--- Day changed Fri Dec 12 2014
00:04 < nmz787> delinquentme: link to a fix?
00:04 < nmz787> were you able to use the normal brightness keys?
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02:24 < archels> kanzure: interesting, didn't know about the Allen Institute for AI either. Seems very antagonistic to its biological counterpart--they might as well have called it the Allen Inst for GOFAI
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04:18 < JayDugger> GOFAI?
04:18 < JayDugger> FAI, I get...
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04:24 < JayDugger> http://regexcrossword.com/, for those who've not seen it.
04:25 < archels> good old fashioned AI
04:25 < archels> or "symbolic" AI, if you will
04:28 < JayDugger> Thank you, archels.
04:29 < JayDugger> It has been a long, long, sleepless week.
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05:52 < pasky> I don't think they are particularly GOFAI, are they? at least I've seen some recent papers from them on deep learning etc.
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06:07 < archels> I only looked through the list of papers on their website, perhaps that's not all there is
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06:51 < kanzure> lots of text extraction / NLP boringness
06:52 < kanzure> allen brain institute is like 200 years ahead of them
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07:14 < archels> hehe
07:14 < archels> yes indeed
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07:53 < fenn> hah "minimal design limits scope of supply chain attacks" https://www.crowdsupply.com/inverse-path/usb-armory
07:55 < kanzure> an 8th grader emailed me some "biohacking interview questions",
07:55 < kanzure> "4. What projects have actually affected society ?"
07:55 < kanzure> "5. How has biohacking helped the public world ?"
07:55 < fenn> those questions were probably required as part of the school assignment, don't give the kid so much credit
07:56 < kanzure> right
07:56 < kanzure> "Your school sucks kid, I am sorry."
07:57 < fenn> "nothing matters, we're all going to be forgotten in the heat death of the universe. moral relativism ftl"
07:58 < kanzure> "1. What are the effective tools that biohackers use to hack?" i told him about synthesizers, sequencers and polymerase chain reaction (read, write, copy)
07:58 < fenn> today's class assignment is to find something that has helped the world. justfiy your choice in three double spaced pages.
07:58 < fenn> how about computers and open source software
07:59 < kanzure> "2. How was biohacking started ?" i babbled about null hypotheses and leeuwenhoek, and then 1960s dna synthesis and 1960s calcium chloride transformation, and 1980s polymerase chain reaction.
08:00 < kanzure> okay i have added open source software
08:03 < kanzure> "3. What is the main goal for all biohackers in general ?" i babbled about read, write, copy dna.
08:04 < poppingtonic> you could add openpcr for open source projects
08:04 < kanzure> i would never dream of inflicting adobe air on a 14 year old
08:04 < kanzure> what's wrong with you
08:06 < poppingtonic> heh... i missed that one :/
08:06 < poppingtonic> is there an equivalent/better project?
08:06 < poppingtonic> i.e. one that doesn't use AIR?
08:07 < fenn> http://www.russelldurrett.com/lightbulbpcr.html
08:07 < kanzure> (also, most 14 year olds wont have $500 laying around)
08:08 < fenn> speaking of open source hardware, this is a thing: https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-laptop
08:08 < fenn> .title
08:08 < yoleaux> Librem 15: A Free/Libre Software Laptop That Respects Your Essential Freedoms | Crowd Supply
08:09 < fenn> it's unfortunate that everything has to look like an apple product now, but i'm glad that it exists
08:09 < fenn> https://www.crowdsupply.com/stenosaurus/next-generation-open-stenotype
08:09 < fenn> meh nevermind
08:10 < kanzure> "3. What is the main goal for all biohackers in general ?" "they do it for the lolz"
08:11 < fenn> to become immortal god-like beings?
08:11 < kanzure> heh
08:11 < fenn> next question
08:11 < poppingtonic> I said essentially the same thing to a dude yesterday, about transhumanism.
08:11 < kanzure> nope that was it
08:12 < kanzure> i should have mentioned cambrian genomic's vaginal yeast hacking stuff
08:12 < fenn> um, no
08:13 < kanzure> i am trying to optimize for ridiculous things to inform a 14 year old about
08:13 < poppingtonic> Transcriptic's robots, maybe?
08:13 < poppingtonic> http://transcriptic.com
08:13 < poppingtonic> .title
08:13 < yoleaux> The modern life science research platform - Transcriptic
08:14 < fenn> yeah robots are finally becoming feasible for normal people to acquire
08:14 < fenn> something about reagents and make-do
08:14 < yorick> fenn: well kanzure isn't that famous
08:14 < yorick> is he?
08:14 < fenn> famous?
08:15 < yorick> fenn: that a 14-year-old would email him for a school assignment
08:15 < fenn> how the hell should i know
08:15 < yorick> there is also https://experiment.com/projects/can-we-biologically-extend-the-range-of-human-vision-into-the-near-infrared which was pretty cool
08:19 < fenn> vitamin A1 restricted diet: check
08:23 < poppingtonic> mmm fish liver
08:23 < fenn> not sure why they decided to use an electroretinogram instead of just pressing a button when a NIR light was on
08:24 < fenn> anyway humans _can_ see NIR, but it gets washed out by other colors. if you use a congo blue filter goggles your eyes will adjust and see the red-end of the NIR spectrum
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08:44 < fenn> so how many guppies to i need to eat before the sunrise turns green
08:45 < fenn> also there are numerous "golden rice" type biohacks that use regular vitamin A; presumably the pathway is similar enough that an A2 variant wouldn't require massive metabolic engineering
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09:44 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYqkU1y0AYc
09:44 < yoleaux> Cory Doctorow: The coming war on general computation [28C3] - YouTube
09:44 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nypRYpVKc5Y
09:44 < yoleaux> DEFCON 20: Beyond the War on General Purpose Computing: What's Inside the Box? - YouTube
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10:34 < fenn> for people reading pdf papers on e-ink screens: http://willus.com/k2pdfopt/help/native.shtml
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11:20 < kragen> do you ever feel like you're already in this scenario? http://reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/2oghzg/x
11:20 < kragen> .t
11:20 < yoleaux> Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:20:29 UTC
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11:48 < delinquentme> FUCK man. holes are weird.
11:48 < delinquentme> currently diggging out of one
11:48 < delinquentme> and going through the resume is awesome for this.  About to interview at Invitae ... and its not until you look over the shit you've done and consider what a 3rd party might see in it
11:48 < delinquentme> that you can start to build that confidence back up
11:48 < delinquentme> too much interviewing with bullshit startups
11:50 < kanzure> unfortunately interviewing is mandatory in order to see actual market rates
11:50 < kanzure> although i have become good at very short interviews
11:51 < kanzure> last one was 8 minutes total and was successful
11:51 < fenn> "hey."
11:51 < fenn> "hey."
11:51 < fenn> "so, do i need to like, show up or anything?"
11:51 < kanzure> "nah dawg it's cool"
11:52 < fenn> *fist bump*
11:52 < kanzure> i don't think so, fenn.
11:53 < delinquentme> its more hygenic !
