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04:42 < archels> why the devil is Taylor & Francis mailing me on my personal e-mail account that I now have access to Connection Science till Dec 31st?
04:43 < archels> just... out of the blue
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05:43 < archels> http://www.mauve.plus.com/opensourcehw.txt
05:43 < archels> "Why open-source hardware is hard"
05:46 < kanzure> "“Our proposed use of seasteading for medical research,” says Allison, “will be designed to supplement the FDA and shift some of the regulatory burden away from their overworked team and to a more agile regulatory option. If properly organized and with careful design, seasteading has the potential to alleviate some of the stress on regulatory agencies by taking on medical research … Simply stated, I think we can mirror the ...
05:46 < kanzure> ... beneficial aspects of existing review structures and combine them with a lean, agile seastead venture.”"
05:46 < kanzure> "The FDA, founded in 1906, has held a monopoly over the production of regulations in the US medical field for more than a century, and the citizens they are charged with serving need them to be challenged by offshore competitors to reinvigorate its mission. "
05:47 < kanzure> "Nothing can match the awe and power of our own bureaucracy."
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06:17 < kanzure> "Proof-of-concept: Deterministic SSH (ed25519) key generation from a master secret + key handle"" https://github.com/mithrandi/ssh-key-generator
06:17 < kanzure> "If you use the same keypair to access someaccount@somehost and otheraccount@otherhost, someone who observes that both accounts have the same public key for login knows that the two accounts (most probably) belong to the same person. Sometimes this is undesireable for privacy reasons, but the only way to avoid it is to generate two different keypairs for use with the two different hosts. Generating a keypair is not hard, but managing ...
06:17 < kanzure> ... large numbers of keypairs like this (eg. one per host) individually is difficult and tedious to do; this proof-of-concept shows that you can have the multiple keypairs without needing to store / manage / back up anything more than a single "master key". Meanwhile, someone looking at the public keys can not tell that the keys are related, so privacy is retained."
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12:02 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c
12:03 < kanzure> although i would rather see her writing articles about the brain parts she keeps
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12:12 < kanzure> tmux ctrl-b z (zoom) is the best thing since sliced bread
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13:10 < fenn> do you usually have multiple panes up in a single terminal?
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13:12 < fenn> "With readline, ^A is beginning-of-line, ^B is backward-char
13:12 < fenn> With the default settings, to go to the beginning-of-line you have to – ^A a inside a screen session – while ^A would be enough inside a tmux session. Now, to go one char backward, you have to – ^B within screen – ^B b within tmux
13:12 < fenn> Which of these two actions do you do the most? I bet this is the first!
13:12 < fenn> Now, as a few others, I’v longed solved this problem, by using M-w as the prefix (and M-a and M-q for nested and nested-nested screen-or-tmux session)
13:12 < fenn> As a bonus, (this is actually why I originally started looking for a new prefix), you may also find these prefixes are easier&quicker to use than either ^A or ^B!"
13:13 < fenn> the windows key is just sitting there staring at me mockingly
13:16 < kanzure> fundrawtransaction https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5503
13:16 < kanzure> this is a useful thing
13:17 < fenn> fun draw the funnest drawing program around
13:18 < fenn> how is this different from just creating an unfunded transaction?
13:18 < kanzure> this selects unspent outputs to use as the input to the transaction you are creating
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13:35 < delinquentme> so IO limited processes...
13:35 < delinquentme> throw redis at it right?
13:42 < archels> New Myo Releases - Including Raw Data!
13:42 < archels> "The biggest addition to the Windows and Mac SDKs is the ability to capture raw EMG data using the onEmgData() event."
13:42 < archels> well, that's about the best response to a consumer outcry ever
13:43 < archels> I know they already did have something in the pipeline when that happened, but they sure spun it around nicely
13:46 < fenn> that should be the first thing they published
13:46 < fenn> all the fancy algorithms come next
13:47 < fenn> don't congratulate someone for dragging their feet until people complained about basic functionality
13:52 < fenn> "All an attacker needs in order to exploit Misfortune Cookie is to send a single packet to your public IP address. No hacking tools required, just a simple modern browser."
13:52 < fenn> (assuming you have a vulnerable router)
13:54 < fenn> "esearchers have distinctly detected approximately 12 million readily exploitable unique devices connected to the Internet"
13:54 < archels> number of ISPs that are going to write to their customers: 0
13:55 < fenn> maybe someone could do a remote exploit that shows a warning page
13:55 < nmz787_i1> delinquentme: or use threads
13:56 < kanzure> see bitcoin-dev convo
14:01 < fenn> i'm going to have to see a lot of transaction subgraphs before i really understand bitcoin privacy implications
14:01 < fenn> the coinalytics stuff didn't make a lot of sense unfortunately
14:02 < fenn> misfortune cookie affects router "models by D-Link, Edimax, Huawei, TP-Link, ZTE, and ZyXEL," and 200 others
14:03 < fenn> also a device vendor could remotely patch their device by using the exploit?
14:04 < delinquentme> lololol sooo im about to take a hard up negotiations call
14:04 < delinquentme> to calm ones self : start at the physiological level.
14:04 < fenn> put on your suit
14:04 < delinquentme> deep breaths, heating pad on feet, warm tea
14:05 < fenn> .wik hachimaki
14:05 < yoleaux> "A hachimaki (鉢巻, "helmet-scarf") is a stylized headband (bandana) in Japanese culture, usually made of red or white cloth, worn as a symbol of perseverance, effort, and/or courage by the wearer." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachimaki
14:05 < fenn> magnesium citrate or beta blockers
14:06 < delinquentme> how about household items?
14:06 < delinquentme> is that in something I can drink?
14:07 < fenn> a banana has some magnesium
14:07 < fenn> epson salt bath lasts a few hours
14:08 < fenn> also it's best to stand up
14:08 < delinquentme> when taking calls?
14:08 < fenn> yeah
14:08 < fenn> unless you're invalid or something
14:09 < fenn> the point here is to be alert and confident, but not in panic mode
14:10 < fenn> caffeine helps with alertness, standing and power poses helps with the confidence, magnesium reduces adrenaline effects
14:11 < fenn> also did you read the kalzumeus article on negotiating?
