--- Log opened Fri Nov 21 00:00:57 2014 00:25 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:25 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:28 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:15 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:28 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hbetmxohdaifxccn] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:51 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:53 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@S0106b81619e8ecee.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-80-232-96.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-81-213-162.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:06 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:07 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:57 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:21 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-109-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:23 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-109-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 04:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:37 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hbetmxohdaifxccn] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 04:39 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:43 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:44 -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:58 < chris_99> Has anyone seen any DIY flow cytometry type devices out of interest? 05:03 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:04 < chris_99> without using any fancy florescent proteins 05:06 < chris_99> i'm wondering if you could slow the flow of the liquid, possibly through some kind of microfluidic slide, and do it optically through a high frame rate camera? 05:08 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:09 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:17 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vphbxwbezadqurkd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:20 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:32 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-109-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:33 < eudoxia> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=2351489&ftid=1277049&dwn=1&CFID=601643638&CFTOKEN=40195041 05:34 < eudoxia> oh right paperbot doesn't work or something 05:35 < bbrittain> paperbot: YOU BROKE? 05:35 < bbrittain> kanzure: ^ 05:41 < kanzure> paperbot is totally broken 05:42 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot 05:42 < kanzure> youfix? 05:49 < kanzure> hmm got an email from someone's email address hosted at chmail.ir 05:49 < kanzure> about pdfparanoia 05:53 < kanzure> i am gonna try sending back: 05:53 < kanzure> من می خواهم برای کمک به. من خوب فارسی صحبت کنم. می تواند شما را کپی و ارسال هر گونه پیغام خطا؟ لطفا به من 05:54 < kanzure> and 05:54 < kanzure> بگویید مراحل شما با استفاده از. 05:55 < kanzure> oh and "قیمت من پلوتونیوم است." 05:57 < eudoxia> the gnusha bot doesn't like unicode 05:57 < kanzure> ugh 05:58 < kanzure> i have 99 bots and they're all problems 05:59 < archels> .tr من می خواهم برای کمک به. من خوب فارسی صحبت کنم. می تواند شما را کپی و ارسال هر گونه پیغام خطا؟ لطفا به من 05:59 < yoleaux> archels: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed. 05:59 < archels> make that 100 06:01 < archels> plutonium, haha 06:08 < kanzure> i wonder if this causes time travel: 06:08 < kanzure> http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/21/tapeworm-parasite-mans-brain-four-years-china 06:09 < kanzure> .wik spirometra erinaceieuropaei 06:09 < yoleaux> "Spirometra erinaceieuropaei is a tapeworm that infects domestic animals and humans. In humans infection is called sparganosis. The worm has an interesting lifecycle. The adult worm is present in the small intestine of cats and dogs where it may grow as long as 1.5 metres." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirometra_erinaceieuropaei 06:09 < kanzure> yes i'll take one 1.5 meter tapeworm in my brain, please 06:10 < eudoxia> ew 06:10 < kanzure> "Rather than living on the brain tissue of its unknowing victim, the parasite is thought to have simply absorbed nutrients from the man’s brain" 06:10 < eudoxia> this is like that thing where botflies grow in your brain 06:10 < kanzure> paperbot: http://genomebiology.com/2014/15/11/510/abstract 06:10 < kanzure> .title 06:10 < yoleaux> Genome Biology | Abstract | The genome of the sparganosis tapeworm Spirometra erinaceieuropaei isolated from the biopsy of a migrating brain lesion 06:12 < kanzure> "The patient first noticed something was wrong in 2008 when he began suffering headaches, math, memory flashbacks and strange smells." 06:13 < archels> suffering math? 06:13 < kanzure> hehehe "use of frog poultice, a traditional Chinese remedy where raw frog meat is used to calm sore eyes." 06:14 < superkuh> http://www.superkuh.com/pictures/plif/wc083.gif (re: worms in brain, math) 06:15 < kanzure> yeah i imagine that's accurate 06:15 -!- comma8 [comma8@gateway/shell/yourbnc/x-vsuutkxukgollmot] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:23 -!- comma8 [comma8@gateway/shell/yourbnc/x-iinbqhehvqhhggxb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:23 < bbrittain> kanzure: what is wrong with paperbot? I don't see any new issues 06:24 < eudoxia> probably it's not the code that's broken, just the world around it 06:25 < bbrittain> stupid world, changing on us 06:25 < chris_99> haha 06:33 -!- MutMan [~muthuri@197.237.156.120] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:34 < MutMan> paper 06:34 < MutMan> paperbot, http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=6945905 06:34 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1109%2FTPAMI.2014.2366761 06:35 < kanzure> it's definitely paperbot itself that is broken 06:44 -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@5351F2A8.cm-6-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:50 -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:04 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:06 < kanzure> jrayhawk: why does git have its own transport protocol? 07:06 < kanzure> or rather, 07:07 < kanzure> pasky: why does git have its own transport protocol? 07:12 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:16 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:39 < pasky_> rather than...? 07:39 < pasky_> the protocol is very simple 07:40 < pasky_> basically it exchanges refs to negotiate the list of objects to send, then packs them up the same as the on-disk pack format is and sends them 07:54 < archels> hmm, not sure if this means that Singularity University is active in The Netherlands or whether they just held an event here http://www.singularityuniversity.nl 07:55 < archels> meetup of "Amsterdam Futurists Society" next Wednesday http://www.meetup.com/Amsterdam-Futurists-Society/ 07:56 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 07:58 < kanzure> or domain squatting 08:00 < archels> lolwat http://www.brainiacdating.com/ 08:00 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:08 -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:09 -!- MutMan [~muthuri@197.237.156.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:10 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11 < kanzure> they will soon be hearing from http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/Brainiac(STAS).jpg 08:37 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:06 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-109-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:07 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:26 -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:41 -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@5351F2A8.cm-6-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:41 * heath waves good evening 09:42 < kanzure> "yuri: i am expert in shadowy field of many things" 09:49 < chris_99> is it possible to pump fluid through a Hemocytometer somehow, or is that a dumb idea for some reason? 