--- Day changed Sun Dec 07 2014
00:02 < nmz787> http://www.phenom-world.com/electron-microscope
00:02 < nmz787> desktop SEM, no prices
00:03 < nmz787> "Elemental Mapping    Element selection 10 individual user-specified maps, plus backscatter image and mix-image"
00:03 < nmz787> http://www.phenom-world.com/electron-microscope/phenom-prox#specification_sheet
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05:19 < fenn> the Galapagos of Chinese “open” source. I call it “gongkai” (公开). Gongkai is the transliteration of “open” as applied to “open source”. I feel it deserves a term of its own, as the phenomenon has grown beyond the so-called “shanzhai” (山寨) and is becoming a self-sustaining innovation ecosystem of its own.
05:19 < fenn> .title http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3040
05:19 < yoleaux> The $12 Gongkai Phone « bunnie's blog
05:23 < fenn> kragen/lichen your $10 arduino is feeling jealous
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06:58 < bbrittain> people don't get enthused enough about crispr/cas
06:58 < bbrittain> this shit is so cool
06:59 < bbrittain> if only we could do this without RNA
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07:44 < FourFire> Greetings
07:45 < FourFire> would nyone care to discuss the graph presented here http://www.pandoras-brain.com/ ?
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08:12 < FourFire> Sorry I was disconneted for a bit, did I miss any responses?
08:12 < cuba> no
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09:03 < kanzure> does bunnie really not get the whole "open source is about licensing" thing? i find that hard to believe
09:09 < kanzure> .to nmz787 for processing images after decapping you would use https://github.com/nitram2342/degate
09:09 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to nmz787.
09:09 < chris_99> i've seen that before kanzure it looks nifty, also theres a program that decodes mask rom
09:11 < kanzure> is the mask rom decoder a different program?
09:11 < chris_99> yeah one sec
09:12 < chris_99> http://adamsblog.aperturelabs.com/2013/01/fun-with-masked-roms.html
09:17 < kanzure> https://github.com/ApertureLabsLtd/rompar
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09:44 < heath> https://github.com/SimonSapin/Frozen-Flask/
09:44 < heath> "Freezes a Flask application into a set of static files. The result can be hosted
09:44 < heath> without any server-side software other than a traditional web server.
09:44 < heath> "
09:44 < heath> this doesn't seem right at all :)
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10:06 < kanzure> "The triumph of Alfred Wegener's idea of continental drift came around 1960."
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10:09 < kanzure> "However, modern Homo sapiens have a brain volume slightly smaller (1250 cm3) than neanderthals, and the Flores hominids (Homo floresiensis), nicknamed hobbits, had a cranial capacity of about 380 cm3 (considered small for a chimpanzee) about a third of that of H. erectus. It is proposed that they evolved from H. erectus as a case of insular dwarfism. With their three times smaller brain the Flores hominids apparently used fire and made ...
10:09 < kanzure> ... tools as sophisticated as those of their ancestor H.erectus. In this case, it seems that for intelligence, the structure of the brain is more important than its volume.[citation needed]"
10:10 < kanzure> ah here's some interesting things http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipedalism#Evolution_of_human_bipedalism
10:23 < kanzure> i wonder if chromosomes are a good idea for software systems
10:24 < kanzure> because for any allele with an adaptive value, you have to account for the disastrous effects of any net-negative allele on the same chromosome
10:26 < kanzure> and any net-zero freeloaders are useful for scenarios like "there's no way to figure out cause/effect at transmission time"
10:36 < nmz787> kanzure: ya I remember seeing that, it probably could use some extension for increased automation... I am not sure how thick and how much area each slice of a common microcontroller would even be... could be way too much work for a single sane person
10:36 < yoleaux> 17:09Z <kanzure> nmz787: for processing images after decapping you would use https://github.com/nitram2342/degate
10:36 < nmz787> (to assist with semi-manual segmentation)
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11:30 < kragen> fenn: that phone is very impressive
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11:41 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tierra_(computer_simulation)
11:41 < kanzure> this looks okay although some of the choices seem a little arbitrary
11:41 < kanzure> for example, why not make up events like population culling, resource gradients, injection of arbitrarily hilarious predators?
11:42 < kanzure> "Russell K. Standish has measured the informational complexity of Tierran 'organisms', and has similarly not observed complexity growth in Tierran evolution.[5]" well what definition of complexity was he using
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11:49 < kanzure> http://life.ou.edu/VirtualLife/TanevRay.htm
11:52 < kanzure> he definitely doesn't have anything like focus
11:58 < poppingtonic> genalg all the things?
11:58 < kanzure> whaat "As the procedure currently cannot be automated, but has to be performed manually under a microscope, SCNT is very resource intensive."
11:59 < kanzure> they have automated patch clamping but not nuclear transfer?
12:00 < kragen> Jim, I'm a biologist, not a computer vision researcher!
12:01 < ThomasEgi> someone called for a computer vision person?
12:03 < kragen> I'm only guessing that that's what's needed to automate SCNT
12:04 < ThomasEgi> SCNT? pictures of what needs to be computer-visioned?
12:05 < kragen> somatic-cell nuclear transfer
12:05 < kragen> see what kanzure said 8 minutes ago
12:06 < kragen> I'm guessing that the issue is that you inject the new nucleus into a (n electroporated?) somatic cell by finding the cell under a microscope and steering a needle into it
12:06 < ThomasEgi> i've been dc'ing all the time as i'm testing different network setups
12:06 < kragen> but I haven't actually seen the procedure done
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12:08 < ThomasEgi> so basically you'd need to catch a free-floating cell in a liquid, and maneuver a needle into it automatically?