11:53 < delinquentme> you dont want to know where my hands have been !
11:53 < kanzure> well it was over the phone
11:54 < delinquentme> kanzure, I'm at the point where im almost ready to correct the interviewer
11:54 < kanzure> interviews are not a thing i would subject my worse enemies to
11:54 < kanzure> or even my mom
11:54 < delinquentme> my issue is i run up against CS people who have a specific lexicon for operations and while I might understand implementation ... I don't have the semantics
11:54 < kanzure> they are just pathetic and awful
11:54 < kanzure> yeah, no, those are not people you want to be working with
11:54 < kanzure> think of it this way,
11:54 < delinquentme> markov chain ... or state machine !?
11:54 < kanzure> if they treat people this bad in interviews, how do you think they treat people in general?
11:55 < delinquentme> idk its a recursive habit I think of knowing you're not a total failure
11:55 < delinquentme> being capable of learning
11:55 < kanzure> also read http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
11:55 < delinquentme> and then relentless brutalistic positivity when people do dumb stuff.
11:56 < delinquentme> yeah thats an awesome read
11:56 < delinquentme> also! did you see the post about the chinese guy with the DIY dialysis machine?
11:56 < delinquentme> that shit is SO heavy.
11:57 < kanzure> *worst enemies
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11:57 < delinquentme> hard_sciences = ['chemistry','physics','physicist','photonics','biology','genomics','astronomy','nanotechnology','solar','greentech','biofuels','math','mathematics','biohacking','nlp','drones','markov','levenshtein','euclidean','navier','assay','microfluidic']
11:57 < delinquentme> running KW searches on HN job posts ... any suggestions which I should add ?
11:58 < kanzure> you should just read the posts instead
11:58 < kanzure> then filter out users you hate
11:58 < delinquentme> there could be endless additional kws ... but
11:58 < kanzure> since most users post multiple times each month
11:58 < kanzure> you can quickly get down to a readable level
11:58 < kanzure> filter out balanced, for example, that'll cut out a lot of the posts
11:58 < delinquentme> this is less related to interviewing ... and more an interest of " whats the consensus HN startup stack ? "
11:58 < kanzure> your method is bad because it requires people to use good tags and words, which they don't
11:59 < delinquentme> its bad for a host of reasons
11:59 < delinquentme> but its not completely useless
11:59  * delinquentme single tear
11:59 < delinquentme> roflolol OK! back to work
11:59 < kanzure> heath has been looking at some bitcoin companies recently
11:59 < kanzure> you should bug heath
11:59 < fenn> what's "filter out balanced" mean?
12:00 < kanzure> there's this company called balance that thinks it pays well but they don't
12:00 < kanzure> "you should be honored to even get an offer for $60k because market rates are just, like, some concept man"
12:00 < kanzure> *balanced
12:00 < fenn> yeah and rent is just some concept too
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12:03 < kanzure> hmm maybe it wasn't balanced
12:06 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/pokemon-reverse-engineering-tools/issues/85
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12:15 < heath> related to the brief discussion on technological unemployment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx310zM3tLs
12:15 < heath> .title
12:15 < yoleaux> The wonderful and terrifying implications of computers that can learn | Jeremy Howard | TEDxBrussels - YouTube
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12:22 < heath> also related .title http://www.economist.com/node/21621800/comments#comments
12:22 < heath> .title
12:22 < yoleaux> Comments on The world economy: Wealth without workers, workers without wealth | The Economist
12:23 < fenn> boo! hiss!
12:24 < fenn> what size font would you say that is
12:24 < nmz787_i> heath: in that future, won't unemployement really just mean retirement?
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12:29 < heath> if the proposal of basic income is implemented where you live, maybe
12:31 < fenn> "We could change it now. Robots are doing all the work. Human beings -- all human beings -- could now be on perpetual vacation. That's what bugs me. If society had been designed for it somehow, we could all be on vacation instead of on welfare."
12:31 < fenn> there's no good concise quote unfortunately
12:32 < kanzure> your mistake is thinking of society as some giant amorphous entity that will respond to good/bad arguments
12:35 < nmz787_i> this would make a good movie
12:36 -!- supply is now known as poohbear
12:36 < fenn> france has a 35 hour maximum workweek, however " the main reason why French firms avoid hiring new workers is that French employment regulations around labour flexibility make it difficult to lay off workers during a poor economic period"
12:36 < nmz787_i> some jerks would be seen kicking/demeaning the robots
12:36 < fenn> and then robocop would bust in and shoot them all in the head
12:36 < fenn> the end
12:37 < nmz787_i> retired from retirement
12:37 < fenn> "you have been retired. permanently."
12:37 < kanzure> retirement is not a real idea
12:37 < kanzure> you don't cease being able to live at retirement
12:38 < nmz787_i> does it come literally from putting new treads on a tire?
12:38 < nmz787_i> in that sense it is like recycling
12:38 < fenn> .ety retire
12:38 < yoleaux> retire (v.): "1530s, of armies, "to retreat," from Middle French retirer "to withdraw (something)," from re- "back" (see re-) + Old French tirer "to draw" (see tirade)." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=retire
12:38 < nmz787_i> e.g. soylent green
12:38 < nmz787_i> dang
12:39 < kanzure> retirement probably became popular because people used to work in a single industry for an entire career, so they had to have these elaborate ceremonies to tell everyone else to not bug them anymore
12:39 < kanzure> i mean, before social security-enforced retirement concepts
12:39 < delinquentme> HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
12:39 < delinquentme> SOCIAL HACKING
12:39 < delinquentme> FUCK YES.
12:39 < fenn> down, boy
12:39 < delinquentme> r a w r
12:39 < kanzure> delinquentme: have you considered getting back on adderall?
12:39 < delinquentme> LOL
12:39 < nmz787_i> wha-ch wha-ch
12:41 < delinquentme> question: is there a non invasive method that I could use to dilate blood vessels ?
12:41 < nmz787_i> drugs
12:41 < fenn> vinpocetine
12:41 < fenn> suction
12:41 < delinquentme> my feet are freezing... and my torso is on fire
12:41 < nmz787_i> 'whole market is made of drugs'
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12:41 < delinquentme> #wtfBody
12:41 < nmz787_i> curl into a ball
12:42 < delinquentme> ROFL
12:42 < nmz787_i> do that yoga move where you put your feet in your arm pits
12:42 < delinquentme> wait im not sure if that was a joke
12:42 < delinquentme> LOLOL
12:42 < delinquentme> " the white chick " ?
12:42 < delinquentme> naturopathic*
12:43 < nmz787_i> http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Marrakech
12:43 < nmz787_i> "Mr. Burns wanted some opium and Smithers was going to buy it in the market. However, he was arrested for possession of opium and received 80 years in prison."
12:44 < nmz787_i> "Out of panic, Mr. Burns, names Homer the new owner of the plant. Homer reveals that it was a trick, which angers Mr Burns. As Homer’s first act as the new Boss he fires Mr Burns, and then throws him off the balcony onto the crowd, who proceeds to catch and flow him into the nearest Taxi. Burns then proceeds to travels to Marrakesh, Morocco where everything is made of drugs, with Smithers to buy opium."
