maaku_> kanzure: that step is done by identifying the lowest layers of ontology in the bridge between the program's symbolic and subsymbolic (simulator) understanding
14:54 < maaku_> that step is a manual process
14:54 < kanzure> hmmm
14:54 < kanzure> that's the thing that i would most need to see a vague outline of a proof of concept of
14:54 < maaku_> same as when you throw a ton of pictures from youtube at an image recognizer to learn patterns, then show it pictures of cats to figure which pattern corresponded to a cat
14:55 < kanzure> so let's imagine a world much like our own world, except where we have oracle knowledge doing this thought experiment i'm proposing
14:56 < maaku_> in principle you do this introspection to identify what every symbol in the machine corresponds to, including stuff we might not even have words for. but really you only need it for enough vocabulary to describe the current state (of the AFM box)
14:56 < kanzure> and we know that in this world that, by definition, that an afm tip is not enough to build a nanofactory. what now? does that mean that you just keep hiring engineers to type in more data until enough actions are programmed in and avaiable?
14:56 < kanzure> *available
14:56 < maaku_> or build better tools to work with as a base
14:57 < fenn> vague outline for AFM interface: command afm movement, sense afm movement, sense time passed
14:57 < maaku_> it does help in the sense that you can build a bootstrapping process that say, would work if you had the freitas tooltips available and 15 angstrom resolution on AFM positioning
14:58 < maaku_> then you'd know with some certainty that the scale of the problem was drastically reduced, and maybe you just need to hire a bunch of chemists
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15:01 < fenn> i'd just like to see it randomly drive an AFM around and somehow build up a model of how atoms work based on unexpected differences between commanded and sensed positions alone
15:01 < fenn> by randomly i mean super magical AI powers tell it what to do to learn fastest
15:02 < maaku_> well that may end up being necessary
15:02 < kanzure> it was a mistake to introduce this idea as agi
15:02 < kanzure> because fenn is stuck now
15:02 < maaku_> probably
15:02 < fenn> this way we only give the AI box part of the code an interface that corresponds to what an actual physical interface would look like
15:03 < maaku_> the bootstrapping design issue is more presing in my view, because if I had a working design that could be built if we just had capabilities X, Y, and Z, money would materialize to solve that problem
15:03 < fenn> any other way necessarily involves giving it "symbolic data" that has no connection to reality
15:03 < maaku_> yeah I spend too much time in AI circles, sorry
15:03 < fenn> who here has seen an atom?
15:03 < fenn> rhetorical question, don't answer
15:03 < maaku_> "AI" in this case is merely "It's cheaper for me to write a program that does this than hire literally 1 million engineers"
15:04 < maaku_> fenn: i see them everyday
15:04 < maaku_> don't you?
15:04 < fenn> so i'm told
15:05 < maaku_> touche
15:05 < fenn> i'm fine with the AFM task as a starting point because it's basically the same as driving a toy robot around in a box of rocks
15:05 < fenn> except we can't actually see the rocks, we can only drive the robot
15:06 < fenn> so that simplifies things because nobody wants to write vision processing code or whatever
15:06 < fenn> but it puts a lot more work on the AI driving the robot to figure out what's going on
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15:10 < fenn> i'm afraid an ab initio molecular dynamics simulation will be just as bad as a box of rocks simulation though
15:10 < heath> i refuse to read the backlog
15:10 < fenn> it can be pretty terrible, rocks exploding and vibrating for no reason
15:10 < heath> fenn: sum it up
15:10 < heath> you've got this
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15:10 < fenn> heath: magical AI robots playing in sandboxes to take over the world
15:11 < fenn> uh, and looking for interesting things
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15:11 < fenn> i'm terrible at this
15:11  * heath nods and thanks fenn
15:11 < heath> good enough
15:11 < fenn> maaku is trying to explain how to say "sudo make me a nanofactory"
15:11 < delinquentme> "Finally, teams will upload any new digital designs for devices and/or hardware along with any new controller code to “Metafluidics,” a new open repository of device and hardware designs for microfluidics, to share with a larger miniaturization community."
