--- Log opened Thu Nov 20 00:00:56 2014
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01:23 < NilsAFK> re
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01:41 < ebowden> http://www.nature.com/srep/2014/141118/srep07089/pdf/srep07089.pdf
01:42 < ebowden> I wonder if Valproic acid would help make the changes permanent.
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04:48 < eudoxia> 1http://chronopause.com/chronopause.com/index.php/2011/05/30/going-going-gone/index.html#comment-2379
04:48 < eudoxia> >Here’s my plan to rejuvenate my ageing brain–and body: Secure three or four aborted male caucasian first trimester fetuses.
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06:43 <@kanzure> eudoxia: i'm sure that can be arranged
06:44 <@kanzure> fenn: you sometimes do learn things about that secret, though
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07:01 < archels> and they will magically migrate into the brain and magically find the right position and magically sprout the right connections
07:02 <@kanzure> the fetuses will?
07:02 <@kanzure> oh, stem cells probably?
07:02 < archels> the transplanted cells
07:03 < superkuh> Inject them into my eyes, please.
07:05 < archels> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jnc.12969/pdf
07:05 < archels> .title
07:05 < yoleaux> Aging and Brain Rejuvenation as Systemic Events - Bouchard - Journal of Neurochemistry - Wiley Online Library
07:07 < archels> paperbot: http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fcell.2014.00016/pdf
07:07 < archels> .title
07:07 < yoleaux> archels: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
07:08 < archels> "Aging-related diseases are related to a deficiency of the immune system, which results from an aged thymus and bone marrow cells. Intra bone marrow-bone marrow transplantation (IBM-BMT) is a useful method to treat intractable diseases."
07:10 < archels> "[the thymus] atrophies at puberty. Unlike the liver, kidney and heart, for instance, the thymus is at its largest in children. The thymus reaches maximum weight (20 to 37 grams) by the time of puberty. The thymus of older people is scarcely distinguishable from surrounding fatty tissue. As one ages the thymus slowly shrinks, eventually degenerating into tiny islands of fatty tissue. By the age of 75 years, the thymus weighs only 6 grams."
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07:11 <@kanzure> hmm i guess it's unlikely for an old person to get bone marrow transplants at the moment
07:11 <@kanzure> because usually old people are more easily immune compromised or something
07:12 <@kanzure> or, bone marrow transplants are only considered when there's already an immune-compromising problem i suppose
07:12 <@kanzure> (just thinking through what sort of evidence we can pull up from the interwebs)
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07:14 < archels> I'm not sure how compatible stem cells from a random fetus would be
07:15 < archels> should we invest some money into extracting and cryogenically storing our own stem cells while we're young?
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07:19 < kanzure> archels: you could probably answer that with some very simple math and i'm sure the answer would be "yes"
07:20 < kanzure> it's too bad that storing eggs requires some up-front hormone regiments
07:20 < kanzure> because that is apparently preventing lots of people from storing tissue when they're young
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07:38 < archels> not much of a problem for us male nerds
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10:02 < delinquentme> marketing via religion bashing and insecurities are pretty effective
10:30 < fenn> wow "Currently about 1/3rd of every healthcare dollar in the West is spent on people in the last year of their lives."
10:32 < fenn> why can't we experiment on old people again? they're just going to die anyway
10:36 < fenn> my great grandma was just waiting to die for a whole decade, she thought she had nothing left to do
10:36 < fenn> excuse me ma'am, can I borrow your body, for science
10:40 < fenn> ebowden can you get me a couple dozen old nuns
10:41 < fenn> the vatican is pretty pro-science; just need to frame the question correctly
10:48 < kanzure> "donating your body to science after you die is nice and all, but before you die would be cool too, you know"
10:49 < nmz787_i> srsly
10:49 < nmz787_i> I wonder if that's easier in Oregon with their euthanasia laws
10:50 < fenn> the idea is that they don't die
10:54 < nmz787_i> well I mean that there is already legal precedent for allowing people to make choices that could result in death, like if the experimental treatment fails
10:57 < fenn> what does that have to do with euthanasia
10:58 < fenn> experimental treatment has been around for a long time, and always carries some risk. but pure research on humans has not been feasible because the benefit is perceived as zero since "there is no disease"
10:59 < kanzure> it is unethical to punch slower than would cause euthanization
10:59 < fenn> ouch
11:00 < fenn> punch slowly, my friends
11:01 < kanzure> "pull your punches"
11:03 < kanzure> https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/140987273/download?client_id=b45b1aa10f1ac2941910a7f0d10f8e28
11:12 < fenn> if you lose "10,000 brain cells a day" that's only 0.3% over the course of 100 years
11:18 < fenn> these numbers were a lot different than i expected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons#Cerebral_cortex
11:23 < archels> fenn: that 10k cells thing is an urban myth, anyway
11:23 < fenn> yes i know
11:23 < fenn> obviously the number is much higher
11:25 < fenn> also we now know that brain cells can regenerate
11:25 < kanzure> "They can't seize a shipment of schematics." well.....
