--- Day changed Thu Dec 04 2014 01:50 -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:13 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:23 < archels> I was just randomly wondering: how hard is it for a cubesat/picosat to escape high earth orbit and venture out into deep space? 02:24 < archels> do you need a sizeable rocket engine, or can you do it using some clever gravitational tricks? 02:25 -!- Boscop__ [me@46.246.87.61] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:28 -!- Boscop [me@46.246.87.61] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:28 -!- Boscop [me@46.246.87.61] has quit [Changing host] 02:28 -!- Boscop [me@unaffiliated/boscop] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:29 -!- Boscop_ [~me@46.246.87.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:31 -!- Boscop__ [me@46.246.87.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:54 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:58 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:01 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:14 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pclwuhzydybxhtum] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:17 < fenn> archels: http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/deltaveemap.html instead of wasting delta-v on circularizing your orbit, you can use it to increase the eccentricity instead and boost to hyperbolic transfer; this can be done with low-thrust high-isp propulsion, but there aren't yet any convenient large masses flying about in earth orbit to take advantage of 03:23 < archels> ah, alright 03:25 < fenn> this map is maybe more readable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v_budget#Delta-vs_between_Earth.2C_Moon_and_Mars 03:25 < archels> so space exploration with cubesats is not going to be feasible for a while 03:26 < fenn> it's the same "distance" from geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO) to circular geosynchronous orbit (GEO) as it is to lunar orbit 03:28 < fenn> i wouldn't say that small satellites have any particular disadvantage besides being able to do less 03:28 < fenn> either way you have to carry reaction mass and solar panels 03:29 < fenn> it's the same situation with migrating geese; the distance they fly depends on the energy density of fat 03:30 < archels> hehe, nice analogy 03:30 < fenn> it's about the same energy density and efficiency as jet fuel, so the range of a goose and a jet is similar 03:31 < archels> maybe a cubeset could in principle not carry enough propellant to escape earth's gravity well 03:31 < archels> even from HEO rather than LEO 03:32 < fenn> not according to any principles i know 03:33 < fenn> most "cubesat" or whatever don't have any propulsion at all though 03:35 < archels> yeah, I'm just wondering hypothetically 03:36 < chris_99> Can anyone recommend any cheap microfluidic places, the one i was looking at didn't have any chips < 100um deep, i've found the chip shop, but they don't seem to have any circular mixers in their catalogue 03:37 < archels> so let's say the delta-v budget is 2500 m/s... then according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation we need an exhaust velocity of 1800 m/s to free a 10 kg cubesat with 7.5 kg propellant on board 03:38 < archels> https://www.rocket.com/cubesat 03:39 < archels> "picture coming soon" 04:22 -!- fred1_ [80d3ab02@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.211.171.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:38 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:00 -!- weles [~mariusz@wsip-174-78-132-9.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:17 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pclwuhzydybxhtum] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 05:21 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-173-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:22 -!- yorick_ is now known as yorick 05:26 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined 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##hplusroadmap 07:18 -!- skyraider [uid41097@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tdgpxnyjuywkbgmf] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:20 < ybit> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/rein/ 07:20 < ybit> .title 07:20 < yoleaux> Decision-Making in Stem Cells - Microsoft Research 07:23 -!- upgrayeddd [uid2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tajeayjhnuhqgahp] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:27 -!- citizen11 [~citizen11@gateway/tor-sasl/citizen11] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:27 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-173-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:45 < kanzure> .title http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/08/22/brain.awu239 07:45 < yoleaux> A new case of complete primary cerebellar agenesis: clinical and imaging findings in a living patient | Brain 07:45 < kanzure> paperbot: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/08/22/brain.awu239 07:45 < paperbot> ConnectionError: HTTPConnectionPool(host='libgen.org', port=80): Max retries exceeded with url: /scimag/librarian/form.php (Caused by : [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer) (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/adapters.py", line 375, in send) 07:48 < kanzure> archels: did you have any opinions about http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4010745/ ? 08:04 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16 < archels> interesting theory, if a bit hyperbolic 08:17 < archels> the stuff about RAM and ROM, learning to walk on two legs--that type of imprinting is certainly not unique to humans, but seems to be a general strategy of the (neo)cortex 08:18 < archels> "However, comparative neurological studies demonstrate that the human brain does not contain any structures that are distinctly unique to humans. Rather, the brain has undergone expansion of pre-existing structures that have re-wired their connectivity (Mantini and Corbetta, 2013; Smaers and Soligo, 2013), leading to the creation of novel network architectures in the brain." 08:18 < archels> these two sentences contradict one another 08:18 -!- blueskin [~blueskin@unaffiliated/blueskin] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:19 -!- blueskin [~blueskin@unaffiliated/blueskin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:22 -!- d4de [~d4de@unaffiliated/d4de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:28 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:32 < kanzure> good catch 08:32 < kanzure> i guess it really depends on what your definition of "unique to the human brain" is 08:33 < kanzure> clearly there is some particular phenotype that is occurring here that is broadly applicable across each of the 7 billion human brains 08:33 < kanzure> also, do the evolutionary biologists know whether language began happening before or after bipedalism? 08:41 -!- fred1_ [80d3ab02@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.211.171.2] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 08:42 < archels> depends on their definition of language 08:51 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:52 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:59 -!- d4de [~d4de@197.160.166.234] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:59 -!- d4de [~d4de@197.160.166.234] has quit [Changing host] 08:59 -!- d4de [~d4de@unaffiliated/d4de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:04 -!- d4de [~d4de@unaffiliated/d4de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:18 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:44 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:51 -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@ps357888.dreamhost.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:06 < ybit> .title http://research.microsoft.com/apps/mobile/ShowPage.aspx?page=/en-us/projects/SBT/ 10:06 < yoleaux> Microsoft Research Mobile - Scenario-Based Tool for Biological Modeling 10:12 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bttorefxikmyuxkk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:20 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:21 -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D549A77D.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:33 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:46 < kanzure> i tried one of those readcube links and it crashed my browser :) 11:53 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.42] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:58 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-160-170-164.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-166-133-142.