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12:52 < nmz787_i> delinquentme: http://yogathletica.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Yoga-Bound-Staff-Pose-Hip-Opening-Twist-Foot-in-Armpit-Baddha-Yoga-Dandasana1.jpg
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12:54 < fenn> cold taint pose
12:54 < nmz787_i> I guess that is the extreme lower part of the torso?
12:54 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8738869
12:54 < yoleaux> TMSU is a tool for tagging your files | Hacker News
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13:01 < fenn> "Tags or folders - Aren't both of them mere kludges that we use when search isn't good enough?
13:01 < fenn> "sn't searching what we do when we don't know exactly where something is?
13:02 < kanzure> whoever you are quoting is very confused
13:02 < fenn> i am too
13:02 < TMA> kanzure: The idea of retirement in the sense of "state/country gives some amount of money to the elderly" orginated with Bismarck in Germany, iirc.
13:03 < fenn> i'd like to have the computer do document clustering and then label the cluster centers
13:03 < fenn> but this fails for things like compiled code obviously
13:03  * nmz787_i americanism: But Bismarck is in North Dakota
13:03 < fenn> or at least it would interpret things a lot differently than you'd expect based on the stated purpose of a given program
13:04 < TMA> kanzure: it was a cheap way to buy loyalty [retirement age was three years past the living expectance]
13:04 < nmz787_i> "The North Dakota State Capitol, the tallest building in the state, is in central Bismarck"   wow, only around 20 stories
13:05 < fenn> variance would seem to matter a lot
13:05 < TMA> nmz787_i: I am talking about the guy that city was named after.
13:05 < nmz787_i> TMA: yup
13:05 < heath> http://www.ubuntu.com/cloud/tools/snappy
13:05 < fenn> you end up paying anywhere from 0% to ~50% depending whether the variance is 0 or 100
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13:05 < heath> """
13:05 < heath> Announcing Snappy Ubuntu Core
13:05 < heath> A new, transactionally updated Ubuntu for the cloud.
13:05 < heath> Ubuntu Core is a new rendition of Ubuntu for the cloud with transactional updates. Ubuntu Core is a minimal server image with the same libraries as today’s Ubuntu, but applications are provided through a simpler mechanism.
13:05 < heath> """
13:06 < fenn> ugh please stop
13:06 < fenn> did they at least finish their phone OS yet
13:07 < kanzure> are you going to try tmsu
13:08 < nmz787_i> .wik junker
13:08 < yoleaux> "Junker (German: Junker, Dutch: Jonkheer) is a noble honorific, derived from Middle High German Juncherre, meaning "young nobleman" or otherwise "young lord" (derivation of jung and Herr)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junker
13:09 < nmz787_i> 'wazzup junker?'
13:09  * nmz787_i wonders if Sir J. Wellington has used that in lyrics
13:11 < TMA> fenn: I do not know the exact numbers, but it was basically free -- only negligible number of people received that
13:14 < TMA> fenn: while most of the work itself could concievably be done by robots, the people are not smart enough to program them and precise enough to build them maintenance free
13:15 < fenn> the vast majority of work is already done by robots
13:15 < nmz787_i> can I remove a BSD license comment if the file will only be used internally (is distribution within an organization considered redistribution?)
13:15 < fenn> we just don't call them robots because they don't look like sci-fi androids
13:15 < TMA> I was trying to program a model of a society that has "basic income" available so that the people can be on "vacation" indefinitely
13:16 < TMA> I got stuck at the market model
13:17 < fenn> you got stuck?
13:17 < TMA> yep
13:17 < fenn> how about this: pay 20 homeless people a dollar to participate in your game
13:18 < delinquentme> ^ presupposes that homeless people are logical actors
13:18 < fenn> instead of trying to write computer code or whatever you're doing
13:18 < fenn> well duh, people aren't rational either
13:18 < fenn> i bet a significant fraction of people wouldn't participate in a basic income economy either
13:20 < TMA> writing code is cheaper than repeated experiments -- and the parameters are more easily tweaked
13:21 < fenn> What does TMSU stand for?
13:21 < fenn> It stands for Tag My Shit Up.
13:21 < fenn> now why did i have to navigate more than three links to find that
13:25 < delinquentme> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZPECFQ4NhE
13:25 < delinquentme> fenn now sing it to the above tune.
13:26 < kanzure> .title
13:26 < yoleaux> The Prodigy - Smack My Bitch Up - YouTube
13:26 < fenn> i like the "merge tag" functionality, not so sure about queries like "year >= 2000 and year < 2010"
13:27 < nmz787_i> delinquentme: watch the cat version
13:27 < kanzure> .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1411.3140
13:27 < yoleaux> [1411.3140] Social media fingerprints of unemployment
13:27 < kanzure> "Recent wide-spread adoption of electronic and pervasive technologies has enabled the study of human behavior at an unprecedented level, uncovering universal patterns underlying human activity, mobility, and inter-personal communication. In the present work, we investigate whether deviations from these universal patterns may reveal information about the socio-economical status of geographical regions. We quantify the extent to which ...
13:27 < kanzure> ... deviations in diurnal rhythm, mobility patterns, and communication styles across regions relate to their unemployment incidence. For this we examine a country-scale publicly articulated social media dataset, where we quantify individual behavioral features from over 145 million geo-located messages distributed among more than 340 different Spanish economic regions, inferred by computing communities of cohesive mobility fluxes. We ...
13:27 < kanzure> ... find that regions exhibiting more diverse mobility fluxes, earlier diurnal rhythms, and more correct grammatical styles display lower unemployment rates. As a result, we provide a simple model able to produce accurate, easily interpretable reconstruction of regional unemployment incidence from their social-media digital fingerprints alone. Our results show that cost-effective economical indicators can be built based on ...
13:27 < kanzure> ... publicly-available social media datasets."
13:27 < fenn> before long you end up with a poorly implemented ad-hoc lisp
13:28 < kanzure> does it handle file movement?
13:28 < nmz787_i> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyz7Y1sphP0
13:28 < yoleaux> DIKUrevy 2009: Smack My Bits Up - YouTube
13:28 < kanzure> http://tmsu.org/
13:28 < nmz787_i> +1 eeepc
13:28 < kanzure> "ls "mp/queries/mp3 and big-jazz""
13:28 < kanzure> i hate this
13:28 < nmz787_i> meh, no custom lyrics, not as good as the cat version
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13:29 < fenn> you could mount it in . so instead it would be: ls queries/"mp3 and big-jazz"
13:29 < fenn> does it do spaces in tags?
13:29 < kanzure> i thin trying to hijack ls and other file system utils is a bad idea
13:30 < TMA> anyway is there an equation that for given utility function produces the demand curve / the production curve
13:30 < fenn> i think it's a great idea
13:30 < TMA> ?