09:51 < nmz787_i> if the top is sealed, sure it would work 09:52 < nmz787_i> doesn't seem like a dumb idea to me if you're interested in counting cell concentrations or flow dynamics 09:52 < nmz787_i> (i did some opencv to track cells passing through a microfluidic years ago) 09:53 < nmz787_i> it was basically a hemocytometer without the grid etched on the bottom 09:53 < chris_99> nice, yeah i'd like to count yeast cells during fermentation 09:53 < chris_99> continuously 09:54 < chris_99> i assume you can't optically tell live from dead cells right? without dyeing 09:55 < nmz787_i> you likely can, but idk how simple it is 09:55 < nmz787_i> when i did those kind of counts we used dye 09:56 < chris_99> gotcha 09:56 < nmz787_i> yeah trypan blue was one of them 09:56 < chris_99> theres another one that's less toxic too 09:56 < nmz787_i> if the tank is well mixed, you could just steal a small amount, add dye, check, then discard 09:56 < chris_99> mmm true 09:56 < chris_99> that could be done automatically too 10:03 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 10:04 < heath> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304397594902321 10:04 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Asynchronous%20automata%20versus%20asynchronous%20cellular%20automata%0A%20.pdf 10:05 <@ParahSailin_> optical density 10:05 <@ParahSailin_> why do you need to microscopically inspect yeast cells for growth curve 10:05 <@ParahSailin_> yeast cells gunk up flow cytometers anyway 10:06 <@ParahSailin_> great way to ruin expensive machine 10:06 < chris_99> ParahSailin_, what other ways are there to count them? 10:08 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:08 <@ParahSailin_> OD600 10:09 < chris_99> hmm interesting, would that work even with things where the main colour could be black 10:14 < nmz787_i> you might be able to do impedance spectroscopy 10:17 < chris_99> looking at the wiki for that now, thanks 10:18 < nmz787_i> chris_99: you could also look up coulter counter 10:19 < chris_99> that sounds rather neat 10:19 < nmz787_i> "Alternating current measurements are sometimes used in clinical hematology instruments, due to the special nature of cell membranes. At low frequencies (below 500 kHz), alternating and direct current measurements behave essentially the same way. At intermediate frequencies (500 kHz - 6 MHz), the plasma membrane of cells can become polarized, leading to a decreased capacitance of the measurement systems. However, at high 10:19 < nmz787_i> frequencies (6-20 MHz), the cell membrane loses its polarization, and the electrical pulses provide information about the cell cytoplasm" 10:22 < nmz787_i> hmm, this only goes up to 100kHz but it is a complete solution for signal generation and sensing http://www.analog.com/en/digital-to-analog-converters/direct-digital-synthesis-dds/ad5933/products/product.html 10:23 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 10:23 < chris_99> cool 10:25 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:27 < chris_99> i love the look of these 10:27 < chris_99> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coulter-Counter-Model-ZM-Control-Particle-Count-With-Dust-Cover-/380391701942?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58911cbdb6 10:27 < chris_99> they look very retro 10:28 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:30 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:32 < nmz787_i> oh, they have a whole section with seemingly similar (checking) parts http://www.analog.com/en/digital-to-analog-converters/direct-digital-synthesis-dds/products/index.html#Direct_Digital_Synthesis 10:33 < chris_99> hmm i think they're just DDS chips 10:33 < chris_99> so they might not sample an input 10:35 < nmz787_i> yeah that's what I'm seeing, they don't have the ADC like the former does 10:35 < chris_99> mmm 10:39 < nmz787_i> hmm https://github.com/arachnidlabs/ad983x 10:39 < nmz787_i> .title 10:39 < yoleaux> arachnidlabs/ad983x · GitHub 10:39 < nmz787_i> 'Arduino library for interfacing with AD9833, AD9834 and AD9838' 10:40 < nmz787_i> so maybe it wouldn't be too hard to throw a decent ADC next to one of those (or use the arduino's if it would be sufficient, idk) 10:40 < chris_99> you mean to do the coulter technique? 10:40 < nmz787_i> huh, authored 3 days ago 10:40 < nmz787_i> yeah 10:40 < chris_99> yeah it sounds v. interesting 10:44 < nmz787_i> hmm https://www.tindie.com/products/arachnidlabs/circuit-patterns-trading-cards-full-deck/ 10:48 < kanzure> http://blog.coinalytics.co/visualizing-silk-road-20-relationships 10:49 < nmz787_i> "On November 6, 2013 the "... is that date correct? 10:49 < nmz787_i> only a month after v1 got shutdown? 10:50 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:50 < kanzure> they mean 2014 10:52 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:23 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:29 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-esjyfkctowipchgy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:35 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:38 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:38 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:50 < nmz787_i> dang 8GHz amp for ~$3 on ebay http://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ERA-1SM+.pdf 11:51 < nmz787_i> found via http://www.qsl.net/n/n5ib//DDS/ 11:55 < jrayhawk> kanzure: re: git://: because git is a tree of objects and not deltas, it's useful to be able to run dynamic compression on whatever objects are being sent so as to avoid sending duplicate information 11:57 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:58 < jrayhawk> also there's no particular reason not to 11:59 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:00 < jrayhawk> The default advice of "use http for everything" is an artifact of raising a generation of programmers on cripply fractally-bad web technologies 12:02 < jrayhawk> like programmers raised on the web have never thought about how a synchronous textual s 12:03 < jrayhawk> unmultiplexed non-streaming and non-dynamically-negotiable object retrieval system could possibly be suboptimal 12:07 -!- nickjohnson [sid789@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lrazrwoaopzrrwqi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:08 < nickjohnson> Hello. I felt my ears burning from this direction. 12:08 < jrayhawk> it's just the soup they swim in 12:10 < nickjohnson> (I'm the entirety of Arachnid Labs) 12:12 < nmz787_i> yo 12:12 < nmz787_i> i just found your recent dds repo on github 12:12 < nickjohnson> *nods* 12:12 < nmz787_i> have half an email written to you, which basically said as much 12:12 < nmz787_i> was wondering about the Loki project as I don't see it on tindie 12:12 < nickjohnson> I wrote it because I'm currently designing a project based on that and an AVR 12:13 < nmz787_i> but also found this http://midnightdesignsolutions.com/dds60/index.html#Overview 12:13 < nickjohnson> The Loki got shelved after Cypress released their PSoC pioneer board for less than its BoM cost in materials 12:13 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:13 < nmz787_i> and was thinking since it doesn't have an ADC, I might use an LPC-Link v2 12:13 < nickjohnson> (Also after I realised just how complicated launching a new microcontroller ecosystem is) 12:13 < nmz787_i> (which has a triple core ARM and 80 MSPS ADC) 12:14 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:14 < nmz787_i> basically was looking for something a little higher freq than this, which is a nice complete-package solution http://www.analog.com/en/digital-to-analog-converters/direct-digital-synthesis-dds/ad5933/products/product.html 12:14 < nmz787_i> for generation and sensing 12:15 < nmz787_i> but it looks like they have no integrated one-chip solutions that are faster 12:15 < nickjohnson> Yeah, that's a seriously cool chip 12:16 < nickjohnson> The board I'm working on should be able to do everything it can, however 12:16 < nickjohnson> By doing peak amplitude and phase sensing instead 12:16 < nmz787_i> I am a bit confused as to what this means "This self-contained functional module generates a good-quality RF signal from 1-60 MHz" re the DDS60 project 12:16 < nickjohnson> But my board only has a 16MHz oscillator, not 80 12:16 < nmz787_i> like, is that 1MHz or 1Hz 12:16 < nmz787_i> the oscillator is not 80, 80 is the ADC sample rate 12:17 < nmz787_i> http://www.embeddedartists.com/products/lpcxpresso/lpclink2.php 12:17 < nickjohnson> Well, the 9851 goes up to 150MHz 12:17 < nmz787_i> http://www.nxp.com/products/microcontrollers/cortex_m4/lpc4300/LPC4370FET100.html 12:18 < nickjohnson> Right. But 16msps is the upper limit on my board because of the 16mhz clock 12:18 < nmz787_i> but honestly I am not sure what is required 12:18 < nmz787_i> ah 12:18 < nmz787_i> I see 12:18 < nickjohnson> Required for what exactly? 12:18 < nmz787_i> "Alternating current measurements are sometimes used in clinical hematology instruments, due to the special nature of cell membranes. At low frequencies (below 500 kHz), alternating and direct current measurements behave essentially the same way. At intermediate frequencies (500 kHz - 6 MHz), the plasma membrane of cells can become polarized, leading to a decreased capacitance of the measurement systems. However, at high 12:18 < nmz787_i> frequencies (6-20 MHz), the cell membrane loses its polarization, and the electrical pulses provide information about the cell cytoplasm" 12:18 < nmz787_i> .wik coulter counter 12:18 < yoleaux> "A Coulter counter is an apparatus for counting and sizing particles suspended in electrolytes. It is used for cells, bacteria, prokaryotic cells and virus particles." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulter_counter 12:19 < nickjohnson> That's what you want to do? 12:19 < nmz787_i> and in general impedance spectroscopy (I personally am interested in nucleic acid detection and quantification) 12:19 < nmz787_i> another person here is brewing beer 12:20 < nmz787_i> they were looking for some solution to do cell counts 12:20 < nickjohnson> ah 12:20 < nmz787_i> and I happen to also need to do similar for my own lab-on-a-chip stuff 12:21 < nmz787_i> aren't AVR adcs limited to 80ksps with decent bitwidth? 