15:11 < delinquentme> http://2014.igem.org/Tracks/Microfluidics
15:13 < kanzure> fenn: "we'll just use ai to solve the grounding problem, it's simple"
15:14 < kanzure> maybe i'm being unfair
15:14 < fenn> so this bathing thing, there's like a valve that opens and lets hydrogen in?
15:16 < fenn> and then you simulate pumping down the vacuum for billions of cycles?
15:17 < maaku_> kanzure: it's called "bridging the symbolic/subsymbolic gap"
15:18 < kanzure> has anyone ever done that
15:18 < maaku_> no, it's new
15:18 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure people have been aware of this problem though
15:18 < kanzure> (of this particular gap/bridging problem)
15:18 < maaku_> there's been some work on it by the opencog people thoug
15:18 < maaku_> i'm reusing a variant of their design
15:18 < kanzure> ben goertzel threatened to sue me. so funny.
15:19 < kanzure> right. hm...
15:19 < maaku_> http://goertzel.org/DeSTIN_OpenCog_paper.pdf
15:19 < maaku_> kanzure: really?
15:19 < kanzure> have you read wargasm
15:19 < maaku_> no
15:19 < kanzure> http://www.goertzel.org/fiction/wargazm/WARCON.html
15:20 < kanzure> okay joking aside, /me looks
15:21 < maaku_> wow how did I not know about this juicy bit :)
15:23 < maaku_> well opencog's atomspace is garbage, but the basic idea of the paper of mining corrolations between learned features and symbolic nodes could work in any context
15:23 < maaku_> requires a jeff hawkins like hierarchical construct on the subsymbollic side though
15:24 < fenn> i'd like to point out that literally every robot controller and industrial interface in the world bridges the symbolic/subsymbolic gap just fine
15:24 < maaku_> fenn: automated bridging
15:25 < maaku_> as in recognize new patterns perceptually, and link those patterns to things being reasoned about, even in novel environments
15:25 < kanzure> hashimoto is a good name
15:26 < fenn> may your thyroid ring true
15:26 < maaku_> nonsequitor, but true
15:26  * maaku_ wishes he'd thought of 'hashimoto' as an irc handle back in the day
15:27 < fenn> are you the demon wizard in samurai jack?
15:27 < fenn> http://samuraijack.wikia.com/wiki/Aku
15:30 < kanzure> ha
15:31 < kanzure> maaku_: btw i am only harsh on you because these things are important... and stuff..
15:31 < kanzure> broadly speaking what we want is basically the same
15:32 < maaku_> kanzure: if i thought you were being a jerk I would have /part'd a while ago :)
15:33 < kanzure> i wonder if there's an analytical method to build step generation
15:33 < kanzure> where you can correctly derive a suitable answer by just crunching numbers instead of massive graph search problems
15:34 < kanzure> (i don't mean simulations of designs to see if they meet requirements/goals)
15:34 < maaku_> sortof. i mean that's the goal of reasoning engines
15:34 < fenn> there are vastly more equations without analytical solutions, but mathematicians dont particularly like them and try to ignore the fact that they exist
15:34 < maaku_> there just hasn't been a generalized algorithm for that
15:35 < maaku_> works in some problems, not in others. inference itself is sortof a graph search :\
15:35 < maaku_> one aspect of what I want to focus on is learning problem solving techniques
15:35 < maaku_> i think this is closest to what you mean
15:36 < kanzure> it is not. i ignore absoutely everything on the machine learning side because i consider it either trivial or already solved by many other people.
15:36 < maaku_> well.. i don't know how to respond to that
15:36 < kanzure> it's probably just us using different words
15:36 < kanzure> or meanings
15:37 < maaku_> probably. i wasn't talking about machine learning a la feature identification, although i think that is useful
15:37 < kanzure> "bridging" just seems like the most critical piece. once you have that, the other parts fall into place.