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14:11 < fenn> .g kalzumeus salary negotiation
14:11 < yoleaux> http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
14:12 < fenn> probably too long to read now
14:13 < fenn> "You know what people find persuasive? Their own words. People love their own words. When you talk to them, you should use their own words."
14:13 < fenn> "do not start negotiating until you already have a Yes-If. (Yes-If we agree on terms.) Do not start negotiating from No-But. (No-But we might hire you anyway if you’re really, really effing cheap.)"
14:16 < kanzure> i think the coinalytics stuff may make more sense if they gave you access to actual graphs
14:16 < kanzure> rather than just blog posts
14:16 < kanzure> (i have only seen thier blog posts)
14:17 < kanzure> delinquentme: if you want you can phone me up and we can talk salary 512-203-0507
14:17 < fenn> http://www.zdnet.com/article/coin-sized-nuclear-batteries-to-revolutionise-electronics/
14:17 < delinquentme> kanzure, actually that would be huge -- you can chat now?
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14:18 < kanzure> yep
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14:32 < nmz787_i1> fenn: oO this article seems pretty good
14:33 < nmz787_i1> great timing as I may be able to negotiate some in the next week or two
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14:34 < fenn> i just filter stuff and regurgitate it; i am a nauseated sponge
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14:43 < kanzure> as for transaction graphs i usually just click around on blockchain.info or webbtc.com
14:44 < kanzure> if you would like a full blockchain dataset i could make one available for you to play with
14:48 < kanzure> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/monkey-see-monkey-speak-video/
14:48 < nmz787_i1> someone recommended reading this re: software engineering... I haven't read it yet http://www.ucalgary.ca/icic/files/icic/49-IJSSCI-1201-CogFoundSE.pdf
14:51 < nmz787_i1> that krak.wav didn't have any sound in it that sounded like 'crack' to me
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15:00 < kanzure> "It's basically a specialization of the base rate fallacy. If, say, idiots can still be right by chance 10% of the time, and experts are right 90% of the time, but only 10% of the population are experts, then lucky idiots will make up fully half of the population of people who are right."
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15:01 < kanzure> from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8773149
15:08 < kanzure> "I'm representing one of the competitor payloads, lettuceonmars. We originally wanted to send algae too, but had to rule them out because of payload specifications. More info about our porjct ca be found here: "
15:09 < kanzure> via Ravasz
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16:11 < fenn> “This is the first time that a professional linguist has tackled the data on call combinations in wild monkeys.”
16:11 < fenn> for shame
16:12 < fenn> shameful if it's true, shameful if he was wrong and said it anyway
16:14 < kanzure> in conclusion, we're screwed
16:15 < fenn> was there actually a video?
16:15 < kanzure> dunno, sorry
16:18 < fenn> lettuce is the most useless food you could pick
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16:49 < kanzure> hacker news says "already been done for dogs" http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/FarsideDogTranslator.jpg
16:52 < fenn> Heyyyyyyyy...
16:57 < kanzure> "the great list of things that you thought people had already taken care of, but turns out nobody has done, updated for the poor souls who may come across this in 20 or 40 years"
16:57 < fenn> i'm afraid to look
16:58 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:58 < kanzure> nah, we'd probably have to write it
17:04 < fenn> omg what an epic fail on the part of blockchain.info http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2onm5r/blockchaininfo_security_disclosure/cmosmbn
17:05 < kanzure> they are not known for their skillz https://people.xiph.org/~greg/21mbtc.png
17:10 < fenn> iirc this is the exact same crypto fail that let people sign PS4 games/install linux again
17:11 < fenn> not using a random nonce for ECDSA
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17:17 < kanzure> i have a really bad idea and i hate myself for having this idea
17:18 < kanzure> i don't know what this salary-tithing trend is really called, but people seem to do that
17:18 < fenn> which salary-tithing trend
17:18 < kanzure> and singinst used to spend a ridiculous amount of effort shaming everyone into donating 50% of their salaries towards anti-ai research
17:18 < kanzure> "because this is the most important importantness you will ever have influence on, in the history of forever"
17:18 < fenn> well, potentially
17:18 < kanzure> (i don't even know if charitynavigator covers these schemes)
17:19 < kanzure> i was writing an email to reason@fightaging.org about this, but then decided against sending this straight to him, because he keeps secrets
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17:19 < kanzure> and uh, the reason why i was typing to him was because of a stupid grg thread
17:19 < kanzure> i think grg is filtering my emails, there should be at least one email from me in that thread, but whatever
17:19 < kanzure> anyway, the awful idea goes like this:
17:19 < kanzure> someone should put kickstarter-style campaigns together for salary-tithing-style campaigns
17:20 < kanzure> e.g. get a group of people to send 40% of their salaries only if $400M is reached or whatever
17:20 < kanzure> er, $400M/year
17:20 < fenn> i guess i don't see the point of making it a recurring cost
17:20 < kanzure> hopefully this would be implemented not in the name of charity but in the name of projects that need to get done
17:20 < delinquentme> you're convincing people ti give up 40% of their income?
17:21 < kanzure> no
17:21 < kanzure> i am just reporting about that
17:21 < fenn> recurring costs leads to waste instead of fixing stuff
17:21 < fenn> see any federal agency for example
17:22 < kanzure> my point though is that, as much as "send 40% of your salary to singinst" exists (and it's not singinst's idea by far), group-style "only if everyone else does it" hasn't been used on that idea yet
17:22 < fenn> so this is just kickstarter with a recurring donation
17:23 < kanzure> i hate donations
17:23 < fenn> is it not a donation?
17:23 < kanzure> this is also why i hate myself for even talking about this trend
17:23 < kanzure> no i just hate donations
17:23 < fenn> some kickstarters are basically product launch with early reservations
17:23 < kanzure> well you're the one that said donation
17:24 < fenn> you could have a similar service where you sign up for fair trade beard razors or whatever
17:24 < kanzure> oh shit i said donating
17:24 < kanzure> but that was about singinst
17:24 < kanzure> so you can't call me on that
17:25 < fenn> i dont see anything wrong with the idea of donations in general
17:25 < fenn> i wish people would do at least the same amount of research they do for buying a consumer product
17:26 < fenn> there are a lot of corrupt "charities" that just embezzle 99% of the money, but you'd never know without doing research on them
17:26 < kanzure> there are many reasons why donations are a bad idea (perhaps the most recent one that i've stumbled into is "fuck your free shirts, we're trying to start a t-shirt economy and you're killing our businesses by injecting free crap into our economy.")