13:30 < fenn> kanzure: you're not doing anything to ls; it's just a filesystem interface like /proc
13:30 < kanzure> yes but paths aren't paths anymore
13:30 < kanzure> now they're some other weird thing
13:30 < fenn> that's the whole point
13:30 < nmz787_i> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xiQoPaomvw
13:30 < yoleaux> Smack My Bitch Up Cat Style HD - YouTube
13:30 < kanzure> that is not the whole point
13:30 < fenn> is too
13:30 < kanzure> tags have existed outside of file systems since forever
13:31 < fenn> "TMSU was born out of frustration with the hierarchical nature of filesystems"
13:31 < kanzure> that's stupid
13:31 < kanzure> it should be about tagging files
13:31 < fenn> well how else are you gonna interact with them
13:31 < kanzure> tags
13:31 < fenn> why don't you use calibre tags then
13:31 < kanzure> whatdoyoumean?
13:31 < fenn> calibre supports tagging
13:31 < kanzure> go on?
13:31 < kanzure> calibre the big honking gui thing?
13:32 < fenn> well, presumably there's something awful about having to use a big honking gui thing
13:32 < kanzure> maybe there's a calibre command line tool that i am unaware of?
13:32 < fenn> instead of ls and friends
13:33 < fenn> calibre's command line tools are pretty wonky
13:35 < fenn> you can do something like `calibredb list` i guess
13:36  * fenn mumble git-annex mumble
13:37 < kanzure> wonky bad or wonky good?
13:37 < kanzure> i mean wonky can just mean "they don't work but their spirit is in the right place"
13:37 < fenn> wonky is always bad
13:38 < kanzure> have you tried jotmuch?
13:38 < fenn> yes
13:38 < kanzure> thoughts?
13:38 < fenn> i don't like how it conflates "archiving" with "take a snapshot" but i guess i can edit that part out
13:40 < fenn> also i want to be able to search for strings which may be in the body text or partial tags
13:40 < fenn> it's stupid to miss a bunch of files tagged "books" because you're searching tag:book
13:41 < fenn> er, bookmarks
13:41 < kanzure> yeah i don't have a policy yet on plurals so i just use book books and promise myself i'll decide later
13:41 < kanzure> which is of couse a complete lie
13:42 < kanzure> *course
13:42 < kanzure> most of my bookmarks have at least 5 tags, some have up to 30 tags ish
13:43 < kanzure> even with a minimum of 5 tags i am finding that i have very curious missing bookmarks for certain given tags
13:43 < kanzure> like i don't seem to have anything about "myelination"
13:53 < fenn> most of your bookmarks are bitcoin stuff anyway
13:54 < fenn> that's the main issue with tagging/bookmarking systems, you have all this stuff lying around already but it's inaccessible because you have to manually enter it into the system to be searchable
13:54 < kanzure> only 1006 are tagged bitcoin
13:55 < fenn> i know a guy who has been using the same tagging system for ~30 years and always has a DOS emulator open so he can keep running it
13:55 < kanzure> well, there's a good argument for 1114 bookmarks being bitcoin-related i suppose
13:55 < kanzure> out of 2220
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13:57 < fenn> it would be nice to have a "sort tags by size" functionality
13:57 < fenn> number of tagged files/bookmarks/whatever
13:58 < fenn> and "sort by recently used tags"
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14:01 < fenn> today i compacted my shell history and saved 30MB ram and several seconds load time per bash shell
14:03 < fenn> searching for "bash" and "ram" was a pointless exercise
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14:04 < kanzure> do you really need to load all bash history on every shell you open?
14:04 < kanzure> readline probably isn't best for that anyway
14:04 < fenn> that's what it does *shrug*
14:05 < kanzure> our fault for using bash anyway
14:05 < fenn> it's really not that much ram, but it adds up when you have 12 shells open
14:07 < fenn> tmsu should have a 'undo' command
14:07 < nmz787_i> "Time capsule buried by Samuel Adams and Paul Revere in 1795 is unearthed in Boston"    but why open it now?
14:08 < fenn> yeah launch that fucker to the moon
14:08 < fenn> better yet, on a trajectory out of the galaxy
14:08 < yorick> nmz787_i: they're putting it back afterwards
14:09 < yorick> nmz787_i: but there's been a water leak near it for 30 years to they want to see if it survived
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14:15 < nmz787_i> yorick: I read they're going to open it
14:15 < nmz787_i> isn't that sort of lame to put it back afterwards, like cheating or something
14:16 < nmz787_i> like playing hide&seek then peaking before your friends are done hiding
14:17 < fenn> no because in year 2200 they'll be able to clone paul revere from trace DNA
14:18 < yorick> nmz787_i: they're x-raying it anyways
14:19 < fenn> probably sooner than that actually
14:20 < yorick> they could do it right now except it'd be illegal
14:20 < fenn> in 2200 they'll be able to clone paul revere, grow him to adult size, implant memories, have a conversation and tea all before it's time for dinner
14:21 < fenn> of course they'll have to shoot him at the end to prevent the indignity of being a living theme park attraction
14:22 < fenn> groundhog day or something like that
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14:34 < fenn> "look — display lines beginning with a given string"
14:35 < fenn> don't think i've ever seen this one in the wild
14:35 < fenn> .wik Foochow
14:35 < yoleaux> "Fuzhou (Chinese: 福州; pinyin: Fúzhōu, [fǔtʂóʊ]; Cantonese: Foochow, Fuzhou dialect: Hók-ciŭ; also formerly Minhow) is the capital and one of the largest cities in Fujian province, People's Republic of China." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foochow
14:42 < nmz787_i> fenn: I mean putting it back after looking... you might contaminate Paul Revere with George Bush or something
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15:20 < nmz787_i> .dic text
15:21 < nmz787_i> .d text
15:21 < yoleaux> nmz787_i: Sorry, that command (.d) crashed.
15:21 < nmz787_i> .dict text
15:28 < nmz787_i> .ud text
15:28 < yoleaux> Verb To send a SMS message from one person to another via Mobile Phone (cellphone)  a message sent between cell phones.  1.  Synonym for a book, typically one for learning purposes, but can stand in f
15:28 < nmz787_i> .ud string
15:28 < yoleaux> loads of dicks tied together  A flexible wire like substance used mostly to tire things together.  to hang someone.  long 'thread' of ejaculate -perhaps with some 'pearls'  Sitting To Remember In Nudi
15:28 < nmz787_i> :O
15:28 < nmz787_i> I am sorry, I tried using a real dictionary command
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15:37 < delinquentme> fuckkkkkkkk
15:38 < delinquentme> ok so yeah call w invitae went well
15:38 < delinquentme> And I added their CEO on linked in -- w some social he added me back like 10 mins later
15:38 < delinquentme> SEND POSITIVE JUJU MY WAY <3
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15:45  * nmz787_i just thought of the hellen keller robot from futurama (I think)
15:46 < nmz787_i> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4huOrdIA6k
15:46 < yoleaux> Family Guy Binary Code - YouTube
15:46  * nmz787_i tears up with humor
15:48 < nmz787_i> .wik humours
15:48 < yoleaux> "Humorism, or humoralism, is a system of medicine detailing the makeup and workings of the human body, adopted by Ancient Greek and Roman physicians and philosophers, positing that an excess or deficiency of any of four distinct bodily fluids in a person — known as humors or humours — directly influences their temperament and health." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humours
15:49 < fenn> you must have an excess of phlegm
15:49 < kanzure> i refuse to send delinquentme any "juju" until he gets back on adderall
15:50 < kanzure> you have any idea how much of a menace i'd be off this? man.