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:19 < kanzure> hal finney talking about detweiler (hah) http://web.archive.org/web/20130513051807/http://finney.org/~hal/is_a_person.html 12:20 < kanzure> for-pay remailers http://web.archive.org/web/20130513050640/http://finney.org/~hal/pay_remail.html 12:27 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-165-195.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:28 -!- Vutral [ZNLoEZboAB@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:28 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:44 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:51 -!- weles [~mariusz@wsip-174-78-132-9.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:52 -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D549A77D.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 12:56 -!- rk[1]_ is now known as rk[1] 13:01 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:16 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18 < kanzure> http://synbio.plos.org/2014/12/04/when-the-biohackers-arrive-at-igem/ 13:18 < kanzure> why are community labs considered diybio 13:20 < juri_> because weekend warriors putting together kits are concidered hackers. 13:20 < kanzure> so what? 13:21 < kanzure> they are not called "non-institutionally-affiliated institutionally-affiliated hackers" 13:34 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:35 -!- skyraider [uid41097@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tdgpxnyjuywkbgmf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:37 < nmz787_i> community labs seem like diybio to me 13:37 < nmz787_i> only because diybio to me means something more to do with self-determination 13:38 < nmz787_i> than institutional affiliation 13:38 < juri_> just like 'hacker' means 'doing something undocumented to try and advance technology' to me. 13:41 < kanzure> juri_: your comments don't make any sense at all. 13:42 < kanzure> yes it's true that different people have a different definition of hacker. so what? what does that have to do with this conversation? 13:42 < juri_> different people have a different definition of diybio. 13:42 < kanzure> nmz787_i: self-determination is generally incompatible with institutional determination 13:42 < kanzure> juri_: apparently not though. they don't even redefine it. they just use it carelessly. 13:42 < juri_> just like 'hacker'. 13:43 < kanzure> huh? many people have proposed definitions of hacker 13:43 < juri_> and many use it horribly. 13:44 < kanzure> most of those horrible uses have been defined, documented and generally refuted 13:45 < juri_> its an older term, that's the only difference i see. 13:46 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-165-195.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:46 < kanzure> anyway, let's assume that the word diybio has been hijacked 13:47 < kanzure> give me a name that is impossible to hijack 13:47 < kanzure> if you are unable to do this then you should be okay with me complaining about bad uses of words 13:47 -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@ps357888.dreamhost.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:47 < kanzure> you can't have it both ways 13:48 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:48 < juri_> oh, i'm good with you complaining. 13:49 < juri_> you asked a question. i answered it. :) 13:49 < kanzure> you answered it very poorly 13:50 < juri_> perhaps. 13:53 < nmz787_i> what is this site? (has some pdf that someone online posted) http://rghost.net/59411897 13:54 < kanzure> russian hate site 13:55 < kanzure> looks like something like megaupload or 0bin 14:05 -!- citizen11 [~citizen11@gateway/tor-sasl/citizen11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:05 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:07 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:10 < nmz787_i> "The production of lime for Roman concrete, however, is much cleaner, requiring temperatures that are two-thirds of that required for making Portland cement." 14:10 < nmz787_i> .title http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2013/06/04/roman-concrete/ 14:10 < yoleaux> To improve today’s concrete, do as the Romans did 14:12 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:12 < nmz787_i> " The not-so-secret ingredient is volcanic ash, which Romans combined with lime to form mortar. They packed this mortar and rock chunks into wooden molds immersed in seawater. Rather than battle the marine elements, Romans harnessed saltwater and made it an integral part of the concrete." 14:12 < nmz787_i> "So why did the use of Roman concrete decrease? “As the Roman Empire declined, and shipping declined, the need for the seawater concrete declined,” said Jackson. “You could also argue that the original structures were built so well that, once they were in place, they didn’t need to be replaced.”" 14:13 < nmz787_i> "While Roman concrete is durable, Monteiro said it is unlikely to replace modern concrete because it is not ideal for construction where faster hardening is needed." 14:14 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:14 < kragen> That's interesting! 14:14 < nmz787_i> "The research began with initial funding from King Abdullah University of Science and Technology in Saudi Arabia (KAUST), which launched a research partnership with UC Berkeley in 2008. Monteiro noted that Saudi Arabia has “mountains of volcanic ash” that could potentially be used in concrete." 14:15 < nmz787_i> oh kragen, I wanted to ask you if you knew about optical heterodyning? 14:15 < kragen> no. I've been interested in it and I might even have kragen-tolled about it 14:15 < kragen> but I don't know anything about it 14:16 < nmz787_i> something you said about RF heterodyning (about the nonlinear element) was similar to a comment someone else mentioned when I asked about this previously somewhere 14:16 < kragen> I mean the idea is simple enough: you feed a light wave through a nonlinear optical environment like the frequency-doubling crystals green lasers use, along with the signal you're trying to measure 14:17 < kragen> and you get back an electromagnetic signal of the difference between the frequencies 14:17 < kragen> but I don't even know if anyone has actually done this 14:17 < kragen> let alone what the best way to do it is 14:19 < kanzure> kragen: what would be the best way of estimating whether or not a certain amount of bandwidth or parallel-available-computation is required for human-like non-brain software to do human-like things? 14:19 < kragen> apparently someone has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_heterodyne_detection 14:20 < kragen> first, understand how human-like brains do human-like things 14:20 < kragen> the rest is easy 14:20 < kanzure> suppose you know how... i am not sure that would help. 14:25 < nmz787_i> kragen: yeah been done... should be same conceptually (and maybe mathematically) but using different system (you said a good nonlinear electronic element was what?) 14:25 < nmz787_i> kragen: reason being, optical filters for IR are damn expensive 14:26 < nmz787_i> kragen: so if you want to make an IR camera cheaper... maybe you can heterodyne it down to a visible freq that a cheaper detector can capture 14:26 < kragen> a typical way to do infrared spectroscopy is with Fourier-transform spectroscopy to avoid the need for optical filters 14:26 < nmz787_i> using multiple stages of say 1000nm lasers for the line input 14:26 < kragen> that's an interesting idea 14:26 < kragen> although 14:26 < kragen> visible light is actually higher frequency than IR, not lower 14:27 < nmz787_i> well in ftir you get a spectrum from a mixed source.... with this idea you want just a single band of that mixed source for the image signal 14:27 < kragen> I said that even a diode works well for electronic heterodyning 14:27 < kragen> but I don't actually know what typical radios use for a mixer 14:27 < nmz787_i> oh, yeah, meant down in wavelength 14:27 < kragen> .wik mixer electronics 14:27 < yoleaux> "An electronic mixer is a device that combines two or more electrical or electronic signals into one or two composite output signals. There are two basic circuits that both use the term mixer, but they are very different types of circuits: additive mixers and multiplicative mixers." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_mixer 14:28 < kragen> "The most popular are Gilbert cell mixers, diode mixers, diode ring mixers (ring modulation) and switching mixers" 14:28 < nmz787_i> ftir would still be interesting, but the output of the ftir section would still need downconverted to visible for cheaper detection 14:28 < nmz787_i> i think 14:28 < nmz787_i> i actually have an old ftir at home 14:28 < kragen> you mean upconverted 14:28 < nmz787_i> err 14:28 < nmz787_i> yea 14:28 < nmz787_i> :P 14:29 < nmz787_i> again thinking wavelength 14:29 < nmz787_i> the FTIR is quite large, due in part to including a footlong HeNe laser 14:30 < kragen> so I have this vague idea that anything with a nonunity refractive index will ultimately have nonlinear behavior in the limit as field strengths grow 14:31 < kragen> like, in the limit of high field strength, the refractive index must eventually go away, drop to unity 14:31 < kragen> I don't know if that's really true 14:31 < kragen> but I mean things normally have indices because of higher permeability, which is due to mobile charge carriers, which can only move so far before they start to be metallic 14:32 < kragen> and so at some point your permeability drops to ε₀, right? 