17:27 < fenn> oh noes free stuff, call the libertarian police
17:27 < kanzure> only if you pay for the phone call
17:27 < fenn> i hope you realize how dumb that sounds, reading this on your linux-powered computer
17:28 < kanzure> t-shirts are not software
17:28 < kanzure> not yet, anyway
17:29 < fenn> there's a difference between a (tax-funded) subsidy and a charity
17:29 < fenn> also technological innovation can reduce costs to zero
17:29 < fenn> these things can all reduce revenue, or they can increase it
17:30 * fenn shrugs
17:30 < kanzure> shrug, another reason i am
17:30 < kanzure> hey don't shrug at my shrug
17:30 < fenn> hey man i invented shrugging, you're infringing my social communication patent
17:31 < fenn> method of conveying apathy in ascii text stream
17:31 < kanzure> if you are going to flood people with free stuff, flooding them with useful things like free software, cnc machines and the science ark would be much better than just consumer goods
17:31 < fenn> you're missing the point entirely
17:32 < fenn> the t-shirts are advertising for the charity, cleverly hacked into cognitive biases that say "a shirt is useful!" and get people to advertise for them unwittingly
17:32 < fenn> someone had to pay for the shirt at some point
17:32 < fenn> that shirt cost comes out of their advertising budget
17:32 < kanzure> the t-shirts are advertising for the charity? when they send the t-shirts to $crapcountry?
17:33 < fenn> oh, that's a different situation. in that case the shirts are literally a donation in kind
17:33 < kanzure> what situation did you think i was talking about
17:33 < fenn> or recycling, if you're cynical
17:33 < fenn> the situation where they send you swag
17:33 < kanzure> oh, that's just annoying
17:34 < fenn> ok i see where you're coming from now
17:35 < fenn> unintended consequences of "the white man's burden" (for lack of a better phrase)
17:35 < kanzure> there's also some rant to be had about supply/demand/pricing and donations not being linked to market efficiency
17:35 < kanzure> although donations are often linked to "market(ing) efficiency" hehe aren't i clever, i'll go sit down now
17:36 < fenn> how do you type standing up? :)
17:36 < kanzure> desk happens to be correct height
17:36 < kanzure> it's pretty nice for run-by typing and ranting
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17:37 < fenn> wrt the t-shirt economy, that's a problem with income inequality and trade imbalance
17:37 < fenn> if t-shirts were worth something in $donating_country they probably wouldn't be giving them away wholesale
17:38 < kanzure> they should be trying to bootstrap a stable t-shirt printing industry (it's not like screen printing is black magic these days)
17:38 < fenn> but t-shirts would still not be worth anything in $donating_country and the trade imbalance would persist
17:38 < kanzure> wait why did i mention printing
17:38 < fenn> even though $receiving_country has a t-shirt production business
17:38 < kanzure> printing is after you have t-shirt
17:39 < fenn> whatever
17:39 < fenn> most t-shirts are made in bangladesh
17:40 < fenn> they at least have an export economy there
17:41 < fenn> anyway i agree that giving people capital goods is a better use of your charity dollars
17:41 < fenn> assuming they want it and can use it
17:41 < fenn> something about a replicator being used as a goat milking stool
17:42 < fenn> out of cartridges the milkmaid said
17:43 < fenn> an e-beam metal powder sintering machine on the ISS would have to be spinning to create centrifugal force to settle the dust
17:44 -!- Quellvisk [~Quellvisk@gateway/tor-sasl/quellvisk] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:44 < fenn> hello Quellvisk
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17:44 < fenn> was it something i said
17:44 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:45 < fenn> Quellvisks (quell='kill, crush completely' visk='move quickly') are - or rather, were, since they're all extinct by now (see below) - huge and crushingly stupid herbivorous ruminants
17:51 < fenn> http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ yesss
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17:56 < jrayhawk> haha ""
17:57 < fenn> Good riddance, Goxchain!
17:58 < jrayhawk> http://txti.es/ i like his captcha
17:58 < fenn> at least it tells you to leave it blank
17:58 < fenn> i've been classified as a robot because i put shit in fields that weren't labeled
17:59 < fenn> how does the "show more options" button work?
18:00 < jrayhawk> same way as every other button?
18:00 < fenn> hm ok nevermind
18:00 < fenn> same way as every other button before 2000
18:01 < jrayhawk> i assume you've seen how the CGI standard works
18:01 < fenn> yes
18:01 < fenn> i was confused because the url didn't change
18:02 < fenn> and it loaded/displayed really fast so i thought it was the same page
18:07 < fenn> only accepts lowercase letters (a-z), numbers (0-9), and dashes (-). If you put anything else in there, txti will change it.
18:07 < fenn> that's an odd decision, as punctuation is generally considered helpful
18:08 < fenn> oh that's the url
18:11 < kanzure> 17:17 < dgenr8> mempool art, 500+ tx all invalidated by a single respend http://i.imgur.com/ZTKAuqz.png
18:11 < kanzure> 17:47 < dgenr8> ah here it is... https://github.com/weilu/bitcoin-tx-graph-visualizer
18:13 < fenn> wtf kind of image url is this: https://camo.githubusercontent.com/6ea7433b519f66576c487ae4d038b9209eb51c86/68747470733a2f2f7261776769746875622e636f6d2f7765696c752f626974636f696e2d74782d67726170682d76697375616c697a65722f6d61737465722f6578616d706c652f7472616e73616374696f6e732e737667
18:13 < kanzure> they can't host content on github.com anymore because Daeken
18:16 < fenn> obviously i missed something
18:16 < kanzure> also this is an svg file and i think the filename might be related to svg things
18:16 < fenn> it's a ridiculously long hash
18:16 < kanzure> Daeken did some proof-of-concepts for embedding html and js inside images that gets executed by most modern browsers
18:16 < kanzure> so various cross-domain cookie-hijacking session-hijacking html5-js-api implications
18:17 < fenn> "let's parse images for js just in case"
18:17 < fenn> what the bloody fucky
18:17 < kanzure> see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4209052
18:17 < kanzure> "A PNG that's interpreted as HTML and loads itself as compressed JavaScript"
18:18 < fenn> is it just messing with the mime-type in the header?