12:10 < kragen> that's my extremely uninformed guess, yes
12:10 < kragen> and then squeeze
12:10 < kragen> also I'm not actually a biologist and Bryan isn't named Jim
12:12 < ThomasEgi> doesn't sound too hard from just vision and computing
12:18 < kanzure> patch clamp has been automated which requires almost exactly similar procedures
12:22 < kanzure> "Genetic rescue of an endangered mammal by cross-species nuclear transfer using post-mortem somatic cells" nice
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14:57 < FourFire> Hello
14:57 < FourFire> I want to ask for opinions on this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/2ojhip/recommended_readingwebsites_to_follow_for_those/cmo75z6
14:58 < FourFire> is it to speculative, or is it hard, HPlus?
14:58 < FourFire> too*
15:00 < kanzure> dna repair already exists nature beat you
15:01 < kanzure> .wik dna repair
15:01 < yoleaux> "DNA repair is a collection of processes by which a cell identifies and corrects damage to the DNA molecules that encode its genome. In human cells, both normal metabolic activities and environmental factors such as UV light and radiation can cause DNA damage, resulting in as many as 1 million individual molecular lesions per cell per day." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dna_repair
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15:03 < FourFire> kanzure: not like this it doesn't
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15:07 < FourFire> kanzure: yes DNA repair does exist in nature, indeed my inspiration is the possibility of combining most effective of various repair mechanisms which exist in different species, and those which don't exist, that we know of, and using them to upgrade us
15:09 < FourFire> kanzure: what do you think of having a stable platform, I admit I'm boased towards the idea that we can translate all our metabolic hacks into DNA or make them with DNA/proteins/enzymes in the first place and have (more than now) self sufficient bodies
15:10 < FourFire> though from what I observe most transhumanists & futurists seem to sway into the idea of nanotechnology so much that it's become a mushy brained buzzword of hype
15:11 < kanzure> what do you mean by "stable platform"
15:12 < FourFire> well if you have the ultimate  wikipedia on a laptop but the screen is broken, then it doesn't help you
15:12 < kanzure> what?
15:13 < FourFire> if you have all the metabolism hacks implimented as DNA, but then DNA gets broken, it doesn't help
15:13 < kanzure> metabolism is specified in the genome
15:13 < kanzure> what does any of this have to do with "a stable platform"?
15:14 < FourFire> so I see fixing [the genome] as a (not perfect, but better than before) stable platform for the other (implimented in DNA) solutions for aging
15:14 < kanzure> so your question is "is a better genome better?"?
15:15 < FourFire> I feel dumb trying to translate what I'm thinking into computer or car analogies
15:15 < FourFire> no, my question is: "do you personally think much about the problem where DNA gets damaged al the time?"
15:15 < FourFire> "and do you think that problem should be solved, or are there more important things which should be fixed first?"
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15:18 < FourFire> kanzure: or do you think that most of the solution to aging will be implimented through other, non biological (or at least non self sufficient) technologies ?
15:19 < kanzure> you can avoid most radiation sources if you're willing to live in a box
15:19 < kanzure> dna repair is pretty complex, see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/
15:20 < chris_99> wouldn't you still eat potentially radioactive sources though, like fishes
15:20 < FourFire> thinking of the logical conclusion of stem cell treatment, here, where cells are intelligently and invasively removed from the host, incubated, and then intelligently replaced (which requires some sort of specialist doctors or computers + robots equivalent and is thus not self sufficient, but still biological in nature)
15:20 < kanzure> for a generic somewhat okay introduction to reasonable strategies for biological anti-aging approaches, see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ and http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/Aubrey/ if you've never read aubrey-related things
15:21 < kanzure> in general, i think it is a bad idea to rely or plan for anti-aging solutions that are based on non-existing molecular nanotechnology
15:21 < FourFire> Thanks, but I'm not talking about avoiding radiation, I'm talking about enginneering to make the contents of the the cell nucleus more robust so that you could actually be in more radiation than is normal now and take less lasting damage from it
15:21 < kanzure> regarding DNA repair besides http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ also consider http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/
15:22 < FourFire> we as a species (or at least a subset of us) will live in space someday not too far off
15:22 < FourFire> Thanks, I'm sortof a fan of Aubrey, but I'll just check to see whether I've read those before
15:22 < kanzure> if you have access to molecular nanotechnology then you would probably want to get rid of most of the way that biology works
15:22 < kanzure> instead of copying a genome in every cell a few thousand or million times you would just have some canonical genome data storage somewhere and use that
15:23 < FourFire> kanzure: of course, but that seems a little longer term than I am thinking
15:23 < kanzure> you can still get radiation causing bitfips in long-term memory, but there are ways to avoid that which do not rely on molecular nanotechnology
15:23 < jrayhawk> "Perhaps in twenty years the Processing power of the worlds largest supercomputers will be enough to perform this search and then this particular piece of the aging problem will be solved in a triumphant, coordinated effort." i do not think you understand brute forcing and cosmological energy limits
15:23 < FourFire> and if you're replacing most or all of biology, then our general knowledge (of biology) is far more advanced than it is now, or will be in a couple of decades
15:24 < FourFire> jrayhawk: which is why I use weasel words like "perhaps"
15:24 < jrayhawk> "cancer (and other woes of cellular malfunction caused by DNA damage)": i wish to remind you that the somatic gene mutation theory of cancer has yielded essentially zero useful implications and appears to be untrue
15:25 < FourFire> jrayhawk: and "perhaps" we will be doing it with methods which are more efficient than brute forcing, such as genetic algorithms connected somehow with support vector machines, in order to reduce the search space
15:26 < kanzure> vast majority of any progress related to proteins is going to be from rational protein design and stealing from the remaining parts of the animal kingdom that we haven't nuked yet
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15:26 < FourFire> jrayhawk: ok, that's good, i did not know that, as I have not taken the time to read many papers on cancer research
15:27 < FourFire> kanzure: is that a strong claim?