12:21 < nmz787_i> I thought 250ksps was the limit but it lost a few bits of range 12:21 < nickjohnson> So, the AD9834 takes up to 75MHz clock, and therefore does the frequency range you care about 12:21 < nickjohnson> While still being fairly affordable and straightforward 12:22 < nickjohnson> One thing I don't like about the DDS-60 you linked to is that they use AC coupling 12:22 < nickjohnson> So it's not good for frequencies down to DC 12:22 < nickjohnson> Though you probably don't care about that :) 12:23 < nickjohnson> And yes, the AVR ADCs are slow. I'm working around that by building peak detector and phase discriminator circuits into the board 12:23 < nickjohnson> So you can detect amplitude and phase without sampling the whole waveform 12:24 < nmz787_i> ah 12:25 < nmz787_i> hmm, yeah the different articles that mention the dds60 change between saying 1-60Mhz or 0-60MHz 12:27 < nickjohnson> You can avoid needing a DC cap with a differential amp approach 12:27 < nickjohnson> one sec 12:27 < nickjohnson> What exactly do you need to measure about the return waveform? Is phase and amplitude enough? 12:28 < nickjohnson> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_iKMAYU3t1LdDlaVkdRYWdwQW8/view?usp=sharing 12:28 < nickjohnson> The structure on page 1 with 3 opamps is a combined differential -> single ended amp to avoid AC coupling, and a filter 12:29 < nmz787_i> umm 12:29 < nickjohnson> It's less horrendous than it looks ;) 12:29 < nmz787_i> i think the freq response curve 12:29 < nickjohnson> Right 12:29 < nickjohnson> But that's just amplitude and possibly phase at each step of a frequency sweep 12:30 < nickjohnson> RE DDSes, the other option is to pick one that has a built in PLL, so you don't need to feed it a high frequency clock 12:30 < nmz787_i> then you would apply matching algorithms to different curves you obtained, or some other alogorithm to know how much one curve changed from another... and deduce some info (# of particles, length of polymer maybe) 12:30 < nickjohnson> *nods* 12:30 < nickjohnson> Sounds like you should be able to do it with peak and maybe phase measurements, then 12:30 < nickjohnson> You can still use a high speed ADC if you want :) 12:31 < nmz787_i> $20 for that dev board isn't too bad 12:31 < nmz787_i> though it has a 0 to 0.8V input 12:31 < nmz787_i> so shifters would be needed 12:31 < nickjohnson> Which one are you talking about? 12:31 < nickjohnson> The DDS-60 daughterboard? 12:32 <@ParahSailin_> ups uses golf carts with trailers now? 12:32 < nmz787_i> no the ADC input of the LPC-linkv2 12:32 < nmz787_i> (which uses an NXP LPC4370 processor chip) 12:33 < nickjohnson> Oh, I see 12:33 < nickjohnson> Well, there are lots of ways to get a fast ADC 12:33 < nmz787_i> compared to making phase/peak detectors 12:33 < nmz787_i> which I haven't thought about 12:33 < nmz787_i> I would assume using the input-capture interrups on the AVR somehow? 12:33 < nickjohnson> A peak detector is just a diode followed by a capacitor 12:34 < nickjohnson> You pull it low, then let it charge up to the peak value of the input signal 12:35 < nmz787_i> oh, but that doesn't give you time 12:35 < nmz787_i> i guess that would be your phase detector that gives you that 12:39 < nickjohnson> yup 12:39 < nickjohnson> For that, you have to threshold the signals, then XOR them 12:39 < nmz787_i> so would your project be able to produce a graph easily? 12:39 < nickjohnson> Which gives you a square wave with duty cycle proportional to the phase difference 12:39 < nmz787_i> of the freq response? 12:39 < nickjohnson> Yup, it can produce a bode plot 12:40 < nickjohnson> Only up to about 2MHz, though 12:40 < nickjohnson> You'd need a faster DDS to get higher than that 12:40 < nmz787_i> is there any kind of FFT bode plot production out there, where you only need one/few measurements, rather than needing to sweep and take a measurement at each step? 12:40 < nmz787_i> to reduce the complete-plot acquisition time 12:41 < nickjohnson> Not really - in theory it could be any curve at all. You can reduce the number of steps you make and interpolate, is all 12:41 < nmz787_i> (i am pretty much making that idea up) 12:42 < nickjohnson> And that's what the combined chip you linked to does, too 12:43 < nmz787_i> any idea how long a bode plot takes to acquire? would the non-combined chip (like you're using) need closer to microseconds or milliseconds to hop from one freq to the next? 12:43 < nmz787_i> (obv it depends on hop/step increment size) 12:45 < kragen> glad to see this interaction is turning out productive :) 12:48 < nickjohnson> Depends on how wide a sweep you want and how many steps per octave 12:49 < nickjohnson> The DDS chip can change frequencies instantly 12:50 < nickjohnson> The peak and phase detectors depend on what values were chosen for the rectifying cap and resistor. If it responds slowly (milliseconds), it will give a stable value for slow signals. If it responds quickly (microseconds), you can take more samples per second 12:50 -!- cpopell [~cpopell@c-76-26-144-132.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:51 < nickjohnson> For instance, in mine I'm using a 10k resistor and 0.01u cap, which has a ~1600hz cutoff, so it'd give stable values for sweeps above about 10KHz (conservatively), and settle in a few milliseconds. 12:53 < nickjohnson> Here's a simulation of it settling on a 100khz input signal, for instance: http://imgur.com/z6mABLx 12:53 < nickjohnson> Looks like it takes about 3ms to settle to within 99% of its true value 12:54 < nickjohnson> My reasoning for picking that value was that for lower than about 10khz, you can probably just sample the waveform directly :) 12:57 < kragen> I was just watching a ten-million-frame-per-second video of a water drop getting diverted by a laser pulse vaporizing one side of it 12:57 < kragen> taken with a 20 000 frame per second camera 12:58 < kragen> this is very similar to the peak-and-phase-detection approach you're talking about 12:59 < kragen> I mean in a sense it's more similar to heterodyning downconversion with a mixer 13:00 < nickjohnson> kragen: Been reading XKCD's What-if? 13:00 < nickjohnson> Incidentally, I have a friend who's about to launch a Kickstarter for a high speed LED based flash that I worked on. 1 million lumens for 500 nanoseconds :) 13:01 < nickjohnson> And yeah, I believe downconversion is another possible approach. But I don't understand the frequency domain well enough to say :) 13:01 < kragen> yup 13:01 < kragen> oh, you just multiply (somehow) by a sinewave that's close to the frequency of the phenomenon you'r etrying to measure 13:02 < kragen> and the product contains sum and difference components 13:02 < nickjohnson> Here's one of AD's fancier DDSes. 500MHz, with built in PLL so you can feed it a slower clock, and dual outputs: http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD9958.pdf 13:02 < kragen> the difference components are close to 0Hz, which makes it easy to measure their amplitude and phase 13:03 < kragen> I think you can do a lot better than 500 nanoseconds with a fairly normal LED if you're willing to accept a much smaller number of lumens 13:03 < nickjohnson> kragen: Right. I can say the words, but I don't fundamentally grok how it works. :) 13:03 < nickjohnson> Yes, the limitation on this was the rise times given parasitic capacitance and inductance, and not wanting to burn out the LED bond wires with the surge 13:03 < nickjohnson> 500ns is short enough to stop a bullet :) 13:03 < kragen> :) 13:04 < nickjohnson> And an order of magnitude faster than a xenon flash 13:04 < kragen> actually you can stop a bullet pretty well with a xenon flash too 13:04 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:04 < kragen> I mean Edgerton was famous for that 13:04 < nickjohnson> Only if you do it from a long way away or don't mind a lot of blur 13:04 < kragen> yeah, true 13:04 < nickjohnson> Xenon flashes have a long decay time, so you get a lot of blur in the photo 13:04 < kragen> as for heterodyning: well, you can rotate and scale by a vector by multiplying by [[a b] [-b a]], right? 13:04 < nickjohnson> The LED flash has a nice square waveform 13:05 < nickjohnson> It was fun working with it - 180A, 2.8KW, for half a microsecond. 13:05 < nickjohnson> 20 times their rated working current :P 13:05 < kragen> like say [[cos θ, sin θ], [-sin θ, cos θ]] 13:05 < nickjohnson> kragen: With you so far, sure. Though somewhat rusty. 13:06 < heath> so much broken software on the internets 13:06 < nickjohnson> nmz787_i: So, the question is, what frequency range do you most care about? 