14:32 < kragen> all of this is maybe irrelevant since apparently the usual way to do optical heterodyning is to use the surface of your photodiode as the mixer 14:34 < nmz787_i> hmm 14:34 < nmz787_i> somewhat beyond me, especially since I am at work now and can't think about it fully 14:34 < nmz787_i> but I could see a piece of glass with a doping gradient 14:34 < nmz787_i> maybe being what you mean 14:35 < kragen> or even just a piece of glass 14:35 < kragen> maybe a piece of glass in a strong, rapidly varying electrical field 14:35 < kragen> I guess I should learn more about nonlinear optics 14:56 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:04 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:05 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:18 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:32 -!- TheShadowFog [~TheShadow@2601:8:3e80:c:3465:987:b5c7:4475] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:59 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:16 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17 < archels> OpenWorm have a new paper out http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fncom.2014.00137/full 16:18 < kanzure> .title 16:18 < yoleaux> Frontiers | OpenWorm: an open-science approach to modeling Caenorhabditis elegans | Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience 16:18 < kanzure> paperbot: http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fncom.2014.00137/full 16:18 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.3389%2Ffncom.2014.00137 16:22 -!- TheShadowFog [~TheShadow@2601:8:3e80:c:3465:987:b5c7:4475] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:24 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:37 -!- rkos [~rkos@228.ip-176-31-189.eu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:57 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:02 -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:02 < ybit> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/heath/c93add4d88e6fef79889/raw/a550ea2aeacda975bdace12d0ff44985ceda800f/gistfile1.txt 17:03 < ybit> it isn't clear that this is 2% equity 17:04 < rkos> is papertbot working yet? 17:04 < ybit> paperbot: http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf 17:05 * ybit is just curious 17:05 < fenn> derp. i thought i had mirrored/backed up finney.org 17:09 < kanzure> looks like nobody did 17:09 < fenn> not sure what the motivation is for having "True Names" 17:10 < fenn> maybe gwern did http://lesswrong.com/lw/7kg/rationalist_sites_worth_archiving/ 17:11 < kanzure> when someone dies, fucking archive their site 17:11 < kanzure> which reminds me.... steve coles. 17:11 < kanzure> grg.org 17:12 < kanzure> "Coles served as a visiting scientist for the Central Intelligence Agency's Office of Research and Development in Washington, D.C.[citation needed] and published with Aubrey de Grey, Leonid Gavrilov, and Jay Olshansky.[15] He was the treasurer of the Supercentenarian Research Foundation,[16] as well as co-founder and current system administrator of the Gerontology Research Group.[17]" 17:14 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:18 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:21 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28 -!- RedMEdic [~RedMedic@CPE-69-23-98-42.new.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:30 < ParahSailin> the scrollback of esr in #lesswrong ranting about global warming being leftist creationism is pretty hilarious 17:31 < kanzure> he has done some good rants in his time 17:32 < RedMEdic> Is lesswrong still freaking out about a super computer from the future torturing them forever? 17:35 < kanzure> how'd i miss this one? https://github.com/kanzure/modelo/issues/5 17:35 < kanzure> cc dingo 17:36 < yorick> RedMEdic: this never actually happened, dammit 17:36 < yorick> RedMEdic: https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/2cm2eg/rokos_basilisk/cjjbqv1 17:37 < yorick> ParahSailin: yeah, when I woke up this morning I wouldn't have assigned a high probability to that happening 17:38 < fenn> if the future doesn't cause the past, why is discussion of roko's basilisk "forbidden" 17:38 < kanzure> i am pretty sure roko's basilisk is not the same thing i intended when i was mentioning steve's paralysis 17:38 < fenn> is this all some elaborate in-joke? 17:38 < kanzure> there's two separate things going on here 17:39 < kanzure> yorick thinks he knows the other one 17:39 < kanzure> fenn knows the one that yorick doesn't know 17:39 < kanzure> i seem to know both things 17:39 < RedMEdic> yorick Thats interesting 17:39 < RedMEdic> Kanzure 17:39 < RedMEdic> explain 17:39 < RedMEdic> because now Im confused 17:39 < yorick> kanzure, wat 17:39 < kanzure> oh, i guess there is evidence for fenn knowing both things 17:40 < yorick> kanzure: I was responding to RedMEdic, your mentionings of steve are long past 17:40 < fenn> .title http://www.jeremysryan.com/1/post/2013/05/the-forbidden-knowledge-of-rokos-basilisk.html 17:40 < yoleaux> The Forbidden Knowledge of Roko's Basilisk - Jeremy Scott Ryan 17:40 * fenn grumbles 17:41 < kanzure> "Roko's basilisk is a proposition that says an all-powerful artificial intelligence from the future may retroactively punish those who did not assist in bringing about its existence. It resembles a futurist version of Pascal's wager; an argument suggesting that people should take into account particular singularitarian ideas, or even donate money, by weighing up the prospect of punishment versus reward. Furthermore, the proposition says ... 17:41 < kanzure> ... that merely knowing about it incurs the risk of punishment." 17:41 < yorick> fenn: apparently if someone figures it out we're all tortured forever 17:41 < kanzure> i am not really sure that steve's version is at all related to retroactive punishment or a specific proposition 17:42 < kanzure> his version is more like "saying or not saying a thing in the present may cause an ai to become created that will do particularly bad things" 17:42 < lichen> this is sounding awfully close to a religion 17:42 < kanzure> "and then paralysis with evaluating those possibilities" 17:42 < lichen> give tithe to the church to reach heaven 17:42 < kanzure> "being careful about your current actions" is now a religion? 17:42 < lichen> no 17:42 < lichen> the 17:42 < lichen> donate money, by weighing up the prospect of punishment versus reward. 17:43 < fenn> hence the reference to pascal's wager 17:43 < lichen> yes 17:43 < kanzure> s/saying or not saying/doing or not doing 17:43 < fenn> .wik speech act 17:43 < yoleaux> "A speech act in linguistics and the philosophy of language is an utterance that has performative function in language and communication." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_act 17:44 < kanzure> s/may cause/may be more or less likely by some unknown amount to 17:44 < lichen> what incentive would such an ai have to punish actions before its exitence 17:44 < kanzure> s/may cause/may be more or less likely by some unknown amount to cause 17:44 < kanzure> incentives are a very human idea 17:44 < kanzure> uh, for the record i don't really care for this particular wager 17:44 < lichen> goal-oriented thinking and incentive to outside agents arent unthinkable though 17:45 < lichen> moral punishment is harder to justify 17:45 < fenn> it's not about moral punishent at all; you just invented that 17:45 < yorick> but the thing would have no incentive to actually do it, unless someone figures out a decision-theory thing that makes it do it anyways, in which case we're all doomed 17:45 < lichen> im asking what the reason would be 17:45 < lichen> to punish actions that happened before its inception 17:45 < lichen> beyond "revenge" 17:46 < yorick> lichen: to incentivise us taking different actions 17:46 < fenn> yorick: the thing (the ai) may be totally nuts by your rationalist standards 17:46 < lichen> but isnt that a choice between no ai and no punishment versus ai and punishment for some? 17:46 < RedMEdic> lichen: the AI is so advanced that it can accurately model your thoughts 17:46 < RedMEdic> and so 17:46 < yorick> lichen: yes, except someone *else* might make it 17:46 < RedMEdic> wait 17:46 < RedMEdic> no 17:46 < lichen> true 17:46 < lichen> sort of a prisoner's dilemma 17:46 < RedMEdic> Sorry 17:47 < RedMEdic> for a second Roccos Basilisk made perfect sense 17:47 < RedMEdic> and then my brain farted 17:47 < yorick> lichen: except if one guy defects that guy's in heaven and everyone else gets tortured forever 17:47 < kanzure> whole thing is a fart 17:47 < lichen> requires conspiracy of all of the actors to get the total no-punishment end 17:47 < fenn> the conspiracy of apathy 17:48 < yorick> if only nobody cared! wait 17:48 < lichen> once the ai exists however, what is the reason to continue spending energy on the punishments? 