15:27 < FourFire> or are you just saying it because you think that?
15:28 < jrayhawk> http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-7-7.pdf is the seminal paper on the subject, though it doesn't do nearly enough to damn the current research approach
15:28 < kanzure> er, it is an objective fact that it is between hard and impossible to stea from dna that doesn't exist
15:28 < kanzure> *steal
15:28 < FourFire> actually, I agree with you, the vast majority of progress in proteins Will be due to rational design, but only after we can get computers to do it for us
15:29 < FourFire> which is sorta kindof what I'm suggesting here
15:30 < FourFire> I just use the terms "brute force" and "search space" instead, in order to not have to explain how you might go about designing proteins with intention
15:32 < kanzure> if you wanted short term dna repair stuff to do then look at radiodurans genes and try them out in some other disgusting smelly bacteria
15:33 < kanzure> iirc someone has beaten you to this http://2011.igem.org/Team:NYC_Wetware
15:33 < FourFire> if my fermi estimates of how hard it will be to produce Tertiary protein structures from directed,  Genetic Algorithms combned with a support vector machine (or other narrow AI tecniques) is that many orders of magnitude off then we are fucked anyway
15:33 < kanzure> "We're placing genes from Deinococcus radiodurans into E. coli and upregulating some of E. coli's own genes. We targeted genes associated with radioresistance in the hopes of conferring radioresistance upon radiovulnerable E. coli. Future applications for the control of cellular resistance to radiation include bioremediation of radioactive waste, highly effective stem cell transplants, and terraforming Mars."
15:33 < FourFire> yes i was inspired by radiodurans
15:35 < FourFire> if we had three sets of our genome, and devised a protein mechanism which can check, compare, restore damaged portions constantly, or before cell division, then the genome would be more stable as a platform
15:36 < kanzure> dna repair is quite extensive and does many of those things
15:36 < FourFire> I'll read up on it more, thanks for all the links, but i have to go now
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15:38 < kanzure> "MITM watch - Tor exit nodes patching binaries [....] including Microsoft Windows Automatic updates.  The good news is that if an entity is actively patching Windows PE files for Windows Update, the update verification process detects it, and you will receive error code 0×80200053 ... If you Google the error code, the official Microsoft response is troublesome. If you follow the three steps from the official MS answer, two of those ...
15:38 < kanzure> ... steps result in downloading and executing a MS ‘Fixit’ solution executable. ... If an adversary is currently patching binaries as you download them, these ‘Fixit’ executables will also be patched. Since the user, not the automatic update process, is initiating these downloads, these files are not automatically verified before execution as with Windows Update. In addition, these files need administrative privileges to execute, ...
15:38 < kanzure> ... and they will execute the payload that was patched into the binary during download with those elevated privileges."
15:38 < jrayhawk> kanzure: re: brains as peacock tails: while intelligence is a good fitness signal, literally every other major fitness characteristic I can think of (including strength, digestive robustness, birth mortality, and immunology) has had major compromises to support the brain
15:39 < kanzure> hm!
15:39 < jrayhawk> meanwhile, actual studies on the subject of sexual partner selection involve confidence and social power rather than intelligence
15:39 < kanzure> hmm, i am not sure about confidence, but social power can totally work with limited cognitive abilities
15:40 < kanzure> depending on your adversaries
15:40 < jrayhawk> Yeah. Primatologists/anthropologists have correlated brain mass to amount-of-socialization needed for functioning.
15:40 < jrayhawk> I forget what that theory is called...
15:40 < kanzure> dunbar's number
15:40 < kanzure> :(
15:41 < jrayhawk> oh, yeah
15:41 < kanzure> here are our best guesses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence#Models
15:43 < kanzure> seems unlikely to me that sexual selection was any sort of dominant selection mechanism for human cognitive abilities-- it's possible that in the last 10,000 years that this trend has been reversed and left no evidence, but i'm not very sure.
15:45 < jrayhawk> If human evolution is a story of adaptive social tracking, then congrats, I think you win.
15:46 < jrayhawk> I'm not even going to try to keep up with you.
15:46 < kanzure> this is a terrible victory
15:47 < kanzure> fucking dunbar i should have expected his stuff to haunt me in other ways
15:47 < jrayhawk> actually i guess that guy who datamined okcupid probably wins
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15:47 < kanzure> might only count if you sire a billion kiddos
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15:48 < kanzure> one mechanism i was wondering about was family-style group selection
15:48 < kanzure> related to parents getting rid of potential suitors
15:48 < kanzure> and maybe parents had stronger influence in the past
15:49 < kanzure> and uh.. i would still have to explain how that would select for cognitive ability...
15:50 < kanzure> maybe intelligence was just hitching a ride on the x chromosome
15:50 < kanzure> and something else was getting selected
15:52 < jrayhawk> oh, and sexual partner selection also involves physical fitness characteristics (large chest to tapering waist for men, 1.3 hip/waist ratio for women), which is to say that what's being sacrificed is not selectively trivial
15:52 < jrayhawk> well, i guess for women that hip/waist thing is related to stored DHA for brain construction and viability of head extraction from the birth canal
15:53 < jrayhawk> regardless, strength still matters for men
15:53 < kanzure> hip thing is interesting for sure, for birth canal width reasons
15:53 < kanzure> (and the sexual selection on hip width)
15:54 < kanzure> but that's sort of a side effect
15:55 < kanzure> there may have been something else going on related to dumber hominids being outcompeted by less dumb hominids
15:56 < kanzure> but it seems like that would quickly hit an equilibrium
15:56 < jrayhawk> probably happening Idiocracy-style today, not that it matters
15:57 < jrayhawk> between the Flynn effect, transhumanist advancement, and impending extinction
15:57 < kragen> "dumber hominids being outcompeted by less dumb hominids" would seem to be the opposite of "happening Idiocracy-style"
15:57 < jrayhawk> oh, sorry, misread that
15:58 < jrayhawk> i thought you were looking for ways to abuse dunbar
15:58 < kragen> <kanzure> seems unlikely to me that sexual selection was any sort of dominant selection
15:58 < kanzure> dunbar's is just silly, brain volume does not cause smartness
15:58 < kanzure> kragen: of cognitive ability, i mean
15:58 < kragen> well
15:58 < kragen> there's a related thing going on
15:58 < jrayhawk> brain volume is highly costly, energy-wise
15:59 < kragen> most of our braininess gets sucked up by social interaction
15:59 < jrayhawk> so it's pretty much guaranteed to be doing *something*
15:59 < kanzure> so something like, "if brain volume does increase, and there is more energy being used up, then it damn well better be worth it"?