11:25 < fenn> the microfilm, mister bond
11:25 < archels> much higher?
11:26 < fenn> "If the human brain has a weight of 1.4 kg (1400 grams) and there were about 100 billion neurons, then it can be calculated that there are approximately 70 million neurons per gram.
11:26 < fenn> Now, when people lose a gram of brain mass per year, meaning that the brain loses 70 million neurons per year, or about 190 thousand damaged, slowing down, or dying brain cells per day."
11:26 < archels> last time I looked into it there wasn't even a downward trend
11:26 < fenn> huh?
11:26 < archels> losing a gram of neuropil does not necessarily imply that any neurons or glia are lost at all
11:27 < fenn> RESULTS: Both %GM and %WM in the intracranial space were significantly less in older subjects (≥50 years) than in younger subjects (<50 years)
11:28 < fenn> CONCLUSION: GM volume loss appears to be a constant, linear function of age throughout adult life, whereas WM volume loss seems to be delayed until middle adult life.
11:29 < fenn> archels: so you're saying the cells themselves shrink?
11:31 < archels> something like that, or changes in myelination/consolidation of connectivity
11:31 < archels> paperbot: http://www.turingbirds.com/temp/410210603_ftp.pdf
11:31 < kanzure> wah paperbot is still not doing things
11:33 < fenn> "neocortical cell counts in normal human adult aging"
11:34 < nmz787_i> why don't we have paperbot and paperbot2?
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11:37 < fenn> in that paper they are saying neurons die and regenerate, and glia increase with age
11:37 < fenn> but total number of neurons remains constant
11:41 < fenn> but young people have larger neurons
11:49 < fenn> i wish gf and gc were the standard measures of intelligence, this IQ stuff is confusing
11:50 < fenn> who cares how old you are
11:56 < fenn> if you eat a lot of turmeric (curcumin) does this make your brain turn yellow?
12:02 < fenn> "the Indian brains were often stained faint yellow from years of curry eating (remember that curcumin crosses the blood-brain barrier, so this should be expected) but by his inspection these brains had youthful cell densities in the cortex.
12:02 < fenn> The British brains, by contrast, having suffered through many decades of damaging high-fat diets, and without the protection of curcumin, were normal colored but appeared to have about half the cell densities of the Indian brains."
12:03 < fenn> "Another interesting fact about curcumin is that it is also the only known therapy other than caloric restriction that reliably will reliably extend lifespan (about 10-12%) in laboratory mice."  hrm
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12:23 < fenn> "Significant positive correlations have been found between grey matter volume in elderly persons and measures of semantic and short-term memory. No significant correlations with white matter volume were found."
12:24 < fenn> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/000169186790011X
12:24 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Age%20differences%20in%20fluid%20and%20crystallized%20intelligence%0A%20.pdf
12:28 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/age_differences_in_fluid_and_crystallized_intelligence.pdf
12:28 < kanzure> i had a good argument against paperbot2 and paperbot1
12:28 < kanzure> 11:12 < kanzure> right now neither of them work
12:28 < kanzure> 11:12 < kanzure> so having two things that don't work wont be helpful
12:28 < kanzure> thank you, kanzure, that is an excellent argument
12:29 < kanzure> 11:13 < kanzure> do whatever you want, within the limits of 1) do the right thing, 2) don't be lazy, 3) pretend i'll kickban you if you make bad implementation choices
12:29 < kanzure> 11:17 < fenn> oh my god i am so underwhelmed by this
12:29 < fenn> underwhelmed by what
12:30 < kanzure> well, crossref.org, but i took some editorial license there.
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12:32 < kanzure> i wonder if anyone has done mouse brain window monitoring for cellular aging reasons
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14:19 < faceface_> worm brain lego?
14:19 < faceface_> http://www.i-programmer.info/news/105-artificial-intelligence/7985
14:19 < faceface_> prolly old news
14:21 < kanzure> hello faceface_
14:21 < faceface_> hihi
14:25 < faceface_> so... publication models like wikipedia could only exist on the internet
14:25 < faceface_> they are 'web-native'
14:25 < faceface_> what types of financial 'product' can only exist on blockchain type technologies?
14:26 < faceface_> what are the native 'bottom up' type financial technologies going to be?