17:48 < fenn> i should write a SF novel about how nobody cared and nothing cool happened 17:48 < fenn> we just went on making reality TV forever 17:48 < lichen> isnt that kind of the subplot of blindsight 17:49 < yorick> lichen: because knowing it knows we'd know that means it has to torture is or there's no incentive 17:49 < lichen> its a trust issue then 17:49 < lichen> it only needs sufficient reason to trust (faith) that the punishment will be there and continue 17:50 < kanzure> why does lesswrong attract all this attention and thought 17:50 < yorick> lichen: I mean, the christian god punishes people forever, it gets away with that 17:50 < kanzure> i guess it's easier to think about "morality of future ai killing you" than sequencing a genome 17:50 < lichen> pretty sure the christian religion is having a hard time finding new converts 17:50 < fenn> this reminds me of mutually assured destruction; nobody ever actually nuked the world but it had real consequences anyway 17:50 < yorick> kanzure: note that nobody actually thinks about it that much 17:50 < kanzure> steve does 17:51 < lichen> its a mental puzzle 17:51 < kanzure> i would guess maybe constantly 17:51 < kanzure> that's why i called it a paralysis 17:51 < lichen> sequencing the genome takes tons of dedicated work and study 17:51 < kanzure> yes 17:51 < kanzure> so do answers to questions about ai 17:51 < lichen> different scale of problem 17:51 < kanzure> i would argue genome sequencing is easier 17:51 < fenn> non-sequitur 17:51 < fenn> p != np 17:52 < yorick> kanzure: but the real question is, will thinking about genome sequencing instead of ai torture save you from ai torture? 17:52 < kanzure> fenn, what would a really really slow or arbitrarily slow human-like general intelligence manifest as? assume it is not just a time-step delay, but that it in fact gets "practically real-time" input/sensory data. and that it can behave while doing whatever slow human-like general intelligence stuff. 17:53 < fenn> probably not; there are a near infinite number of different reasons for an ai to want to torture you; gene sequencing may be one of them 17:53 < lichen> i have no mouth and i must quibble about hypothetical ai deals 17:54 < kanzure> i have not really seen too many "actually slow" human-like general intelligence implementations ever 17:55 < fenn> kanzure: it would be like running sim city on "fast"? cars and planes and people and clouds would be flying around really fast and suddenly things have happened and/or everyone ignores you or you get a torrent of information 17:55 < kanzure> when you say someone is slow, you very often don't mean literally slow. they can still do many things at normal human speed. 17:55 < kanzure> well, so the most obvious way to run a slow human brain would be to give it input at a rate proportional to the speed that neurons are operating at for whatever simulation-time is... but that's not what i mean.. 17:55 < kanzure> oh i didn't mean the internal viewpoint 17:55 < kanzure> i meant external 17:56 < fenn> it would literally move slowly unless its motor control was under some faster subprocess 17:56 < kanzure> right, and then responses or discussion would probably just happen randomly? 17:56 < kanzure> like a few weeks later, "i have now thought about what my favorite color is, and it is red" 17:56 < kanzure> i don't know. 17:57 < kanzure> that's not something that we see in humans 17:57 < kanzure> they will just forget or something 17:57 < lichen> would guess it would depend on how it keeps track of information subprocesses, short-term memory 17:57 < lichen> thought fixation 17:58 < fenn> the Mailman in True Names was like this 17:58 < fenn> it didn't even bother with controlling a body though 17:58 < kanzure> well, why doesn't that happen in humans though? even the ones with abnormal brains? 17:58 < kanzure> it would seem that certain ideas are only attainable after some amount of "thinking" or "processing" 17:58 < lichen> ive known people who act like that 17:58 < fenn> it does, in cases of viral encephalitis that destroy dopaminergic neurons. haven't you seen "awakenings"? 17:58 < kanzure> and presumably if you have some software, it has different performance on low-end hardware compared to high-end hardware 17:59 < kanzure> so some general-intelligence-related software would operate differently on those hardware options 17:59 < kanzure> (unless you were doing simulation-based time-lock-step stuff) 17:59 < kanzure> no 18:01 < fenn> not the movie but related: 18:01 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/QNum0dTYalk 18:01 < yoleaux> Encephalitis Lethargica Awakenings Oliver Sacks with text - YouTube 18:03 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:03 < kanzure> why is he swaying 18:03 < kanzure> is that how news happens 18:06 < fenn> "great dignity" 18:08 < fenn> holy crap 5 million people died of this disease 18:08 < lichen> how have i never even heard of this disease 18:10 < kanzure> "screw you guys i am going back to 1926" 18:11 < fenn> the movie is pretty cool and adds a lot to this news story 18:12 < fenn> in particular i'm remembering a scene where the lady is standing in the middle of the room and a visitor is watching her, asking "so she just stands there all day?" and sacks says "no, she's walking to the drinking fountain" and they watch for a half hour as she makes a couple steps towards the fountain 18:14 < kanzure> hm. 18:15 < kanzure> "There is also some evidence of an autoimmune origin with antibodies (IgG) from patients with encephalitis lethargica binding to neurons in the basal ganglia and mid-brain. Western immunoblotting showed that 95% of encephalitis lethargica patients had autoantibodies reactive against human basal ganglia antigens. By contrast, antibodies reactive against the basal ganglia were found in only 2-4% of child and adult controls (n = 173, P < ... 18:15 < kanzure> ... 0.0001).[4]" 18:16 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:16 < fenn> yeah says elsewhere in the article that the 1918 flu might have triggered the autoimmune reaction 18:16 < kanzure> paperbot: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/127/1/21.full 18:16 < kanzure> .title 18:16 < yoleaux> Encephalitis lethargica syndrome: 20 new cases and evidence of basal ganglia autoimmunity | Brain 18:16 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fbrain%2Fawh008 18:17 < kanzure> hehe google scholar pulls up a "[pdf] angelfire.com" link 18:17 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=13981480527920112646&hl=en&as_sdt=0,44 18:20 < fenn> "To maintain morale, wartime censors minimized early reports of illness and mortality in Germany, Britain, France, and the United States; but papers were free to report the epidemic's effects in neutral Spain, creating a false impression of Spain as especially hard hit—thus the pandemic's nickname Spanish flu." 18:22 < fenn> "17 million died in India, about 5% of the population" 18:26 < fenn> "The deaths caused by the flu may have been overlooked due to the large numbers of deaths of young men in the war or as a result of injuries. When people read the obituaries, they saw the war or postwar deaths and the deaths from the influenza side by side. Particularly in Europe, where the war's toll was extremely high, the flu may not have had a great, separate, psychological impact, or may 18:26 < fenn> have seemed a mere extension of the war's tragedies." 18:27 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bttorefxikmyuxkk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:27 < kanzure> oh right, so here's an interesting definition of human-like intelligence, 18:28 < kanzure> for the same number of repetitions it taks a child to learn something, given equivalent histories of input and responses, a human-like general intelligence should perform approximately as well as a human child or baby or something 18:29 < kanzure> thankfully this is useless since you an't guarantee equivalent histories of inputs and responses 18:29 < kanzure> *can't 18:29 < fenn> but learning is not just about being exposed to data; it requires active participation and making choices about hypotheses to test 18:29 < kanzure> certainly 18:29 < fenn> also i think it's stupid to compare non-human whatever to human babies 18:30 < kanzure> just as you would expect to be able to mentally replace any kid in some scenario with another equivalently aged kid, you should be able to expect to do the same with general intelligence 18:30 < kanzure> yes it's probably stupid to do that 18:30 < fenn> since intelligence levels off at 15 we can assume that the differences are simply due to the machine not being fully ready to function since it's not fully constructed 18:30 < kanzure> but it's a little strange how underspecified reports of are monkey intelligence, specifically how they don't specify whether or not an upbringing was similar to that of a human child 18:32 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:32 < fenn> a) wrt intelligence, it doesn't matter much how humans were raised, and b) they have done experiments raising monkeys in a human family, i.e. Nim Chimpsky 18:32 < kanzure> wait they really named one nim chimpsky? 