15:37 < maaku_> i meant more along the lines of MOSES in opencog
15:37 < fenn> am pretty sure "machine learning" is important in what you call bridging
15:37 < maaku_> which 'learns' programs by hybrid genetic+beam search
15:38 < maaku_> fenn: it's basically the core
15:38 < kanzure> no amount of learning can predict reality
15:38 < kanzure> i mean,
15:38 < kanzure> no amount of learning can create a bridge
15:38 < fenn> it's not learning really so much as glorping things into bins
15:38 < kanzure> *no amount of machine learning can create a bridge
15:38 < maaku_> bridging is higher level machine learning -- learn corrolations between already learned patterns and predicted (reasoned) concepts
15:38 < fenn> "this looks like a cat!"
15:39 < kanzure> bridges can only grow from existing bridges
15:39 < kanzure> (probably)
15:39 < maaku_> kanzure: i don't buy that as a philosophical basis
15:39 < fenn> this is why i dont like simulated sandboxes for AI to play in
15:39 < kanzure> maaku_: go on
15:39 < kanzure> i'm reasonable. sometimes. :)
15:39 < fenn> there's no sensory input being simulated in any way like how real sensors work
15:40 < maaku_> kanzure: are you saying that it is *impossible* to think up something for which an example doesn't already exist?
15:41 < maaku_> a bridge is a bad example because there were probably bridges long before humans -- trees that fell over small creeks, for example, or beaver dams
15:41 < maaku_> but assuming those didn't exist -- tha tthere was never a body of water or river that had something stretching over it
15:41 < fenn> i thought "bridging" was just a metaphor
15:42 < maaku_> i would still argue that a human engineer at some point would have thought "hey, maybe there's something I can build to make it possible to walk across instead of using a boat"
15:42 < kanzure> yeah i thought it was a concept in the field of ai, not related to actual physical bridges
15:42 < kanzure> i am talking about symbolic grounding bridges
15:43 < maaku_> it is, sorry i just decided to take it literally as an example.
15:43 < maaku_> probably a bad one.
15:43 < maaku_> ok idk. imagine you have a world consisting of blocks and spheres
15:44 < kanzure> i am suggesting the possibility that in the absence of a working "symbolic grounding" that maybe there is no symbolic grounding that is possible.
15:44 < maaku_> separately you have one of these AI-boxes that has been simulating boxes and spheres and their interactions and machine-learned everything there is to know about them
15:44 < fenn> if you have an image sensor made of square chunks of silicon, the voltages on them get digitized into streams of bits representing an array of pixels. there's your first bridge. then you take the array of pixels and do edge detection and feature extraction, there's your second bridge
15:44 < maaku_> one thing it would learn is that "boxes tend to stay still unless inclined at a large angle, whereas spheres roll around with the slightest bump"
15:45 < fenn> eventually you get to "there's a cat!" which is where all the symbolic ai stuff starts
15:45 < kanzure> maaku_: sure..
15:46 < fenn> blocks and spheres dont exist
15:46 < kanzure> fenn: sounds like "is my red the same as your red? is my cat the same as your cat?" which is boring
15:46 < maaku_> so starting with nothing more than the hypothosis that these mental simulations correspond to physical items, there's only one mapping of Box and Sphere to the observed items, which themselves seem to fit in two categories: static vs rolls-around
15:46 < fenn> i just hate "start with a world of <easily computed mathematical things>" and assuming it represents reality in any meaningful way
15:47 < kanzure> hm.
15:47 < kanzure> maaku_: when you did your cost estimates, did you write things down?
15:48 < fenn> there are actually huge layers of processing going on before you can even get to the most basic levels of human awareness
15:48 < kanzure> maaku_: also did you play with the java applet here? http://theuncertainfuture.com/
15:48 < maaku_> that was two computers ago... i might be able to find it
15:48 < kanzure> well it's important
15:48 < maaku_> it would be good i think to redo the analysis with what I know now
15:49 < maaku_> certainly
15:49 < kanzure> theuncertainfuture is highly relevant to these sorts of analyses, although it's not a generic tool for constructing them (although it should be)
15:50 < kanzure> oh hey it works on one of my desktops. that is cool and unexpected.