14:26 < kanzure> any financial scheme can be emulated without a blockchain
14:26 < faceface_> sure
14:27 < fenn> trustless smart contracts
14:27 < faceface_> but blockchain facilitates, like wp does
14:27 < faceface_> fenn: but how will that scale to thousands of people?
14:27 < kanzure> i don't think "trustless smart contracts" need a blockchain or anti-replay attack prevention
14:27 < faceface_> ok, I was going to say 'bitcoin' but tried to step back by saying 'block chain'
14:27 < faceface_> actually I don't care
14:28 < fenn> kanzure: something has to validate the contract
14:28 < faceface_> what I mean is, if we can each act somewhat like a bank, what can emerge?
14:28 < kanzure> anyone should be capable of verifying a "trustless smart contract"
14:28 < fenn> but you have to know what the inputs are
14:29 < kanzure> so you get told the inputs
14:29 < fenn> but how can you believe that what you're being told is true
14:29 < kanzure> cryptography
14:29 < fenn> no, that just keeps other people from listening in
14:30 < kanzure> keeps people from forging your signature
14:30 < kanzure> *makes it extremely difficult to forge your signature
14:30 < fenn> now you've only verified that "bob sent this message" but you don't know if what bob is telling you is true or not
14:30 < faceface_> regardless... what could we do with 1G multi-sig?
14:30 < faceface_> 500k of 1G?
14:31 < kanzure> unfortunately you will have trouble with people registering multiple times
14:31 < faceface_> ah
14:31 < fenn> seems like nothing would ever get done if 1 billion signatures are required
14:31 < faceface_> is that a problem if registration costs 1k?
14:32 < kanzure> now only the rich can register lots of times
14:32 < faceface_> fenn: unless it was to pay out 100 trillion
14:32 < fenn> huh
14:32 < faceface_> kanzure: only the rich can use complex financial 'products'
14:32 < kanzure> huh?
14:32  * faceface_ has no clue where this is going either
14:33 < faceface_> I'm just curious about the idea of highly distributed finance
14:33 < fenn> so we have a big lottery gambling on whether everyone on the entire planet can cooperate at the same time?
14:33 < faceface_> fenn: isn't that pretty much the system we have?
14:33 < fenn> no
14:33 < faceface_> how did you chose your parents?
14:33 < fenn> if i refuse to cooperate, guys with guns come and take me away
14:34 < fenn> you aren't making any sense
14:34 < faceface_> Somehow 'crowd funding' seems to be cludging an old model into a new system
14:34 < faceface_> fenn: I never made any such promise... (sorry)
14:35 < faceface_> sorry if this is a totally absurd line of thinking
14:35 < kanzure> faceface_: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/fanaticism/if-i-was-chairman-of-the-fed.yaml
14:35 < faceface_> but basically it comes down to something like 'traditional books are to wikipedia as traditional financial instruments are to ...'
14:36 < kanzure> wikipedia did not invent digital content
14:38 < kanzure> i know you're looking for big ideas but i don't think they happen this way
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14:39 < faceface_> kanzure: of course wp is just one example that happens to be big in it's own way
14:39 < faceface_> but it's sucess is dependent on it's medium
14:40 < faceface_> traditional publishing works in that medium too, it's just not taking full advantage of what can be done
14:40 < fenn> traditional publishing does not allow everyone and their grandma to edit the article
14:40 < faceface_> indeed
14:41 < kanzure> wikipedia doesn't either
14:41 < faceface_> I heard recently blogs being described as another 'internet native' form of publishing
14:41 < fenn> traditional publishing only allows ~2 people to edit the article
14:41 < faceface_> something that just doesn't work outside of the web
14:42 < kanzure> fenn, that sounds like a version control issue, not a publishing issue
14:42 < faceface_> wp and wikis generally are something new to the internet, and they seem to work ther
14:42 < fenn> there were zines before blogs, but they took more effort to prepare and distribute
14:43 < fenn> kanzure: no it's intentional, to preserve the author's voice and the editor's discretion, or something
14:43 < kanzure> haha
14:43 < faceface_> right, the web has allowed blogs, wikis and distributed development via version contorl to flourish
14:43 < fenn> kanzure: that's the point of CC-BY-ND
14:43 < kanzure> git does not require the web to work
14:44 < fenn> sorta
14:44 < faceface_> so, given these technologies can broady be described as 'web native', something uniquely successfull on the web, what's next for finance given bitcoin like technologies?