18:19 < jrayhawk> the w3 doesn't care about security and it's impossible for anyone to simultaneously comprehend every w3 standard, so we get undefined emergent properties of standards that vendors can only write ad-hoc policy fixes to as they're discovered
18:19 < fenn> i mean i understand that images can contain other files, but why the fuck would a browser load html data from an image
18:19 < fenn> in an ![]()
tag no less
18:19 < kanzure> because the browser renders almost any html it sees
18:19 < kanzure> no the ![]()
tag you are seeing is inside the image
18:20 < fenn> i'm not seeing any ![]()
tag (though i believe this works on other browsers)
18:20 < kanzure> -Vœi¼jawh
IDATxœ]TÛnã6Ú
18:20 < fenn> nope
18:21 < kanzure> another technique is http://demoseen.com/windowpane/nufl0wer.png.html
18:21 < kanzure> about http://daeken.com/superpacking-js-demos
18:21 < fenn> PNG IHDRIDATx]TÛ...
18:21 < fenn> hmm this didnt paste right but whatever
18:22 < kanzure> "Rule #1 of shrinking demos: removing a byte becomes more difficult every time you remove a byte. It starts off trivial and runs very quickly into a brick wall."
18:24 < jrayhawk> Daeken: can you add ;charset=UTF-8 to your Content-Type header?
18:25 < jrayhawk> 'Nicolás Alvarez' seems like a funny name
18:26 < kanzure> 18:18 < kanzure> so what sort of regular rate of transaction-invalidation do you see in your mempool?
18:26 < kanzure> 18:19 < dgenr8> only 10-20 a day http://respends.thinlink.com
18:26 < kanzure> 18:21 < dgenr8> a few weeks ago there was another pattern. only 50 or so txes, but arranged in a dazzling self-referential mess
18:30 < fenn> maybe it was a trading site that got a stale block
18:34 < fenn> that superpacking js in images thing could be big trouble for malware-infected-website scanners
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18:34 < fenn> the js can encrypt the malware, or at least scramble it enough that simple pattern matchers don't see anything bad
18:35 < kanzure> i dunno if the js has access to content outside the image actually, i haven't tried
18:35 < fenn> it doesn't have to; it can just contain an entire webpage
18:35 < fenn> inside the "image"
18:36 < kanzure> http://blog.sucuri.net/2014/02/new-iframe-injections-leverage-png-image-metadata.html
18:36 < kanzure> hrmm not quite the same thing
18:37 < kanzure> "This last technique is called PNG Bootstraping and is pretty standard practice in the demoscene and creative coding scene focusing on size optimization." hehe
18:38 < kanzure> "In retrospect, the dynamic favicon trick seen in Defender of the Favicon ( also from 2008 ) was abused much quicker, in only 2 years, to phish people using tabnapping."
18:39 < kanzure> "store your data in the number pi" https://github.com/philipl/pifs
18:39 < kanzure> i thought this was a joke until i noticed there seems to be people actually using this
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18:40 < fenn> hey i came up with that independently
18:44 < fenn> Arithmetic Coding!
18:45 < fenn> wasnt there an altcoin like this
18:46 < fenn> "why use a hash function when we can just use pi, it's random right?"
18:46 < kanzure> at this point there's basically a law that says there already exists an altcoin for every single bad idea you can possibly imagine
18:46 < kanzure> see http://mapofcoins.com/
18:46 < fenn> i need more classes of quotes, sarcastic quotes, scare quotes, verbatim quotes, paraphrase quotes...
18:47 < kanzure> "Power and timing side channels for Strong Physical Unclonable Functions and their efficient exploitation" http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/851.pdf
18:48 < fenn> One coin to rule them all, One coin to find them, One coin to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
18:49 < kanzure> oh how clever -_-
18:50 < fenn> it should start way before 2008
18:50 < fenn> even checks are a sort of cryptocurrency
18:51 < kanzure> er what
18:51 < fenn> bank notes
18:51 < kanzure> huh?
18:52 < fenn> the security features are based on gravure/guilloche or some kind of engine turning unique set of gear ratios
18:52 < kanzure> go on
18:52 < fenn> well that's basically a private key
18:52 < kanzure> hehe http://retractionwatch.com/2014/12/19/elsevier-retracting-16-papers-faked-peer-review/
18:52 < kanzure> "Sixteen papers are being retracted across three Elsevier journals after the publisher discovered that one of the authors, Khalid Zaman, orchestrated fake peer reviews by submitting false contact information for his suggested reviewers."
18:53 < kanzure> aww "editors have learned to be more skeptical of reviewer details provided by authors, especially contact details not connected to institutions"
18:54 < kanzure> "If someone recommends a reviewer, we suggest [editors] verify the email address against SCOPU"
18:54 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_lathe
18:54 < fenn> The lathe was able to generate intersecting and interlacing patterns of fine lines in various shapes, which were almost impossible to forge by hand-engraving. They were used by many national mints.
18:55 < kanzure> "A “small minority” to scientists could be translated as 1% or 5%. 1% or 5% of 12.5 million is 125000 and 625000 papers, respectively."
18:55 < kanzure> "In my opinion, based on quite a few stories related to Elsevier, a deep distrust of Elsevier and its editorial integrity, has now set in. And, to cover all 12.5 million papers, Elsevier has hired ONE “full-time staff member with a PhD in physics and history as a managing editor to do the grunt work on cases like this”? Something is really, really wrong with this picture."
18:55 < fenn> you can submit your own reviewers? who thought that was a good idea
18:55 < kanzure> haha
18:56 < kanzure> "hindsight is 20/20"
18:58 < kanzure> could it be possible that scientists legitimately don't have any better ideas than conventional papers for communicating ideas
18:58 < kanzure> i really can't think of an alternative explanation that doesn't sound completely crazy
18:58 < kanzure> oh right, not incentivized to fix things(?)
