--- Day changed Mon Dec 08 2014
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02:11 < chris_99> Does anyone know what it means when they say you can connect a mixer chip to a detection chip, with a needle
02:11 < chris_99> couldn't i use tubes?
02:15 < archels> tubes are always an option
02:20 < chris_99> when they say needle i assume they mean like a syringe needle right?
02:22 < archels> could it be that you're not talking about radio receivers at all?
02:25 < chris_99> yes
02:31 < fenn> i recommend the retro-encabulator method
02:33 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w
02:33 < yoleaux> Rockwell Retro Encabulator - YouTube
02:33 < jrayhawk> need to prevent side fumbling, don't you know
02:34 < jrayhawk> i liked the additions the chrysler one had
02:42 < fenn> "too much gas in the fuel system"
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07:08 < kanzure> pfft you ignored the eskimos
07:20 < kanzure> hmm http://www.toageornottoage.com/
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07:41 < kanzure> hehe "Blood-brain barrier alteration after microwave-induced hyperthermia is purely a thermal effect"
07:41 < kanzure> so the radiator theory from yesterday would predict that the majority of brained organisms are maximally brained up to some thermoregulatory limit, which i think could be physically confirmed
07:41 < kanzure> "Thermal damage threshold of brain tissue--histological study of heated normal monkey brains."
07:44 < kanzure> "Thermodynamic constraints on neural dimensions, firing rates, brain temperature and size" http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.3690.pdf
07:44 < kanzure> bunch of these look relevant http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=16110015816395507724&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en
07:51 < kanzure> "Constancy and trade-offs in the neuroanatomical and metabolic design of the cerebral cortex" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3920482/
07:51 < kanzure> "It is known from the laws of thermodynamics that small objects warm up faster than larger ones, and hence one might suspect that axons could warm up excessively due to their small submicrometer diameter. However, this is not the case (Karbowski, 2009). Relatively large cerebral metabolic rates and small fiber diameters are still not enough to warm up the cortical tissue by more than a couple of degrees Celsius (Kiyatkin, 2007). This is ...
07:51 < kanzure> ... mainly due to the circulating cerebral blood that cools the brain in its deeper regions (Karbowski, 2009). Therefore, it appears that temperature in the cortex is almost always well below a critical temperature leading to irreversible damage of neurons and synapses, which is 43–44°C (Karbowski, 2009), provided the environmental temperature is not too excessive. To reach that critical temperature the intracortical wiring would have ...
07:51 < kanzure> ... to be at least ~10 times thinner (Karbowski, 2009). Similarly, the heat in the brain is not large enough to impose a limit on brain size, assuming that both cerebral metabolic rate and blood flow would scale for large hypothetical brains according to expectations given by the allometric scaling (Karbowski, 2009). Concluding, the heat generated in the brain is not the major constraint affecting neuronal wiring and brain size, in spite ...
07:51 < kanzure> ... of previous suggestions (Falk, 1990)."
07:51 < kanzure> welp... hrm.
07:52 < kanzure> (that last reference is the "radiator theory")
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07:56 < Baube> Hey guys, what are the IRC channels related to H+, Singularity and related topics ?
07:57 < kanzure> unfortunately the singularity was cancelled and this is the only remaining channel
08:00 < Baube> :p
08:04 < chris_99> does anyone know anything about how easy it would be to use hormones to feminize plant seeds (not cannabis)
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08:49 < kanzure> you should know that i am in a deep epistemic crisis because thermoregulatory constraints turned out to be wrong
08:50 < fenn> heatstroke is a real thing
08:50 < fenn> also, it definitely seems harder to think when it's hot out
08:51 < fenn> this doesn't mean i think the brain is a radiator
08:51 < kanzure> "brain is a radiator" isn't quite the same thing...
08:51 < fenn> also i read something about performance improving when cooling was applied to the head (lost reference, never to be found again)
08:51 < kanzure> "blood is a radiator"
08:51 < fenn> blood is coolant
08:52 < kanzure> erm, uh, yes
08:52 < fenn> external veins can be radiators
08:52 < fenn> how does the radiator hypothesis go?