14:44 < fenn> exporting patches is a laborious process
14:44 < faceface_> and beside the point ;-)
14:45 < jrayhawk> linux development doesn't use the web at all
14:45 < kanzure> faceface_: http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/speculative-attack/
14:45 < jrayhawk> it's all git, git+ssh, and smtp
14:46 < jrayhawk> well, no, i guess that's not true. some people actually try to use bugzilla.
14:46 < fenn> he means "networking technologies"
14:46 < kanzure> well he's confused
14:46 < fenn> not http or whatever you're implying
14:46 < kanzure> people make a big deal out of wikipedia being digital native or something, but really it's just some different policies or something
14:47 < kanzure> faceface_: there's a lot of room for bitcoin to grow into the existing financial ecosystem
14:48 < faceface_> kanzure: right
14:49 < faceface_> yeah, when I say web I'm confused.
14:49 < kanzure> things like teleporting money around the world instantly
14:49 < faceface_> sure
14:49 < faceface_> but that doesn't interest me as much
14:49 < kanzure> auditing is going to be turned around eventually
14:49 < fenn> something about bankless people in africa
14:49 < faceface_> kanzure: you can reduce wp to policy, but the fact is that that policy is a good fit with the www
14:50 < kanzure> from a "he-said-she-said" ordeal to a ledger-based proof system of some kind
14:50 < fenn> or areas where the government is non-existent
14:50 < kanzure> i think wikipedia could work just fine without www
14:50 < fenn> how would you contribute
14:50 < kanzure> local editing
14:50 < faceface_> I'm curious about new types of economic instrument supported by 'bitcoin-like' things
14:50 < fenn> how do other people see your contributions
14:51 < jrayhawk> various text files used to be mutated in free-form as they were passed around BBSes
14:51 < kanzure> you send them to those people
14:51 < fenn> who do you send them to?
14:51 < kanzure> how is this a hard problem?
14:51 < kanzure> are you guys crazy
14:51 < fenn> it never happened, there must be a reason
14:51 < faceface_> kanzure: what's your point?
14:51 < kanzure> fenn: nobody wanted to, version control sucked, etc.
14:51 < faceface_> wp is one of the top 10 sites in the world, and it's had tremendous growth
14:52 < fenn> but the promise of vast knowledge must have been apparent to some
14:52 < kanzure> faceface_: so you don't like the audit stuff? hmm
14:52 < kanzure> faceface_: maybe you can be more specific about what you're trying to get out of me
14:52 < faceface_> hehe
14:52 < faceface_> :-)
14:52 < kanzure> zero knowledge proofs?
14:52 < faceface_> just some interesting bedtime chatter
14:53 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/
14:53 < kanzure> and http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/
14:53 < faceface_> sorry for being a pain in the assets
14:53 < fenn> also BBS is a networking technology
14:53 < kanzure> how about cryptowall and other ransomware?
14:53 < faceface_> ty
14:54 < faceface_> night
14:54 < kanzure> are you trying to make me say "dapps"?
14:54 < faceface_> lol
14:54 < kanzure> seeya
14:54 < fenn> .g dapps
14:54 < yoleaux> http://college.cengage.com/masterstudent/toft/master_student_guide/1e/students/success_strategies/article_set_goal_pt_03.html
14:54 < kanzure> .g bitcoin dapps jonston OR ltb
14:54 < yoleaux> http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-139-the-validity-of-appcoins
14:54 < faceface_> .g etherium skynet
14:54 < yoleaux> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/events/luncheon/2014/04/difilippi
14:55 < jrayhawk> fenn: speaking is a networking technology
14:56 < faceface_> meh
14:56 < kanzure> don't be too discouraged
14:56 < fenn> yes and if you got a million people in a room, they'd maybe create something like wikipedia
14:56 < jrayhawk> someone should to an equivalent to "TCP/IP over carrier pidgin" for "FidoNET over word-oF-mouth"
14:57 < jrayhawk> s/to an/do an/
14:57 < jrayhawk> s/pidgin/pidgeon/
14:57 < fenn> i'm not watching some bitcoin podcast
14:57 < kanzure> you can read the comments at the bottom
14:57 < kanzure> it doesn't matter
14:58 < kanzure> it's just "everything needs its own blockchain because blockchainz yo"
14:58 < kanzure> http://startupboy.com/2014/03/09/the-bitcoin-model-for-crowdfunding/
14:58 < kanzure> the problem is that these ideas are terrible and don't understand why the blockchain works at all
14:58 < fenn> don't these people know about network effects
14:59 < kanzure> no
14:59 < fenn> where's my cluestick
14:59 < kanzure> you left it in 2027
14:59  * fenn sleeps for 13 years
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15:57 < nmz787_i> .title http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/12/dna-denaturation-and-renaturation-and.html
15:57 < yoleaux> Sandwalk: DNA Denaturation and Renaturation and the Role of Hydrogen Bonds and Stacking Interactions
15:57 < nmz787_i> "Secondly, note that stacking interactions involving G/C base pairs are stronger (more negative) than those involving A/T base pairs. This is why the melting temperature of DNA depends on the base composition. It's not because G/C base pairs have one more hydrogen bond than A/T base pairs, it's because G/C base pairs form stronger stacking interactions."