13:06 < kragen> you can sort of draw it out on paper and see how if you sort of move the axes to [cos θ, sin θ] and [-sin θ, cos θ], along with the point you're trying to rotate, that it's correct 13:06 < kragen> anyway if you do that twice you end for two different angles you can get the rotation by the sum of the angles 13:07 < kragen> which gives you the cos and sin of the sum 13:07 < kragen> which you probably learned when you were like 13 involves sums and differences of the angles 13:07 < nickjohnson> I think I need Vi Hart to explain this to me ;) 13:07 < kragen> yeah 13:07 < kragen> I wish I were Vi Hart 13:08 < kragen> also that IRC had graph paper and markers 13:08 < nickjohnson> *nods* 13:08 < kragen> anyway it falls out of the math pretty easily 13:08 < kragen> you can also go back in the other direction 13:08 < nickjohnson> Yeah. The trouble is, I can follow the math (I don't) but still not fundamentally 'get' it 13:08 < kragen> two nearby frequencies produce "beating" 13:09 < kragen> summing sinewaves at two nearby frequencies I mean 13:09 < nickjohnson> Like, you can modulate some amount of data with a signal around 1MHz. How can you mix it down to near-DC and still retain the modulated information? 13:09 < kragen> which is to say, a third frequency (in between the two) amplitude-modulated (which is to say multiplied) by a sinusoidal modulation of the difference of the two 13:09 < nickjohnson> Yup 13:09 < nickjohnson> hmm 13:09 < nickjohnson> Okay, light begins to dawn, perhaps 13:10 < kragen> that is, if you start with the sum and difference signals, and you add them together, you get something that is evidently a product of two sinewaves of the different frequencies 13:10 < nickjohnson> Isn't that effectively downmixing, then? You're producing a low frequency with the sum of two high frequencies? 13:10 < kragen> no, other way around 13:10 < kragen> you're producing two high frequencies by multiplying a low frequency by a high frequency 13:11 < nickjohnson> Sorry, I mean in the case of two nearby frequencies producing a beat 13:11 < kragen> yeah 13:11 < kragen> the low frequency isn't actually in the resulting "beating" signal 13:11 < kragen> unless you rectify it or something 13:11 < nickjohnson> Yeah, it's amplitude modulation of the higher frequency signal 13:12 < kragen> I mean it isn't an additive component of the Fourier analysis of the signal 13:12 < nickjohnson> Self-evidently true because you put in two sine waves, so all you can have is two sine waves 13:12 < nickjohnson> right 13:12 < nickjohnson> So how do you get from there to downmixing? 13:13 < kragen> you multiply frequencies that are close together instead of far apart :) 13:13 < nmz787_i> i thought when you multiply, you get the additive and the subtractive 13:13 < nickjohnson> In the example with beats, you're summing, not multiplying, though 13:13 < nmz787_i> then if you were down or up converting, you select the one you want 13:13 < kragen> it's the other direction 13:13 < nmz787_i> with just a filter 13:14 < nickjohnson> ...wasn't there some sort of tool that let you experiment with chaining signals and filters etc? At a higher level than ltspice? 13:14 < kragen> brb 13:14 < nickjohnson> kragen: I don't know what the rest of that sentence fragment is 13:15 < superkuh> GNU Radio? 13:15 < nickjohnson> That might be it, yeah 13:15 < nmz787_i> superkuh: I think he means to model them 13:15 < superkuh> Specifically GNU Radio Companion. 13:15 < superkuh> Oh. 13:16 < nickjohnson> No, I just meant to experiment with them 13:16 < nickjohnson> I figure maybe being able to actually see waveforms will help me grok this better 13:16 < superkuh> Definitely GNU Radio Companion then. 13:16 < nickjohnson> Just like KSP helped me grok orbital mechanics :P 13:16 < superkuh> Get a $10 rtlsdr dongle and install GR; best way to learn DSP. 13:16 < kragen> sorry, some dude I met at PyConAr was phoning me up to invite me to come stay at his house on the othe side of the country 13:16 < nickjohnson> I need to do that anyway so I can do pre-compliance CE checks on my hardware 13:16 < kragen> which was awesome but really reduced my bandwidth for DSP chat 13:17 < nickjohnson> heh 13:17 < kragen> so what I was saying is that if you start with a sum and difference signal that are similar in frequency, and you add them together, you get a signal that is very evidently a sine wave carrier being AM-modulated by a much lower frequency, which is to say multiplied by it 13:18 < kragen> which perhaps makes it somewhat more intuitive that if you start by multiplying together two sine waves and then Fourier-analyze the result, the Fourier spectrum will contain sum and difference frequencies 13:18 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:18 < nickjohnson> Can we back up for a minute and go over exactly what multiplying two sine waves entails? It's not simply pointwise multiplication, is it? 13:18 < kragen> it's maybe not obvious how the phase of the sum and difference frequencies relates to the phase of the signal being multiplied 13:19 < kragen> yes, it is 13:19 < nickjohnson> okay then 13:19 < kragen> in practice, in analog hardware, it's hard to do actual multiplication 13:19 < fenn> huh i always thought a "phase discriminator" was just some star trek technobabble 13:19 < nickjohnson> Yeah, that requires variable gain 13:19 < nickjohnson> Which is a real PITA 13:19 < kragen> so you settle for feeding them through some component that is significantly nonlinear 13:19 < kragen> such as a diode 13:19 < nickjohnson> fenn: It'd be more commonly called a "phase detector", but "discriminator" is legit too :) 13:20 < nickjohnson> Hah, right, take the logs and sum them 13:20 < kragen> yeah, you can build a fairly precise analog multiplier out of diodes 13:20 < kragen> but you don't need to 13:21 < kragen> you just need something that has significant nonlinearity, but not *so much* nonlinearity that the higher-order terms swamp the second-order terms 13:21 < kragen> I mean the first-order (linear) terms are just x and y 13:21 < nickjohnson> AM modulation == multiplication does help clear things up. It's a lot easier to visualise a LF signal multiplied with an HF one than two similar frequencies, intuitively 13:21 < kragen> the second-order terms are x², xy, and y² 13:21 < kragen> if both x and y are high in frequency, which is to say periodic on a very short timescale, their squares will also be periodic on a very short timescale 13:22 < kragen> and so won't contribute significantly to the LF or IF signal that you're trying to measure 13:22 < kragen> I haven't actually built any kind of heterodyne, so maybe I shouldn't be trying to explain this 13:23 < nickjohnson> You're doing pretty well so far 13:23 < kragen> but it seems fairly intuitive to me. I hope I'm not making any major mistakes. 13:23 < kragen> anyway so you use roughly any kind of device with two input terminals and an output that is a significantly nonlinear, but not too nonlinear, combination of the inputs 13:24 < nmz787_i> i first learned about them in a humanities/english/liberal-arts class, which was on 'the history of radio' 13:24 < kragen> and then you filter out the high-frequency components from it, and you're left with the signal with the difference of the frequencies 13:25 < nickjohnson> One thing that is currently surprising me is that you can use an LPF and get a low frequency component out that didn't exist in the fourier transform of the input signal 13:25 < nickjohnson> As in the case of an AM modulated signal 13:25 < kragen> well, you can't 13:26 < kragen> if you low-pass filter the signal from an AM antenna, you won't hear anything 13:26 < kragen> you have to rectify it first 13:27 < nickjohnson> Didn't we establish something like that? The sum of, say 10KHz and 9KHz gives a 1KHz beat frequency; couldn't you use an LPF and actually get that frequency out? 13:27 < kragen> nope! 13:27 < nickjohnson> ...and in this case by rectify you mean? 13:27 < kragen> traditionally you put the signal through a rusty razor blade or galena crystal or something 13:27 < nickjohnson> I mean, I've seen certain cases of an LPF used as a definition of "rectify" 13:27 < kragen> but those have mostly been supplanted with silicon diodes :) 13:28 < nickjohnson> Which is just multiplying the signal with the tuning frequency again 13:28 < nmz787_i> bbl 13:28 < nmz787_i> thanks for stopping by nickjohnson 13:28 < nickjohnson> nmz787_i: my pleasure 13:28 < kragen> is it really? 13:28 < nmz787_i> will be back in prob 20 or 30 mins 13:28 < nickjohnson> I thought it was 13:28 < kragen> I don't think it is 13:28 < nickjohnson> Happy to recommend a DDS architecture later if you want one 13:28 < kragen> it's more like multiplying the signal by its own signum 13:28 < nickjohnson> kragen: Okay, so what operation is rectifying? 13:28 < kragen> taking the absolute value 13:28 < nickjohnson> Literally abs(signal)? 