08:53 < kanzure> see abstract of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Brain%20evolution%20in%20Homo:%20The%20radiator%20theory.pdf
08:53 < kanzure> rebuttal is http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3920482/
08:57 < fenn> the radiator theory is "the network of veins acted as a radiator that released a thermal constraint on brain size"
09:00 < fenn> this is dumb because water has such a high heat capacity that the whole body is essentially isothermal
09:01 < fenn> even at maximum exertion everything stays within a few fractions of a degree
09:02 < kanzure> more broadly an answer like "something released a constraint on brain architecture efficiency" would still fit even if not specifically heatstroke resistance
09:03 < kanzure> capillary network architecture could fit this description not only for heat (or, not at all for heat) reasons but also metabolism-related reasons
09:04 < kanzure> metabolism-related reasons are elaborated in the rebuttal ("Constancy and trade-offs in the neuroanatomical and metabolic design of the cerebral cortex")
09:04 < fenn> sure, blocks of solid fat are terrible heat conductors
09:05 < fenn> but all brains have capillaries, not just humans
09:05 < kanzure> well, the idea would be that the other brains have different capillary networks
09:05 < kanzure> although this seems like it would be more obvious to neuroanatomy people
09:06 < fenn> who cares
09:06 < fenn> i mean, "different capillary networks" doesn't really matter because you could have a wide range of network topologies and maintain near isothermal conditions
09:06 < kanzure> knowing why other species don't have similar cognitive abilities provides knowledge regarding implementation details of clever machines
09:07 < kanzure> yes, i thought we just established that it wasn't cooling
09:07 < kanzure> i mean that cooling was not particular special
09:07 < kanzure> *particularly
09:08 < fenn> i haven't managed to decode what passes for writing in the rebuttal yet
09:08 < fenn> scientific papers were so much more approachable in the 1950s
09:08 < fenn> .wik classic style
09:08 < kanzure> start reading at "It is known from the laws of thermodynamics that small objects warm up faster than larger ones," i guess
09:08 < yoleaux> "Classic Style Magazine was a quarterly men's interest magazine started in 2006. Originally written by Richard Mark Simmons, Classic Style Magazine's subscription began with one sale. It then moved to two and thereafter three and four." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Style_Magazine
09:08 < fenn> oh sheesh
09:08 < kanzure> that section is the one that seems to have things of interest
09:09 < kanzure> and "A few exceptions in evolutionary and developmental neuroscience dealt with a question of energetic limitations on brain size (Martin, 1981; Aiello and Wheeler, 1995; Isler and van Schaik, 2006; Karbowski, 2007;...."
09:11 < fenn> "The theory that academese is the opposite of classic style helps explain a paradox of academic writing. Many of the most stylish writers who cross over to a general audience are scientists (together with some philosophers who are fans of science), while the perennial winners of the Bad Writing Contest are professors of English. ... [that's because] most scientists believe that there are
09:12 < fenn> objective truths about the world"
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09:13 < fenn> what was i supposed to say about eskimos
09:14 < kanzure> you were supposed to say eskimos instead of penguins or polar bears
09:14 < fenn> but eskimos are human
09:15 < kanzure> so?
09:15 < fenn> i hope we can all accept as given that eskimos are intelligent
09:16 < fenn> whereas with penguins or polar bears it's not obvious at first glance
09:16 < kanzure> but eskimos might as well not even bother with all their extra fish and cold
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09:16 < kanzure> well anyway, we already established that thermoregulatory constraints were not the issue, so therefore eskimos aren't a good subject to bring up
09:16 < fenn> not even bother being intelligent because it's so easy to survive in the arctic? (huh?>)
09:16 < kanzure> but prior to this you wouldn't have known that
09:17 < kanzure> presumaby eskimos have a diet quite similar to penguins and polar bears
09:17 < fenn> yes
09:17 < kanzure> so instead of "why aren't penguins supergeniuses" i am claiming you should have asked "so why aren't we ruled by eskimos?"