15:50 < kanzure> 15:50 < Emcy> "The Tor project has revealed that one of its team has been subjected to “a sustained campaign of harassment for the past several months” and declared it will no longer tolerate such activity on the Tor network."
15:50 < kanzure> 15:50 < Emcy> er, can they do that
15:51 < fenn> i'm going home and taking my network with me
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15:54 < fenn> 'When blood is drawn in a glass container and left undisturbed for about an hour, four different layers can be seen. A dark clot forms at the bottom (the "black bile"). Above the clot is a layer of red blood cells (the "blood"). Above this is a whitish layer of white blood cells (the "phlegm", now called the buffy coat). The top layer is clear yellow serum (the "yellow bile")'
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15:55 < fenn> nmz787_i: it might be leukemia
15:58 < kragen> "buffy coat"?
15:59 < kragen> 19:54 < kanzure> interviews are not a thing i would subject my worse enemies to
15:59 < kragen> the weird thing about conversations like this is that i've always really enjoyed software job interviews
16:00 < kragen> although this may be in part because I always got a job offer after the interview
16:04 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:08 < fenn> "Sir Isaac Newton, in responding to questions from Leibnitz in a letter in 1677, concealed the details of his "fluxional technique" with an anagram:
16:08 < fenn> The foundations of these operations is evident enough, in fact; but because I cannot proceed with the explanation of it now, I have preferred to conceal it thus: 6accdae13eff7i3l9n4o4qrr4s8t12ux."
16:09 < ebowden> http://vimeo.com/72688703
16:09 < ebowden> https://experiment.com/projects/can-anle138b-delay-the-onset-of-genetic-prion-disease?s=discover
16:09 < fenn> .title http://vimeo.com/72688703
16:09 < yoleaux> 558-b81c437d-5284-46f0-a492-3f4e741be615.mp4 on Vimeo
16:10 < fenn> -_-
16:10 < fenn> i give up
16:11 < kanzure> kragen: yeah but weren't you surprised when i was talking about salaries?
16:12 < kanzure> anyone with even a microliter of brain matter would hire you for below market rates, for example
16:12 < kanzure> no matter how poorly the interview went
16:14 < fenn> how does "market rates" paradigm work with "10x productivity"
16:15 < kanzure> pretty poorly, at most you can get 3-5x pay, getting 10x pay is a real pain in the ass
16:16 < kanzure> although you could shift other things around
16:17 < kanzure> like, "well, i can't figure out how to get people to pay me $90k/mo, but i can at least claim that my ability to work remotely is worth maybe $40k of that"
16:17 < kanzure> "and being able to work my own hours whenever i please is maybe another $10k discount" hooray rationalizations
16:17 < fenn> you're assuming they want to hire you though
16:18 < kanzure> whoops sorry i'm talking about consulting/contracting
16:18 < fenn> this looks like a false statement to me: "anyone with even a microliter of brain matter would hire you for below market rates"
16:19 < kanzure> kragen?
16:19 < fenn> there are many reasons not to hire someone
16:19 < fenn> some would even say "since he's willing to work below market rates, he must not be any good"
16:21 < fenn> or "since he's willing to work below 10x rates, he must not be 10x"
16:22 < kanzure> oh, no, in general people are highly aware of extremely productive people working at below market rates
16:22  * fenn mumbles about one too many personal distributed object store proposals
16:22 < kanzure> and they are happy to pay at least market rate because that means they are more likely to secure a relationship where that person is getting more money than they had been (if for some reason they know how much the perso nwas previously making, of course) (which they shouldn't)
16:23 < fenn> yay secrecy
16:23 < kanzure> fishtubchain, a hyper-distributed blockchain of fishtubs geographically located in secret bank vaults and cat sanctuaries throughout the united states that was originally discovered by a bored archaeologist named buckminster fuller
16:24 < fenn> omg yes please
16:24 < fenn> can i have a hyperloop too
16:24 < kanzure> ask your uncle elon
16:24 < fenn> but he's already giving me the mars colonial transporter for christmas
16:24 < kanzure> yeah no he's lying to you kid
16:25 < fenn> cat sanctuaries is a little too true
16:25 < fenn> there were like 50 cats living behind my house in indiana
16:26 < kanzure> sorry, i had turned off my reality filters for a moment
16:27 < fenn> the cat habitat was destroyed when they built a "habitat for humanity" house :\
16:27 < fenn> will someone please think of the cats!!!
16:28 < kanzure> why is nobody angry about viruses killing 40% daily of sea surface algea
16:29 < fenn> david pearce is
16:29 < kanzure> i'm not sure anger is an emotion he is capable of experiencing
16:29 < fenn> well he's morally ethics-ed up
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16:32 < nmz787_i> i read about cat sanctuaries around portland recently
16:35 < fenn> "Crash-only software: it only stops by crashing, and only starts by recovering."
16:37 < nmz787_i> who can decode this binary's meaning http://imgur.com/fGmOzXC
16:37 < nmz787_i> hellen keller's schpeal translates to the character 'i'
16:39 < fenn> why are there arrows
16:40 < fenn> .py a=0b110110001111 ; print a, ord(a)
16:40 < yoleaux> SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
16:40 < nmz787_i> .py a=0b110110001111 ; print a, chr(a)
16:40 < yoleaux> SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
16:40 < nmz787_i> .py a='110110001111' ; print chr(int(a,2))
16:40 < yoleaux> ValueError: chr() arg not in range(256)
16:40 < fenn> string?
16:41 < fenn> oh that's the "source file"
16:41 < fenn> .py print 0b110110001111
16:41 < yoleaux> SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
16:41 < fenn> .py print "huh"
16:41 < yoleaux> huh
16:41 < nmz787_i>  .py print (0b110110001111)
16:42 < nmz787_i> .py print (0b110110001111)
16:42 < yoleaux> SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
16:42 < fenn> works on my local machine
16:42 < fenn> 3471
16:43 < fenn> i think on the chalkboard is a football play diagram
16:44 < nmz787_i> ooo
16:44 < nmz787_i> that makes this even harder for me, since I don't know foosball
16:46 < nmz787_i> http://www.cnet.com/news/doc-brown-finally-admits-funny-or-die-hoverboard-video-is-fake/
16:47 < fenn> nmz787_i: we've been over this already
16:48 < fenn> March 5, 2014
16:48 < nmz787_i> oh, huh
16:48 < nmz787_i> guess I missed the hype
16:49 < nmz787_i> like reading the end of a book first
16:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/human-like-cognitive-abilities/
16:58 < fenn> the "10 years" may seem confusingly optimistic to some people
16:59 < fenn> "Prefer implementations that can be analytically tested" this is bullshit
17:00 < fenn> if you can predict that it will/won't work, you don't need to estimate your probability of success
17:01 < fenn> also, it's undecidable
17:03 < kanzure> edit it then
17:03 -!- soylentbomb [~k@unaffiliated/soylentbomb] has quit [Quit: leaving]
17:04 < kanzure> i wont disown you for editing a wiki page
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17:08 < kanzure> heh 30 years
17:08 < kanzure> you know let's go even higher why not
17:08 < fenn> i typed 50 years first then thought better
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17:09 < fenn> whatever
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17:09 < fenn> the "AI predictions" paper from MIRI shows that people either go with 20 years, 100 years, or never
17:10 < kanzure> there should be one about simulations
17:10 < kanzure> (environment simulations)
17:10 < fenn> why
17:11 < kanzure> "don't make a limited physics simulation and expect your tests to mean anything"?
17:11 < fenn> well how "human-like" do you want it to be
17:11 < fenn> does it need to piss and brush its teeth
17:11 < kanzure> actually i don't,
17:12 < kanzure> i think i would be pretty happy with a general approach that would make things as dumb as a 100k neuron ant or a whatever million neuron mouse
17:13 < fenn> a mouse-like intelligence would appear to be more intelligent with rudimentary language hacked in
17:13 < fenn> like the tachikoma in GITS
17:13 < kanzure> also the reason why i am bothering with this sort of page/document is because it is extremely unfair of me to reject ai projects without first setting up limits/bounds/constraints or something
17:14 < kanzure> erm i mean, to reject all possible projects in that domain, since clearly i am okay with brain emulation, and things approximating brain emulation
17:14 < kanzure> i am not actually opposed to non-brain-emulation, i am just opposed to bad ideas
17:15 < fenn> i was evaluating it on the assumption that the category included brain emulation like things
17:15 < kanzure> hmm
17:16 < fenn> that's my plan anyway
17:16 < kanzure> i thought you were somewhat anti-brain-emulation?
17:16 < kanzure> anti-brain-emulation in terms of productive-worthwhile-approaches
17:17 < fenn> uh.. i think there are general areas of program-space that can work, and brain emulation is off to the edge of what's possible because it's so inefficient
17:17 < kanzure> "the development of brain emulation technology" is too inefficient?
17:18 < fenn> running the emulation would do a lot of pointless calculations
17:19 < kanzure> hm, well, so does my brain
17:19 < fenn> yeah but those atoms are being computed for free by the universe
17:20 < kanzure> the anthropic boogeyman strikes again
17:20 < fenn> just a good old fashioned lack of data
17:20 < fenn> no amount of neuroscience will tell us what's important or not
17:20 < kanzure> apparently people have trouble breeding octopus in captivity
17:20 < kanzure> so they should breed easier-to-breed strains methinks
17:21 < kanzure> *breed towards
17:21 < fenn> seems like that would have happened if it were possible?
17:21 < fenn> people have trouble breeding bacteria in captivity, except for the ones that they don't have trouble with
17:21 < kanzure> not sure, i don't think as many people are working on octopus as you'd think
17:21 < fenn> the vast majority of bacteria aren't culturable
17:21 < kanzure> like <100 people methnks
17:23 < fenn> you should talk to todd anderson http://octotod.net
17:24 < kanzure> i don't really see anything here
17:24 < fenn> yeah this looks broken
17:24 < fenn> anyway the man is obsessed with octopi and cuttlefish, and does neuroscience at some bay area university
17:24 < kragen> kanzure: yeah, most likely I was accepting totally lowball offers in a sense
17:25 < kragen> 00:22 < kanzure> oh, no, in general people are highly aware of extremely productive people working at below market rates
17:25 < kragen> I'm not sure I qualify as "extremely productive people".  I'm really struggling with getting this stock trading system into working shape
17:25 < kragen> and it's only like ten thousand lines of Java
17:26 < kanzure> did you write it?
17:26 < kragen> which would be a better excuse for having a hard time getting it working if I hadn't written all of it
17:27 < kanzure> well, what did you fail to anticipate ?
17:28 < kragen> I think I probably wrote it in an insufficiently stupid way
17:28 < kragen> which means that debugging it is stretching my capacity
17:28 < fenn> i think i see the problem
17:28 < kanzure> what sorta orderbook is it?
17:28 < kragen> also I didn't know anything about stock trading
17:28 < kanzure> oh that's probably bad
17:29 < kragen> my client has lots of experience with it, and we've been working closely
17:29 < kragen> so I've been learning about stock trading
17:29 < kanzure> are these options, contracts, "regular" trades?
17:29 < kragen> regular shares, although we'll probably be doing futures too
17:30 < kragen> but mostly the stupid bugs have been internal complexity of the system
17:30 < kanzure> disclaimer: i am presently procrastinating here instead of working on an orderbook application i've been helping to develop
17:30 < kragen> that's comforting to hear
17:30 < kragen> it makes me feel less alone in my incompetence and lack of discipline
17:31 < kragen> I'm not sure that's actually healthy for me :)
17:31 < kanzure> speak for yourself, my software works :)
17:31 < kragen> haha
17:31 < kragen> mine will too, soon.  it's just taking a lot longer than I was hoping it would
17:31 < fenn> kragen why on god's good green earth are you using Java?
17:32 < kragen> well, I wanted to be able to use the broker's protocol interface library instead of trying to reverse-engineer their undocumented wire protocol
17:33 < kanzure> what is their protocol?
17:33 < kanzure> oh their library for their undocumented protocol?
17:33 < kragen> some thing they cooked up themselves
17:33 < kragen> right
17:33 < kragen> they have options in C++, Excel, Visual Basic, and Java, of which Java seemed the least bad
17:33 < kanzure> zeromq over here :)
17:33 < kragen> C++ has its great merits but that's until you are debugging
17:34 < kragen> the sane thing to do in retrospect would have been to write a small Java shim that translated to and from zeromq or something similar
17:34 < kragen> but also
17:34 < kragen> we had had discouraging performance experiences last year with backtesting strategies written in Python
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17:34 < kanzure> so why are you making a trading engine that has to use some broker's library?
17:34 < kragen> we were spending more time waiting for the simulation runs to finish than we were spending modifying the code
17:34 < kanzure> brokers should be using your library
17:34 < kanzure> not the other way around
17:35 < kragen> that would be true if we had more money than the brokers, but we don't
17:35 < kanzure> was your python implementation using cython/swig/ctypes?
17:35 < kragen> no, although cython probably would have been a smarter direction to move for speedups than Java
17:36 < kanzure> yeah....