13:28 < kragen> yes 13:29 < kragen> like what a bridge rectifier does 13:29 < kragen> I mean you can use a single diode too obviously 13:29 < nickjohnson> It seems unintuitive that the absolute value of a signal would have different frequency components to the input signal 13:29 < nickjohnson> To me, at least 13:29 < kragen> it is! but it's also true! 13:29 < kragen> absolute value is a very highly nonlinear operation 13:30 < kragen> if you want to visualize the waveforms resulting from multiplying two similar-frequency signals intuitively, then think about multiplying a sinewave by itself 13:30 < kragen> it's always positive 13:30 < kragen> in fact it's another sinewave of twice the frequency with a DC offset 13:30 < nickjohnson> Right 13:30 < nickjohnson> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sin%5E2+x 13:30 < kragen> and if you multiply it by its negative, you get the negative result 13:30 < kragen> right 13:30 < nickjohnson> (Wolfram might almost be as good a tool as marker and graph paper for this conversation) 13:31 < kragen> so if you have two sinewave signals that are shifting in and out of phase, you shift gradually back and forth between that positive DC offset and that negative DC offset 13:31 < nickjohnson> Like http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sin%28x%29+*+sin%281.1x%29 13:31 < kragen> I mean, that DC offset is basically the phase difference between them 13:31 < nickjohnson> yup 13:31 < kragen> right 13:32 < kragen> so you can kind of see that that's composed of a sum frequency and a difference frequency 13:32 < kragen> which should hopefully be intuitive now for the special cases where the frequencies are very close together and where they're very far apart 13:33 < nickjohnson> The difference frequency being the very slow change in the DC offset (sorta) 13:33 < kragen> xactly 13:33 < kragen> and hopefully you can also see now that a phase shift in one of the input signals produces a phase shift in the output signal 13:33 < nickjohnson> The sum frequency being... what frequency exactly? 13:33 < kragen> well, roughly twice the original frequency 13:33 < nickjohnson> Yes, that seems evident enough by the nature of the multiply operation 13:33 < kragen> like how sin² x has a sine wave in it that oscillates at twice the frequency of the original 13:34 < nickjohnson> Yes, okay, visually obviously twice the original: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sin%28x%29+*+sin%281.1x%29%2C+sin%28x%29 13:34 < kragen> (which should also be evident from thinking about rotating vectors) 13:34 < kragen> I remember being astonished when I first plotted sin² x with Quattro Pro on MS-DOS 13:35 < kragen> "is that really a sine wave? how?" 13:35 < nickjohnson> heh 13:35 < kragen> anyway, so if you can repeat some phenomenon frequently while you're multiplying it by a sine wave and observing the result, you can downconvert the frequent phenomenon into a much less frequent phenomenon 13:36 < nickjohnson> And yeah, evidence that abs is very nonlinear: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=abs%28sin%28x%29+*+sin%281.1x%29%29 13:36 < kragen> which is how SDR frontends work 13:37 < nickjohnson> But if it happens less frequently, what happens to the information that was encoded in the occurrences of that phenomenon? 13:38 < kragen> well, you're sort of hoping that all the repetitions are identical and so you can extract them stroboscopically 13:38 < kragen> well, sort of stroboscopically 13:38 < nickjohnson> I can see how you could decode phase shift keying, for instance. Your difference signal would phase shift at the same times, by the same phase quantities 13:39 < kragen> stroboscopic "downconversion" works by multiplying your phenomenon by a periodic impulse rather than a sine wave, in order to "alias" it to a lower frequency 13:39 < kragen> yes 13:39 < nickjohnson> And as long as your difference signal is fast enough that you get a decent chunk of sine wave between each shift, you can still decode it 13:39 < nickjohnson> Right, I remember seeing a bit on that. 13:39 < nickjohnson> Likewise frequency shift keying would manifest as a proportional difference in your output frequencies 13:39 < nickjohnson> (Proportional, or the same? The same, I guess?) 13:41 < kragen> the same 13:42 < kragen> so if your frequency shifts from 20MHz to 20.01MHz, your difference signal could shift from 1Hz to 10,001Hz 13:42 < nickjohnson> right 13:42 < kragen> A lot of times people do two-stage downconversion so they can filter out extraneous signals at an intermediate-frequency stage 13:43 < kragen> which I should understand but don't 13:43 < kragen> you can do all this in the spatial domain, too 13:43 < kragen> moiré can provide you a kind of magnification of a periodic pattenr 13:44 < nickjohnson> I was thinking about that, oddly 13:44 < nickjohnson> It comes up all the time at train stations with those perforated screens 13:44 < kragen> yup! 13:44 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:44 < nmz787_i> there's also fooplot.com 13:44 < nmz787_i> which has a github repo if you ever wanted to extend it 13:45 < kragen> you can think of that as being a result of the nonlinear opacity operation combining two spatially periodic signals 13:45 < nickjohnson> Neat 13:45 < nickjohnson> kragen: Which are the same signal but, er, spatially frequency shifted by perspective 13:45 < kragen> and one of the terms is the product of the two, so it has the difference frequency in it 13:45 < kragen> right 13:46 < kanzure> someone posted this silly stuff about google to hacker news https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00268.html 13:46 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:46 < kragen> kanzure: what a bozo 13:46 < kanzure> oh shit 13:46 < kragen> haha 13:47 < kragen> If you could get a layer of cells to be very periodic you could use this as a microscope 13:47 < kanzure> huh now it's gone from the front page 13:47 < kragen> it was probably controversial 13:47 < kragen> I have the vague impression that what nmz787_i is doing is sort of like trying to get a linear sequence of cells to be very periodic 13:49 < nmz787_i> umm, well there are holographic imagers/microscopes 13:49 < nmz787_i> but I'm not trying to get 'ducks in a row'/cells-in-a-periodic-row 13:49 < kragen> that's interesting! they're using the wave nature of light itself to provide the "multiplication by a sine wave"? 13:50 < kragen> it was apparently controversial when it got posted four years ago and got voted up to 351 points: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2933619 13:50 < nickjohnson> kragen: Reading your post, I'm sure you must have heard how reviled the "real names" policy was internally, too 13:50 < nickjohnson> It's fixed now :P 13:51 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:51 < fenn> kragen doesn't seem so silly now 13:51 < kragen> nickjohnson: naturally, yes :) 13:51 < kragen> fenn: I always seem silly! 13:51 < nickjohnson> It was always a colossally stupid idea 13:52 < fenn> nickjohnson: did you used to hang out at hackerdojo? 13:52 < nickjohnson> The fact it persisted so long is arguably an example of Google's slow reorganization from bottom-up engineering driven to top-down management driven 13:52 < kragen> I used to hang out at SuperHappyDevHouse. Does htat count? 13:52 < nickjohnson> fenn: Nope 13:54 * nickjohnson goes back to designing this IBM punched card reader 13:56 < nmz787_i> kragen: so you posted that? did you used to work there and quit or you were just making a general statement? 13:56 < kragen> No, I never worked there. A lot of my friends work there or used to work there. 13:57 < kanzure> i was just confused to see him appearing in two places at the same time 13:57 < kanzure> async is weird like that 13:57 < kragen> Instead, I moved to South America so I could watch teenagers sending each other naked pictures of themselves on Facebook and get laughed at by people who don't understand why that's important 13:58 < kragen> I left Silicon Valley in 2006 and moved into a Volkswagen bus 13:58 < kanzure> wow so hipster. ugh. 13:58 < kragen> haha 13:58 < kanzure> (i'm saying that as someone with family that has chosen to live in a volkswagen bus) 13:58 < kragen> yeah, it was just me and Beatrice at the time 13:59 < kragen> it was sure a crash course in auto mechanics 14:00 < nmz787_i> by family do you mean Beatrice, or that like, your parents also decided to move into a VW? 14:00 < nmz787_i> or do you now also have kids? 14:00 < kanzure> i was the one who said family 14:00 < kanzure> he was the one that said beatrice 14:01 < fenn> kanzure you're living in a bus now? :P 14:01 < fenn> so hipster 14:01 < nmz787_i> the party bus 14:01 < fenn> the bitcoin bus/boat 14:01 < kanzure> "with family" does not mean i am "with family" 14:02 < kanzure> it means that i have the unfortunate association of involvement in some family that happens to do the thing 14:02 < fenn> maybe you have a tapeworm 14:02 < nmz787_i> 1.5m long one 14:02 < fenn> or a family of tapeworms 14:02 < nmz787_i> in your ear 14:02 < fenn> in your eye 14:02 < nmz787_i> in your 'thinkin box' 14:02 < fenn> ok i'll stop 14:03 < kanzure> http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/5557/8524972_1.jpg?v=8CBEB089E9CD270 14:03 < fenn> i like the idea of living in a microbus, but they seem poorly engineered for the purpose 14:04 < kragen> hahah 14:04 < fenn> low insulation mainly 14:04 < kragen> fenn: they're brilliantly engineered for living in, at least in warmish places. they just suck at driving 14:04 < kragen> they're small enough that a small propane heater heats them adequately most places 14:04 < fenn> and how do you not die from CO poisoning? 