09:17 < fenn> that's a fair question and entirely off topic
09:18 < fenn> jared diamond has a decent book "guns germs and steel"
09:21 < fenn> i thought the question was "what made humans intelligent and not other animals"
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09:29 < kanzure> sure
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09:33 < fenn> "guns germs and steel" basically boils down to: "Europe's geography favored balkanization into smaller, closer, nation-states, bordered by natural barriers of mountains, rivers and coastline. Threats posed by immediate neighbours ensured governments that suppressed economic and technological progress soon corrected their mistakes or were out-competed relatively quickly"
09:35 < fenn> also europe and asia had large contiguous land masses at a temperate latitude, so they could trade useful crops and animals
09:37 < fenn> this also happened with the polynesian island civilization, but they didn't have any reason to develop war technology
09:38 < fenn> population density is too low in the arctic to support serious warfare of any kind
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09:44 < kanzure> governments/tribes like that seem sort of unlikely to trigger brain development of that kind, since the situation humans were in was not particularly different from prior animals
09:48 < kanzure> and to get to governments you need brain development anyway
09:48 < kragen> maybe eskimos were smart enough, like Borges' Immortals, to avoid being governed
09:49 < kragen> to avoid having governmet
09:49 < kragen> government
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10:32 < kanzure> aaaaa https://bitbucket.org/pypa/setuptools/issue/97
10:32 < kanzure> .title
10:32 < yoleaux> pypa / setuptools / issues / #97 - find_package() doesn't find 3.3-style no-__init__.py packages — Bitbucket
10:40 < fenn> i was summarizing "why eskimos don't rule the world"
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11:15 < nmz787_i> "Ceramic capacitors, especially the multilayer style (MLCC), are the most produced and used capacitors in electronic equipment that incorporate approximately one trillion pieces (1000 billion pieces) per year"
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11:24 < chris_99> nmz787_i, do you know why you'd connect a mixer microfluidic chip to something apparently called a detection chip, with a syringe needle, rather than just tubes
11:29 < nmz787_i> hard to say without more info, but first guess is A) incompressible, and B) sterile
11:29 < nmz787_i> what was the chip material?
11:29 < nmz787_i> could be chem resistance
11:30 < chris_99> oh so what they've suggested doing, since they don't have a shallow mixer chip, is to use a mixer with a depth of >100um and connect
11:30 < chris_99> to a detection chip via a syring
11:30 < chris_99> which will be around 30um
11:30 < chris_99> depth
11:30 < chris_99> the chips are PDMS
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11:47 < kragen> Borges's Immortals didn't rule their fictional world either
11:50 < kanzure> if there were no constraints on brain architecture then every single animal should be immediately hyperselecting into general intelligence anytime there's anything resemebling a brian
11:50 < kanzure> *brain
11:50 < kanzure> since this is not the case there must be some sort of constraint at play
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13:17 < kanzure> http://biohacklabs.org/Main_Page "This website aims to bring together all nodes of the BioHack / DIY Bio network by creating a totally superfluous, totally redundant website that passive aggressively ignores all of the existing aggregation."
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13:17 < kanzure> Registrant Email: pietervanboheemen@gmail.com
13:19 < kanzure> "About two and a half years ago the platform for European DIYBiologists was envisioned at the FBI DIYBio meeting in San Fran. The European delegates at this event felt the urge to set up a separate communication channel to discuss topics that are most relevant within the European cultural, social, political and legal context. The website diybio.eu was launched back then to serve as a platform and gave rise to this mailing list. That ...
13:19 < kanzure> ... website has been gone for about a year now, and attempts by many to get in contact with the owner and revive it have been in vain."
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13:49 < bbrittain2> nmz787, ParahSailin, bkero, kanzure: any of you used Tecans before?
13:49 < bkero> Nope
13:49 < bbrittain2> fenn: ^
13:50 < bbrittain2> damn, I was mostly wondering if people have interop experience with it
13:57 < kanzure> jcline did a lot of reverse engineering work with tecan
13:57 < kanzure> bbrittain2: see cpan Robotics::Tecan
13:59 < bbrittain2> niiice
14:00 < bbrittain2> downside: must read perl
14:04 < kanzure> you can also pester him by email but please cc me
14:05 < kanzure> jncline@gmail.com
14:05 < kanzure> maaku: also maybe you did some tecan reverse engineering work?