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16:38 < kanzure> rails-based bitcoin exchange https://github.com/peatio/peatio
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16:46 < kanzure> (don't do what they do)
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17:00 < kanzure> 16:59 <@Gwern-away> kanzure: yes, the question here is for a consumer: if I run out right this second, how much money do I need to throw at someone to get my genome sequenced? as far as I know, illumina requires a physician to sign off
17:00 < kanzure> what......
17:01 < fenn> in 2009 "the cost of a human genome is about $1k, and the price is $10k and falling"
17:01 < fenn> so my guess is somewhere around $2500
17:02 < kanzure> yep https://www.scienceexchange.com/services/illumina-ngs
17:02 < kanzure> but it's the physician sign off that worries me
17:02 < kanzure> why would illumina know whether or not you are being sequenced at all?
17:03 < fenn> huh
17:03 < kanzure> gwern claims "illumina requires a physician to sign off"
17:03 < fenn> ask gwern then
17:10 < nmz787> my med school friend says insurance will pay for it if your doc says you need it
17:11 < nmz787> since they don't know how to determine if it is or insn't required
17:12 < fenn> who "needs" a genome sequence
17:13 < fenn> the guy with the mutation that will kill him in 10 years but he doesn't know about?
17:13 < Burninate> "I want to find out if my congenital disability would be passed on to children I have with my girlfriend" perhaps?
17:14 < kanzure> your genome wont tell you whether or not you will forget to do genetic engineering
17:14 < Burninate> I got a report to that effect unsolicited from Kaiser Permanente, after they recieved the records of very comprehensive blood tests done a few years ago to diagnose a coagulation disorder
17:17 < Burninate> http://pastebin.com/kx4JdEZP
17:20 < fenn> its like trial by ordeal. "yep, this person definitely should have had their genome sequenced, because they died"
17:26 < nmz787> it's more like the opposite.. they have no precedent to deny it
17:26 < fenn> 'San Francisco-based GeneHub has plans to become the first company selling whole genome sequences to all comers'
17:27 < fenn> srsly, why did it take this long
17:27 < fenn> $3490/genome
17:27 < fenn> oh, but it failed.
17:27  * fenn reads slow
17:34 < bbrittain> http://www.wired.com/2014/11/opentrons-bio-robots/?utm_content=bufferde4f8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
17:35 < bbrittain> It's like they want to disappoint people and cause the equivelant of the AI winter :/
17:35 < bbrittain> fuckers
17:36 < bbrittain> don't bother clicking that. all you need to know is the title is "This Robot Could Make Creating New Life Forms As Easy As Coding An App"
17:36 < kanzure> huh, the url is very deceptive
17:36 < kanzure> .title
17:36 < yoleaux> This Robot Could Make Creating New Life Forms As Easy As Coding An App | WIRED
17:36 < kanzure> yep.. deception confirmed.
17:36 < kanzure> i wonder if this is opentrons' fault
17:36 < kanzure> like, did they feed this bullshit to them, or is this wired's own bullshit?
17:37 < bbrittain> I blame the indie.bio thing/peoplez
17:37 < bbrittain> they are tthe worst
17:37 < kanzure> indie.bio was cathal garvey
17:38 < kanzure> you're probably right, but can you provide your evidence anyway?
17:38 < bbrittain> https://twitter.com/indbio/status/535528860758982656
17:38 < bbrittain> not evidence, but they support it
17:40 < fenn> opentrons looks okay for what it is; it needed a hype boost apparently
17:40 < fenn> i would be sad if their kickstarter failed
17:40 < bbrittain> opentrons is... meh
17:41 < kanzure> at least they are using actually open-source-related licenses on their hardware
17:41 < bbrittain> It doesn't enable anything new
17:41 < kanzure> compared to the other group that was trying to be "open source" by fucking over commercial users
17:41 < fenn> it's meh enough that it fills the gaping void that has existed in the diy bio robotics space for decades
17:41 < kanzure> yeah i wouldn't blame this marketing on opentrons really
17:42 < kanzure> this is definitely wired's fault
17:42 < fenn> By Marcus Wohlsen  
17:42 < bbrittain> yea, but these indy.bio people are *really loud*
17:42 < kanzure> compare to http://www.opentrons.com/
17:43 < fenn> i don't see any "indy.bio"
17:43 < fenn> http://indybiosystems.com/
17:43 < fenn> probably not that
17:43 < kanzure> indybio is the sosventures arm that cathal garvey, jacob shiach and ryan bethencourt are involved with
17:45 < bbrittain> those people can all be summed up as really loud people who don't talk the talk but don't walk it... and tell everyone that we are currently running.