14:05 < nmz787_i> I've seen some conversions to upgrade them to a newer TDI diesel engine 14:05 < fenn> kanzure that bus is in great condition 14:05 < kanzure> not theirs 14:05 < kanzure> just some random pic 14:05 < kanzure> you'd think that driving around in a vw bus since 1995 would yield at least one pic on the web but nope 14:06 < kragen> mine was a Vanagon 14:06 < fenn> there's one down the street just like that with "ich nein hasse kugelshrieber" written on it 14:07 < fenn> what's the thing on top? 14:07 < kragen> a tree 14:07 < kragen> in http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/5557/8524972_1.jpg?v=8CBEB089E9CD270? 14:07 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@S0106b81619e8ecee.gv.shawcable.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:07 < nmz787_i> 'i hate no pen' is what google translate shows 14:08 < nmz787_i> so he must be a politician 14:08 < kanzure> mandatory diversity pic https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/9200033/homepage/name/788016.jpg?type=hr 14:08 < fenn> i'm probably remembering it wrong, but it didn't make sense anyway 14:08 < nmz787_i> 'We are sorry, you can not display images hosted by Yahoo! Groups on non Yahoo! Groups pages' 14:08 < kanzure> (hint: they're the tall white ones) 14:08 < kragen> https://secure.flickr.com/photos/blmurch/tags/magic-bus has photos of ours, with my ex-mother-in-law in them, and photos of the cracked cylinder heads 14:09 < nickjohnson> Anyway, bed for me 14:09 < nickjohnson> Thanks for the conversations :) 14:09 < fenn> https://secure.flickr.com/photos/blmurch/607214287/ <- a bus 14:10 < fenn> oh this is beatrice 14:10 < kragen> it certainly is 14:10 < kragen> were you asking what the thing on top of that bus is? 14:11 < fenn> i was asking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vanagon_Santana_VW.png 14:11 < fenn> i thought they all had the thing 14:11 < fenn> i guess it's just a cargo pod 14:11 < kragen> it's a pop top 14:11 < kragen> that one is an aftermarket pop top 14:11 < kragen> with a sort of pantograph parallel linkage to raise it vertically 14:12 < fenn> is it just for ventilation? 14:13 < fenn> hm no that is a cargo pod. there are pop tops on the same page though 14:14 < kragen> no, you pop it up when you park 14:14 < kragen> it expands the volume of the bus by almost a meter vertically, which means you can stand up inside in front of the stove and sink, and provides a bunk that can comfortably accommodate two more people 14:14 < kragen> you can also put cargo in it, but only while you're parked 14:15 < kanzure> i need a recommendation for a tool to convert from irssi-style irc log format to html-with-timestamp-anchors format. 14:16 < nmz787_i> kanzure: wouldn't that uglify grepping the logs? 14:16 < fenn> how about just appending anchor tags to the txt file 14:16 < nmz787_i> kanzure: could it do the conversion on-the-fly as they're requested? 14:16 < kanzure> fenn: no 14:16 * fenn hates html logs 14:16 < kanzure> nmz787_i: no thanks 14:17 < kanzure> fenn: i would never replace plaintext logs with only-html logs 14:18 < fenn> i mean adding 12:34:56 < joebob> hay guyz 14:18 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:18 < kanzure> yes i know what you mean 14:18 < kanzure> you were already very specific, i don't know how you could expect me to not have understood that 14:19 < fenn> um, i managed to interpret it a few different ways 14:21 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:21 < nmz787_i> well fenn's example shows the anchor tags interspersed in the text, appending would be at the end of the file 14:22 < fenn> time.mktime((year, month, day, hour, min, 0, 0, 0, -1)) 14:24 < fenn> i don't think there's an off the shelf tool to do this 14:24 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:24 < kanzure> he meant appending after every write 14:25 < fenn> i don't know what i meant, but you probably have an existing body of logs you wish to convert, and also an ongoing logging process that needs to be modified 14:29 < nmz787_i> .tell nickjohnson do you know what the difference between say the DDS60 (or your project) and these ~$5 modules on ebay (search AD9850 ) 14:29 < yoleaux> nmz787_i: I'll pass your message to nickjohnson. 14:37 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:39 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:01 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:01 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:06 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:08 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:15 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:26 < chris_99> anyone seen these before http://ibidi.com/xtproducts/en/ibidi-Labware/Customer-Specific-Slides/Custom-Specific-Flow-Slides-and-Channels 15:26 < chris_99> i was wondering if you could easily use something like the branching channel one 15:26 < chris_99> to mix dye with cells 15:26 < jrayhawk> irclog2html.py anchors timestamps, if that's close enough 15:27 < jrayhawk> does CSS coloration, though, which is a bit lame 15:28 < jrayhawk> coloration should be done in HTML for compatibility with lynx/links/w3m 15:28 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:30 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:32 < jrayhawk> oh, you specified timestamps, nevermind 15:32 < jrayhawk> i mentally replaced that with "anchors specific lines" 15:33 < kanzure> anchoring specific lines is fine 15:33 < kanzure> probably? 15:33 < jrayhawk> yeah, doing that or both seems optimal, but i don't think i have ever seen it done 15:38 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:42 < chris_99> you guys seen this - http://www.microfluidic-chipshop.eu/Download/Lab-on-a-Chip%20Catalogue_032014.pdf 15:48 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:00 < nmz787_i> chris_99: I used ibidi stuff for that cell-flow monitoring i mentioned earlier 16:01 < chris_99> ah i think i was on that site before 16:01 < chris_99> i'll register on their site then to get the prices 16:04 < chris_99> eeeek 16:04 < chris_99> they're not cheap 16:04 < chris_99> e.g. http://www.thistlescientific.co.uk/acatalog/u-slide-iii-3in1.html 16:15 < nmz787_i> chris_99: so you'd probably want something with two inputs, an in-line backflow prevention valve for the cell-line (maybe), and some mixing posts... and either electrodes or optically clear so you can hook up to a microscope and camera or a spectrometer/photometer 16:16 < nmz787_i> I am not sure if PDMS swells with alcohol, but I would assume if it does it's minor 16:20 < chris_99> yeah i'm just looking at ones with reaction chambers 16:20 < chris_99> *mixing 16:20 < chris_99> regarding the pumps, what kind of pump did you use 16:26 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:27 < chris_99> from what i can tell the two main types are peristalic and syringe 16:27 < fenn> gravity works for some things too 16:29 < chris_99> mmm 16:29 < fenn> "When you started to publish the Whole Earth Catalogue in 1968, you said that you wanted to create a database so that “anyone on Earth can pick up a telephone and find out the complete information on anything.” Is that the idea of the internet, before the internet? 16:30 < fenn> Brand: Right, I had forgotten about that quote. Isn’t it nice that I didn’t have to go through the work of collecting that information, it just happened organically. Some people say to me that I should revive the catalogue and my answer is: The internet is better than any catalogue or encyclopedia could ever be." 16:31 -!- sivoais_ [~zaki@199.19.225.239] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:33 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-esjyfkctowipchgy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:34 < fenn> kanzure/faceface_ there's your pre-internet wikipedia 16:34 < kanzure> if you say so 16:35 < fenn> not really, it was heavily biased 16:35 < kanzure> you said web yesterday not pre-internet 16:35 < kanzure> stop changing the rules on me 16:35 < fenn> whatever 16:36 < fenn> i would hate to have to use a telephone to browse wikipedia 16:36 < kanzure> you guys act like wikipedia is some magical thing 16:36 < fenn> it is magical 16:36 < kanzure> it's just a set of files that get edited 16:37 < kanzure> (and then some overbearing politics, but let's not mention that) 16:44 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:45 < kragen> the overbearing politics are probably what make it magical 16:47 < kragen> I mean they're what determine what edits survive 16:48 < kragen> and what edits get made in the first place 16:48 < kanzure> yes the ability to edit pages is not novel or unique to wikipedia or any wiki for that matter 16:49 < fenn> uh what internet are you on 16:49 < kragen> Wikipedia without the overbearing politics is just the c2.com Wiki 16:49 < fenn> "the one with RFC-123456 that lets you edit pages, duh" 16:50 < fenn> webdav? 