18:58 < fenn> that's more like it
18:58 < kanzure> no alternative is particularly obvious though
18:58 < fenn> um, how about the www
18:58 < kanzure> more of the same
18:59 < fenn> more what?
18:59 < kanzure> okay, more accessible i guess, but you are still writing papers
18:59 < fenn> my point is the www was invented by scientists for scientists to communicate data and ideas
19:00 < fenn> "we" are still stuck in the paper mindset even with ridiculously flexible tools at our disposal
19:00 < kanzure> i suppose i should be glad that they aren't all converting their ideas into superlong videos
19:01 < kanzure> i better not poke that bear
19:01 < fenn> or pdf files with embedded executable whatevers
19:02 < fenn> i like the idea of something like engelbart's zooming hierarchical interface
19:02 < fenn> where you have an abstract and table of contents, and the subheadings expand when you click on them
19:02 < fenn> when everything is expanded you have the raw data, lab notebooks, commentary, everything
19:02 < kanzure> sounds like some terrible contraption invented by borges
19:03 < fenn> yes it is potentially infinite
19:03 < kanzure> "you read the sentence, but then you realize it's a book and ted nelson is laughing at you"
19:03 < kanzure> meh
19:03 < fenn> but it's also just a webpage
19:04 < fenn> this channel is potentially infinite but it's still just an irc channel
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19:05 < fenn> the structure and language of a scientific paper has changed a lot since the 1600s
19:05 < kanzure> not many alternatives available
19:05 < kanzure> "all concepts must be submitted as executable code that gets uploaded to the massive science ai, or else" wont work
19:07 < fenn> i could suggest some but you'd hat eme
19:07 < fenn> ascii text has staying power
19:09 < kanzure> at least within math, everything should have importable models and functions
19:09 < kanzure> well, nearly everything
19:09 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-121-223-157-226.lns2.bat.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:09 < fenn> but then it would be code!~
19:09 < kanzure> can't have that
19:09 < fenn> did i mention i hate hieroglyphics
19:11 < fenn> a big seduction of math is you can be lazy and abuse your reader by not explaining everything, like what the letters mean
19:11 < fenn> then you get to say "behold, the succinctness of my equation"
19:11 < fenn> even though it's not really reproducible
19:12 < fenn> and any compiler worth its salt would throw an error
19:15 < fenn> has anyone done a bitcoin key encoding in tengwar yet
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19:16 < maaku> why would you want to?
19:16 < fenn> i don't know
19:17 < fenn> chinese characters would probably be better
19:17 < kanzure> maaku: i was thinking about which constraints i would want to impose on a project if i was going to pretend to try to implement something ai-like, and these are the rules i figure are important http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/human-like-cognitive-abilities/
19:17 < kanzure> maaku: can you think of any additional constraints that should be imposed
19:18 < fenn> crypto stuff all kinda looks like this to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:One_Ring_inscription.svg
19:19 < maaku> kanzure: strike AI, that sounds like generally good advice for any project ;)
19:19 < kanzure> oh
19:20 < kanzure> well, i intended it to be more ai-specific
19:20 < kanzure> surely there are additional constraints that ai projects should have that other projects should not
19:20 < fenn> deep strike AI, for long-range assault in hostile environments
19:21 < fenn> .wik deep strike
19:21 < yoleaux> "An attack aircraft (also called a strike aircraft or attack bomber) is a tactical military aircraft that has a primary role of attacking targets on the ground or sea, with greater precision than bombers, and which is prepared to encounter stronger low-level air defenses." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_aircraft
19:22 < kanzure> seems like there probably should be ai-specific project rules
19:22 < kanzure> although now i am failing to come up with any reasons
19:22 < fenn> sounds like begging the question, cart before the horse thinking
19:22 < kanzure> huh?
19:23 < fenn> ging why should there be rules?
19:23 < fenn> s/ging//
19:23 < kanzure> well, let's broaden this to be about also brain emulation software development
19:23 < fenn> pick one
19:23 < kanzure> and there are clearly some things that are totally inappropriate/wrong to be doing when doing brain emulation development
19:23 < kanzure> like cyc
19:23 < kanzure> cyc would be a wrong thing to be doing
19:24 < fenn> cyc is not brain emulation
19:24 < kanzure> correct
19:24 < kanzure> that is a very good reason why cyc should not be a part of that development effort
19:24 < fenn> it's a semantic database of common knowledge
19:24 < maaku> something more AI specific but along those lines... i would say have an architectural grounding in some sort of analytical theory
19:24 < kanzure> as opposed to a grounding in what?
19:25 < maaku> too many ai projects are of the sort 1) do something low level at scale, 2) ..., 3) strong ai will "emerge"
19:25 < fenn> proof of convergence
19:26 < maaku> (machien learning and neural network people seem to fall pray to this especially)
19:26 < kanzure> hmh
19:27 < kanzure> -h
19:27 < fenn> in machine learning we had to show that the optimization function converged; this was done by showing that the kernel was convex by taking the double derivative...
19:27 < fenn> it dredged up a lot of calculus i had forgotten and was a pain in the ass with zero utility
19:29 < fenn> it seems arrogant to believe you can know the outcome of a system you don't understand
19:29 < maaku> fenn: i understand there is plenty of theoretical backing to machine learning. not the point.
19:30 < fenn> it's a very linear, low complexity field of math
19:30 < maaku> the fallacy people fall into is saying "this construct can learn any classification problem", "i theorize that the brain is just 50 billion of these constructs", "therefore, if I had 50 billion of these at scale, that's all i need!"
19:30 < fenn> it only gives interesting results because there's a lot of variables to tweak
19:31 < maaku> you also need to connect those 50 billion things in a specific way, and that's where the magic is...
19:31 < fenn> i'm not sure if "eureqa" counts as machine learning or not.
19:31 < kanzure> now rant about "deep learning"?