15:50 < kanzure> why do i have java installed there?
15:50 < maaku_> need to install java :\
15:51 < maaku_> kanzure: what are you interested in having the AGI path compared against?
15:51 < kanzure> whole brain emulation, but also other things
15:51 < kanzure> other things like "apt-get for hardware and engineers manually maintaining packages of software for hardware stuff"
15:52 < kanzure> whole brain emulation itself is a broad category though
15:52 < fenn> yoleaux doesnt like funny european letters
15:52 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_physics
15:52 < kanzure> there are things everywhere from destructive brain scanning to non-destructive type
15:52 < kanzure> and things like partial brain emulation, which might be enough
15:52 < maaku_> ok WBE I know less about. at the time I took numbers about what it would take to do full brain simulation, and did kurzweilian curve fitting
15:53 < maaku_> kurzweil himself is probably a fine source for that. crude, i know
15:53 < kanzure> theuncertainfuture presents you with a series of questions about your probability distributions and priors for different costs of certain things
15:53 < kanzure> like transistor costs, moore's law continuing or not and how much runway left, etc.
15:53 < kanzure> but also things like your expectations of science funding, science funding effectiveness
15:54 < fenn> WBE by 2040 or bust
15:54 < kanzure> "general likelihood of whole brain emulation to even work at all even with maximum possible funding and best case scenario"
15:54 < fenn> .g whole brain emulation roadmap
15:54 < kanzure> "non-neuromorphic ai likeliness" (and then you drag probability densities around on a graph to show when you think it is most likely)
15:54 < yoleaux> http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf
15:55 < fenn> kanzure: has anyone plugged the assumptions from this roadmap into the uncertain future slide rule?
15:55 < kanzure> no
15:55 < kanzure> theuncertainfuture is not quite a generic library or framework, even though it should be
15:56 < fenn> but they ask the same sort of questions right?
15:56 < kanzure> kinda
15:56 < kanzure> i can do a run-through over irc if you guys want
15:56 < fenn> how many questions are there approximately
15:56 < kanzure> i forget
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15:58 < fenn> i love the entry on the naive physics list, "Two events are either simultaneous or they are not"
15:58 < maaku_> see i don't trust myself to make such judgements. will WBE work? heck if I know.
15:58 < maaku_> i can just go by what the experts estimate as far as timelines, which seems to be 2030's at the earliest if you have a supercomputer and are not insanly optimistic
15:58 < kanzure> "Is artificial intelligence possible in principle?"
15:58 < kanzure> then it gives you a probability box
15:58 < kanzure> oh there's actually lots of citations for what experts think, with their numbers/claims
15:58 < kanzure> hrm this is hard to communicate
15:59 < maaku_> right i mean table 9 from the WBE roadmap
15:59 < kanzure> jrayhawk: might as well talk about that javathing in here
15:59 < jrayhawk> i doubt i will get around to it quickly
15:59 < kanzure> anyway, it wants a probability for what hplusroadmap thinks for whether or not "Is artificial intelligence possible in principle?"
16:00 < kanzure> in the form of a percentage
16:00 < maaku_> uh, 100%? i assuming we're not dualists here
16:00 < fenn> error: undefined term
16:00 < jrayhawk> i dunno, we got some wackos
16:00 < kanzure> to be fair, i don't really believe in intelligence
16:00 < maaku_> haha ok
16:00 < maaku_> artificial stupidity?
16:00 < kanzure> why not normal stupidity?
16:01 < kanzure> alright let's go with the default, 99%
16:01 < kanzure> "When will computing power stop improving exponentially?"