17:36 < kanzure> you can't even use jython
17:36 < kanzure> unless you're okay with ancient python 2.7 compatibility hell
17:36 < fenn> java can be plenty fast, but you still have to actually write the code
17:36 < kanzure> it's not even 2.7.x it's just 2.7 haha
17:38 < kanzure> fenn: i need more constraints on ai projects, please enter rant mode
17:38 < kanzure> most of the things on that page aren't even the usual rant-worthy stuff
17:38 < kragen> anyway, so I think the next step is probably to get the current Java mess running correctly and trading in real life, and then maybe replace it piecewise with Jython
17:39 < fenn> sorry my brain is soon to be pumpkin pudding
17:39 < kanzure> unfortunately jython is going to be a dead end for you unless you want to be maintaining jython upstream
17:40 < kragen> they said that before
17:40 < kanzure> and?
17:41 < kragen> someone decided to maintain it for a while, and it wasn't me
17:41 < kanzure> is that still happening?
17:42 < kragen> I'm sure it will happen again, even if it isn't happening at the moment
17:42 < kragen> neither Java nor Python is small enough for people to stop caring about connecting them together
17:43 < kragen> in terms of users, I mean, not in terms of language complexity, which is obviously a disadvantage in both cass
17:43 < fenn> "To request a copy of an accessible whitepaper describing the neurobiology of sleep and memory that supports the Sheepdog Sciences memory enhancement system, enter your information below"
17:44 < fenn> i guess this way they get to spam you with updates, instead of just linking to the paper
17:44 < juri_> https://events.ccc.de/congress/2014/Fahrplan/events/6417.html
17:45 < kanzure> .title
17:45 < yoleaux> Schedule 31. Chaos Communication Congress
17:45 < kanzure> argh
17:45 < kanzure> ccc can't even figure out good <title> text
17:46 < fenn> that would require utilizing their l33t sk1llz to map the conference schedule to page titles
17:47 < fenn> microwave safe kilns for melting aluminum. ... the lost PLA process.
17:48 < kanzure> clickbait http://www.sciencealert.com/these-are-some-of-the-most-beautiful-calculators-humans-have-ever-made
17:48 < fenn> oh, juri_ is presenting it
17:49 < juri_> indeed. ;)
17:49 < juri_> donations welcome. still trying to afford plane tickets.
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17:50 < fenn> hell of a time to be traveling
17:51 < kanzure> here is a rantworthy thing: linguists are awful and i hate them
17:51 < kanzure> and chomsky caused everything to get held back by at least 500 years
17:52 < kanzure> "First proposed by Noam Chomsky in the 1960s, the LAD concept is an instinctive mental capacity which enables an infant to acquire and produce language"
17:52 < kanzure> infants don't do that! argh
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17:55 < kanzure> timeline of infant development progress stuff in children http://www.parentingcounts.org/information/timeline/
17:57 < kanzure> oh wait, wrong page
17:57 < kanzure> "physical" "social" "learning" "communication" why are these separate
17:57 < fenn> it should be noted that chomsky has abandoned the idea of LAD in favor of Universal Grammar
17:58 < kanzure> that sounds even worse
17:59 < fenn> it's probably "not even wrong"
17:59 < kanzure> "proposing that the ability to learn grammar is hard-wired into the brain.[1]" yes because apparently everyone else thought it was the stomach
17:59 < kanzure> this makes me mad :(
18:00 < fenn> you're missing the point
18:00 < kanzure> "There are theoretical senses of the term Universal Grammar as well (here capitalized). The most general of these would be that Universal Grammar is whatever properties of a normally developing human brain cause it to learn languages that conform to universal grammar (the non-capitalized, pretheoretical sense). Using the above examples, Universal Grammar would be the innate property of the human brain that causes it to posit a difference ...
18:00 < kanzure> ... between nouns and verbs whenever presented with linguistic data."
18:00 < kanzure> innate...
18:00 < kanzure> pretheoretical...
18:02 < kanzure> i am not sure which specific thing to point out in a rant, though
18:02 < fenn> so you're blaming linguists for the failed dreams of symbolic AI?
18:02 < kanzure> hmm, that's an interesting idea
18:03 < kanzure> i am not opposed to blaming them in part for symbolic ai
18:03 < kanzure> i will certainly blame them for distracting people who would be working on ai-stuff
18:03 < fenn> it would be just as easy to blame neuroscience for not pointing out how much important stuff the symbolic people were skipping
18:03 < kanzure> oh what do you mean? not enough social visits?
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18:04 < fenn> i dunno, failure as pop-science promoters
18:04 < kanzure> linguists do seem to have lots of propaganda out there
18:05 < kanzure> certainly a disproportionate amount
18:05 < fenn> there arent so many breathless fictional accounts of "the mysteries of motor coordination"
18:05 < fenn> or whatever the neuroscience equivalent of asimov-style ai stories would be
18:07 < fenn> pumpkin time
18:08 < kanzure> "Ancient humans would expend considerable amounts of energy just typing their prey to death. They could outlast any other animal at typing. They would just keep on typing until the animal fell over dead from exhaustion."
18:11 < fenn> i surrender to your superior typing stamina
18:15 < kanzure> an interesting calibration exercise would be a similar rant page for flight
18:20 < kanzure> nevermind, that sounds boring and useless
18:29 < kanzure> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/projects/human-like-cognitive-abilities.mdwn?id=4eff560e28e26c85eb9357064f66a5adf7e55778
18:29 < kanzure> at minimum
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18:56 < kanzure> hmm maybe it's not fair to blame the linguists because they were probably attracted to the turing test
18:59 < kanzure> "If the Turing test is applied to religious objects, Shermer argues, then, that inanimate statues, rocks, and places have consistently passed the test throughout history"
19:03 < kanzure> "anytime" tests http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~dld/Publications/2010/HernandezOrallo+Dowe2010ArtificialIntelligenceJArticle.pdf
19:04 < kanzure> "The measurement should handle any level of intelligence and any time scale of the system. It must be able to evaluate inept and brilliant systems (any intelligence level) as well as very slow to very fast systems (any time scale)."
19:18 < kanzure> the text after "A figurative trace of the algorithm is as follows. Initially, with a very small τ , the agent has no time to perform an action" is interesting
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19:25 < nmz787> neither freecad nor heekscad seem as intuitive as kicad, though kicad was unintuitive in it's own ways
19:26 < nmz787> got cadquery installed in freecad though
19:27 < juri_> i like implicitcad.
19:27 < juri_> ;)
19:29 < kanzure> i forgot about this spurious correlations collection site http://www.tylervigen.com/
19:30 < nmz787> http://www.parametricparts.com/docs/quickstart.html
19:31 < nmz787> juri_: looking
19:31 < kanzure> there are also examples in the cadquery repo
19:32 < nmz787> "We can abstract away the stupid work humans do in designing objects. We can build DSLs. We can unit test objects and put them on github."    what are DSLs?
19:32 < nmz787> cause .ud will likely not be nice
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19:37 < kanzure> domain specific languages
19:37 < kanzure> DSLs are often not the right idea
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19:48 < nmz787> juri_: is this available in Python?
19:50 < nmz787> seems it is some type of haskell?
19:53 < juri_> it is all haskell.
19:54 < juri_> and i've been documenting and fixing bugs.
20:00 < kragen> it would be nice to have some kind of concise language we could write code in today and have some assurance it will mean the same thing in 20 years
20:00 < nmz787> how can I compare it to CGAL and openCASCADE?