18:32 < fenn> er, was it washoe 18:32 < kanzure> .wik nim chimpsky 18:32 < yoleaux> "Nim Chimpsky (November 19, 1973 – March 10, 2000) was a chimpanzee who was the subject of an extended study of animal language acquisition (codenamed 6.001) at Columbia University, led by Herbert S. Terrace; the linguistic analysis was led by the psycholinguist Thomas Bever." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim_Chimpsky 18:32 < kanzure> huh 18:33 < fenn> "chimpanzee was raised like a human child. Washoe was given affection and participated in everyday social activity with her adoptive family. Her ability to communicate was far more developed than Nim's. Washoe lived 24 hours a day with her human family from birth. Nim at 2 weeks old was raised by a family in a home environment by human surrogate parents" 18:33 < kanzure> "codenamed 6.001", wtf they named it after SICP? 18:34 < fenn> project 6501 18:34 < kanzure> project sesame street 18:34 < fenn> we raised a microcontroller as a human child from birth, giving it affection and encouragement to participate in everyday social activity with the adoptive family 18:36 < kanzure> rip http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hd3IB-CKoaw/S7wFXNtboWI/AAAAAAAABs8/pkc9dFwnY4c/s1600/eIMG_0294.jpg 18:36 < fenn> chip abuse!!! 18:36 < fenn> goodbye, nim chipsky 18:36 < kanzure> nym chipsky 18:37 < fenn> do you think that would pass the google/facebook "real names" policy 18:38 < fenn> oh they finally saw the light 18:38 < kanzure> someone should make a linkedin profile for a chimp 18:39 < kanzure> http://www.shutterbug.com/images/1012gagne02.jpg 18:40 < kanzure> i think the "cognitive control loop" thing looks probably right 18:40 < kanzure> i am not aware of much evidence of it being wrong or broken 18:41 < kanzure> so maybe given enough long-term storage and if you wait long enough it will do things that seem to be evidence of general intelligence 18:41 < kanzure> *wait long enough while running it 18:43 < kanzure> although now that i think about it, i can't think of any experiments or concepts that could prove it's totally wrong 18:43 < kanzure> and i don't like ideas that can't be refuted. 18:43 -!- RedMEdic [~RedMedic@CPE-69-23-98-42.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:43 < fenn> what are you talking about 18:45 < kanzure> page 4 figure 2 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Biologically%20based%20computational%20models%20of%20high-level%20cognition.pdf 18:45 < kanzure> page 3 figure 3 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf 18:45 < kanzure> page 6 figure 4 of http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1008/1008.5161v1.pdf 18:48 < fenn> those figures should probably be shown side by side 18:49 < fenn> is john burger part of o'reilly's group? 18:49 < kanzure> nope just some random 18:49 < kanzure> i haven't evaluated his other ideas 18:51 < kanzure> his concept of short term memory is a little weird, he probably means working memory 18:56 < fenn> "The Nim Chimpsky project failed in its attempt to replicate the results of Washoe. This failure is attributed to poor teaching, and to Nim being consistently isolated in a sterile laboratory environment, and often confined in cages, for his entire life. Nim did most of his learning in a white eight-by-eight laboratory room (with one of the walls containing a one-way mirror), where he was often 18:56 < fenn> trained to use signs without the referent present. Living in this setting, Nim did not receive the same level of nurturing, affection, and life experience, and many have suggested that this impaired his cognitive development, as happens with human children subjected to such an environment." 18:57 < fenn> i hadn't considered the possibility that they did everything in an empty white featureless room 18:58 < fenn> who the hell comes up with these experiments 18:58 < kanzure> "nurting and affection" can happen in a single room, so they are idiots for mentioning that 18:58 -!- RedMEdic [~RedMedic@CPE-69-23-98-42.new.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:58 < kanzure> arguably nurting and affection don't matter compared to the problems of a single room 18:58 < fenn> yes but it didn't happen 18:58 < kanzure> *nurturing 18:58 < kanzure> oh sure just praise him enough that'll help 19:00 < fenn> "Terrace and his colleagues aimed to use more thorough experimental techniques" 19:01 < fenn> Terrace sounds like a bad father 19:02 < fenn> and a bad scientist 19:02 < fenn> "Terrace ... was skeptical of Project Washoe and, according to the critics, went to great lengths to discredit it." 19:03 < fenn> "we failed to replicate the experiment after following a completely different protocol" 19:07 < fenn> i don't really get how people can say "animals don't have language" when i can say to my cat "go get your mouse" and she'll run off and fetch the toy mouse. what else is language but communicating by voice 19:07 < fenn> grammar is just a feature of a particular protocol 19:08 < kanzure> welp maybe you'll just have to raise your own chimp 19:08 < fenn> i'd rather not 19:12 < kanzure> i suppose it is impossible to make general intelligence as long as it is poorly defined 19:13 < fenn> no it makes it easier *nyah* 19:13 < kanzure> and impossible to evaluate ideas against said non-existing definition 19:13 < fenn> "not even wrong" 19:14 < kanzure> then how do you propose evaluating things like those control loop diagrams for whether or not they would make for an interesting or useful system with human-like brain-like abilities? 19:14 < fenn> by implementing them and see what happens 19:14 < nmz787> there is an ape research facility like 5 miles from here. my gf's colleague's grandfather started it, and he grew up on the property at some point for some time during his childhood. 19:15 < kanzure> "seeing what happens" is a bad strategy because you will never have a good limit for when you should stop using a particular technique or design 19:15 < fenn> kanzure: it's sort of like the halting problem; you can't predict what a program will do unless you run it 19:15 < kanzure> "continue to devote 100% of your resources to everything until one option turns out better than the rest" is a bad strategy, because you can't overallocate 19:16 < kanzure> the halting problem wasn't about predicting what a program will do, what the fuck 19:16 < kanzure> .wik halting problem 19:16 < yoleaux> "In computability theory, the halting problem is the problem of determining, from a description of an arbitrary computer program and an input, whether the program will finish running or continue to run forever." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem 19:16 < fenn> on the formal undecidability of allocating resources for brain-like systems 19:17 < kanzure> except they are somewhat decidable 19:17 < kanzure> for example, a system with 100 gigs of ram and no software will not do human-like general intelligence 19:17 < kanzure> how can i know this? must be magic 19:18 < fenn> it could be experiencing qualia and you not know it 19:18 < kanzure> i wouldn't are 19:18 < kanzure> *care 19:18 < fenn> that's racist! 19:18 < kanzure> i'm also not a vegetarian 19:18 < fenn> so, uh, in absence of a definition how do you decide anything at all 19:19 < kanzure> wasn't that calxism 19:19 < fenn> "i know it when i see it" isn't the best answer, but it's an answer 19:19 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@128.193.8.152] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:20 < fenn> "The halting problem is an important undecidable decision problem; for more examples, see list of undecidable problems." 