17:45 < bbrittain> remove that first don't
17:46 < nmz787> cathal is well-grounded IMO and not a loud-mouth AFAIK
17:46 < kanzure> i see that you've been indoctrinated by ginkgo
17:47 < kanzure> they are angry because a lot of those people are non-academics
17:47 < kanzure> so you have to factor that into the equation
17:47 < fenn> bbrittain: do you mean DIYbio?
17:47 < nmz787> jacob used to seem very techie/sciency but then seemed to dive into biz more and less of the former
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17:47 < bbrittain> fenn: hah hah. yes and no
17:48 < bbrittain> fenn: https://twitter.com/indbio
17:48 < bbrittain> but still yes
17:48 < bbrittain> kanzure: uhhh. I'm not an academic
17:48 < bbrittain> in the slightest
17:48 < kanzure> i did not claim you are an academic
17:48 < kanzure> wtf
17:48 < bbrittain> "indoctrinated by ginkgo"
17:48 < kanzure> yeah?
17:48 < nmz787> bbrittain: dude you went to my school
17:48 < kanzure> that has nothing to do with whether or not you are an academic
17:48 < bbrittain> nmz787: still haven't graduated :)
17:49 < nmz787> bbrittain: me neither!
17:49  * bbrittain high-fives nmz787
17:49  * nmz787 says in a boastful manner
17:49 < kanzure> why do you guys keep discovering that you went to the same school
17:49 < nmz787> :P
17:49 < bbrittain> :D
17:49 < kanzure> you know this has happened before right?
17:49 < kanzure> between you two
17:49 < bbrittain> yes
17:49 < kanzure> k
17:49 < nmz787> kanzure: well i think of myself as an academic as a result of it
17:49 < kanzure> what
17:49 < kanzure> you didn't spend 200 years as a postdoc
17:49 < nmz787> going to klown kollege
17:49 < bbrittain> oh, I think of grad school as the start of academia
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17:50 < kanzure> right, that's certainly closer
17:50 < kanzure> maybe if you're in a lab during undergrad the whole time or something
17:50 < nmz787> no, but I know the system more than someone who never went
17:50 < kanzure> knowing the system doesn't make you an academic :P
17:50 < nmz787> idk most of my RIT days were lab dayz
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17:50 < bbrittain> true dat. I spend enought time drinking with MIT profs that I know it pretty well
17:50 < nmz787> hmm
17:50 < bbrittain> s/enought/enough/
17:51 < nmz787> guess that's the reality of ignorance
17:51 < nmz787> i don't even know i didn't know
17:51 < bbrittain> seriously, academia sounds so depressing it's like:
17:51 < kanzure> slavery
17:51 < kanzure> destitute
17:51 < fenn> indentured servitude
17:51 < bbrittain> "hey! you are a rising star! you did everything super fast and right! now be a post-doc in my lab for 8 years doing grunt work and come out with no skills"
17:51 < kanzure> blacker than the blackest black times infinity
17:52 < fenn> no it's finite
17:52 < bbrittain> fenn: tell some people that
17:52 < fenn> that's what makes people think it's worthwhile
17:53 < fenn> .wik indentured servitude
17:53 < yoleaux> "Indentured servitude was a labor system where by young people paid for their passage to the New World by working for an employer for a certain number of years." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude
17:53 < nmz787> bbrittain: so are you saying these self-proclaimed 'academics' are really just persuadable and have no self-motivation/determination?
17:53 < bbrittain> umm, some of them certainly
17:53 < kanzure> they have self-motivation but it is all invested in bad circumstances
17:54 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgMf2Go-qCE
17:54 < yoleaux> Blacker Than the Blackest Black | Metalocalypse | Adult Swim - YouTube
17:54 < bbrittain> but really it's that they have no... passion? that's not right but it is that they can't see beyond the path layed out for them
17:54 < bbrittain> they don't recognize that it doesn't mean shit
17:54 < bbrittain> I hear things like "well, where else would I learn that except grad school?"
