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00:12 < nmz787> were y'all lookin for this? http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Comparative_analyses_of_evolutionary_rates_reveal_different_pathways_to_encephalization_in_bats_carnivorans_and_primates.pdf
00:13 < nmz787> fenn: I think that sambrook book may actually be part of a shelf-wide set (I could be misremembering that)
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01:50 < archels> kanzure: afaik, the main deficit in apes' brains compared to humans is their much smaller prefrontal cortex
01:52 < archels> when are we launching the kickstarter to engineer superintelligent apes?
01:54 < genehacker> aren't you a superintelligent ape?
01:58 < archels> thanks, but that's too much honour
01:59 < archels> also I wasn't engineered
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03:38 < chris_99> hmm, apparently the company i contacted that do pretty cheap microfluidic chips
03:38 < chris_99> also do custom made ones
03:46 < genehacker> now if they would only do picoarrays....
03:47 < chris_99> heh
03:49 < chris_99> Asking what size lithography process they use, seems a sensible question right?
03:59 < genehacker> yah
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04:41 < delinquentme> chris_99, i have a chip design I was looking for a price on
04:41 < delinquentme> you mind sending it over?
04:42 < chris_99> winsense.co.th is the company
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06:10 < kanzure> archels: afaik the size of the prefrontal cortex is not the only difference
06:11 < kanzure> and this is what the experiment would be useful for determining (whether or not number of neurons is sufficient to make a monkey brain do what a human brain do)
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06:23 < kanzure> .wik neanderthal genome
06:23 < archels> well, it probably takes more than just dropping more neurons in there
06:24 < kanzure> i was thinking there may be some large macrocircuit differences that allow for executive control or something
06:25 < kanzure> although that sounds like a homunculus
06:25 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf
06:28 < kanzure> portia connectome is a thing we should do eventually
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06:42 < kanzure> hello eudoxia 
06:45 < eudoxia> hey kanzure
06:55 < eudoxia> kanzure: i found a little library that might make rewriting nanoengineer easier https://github.com/fogleman/pg
06:55 < kanzure> "infect hiv-positive individuals with a less-deadly strain of hiv" http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~piecze/Lancet.PDF
06:56 < kanzure> eudoxia: honestly whenever i next put in a chunk of time on nanoengineer i will not be focusing on the gui at all, except for when i have to rip it off or delete it
06:57 < kanzure> contrary opinion about the hiv-versus-hiv idea http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169464/
06:57 < eudoxia> kanzure: well, there isn't much to NE other than the GUI, except OpenBabel integration
06:58 < kanzure> right
06:58 < kanzure> that's a good thing
06:58 < kanzure> makes my job easier
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07:31 < kanzure> "As it turns out, the answer was even more interesting: the elephant brain as a whole has 3 times the number of neurons of the human brain, 257 billion neurons against an average 86 billion in ours, BUT 98% of those neurons are located in the elephant cerebellum, which turns out to be a major outlier in the numeric relationship between numbers of neurons in the cerebral cortex and cerebellum. While other mammals (humans included) have ...
07:31 < kanzure> ... about 4 neurons in the cerebellum to every neuron in the cerebral cortex, the elephant has 45 neurons in the cerebellum to every neuron in the cerebral cortex. All we can do for now is to speculate on the reason for this extraordinary number of neurons in the elephant cerebellum, and the most likely candidates right now is to me the fine sensorimotor control of the trunk, a 200-pound appendage that has amazingly fine sensory and ...
07:31 < kanzure> ... motor capabilities, which are known to involve the cerebellum."
07:31 < kanzure> "Despite the enormous number of neurons in the elephant cerebellum, its cerebral cortex, which is twice the size of ours, has only one third of the neurons in an average human cerebral cortex. Taken together, these results suggest that the limiting factor to cognitive abilities is not the number of neurons in the whole brain, but in the cerebral cortex (to which I would add, “provided that the cerebellum has enough neurons to shape ...
07:31 < kanzure> ... activity in the cerebral cortex”)."
07:31 < kanzure> from http://intelligence.org/2014/04/22/suzana-herculano-houzel/
07:31 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2010&q=Suzana+Herculano-Houzel&hl=en&as_sdt=0,44
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07:47 < eudoxia> i'm more surprised by how the trunk masses 90 kilograms, i would have thought it would be something like 45kg
07:48 < eudoxia> .wa 200lbs in kg
07:49 < kanzure> wolfram is thinking really hard about your request
07:50 < eudoxia> conversion is done by a 7d cellular automaton i'm sure
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07:53 < eudoxia> .c 200lbs in kg
07:54 < eudoxia> ugh
07:54 < Qfwfq> 90.7kg
07:54 < eudoxia> no .botsnack for you yoleaux
07:55 < kanzure> i wonder if there are any disorders similar to microencephaly that are specifically caused by low absolute numbers of neurons in the cortex in human
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09:28 < nmz787_i> "LIGO has three detectors: one in Livingston, Louisiana; the other two (in the same vacuum tubes) at the Hanford site in Richland, Washington. Each consists of two light storage arms which are 2 to 4 kilometers in length. These are at 90 degree angles to each other, with the light passing through 1m diameter vacuum tubes running the entire 4 kilometers."
09:31 < nmz787_i> hmm, http://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/HanfordSiteTours
09:32 < nmz787_i> 'question: can we see the meter-wide vacuum tubes?'
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09:36 < nmz787_i> bunch of mailing lists https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0112/P1400033/005/FinalDocumentAug2014%289%29.pdf
09:44 < nmz787_i> there are so many of these hackathon things that go on.... I had a thought that kanzure should come up with a good hackathon idea and sponsor pizza and drinks.... I bet we could swindle some room for a day or two near downtown
09:45 < nmz787_i> for CAD  or something.... maybe some local autodesk folks would show up
09:46 < nmz787_i> or a smaller non-local pizza-sponsored thing for paperbot stuff
09:46 < kanzure> i don't think that cad is something that can be solved in a single day
09:47 < kanzure> although i think if you fed this guy pizza that he would do some interesting things: https://github.com/pboyer/verb
09:47 < nmz787_i> no, but you should still have one
09:47 < kanzure> "more surface-surface intersection thoughts" https://github.com/pboyer/verb/commit/56a07afd68efb1334940aaded57fef47a7bc783a
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09:58 < ParahSailin> no fuck you guido i was using tuple unpack in lambdas
09:59 < ParahSailin> from __past__ import useful_shit
09:59 < nmz787_i> http://paste.pound-python.org/show/eQe6yvE3ykhjcNXCWPfd/
09:59 < nmz787_i> "BioNano Genomics:  de novo Genome Mapping using single molecules"
09:59 < nmz787_i> "Abstract: We present a single-molecule imaging system (Irys) based on NanoChannel Array technology that linearizes extremely long DNA molecules for direct observation of the long-range architectural and organizational information contained within all manners of complex genomes."
10:04 < nmz787_i> ParahSailin: have you seen this ? http://www.bionanogenomics.com/technology/why-genome-mapping/
10:04 < nmz787_i> http://www.bionanogenomics.com/technology/nanochannel-arrays/
10:04 < nmz787_i> that looks quite similar to a nanofluidic I found and was planning to try replicating the protocol of
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10:40 < superkuh> "“We know researchers are already sharing content, often in hidden corners of the Internet or using clumsy, time-consuming practices,” said a statement by Timo Hannay, the managing director of Digital Science, a division of Macmillan that has invested in ReadCube."
10:41 < superkuh> http://www.nature.com/news/nature-makes-all-articles-free-to-view-1.16460
10:55 < kanzure> that $40k/pdf thing... wtf.
10:55 < kanzure> readcube is pretty awfu
10:55 < kanzure> i don't know if you've tried reverse engineering it
10:55 < kanzure> but basically: png images of every page
10:55 < kanzure> and then they charge you rental fees
10:56 < kanzure> sorry to bring you such bad news heh
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10:59 < nmz787_i> "Nature will make its articles back to 1869 free to share to be read online but not to be printed or downloaded."    NEWSFLASH - reading in your browser requires downloading
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11:08 < superkuh> Well aware of readcube's shit.
11:15 < kanzure> what i don't understand is how readcube convinced them to use readcube at all
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11:16 < kanzure> paperbot$ grep "readcube" *.txt | wc -l
11:16 < kanzure> 119
11:17 < kanzure> http://onlinelibrarystatic.wiley.com/js/wol.readcube.js
11:17 < kanzure> http://download.readcube.com/client/readcube.exe
11:17 < kanzure> http://download.readcube.com/client/readcube.dmg
11:18 < kanzure> http://cdn.objects.readcube.com/prerendered/e45571ca078733939300653847d58acfe97071a3df324c96bb08f782fabd98b5/1.jpg?Expires=1577836800&amp;Signature=iNnOUyQa-07WCiR5uWyfmFaNM8oeC9QiFziOvnjs2Bb1RvfmQaU5BFOH4wdkS4ZsCrPtaTOAnAU-zYI~yeYLjNLJqXO5hdoFWJlSfURFd66Msk5e4UBZbCH-H~RBDiaIY2TGT9cjbMI08XJMbJJ26SKPh2FytzaZxAvafy~hLls_&amp;Key-Pair-Id=APKAI2AQJBOTGLBL6N3A
11:19 < archels> https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/178df0aceff05642f8ada11c5fc52287/tumblr_nfdspvL6UT1qb26yko1_1280.jpg
11:24 < kanzure> readcube cloudfront is http://di4gj5lwn0jim.cloudfront.net/
11:25 < nmz787_i> would we need to make a bot that shares every link it has access to? to at least make all the readcube-available data accessible
11:27 < kanzure> they will just revoke access
11:27 < kanzure> and also, who the fuck wants pngs of every page? nobody
11:27 < nmz787_i> sure people want pngs, if pdfs aren't available
11:27 < kanzure> no thanks
11:28 < kanzure> i am also uninterested in associating myself with people that are okay with that
11:28 < nmz787_i> and why would they revoke access, didn't that article say sharing links from institutions was allowed?
11:28 < nmz787_i> psh, you just don't like data enough obviouslyt
11:28 < kanzure> "sharing links to all articles" is not one of the things they will be okay with
11:29 < nmz787_i> so you're saying if there was an article you absolutely couldn't get within a minute or so, but the png link was available, you wouldn't read the png?
11:29 < nmz787_i> that would be pretty dumb
11:29 < kanzure> that's right
11:29 < kanzure> https://d1ybdlpf6gb4fg.cloudfront.net/reader/builds/stable/reader.swf?Expires=1420070400&Signature=HvGH6KChcjDOLTWY4kcB0b~FkmMulIgoEZJnBKukX5obVoK090WIuOr4~gDOJoTkn-qwnPA8nnr3ch1yx1DRQhgcILNcz6goaxh6iUX6zraIwJWYJbhe1kLU-BZAe54ZCgjhPqpht3sWcUHwX~oncCxxPiBM55OsqAk8mPYnbU4_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAI2AQJBOTGLBL6N3A
11:30 < nmz787_i> wow
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12:33 < fenn> regarding my earlier comment about "the liberals", saw this in the paper today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2014/12/01/nows-your-chance-to-buy-james-watsons-nobel-prize-because-racism/
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12:47 < fenn> this was on page 2 btw, not some opinion column
12:51 < heath> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2117384013/flux-all-in-one-3d-printer-unlimited-elegant-simpl
12:51 < heath> when my zego arrives, i'm selling it if anyone wants it for a good deal
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13:00 < fenn> "we took the best of open source designs and put a glossy plastic shell on it"
13:01 < fenn> i can't tell if i'm becoming a crank of if everyone just sucks
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13:08 < fenn> hah "carbon fiber reinforced PLA" http://www.proto-pasta.com/product/
13:09 < fenn> it's actually weaker than regular PLA
13:09 < kanzure> everyone sucks
13:10 < kanzure> are there any human diseases that involve a reduction in absolute number of neurons in the brain?
13:10 < heath> i just wish i'd known they were going to take my money regardless of them passing their goal
13:10 < heath> that was my first experience with indiegogo
13:10 < kanzure> also, in the absence of monkeys getting more neurons, is there some other way to test whether or not absolute number of neurons is the trick?
13:11 < fenn> heath: the FLUX is on kickstarter though...?
13:11 < heath> i was referencing the zego
13:11 < kanzure> for example, maybe there is a hereditary disease that turns humans into something approximating a chimpanzee
13:11 < kanzure> i guess i should search for "human monkey disorder"
13:11 < heath> fenn: sorry for not being clear, sir :)
13:12 < kanzure> and maybe that disease doesn't change absolute number of neurons but instead something else important
13:12 < kanzure> i suppose it would be helpful if people have looked into all the novel ways that mental retardation can happen
13:12 < fenn> if they don't pass the goal do they still give you a printer?
13:12 < kanzure> "mental retardation involving chimpanzee sounds"
13:13 < heath> fenn: they are supposedly working on it, i think they had some problems and so there's a delay
13:13 < fenn> woah  badass skull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vimont_Traite_de_Phrenologie_022.jpg
13:14 < heath> they haven't released cad files, and it's difficult to get in touch with the guy over the project, that's my biggest complaint
13:14 < heath> those are my biggest complaints, rather
13:15 < fenn> kanzure: my mom went to high school with a girl like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocephalus#Exceptional_case
13:16 < kanzure> there's also microencephalis
13:16 < fenn> she didnt say anything about "borderline intellectual functioning though" the girl was quite normal on the outside
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13:17 < kanzure> "One interesting case of hydrocephalus was a man whose brain shrank to a thin sheet of tissue, due to buildup of cerebrospinal fluid in his skull."
13:17 < kanzure> "Dr. Lionel Feuillet of Hôpital de la Timone in Marseille said, "The images were most unusual... the brain was virtually absent."[13]"
13:17 < kanzure> right... so an iq of 75 seems pretty good, really.
13:17 < fenn> basically the difference between having wrinkles and not having wrinkles
13:18 < kanzure> what?
13:18 < fenn> so maybe that doesn't really represent a difference in number of neurons
13:18 < kanzure> a thin sheet sounds dramatically different from "wrinkles vs no wrinkles"
13:18 < fenn> are you sure?
13:19 < kanzure> i have no idea :(
13:20 < kanzure> to me a "thin sheet" means something like "more than 70% of the matter is missing"
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13:30 < fenn> http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/misc/mysterious-brain.html "Since she was a child, doctors have told her that she has no more than 10-15% of a normal brain. ... far from being an idiot, has an IQ of 113 making her above average."
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13:37 < fenn> hrm ok what a misleading article. "although Sharon's ventricles expanded hugely because of her hydrocephalus, it was not at the expense of brain size. ... her brain is actually occupying a larger space"
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13:52 < jrayhawk> Well, this helps: /set activity_hide_level JOINS PARTS QUITS MODES TOPICS NICKS
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13:56 < kanzure> does that remove messages from each window, or only the notifications?
13:57 < kanzure> er i mean, does it remove the "somejerk has parted" messages in the main text receptacle
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14:00 < eudoxia> 'receptacle' is a funny word for it
14:01 < jrayhawk> there's three different levels of channel activity flag in the statusbar; this eliminates everything that would generate the lowest one
14:02 < kanzure> so it is only statusbar-impacting
14:02 < jrayhawk> yeah
14:02 < kanzure> neat
14:02 < kanzure> "Lissencephaly, which literally means smooth brain, is a rare brain formation disorder caused by defective neuronal migration during the 12th to 24th weeks of gestation resulting in a lack of development of brain folds (gyri) and grooves (sulci).[1] It is a form of cephalic disorder. Terms such as 'agyria' (no gyri) or 'pachygyria' (broad gyri) are used to describe the appearance of the surface of the brain. Children with lissencephaly ...
14:02 < kanzure> ... generally have significant developmental delays, but these vary greatly from child to child depending on the degree of brain malformation and seizure control. Life expectancy can be shortened, generally due to respiratory problems."
14:03 < kanzure> "The prognosis for children with lissencephaly varies depending on the malformation. Many individuals remain in a 3-5 month developmental level, while others may appear to have near normal intelligence and development. Some children with lissencephaly will be able to roll over, sit, reach for objects, and smile socially. Aspiration and respiratory disease are the most common causes of illness or death.[11] In the past, life expectancy ...
14:03 < kanzure> ... was said to be around two years of age. However, with advances in seizure control, and treatments for respiratory illness, most children live well beyond that age."
14:04 < kanzure> "With other advances in therapy, and the broader availability of services and equipment, some children with lissencephaly are able to walk with varying degrees of assistance and to perform other functions once thought too advanced."
14:07 < fenn> i've been going through the "congenital malformations and deformations of the nervous system - brain - other" template on wikipedia; haven't found anything with a reduction in neuron count yet
14:08 < eudoxia> YIL: koalas have smooth brains, among a bunch of other really sad stuff that makes them evolutionary dead ends
14:08 < fenn> their neoteny will save them
14:08 < fenn> koalas will outlast the amish
14:09 < eudoxia> i very much doubt humans care enough about cute animals
14:10 < jrayhawk> they can be turned into special eucalyptus-infused paperclips
14:11 < fenn> hello koala paperclip set, for jupiter brains of all ages
14:11 < kanzure> .wik microgyrus
14:12 < fenn> yoleaux is dead; long live yoleaux!
14:12 < kanzure> "A microgyrus is an area of the cerebral cortex that includes only four cortical layers instead of six."
14:13 < eudoxia> what happened to all the bots in this channel
14:13 < eudoxia> gradstudentbot, yoleaux, paperbot
14:13 < fenn> cryptoviridium, a plague that affects IRC bots
14:14 < eudoxia> also the gnusha bot
14:19 < fenn> "Approximately 1 out of 50 children (2%) are said to have the characteristics of megalencephaly in the general population."
14:20 < fenn> wow
14:20 < kanzure> "week 7: The brain divides into 5 vesicles, including the early telencephalon."