16:51 < fenn> anyway c2.com sucks 16:51 < fenn> you get 5 pages down and realize you've read the same thing multiple times but nobody bothered reading that far before re-posting 16:51 < kragen> because of the lack of overbearing politics, imo 16:53 < fenn> can you think of something with the ability to edit pages pre-wiki? 16:54 < kragen> pre-wiki is pretty early 16:54 < kragen> like 1994 I think 16:55 < fenn> hm i had never heard of wikis until around 2000 i guess 16:55 < kragen> 1995 16:56 < kragen> 2000 was the first time I installed wiki 16:57 < kragen> it seems like there must have been web pages editable through the web before 1995 but I can't remember any 16:57 < fenn> heh "Writeups in E1 were limited to 512 bytes in size" so that's why they're called "nodes" 16:57 < kragen> even Block Stackers Everything was a couple years later 16:57 < kragen> and that wasn't, I think, editable. just writable. there were I think some things like that on Philip Greenspun's site 16:58 < kragen> comment sections 16:58 < fenn> E1 was started march 1998 16:58 < kragen> three years later, then 16:58 < kragen> in 1996 it was still unusual to use dynamically generated web pages 16:58 < kragen> I mean CGI dates from before that obviously 16:59 < kragen> but people didn't run their web site off it 16:59 < kragen> AuctionWeb might have been contemporary. and ViaWeb. 16:59 < fenn> there were things like FAQs and HOWTOs but they were usually something like "email this person" and they would incorporate your changes if they liked them 16:59 < kragen> yeah, there was a thing called faq-o-matic at some point 17:00 < fenn> i kinda miss HOWTOs 17:00 < kragen> eBay was founded in September 1995 17:00 < kragen> already post-Wiki 17:01 < fenn> how can cunningham have started so early, the www barely existed then 17:01 < kragen> he's a very smart guy 17:01 < kragen> I think he's currently working on a thing he calls the Simplest Federated Wiki 17:01 < fenn> SFW 17:01 < kragen> which is like a decentralized Wiki that supports varying content types 17:02 < kragen> including bytebeat! 17:02 < nmz787> i saw him once at a local bar 17:02 < kragen> I met him in 2000 because he was interested in Comet-enabling Wiki, in particular for federation 17:02 < nmz787> well, the bar was hosting a gizmo meetup 17:02 < kragen> Craigslist didn't go web-based until 1996 17:03 < kragen> Viaweb was founded July 1995 17:03 < kragen> which I think is barely post-Wiki 17:03 < nmz787> i didn't know craigslist existed before like 2005 or something 17:03 < kragen> yeah, 1995 17:03 < kragen> but it was a mailing list at the time 17:03 < nmz787> i thought it started briefly before I first learned of it 17:04 < nmz787> :P 17:04 < kragen> people think that about everything 17:06 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07 < kragen> I can't tell how old FAQ-O-Matic is 17:07 < kragen> it might predate wiki but I don't think it does 17:07 < kragen> there was a thing called HyperNews 17:08 < kragen> an attempt to do Usenet on the Web 17:08 < kragen> still at hypernews.cern.ch apparently 17:08 < kragen> presumably you couldn't edit things you'd already posted but at least you could respond to them 17:10 < fenn> that doesn't count 17:10 < bbrittain> what's a diff except a response? 17:10 < fenn> it would still be up to the reader to apply a patch 17:11 < fenn> or 9 million patches 17:11 < bbrittain> don't assume you have a lazy reader :P 17:13 < fenn> sure you could implement a newsgroup patch protocol with client-side patching, but it didn't happen as far as i know 17:15 < nmz787> how would that work when someone responds to another "YOU'RE WRONG" 17:18 < fenn> it also breaks if you don't have a complete history 17:26 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:32 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:38 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:40 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:41 -!- sivoais_ [~zaki@199.19.225.239] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:53 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:54 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 18:00 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: HEx1, maaku, ThomasEgi, kenju254, audy, Vutral, rk[1] 18:02 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:12 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Vutral 18:18 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:18 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:27 < nmz787> this is tempting to buy http://www.thermal.com/what_is_thermal_desktop.html 18:27 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:29 < nmz787> .wik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium(IV)_oxide#Infrared_radiation_management 18:29 < yoleaux> "Vanadium(IV) oxide is the inorganic compound with the formula VO2. It is a dark blue solid. Vanadium(IV) oxide is amphoteric, dissolving in non-oxidising acids to give the vanadyl ion, [VO]2+ and in alkali to give the [V4O9]2− ion, or at high pH [VO4]4−." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium(IV)_oxide 18:29 < nmz787> "The thermochromic phase transition between the transparent semiconductive and reflective conductive phase, occurring at 68 °C, can happen in times as short as 100 femtoseconds" 18:30 < nmz787> "Vanadium dioxide can act as extremely fast optical shutters, optical modulators, infrared modulators for missile guidance systems, cameras, data storage, and other applications." 18:30 < fenn> finally a usb thermal camera 18:30 < fenn> $200 is not bad 18:31 < nmz787> no, especially compared to the other's avail now 18:31 < nmz787> FLIR has one for iPhone that is only 60x80 pixels 18:31 < fenn> i don't care about pixels really 18:31 < nmz787> that one is 206x156 18:31 < nmz787> and I think the FLIR one was also like 3 microns 18:32 < nmz787> http://www.flir.com/uploadedFiles/CVS_Americas/Cores_and_Components_NEW/Products/Uncooled_Cores/Lepton/FLIR-Lepton-DataBrief.pdf 18:32 < nmz787> oh, no it's 8-14 too 18:32 < nmz787> oh, same frame rate (9hz) 18:32 -!- kenju254 [~kenju254@static-41-242-0-196.ips.angani.co] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:32 -!- rk[1] [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:32 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:33 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:33 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:33 -!- audy [~audy@107.170.175.57] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:33 < nmz787> their 'shop' has a place for a coupon code, but I can't find any online 18:34 < kanzure> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPE7mU3myfk 18:34 < yoleaux> Cellular Mechanisms of Transcranial Direct Current Stimulation (tDCS) - YouTube 18:34 < fenn> what is the mechanism? 18:35 < fenn> don't make me watch an hour of video to find out "more research is needed" 18:36 < kanzure> i wasn't planning on actually watching it right now 18:36 < kanzure> ybit's more the "watch a video for an hour" type 18:36 < fenn> heath: i'll be waiting for your summary :P 18:38 * nmz787 put it on the TV 18:38 < kanzure> tdcs user videos? https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHl2ybrb92mWwoJWoMPK0j7mCnrEeQexI 18:40 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: HEx1, audy, maaku 18:41 < nmz787> wait a sec, I just talked to a friend recently who told me he had an electrode put in his brain to give him more neurotransmitter because the side-effects from the meds he had been taking were getting too bad 18:41 < kanzure> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22949089 18:41 < nmz787> and now he doesn't have to take any meds or at least less 18:41 < yoleaux> Transcranial current brain stimulation (tCS): models and technologies. - PubMed - NCBI 18:41 < kanzure> "Neuroanatomical, Neurophysiological and Neuropsychological Terminology" https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/neuroroot.html 18:42 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:42 < fenn> nmz787: that's probably deep brain stimulation, which is considered to be a different thing 18:42 < kanzure> but still a cool thing 18:42 < fenn> yeah but definitely not "DIY" 18:42 < nmz787> i was super surprised that he said that 18:43 < kanzure> "average cost for subthalamic nucleus deep brain stimulation implantation with microelectrode recording per patient is $26,764.79 for unilateral" 18:44 < bbrittain> I wanna hook a battery up to my head and be smarter 18:44 < bbrittain> hell, I wann hook up 20 battries 18:44 < bbrittain> let's hope it scales linearly 18:45 < kanzure> ultrasound. 18:45 < nmz787> or exponentially 18:45 < nmz787> really? pressure waves? 