17:55 < bbrittain> and I'm like "RIGHT NOW. YOU WORK IN A LAB FULL OF ROBOTS AND INTERSTING PEOPLE"
17:55 < bbrittain> hint, I'm bitching about a fellow intern
17:55 < kanzure> hehe
17:55 < kanzure> send the intern here
17:55 < kanzure> we will fix that
17:55 < bbrittain> hahahahahahahahahah
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17:55 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/WX4ldIj1JNI
17:55 < yoleaux> Frederik de Wilde: The blackest black in the world - YouTube
17:56 < fenn> uh nevermind it's a ted talk
17:56 < bbrittain> I think I'm the only intern out of four that really gets it
17:56 < bbrittain> hence why tk and I bond so well :P
17:57 < bbrittain> he's actually a super chill guy
17:57 < kanzure> when he's not writing hate mail to me
17:57 < nmz787> he got scared away from the diybio list but /does/ still pop in, once or twice in the past 2 or 3 years
17:57 < nmz787> he sent me a good amount of feedback
17:57 < kanzure> hehe
17:57 < nmz787> always good refs
17:57 < bbrittain> I'm trying to help him with some of his meso stuff
17:58 < nmz787> http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2014/11/mattels-computer-engineer-barbie-leaves-the-computer-engineering-to-the-boys.html
17:59 < nmz787> what a lame book
18:00 < bbrittain> zomg. yes thats a problem. but so is the first link
18:00 < bbrittain> like. who cares about his shirt.
18:01 < bbrittain> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/24/petri-dish-pop
18:01 < fenn> somehow shitty barbie books are our fault?
18:02 < bbrittain> also, I apparently have the chance to help design a music video with OK GO about artisnal bioengineering. I need ideas.
18:02 < bbrittain> current ideas involve a tecan robot being pulled by a tractor with a mumford and sons style
18:03 < kanzure> rap about biology
18:03 < bbrittain> I don't think OK GO really raps...
18:03 < bbrittain> they mostly make pop with cool music videos
18:04 < nmz787>  it needs to involve parachuting into the amazon and then starting a lab out of the forest
18:04 < fenn> rap about biology in french
18:04 < ebowden> +tel Duces: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change
18:05 < fenn> it needs to involve basically the entire plot from "Chaff" by Greg Egan
18:05 < fenn> and barbie gets eaten by giant lizards
18:06 < fenn> giant artisanal lizards*
18:06 < bbrittain> I guess I should read Chaff then
18:07 < fenn> i think it's in http://fennetic.net/irc/Greg_Egan_-_Luminous.pdf
18:08 < kanzure> bbrittain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID6KY1QBR5s
18:08 < kanzure> .title
18:08 < yoleaux> Bio Rad GTCA Song - YouTube
18:08 < nmz787> that's actually very very good
18:08 < nmz787> i've spent plenty of time watching in in the past
18:09 < fenn> oops that's just the story "luminous" not the story collection
18:11 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHhswxo6xow
18:11 < yoleaux> iGEM Style (Gangnam Style Parody) - YouTube
18:11 < nmz787> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl4L4M8m4d0
18:11 < yoleaux> Zheng Lab - Bad Project (Lady Gaga parody) - YouTube
18:12 < bbrittain> wow. biologists are nerds
18:13 < nmz787> ok, who in here will become the old man at the beginning of the GTCA vid?
18:13 < bbrittain> kanzure
18:13 < nmz787> we need facial difference comparison for this
18:14 < kanzure> nah, i am going to be more like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYAYnCAQRMY
18:14 < nmz787> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vgJdySaNPXY
18:14 < fenn> .title
18:14 < yoleaux> It's called epMotion - music video - YouTube
18:14 < yoleaux> It's called epMotion - music video - YouTube
18:15 < nmz787> ^pipetting robots
18:15 < bbrittain> lol
18:15 < nmz787> oo and SF Gate bridge
18:15 < nmz787> nice context
18:16 < nmz787> it's actually not featurin many robots
18:16 < nmz787> ugh, only one robot at the beginning (barely noticeable) and end
18:18 < nmz787> oh man, PCR, Kary Mullis, a Bob Dylan impersonator https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x5yPkxCLads
18:18 < nmz787> .title
18:18 < yoleaux> The PCR Song - YouTube
18:18 < nmz787> 'PCR, when you need to find out who's your daddy'
18:19 < kanzure> your goal should be to top bio-rad's video
18:19 < nmz787> yes
18:20 < nmz787> agreed
18:20 < bbrittain> I mean, I feel I'm cheating 'cause I have OK Go to call on
18:20 < kanzure> oh is that the video they were watching at the beginning of bio-rad's
18:20 < kanzure> i get it now
18:20 < kanzure> i was always confused about that
18:20 < nmz787> oh
18:20 < nmz787> really?