15:59 < kragen> who is allied with whom? is he really cheating on me?
15:59 < kragen> and a lot of that social interaction is directed toward sex
15:59 < kragen> being smart is actually good for your social abilities
16:00 < kragen> although we're kind of a channel of smart people without much social abilities
16:00 < kanzure> i don't see your point
16:01 < kragen> it's not the same thing as sexual selection
16:01 < kanzure> yes i agree there are non-sexual selection mechanisms that exist
16:01 < kragen> which is intentionally choosing partners with more X, where X is smarts or whatever
16:01 < kragen> (although there is sexual selection for smarts, too)
16:02 < kragen> but smarts allows you to have more X for a wide variety of Xes, including most especially social interaction abilities
16:04 < jrayhawk> "is he really cheating on me" probably not all that relevant; occam's razor of various biological features and anthropological studies of pre-Abrahamic tribal societies, humans were mostly polyamorous
16:05 < kanzure> "access to fish and other nutrition triggered an arms race for cognitive ability because brain development in utero was already primed to take advantage of extra nutrition"? i don't know, that last part seems suspicious
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16:07 < kragen> jrayhawk: you may be right
16:07 < jrayhawk> by that same epistemology, though, women did manipulate/control alliances
16:08 < kanzure> joey did you see the "bride price" stuff?
16:08 < kanzure> i suspect that "bride price" is a very old tradition
16:08 < jrayhawk> yeah, especially for inter-tribal exchanges
16:08 < kanzure> where you make a mutually beneficial trade that places a price on some genotype/phenotype, and the price is some other resources that might be at least as valuable as the loss of a daughter from your clan
16:09 < kanzure> bad trades => increasing irrelevancy
16:11 < kanzure> interesting that even chimpanzees pamper offspring for five years
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16:12 < jrayhawk> "fish" is an oversimplification; there was certainly a feedback cycle of increasing energy demands of encaphalization, decreasing digestive and enzymatic capacity, and increasing capacity to select preformed and bioavailable nutrients
16:17 < jrayhawk> Of which DHA and iodine (fish) was one. Menaquinone (savannah ruminants) was another. Humans also went pretty far out of their way with selective hunting and butchering and to grab animal fats (MUFAs and SFAs oxidative phosphorylation being an optimally low oxidative burden).
16:18 < jrayhawk> Production of things like retinol and carnatine are also pretty compromised in humans.
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16:22 < jrayhawk> speaking of ludicrous encephalization demands, remembering things is hard and i should probably have eaten at some point today
16:29 < kanzure> carl sagan claims "bipedalism preceded encephalization because australopithecines cranial volume was low and they were walking around"
16:30 < kanzure> oh wait, i think that's widely known
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16:37 < kanzure> knowledge of death would have been a useful thing. those with better knowledge of death would be able to avoid death better.
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16:51 < kanzure> maybe that doesn't work, because anxiety was already working well enough to keep previous generations alive
16:52 < jrayhawk> the typical prey animal "is it moving quickly? run away" model seems a bit incomplete
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16:56 < kanzure> hmm death/burial rituals 300k years ago
16:57 < kanzure> so that may seem incomplete but all the other animals seem to use that pretty well
16:58 < kanzure> "a widespread Neanderthal bear-cult existed [...] instance archeological evidence from art and bear remains reveals that the bear cult apparently had involved a type of sacrificial bear ceremonialism in which a bear was shot with arrows and then was finished off by a shot in the lungs and ritualistically buried near a clay bear statue covered by a bear fur — with the skull and the body of the bear buried separately.[6]"
16:58 < kanzure> that is a cool cult
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17:02 < kragen> how old is the Venus of WIllendorf?
17:02 < kanzure> "estimated to have been made between about 28,000 and 25,000 BCE.[1] "
17:03 < kanzure> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines
17:04 < kanzure> "dated to between 35,000 and 40,000 years ago"
17:05 < kanzure> this one was made out of mammoth ivory 40 kya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_man_of_the_Hohlenstein_Stadel
17:15 < kragen> seems weird that you'd have burial rituals but no sculpture
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17:20 < kanzure> dead bodies stink
17:21 < superkuh> An aside: homo erectus living on Java were doodling geometric patterns on sea shells 500k years ago (10.1038/nature13962).
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17:27 < kanzure> neat
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18:21 < kanzure> "Several authors have attempted to explain this greater encephalization of humans in terms of physiological factors unrelated to intelligence. Falk[55] proposed that the prime physiological ‘releaser’ of brain size in the genus Homo was an evolution of a network of cranial veins that allow cooling of the enlarged brain under conditions of hyperthermia, which affected hominids during foraging in Africa (‘radiator theory’)."
18:23 < kanzure> criticism and alternatives to the "expensive tissue hypothesis" http://www.gwern.net/docs/algernon/1998-henneberg.pdf
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18:27 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3560992?uid=3739560&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21105402286683
18:34 < jrayhawk> http://www.slideshare.net/ancestralhealth/ahs13-will-lassek-md i assume you remember this presentation
18:35 < kanzure> radiator theory http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Brain%20evolution%20in%20Homo:%20The%20radiator%20theory.pdf
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18:37 < kanzure> "Selective brain cooling in humans" http://www.fasebj.org/content/7/12/1143.full.pdf
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18:42 < kanzure> "Targeted brain hypothermia induced by an interstitial cooling device in human neck: theoretical analyses" claims they can drop brain matter temperature by 3 degrees celsius in under an hour, neato
18:44 < kanzure> no selective brain cooling in baboons http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/292/5/R2059
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19:13 < jrayhawk> most relevantly that half of "healthy" human births involve intracranial hemorrhaging and, without c-sections, firstborns have a good chance of getting blocked and killing the mother
19:14 < jrayhawk> so whatever the evolutionary pressure is to encephalize, it's *ridiculous*
19:14 < kanzure> hemorrhaging in mothers?
19:14 < jrayhawk> or, rather, superfluous
19:14 < jrayhawk> no, in the children
19:15 < jrayhawk> babies generally need to reduce skull circumference by 5-10% just to physically transit the birth canal
19:16 < jrayhawk> at least, firstborns
19:16 < kanzure> seems likely that for a trend of increasing pelvis size that this has been 5-10% during much of the historical selection on pelvis enlargement
19:18 < bkero> Quite evident in Italy
19:19 < jrayhawk> yeah. but the point is a lot of these "oh it can't be intelligence or functionality of the brain" papers offer no plausible alternative incentive to make such fatal tradeoffs
19:32 < kanzure> foraging -> high temperatures and hyperthermia -> selective pressure favoring better brain cooling (which does not seem to require skull size changes) -> uh... yeah i lost track.
19:32 < fenn> bkero: women have wider hips in italy?
19:33 < bkero> Yeah
19:33 < bkero> The national average
19:33 < kragen> .g italian female hip width
19:33 < yoleaux> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1358557/Why-gone-apple-shaped-womens-dream-figure.html
19:33 < kragen> .g italian female hip width -dailymail
19:33 < yoleaux> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3587077/
19:33 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1259%2Fbjr%2F57130600
19:34 < bkero> Read an article a while back that was saying several qualities of Italian women are ideal for birthing/child rearing.
19:34 < bkero> (including hip width)
19:35 < fenn> their strict catholic guilt-induction
19:35 < fenn> .title
19:35 < yoleaux> 404 Not Found
19:35 < fenn> the daily mail article was more relevant :(
19:36 < kragen> really? I just assumed it wouldn't be
19:36 < fenn> not really
19:36 < kragen> no it isn't!
19:36 < kragen> it doesn't even mention Italian women
19:37 < fenn> at least it mentions hip width
19:37 < kragen> it does
19:39 < kanzure> "the density of sweat glands on the forehead is three times that of the rest of the body (Cabanac 1987)"
19:40 < kanzure> "Cabanac's work provides insight into the perplexing question of why bipedalism preceded the dramatic increase in brain size in Homo by at least 1.5 million years (so-called mosaic evolution). Figure 5 plots the increase in brain size (as a percentage of the modern mean value of 1400 cm3 ) with the frequencies of emissary and parietal foramina provided in Figure 4. These data strongly suggest that elaboration of the radiator network of ...
19:40 < kanzure> ... veins took place during the increase in brain size that occurred in our lineage."
19:41 < fenn> i guess the study of hip measurements is the sole purview of purvy viewers
19:42 < kanzure> "Drawing from the computer sciences, Fialkowski (1978; 1986) earlier suggested that increased brain size during hominid evolution provided structural redundancy that prevented cognitive impairment due to heat stress."
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19:50 < jrayhawk> catholicism is more about shame-induction
19:50 < jrayhawk> judaism is the guilt-induction one
19:51 < kanzure> you should feel bad for not remembering this
19:51 < kanzure> wait, am i shaming or guilting him, here?
19:51 < fenn> .ety shame
19:51 < yoleaux> shame (n.): "Old English scamu, sceomu "feeling of guilt or disgrace; confusion caused by shame; disgrace, dishonor, insult, loss of esteem or reputation; shameful circumstance, what brings disgrace; modesty; private parts," from Proto-Germanic *skamo ( …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=shame
19:51 < jrayhawk> should he feel bad for not remembering this, or for being the sort of person who doesn't remember this
19:51 < fenn> .ety guilt
19:51 < yoleaux> guilt (n.): "Old English gylt "crime, sin, fault, fine," of unknown origin, though some suspect a connection to Old English gieldan "to pay for, debt," but OED editors find this "inadmissible phonologically." The mistaken use for "sense of guilt" is  …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=guilt
19:52 < fenn> guilt has more to do with money?
19:52 < jrayhawk> .g guilt shame
19:52 < yoleaux> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shame/201305/the-difference-between-guilt-and-shame
19:54 < fenn> i feel guilty that everyone else sucks
19:54 < fenn> i.e. the person who wrote this article
19:55 < jrayhawk> it's hard to write an article on the subject for laypeople
19:55 < fenn> "shame doesn't necessarily depend on our having done anything." what!!
19:56 < jrayhawk> largely because everyone has a pretty broken ego-superego relationship and has long since lost the ability to distinguish the relevant concepts
19:57 < fenn> From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English: a painful sensation ... of having done something which injures reputation,
19:57 < jrayhawk> i guess brene brown does a decent job
19:58 < fenn> .g brene brown shame guilt
19:58 < yoleaux> http://brenebrown.com/2013/01/14/2013114shame-v-guilt-html/
19:58 < fenn> "shame researchers" oh boy
19:59 < fenn> and here i was feeling sinful for trying to find statistics on worldwide hip measurements
19:59 < jrayhawk> http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame
20:00 < fenn> she never defines guilt?
20:00 < kanzure> so with the radiator theory i am more prepared to accept the hypothesis that "increasing encephalization and increasing number of neurons will generally increase general intelligence or cognitive abilities" because the answer to "why has this only happened to humans" is that all of the other brains have thermoregulatory problems (and i suspect that if we looked at them we would find that they are almost always near their thermoregulatory ...
20:00 < kanzure> ... limits in almost all brained species) which prevents them from going into some insane hyperselection for intelligence
20:01 < kanzure> although this doesn't explain why dolphins or octopuses aren't hyperselecting for intelligence... they don't have as many cooling problems, i'd think.
20:02 < kragen> octopodes are pretty astonishingly intelligent considering that they are molluscs
20:02 < fenn> radiator theory -_-
20:02 < jrayhawk> i like that name because it sounds dumb
20:02 < kanzure> also that selection for intelligence in other brained species is not the same as selecting for thermoregulatory benefits because uh.. something about the rarity of getting both changes at once..
20:02 < fenn> it certainly does sound dumb
20:02 < kanzure> name's based on some story about a car mechanic
20:02 < kanzure> what's not to like?
20:02 < kanzure> you guys are just haters
20:02 < jrayhawk> elephants have bigger brains than humans
20:02 < fenn> it's not about radiating heat? or problems with heat radiation?
20:03 < kanzure> see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Brain%20evolution%20in%20Homo:%20The%20radiator%20theory.pdf
20:03 < jrayhawk> they also have better radiators
20:03 < kanzure> what is their better radiator?
20:03 < jrayhawk> their ears
20:03 < jrayhawk> their diet still sucks, and they are still dumb
20:03 < jrayhawk> at least, relative to humans
20:03 < jrayhawk> they're pretty smart as mammals go
20:03 < kanzure> their ears probably don't have blood from their brain
20:04 < jrayhawk> i guess that's probably true
20:04 < fenn> larger animals have less heat exchange capacity per unit mass, so elephants should be dumber (according to some theory i haven't actually read yet)
20:05 < fenn> also polar bears and penguins should be geniuses
20:06 < kanzure> they probably have to balance things like not freezing to death
20:06 < jrayhawk> what does that even mean
20:07 < kanzure> balance "not freezing to death" with "brain cooling"
20:07 < jrayhawk> there isn't a balance there
20:08 < jrayhawk> there is no tradeoff
20:08 < jrayhawk> they're both weighted the same direction
20:08 < kanzure> hmm.
20:08 < kanzure> (also, it's not just cooling but also distribution of nutrients)
20:10 < kanzure> "Estimates of when polar bears began to split from brown bears continue to change as geneticists look further into the polar bear genome. The most recent paper now puts the evolutionary time frame at around 400,000-500,000 years. "
20:10 < kanzure> "fter beginning to branch off from brown bears, the polar bear's ancestors underwent a series of rapid evolutionary changes (less than 20,500 generations) in order to survive in the harsh conditions of the Arctic. The bears adapted to a life of hunting seals and surviving extreme cold. One of the most remarkable adaptations was the ability to thrive on a fat-rich diet without heart damage."
20:10 < kanzure> 500k years is not enough to catch up with monkey evolution
20:10 < kanzure> apparently
20:11 < kanzure> this one is going to take me some more time: "Penguins are very interesting birds, and the have a long history behind them that is more than 60 million years old."
20:11 < kragen> that's interesting; can we thrive on a fat-rich diet without heart damage?
20:11 < jrayhawk> kragen: the lipid hypothesis was disproven by about a dozen RCTs several decades ago
20:12 < fenn> kragen: yes
20:12 < kragen> why can't other bears?
20:12 < kragen> I mean, is it brown bears or polar bears that are the weirdos, mammalianly speaking?
20:12 < fenn> bears can
20:12 < fenn> i don't know what the author was smoking
20:13 < fenn> why would a bear get heart damage from eating its natural diet
20:13 < kragen> brown bears eat a lot of plants
20:13 < kanzure> because life span maybe?
20:13 < kanzure> who cares about heart damage if you're dead in 10 years or something
20:13 < kanzure> (i don't know how old they get)
20:14 < kragen> depends on how fast the heart damage happens
20:14 < kanzure> i need a better evolutionary tree diagram
20:14 < kanzure> with a timeine
20:14 < kanzure> *timeline
20:15 < kanzure> http://www.tellapallet.com/tree_of_life.htm
20:15 < kanzure> maybe i shoud be making up some argument about birds being different?
20:15 < kanzure> also where the fuck are the dinosaurs
20:16 < fenn> kragen: please just pretend you never read anything about heart damage; the site was written by someone who is not an evolutionary biologist
20:16 < kanzure> oh just one picture of a dinosaur
20:17 < kanzure> maybe penguins just have different heat stuff going on in their head
20:17 < fenn> wow animals and plants are super duper hugely over-represented in that "tree of life"
20:17 < kanzure> .g penguin brain anatomy veins 
20:17 < yoleaux> http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdcirculatory.html
20:17 < fenn> "oh btw prokaryotes"
20:17 < kragen> kanzure: oldest captive polar bear died at 43
20:18 < fenn> i don't even see fungus on there anywhere
20:18 < jrayhawk> and captive mammal lifespans are typically quite a bit shorter than natural lifespans
20:18 < kanzure> "The jugular anastomosis allows blood to flow from right to left side when the birds head is turned & one of the jugulars constricted. The jugular veins drain the head and neck. "
20:18 < kragen> "The oldest wild bears on record died at age 32"
20:18 < fenn> oh it's stuck in with jellyfish and amoeba, because those are totally related
20:19 < kanzure> surely there's a better evolutionary tree out there, ugh
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20:21 < jrayhawk> sequencing technologies suck and half of biologists are still arguing that hybridization is a real form of speciation, and there are still lots of things we don't know about epigenetics
20:21 < jrayhawk> so evolutionary "trees" are going to be pretty bad for quite a while
20:21 < jrayhawk> s/that hybridization/whether hybridization/
20:21 < kanzure> i am okay with them being *wrong* i just want something that works and shows me real information
20:22 < kanzure> like timelines and maybe even a search tool
20:22 < jrayhawk> "Google For Genetic Taxonomy" seems like a useful prodct idea
20:22 < kanzure> http://tolweb.org/tree/
20:22 < kanzure> this is a bad landing page
20:23 < kanzure> and no concept of evolutionary history or timelines... http://tolweb.org/Sphenisciformes/26387
20:24 < jrayhawk> that one penguin is just excited to be there
20:24 < fenn> why are you looking at cladistic trees again?
20:25 < kanzure> well first i was looking at polar bears to see if i could make some easy bullshit for why they are not supergeniuses
20:25 < kanzure> and their short existence is good enough to explain away their stupidity
20:25 < kanzure> next i was going to think about penguins
20:25 < fenn> jrayhawk: sequence distance seems like a reliable metric of *something*
20:26 < kanzure> which have been around for 120x longer
20:26 < kanzure> and presumably penguins have always been on the ice caps?
20:26 < kanzure> would sort of suck if some asshole called a non-glacier-loving penguin ancestor a penguin too...
20:26 < fenn> i dunno; penguins should be geniuses by my theories
20:27 < fenn> they don't have hands tho
20:27 < fenn> should be at least as smart as dolphins
20:28 < fenn> "penguins invented linux and are presumed to have been the most intelligent species during the holcene"
20:29 < jrayhawk> http://www.macroevolution.net/human-origins.html speaking of adventures in phylogeny, i think fenn was dormant when this was getting passed around
20:29 < fenn> no i read that, quite entertaining
20:29 < jrayhawk> oh good
20:30 < jrayhawk> there was also that platypus hybrid genetics paper
20:30 < fenn> i mean, a very serious philosophical tract
20:32 < fenn> poor galapagos penguins, "Because of the Galapagos penguin's smaller size, it has many predators. On land, the penguins are preyed upon by crabs, snakes, rice rats, cats, hawks, and owls. While in the water they are preyed upon by sharks, fur seals, and sea lions."
20:40 < fenn> "individuals violating a 1775 law banning hunting the great auk for its feathers or eggs were publicly flogged, though hunting for use as fishing bait was still permitted."
20:41 < lichen> did that hybrid evo guy TRY to make his site look as shady as possible?
20:43 < jrayhawk> what, are there animated gifs, marquees, and blink tags or something
20:45 < lichen> there are reader quotes about how great the article is interspersed within the text
20:45 < lichen> and his photo is on every page ive seen so far
20:46 < kanzure> sheena: http://www.macroevolution.net/dog-cow-hybrids.html
20:46 < fenn> the popup ads for bestiality porn are distracting too
20:47 < kanzure> that might be something ese
20:47 < kanzure> *else
20:47 < kanzure> (dating personals?)
20:48 < lichen> popup ads? in 2014?
20:48 < jrayhawk> i think fenn doesn't even use a javascript browser, so he is probably joking
20:48 < lichen> indeed
20:51 < kanzure> maybe there's no amount of intelligence that makes a penguin more successful
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20:52 < fenn> why did it help humans and not penguins then
20:53 < jrayhawk> man, what did dunbar do to you
20:53 < fenn> not all penguins lived on barren rocks or ice
20:53 < fenn> also dolphins have intelligence and only live in water
20:54 < fenn> the only commonality i see is hunting in packs
20:54 < fenn> (and being mammals)
20:55 < kanzure> wikipedia article about penguins doesn't even have the word "brain"
20:55 < fenn> hunting in packs could be a *result* of intelligence though
20:56 < fenn> are you kidding wikipedia
20:56 < fenn> "The bony-eared assfish has the smallest brain-to-body weight ratio of all known vertebrates
20:57 < fenn> added to insults.txt
20:57 < jrayhawk> haha
20:58 < fenn> "the elephantnose fish, an African freshwater fish, has the largest brain-to-body weight ratio of all known vertebrates."
20:59 < kanzure> maybe something about absolute brain size in penguin?
20:59 < kanzure> arctic elephant now.. that might be something.
20:59 < kanzure> oh wait....
20:59 < fenn> heh
21:01 < kanzure> "As of 2014, there are two major ongoing projects, one led by Akira Iritani of Japan and another by Hwang Woo-suk of South Korea, attempting to recover the mammoth population.[34]"
21:03 < fenn> man this thing beats the hell out of any sci-fi alien
21:04 < fenn> "Its most striking feature, as its names suggest, is a trunk-like protrusion on the head. This is not actually a nose, but a sensitive extension of the mouth, that it uses for self-defense, communication, navigation, and finding worms and insects to eat. This organ is covered in electroreceptors, as is much of the rest of its body. ... The weak electrical impulses generated by this fish can be
21:04 < fenn> made audible by placing two electrodes in the fish tank that are then hooked up to an audio amplifier or a piezoelectric earbud. The elephant nose fish can use its electosensing to detect moving prey and worms in the substrate.
21:04 < fenn> Although the elephant nose fish was once thought to have poor eyesight, it is now known to have good low light vision. Its eyes use a combination of photonic crystals, parabolic mirrors and a clustered arrangement of rods and cones."
21:05 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S985DqLXhSA&t=1m20s
21:05 < yoleaux> Elephant nose fish feeding - YouTube
21:08 < fenn> it seems a lot smarter than most fish for sure
21:11 < jrayhawk> While I don't think there's evidence to come to a real conclusion, a lot of the magic in human phylogeny happened around the switch from C3 to C4 ecology; there may be something magic yet to be learned about C4-derived nutrients.
21:11 < jrayhawk> Like Mk4 and CLA and VA
21:12 < kanzure> "Repetitive vocalizations evoked by electrical stimulation of avian brains."
21:12 < jrayhawk> haha, scientists are monsters
21:12 < kanzure> they are wonderful monsters
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21:15 < kragen> ...photonic crystals?
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21:17 < jrayhawk> crocodiles learned how to eat both ruminants and fish and they didn't bother to evolve at all
21:17 < kanzure> "Observations of the comparative anatomy of the avian brain" (can't find it)
21:17 < jrayhawk> lazy jerks
21:21 < catern> that fish is cthulhu or something
21:23 < kragen> it hath cruell teeth and scaly back, with very sharpe clawes on his feete:
21:24 < kanzure> "aptenodytes encephalization" 13 results
21:25 < fenn> in his eyes a shining trapezohedron, the aether trembles with fear
21:25 < kanzure> aptenodytes forsteri "observed brain volume: 46.19 ml" "predicted brain volume: 74.99 ml" page 7 figure 4 http://vertebrates.si.edu/birds/birds_pdfs/hfj6.pdf
21:26 < kanzure> (emperor penguin)
21:27 < fenn> er, what
21:28 < fenn> written in 1935: Nyarlathotep had cheated Dexter, forcing him to peer into the stone and throw the stone into the bay, where the eternal darkness of the depths gave the Haunter the power to remain perpetually free; it used this power to merge with Dr. Dexter and make him one of the world's leading nuclear scientists-in charge of atomic investigation for warfare.
21:29 < kanzure> stupid time travelers
21:29 < kanzure> messing everything up
21:29 < kanzure> "i don't want to have to learn a bunch of new kings when we get back"
21:32 < fenn> i'm going to chalk this one up to bad wikipedia editing
21:34 < kanzure> maybe nobody has really looked at penguin brains
21:35 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL-SmhFlFoQ
21:35 < yoleaux> Monty Python Penguin Research - YouTube
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21:39 < nmz787> kanzure: that dog hybrid thing looks more like a birth-defected deer
21:40 < nmz787> s/defected/mutated/
21:42 < kanzure> .wik snow algae
21:42 < yoleaux> "Watermelon snow, also called snow algae, pink snow, red snow, or blood snow, is Chlamydomonas nivalis, a species of green algae containing a secondary red carotenoid pigment (astaxanthin) in addition to chlorophyll. Unlike most species of fresh-water algae, it is cryophilic (cold-loving) and thrives in freezing water." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_algae
21:43 < kanzure> "Compressing the snow by stepping on it or making snowballs leaves it looking red. Walking on watermelon snow often results in getting bright red soles and pinkish pant cuffs."
21:43 < kanzure> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Watermelon_snow_-_Uinta_Mountains.jpg
21:44 < kanzure> i wonder if this is one of the snows that the eskimos have a name for
21:44 < kanzure> and this doesn't have nearly enough content http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_alga
21:45 < kanzure> "A different kind of ice algae live on glacier surfaces, a permanently cold freshwater ecosystem. Known members of this group include Mesotaenium berggrenii and Ancylonema nordensskiöldii"
21:49 < kanzure> "In the more extreme areas of the mainland, such as the cold deserts, food webs are sometimes restricted to three nematode species, only one of which is a predator.[9]"
21:50 < kanzure> neat "Bacteria have been revived from Antarctic snow hundreds of years old.[29]"
21:51 < kanzure> "Its diet consists primarily of fish, but can also include crustaceans, such as krill, and cephalopods, such as squid. In hunting, the species can remain submerged up to 18 minutes, diving to a depth of 535 m (1,755 ft). It has several adaptations to facilitate this, including an unusually structured hemoglobin to allow it to function at low oxygen levels."
21:52 < kanzure> functioning at low oxygen levels seems to be at odds with brain metabolism
21:52 < kanzure> "and the ability to reduce its metabolism and shut down non-essential organ functions"
21:52 < kanzure> well, hm
21:53 < kanzure> "... which is much lower than the emperor penguin's average body temperature of 39 °C (102 °F)"
21:54 < kanzure> "The emperor penguin is able to thermoregulate (maintain its core body temperature) without altering its metabolism, over a wide range of temperatures. Known as the thermoneutral range, this extends from −10 to 20 °C (14 to 68 °F). Below this temperature range, its metabolic rate increases significantly, although an individual can maintain its core temperature from 38.0 °C (100.4 °F) down to −47 °C (−53 °F).[29] Movement by ...
21:54 < kanzure> ... swimming, walking, and shivering are three mechanisms for increasing metabolism; a fourth process involves an increase in the breakdown of fats by enzymes, which is induced by the hormone glucagon.[30] At temperatures above 20 °C (68 °F), an emperor penguin may become agitated as its body temperature and metabolic rate rise to increase heat loss. Raising its wings and exposing the undersides increases the exposure of its body ...
21:54 < kanzure> ... surface to the air by 16%, facilitating further heat loss.[31]"
21:58 < kanzure> 3d model of "the fossil penguin Paraptenodytes" https://fossilpenguins.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/brain1.jpg?w=700&h=261 from https://fossilpenguins.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/dividing-up-the-brain/
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22:02 < kanzure> this looks like the only study of penguin brains in the fossil record http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1096-3642.2012.00835.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
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22:12 < kanzure> fenn: what about eskimos? they have had 4,000 years.
22:51 < catern> https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/faqs/top.html how old
23:01 < sheena> kanzure:  re dog cow hybrid, i'd vote that's a vitamin deficient pregnancy cow
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