19:31 < kanzure> (word2vec and such)
19:31 < fenn> deep learning is just more of the same, piled higher and deeper
19:31 < fenn> (literally)
19:31 < maaku> kanzure: no i don't intend to do that. deep learning is an important advance
19:32 < maaku> but it's also not all there is to say as far as intelligence goes
19:32 < fenn> the brain has a lot of other things besides neocortex
19:32 < fenn> deep learning probably accurately models what happens in the neocortex
19:33 < fenn> but it would never feel, or hunger for something, or focus, or remember what happened 3 seconds ago
19:35 < maaku> right
19:36 < fenn> word2vec feels like cheating because it skips the whole visual processing part
19:37 < fenn> and the auditory processing part of reading
19:38 < kanzure> "Morphometry of human cerebral cortex microcirculation: General characteristics and space-related profiles" http://ftp.tuebingen.mpg.de/pub/kyb/bweber/papers_db/2008/Lauwers/Neuroimage%202008%20Lauwers.pdf
19:41 < kanzure> why hasn't todd uploaded 3d models and data dumps at low/high resolution to his serverz
19:41 < kanzure> isn't this something he should be doing
19:41 < kanzure> he owes us for like, stuff
19:42 < kanzure> he owes us for our moral support :p
19:43 < fenn> go todd, woo
19:43 < fenn> we're out of peanuts over here
19:45 < kanzure> "In a companion paper (Lorthois et al., Neuroimage, in press), we perform the first simulations of blood flow in an anatomically accurate large human intra-cortical vascular network (~ 10000 segments), using a 1D non-linear model taking into account the complex rheological properties of blood flow in microcirculation."
19:46 < kanzure> "This model predicts blood pressure, blood flow and hematocrit distributions, volumes of functional vascular territories, regional flow at voxel and network scales, etc."
19:46 < fenn> jeez this guy in #bitcoin has 256GB of RAM
19:46 < kanzure> my laptop has 32 GB..
19:46 < fenn> i guess that's small potatoes compared to supercomputers but still, i'm jealous
19:51 < fenn> i have a bag of 1MB ram sticks that i haven't figured out what to do with yet
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20:12 < kanzure> hmm.
20:14 < kanzure> oh i suppose i should add "no emergence" to the list
20:14 < kanzure> but that's sort of covered by hand waving
20:21 < kanzure> "but what about the experience of actually holding a book in your hands? you can't get that over the net" - batman beyond filling your head with lies since 1998
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20:22 < fenn> a book is probably the worst example they could have picked
20:22 < fenn> .wik strange days
20:22 < yoleaux> "Strange Days is the second album by American rock band The Doors, released in September 1967. It was a commercial success, initially earning a gold record and reaching #3 on the Billboard 200 albums chart. The album also yielded two top 30 hits and eventually a platinum certification." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_days
20:22 < fenn> huh
20:23 < fenn> .wik strange days film
20:23 < yoleaux> "Strange Days is a 1995 Americanscience fiction action thriller film directed by Kathryn Bigelow. Co-written and produced by her ex-husband James Cameron and co-written by Jay Cocks, it stars Ralph Fiennes, Angela Bassett, Juliette Lewis, Tom Sizemore, Vincent D'Onofrio, and Michael Wincott." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Days_(film)
20:23 < fenn> bah
20:27 < kanzure> in this episode, batman beats up a hyperintelligent gorilla because nobody wants a gorilla walking around town
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20:30 < fenn> racist
20:31 < fenn> i'm running out of faux indignation
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20:40 < kanzure> "must be hot in that suit" "you get used to it" and he tells jokes
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20:48 < kanzure> wut https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-braincard-powered-by-a-neural-network-chip
20:49 < kanzure> "Neuromorphic Chip with 1024 artificial neurons"
20:49 < fenn> is that supposed to be a lot
20:50 < kanzure> "'re looking to raise at least $200k to start manufacturing in volume, which will make the BrainCard as cheap as possible. "
20:50 < kanzure> i don't think so, tim
20:50 < fenn> something like this shouldn't be on indiegogo
20:50 < kanzure> right. definitely fucked up.
20:50 < fenn> he can't deliver if doesn't make the goal, so where does the money go?
20:50 < kanzure> http://neuromorthings.com/
20:51 < kanzure> ugh "In this mode the BrainCard acts as a ‘Right’ brain hemisphere for image/pattern recognition and the CPU device acts as a ‘Left’ brain hemisphere for procedural/logic & communications."
20:51 < fenn> oh i guess they have 1000 prototypes already which is just about $200k at $199 each
20:52 < kanzure> 1024 neurons isn't going to do much
20:54 < kanzure> "we'd like to crowdsource our research and development through you!" because you can't figure out what to do with them
20:55 < kanzure> "FPGA (Xilinx Spartan 6 – XA6SLX16-2CSG324C) with up to 14,579 logic elements"
20:56 < fenn> i feel like if it did anything useful they would have demos
20:57 < kanzure> right.. and a non-hardware implementation for demonstration purposes maybe, "it does this, but now imagine that happening 1000x faster"
20:58 < fenn> but 1000x faster gets you nothing because its inputs aren't changing
20:58 < fenn> if they could switch between 100 sets of 1024 neurons every second that might be useful
20:59 < fenn> that's almost bee-level
20:59 < kanzure> that seems like something a gpu would be better at
20:59 < fenn> yes
20:59 < fenn> really the hardware should be able to do more
21:00 < fenn> a gpu is more general purpose than a hardware neuron simulation
21:00 < kanzure> i strongly doubt these are biologically-accurate neurons too
21:00 < kanzure> probably just the minimum model
21:00 < fenn> for a given area of silicon, you should be able to fit more simulated neurons on an asic than a gpu
21:01 < fenn> it's probably just a neural net
21:04 < fenn> ok useless day completed
21:05 < kanzure> that's a lousy way of going about life
21:06 < fenn> i liked meredith's article on weird nerds
21:06 < kanzure> i wrote a few mountains of code, wrote specs, tests, and pretended to be a leet haxor
21:07 < fenn> i ate coconut yogurt and baked brownies
21:08 < fenn> i guess that alt-m screen switching will probably save me from getting carpal tunnel
21:08 < kanzure> i also picked a fight with an ayn rand immortalist so that was a mistake
21:09 < kanzure> (grg crap)
21:09 < fenn> ayn rand's head was frozen and stored on the secret nazi moon base
21:10 < kanzure> nah his argument was literally "Objectivism is the only way that it is possible to see that government funding of life extension is non-optimal"
21:10 < fenn> i don't care who is funding it as long as someone is
21:10 < kanzure> uh, s/extension/extension research/ of course
21:11 < kanzure> (and that's about when i had my terrible idea)
21:12 < fenn> all that free science grant money is wrecking our science economy!