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16:02 < kanzure> astonishingly early stop: 10 to the $user_input (log) FLOPS/$
16:02 < kanzure> median stop: 10 to the $user_other_input (log) FLOPS/$
16:02 < kanzure> astonishingly late stop: $user_third_input (log) FLOPS/$
16:02 < fenn> three years ago
16:02 < kanzure> defaults are: 10, 11, 12
16:02 < kanzure> these are not years
16:02 < fenn> lets go with astonishingly early then
16:03 < kanzure> all three must be given values
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16:03 < kanzure> 10 ,11 and 12 are editable
16:03 < jrayhawk> we're already hitting some physical limits in fabrication processes, but there's basically infinite room to grow in terms of pipelining and parallelization
16:03 < jrayhawk> obviously we'll have to ditch x86 at some point, though
16:03 < jrayhawk> there'll be a dip due to x86 inertia
16:05 < fenn> nvidia tesla is 10TFLOP and costs about $1k
16:06 < kanzure> so that's 10^9 per dollar?
16:06 < fenn> so i'm going to say 11 log FLOPS/$
16:06 < kanzure> oh 10 though
16:06 < kanzure> 11 as the astonishingly early stop?
16:07 < jrayhawk> we aren't anywhere near theoretical heatpiping limits, which would probably involve diamond fabrication, and there are probably also advancements in superconductivity to be expected
16:07 < fenn> moores law as we know it grinds to a sickening halt
16:07 < kanzure> and astonishingly late stop?
16:07 < kanzure> i don't know why a median is required, now that i think about it
16:07 < fenn> i'm kinda confused about the format of the answers
16:07 < kanzure> they change.
16:08 < jrayhawk> i guess we already vapor deposition of diamond, so it's just a matter of integrating such a substrate into fabrication processes
16:09 < kanzure> i am going to set astonishingly late stop to 10^15 FLOPS/$
16:10 < kanzure> "How much computing power for neuromorphic (brain-like) AI?"
16:10 < fenn> what is "astonishingly late stop" supposed to mean?
16:10 < jrayhawk> also once we reach the end of 2D density gains, we'll have more incentive to work on 3D density gains.
16:10 < kanzure> "The median value is 10 to the ___ flops, std dev is 10 to the ___ flops."
16:10 < kanzure> fenn: astonishingly late stop to "When will computing power stop improving exponentially?"
16:10 < fenn> never?
16:11 < kanzure> er, has to be less than the theoretical maximum supportable of the universe
16:11 < kanzure> right?
16:11 < fenn> like, what? quantum nucleonics could do stupidly huge amounts of processing
16:11 < fenn> and what is a dollar in that context?
16:11 < jrayhawk> i think after 10^17 it stops mattering for our purposes since we can just emulate a brain at that point
16:12 < jrayhawk> real cheap
16:12 < kanzure> fenn how is it that you don't have a sense for logs
16:12 < kanzure> are you feeling okay
16:12 < fenn> i know what a log is
16:12 < fenn> i don't know what a dollar a million years in the future is supposed to mean
16:13 < kanzure> oh the end of the chart was 2050 ish
16:13 < fenn> i dont know enough about degenerate matter physics to calculate theoretical computers made from them
16:13 < kanzure> hmm this is hard to explain without video
16:13 < kanzure> http://theuncertainfuture.com/ufHelp/GoryMath.html
16:14 < kanzure> alright, i'll just do screenshots.
16:15 < fenn> so we are guessing the maximum expected computing power in 2050
16:16 < fenn> this is like "in 1985 colonists on pluto rebelled and send torrents of holo-petitions to colonial headquarters on earth"
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16:16 < fenn> seriously 2050 is the maximum?
16:18 < fenn> given how many people (including ai researchers) think we won't have "ai" until "a hundred years after i'm dead" you'd think they would at least humor the audience
16:20 < jrayhawk> the fermi estimation procedure in uncertainfuture requires implausible pessimism to get there
16:21 < jrayhawk> well, for certain definitions of pessimism
16:21 < jrayhawk> i suppose it's probably optimistic from a humanist perspective
16:22 < fenn> for certain definitions of humanism
16:24 < fenn> if taiwan, singapore, japan, and california all get nuked tomorrow, that would stop moore's law pretty quick
16:26 < jrayhawk> kanzure: if you want to do a video, it's possible you should round up some futurist-minded folks for a VOIP conference to hash out the questions
16:28 < fenn> oh
16:28 < fenn> "If nothing really disruptive happens in the mean time (major nuclear war, substantial human intelligence enhancement, human-level AI, etc.), when will Moore's law level off?"