14:05 < kanzure> bbrittain2: http://search.cpan.org/~jcline/Robotics-0.21/lib/Robotics/Tecan.pm
14:06 < kanzure> btw there's a few security vulnerabilities that i saw in this that i have not made public knowledge yet
14:06 < kanzure> although they are all totally obvious
14:06 < kanzure> and yet highly destructive and hilarious :)
14:10 < bbrittain2> kanzure: in the tecan or in the cpan lib?
14:10 < kanzure> perl library not tecan
14:10 < kanzure> haven't looked tecan implementation itself
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14:21 < archels> kanzure: anticlimax, re: diybio.eu
14:22 < kanzure> shrug, sorta
14:22 < kanzure> at minimum i can rely on my original objections to diybio.eu
14:22 < kanzure> at least i'm consistent
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15:10 < kanzure> http://blog.ycombinator.com/transcriptic "YC biotech companies will get $20,000 of free credit from Transcriptic to run experiments on their platform.  Transcriptic is a remote, robotic life science research lab that lets a user type an experiment into a web browser and run it in the real world.  Transcriptic will hopefully do for biotech startups what AWS has done for web startups. (In the interest of disclosure, Transcriptic is also in ...
15:10 < kanzure> ... the upcoming YC batch.) "
15:13 < kanzure> "You can send them in or buy commercially available reagents through us (sadly mostly not covered by the platform credits)."
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16:13 < kanzure> "The first principle is that the number of cortical areas should increase as quickly as possible with brain size (Kaas, 1995; Kaas, 2000). The result of Changizi (Changizi, 2001) on the number of areas vs brain size is consistent with this assertion. That trend would allow bigger brains to perform many sophisticated tasks in appropriately specialized locations, i.e. locally. This principle implicitly assumes that the number of areas is a ...
16:13 < kanzure> ... major contribution to animal’s capabilities (Kaas, 1995)"
16:14 < kanzure> "It is interesting to realize that by fulfilling the functional/architectonic requirements brains would have to deal with an excessive increase in size of white matter in relation to gray matter. This is undesirable, because this would lead indirectly to longer cortico-cortical axons, and that would contradict the principle of minimal axon length (Mitchison, 1992; Cajal, 1995; Cherniak, 1995; Murre and Sturdy, 1995; Chklovskii and ...
16:14 < kanzure> ... Stevens, 1999). Below we analyze how this excessive scaling of white matter vs. gray matter arises."
16:16 < kanzure> "This equation shows that, if the above three hypothetical functional principles were satisfied then the white matter volume would have to grow excessively with the gray matter volume due to fast growth of K3 with brain size. This would lead to an undesirable situation when, above certain brain scale, fibers require more space and possibly relatively more biochemical resources than the units processing information."
16:21 < kanzure> "The metabolic cost of neural information" http://www.cns.nyu.edu/csh/csh04/Articles/Laughlin-etal-98.pdf
16:21 < kanzure> "Energy consumption is several orders of magnitude greater than the thermodynamic minimum. It costs 10^4 ATP molecules to transmit a bit at a chemical synapse, and 10^6 - 10^7 ATP for graded signals in an interneuron or a photoreceptor, or for spike coding. Therefore, in noise-limited signaling systems, a weak pathway of low capacity transmits information more economically, which promotes the distribution of information among multiple ...
16:21 < kanzure> ... pathways."
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18:02 < drethelin> how's it been in here
18:04 < balrog> hey, anyone here from ohio state university that could check something for me?
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19:04 < kanzure> "Ventromedial prefrontal volume predicts understanding of others and social network size" hehe scientists hate e
19:04 < kanzure> *hate me
19:05 < kanzure> jrayhawk: here's one that andytoshi and i stumbled into, what about "when hominids switched their diets around, mental retardation because of lack of nutrition during development, so extreme encephalization compensated for poor cognitive ability, and once hominids figured out how to cook their food, their extra encephalization was available for other things"?
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19:59 < kanzure> scenarios without a singularity http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/vinge/longnow/
20:03 < kanzure> "In the last few years, Grandmaster Garry Kasparov has developed the idea of chess matches between computer-assisted players"
20:03 < kanzure> wait.... that was kasparov's idea?