21:12 < kanzure> yes
21:13 < kanzure> well, lots of other things are too
21:13 < fenn> if only the illuminati elite were in charge...
21:13 < kanzure> like intellectual property law
21:13 < kanzure> and broken incentive models that don't work like you'd want
21:13 < fenn> (i was kidding, if it weren't obvious)
21:13 < kanzure> it
21:13 < kanzure> is not
21:13 < kanzure> (standing..)
21:13 < fenn> for the record, i will piss on ayn rand's grave for naming her shitty philosophy "objectivism"
21:14 < kanzure> go find her
21:15 < kanzure> "Valhalla, NY"
21:15 < fenn> there's even a video tour
21:15 < fenn> .title youtu.be/OGgwyW6GNrI
21:15 < yoleaux> Ayn Rand Grave - YouTube
21:17 < fenn> fitting name for a cemetery town
21:17 < fenn> high school mascot is the fighting valkyries
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21:19 < kanzure> "Machine leanring: The high-interest credit card of technical debt" https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en/us/pubs/archive/43146.pdf
21:21 < fenn> is this just saying "keep it simple, stupid"
21:22 < kanzure> still reading
21:23 < kanzure> "In [7], dependency debt is noted as a key contributor to code complexity and technical debt in classical software engineering settings. We argue here that data dependencies in machine learning systems carry a similar capacity for building debt. Furthermore, while code dependencies can be relatively easy to identify via static analysis, linkage graphs, and the like, it is far less common that data dependencies have similar analysis ...
21:23 < kanzure> ... tools. Thus, it can be inappropriately easy to build large data-dependency chains that can be difficult to untangle."
21:24 < fenn> the heroku people had some stuff to say about making sure old code continues working by defining interfaces strictly and static linking (or whatever equivalent is for scripting languages)
21:26 < kanzure> "Or suppose that for efficiency a particular signal will no longer be computed; are all former consumers of the signal done with it? Even if there are no references to it in the current version of the codebase, are there still production instances with older binaries that use it? Making changes safely can be difficult without automatic tooling."
21:26 < kanzure> "A remarkably useful automated feature management tool was described in [6], which enables data sources and features to be annotated. Automated checks can then be run to ensure that all dependencies have the appropriate annotations, and dependency trees can be fully resolved. Since its adoption, this approach has regularly allowed a team at Google to safely delete thousands of lines of feature-related code per quarter, and has made ...
21:26 < kanzure> ... verification of versions and other issues automatic. The system has on many occasions prevented accidental use of deprecated or broken features in new models."
21:28 < fenn> i'm not really following this article
21:29 < fenn> are they talking about how long to cache intermediates?
21:29 < kanzure> "we have a bunch of experience and you should listen to us"
21:29 < fenn> wow great, now please explain your wisdom in english
21:30 < fenn> a few concrete examples would do wondersf
21:30 < kanzure> they probably can't talk about proprietary google machine learning thingies
21:35 < fenn> it's like they are from a different world that happens to overlap some of the same words we use
21:36 < kanzure> their description of 1000 unused codepaths is basically a real thing that happens
21:36 < fenn> "it was found possible to rip out tens of thousands of lines of unused experimental code paths."
21:37 < fenn> that has nothing to do with machine learning, that's just bad software engineering practices
21:39 < kanzure> this article is mostly about software engineering ("technical debt")
21:40 < fenn> i guess "paying technical debt" is a bizarro-world term for "refactoring"
21:41 < fenn> jeez they even cite Fowler
21:42 < maaku> kanzure: maybe one more constraint: there is no single magic silver bullet which gives general artificial intelligence
21:42 < fenn> evolution!
21:42 < fenn> and fish!
21:43 < kanzure> now for your daily dose of "totally motivated reasoning" http://decentral.ca/what-the-data-says-this-is-going-to-escalate-quickly/
21:43 < maaku> maybe this reflects my own biases, but while a special-purpose-everything AI doesn't work (as mentioned), neither does the "one single universal rule" approach
21:43 < kanzure> sponsored by ray kurzweil's wig
21:43 < fenn> .wik salmon of wisdom
21:43 < yoleaux> "The Salmon of Knowledge (Irish: bradán feasa) is a creature figuring in the Fenian Cycle of Irish mythology. (It is sometimes identified with Fintan mac Bóchra, who was known as "The Wise" and was once transformed into a salmon.)" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_of_wisdom
21:44 < kanzure> maaku: if i had a program that was intelligent, then is that a magic silver bullet?
21:44 < maaku> kanzure: talking about the insides of the program
21:45 < kanzure> i think that i would argue that there seems to be a general cognitive architecture "conserved" across species that seems to indicate all known brains operate roughly the same way
21:45 < kanzure> i am having trouble, sorry, i just am i guess (probably 'cause i'm tired)
21:45 < maaku> any AI project with a chance at success needs to be somewhere in the middle ground -- it ivery likely from both AI history and neurological structure that general intelligence consists of multiple modes of thinking, each with strengths and weaknesses, integrated in some way
21:45 < kanzure> software is close to magic anyway or something
21:46 < maaku> yeah i think we're talking past each other
21:46 < kanzure> if you are arguing that "no single method will magically work", then how would anything have a chance of working?
21:46 < kanzure> we are probably talking past each other, hehe
21:46 < fenn> he's identifying a trend in the unfounded pronouncements of past AI researchers
21:47 < kanzure> i'm with you so far
21:47 < fenn> "neural networks will solve everything" or "lambda calculus is god's gift to mankind"
21:47 < kanzure> how about something like, "only make claims backed up by evidence"
21:47 < fenn> you mean an existence proof? (ala constructivism)
21:48 < maaku> i'm talking about a common failure mode, where a would-be AGI developer shows how neural net update rule X, or cellular automata Y, or technobable gizmo Z is _technically_ capable of learning or expressing any computation
21:48 < kanzure> ah i see.... yeah the computational reductionism has been annoying for sure
21:48 * kanzure glares at wolfram
21:48 < fenn> .wa the meaning of life, the universe, and everything
21:49 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
21:49 < maaku> right. wolfram, kurzweil, the NARS guy (wang? i forget his name and too lazy to google)
21:49 < JayDugger> Not even a Douglas Adams quote?