16:28 < jrayhawk> moore's law is about transistor density, not about computation power
16:29 < jrayhawk> actually i suppose it stopped being about density ages ago, even
16:29 < jrayhawk> total transistor count
16:29 < fenn> it was originally about transistor count
16:30 < fenn> anyway, we've answered that question i think
16:31 < fenn> "How much computing power would be required to simulate a human brain (perhaps at an abstract level)?"
16:31 < fenn> jrayhawk thinks 10^17 TFLOPS
16:31 < jrayhawk> i seriously doubt it's that high
16:31 < jrayhawk> that's, like, molecular level
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16:32 < jrayhawk> i guess the worst case scenario is still interesting
16:33 < fenn> i think there may be some problems with connecting different parts of the computer together, because our assumptions about cost per flop don't say anything about latency
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16:36 < fenn> this is a really hard question and it would take years to answer properly
16:39 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/theuncertainfuture/?C=M;O=A
16:39 < kanzure> there.
16:42 < fenn> first order approximation; if we have a 10nm voxel grid of the brain and each voxel takes 1000 floating point operations to simulate 1 millisecond, that's 1000*1000*(1e8)^3 = 1e30 FLOPS
16:45 < kanzure> why 10 nm voxel resolution?
16:45 < kanzure> what's going on there
16:45 < kanzure> oh
16:45 < fenn> is that too small?
16:45 < fenn> i was being conservative
16:46 < fenn> some people think that voltages on synapses matter, and there's this compartment model neuron stuff
16:46 < kanzure> "Diameter of a neuron = 4 to 100 microns"
16:47 < kanzure> hrm.
16:47 < kanzure> i should know this
16:47 < fenn> diameter of a neurotransmitter receptor = 10 nm
16:48 < kanzure> so, i do remember that markram wanted to be careful about where receptors and ion channels are located on cell membranes
16:48 < superkuh> Also about the thickness of the lipid bilayer.
16:48 < kanzure> but i don't recall if he was particularly interested in simulating every single one of them
16:49 < kanzure> how did this happen? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/theuncertainfuture/tuf-a10.png
16:49 < kanzure> and this one? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/theuncertainfuture/tuf-a9.png
16:49 < kanzure> unfortunately every time i run through this program the output always look like that
16:49 < fenn> how did you get the answers already, we havent even done the questions
16:50 < kanzure> i figured it was taking too long, so i would take screenshots
16:50 < kanzure> instead of painfully describing each question
16:50 < kanzure> and the type of input it wants
16:50 < kanzure> i am willing to go back and edit in answers from the channel
16:50 < kanzure> but not willing to describe every stray pixel
16:51 < fenn> i found the url for the questions at http://theuncertainfuture.com/ufHelp/Q3.html (edit number for different question)
16:51 < kanzure> yes but it doesn't say the format of the answer it wants
16:52 < kanzure> these curves are worse than bitcoin's hockey stick
16:52 < fenn> who the hell thinks like this anyway, "obviously the answer is 10^17 std dev 10^0.212
16:52 < kanzure> steve
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16:53 < jrayhawk> haha
16:54 < jrayhawk> the bayesian conspiracy
16:55 < fenn> i'm not at all confident in any of these answers
16:57 < kanzure> not even the one about whole genome sequencing? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/theuncertainfuture/tuf-q9-1.png
16:59 < fenn> why is that even a question
16:59 < kanzure> human enhancement speedup of research stuff
16:59 < kanzure> intelligence amplification
16:59 < kanzure> feedback loops etc
16:59 < fenn> human genome is definitely not the first thing i think of wrt intelligence amplification
17:00 < kanzure> i think he is keeping these questions vague so that they cancel each other out when multiplied/added or something
17:01 < kanzure> btw this was the project where i went out to singinst and found him
17:01 < kanzure> or where he found me. i don't know.
17:01 < fenn> i guess the idea is "even if computers suck, we'll have IA"
17:02 < fenn> i find it unlikely we'll ever have legal human genetic engineering
17:03 < kanzure> yeah let's outlaw meiosis?
17:05 < fenn> there will probably be some stupid war led by Judd Bush the third and i'll be on the receiving end of it
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17:08 < fenn> 80% chance in 2020 eh
17:09 < kanzure> i think i am just to optimistic in general about these things
17:09 < kanzure> because straight upward curves so soon don't make much sense
17:10 < kanzure> back in 2008 or whatever i was also getting straight upward curves. although it was not 2008-ish.
17:13 < fenn> well hey man we've got cheetah robots and universal translators that fit in a pocket...
17:13 < fenn> did those exist in 2008?
17:14 < kanzure> does that help though
17:16 < fenn> the 80% in 2020 graph was "non-neuromorphic AI" which is sort of a slippery concept
17:16 < kanzure> that was not an input
17:17 < fenn> if a cheetah robot can look around and tell me my socks don't match in any of 400 languages, it may well qualify
17:17 < kanzure> that graph was the output of the system
17:17 < kanzure> tab says "A" for answer i guess
17:17 < fenn> so i'm thinking about "how does what we know now revise your inputs in 2008"
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17:20 < kanzure> i have no idea what my inputs were
17:23 < fenn> why does the risk of nuclear war go down? it should go up because more people get nuclear weapons as technology gets cheaper
17:23 < kanzure> i imagined we get space travel
17:23 < kanzure> i guess that's not fair of me
17:26 < fenn> ditto for climate change
17:27 < fenn> in my mind the only way to fix climate change is if everyone gets a nuclear reactor and starts pumping out diamonds
17:28 < fenn> or polyethylene
17:30 < fenn> wow even with your answers the probability of some non-AI catastrophe is 50% by 2020
17:32 < kanzure> hrm.
17:32 < kanzure> so either the math is right, and everyone should constantly be terrified for their lives
17:32 < kanzure> or the math is wrong, and for some reason the world hasn't exploded yet
17:32 < jrayhawk> http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf most of my intuitions come from this; are there better papers i should be working from?
17:32 < kanzure> no
17:32 < fenn> thats all she wrote
17:33 < fenn> game over, you are all probably dead
17:33 < kanzure> bayesian kenshiro?
17:34 < jrayhawk> you are already significantly dead ( p < 0.05 )
17:35 < fenn> robotic cheetah staring open-mouthed at flaming asteroid falling from the sky
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17:37 < kanzure> hm you know maybe i was interpreting that not as a progress halt but just a slowdown factor
17:38 < kanzure> whereas an entire global halt would have to be something like the planet blowing up
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17:42 < fenn> i wonder whether science funding would go up or down if an asteroid took out a major populated area
17:43  * fenn hacks into the rosetta propulsion system
17:48 < superkuh> Humanity missed a big opportunity with comet sliding spring. If we had nudged it into Mars we'd be a quarter way to terraforming it and people could see the dangers and military promise of space infrastructure.
17:48 < jrayhawk> superkuh for benevolent dictator
17:50 < fenn> it was way out of the plane of the ecliptic; how would we have gotten anywhere near it?
17:50 < jrayhawk> the solution to all problems is project orion
17:51 < superkuh> Given the time available.... I don't know. But in the future, electrostatic solar sails put on to h-reversal trajectories to maximize velocity difference.
17:54 < superkuh> http://arxiv.org/abs/1108.3183 , etc, except with electrostatic sails for even better performance and control.
17:55 < fenn> not only to you have to accelerate in one direction long enough to get out there in time, you also have to then accelerate in a different direction to nudge it the right way
18:02 < fenn> the h-trajectory is a neat idea, i wouldn't have thought of that
18:05 < jrayhawk> ugh, build.jardesc instead of build.xml
18:13 < kanzure> hmm https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5267
18:13  * kanzure grows a beard and strokes it
18:15 < jrayhawk> oh, your neckbeard picture disappeared from heybryan.org
18:18 < kanzure> blah i didn't update coin selection today. i should go do that.
18:18 < kanzure> passing in a list of 100,000 outputs over rpc seems silly to me
18:20 < kanzure> and it would be nice to write software that doesn't immediately fail whenever that sort of thing changes
18:20 < kanzure> *load chnages
18:20 < kanzure> *changes
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18:58 < kanzure> cache-timing attacks on aes (bernstein) http://cr.yp.to/antiforgery/cachetiming-20050414.pdf
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20:12 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | not intentionally unrepeatable
20:12 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Fri Jun  6 17:48:33 2014]
20:12 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
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22:58 < kanzure> everyone got really boring
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23:10 < kanzure> haha why is melanie swan associating herself with ieet and bitcoin.
23:10 < kanzure> blah
23:10 < kanzure> ieet: a brand you wouldn't even want on your shoe
23:11 < justanotheruser> kanzure: shouldn't you be asleep?
23:11 < kanzure> fuck that
23:12 < justanotheruser> so, please bring me in the loop, who is melanie swan, what is wrong with ieet and what is bitcoin
23:12 < kanzure> melanie swan is just some transhumanist
23:12 < kanzure> ieet is some anti-transhumanist hellhole
23:12 < justanotheruser> their name implies they want ethics
23:13 < kanzure> melanie isn't very much of a software person so i'm not sure why she's so certain that the blockchain is good for all the things she's proposing
23:13 < justanotheruser> are their "ethics" overbearing?
23:13 < kanzure> their ethics aren't ethics
23:13 < kanzure> they are more like poo flingers
23:14 < kanzure> this is the closest thing to any sort of practical ethics in transhumanism http://web.archive.org/web/20130709183013/http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm
23:14 < kanzure> besides http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration
23:16 < justanotheruser> was she the lady you linked about solving some genome problem or uploading your genome to a blockchain?
23:16 < kanzure> hmm are you sure the genome blockchain stuff was a lady
23:16 < justanotheruser> nope
23:16 < kanzure> i don't think so
23:17 < kanzure> "the gnome problem? who gives a rat's ass about the gnomes? let them be."
23:17 < justanotheruser> just thought that might have been here since that project is an intersection of bitcoin ideas, dumb person ideas and h+ ideas, all three of which you're saying this person has.
23:17 < kanzure> ".. oh.."
23:18 < kanzure> this is her now http://blockchainstudies.org/
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23:18 < justanotheruser> o_O
23:19 < justanotheruser> Envision blockchain healthtech apps like Personal Health Record Storage, Health Research Commons, Health Document Notary Services, and Doctor Vendor RFP Services
23:19 < kanzure> "Bitcoin 3.0" yeah good luck with co-opting bitcoind's versioning scheme
23:19 < kanzure> ugh
23:20 < kanzure> storing entire health databases in the blockchain is a terrible idea
23:20 < justanotheruser> its like she searched '"blockchain technology" inurl:/r/bitcoin' and designed her website based on what she read
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23:27 < justanotheruser> My theory is bitcoin interests people in cryptography and these people assume bitcoin is unique in its ability to do things like be "pseudonymous (e.g.; coded to a digital address not a name)" and restricting things using cryptography ("Users would permission doctors and other parties into their records as needed via their private key"). Rather than using these two components separately to form a new cryptosystem, they ...
23:27 < justanotheruser> ... redefine things like "assets" to be the data they want to store: "personal health records would be encoded as digital assets and put on the blockchain just like other assets like currency (bitcoin, litecoin, dogecoin, etc.)."
23:28 < justanotheruser> She is pretending sharing data between many parties (at least one of which is being monetarily incentivized by you) is an unsolved problem before blockchain technology.
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--- Log closed Thu Nov 13 00:00:49 2014