19:20 < kanzure> i wonder if anyone has put a kid under an fmri to look at what's going on when they are attempting to make walking movements 19:20 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_undecidable_problems 19:22 < fenn> don't look at that page too long 19:22 < kanzure> wait, were those "automaticity" authors arguing that young humans figure out walking with neocortex matter first, and then commit that to memory, or that in evolutionary history that may have happened but now the neocortex is not involved in learning to walk? 19:23 < fenn> i'm pretty sure the neocortex is involved in learning to walk 19:24 < fenn> also i think it's the "doing" that commits it to automatic memory (cerebellum) 19:25 < kanzure> walking sounds like an okay test then 19:25 < fenn> you could learn to walk, and then immediately get hit by a bus and never walk again, and then be healed many years later and not know how to walk 19:25 < kanzure> and it can't be a bipedal walking-specific algorithm or system thingy 19:25 < kanzure> that is cheating 19:25 < fenn> vs a person who learned to walk, then walked for many years, was hit by a bus, healed, and remembered immediately how to walk ("like riding a bicycle") 19:26 < fenn> it turns out a lot of the dynamics of walking are simply encoded in the human physical structure as pendulum masses and reflexes 19:27 < fenn> watch movies http://ruina.tam.cornell.edu/research/topics/locomotion_and_robotics/3d_passive_dynamic/index.php 19:28 < kanzure> does it fall like a human tends to when learning? 19:28 < fenn> no motors or anything, just hinges and a tilted plane 19:28 < fenn> it just falls, it's not like BigDog 19:29 < kanzure> p. sure big dog is using an algorithm of some very specific kind 19:29 < fenn> and we'll never know what that algorithm is 19:29 < kanzure> matt (3scan matt) knows, iirc 19:29 < kanzure> or at least a practically equivalent version 19:29 < kanzure> actually i'm surprised you don't, given some similarities to dynamic balancing and kinematics 19:30 < fenn> i've read some stuff about predicting motion in "wrench space" 19:30 < kanzure> is wrench space about wrenches 19:30 < fenn> bigdog has a lot of fancy computer vision and path planning that i don't really understand 19:31 < fenn> wrench space is the set of possible torques and positions of a robot's joints 19:31 < kanzure> "Passive-dynamic walkers are simple mechanical devices, composed of solid parts connected by joints, that walk stably down a slope. They have no motors or controllers, yet can have remarkably humanlike motions. This suggests that these machines are useful models of human locomotion; however, they cannot walk on level ground" 19:31 < kanzure> my one fatal flaw 19:31 < ybit> http://syntheticneurobiology.org/classes/ 19:31 < fenn> they can walk on level ground if you add energy 19:32 < ybit> ripple partners with earthport https://ripple.com/ripple-labs-earthport-announce-global-partnership/ 19:32 < kanzure> don't even bother with ripple 19:32 < kanzure> they changed their architecture and now it's not really distributd consensus 19:32 < kanzure> https://wiki.ripple.com/Consensus#More_Details 19:32 < kanzure> https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7801 19:33 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144471.0 19:33 < kanzure> and if you aren't going to be doing distributed consensus then what's the point of all that extra code? 19:33 < ybit> damn 19:33 < kanzure> and marketing >:( 19:33 < kanzure> banks sure do love them some ripple though 19:33 < ybit> thanks for the links 19:33 < ybit> antha language: "programming language for biology" 19:33 < ybit> https://github.com/antha-lang 19:34 < ybit> http://www.antha-lang.org/ 19:35 < ybit> using web components / google's polymer theme to make it look shiny 19:35 < ybit> er material design theme 19:35 < fenn> i use your CSS to decorate my bit bucket 19:35 < RedMEdic> The hell 19:36 < RedMEdic> How does that work 19:36 < ybit> "An Antha protocol is intended to define the series of operations to be performed on a 19:36 < ybit> single experimental sample. These samples can be replicated or run with varying parameter 19:36 < ybit> values to define a larger-scale experiment. " 19:36 < fenn> RedMEdic: be extremely skeptical of claims made about synthetic biology software 19:36 < ybit> it's a language for defining protocols 19:37 < kanzure> gross, visual workflows 19:37 < kanzure> "Gene -> IN OrderGene(ProviderOfChoice)" 19:37 < kanzure> oh come on this is ridiculous 19:37 < kanzure> they should feel bad about themselves 19:37 < RedMEdic> Yeah 19:37 < kanzure> i'd even take https://www.transcriptic.com/platform/ over this 19:38 < fenn> it's backwards from any normal object-oriented syntax, which would be provider.order_gene(gene) 19:38 < ybit> i don't like antha's syntax 19:39 < fenn> presumably it's to make it visually similar to their pipes diagram DAG thingy 19:40 < kanzure> jonathan cline should release his plain english protocol lexer 19:40 < kanzure> "no way guys i am going to keep it a secret and get rich by doing nothing" 19:40 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20130513045337/http://finney.org/~hal/anti_observers.html "I wish Chaum and his group would stop directing their efforts towards protocols which require an observer chip to be effective. Granted, there are some things that don't work as nicely without observers. But I think that a realistic appraisal of the pros and cons suggests that non-observer protocols are more likely to further our ultimate goal of ... 19:40 < kanzure> ... personal privacy." 19:41 < fenn> was that just stuck in your brain-queue? 19:41 < kanzure> some open tabs 19:41 < fenn> PFC.sleep(1000); hand.emit(finneystuff) 19:41 < kanzure> here he is talking about detweiler http://web.archive.org/web/20130513051807/http://finney.org/~hal/is_a_person.html 19:42 < ybit> something to maybe look at later: https://github.com/codius/codius/wiki/Smart-Oracles:-A-Simple,-Powerful-Approach-to-Smart-Contracts 19:42 < ybit> unfortunately antha was featured on oreilly 19:42 < fenn> why should i care about detweiler and what does it have to do with anyting? 19:42 < kanzure> "There could be more than one credentialling agency, but they would all share a database of thumbprints or whatever." this idea is bad 19:42 < kanzure> well because detweiler is hilarious 19:42 < fenn> of course it's bad 19:43 < kanzure> he's the satoshi nakamoto whistleblowing time traveler 19:43 < kanzure> the gloriously stereotypical usenet schizophrenic wacko 19:43 < fenn> huh? 19:43 < kanzure> you haven't been paying attention have you 19:43 < RedMEdic> People are still taking biometric security seriously? 19:44 < fenn> i havent read the backlogs for today.. 19:44 < kanzure> http://borg.uu3.net/ldetweil/medusa/medusa.html 19:44 < kanzure> "L.D. believed that "Nick Szabo" (szabo@netcom.com) was a "tentacle" or a front for various cryptoanarchists to post from. L.D. dissects an actual Szabo post here under the S.Boxx pseudonym, but misattributed it to J.Gilmore in a typical mischievous mood. The references to untraceable digital cash are classic cypherpunk. The pornography allusions are rarer but tie in with the T.C.May pornography post above." 19:44 < fenn> yeah i don't care 19:44 < fenn> wild conspiracy theories that are trivially testable 19:45 < kanzure> yeah but they are extra funny because these same people are caught up in another layer of very similar modern-day conspiracy theories 19:46 < kanzure> for-pay remailers http://web.archive.org/web/20130513050640/http://finney.org/~hal/pay_remail.html 19:46 < kanzure> "why remailers" http://web.archive.org/web/20120216180743/http://finney.org/~hal/why_rem1.html http://web.archive.org/web/20130513043044/http://finney.org/~hal/why_rem2.html 19:46 < fenn> satoshi nakamoto doesn't try very hard to pretend to be a real person 19:46 < kanzure> "(The Cypherpunk vision includes a world in which literally hundreds or thousands of such remailers operate. Mail could be bounced through dozens of these services, mixing in with tens of thousands of other messages, re-encrypted at each step of the way. This should make traffic analysis virtually impossible. By sending periodic dummy messages which just get swallowed up at some step, people can even disguise when they are communicating.)" 19:46 < kanzure> fenn: and why should he? 19:47 < kanzure> i mean why should he be obligated to pretend to be a real person? 19:47 < fenn> i'm not arguing that 19:47 < fenn> what i mean is detweiler is accusing supposedly real people of being nyms 19:47 < fenn> nakamoto is actually a pseudonym 19:47 < fenn> i mean, is not pretending to be a real person, so must be a pseudonym 19:47 < kanzure> i thought there was evidence that "wei dai" is also a pseudonym 19:48 < kanzure> who the hell names their kid "grave danger", come on 19:48 < fenn> wei dai is pretending to be a person 19:48 < fenn> also google translate doesn't work on names 19:48 < fenn> and you're a moron for thinking that it does 19:48 < kanzure> wei dai posted "grave danger" himself 19:48 < fenn> so, uh, in wacko conspiracy-land wei dai is the long lost rayhawk brother? 