20:04 < kanzure> that explains a lot
20:06 < kanzure> what's this about running against vladimir putin? hah
20:11 < kanzure> hrm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World
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20:12 < RedMEdic> h h h
20:12 < RedMEdic> Whos online right now
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20:14 < kanzure> use /names
20:15 < RedMEdic> I just tried to make
20:15 < RedMEdic> morning glory tea
20:15 < RedMEdic> and now
20:15 < RedMEdic> the waiting
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20:49 < kanzure> "vernor vinge: surviving in extremistan" eeeehh
20:54 < kanzure> http://www.frontiersin.org/profile/publications/22053202 " It is shown that the amount of capillary length and blood flow per cortical neuron are essentially conserved across mammals ... Moreover, cerebral metabolic, hemodynamic, and microvascular variables scale with allometric exponents that are simple multiples of 1/6, rather than 1/4, which suggests that brain metabolism is more similar to the metabolism of aerobic than resting body. ...
20:54 < kanzure> ... Relation of these findings to brain functional imaging studies involving the link between cerebral metabolism and blood flow is also discussed."
20:54 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0026709
20:54 < kanzure> thank you paperbot
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21:12 < kanzure> "Gravatar bug. The URL for Gravatar images is just an MD5 hash of user's email."
21:18 < kanzure> "In the brain the role of the coolant is played by the cerebral blood, but only in the deep region because there blood has a slightly lower temperature than the brain tissue. In the superficial regions brain tissue has a smaller temperature than the cerebral blood, and there blood warms up the brain. The fact that the deep brain temperature depends weakly on brain volume (Table 2), implies that brain size is not a major determinant of ...
21:18 < kanzure> ... thermal responses. This in turn implies that the thermodynamics of heat balance does not restrict the brain size in any significant way, suggesting that, in principle, brains could be heavier than 5 kg (the largest known brain)."
21:18 < kanzure> from http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.3690.pdf
21:22 < kanzure> "Thus, apparently, thermodynamics of heat balance in the gray matter does not tolerate temporal axonal delays longer than ∼0.03 sec, which is a stringent constraint."
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21:34 < kanzure> "Towards comparative theoretical neuroanatomy of the cerebral cortex"
21:34 < kanzure> "Also, axons may be under mechanical stress which may lead effectively to cortical convolutions [51], which in turn can reduce significantly the total axonal length [51]."
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21:36 < kanzure> [51] van Essen, D.C. A tension-based theory of morphogenesis and compact wiring in the central nervous system. Nature 385, (1997), pp. 313-318.
21:36 < kanzure> http://person.hst.aau.dk/06gr1088d/artikler/Pdf/A%20tension-based%20theory%20of%20morphogenesis%20and%20compact%20wiring%20in%20the%20central%20nervous%20system.pdf
21:43 < kanzure> ugh "cerebrotypes" taxa
21:45 < kanzure> "the number and density of neuronal and nonneuronal cells inside brain structures (reviewed in [47]),"
21:45 < kanzure> [47] Herculano-Houzel, S. Not all brains are made the same: New views on brain scaling in evolution. Brain Behav. Evol. 2011, 78, 22–36. 
21:59 < kanzure> gorilas feed for 10 hours a day
21:59 < kanzure> orangutans feed for 8 hours a day
22:01 < kanzure> "Our findings are also compatible with the general essence of the “maternal energy hypothesis,” according to which the maternal supply of energy to the fetus may be limiting to brain expansion (23),"
22:04 < kanzure> was from http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Metabolic%20constraint%20imposes%20tradeoff%20between%20body%20size%20and%20number%20of%20brain%20neurons%20in%20human%20evolution.pdf
22:04 < kanzure> which suggests cooking was the enabler... except how do you get a chimpanzee to figure out cooking and fire?
22:05 < kanzure> 23. Martin RD (1996) Scaling of the mammalian brain: The maternal energy hypothesis. News Physiol Sci 11:149–156.
22:05 < kanzure> paperbot: http://physiologyonline.physiology.org/content/11/4/149
22:07 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Scaling%20of%20the%20Mammalian%20Brain:%20the%20Maternal%20Energy%20Hypothesis.pdf
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22:12 < kanzure> "As a result, while brain size can no longer be considered a proxy for the number of brain neurons across mammalian brains in general, it is actually a very good proxy for the number of nonneuronal cells in the brain." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21691045
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