18:45 < kanzure> hmm i wonder how deep those deep brain stimulation electrodes need to go 18:45 < kanzure> because ultrasound will be way cheaper than $26k 18:45 < kanzure> although harder to position around your head on a regular basis 18:45 < kanzure> compared to having something static/fixed. hrm. 18:45 < nmz787> that sounds less effective/hackable 18:45 < nmz787> less hackability 18:46 < kanzure> deep brain stimulation is the one that is less hackable 18:46 < nmz787> tcds? 18:46 < kanzure> drill -> brain surgery -> close -> go back to brain surgery to fix anything 18:46 < kanzure> you said electrode in his brain 18:46 < kanzure> that's not tcds 18:46 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:46 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:46 -!- audy [~audy@107.170.175.57] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:46 < nmz787> isn't chemistry and electronics based on... electrons, not pressure differentials? 18:46 < nmz787> oh, yeah that friend 18:47 < kanzure> ultrasound has been shown to cause action potentials 18:47 * nmz787 is watching tcds on tv 18:47 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/ 18:47 < nmz787> bbrittain: your song can only use words from https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/neuroroot.html 18:48 < nmz787> or 2 degrees of separation from them 18:48 < nmz787> or maybe just 1 degree 18:48 < kanzure> i should really use sulcus more often 18:54 < fenn> so one mechanism they propose is "bimodal polarization" of neurons, where one end becomes positively charged by some number of mV and the other end is negatively charged; since pyramidal neurons always have the soma (the "important end") at the bottom, the soma is positively charged and will fire more actively 18:55 < fenn> this charge happens because V=IR and the R is across the neuron 18:55 < kanzure> "at the bottom" 18:55 < kanzure> hm? 18:55 < kanzure> what is my frame of reference 18:55 < fenn> in this reference frame "top" is the skull 18:56 < kanzure> huh. okay. 18:56 < fenn> of course the cortex has wrinkles 18:56 < kanzure> sulcri! 18:56 < kanzure> someone's not paying attention 18:56 < nmz787> 'tcds changes the sensitivity to tms' 18:56 < fenn> "this is a first-order approximation to start the thought process" 18:56 < nmz787> what is tms? 18:56 < kanzure> transcranial magnetic stimulation 18:58 < fenn> "0.3mV doesn't sound like very much when action potential is 100mV" 18:59 < kanzure> http://i.imgur.com/5iHr8fz.jpg 19:02 < fenn> what do you have that tagged as? 19:02 < kanzure> bishop 19:06 < fenn> you should eat some raw garlic, just a little 19:08 < kanzure> hm? 19:08 < kanzure> will that stop my eye from falling out? 19:09 < fenn> potentially 19:10 < kanzure> anyway i'm like 98% sue that show was written based on me 19:10 < fenn> was it from "fringe"? 19:10 < kanzure> you didn't even do a reverse image search :( 19:10 < kanzure> what's the point of having gigantic image indexes if nobody uses them 19:11 < delinquentme> are there legal implications for journalists who fuck up being journalists? 19:11 < fenn> tineye kinda sucks and google image search only works with javascript 19:11 < nmz787> how can you find an IRC user, like what room they are in? 19:12 < fenn> "Placement of the dot around a glyph may indicate digital value, or cypher coding, in addition to the alphabetic value that is represented." 19:15 < fenn> nmz787: freenode turned that off (mode invisible by default) 19:17 < nmz787> that video was kinda lame 19:17 < nmz787> he mostly talked about cells in a petri dish and electrical concepts 19:17 < nmz787> I guess it was a room full of biologists 19:18 < nmz787> but like the top and bottom voltage offset stuff is stuff the electron/ion microscope user group was talking about last month 19:18 < nmz787> except they were interested in a specimen, not a cell 19:18 < fenn> imaging artifacts? those are much higher voltages 19:19 < nmz787> to get around charging and stuff sometimes, or to deflect certain electrons from getting to the detector... to get better signal from the other types of electrons 19:22 < fenn> i don't buy this mechanism as the entire explanation because tDCS has an aftereffect that lasts for hours to months 19:27 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vphbxwbezadqurkd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 19:30 < kanzure> "Compute Engine VMs boot within 30 seconds [7] which is considered to be 4-10x faster than the competition." 19:30 < kanzure> sigh 19:30 < catern> 30 seconds isn't very fast for full boot time 19:31 < catern> i could put together a VM host that boots faster than that with just tools from around the house 19:31 < catern> clone a copy on write disk image, start qemu, done 19:31 < fenn> systemd fanboys claim 900ms boot time 19:32 < catern> fenn: i was assuming most of the time was spent in allocation 19:32 < catern> yeah, the OS itself shouldn't take more than 2 seconds 19:32 < catern> in a virtualized environment 19:33 < catern> (okay, exaggeration, maybe on first boot you want to do some things, so let's say 5 seconds) 19:33 < catern> full system containers can be allocated and booted and networked in 100ms or so 19:33 < catern> (something like that) 19:34 < nmz787> i was looking at tablets the other day, trying to find a cheap ($200 ish) device with a 1080 screen.... and learned that windows RT 8.1 doesn't allow apps to run unless they're from the MS store 19:34 < nmz787> unless it's jailbroken or something 19:40 < nmz787> fenn: you may take interest in https://cloud.sagemath.com 19:42 < fenn> i never developed the enthusiasm for hieroglyphics that my contemporaries have 19:43 < fenn> that page is hilariously badly rendered in dillo btw 19:43 < kanzure> where's your tapeworm? 19:44 < fenn> suprachiasmatic nucleus 19:46 < fenn> "clock gene" what a remarkably clearly named gene 19:57 < fenn> "Drugs that activate dopamine receptors speed up ones perception of time, while dopamine antagonists cause one to feel that time is passing slowly" 19:58 < fenn> does that mean "time flies when you're having fun" 19:59 < kanzure> hmph 20:00 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:991c:987c:d2fe:b825] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:05 < fenn> "In his book "Awakenings", Oliver Sacks discusses how patients with Parkinson's disease experience deficits in their awareness of time and tempo. For example, Mr E, when asked to clap his hands steadily and regularly did so for the first few claps before clapping faster and irregularly; culminating in an apparent freezing of motion. When he finished, Mr E asked if his observers were glad he did 20:05 < fenn> it correctly to which they replied "no". Mr E was offended by this because to him, his claps were regular and steady." 20:05 < fenn> your sense of time offends me, sir 20:12 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:18 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:36 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Ix6dRNNQs 20:36 < yoleaux> steve lovesey-soaring high-alfonso muchacho remix - YouTube 20:48 < kanzure> haha they let star trek on youtube now? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQwoT5y7R4Y 20:53 < kanzure> "Computer production requires optical and electronic devices far beyond the capability of an individual to produce. The crystals of silicon used to produce most computer chips require sophisticated ovens and production facilities that few people could build. The tools used to manufacture wafers from silicon crystals depends on generations of development that could not be built in even a sophisticated machine shop. Even something as seemingly ... 20:53 < kanzure> ... simple as a pocket calculator was beyond the capability of the technology that put a man on the moon in the 1960s. 20:53 < kanzure> i hate this person already 20:54 < kanzure> and he calls himself "the librarian"? man librarians suck 20:55 < kanzure> jokes on him because he's missing out on the cool name "dread pirate archivist" 20:55 < kanzure> "dread pirate just minding my own business" 21:17 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:27 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:37 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:39 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-57-55-138.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:41 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone. 21:51 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:52 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:59 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:59 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:04 -!- Jaakko9113 [~Jaakko@host86-155-144-71.range86-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:08 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:23 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:991c:987c:d2fe:b825] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:40 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:55 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:03 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:16 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:23 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:29 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:30 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:57 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] --- Log closed Sat Nov 22 00:00:21 2014