19:49 < fenn> time traveling emulated clone of ai descendant 19:49 < kanzure> well, detweiler's conspiracies were about nick szabo 19:49 < kanzure> and a handful of others like hal finney 19:49 < kanzure> but not wei dai (or at least, not anyone identifying as wei dai) 19:50 < RedMEdic> What in the everliving fuck are you guys talking about 19:50 < RedMEdic> Something about time traveling usenet trolls 19:51 < kanzure> usenet is pretty fucking magical 19:51 < RedMEdic> I wasnt aware usenet still existed 19:51 < kanzure> nah this all happened in the 80s and 90s 19:52 < fenn> from wei dai's AMA: "Q: Have you used other pseudonyms online? Are you Szabo? A: I've used pseudonyms only on rare (probably less than 10) occasions. I'm not Szabo but coincidentally we attended the same university and had the same major and graduated within a couple years of each other. Theoretically we could have seen each other on campus but I don't think we ever spoke in real life." 19:52 < jrayhawk> that's just what he *wants* you to think 19:52 < RedMEdic> The best usenets were the furry ones 19:53 < RedMEdic> Like that one weird guy who stalked a tiny toons voice actress 19:54 < kanzure> "Coming up with bitcoin required someone who, a) thought about money on a deep level, and b) learnt the tools of cryptography, c) had the idea that something like Bitcoin is possible, d) was motivated enough to develop the idea into something practical, e) was technically skilled enough to make it secure, f) had enough social skills to build and grow a community around it. The number of people who even had a), b) and c) was really small ... 19:54 < kanzure> ... -- ie, just Nick Szabo and me -- so I'd say not many people could have done all these things." 19:55 < catern> fenn: that doesn't sound coincidental 19:55 < catern> perhaps there was something in the water at the time 19:55 < kanzure> i think the set is a bit larger than just wei dai and nick szabo though 19:55 < catern> at that university 19:55 < kanzure> vernor vinge books laying around 19:55 < kanzure> that would do it 19:56 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:e47a:2dfa:8da9:f4a5] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:57 < kanzure> "Satoshi is first and foremost a coder, not a writer. Szabo is a writer first and coder second." 19:58 < fenn> yep 19:58 < fenn> i'm actually surprised satoshi and szabo were mutually unaware of each other's ideas 19:58 < kanzure> szabo surely must have been unaware of satoshi because satoshi was being all secretive and not broadcasting ideas wildly 19:59 < fenn> ok but why wasnt satoshi aware of szabo 19:59 < fenn> if he knew about marc fawzi (ugh) 19:59 < kanzure> what a weird world 20:00 < fenn> maybe it's just a generation gap 20:00 < kanzure> "oh excuse me for not paying close attention to everything being said on the internet for the past 30 years, i might have missed one or two of you" 20:01 < fenn> cryptocurrency was not a very large field 20:01 < kanzure> "Also, I understand you haven't read the original bitcoind code but do you have any guess for why the author chose to lift your SHA256 implementation from Crypto++ when the project already required openssl-0.9.8h? Is there anything odd about the OpenSSL implementation that wouldn't be immediately obvious to someone who isn't a crypto expert?" 20:01 < kanzure> "Hmm, I’m not sure. I thought it might have been the optimizations I put into my SHA256 implementation in March 2009 (due to discussions on the NIST mailing list for standardizing SHA-3, about how fast SHA-2 really is), which made it the fastest available at the time, but it looks like Bitcoin 0.1 was already released prior to that (in Jan 2009) and therefore had my old code. Maybe someone could test if the old code was still faster ... 20:01 < kanzure> ... than OpenSSL?" 20:01 < kanzure> from http://lesswrong.com/lw/jgz/aalwa_ask_any_lesswronger_anything/apjk 20:02 < ybit> because hackernews isn't already enough to handle https://bit.ink/ 20:02 < ybit> and all its clones like this 20:02 < kanzure> honestly if you want cryptocurrency-related infobitz just read bitcointalk.org or #bitcoin 20:02 < fenn> #bitcoin is terrible SNR 20:03 < RedMEdic> heh 20:03 < kanzure> "our goal is to have a SNR slightly better than the US dollar" 20:03 < ybit> hmm, not enough posts to keep that site going, probably won't last 20:03 < RedMEdic> Met a RL bitcoin true believer once 20:03 < RedMEdic> "Its going to get adopted by a big bank and then..." 20:03 < fenn> and then what 20:04 < RedMEdic> and then the 1k he dumped into it will pay off 20:04 < ybit> https://cryptanalys.is/ is the better site 20:04 < RedMEdic> SPOILER:(It didnt) 20:04 < fenn> uh, okay, whatever 20:04 < fenn> speculation isn't the point 20:04 < fenn> price speculation i mean 20:05 < kanzure> use #bitcoin-pricetalk for price speculation 20:05 < kanzure> i don't undestand what your story about a friend selling his bitcoin has to do with anything 20:05 < kanzure> or big banks for that matter 20:06 < fenn> kanzure: redmedic is just totally clueless that's all 20:06 < fenn> no offense, it's hard to a) learn how this works b) predict the future and c) decide to care 20:06 < fenn> not necessarily in that order 20:06 < RedMEdic> This is true 20:07 < RedMEdic> Sorry, just went off on a tangent 20:07 < fenn> kanzure is guilty of more bitcoin tangents than you will ever be capable of 20:08 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@128.193.8.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:08 < kanzure> i have made the maximum tangent 20:09 < fenn> IRC law on the blockchain; labeling trolls for great justice 20:09 < ybit> "There are some alt coins hoping to decentralise and simplify tipping " 20:09 < ybit> I want to know which currencies these are 20:09 < kanzure> i have never proposed irc law on blockchains 20:09 < fenn> ybit: dogecoin, litecoin 20:09 < ybit> dogecoin simplifies tipping? 20:09 * fenn shrugs 20:10 < kanzure> not particularly 20:10 < ybit> dogecoin seems to just be a copy of everything out there..with a dog 20:10 < RedMEdic> fedora tipping? 20:10 < kanzure> dogecoin is definitely a copy 20:10 * fenn tips toward you respectfully 20:10 < fenn> oh i did it wrong 20:10 < kanzure> although oddly enough dogecoin has a bunch of bitcoin-qt devs willing to work on their fork 20:10 * fenn tips respectfully toward you 20:11 < kanzure> "It's Chinese Pinyin romanization, so pronounced "way dye"." aww hell 20:11 < fenn> how did you think it was pronounced? 20:12 < kanzure> the other way 20:12 < catern> wee dee 20:12 < fenn> weeeee 20:12 < fenn> (the d is silent) 20:12 < kanzure> (wey/way day) 20:13 < fenn> man has all that anime been for nothing 20:13 < RedMEdic> weegeee 20:13 < kanzure> hm "I'm worried that I may just be anchoring off of your two numbers, but I think 10^3 is a decent estimate. There are upwards of a thousand people at NIPS and ICML (two of the main machine learning conferences), only a fraction of those people are necessarily interested in the "human-level" AI vision, but also there are many people who are in the field who don't go to these conferences in any given year. Also many people in natural ... 20:13 < kanzure> ... language processing and computer vision may be interested in these problems, and I recently found out that the program analysis community cares about at least some questions that 40 years ago would have been classified under AI. So the number is hard to estimate but 10^3 might be a rough order of magnitude. I expect to find more communities in the future that I either wasn't aware of or didn't think of as being AI-relevant, and who ... 20:13 < kanzure> ... turn out to be working on problems that are important to me." 20:13 < RedMEdic> Moshi Moshi desu~ ^_^ 20:14 < nmz787> ppl be scurred to get upgrayyded 20:14 < fenn> "vision" collision 20:17 < fenn> "Tim May who besides inspiring me with his vision of cryptoanarchy was also a role model for doing early retirement from the tech industry and working on his own interests/causes." is tim's own interest/cause the cypherpunks mailing list? 20:20 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_C._May 20:21 < kanzure> .wik timothy c. may 20:21 < yoleaux> "Timothy C. May, better known as Tim May, is a technical and political writer, and was an electronic engineer and senior scientist at Intel in the company's early history. He is retired as of 2003[update]." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_C._May 20:21 < fenn> i don't see the [update] 20:21 < ybit> .title http://online.wsj.com/articles/how-the-brain-uses-glucose-to-fuel-self-control-1417618996 20:21 < yoleaux> How the Brain Uses Glucose to Fuel Self-Control - WSJ 20:22 < kanzure> "and his essay "True Nyms and Crypto Anarchy" was included in a reprint of Vernor Vinge's novel True Names." 20:22 < kanzure> "He is retired {{As of|2003|lc=on}}." 