21:49 < fenn> such a let down
21:49 < kanzure> wolfram probably thinks he's better than douglas adams
21:49 < kanzure> okay, cheap shot
21:49 < JayDugger> Good point. He has cause.
21:49 < maaku> so, therefore, (this is where they go wrong), all we need is X, Y, or Z running on enough computing power, etc.
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21:50 < kanzure> yeah i am highly skeptical of "if only we had more computing capacity"
21:51 < maaku> -or- X, Y, Z attached to a proper perceiption system, or whatever supporting component they think is holding us back
21:51 < maaku> or a big enough Cyc database, etc.
21:51 < maaku> like i said, it might expose my biases, but I think the reasoning component itself might have quite a few different components to it which are not reduceable to one single principle
21:52 < maaku> and due to past failures I tend to write off anybody who thinks they've discovered The One True Base Computation
21:53 < maaku> at least not in a constructivist way
21:54 < maaku> it's kinda like saying "I just discovered all computation can be reduced to a network of NAND gates. All we need to do is build trillions of NAND gates!"
21:54 < kanzure> this is a weird thing: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/Evolution%20of%20probabilistic%20consensus%20in%20digital%20organisms.pdf
21:55 < kanzure> i am curious if you have a pre-baked rant about things like http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/Understanding%20evolutionary%20potential%20in%20virtual%20CPU%20instruction%20set%20architectures.pdf
21:59 < kanzure> this seemed like an interesting direction but some of his implementation decisions were bizarre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tierra_(computer_simulation)
21:59 < fenn> maaku isn't that true though
21:59 < kanzure> "Tierra is a computer simulation developed by ecologist Thomas S. Ray in the early 1990s in which computer programs compete for central processing unit (CPU) time and access to main memory. In this context, the computer programs in Tierra are considered to be evolvable and can mutate, self-replicate and recombine. Tierra's virtual machine is written in C.[1] It operates on a custom instruction set designed to facilitate code changes and ...
21:59 < kanzure> ... reordering, including features such as jump to template[2] (as opposed to the relative or absolute jumps common to most instruction sets)."
21:59 < maaku> kanzure: rant? it looks like interesting work
22:00 < kanzure> "The basic Tierra model has been used to experimentally explore in silico the basic processes of evolutionary and ecological dynamics. Processes such as the dynamics of punctuated equilibrium, host-parasite co-evolution and density-dependent natural selection are amenable to investigation within the Tierra framework. A notable difference between Tierra and more conventional models of evolutionary computation, such as genetic algorithms, ...
22:00 < kanzure> ... is that there is no explicit, or exogenous fitness function built into the model. Often in such models there is the notion of a function being "optimized"; in the case of Tierra, the fitness function is endogenous: there is simply survival and death."
22:00 < kanzure> maaku: sure, sorry, i classify many things as rants
22:01 < fenn> thats a terrible screenshot of tierra
22:02 < fenn> better screenshots http://web.stanford.edu/class/sts129/Alife/html/Tierra.htm
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22:02 < fenn> a lot of the dynamics centered around jumping ahead in the memory map and building structures that benefitted you after the jump
22:03 < maaku> kanzure: so my planned architecture involves sort-of gp learning computational frames using MOSES : http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search
22:04 < kanzure> none of the implementations of evolutionary computation look good to me
22:04 < maaku> having an instruction set suitable to gp learning is an important detail. it'll be interesting to see what this group learned (I saved the PDF for later review)
22:04 < kanzure> none of them seem to allow for the sorts of accidental shit that happens in the real world
22:04 < maaku> kanzure: yup. that's why evolutionary search is not the One Technique To Rule Them All
22:04 < kanzure> well, i mean, the evolutionary search implementers got lazy
22:05 < fenn> no it just means GA simulations are too low rez and their fitness functions suck
22:05 < kanzure> ehhhh
22:05 < kanzure> prove it
22:05 < fenn> evolution happened
22:05 < fenn> we are here now because of it
22:06 < fenn> how is that not a silver bullet
22:06 < maaku> MOSES is pretty good in that regard. The key takeaway from MOSES was that it needed to have a program description language that was specially crafted to have certain properties in order for the generated programs to be succinct ana analyzable
22:06 < maaku> fenn: so?
22:07 < maaku> it's not even clear that evolution leads to intelligence
22:07 < fenn> ok not necessarily "one technique to rule them all" but it does at least provide an existence proof of a silver bullet algorithm (however inefficient)
22:07 < maaku> there's a lot of anomolies around how homo sapiens evolved
22:07 < fenn> maaku: are you doubting that you are in fact intelligent? or some sort of divine intervention? or what?
22:07 < maaku> ok scratch that. your misundstanding is simpler
22:08 < maaku> i'm not talking about the process for creating intelligence, i'm talking about how the intelligence works
22:08 < fenn> is there a difference?
22:08 < maaku> "evolution" describes how the human brain came to be, not how it works
22:08 < maaku> if i want to make a brain, "evolution!" is not an answer
22:09 < maaku> not any more than "randomly assign transistor gates, check if it is intelligent, repeat."
22:09 < fenn> if your MOSES built an AI would you say it was MOSES
22:10 < fenn> evolution is not simply random though
22:10 < fenn> bah
22:11 < fenn> bruteforcing passwords is quicker with a markov chain than simply enumerating in binary
22:11 < fenn> likewise, evolution finds quicker ways to adapt
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22:12 < fenn> one of these adaptations is "intelligence"
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22:12 < fenn> intelligence adapted "artificial intelligence"
22:13 < fenn> i was going to say something about transposons and gene cassettes
22:13 < fenn> but i think it's time for bed
22:14 < JayDugger> Good night.
22:14 < maaku> fenn: i'm not talking about using MOSES to build me an AI
22:14 < maaku> i'm talking about using MOSES as a component inside of an AI I design, for the purpose of learning new things in specific types of context
22:15 < maaku> good night
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