14:22 < kanzure> "At the five-vesicle stage, the forebrain separates into the diencephalon (thalamus, hypothalamus, subthalamus, epithalamus, and pretectum) and the endbrain (cerebrum). The cerebrum consists of the cerebral cortex, underlying white matter, and the basal ganglia. By 5 weeks in utero, it is visible as a single portion toward the front of the fetus. At 8 weeks in utero, the forebrain splits into the left and right cerebral hemispheres. When ...
14:22 < kanzure> ... the embryonic forebrain fails to divide the brain into two lobes, it results in a condition known as holoprosencephaly."
14:22 < kanzure> okay.. so the problem would have to happen between week 5 and 8.
14:27 < kanzure> "Autosomal recessive primary microcephaly (MCPH) is a neuro-developmental disorder that causes a great reduction in brain growth in utero. MCPH is hypothesized to be a primary disorder of neurogenic mitosis, leading to reduced neuron number. Hence, MCPH proteins are likely to be important components of cellular pathways regulating human brain size. At least six genes can cause this disorder and four of these have recently been ...
14:27 < kanzure> ... identified: autosomal recessive primary microcephaly 1 (MCPH1), abnormal spindle-like, microcephaly associated (ASPM), cyclin-dependent kinase 5 regulatory subunit-associated protein 2 (CDK5RAP2) and centromere protein J (CENPJ). Whereas aberration of ASPM is the most common cause of MCPH, MCPH1 patients can be more readily diagnosed by the finding of increased numbers of ‘prophase-like cells’ on routine cytogenetic ...
14:27 < kanzure> ... investigation. Three MCPH proteins are centrosomal components but have apparently diverse roles that affect mitosis. There is accumulating evidence that evolutionary changes to the MCPH genes have contributed to the large brain size seen in primates, particularly humans. The aim of this article is to review what has been learnt about the rare condition primary microcephaly and the information this provides about normal brain growth."
14:27 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471491406001365
14:27 < kanzure> .title
14:28 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20What%20primary%20microcephaly%20can%20tell%20us%20about%20brain%20growth%0A%20.pdf
14:28 < ParahSailin> what does that mean to be an evolutionary dead end
14:29 < kanzure> well, practically similar article:
14:29 < kanzure> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2816178/
14:29 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.tig.2009.09.011
14:29 < kanzure> fuck you paperbot
14:30 < kanzure> "There has been a clear increase in relative brain size from monkeys to apes to humans. In just 3–5 million years the human brain increased threefold in size compared with that of our closest primate relatives. This has led to a search for the genes (and the changes within those genes) responsible for this expansion. The MCPH genes were obvious candidates as mutations affect brain size exclusively, and evidence of positive Darwinian ...
14:30 < kanzure> ... selection was found in the monkey–primate–human evolutionary tree for MCPH1, 3, 5 and 6 [1,57]."
14:34 < kanzure> "Making bigger brains-the evolution of neural-progenitor-cell division" http://www.seco-project.eu/files/publications/fish%2008%20j%20cell%20sci.pdf
14:36 < kanzure> "Microcephaly is a disorder of fetal brain growth; individuals with microcephaly have small brains and almost always have mental retardation, although rare individuals with mild microcephaly (-3 SD) and normal intelligence have been reported."
14:36 < kanzure> "MCPH is associated with a simplification of the cerebral cortical gyral pattern and a slight reduction in the volume of the white matter, consistent with the small size of the brain, but the architecture of the brain in general is normal, with no evidence of a neuronal migration defect (review by Woods et al., 2005)."
14:37 < kanzure> "Although Qazi and Reed (1975) stated that carriers of primary microcephaly have diminished intelligence, Pattison et al. (2000) noted that this had not been seen in any of the families in with linkage to specific MCPH loci had been reported."
14:37 < kanzure> this is from http://www.omim.org/entry/251200
14:41 < kanzure> http://smithlhhsb122.wikispaces.com/file/view/1-s2_0-S1568786410004118-gr1.jpg/417449352/1-s2_0-S1568786410004118-gr1.jpg
14:44 < kanzure> weird how nobody counts neurons
14:44 < kanzure> especially in cases of abnormal brain development
14:51 < fenn> so "microcephaly" means any of 50 distinct disorders
14:51 < kanzure> "primary microcephaly" in particular
14:51 < kanzure> from eric hunting: "Anything that even hints at the redundancy of astronauts is anathema. I've long been pointing out how there are more active astronauts than ever in history and, right now, the only one people in the US can readily name is Canadian... Yet people--kids especially--know the rovers and probes. Hot Wheels makes toys of them--not to mention countless model kit manufacturers. We have movie franchises like Pixar's Cars and ...
14:51 < kanzure> ... Planes. Rockets could readily be next. Recently, NASA has started to catch-on but old traditions die hard and their PR efforts remain notoriously half-assed, as demonstrated by their weird attempts at creating MMOs."
14:52 < fenn> but "microcephalin" is a gene regulating brain cell division in the forebrain
14:52 < kanzure> "Especially when compared to ESA's equivalent project, Rollin' Justin, which has such fast actuators and motion control it can catch objects in free-flight, juggle, and play badminton. It also has walking legs under development.... http://www.sciencespacerobots.com/2014pics/rollin-justin-robot.jpg It never occurred to them that, perhaps, they might make a 'tele-puppet' version of it that could move faster and be used like an ...
14:52 < kanzure> ... entertainment robot. It's been pretty-much a prop as it is."
14:52 < kanzure> don't question biologists and their name choices the whole system might collapse if you do
14:53 < fenn> well this is why i dismissed the "microcephalin" keyword in the first place
14:53 < fenn> even though it was the thing we should have been looking at all along
14:55 < kanzure> that part about normal intelligence in some rare cases of (primary?) microcephaly are a little strange.. don't know what to do about that.
14:55 < kanzure> maybe those weren't primary microcephaly
14:57 < fenn> how did they define normal?
14:57 < fenn> there's a big difference between "being able to feed yourself with a fork" and "IQ = 100"
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14:58 < kanzure> i don't have a good grasp of iq 10 through 70
14:59 < fenn> well forrest gump is IQ = 75 (supposedly)
14:59 < kanzure> well he's practically a genius
14:59 < fenn> he's definitely capable of eating with a fork at least
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14:59 < kanzure> he can speak and tell stories
14:59 < fenn> drive a boat
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15:01 < fenn> wtf
15:02 < fenn> "I'm surprised no one has called Jenny a rapist" are these people serious
15:05 < kanzure> "We have movie franchises like Pixar's Cars and Planes. Rockets could readily be next." needs to be satellites and space colonies.
15:07 < fenn> Adults can harvest vegetables, repair furniture IQ = 60    Adults can do domestic work IQ = 50
15:08 < kanzure> damn
15:08 < kanzure> still pretty high up there
15:08 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLHx4GAVAkA
15:08 < fenn> some random person said "in the real world a person with an IQ of 75 has difficulty learning how to tie their shoes and tell time."
15:09 < kanzure> probably there's trouble measuring profound mental disability
15:09 < fenn> well it can be hard to distinguish "i don't care about your test" vs "i don't understand your test"
15:10 < kanzure> and "i am hungry give me food" in squealy muscle spasm language
15:18 < kanzure> i can't figure out any real conclusions to draw from this
15:18 < kanzure> number of neurons may or may not matter, apparently
15:18 < fenn> to draw from what
15:18 < fenn> MCPH1 mutations?
15:18 < kanzure> from those reports of primary microcephaly
15:19 < kanzure> right
15:19 < fenn> "a direct link between these particular genes and either cognition or intelligence has not been clearly established."
15:19 < fenn> 2006 ish
15:20 < kanzure> i have had trouble stating the exact competing ideas here
15:20 < kanzure> number of neurons is easy to express
15:20 < kanzure> the other one is something like "there is a particuar macrocircuit that either only humans have or that only humans have a particular set of modifications to that allows them to make better use of their brain"
15:21 < kanzure> *at least one particular macrocircuit
15:22 < kanzure> and then there's "every detail of the brain that hasn't been eliminated by loss-of-function studies or knockouts are equally important to human cognitive abilities"
15:22 < kanzure> ("equally important" is me being snarky and unfair)
15:24 < fenn> how about 6 layer cortex; that seems pretty important but doesn't directly relate to number of neurons
15:24 < fenn> and doesn't involve "macrocircuits" whatever that is
15:25 < kanzure> haha, wait let's get macrocircuits done first
15:25 < fenn> nooo
15:26 < fenn> i hate being forced to learn false ontologies
15:26 < kanzure> so are you trying to argue for the only preserved motifs between brains are microcircuits?
15:26 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamocortical_radiations
15:27 < superkuh> Rodolfo R Llinás book, "I of the Vortex: From Neurons to Self" has many interesting opinions on these topics.
15:27 < fenn> are thalamocortical radiations "macrocircuits"?
15:28 < kanzure> superkuh: i have been trying to explain macrocircuits/circuits to fenn... wikipedia does not have a good article on the subject.
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15:29 < fenn> "Computational neuroscientists are particularly interested in thalamocortical loops because they represent a structure that is disproportionally larger and more complex in humans than other mammals"
15:29 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Central_nervous_system_pathways
15:29 < fenn> someone could sort through all this comparative anatomy for their entire life and never get anywhere
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15:32 < kanzure> well, yes, you need to do something with the comparison-derived knowledge
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15:40 < kanzure> "paleoneurology" pffft
15:47 < kanzure> "The complete genome sequence of a Neanderthal from the Altai Mountains" (2014) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/abs/nature12886.html
15:49 < kanzure> Transcriptomic insights into human brain evolution: acceleration, neutrality, heterochrony http://www.metu.edu.tr/~msomel/pdf/Curr%20Opin%20Genet%20Dev%202014%20Somel.pdf
15:49 < kanzure> page 2 table 1 has some comparisons to chimp brain
15:49 < kanzure> and it's referenced
15:52 < kanzure> "It was long suggested that a simple shift in life-history extending the infantile period could have aided rapid cultural accumulation across human generations, by allowing more time for learning [1,61,62,97]. The transcriptomic results imply that the early period of high synaptic plasticity, when learning is most rapid [93] (reviewed in [98–100]), was particularly extended. Human heterochrony is therefore not ubiquitous, but alters ...
15:52 < kanzure> ... synaptic maturation in a specific brain region."
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15:58 < kanzure> "Can the cognitive differences between humans and our closest primate relatives be explained in terms of a scalable cortical architecture? We bring to bear diverse sources of evidence to argue that the answers to each of these questions — with some judicious qualifications — are in the affirmative." http://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/AAAI/AAAI12/paper/viewFile/5093/5299
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16:05 < kanzure> "nymchinsky"
16:07 < kanzure> "cortical arealization" really...
16:09 < kanzure> "Transistor count is sometimes given as a proxy for the performance of a new processor chip, but every computer scientist knows it is not the number of transistors or even the number of logic gates that matter, but how those components are organized. The reason transistor count is at all interesting is that processor architectures are modular and highly scalable. Registers, caches, processor cores and SIMD lanes all scale — more is ...
16:09 < kanzure> ... generally better"
16:09 < kanzure> "The PAX-6 gene has the capability that if expressed in a fruit fly it builds a fruit-fly eye and if expressed in a mouse it builds a mouse eye (Callaerts, Halder, and Gehring 1997)."
16:11 < kanzure> "While more cortical columns and more densely packed neurons in layers could help to accelerate some computations, the biggest potential gains would likely come from an increase in the depth of combinatorial circuits that can be constructed from the neural substrate. The human brain can’t implement stacks or recursion as we commonly do on von Neumann machines. Instead it must replicate structures and maintain information on the stack, ...
16:11 < kanzure> ... perhaps using some form of what O’Reilly calls “limited variable binding” (O’Reilly 2006)."
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16:16 < kanzure> "How could such differences confer computational advantages that might account for the observed cognitive differences between the species? Certainly a larger working memory and support for representing more complicated relationships might be at play, but we suggest here that the key is the ability to realize deeper combinatorial circuits which would enable us to handle longer chains of inference, deeper recursive embedding, and nested ...
16:16 < kanzure> ... representational structures. In general, a deeper stack, whether this be realized in software or by replicating cortical structures, allows for deeper procedural nesting and richer representations."
16:16 < kanzure> "The mystery of homo sapiens’ dominance might also be resolved by appeal to our strong social instinct. Noting that apes have the capacity for abstract thinking and evidence localizing such function in the prefrontal cortex, O’Reilly (2006) suggests the possibility that the critical difference may be due not to the hardware, despite its being quantitatively superior, but to “the motivations that drive us to spend so much time ...
16:16 < kanzure> ... learning and communicating what we have learned to others.” And recent evidence (Shultz, Opie, and Atkinson 2011) supports the hypothesis that social behavior is deeply rooted in genetics and thus a “species has to operate with whatever social structure it inherits.”"
16:22 < kanzure> O'Reilly 2006 is http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Biologically%20based%20computational%20models%20of%20high-level%20cognition.pdf
16:37 < fenn> man, the only animal that gives a flying fuck if someone is wrong on the internet
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16:50 < kanzure> "This system can be more flexible than other more static neural circuits because the gating signal can be completely independent of the content that is being gated. However, unlike a memory buffer in a standard digital computer, the PFC areas must learn slowly over time to be able to represent all the things that they can maintain, and other areas of the brain must similarly learn to decode both the content and role meaning of these PFC ...
16:50 < kanzure> ... representations. Thus, the dynamic variable binding operates in the context of the relatively more static learned..."
16:50 < kanzure> "The dynamic gating mechanisms work more like a post-office, with the basal ganglia reading the zip code of which PFC stripe to update, whereas the PFC cares more about the contents of the package. Furthermore, the binary rulelike representations in the PFC are more symbol-like. Thus, perhaps a fuller understanding of this synthesis of analog and digital computation will finally unlock the mysteries of human intelligence."
16:50 < kanzure> yes.. like a post office.... right.
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17:06 < fenn> brain analogies are terrible
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17:09 < fenn> .wik tectospinal
17:09 < fenn> .wik spinotectal
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18:25 < kanzure> "The top mosty likely existential threats, including "what the universe could do to Earth" would leave it more habitable than Mars. If "lifeboat for species" is the goal, then going to Mars is a solution in that direction but not a particularly good one - building an underground colony in Antarctica or a self-sustainable isolated underwater colony would achieve the goal better, be reachable quicker, and at a lower cost. However, ...
18:25 < kanzure> ... 'lifeboat for species' right now is not an explicit end goal for anyone who would be capable to fund that."
18:32 < fenn> underground _and_ in antarctica
18:33 < fenn> because one or the other isn't difficult enough
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18:41 < kanzure> "The BLS says the median salary for a lawyer is $112k."
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19:47 < kanzure> don't gorillas do sign language?
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19:55 < fenn> yes
19:56 < fenn> signs such as "give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you,"
19:56 < fenn> you get the gist but not the grammar
19:58 < kanzure> that doesn't sound too bad
19:58 < fenn>  "man bites dog" and "dog bites man" use the same set of words but because of their ordering will be understood by speakers of English as denoting very different meanings.
19:59 < fenn> weren't you reading the Nim Chimpsky article
19:59 < kanzure> english grammar sucks anyway
19:59 < fenn> sucks it does
19:59 < kanzure> they should be teaching gorilla einstein something like lojban
20:00 < kanzure> what's the lojban of hand signing?
20:00 < fenn> ASL :
20:00 < kanzure> https://www.zombiehunters.org/wiki/images/HandSignals.jpg
20:01 < fenn> that's not a particularly expressive language
20:03 < fenn> it's totally possible to conjugate verbs in a sign language too, obviating a lot of the grammar syntax ambiguity shown by apes
20:04 < kanzure> i wonder about listening
20:07 < kanzure> "Analysis of the gorilla genome has cast doubt on the idea that the rapid evolution of hearing genes gave rise to language in humans, as it also occurred in gorillas.[64]"
20:08 < fenn> "hearing genes"
20:08 < fenn> gonna settle in for a relaxing night of hi-fi listening, put on my hearing genes and sip on a mug of cocoa
20:09 < kanzure> pfft the paper for the whole genome sequence of some gorilla has only been cited 200 times
20:10 < fenn> citation is overrated
20:11 < fenn> what. "ASL users have never been counted by the American census."
20:12 < fenn> finding it hard to believe there are not more than 100,000 ASL users
20:13 < fenn> or 500k even
20:14 < fenn> lol "people from the South sign slower than people in the North"
20:14 < fenn> the heat, it burns
20:15 < kanzure> people in the south type slower too
20:16 < kanzure> wait...
20:16 < fenn> maybe it's just time dilation from the faster rotation of the earth at lower latitudes
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20:28 < kanzure> "religious follow-up with venture capital people" https://www.dropbox.com/s/axgpmehewplt7hs/Screenshot%202014-12-02%2019.39.10.png?dl=0
20:34 < fenn> looks very efficient and confidence boosting
20:34 < fenn> praise capitalism
20:35 < fenn> 28 steps to "yes"
20:35 < fenn> 28 simple steps anyone can do to raise money
20:36 < kanzure> right, so that's actually repeated 100x
20:36 < kanzure> at minimum
20:37 < kanzure> most initial rounds are anywhere from 20-100 commits
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20:37 < kanzure> so you have to consider the close rate... so uh, much more than 20. in parallel.
20:39 < fenn> what does "redlines" mean?
20:39 < fenn> is that just the terms of the contract?
20:41 < kanzure> you send .docx files back and forth
20:42 < kanzure> to propose particular wording of things
20:55 < kanzure> http://abcnews.go.com/Weird/wireStory/100-brains-missing-university-texas-27322422
20:56 < kanzure> "The University of Texas at Austin is missing about 100 brains - about half of the specimens the university had in a collection of brains preserved in jars of formaldehyde."
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