20:00 < nmz787> as in the normal geometry error stuff
20:01 < kragen> I think kicad is for PCB design, while FreeCAD is for mechanical or mold design
20:01 < nmz787> ah, http://www.implicitcad.org/faq#implicitcad-and-openscad
20:01 < nmz787> kragen: yeah but matter can be defined in layers like a PCB if you wanted to
20:01 < kragen> I don't think you can design PCBs with FreeCAD or mechanical parts with kicad
20:02 < nmz787> i am designing microfluidics
20:02 < nmz787> it is very similar to PCBs
20:02 < kanzure> svg
20:02 < kanzure> we keep telling you to use svg but you don't :(
20:02 < nmz787> except that you can have smoother transitions between 'layers'
20:03 < nmz787> rather than jus vertical vias like kicad has now
20:04 < nmz787> and it has a layer limit currently that might be relatively low limit for # layers
20:04 < nmz787> around 32
20:04 < kanzure> you don't need layers in svg
20:04 < nmz787> for 'copper'
20:04 < kanzure> you can just merge svg files together
20:04 < nmz787> yeah but you get design rule checking
20:04 < nmz787> and the autorouter base with freerouting
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20:04 < kanzure> what design rule checking?
20:05 < nmz787> connectivity
20:05 < kanzure> i am talkin about svg for microfluidic part design
20:05 < nmz787> ratsnest view
20:05 < kanzure> *talking
20:05 < delinquentme> " They also contain the vasodilator histamine,  "
20:05 < delinquentme> So Im reading patents
20:06 < delinquentme> anyone have suggestions how to fast forward to the gritty interesting bits ... when there are no diagrams ?
20:06 < nmz787> kanzure: using this or something else? https://pypi.python.org/pypi/svgwrite/
20:06 < kanzure> oh i don't care, maybe cairo if necessary
20:08 < nmz787> kanzure: do you know about DSN something something design spectra...
20:08 < kanzure> don't think so
20:08 < nmz787> it is what you export in kicad to talk with freerouting
20:08 < kanzure> fenn or nmz787 is more likely to know this
20:08 < nmz787> and freerouting then exports it back out, and you import in kicad
20:10 < delinquentme> Oh also ! Is it possible to patent something which uses someone elses first in class mechanism ... IN the case which i expand the functionality ?
20:11 < nmz787> i think you would have to get licensing
20:19 < kragen> implicitcad sounds like it could be a reasonable thing if it had a UI
20:19 < kragen> it's not like openscad has much UI
20:21 < nmz787> DSN http://sm-7.net/upload/PCB/Autorouters%20and%20autoplacers/Cadence_specctra/Design_Language_Reference.pdf
20:21 < nmz787> that is an old version though
20:21 < nmz787> the version I use at work wasn't able to be opened with freerouting
20:22 < nmz787> I haven't actually looked at the freerouting code yet, but I did get it to 'compile' and run in netbeans
20:24 < nmz787> https://github.com/upverter/schematic-file-converter/blob/master/upconvert/writer/specctra.py
20:25 < nmz787> kanzure: fenn: does svg allow for layers?
20:25 < kanzure> depends on what you consider a layer
20:29 < nmz787> well if we had two fluidic components, and we wanted to use them together, what do we do?
20:30 < nmz787> and there might be some above another
20:32 < kanzure> above means what... 3d?
20:33 < kanzure> two microfluidic components on a 2d plane can be merged into the same svg file by copying the part and pasting it at whatever grid coordinates you want
20:33 < kanzure> (obviously this copy/paste will be happening in software and would not be manual)
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20:39 < nmz787> yes in 3d, in that case, you would want to design things so they lined up, but in manufacture they could either be thin-film (lithography) layers with some greyscaling (which would define the etch depth), or in the case of deposition you would want to slice however thick the device could handle
20:39 < nmz787> s/thin-film/etch/
20:40 < kanzure> well, exposure time can be an attribute of different regions or something
20:40 < nmz787> so you might want to design in 3D, but export greyscale layers
20:41 < nmz787> for a top-down view you can merging layers or turn them on/off like in photoshop/gimp
20:41 < kanzure> always with you is it about guis
20:41 < nmz787> i meant conceptually
20:41 < kanzure> hear you nothing that i say?
20:41 < kanzure> how do you get so big eating food of this kind?
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20:42 < kanzure> before you can create a gui you must have the correct data model
20:42 < kanzure> otherwise your gui will be a pile of steaming garbage
20:42 < nmz787> no no I am not talking guis!
20:42 < nmz787> I promise!
20:43 < kanzure> for the purposes of 2d design you could probably consider dxf and svg interchangeable
20:49 < nmz787> view-source:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Simple_sine_wave.svg
20:49 < nmz787> that isn't terribly nice
20:50 < kanzure> it is definitely not meant to be human-readable
20:50 < kanzure> you would use cairo or pysvg to write files
20:50 < nmz787> i guess they have other crap like the grid displayed on that too thoug
20:50 < kanzure> svg was not designed to be human-readable
20:51 < nmz787> hah, this is using turtle http://interactivepython.org/courselib/static/thinkcspy/Labs/sinlab.html
20:51 < nmz787> i don't see anything for :cairo sine wave    or :pysvg sine wave
20:52 < nmz787> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-list/2007-May/msg00198.html
20:52 < kanzure> .py 040
20:52 < yoleaux> 32
20:52 < kanzure> .py 080
20:52 < yoleaux> SyntaxError: invalid token (<string>, line 1)
20:54 < nmz787> last commit Nov 15 2012 https://code.google.com/p/pysvg/source/list
20:55 < nmz787> I'm not so sure about these tests https://code.google.com/p/pysvg/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk%2FpySVG%2Fsrc%2Ftests
20:56 < kanzure> they should be comparing output with expected output but i don't see that happening there
20:57 < nmz787> this seems more like 'examples'
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21:04 < jrayhawk> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPFOkr1eE7I is quite good
21:05 < jrayhawk> .title
21:05 < yoleaux> The human use of human beings. - YouTube
21:07 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPFOkr1eE7I&t=11m
21:07 < kanzure> first few minutes look like crap
21:11 < kanzure> man i hate videos
21:11 < jrayhawk> yeah, this is basically audio-content-only
21:11 < jrayhawk> something to listen to while doing other things
21:11 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPFOkr1eE7I&t=25m
21:14 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPFOkr1eE7I&t=42m
21:17 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPFOkr1eE7I&t=50m blah blah blah use alibaba not amazon
21:18 < jrayhawk> i really should've prefaced my link with "people who are not kanzure: "
21:19 < jrayhawk> man, he really breaks down in the presence of stupid questions
21:19 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPFOkr1eE7I&t=59m20s typical metamed pitch
21:21 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPFOkr1eE7I&t=68m hey look he's advocating buying capital equipment
21:21 < kanzure> he has said something possibly redeeming!
21:22 < kanzure> ugh
21:22 < kanzure> he owes me +70 minutes
21:37 < kragen>  ha
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