18:20 < bbrittain> and like... professional film people
18:20 < kanzure> go look
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18:24 < bbrittain> sam altman: "long-term prediction: total market cap of all YC companies crosses $1 trillion in 2014 dollars by 2035"
18:24 < bbrittain> uhhh
18:24 < bbrittain> I doubt it
18:24 < nmz787> alright, face_to_compare_to_url=http://imgur.com/Y7fFLFa
18:24 < bbrittain> I doubt YC is gonna be around that long
18:24 < nmz787> bbrittain: what is a good OK GO song?
18:24 < nmz787> the video I just watched wasn't too good IMO sound wise
18:26 < bbrittain> nmz787: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qybUFnY7Y8w
18:26 < bbrittain> I never said they were _good_
18:26 < bbrittain> just that people listen to them & they make good single-shot music videos
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18:27 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmzMmkAekWo
18:27 < yoleaux> Massague Lab - Don't Stop Pipetting (Don't Stop Believing Parody) - YouTube
18:34 < kanzure> "can't read your protocol it's written in thai"
18:34 < kanzure> that happened to me
18:35 < nmz787> at the end of the month i was in thailand i was able to read numbers at least
18:37 < bbrittain> nmz787: why were you in thailand?
18:38 < kanzure> had to be somewhere
18:38 < bbrittain> for now...
18:38 < bbrittain> I kinda want to get a sailboat and sail for a couple of years
18:39 < bbrittain> my current crazy plan
18:39 < bbrittain> can't really do bio on a boat though :/
18:39 < bbrittain> why did I ever leave computers?
18:40 < fenn> bbrittain: found it eventually http://fennetic.net/irc/Egan,_Greg_-_Chapbook_04_-_Chaff.html
18:40 < bbrittain> fenn: dude. awesome.
18:40 < fenn> bbrittain: sounds like a good plan
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18:41 < nmz787> this is prety good too
18:41 < nmz787> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd_0OuIVdxU
18:41 < yoleaux> Daft Punk - "Get Lucky" Parody (Get Published) - YouTube
18:41 < nmz787> bbrittain: that jcvi dude was on a boat and doing bio
18:41 < nmz787> jcv he would be
18:42 < bbrittain> nmz787: right. I don't have infinite money
18:42 < nmz787> well you gotta have goals
18:42 < kanzure> yeah
18:42 < kanzure> and standards
18:43 < nmz787> bbrittain: was just being a tourist, learned to scuba dive, got suits tailored
18:43 < bbrittain> nmz787: nice. getting suits tailored in asia is always a good plan
18:43 < nmz787> hmm, that last vid was from 'yale retreat 2013' so they're academics, and their lyrics are obviously prety decent
18:44 < bbrittain> I wonder if there are academics that idle in this channel
18:55 < fenn> i see a few
18:57  * heath nods
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19:05 < fenn> so many books
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21:29 < nmz787> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgLRSkRioRA
21:29 < yoleaux> Operating a Vulcan Iron Works 0-4-0T Steam Locomotive - YouTube
21:29 < nmz787> I watched one before that on how to repair some old gear
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22:17 < superkuh> Dang. Electrolysis of aluminum wire will not work for my purposes. Barrier films of the oxide only get so thick before they start forming regular grids of pores.
22:18 < superkuh> Max thickness of about a micrometer and ~700v standoff.
22:19 < superkuh> The pore stuff was neat to read about though. Accidental nano-structure.
22:26 < fenn> the pore is sealed in the anodizing process with hot water (or some chemical solution?)
22:27 < fenn> http://aluminumsurface.blogspot.com/2009/04/why-sealing-process-is-so-important.html
22:29 < superkuh> I don't care about chemical resistance though. Only dielectric strength. I've read that as long as the solution is neutral (not acidic), current is kept low, and voltage high (>100 V), pores should not form until after ~1 micrometer. But that is not enough. So back to the alumina epoxies, I guess.
22:31 < fenn> the sealing process fills the pores with alumina; how is adding aggregated alumina flakes suspended in epoxy any better?
22:31 < superkuh> Not better, really. But if that route has to be taken why do both processes?  It's more work.
22:32 < fenn> sorry, i guess it's actually aluminum hydroxide
22:33 < fenn> because boiling in distilled water is not a lot of work? and it's more uniform and consistent
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23:20 < gene_hacker> are you trying to grow sapphire electrolytically?
23:21 < superkuh> No. Just a thick dielectric layer on aluminum wire.
23:23 < superkuh> it is quickly becoming obvious that I am ignorant of most things regarding the process. But it is fun to learn. Lots of neat little diversions like the pore formation stuff.
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 21 00:00:57 2014