20:22 < ybit> .title http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/04/15/301780516/voodoo-dolls-prove-it-hunger-makes-couples-turn-on-each-other 20:22 < yoleaux> Voodoo Dolls Prove It: Hunger Makes Couples Turn On Each Other : Shots - Health News : NPR 20:22 < fenn> how can a person like this not have a personal web page? 20:22 < ybit> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/04/09/1400619111 20:23 < ybit> .title 20:23 < yoleaux> Low glucose relates to greater aggression in married couples 20:23 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1073%2Fpnas.1400619111 20:23 < kanzure> you're asking how a privacy advocate doesn't hae a webpage? 20:23 < kanzure> *have 20:23 < fenn> well it's not like we don't know his name 20:24 < kanzure> fenn's on to you better hide 20:24 < ybit> github is banned in russia: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opennet.ru%2Fopennews%2Fart.shtml%3Fnum%3D41171&edit-text= 20:24 < fenn> tim may i'm gonna get you 20:24 < fenn> no amount of usenet posting can save you now 20:25 < kanzure> he's probably just szabo anyway 20:25 < fenn> he is netochka nezvanova's father-husband 20:26 < ybit> https://twitter.com/NASA/status/539814651404754944 20:26 < ybit> We're sending humans to Mars! Watch our #JourneytoMars briefing live today at 12pm ET: http://www.nasa.gov/nasatv #Orion 20:26 < kanzure> sending humans is a dumb idea they should send robots 20:27 < RedMEdic> Wait 20:27 < RedMEdic> really 20:27 < RedMEdic> holy shit 20:27 < RedMEdic> hyped 20:27 < fenn> why do they keep saying "orion is going to mars" when it's obviously not designed to do that 20:28 < kanzure> and didn't the "mars in 20 years" stuff start in like 2003 or something 20:28 < kanzure> why is it still 20 years 20:28 < fenn> because we haven't discovered the secret of fusion yet 20:28 < fenn> "a spacecraft intended to carry a crew of up to 4 astronauts to destinations beyond-low Earth orbit (LEO)" 20:28 < RedMEdic> Kanzure: Yeah 20:29 < RedMEdic> Every few years shit gets really bad 20:29 < fenn> nothing about "for durations of two years" in there 20:29 < RedMEdic> and the president announces that were going to mars 20:29 < RedMEdic> It was Dubya who first said it 20:30 < fenn> i'm glad they developed something, i just dont get what it has to do with mars 20:30 < kanzure> so whenever they get their heads out of their asses about sending robots, 20:30 < kanzure> i think they should do robot personalities and personification 20:30 < kanzure> r2d2 didn't get famous by mistake 20:31 < kanzure> you could even have voice actors operating telerobotics at conferences and events even if it's totally fucking unrealistic that a rover would talk to a kid 20:31 < fenn> the ESA does that already 20:32 < kanzure> do they do that well? 20:32 < RedMEdic> + 20:32 < kanzure> ugh i hate that phrasing. i mean "are they good at it?" 20:34 < fenn> lookup error 20:34 < kanzure> get back to me in 37 days 20:35 * fenn sleeps for 3196800 seconds 20:35 < kanzure> that's cheating 20:36 < fenn> eric hunting posted some "rollin rick" robot something something it was blue and consumer friendly 20:37 < fenn> and i can't figure out what "EUROBOT" is 20:37 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:37 -!- maaku is now known as Guest37856 20:38 < fenn> wtf is with government websites and their 25 pixel wide images 20:38 -!- Guest37856 is now known as maaku 20:40 < fenn> fwiw http://www.esa.int/images/exoskeletondemo.gif 20:40 < fenn> "Telemanipulation with the use of the ESA Exoskeleton" 20:46 < fenn> this looks pretty cute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Space_Exploration_Vehicle_in-space_concept.jpg 20:46 -!- RedMEdic [~RedMedic@CPE-69-23-98-42.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:47 < kanzure> well, they could just lie about what they look like 20:47 < kanzure> and then they can make them as cute as they want 20:47 < fenn> "i swear there are humans inside" 20:47 < fenn> the real problem is control latency 20:47 < kanzure> "once in orbit, it sheds its cute exterior to let out its inner robot" 20:47 < fenn> mwahaha 20:48 < fenn> shredded hello kitty exterior burns upon reentry 20:48 -!- RedMEdic [~RedMedic@CPE-69-23-98-42.new.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:49 < fenn> mass 3 tons 20:49 < fenn> i'm always amazed by these numbers 20:49 < kanzure> did you see http://www.hitchbot.me/ 20:49 < fenn> does it really take 3 tons to provide life support for 2 20:49 < kanzure> someone made a hitchhiking robot 20:50 < kanzure> .title http://vimeo.com/100845249 20:50 < yoleaux> hitchBOT on Vimeo 20:51 < kanzure> hmm that's not the one i remember 20:51 < kanzure> one of them was tweeting regularly with bad jokes or something 20:51 < kanzure> "fuck that guy" etc 20:52 < fenn> suicide-inducing robot 20:52 < fenn> it would be so easy to just throw it into the middle of a highway 20:53 < kanzure> that's property damage man 20:53 < kanzure> thing has cameras 20:53 < fenn> i'm still miffed about sony killing QRIO 20:54 < kanzure> pfft "I remember being educated on the dangers of East German doping while in Berlin. They were pointing to examples of former athletes who had their lives permanently and dramatically changed by the doping done to them. The Germans who were telling me about them weren't saying this for the sake of propaganda. Their point was that East Germany's doping was lagging behind the West, from a technological point of view, so to keep up, they ... 20:54 < kanzure> ... had to take risks." 20:54 < kanzure> "Remember the 2008 Olympics? The Chinese used an ultra sonic system in their pools so the waves from each competitor would not interfere with each other." 20:55 < fenn> -_- 20:55 < kanzure> hmmm 20:55 < kanzure> yeah... 20:55 < fenn> "hey! no splashing!" 20:55 * fenn pulls out ultrasonic cannon 20:56 < fenn> "Before it was cancelled, QRIO was reported to be going through numerous development, testing and scalability phases, with the intent of becoming commercially available within three or four years." 20:56 < fenn> i never understood why it was cancelled 20:57 < RedMEdic> Fenn: Because Sony is in a financial death spiral 20:57 < RedMEdic> And that would be too much fun 20:58 < RedMEdic> the future is going to be nothing but Tablets and google glass 20:58 < fenn> glass is dead 20:59 < RedMEdic> Already? 20:59 < fenn> google killed it just as surely as google plus and google buzz 20:59 < RedMEdic> Never even heard of google buzz 20:59 < RedMEdic> and all I know about Plus is that its the reason I cant comment on youtube videos anymore 21:00 < fenn> http://en.akihabaranews.com/129508/robot/the-saddest-robots-in-japan-live-among-the-sins-of-sony 21:27 < nmz787> http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/ULN2003-per-element-die-annotation 21:34 < fenn> .wik REEM 21:34 < yoleaux> "REEM is the latest prototype humanoid robot built by PAL Robotics in Spain. It is a 1.70 m high humanoid robot with 22 degrees of freedom, with a mobile base with wheels, allowing it to move at 4 km/hour." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REEM 21:34 < fenn> REEM-C has legs and 44 DOF 21:34 < fenn> also it is totally not cute 21:35 < fenn> in a safeguard-like way 21:35 < kanzure> code review stuff http://www.arguingwithalgorithms.com/posts/14-12-02-architecture-reviews 21:43 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:e47a:2dfa:8da9:f4a5] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46 -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:48 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:52 -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:02 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:03 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:05 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:06 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:09 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:17 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:24 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:34 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:01 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:09 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:16 < fenn> there i fixed it: http://fennetic.net/irc/finney.org/~hal/home.html 23:24 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 23:24 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:25 -!- maaku is now known as Guest84438 23:37 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:43 < rkos> hey, can anyone get me this paper: http://cnc.sagepub.com/content/28/2/101.short ? 23:47 < ebowden> paperbot: http://cnc.sagepub.com/content/28/2/101.short 23:47 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1177%2F030981680408300105 23:48 < ebowden> rkos, try that link. ^ 23:48 < rkos> thanks very much! 23:48 < rkos> i thought paperbot wasnt working... great! 23:51 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:56 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap