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--- Log opened Tue Dec 23 04:24:48 2014
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05:45 < kanzure> hmph
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07:10 < chris_99> awh paperbots not 'ere :(
07:12 < archels> libgen and/or beg
07:12 < archels> :)
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07:14 < chris_99> managed to find it actually, a paper that says 0.075% alcohol in the blood, is good for problem solving
07:14 < kanzure> i think 0.075% anything in the blood might do that
07:15 < kanzure> have you tried with cocaine
07:15 < chris_99> hehe
07:15 < Qfwfq> The Ratatouille paper?
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07:15 < chris_99> http://www.cb.iee.unibe.ch/unibe/philnat/biology/zoologie/cb/content/e7117/e7118/e8764/e145926/Jarosz_CscCog2012.pdf
07:17 < Qfwfq> "The current experiment tested the effects of moderate alcohol intoxication on a common creative problem solving task, the Remote Associates Test (RAT). [..] Participants watched an animated feature film (Ratatouille) while they consumed the alcoholic beverages."
07:18 < chris_99> heh
07:20 < kanzure> .title http://www.lurklurk.org/linkers/linkers.html
07:20 < yoleaux> Beginner's Guide to Linkers
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07:36 < kanzure> hydroponic grass growing facility thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZTikdxj8AI&t=1m
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07:38 < kanzure> "It was developed about 45 years ago but I could never find a market. .... In a revolving setup you can now leave this van unattended in a field for seven days at a time and remotely dump a load of food once a day."
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07:54 < kanzure> "The common octopus, Octopus vulgaris, lays 100,000 to 500,000 small eggs that hatch into planktonic young. O. briareus, on the other hand, lays approximately 500 large eggs which hatch into benthic young (Sweeney 1992)."
07:54 < kanzure> 10,000 test subjects? hmm
07:54 < kanzure> oh wait, 500,000
07:55 < kanzure> "If you plan to collect an octopus and are not familiar with their special needs, see Johnston and Forsythe (1993a, 1993b) and Wood (1994) for general information on octopus care."
07:56 < kanzure> "Foods that do work are: mysid shrimp, amphipods, crustacean larvae, crustacean appendages, little kids (just joking), and small crabs. Hanlon (1985) reports that food should be from 1/3 to 2 times the mantle length."
07:56 < kanzure> huh. there you go.
07:57 < kanzure> "You should also know that octopus eggs can be artificially reared. Simply :-) remove some of the eggs from the mother (she has eight arms, you have two), transfer them to another tank, and suspend them in the water column. Use an airstone to provide a gentle current to keep the eggs well oxygenated and to prevent fouling. One reason that you might want to do this is so you can raise some of the eggs at a higher temperature. These eggs ...
07:57 < kanzure> ... will hatch sooner and therefore give you an opportunity to work out some of the glitches (like "I didn't know that they would go up the airline tubing!" or "I didn't realize they eat THAT MUCH!") before the main batch hatches. "
07:57 < kanzure> http://www.thecephalopodpage.org/rearing.php
07:58 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4zUqGlvB1o
07:58 < yoleaux> Baby Octopuses Eating - YouTube
08:04 < JayDugger> Baby octopuses ate YouTube?
08:06 < kanzure> someone said the other day that researchers thought nobody knew what small octopodes eat
08:07 < kanzure> since this is known, the available explanations, for why nobody is doing massive selection experiments (on octopus populations), are lacking
08:10 < kanzure> "Using data available from whole genome sequencing, the human genome mutation rate is similarly estimated to be ~1.1×10^−8 per site per generation.[7]" sooo...
08:11 < JayDugger> Fear of selecting super-cephalopods that consume our most treasured Internet properties?
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08:13 < kanzure> before that could happen they would have to demonstrate an ability to use computers i think
08:13 < kanzure> so that would be an okay place to start
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08:14 < kanzure> given 500,000 2-5 millimeter octopodes, how do you pick the most clever?
08:14 < kanzure> they double their mass every week or something, so you have to pick fast
08:15 < JayDugger> Simple t-mazes?
08:16 < JayDugger> (And why do I feel like a minor character in a Theodore Sturgeon story?)
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08:29 < bbrittain> http://news.kddi.com/kddi/corporate/english/newsrelease/2014/12/23/844.html
08:29 < bbrittain> .title
08:29 < yoleaux> KDDI to become the first domestic telecommunications carrier to introduce Firefox OS smartphone to the market | 2014 | KDDI CORPORATION
08:29 < bbrittain> I want one...
08:29 < bbrittain> but it's only released in japan :/
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08:48 < kanzure> what is the least awful, most comprehensive api for retrieving historical daily weather data for austin? i need at least 2008-2014 pls.
08:49 < kanzure> and also i need more than temperature, humidity and wind vectors
08:50 < kanzure> hrm http://api.wunderground.com/api/Your_Key/history_YYYYMMDD/q/TX/Austin.json
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09:44 < kragen> I think this makes octopodes the only r-selected intelligent taxon?
09:45 < kragen> they might not be intelligent when they're 3mm long though
09:45 < kragen> I mean
09:45 < kragen> we aren't
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10:10 < kanzure> hmm these are not enough variables
10:11 < kanzure> dew point was looking like a good predictor of my productivity
10:12 < kanzure> there might be a sharp increase in productivity when dew point drops below 20 in whatever these metric units are
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11:40 < kanzure> blood bank is a good bank name
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12:51 < kanzure> "According to RT, a South Korean nuclear plant operator’ computer system was hacked. The perpetrator has leaked blueprints and manuals, says if his demands for three reactors’ closure aren’t met, those living near the facilities should “stay away” from home."
12:51 < kanzure> cool gimme the blueprints
12:51 < kanzure> nsh_: youhas?
12:52 < kanzure> "A Twitter user called "president of anti-nuclear reactor group in Hawaii" has claimed responsibility for the leaks. He demands the shutdown of KHNP’s Gori-1, Gori-3 and Wolsong-3 nuclear reactors for three months starting Christmas."
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13:03 < archels> https://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/35819963
13:04 < kanzure> talk to ParahSailin about that first
13:05 < ParahSailin> haha
13:05 < kanzure> spill the beans
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14:27 < heath> ergh, gifts
14:27 < heath> everywhere, next year i'm having a friendmas
14:28 < heath> and doing away with gifts
14:30 < kanzure> fuck that, ask your friends for gifts
14:30 < kanzure> demand gifts
14:30 < kanzure> don't let them control your party man
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14:31 < chris_99> lol
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14:43 < kanzure> i wonder if domestication is a good way to select for something approximating intelligence
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15:01 < kanzure> ball python was domesticated in the 60s in africa
15:02 < kanzure> "Researchers at the Max Planck institute in Germany are attempting to find a genetic basis for the processes of taming and domestication. They have obtained two strains of grey rats which were bred by Dmitry Konstantinovich Belyaev at the Institute of Cytology and Genetics in Novosibirsk, Russia, research which was later continued by Irina Plyusnina. One strain had been selected for aggressiveness while the other had been selected for ...
15:02 < kanzure> ... tameness, mimicking the process by which neolithic farmers are thought to have first domesticated animals. A similar experiment studying silver foxes has been ongoing at the same institute since 1959.[48] Richard Wrangham of Harvard suggests that similar genes could be involved in human self-domestication.[48]"
15:02 < kanzure> [48] is http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html?pagewanted=all
15:03 < kanzure> "Frank Albert, a graduate student at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany, is studying two colonies of tame and hyperaggressive Siberian rats to determine the genetics behind their differences. A handful of genes could be responsible."
15:05 < kanzure> oh wait, i've seen this before. meh. "In fact, after only eight generations, foxes that would tolerate human presence became common in Belyaev’s stock. "
15:05 < kanzure> "She reported that after 40 years of the experiment, and the breeding of 45,000 foxes, a group of animals had emerged that were as tame and as eager to please as a dog."
15:06 < kanzure> well, 500k octopodes would certainly help speed that sort of project up, although you would still need at least two or three generations to get any interesting results
15:12 < kanzure> since octopus eggs are transparent you could select for brain size during development
15:20 < kanzure> http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6c/06/07/6c0607c6484457b3a638ec8644d2b09a.jpg
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15:30 < kanzure> you could definitely select for relative eye size
15:31 < kanzure> which might also select for neuron vision system stuff
15:35 < kanzure> http://m9.i.pbase.com/o6/10/4910/1/148372639.xt65obRk.dive2872065w4.jpg
15:35 < kanzure> http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/octopus-5b.jpg
15:35 < kanzure> http://reefbuilders.com/files/2011/02/octopus-vulgaris-paralarvae-3.jpg
15:35 < kanzure> https://www.tonmo.com/community/attachments/h-lunulata-eggs-5-6-14-crop-jpg.58661/
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16:58 < fenn> i tried to sprout barley for my cat to chew on, but couldn't find viable seeds
17:08 < fenn> bbrittain: you can just buy a geekphone revolution and sign up for prepaid data plan like straighttalk (for firefox OS)
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17:18 < fenn> so i am not understanding why firefox dumped google in favor of yahoo search (powered by microsoft bing) and now they are hurting for money apparently
17:19 < fenn> can someone please explain this, bkero perhaps
17:21 < fenn> something about Do Not Track?
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17:25 < bkero> not right now
17:25 < bkero> I'm busy, but you can ask and I'll try to answer later
17:28 < kanzure> i bet you could shine a light through an octopus egg to get a shadow of its brain size
17:31 < kanzure> why hasn't someone done this
17:31 < fenn> in order to select for larger brains?
17:31 < kanzure> no just basic imaging of unhatched octopus
17:31 < kanzure> their eggs are transparent
17:31 < kanzure> and so are the critter bodies
17:32 < fenn> sounds like something that would be done routinely
17:32 < kanzure> i don't see any evidence of anyone bothering :(
17:32 < fenn> systematically even
17:34 < kanzure> also, if you let baby octopus live in an aquarium, you could use cameras from multiple angles to track every octopus's entire life and do things like whether or not it has been near food recently (for diet tracking)
17:34 < kanzure> (and if two octopus are in the same volume of space, the other octopus is probably not food)
17:35 < kanzure> ah inking is problematic though
17:35 < kanzure> i wonder which spectrums can penetrate inking
17:35 < fenn> and you can shoot lasers and viruses into its brain like in the fish matrix
17:35 < kanzure> fish matrixwho?
17:35 < fenn> anselm's cruel experiments with zebrafish larvae
17:35 < kanzure> cruel?
17:36 < fenn> well, who knows
17:36 < kanzure> "Using laser line scan imaging technology to assess deepwater seafloor habitats in the Monterey Bay National Marine Sanctuary" (2003)
17:36 < fenn> the fish just keep swimming forward, it's hard to draw any conclusions about whether they are happy or sad
17:37 < kanzure> "Lipid and fatty acid composition of early stages of cephalopods: an approach to their lipid requirements"
17:37 < kanzure> yes we can just inject fat into their eggs
17:38 < kanzure> i shall call them lardopus
17:38 < kanzure> ( http://www.cmima.csic.es/files/webcmima/docs/biblio-pdf/doc_223.pdf )
17:39 < kanzure> "Additionally, we report the lipid class and fatty acid composition of two cultures of O. Õulgaris paralarvae reared with enriched Artemia juveniles, and with enriched Artemia juveniles plus a prepared pelleted diet. From their lipid composition and that of their natural food, it can be deduced that cephalopod paralarvae and juveniles must require a food rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids PUFA , phospholipids and cholesterol and with a ...
17:39 < kanzure> ... moderate content in neutral lipids."
17:39 < fenn> and tiny shrimp
17:40 < kanzure> "an area of interest due to their rapid growth (>5% body weight per day)"
17:42 < kanzure> "At present, the commercial culture of O. Õulgaris in Spanish waters is limited to ongrowing subadults captured from the wild, to adult sizes Iglesias et al., 1997; Rama-Villar et al., 1997 . Octopus with planktonic stages like . O. Õulgaris, have been successfully reared through their paralarval stages only at an experimental scale Itami et al., 1963; Villanueva, 1995 . The paralarval culture of octopus and early stages of most ...
17:42 < kanzure> ... cephalopod species, still being a bottleneck. The suitable food for rearing these early stages has been an unresolved problem."
17:42 < kanzure> "At present, most of the live prey used for successfully rearing early stages are collected from the sea, as zooplankton for paralarval squids Yang et al., 1986; Hanlon et al., 1979, 1989 or mysids and palaemonids for juvenile cuttlefishes and squids Forsythe et al., 1994; Lee, 1994 , but this method requires a substantial input of time and effort. On the other hand, laboratory hatched decapod zoeae have been used as food for paralarval ...
17:42 < kanzure> ... octopods and squids Itami et al., 1963; Villanueva, 1994, 1995 , but the use of this food item requires a risky cumbersome parallel culture of crustaceans that seems impractical beyond the experimental scale systems."
17:42 < kanzure> hmm.
17:42 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/YLVdRPVj-XM
17:42 < yoleaux> Zebrafish Brain - YouTube
17:43 < fenn> combine this sort of imaging technology with optogoenetic light-triggered neural receptors and you have the fish matrix
17:43 < kanzure> is this real time?
17:43 < fenn> the fish is held in a water stream between two blocks of clear gel
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17:44 < kanzure> that's an interesting choice
17:44 < kanzure> makes sense
17:44 < fenn> the time is shown in the lower left; looks to be about 2x (i think it looks better at 4x)
17:44 < fenn> also this is a 3d data set
17:45 < fenn> i thought you had seen it already
17:46 < kanzure> i think i've only seen his mouse videos
17:46 < fenn> this video wasn't from anselm's lab, but they were doing something similar
17:46 < fenn> .g nmeth.2434
17:46 < yoleaux> http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n5/full/nmeth.2434.html
17:46 < kanzure> .title
17:46 < yoleaux> Whole-brain functional imaging at cellular resolution using light-sheet microscopy : Nature Methods : Nature Publishing Group
17:46 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2434
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17:48 < kanzure> octopus is as close as you are going to get for "alien" for a while i think
17:50 < fenn> i think this is the right video... http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n5/fig_tab/nmeth.2434_SV4.html
17:51 < fenn> also this shows "slicing" the zebrafish in the Z axis with a light sheet http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n5/fig_tab/nmeth.2434_SV1.html
17:52 < kanzure> i bet you could do this sort of imaging before octopodes hatch
17:52 < fenn> definitely
17:54 < kanzure> you could also grow less brainy octopus as a side business to sell to those people who eat 'em
17:55 < fenn> perhaps it would be more humane if we massaged them and read lectures on existential philosophy
17:56 < kanzure> seems to be about $5/octopound
17:56 < kanzure> or up to $10/octopound
17:56 < fenn> afaik all octopi are wild caught, many illegally
17:56 < kanzure> "Right now more than 50,000 tons of octopus are caught each year" (2013)
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17:57 < kanzure> so $500 million/year?
17:57 < kanzure> that's our global octopus-as-food market? weird
17:58 < kanzure> haha 500 pound giant pacific octopus... geeze.
17:58 < fenn> it's not a popular food
17:58 < fenn> actually i have seen pickled baby octopi; those are probably farmed
17:59 < kanzure> i should go ask one of my vietnam friends
17:59 < kanzure> seems like a thing they would eat
17:59 < fenn> yeah
18:00 < kanzure> .wik cephalopod egg fossil
18:00 < yoleaux> "Cephalopod egg fossils are the fossilized remains of eggs laid by cephalopods. The fossil record of cephalopod eggs is scant since their soft, gelatinous eggs decompose quickly and have little chance to fossilize. Eggs laid by ammonoids are the best known and only a few putative examples of these have been discovered." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_egg_fossil
18:00 < fenn> "Whether octopus farming is profitable depends in large part on how much it costs to maintain a steady supply of crustaceans."
18:00 < kanzure> hmm.
18:01 < fenn> " a feeding regime of one day of crab followed by three days of fish can reduce the cost of producing one kg of octopus by a predicted value of €2.96"
18:01 < kanzure> housing and feeding 500k octopus would be a pretty big operation, especially considering their growth rate
18:02 < fenn> they have a high growth rate
18:02 < fenn> so the operation is smaller
18:03 < kanzure> oh right, you select the ones you don't like, and those get to be released or become food so probably need less "enrichment" and "testing"
18:03 < fenn> huh
18:03 < fenn> you breed the best of the ones you like
18:03 < kanzure> they lay 100k-500k eggs, you have to do something with the hatchlings
18:04 < fenn> oh; right now they can't do that
18:04 < kanzure> they=octopus?
18:04 < fenn> "Maintaining high survival rates for paralarvae appears to be the main factor limiting the development of a fully closed life cycle octopus hatchery system. ... the key factor affecting paralarval mortality is nutrition, making nutritional research the highest priority. There is "no reason not to believe that the aquacultural rearing of octopus will be of great economic potential" as soon as the
18:04 < fenn> rearing technology and nutritional issues have been addressed."
18:05 < kanzure> how many possible combinations of food could there be to test-- with so many baby octopus, it seems like you could test this in parallel somehow
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18:05 < fenn> any farmed octopus is raised from wild-caught baby (750g) octopi
18:06 < kanzure> right, so you need to get eggs from a wild-caught and then start from there
18:06 < fenn> ^^
18:06 < kanzure> hm?
18:07 < fenn> i agree, but it's obviously not an easy problem to solve
18:07 < kanzure> we might be talking about two different things. what i am thinking about is how to test the nutritional requirements. you get ten thousand hatchlings or whatever, keep them separated, and feed them.
18:07 < kanzure> i think the hard part seems to be the operations of the parallelism/testing
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18:08 < kanzure> keeping that many separate environments is difficult
18:08 < kanzure> i mean, it's difficult if you don't approach it as an engineering project
18:09 < kanzure> you could pump food through a pvc pipe system into a bunch of aquariums
18:09 < kanzure> although the octopus might get into your pipes...
18:10 < fenn> "Progresses were achieved by using different live preys, mainly crustacean zoea larvae of Palaemon serrifer, Liocarcinus depurator, Pagurus prideaux or Maja squinado together with Artemia as food complement. Yet, it seems quite clear that getting live zoea preys concomitantly with the hatch of octopus paralarvae is a hard task. It involves a lot of handwork, is risky and costly. Inert microdiets
18:10 < kanzure> we know how to raise those shrimp, right?
18:10 < fenn> that fit octopus hatchlings nutrient requirements should be developed in the future."
18:10 < fenn> yes they get sucked into pipes and stuff too, but that's a different problem
18:11 < kanzure> i wonder if anyone has tried training an octopus to eat something already dead
18:12 < kanzure> which would solve some of the timing problems
18:12 < fenn> in other words, "shrimp, crab, hermit crab, spider crab, and brine shrimp"
18:12 < kanzure> without trying to solve "how to get them to eat an inert diet"
18:12 < kanzure> er, "microdiet"
18:13 < fenn> micro pellets like "spherification" cocktails are kinda cool
18:14 < fenn> but raising brine shrimp seems pretty easy
18:14 < fenn> i mean you only need a 1% survival rate for 1000 octopi
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18:15 < fenn> how can they not get even close to 1%
18:15 < kanzure> you're doing selection wrong if you can't
18:18 < fenn> wikpedia disagrees with you on "lardopus"
18:19 < fenn> "Cephalopods, such as octopus and squids, show low lipid digestibility as a result of low lipid requirements. Consequently a large component of the fish feed will not be taken up.[14] Crustacean diets are favored possibly as a result of their high protein relative to lipid levels."
18:19 < kanzure> oh.
18:20 < fenn> maybe the nutritional requirements are vastly different between larvae and juvenile stages, and that's why everyone's failing miserably
18:21 < kanzure> also i don't know if larvae have beaks for ripping or chewing
18:22 < kanzure> or how their digestive system works- maybe they can eat chunks of meat
18:26 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjToyA-iBug
18:26 < yoleaux> Octopus Larvae - YouTube
18:26 < kanzure> (just one twirling around and pulsing)
18:28 < kanzure> hehe they have one trapped in a water droplet on a slide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRv0J4aEoC4
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18:35 < fenn> the twirling one is really cool, you can see the individual chromatophores expanding as it gets pissed off
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18:36 < kanzure> adult beak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy2C45ajX7Y
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18:38 < fenn> .title http://vimeo.com/49512972
18:38 < yoleaux> Aeon Flux - Leisure. 04 on Vimeo
18:39 < fenn> torturing microscopic critters - an obsession leading to tragedy
18:40 < kanzure> yes that is definitely how i walk around outside
18:43 < kanzure> well, you could always feed them other octopus
18:44 < fenn> sure they have eight arms, why not just hook it up in a star topology, a giant fractal of cannibalism. heck you could even loop its tentacle back into its mouth for infinite octo-gain
18:44 < eudoxia> youtube has already started recommending me octopus videos
18:45 < kanzure> hm i don't think they even have enough suckers to do manipulate food much at that stage
18:46 < kanzure> what about that "open sea circuit" idea from http://www.cmima.csic.es/files/webcmima/docs/biblio-pdf/doc_223.pdf
18:47 < kanzure> this just requires not flushing the octopus into the ocean (so some kind of filtration)
18:47 < fenn> sure you could also filter out zooplankton with a fine mesh net pulled behind a boat
18:48 < kanzure> do you mean capture
18:48 < fenn> yes
18:48 < kragen> eudoxia: that kind of thing happens to me too
18:49 < eudoxia> kragen: youtube's recommendation engine is awfully sensitive
18:49 < kanzure> "O. Vulgaris broodstock collected from local craft fishery was maintained using the open-circuit seawater system of the ICM. Females 1–2 kg were placed with males of similar size during 2–3 days to ensure mating. Fertilised females were isolated and maintained in 200-l individual cylindrical plastic tanks. An overabundance of food was supplied using frozen crabs Ž .Ž . Carcinus maenas and sardine Sardina pilchardus . All fertilised ...
18:49 < kanzure> ... females were maintained in the dark with the aim of accelerating their sexual maturation Wells, 1978; Zuniga et al., 1995 . Some of them were also kept at warm temperature by heating the water to 19–218C with the same purpose Villanueva, 1995. Embryonic development of the egg masses and hatching time were controlled according to the rearing needs by means of the temperature of the water, since this is the main factor that modulates ...
18:49 < kanzure> ... the duration of the embryonic period Boletzky, 1989 ."
18:50 < kanzure> "A 700-l semi-closed seawater system connected to the open-circuit of the ICM was used for the paralarval rearing experiments. Seawater was filtered through 0.2 mm and daily renovation rates were 10–40%. The semi-closed system was equipped with a biological filter, protein skimmer, UV lamps, ozonizer and temperature control. Two rearing experiments of O. Õulgaris from hatching to 30 days were carried out. Artemia biomass and pellets ...
18:50 < kanzure> ... were used as food."
18:50 < kragen> they're currently recommending me a video about a pipe bending machine in Spanish, a Fire Marshall Bill video from the early 90s, and a Jeri Ellsworth video as its top 3 recommendations
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18:50 < fenn> 0.2 mm is pretty damn small
18:51 < fenn> i guess whatever eats octopus paralarvae is also small
18:51 < kragen> further down we have Steven Wright and Roosh V
18:52 < kanzure> "The rearing experiment started with a total of 1250 freshly hatched O. Vulgaris paralarvae divided in two cylindric polyethylene plastic tanks. The characteristics of these tanks and general rearing conditions have been described elsewhere Villanueva, 1995 . Tank volume was 70 l and water flow 120 l h . Temperature ranged from 20 to 228C. Artemia biomass Diet HB was supplied ad libitum 2–3 times a day from the first day of culture to ...
18:52 < kanzure> ... the end at 30 days."
18:52 < eudoxia> .wik ad libitum
18:52 < yoleaux> "Ad libitum is Latin for "at one's pleasure" (at liberty); it is often shortened to "ad lib" (as an adjective or adverb) or "ad-lib" (as a verb or noun). The roughly synonymous phrase a bene placito ("at [one's] good pleasure") is less common but, in its Italian form a piacere, entered the musical lingua franca (see below)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_libitum
18:53 < kanzure> so they went through all this effort and found some paralarvae survived, so they killed those anyway to look at them -_-
18:53 < kanzure> they should have taken one to grow, because apparently it can tolerate that diet
18:54 < fenn> "octopus farming" sounds like some kind of metaphor for a perverse incentive situation in software development
18:56 < kanzure> "By packing a suitcase and moving away from the team, the Researcher or consultant gives the team space to do what they do best, without interference. It's like the OctopusFarmer who puts beef cattle to pasture for several months while pursuing leisure or other ventures, returning after several months to share in the profit."
18:56 < kanzure> "Lest there be any misunderstanding, these are very smart octopus, and we don't extend the metaphor to their slaughter (or, if we do, it's in the spirit of the RestaurantAtTheEndOfTheUniverse)."
18:57 < kanzure> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SuitcaseFarmer
18:57 < kanzure> something something fifth arm doesn't know what third arm is doing
18:59 < kanzure> what was the point of the non-illuminated container
18:59 < fenn> .wik rat farming
18:59 < yoleaux> "Rat Farm is the fourteenth full-length studio album by the Meat Puppets. It was released on April 16, 2013, through Megaforce Records." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Farm
19:00 < fenn> god dammit wikipedia you're supposed to do what i mean
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19:01 < fenn> anyway. someone got the bright idea to put a bounty on rats, because there was a rat problem. so people started farming rats and selling them to get the bounty.
19:02 < ebowden> heh
19:02 < kanzure> capturing octopus seems to be easy enough so far
19:02 < fenn> apparently this phrase only exists in the last universe i was in
19:03 < kanzure> "Rearing observations on the behaviour of pellet capture and ingestion were done at the age of 15 and 16 days. During six feedings, a minute after the addition of pellets, 100 individuals were counted, and the number of paralarvae with pellets within their arms recorded. The mean percentage of paralarvae handling pellets was 49% range: 39–64% . Stomach contents were visualized by transparency, since the stomach took the pellet colour ...
19:03 < kanzure> ... when ingestion was successful. A total of 62 paralarvae handling pellets was followed individually by the observer, with 18% of them ingesting the pellet. This process lasted from 65 to 920 s."
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19:06 < kanzure> "The high incidence of captured pellets by O. Vulgaris paralarvae but with subsequent low ingestion indicates that palatability could be a determinant factor on the ingestion rates."
19:08 < kanzure> .title http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0044848608000240
19:08 < yoleaux> Growth, feed efficiency and condition of common octopus (Octopus vulgaris) fed on two formulated moist diets
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19:09 < kanzure> "In the present study, the growth, feed efficiency and condition of Octopus vulgaris (0.58 to 1.02 kg; 17 to 21 °C) fed two formulated moist diets based on fish and prawn mixed with alginate (group A) or gelatin (group G) as binders, and a control diet based on a crab diet (group C) are compared. The animals showed a suitable degree of acceptance of both formulated diets, grew and produced faeces, with 100% survival in all groups. The ...
19:09 < kanzure> ... best results were obtained with group C, followed by group A. .... The results suggest that the differences in growth could have been due to lower feed intake of animals fed either formulated diet and indicates the importance of including taste enhancers. The excellent use of the lipids obtained from the crab emphasises the importance of both the quantity and type of lipid supplied. The stability of these diets in water, their ...
19:09 < kanzure> ... texture, nutritive composition and manufacture are discussed. "
19:10 < kanzure> .title http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2109.2011.03014.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
19:10 < yoleaux> Efficient utilization of dietary lipids in Octopus vulgaris (Cuvier 1797) fed fresh and agglutinated moist diets based on aquaculture by-products and low price trash species - Estefanell - 2011 - Aquaculture Research - Wiley Online Library
19:11 < kanzure> "discarded bogue"
19:11 < kanzure> .wik boops boops
19:11 < yoleaux> "Boops boops, called the bogue, is a species of seabream native to the eastern Atlantic. Its scientific name (pronounced /ˈboʊ.ɒps/) comes from Greek βόωψ (boōps, literally "cow-eye") and refers to its large ("bug") eyes, as does its common name in many languages." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boops_boops
19:12 < ebowden> http://www.researchgate.net/post/Can_rat_farming_be_a_solution_of_food_security
19:16 < kanzure> "A formulated diet for Octopus maya that provoked a growth rate and survival higher than that observed when animals were fed diet based only on freeze-dried crab is reported for first time. Early juveniles (0.37 g wet weight; ww) of O. maya were used. Diets were made by mixing freeze-dried ingredients (crab paste; Callinectes spp. meal; (Cr), squid meal; Dosidicus gigas (Sq) and silages (Si)) all enriched with a mix of vitamins and ...
19:16 < kanzure> ... minerals, and bound with gelatin, forming a paste. At the end of the experiment, Crab–Squid (CrSq) was the only diet that showed 100% survival, followed by Crab (Cr) (55%). The highest specific growth rate (SGR, % day− 1) was obtained in animals fed CrSq (3.04% day− 1) followed by animals fed Cr (1.96% day− 1) and Squid (Sq) (1.09% day− 1). Marginal (0.36% day− 1) and negative (− 0.73% day− 1) SGR values were observed ...
19:16 < kanzure> ... in animals fed Silage–Crab–Squid (SiCrSq) and Silage–Squid (SiSq)."
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19:20 < kanzure> shouldn't they be testing cooked meats?
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19:24 < kanzure> http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/octopus-chronicles/2013/09/24/first-octopus-farms-get-growing/
19:24 < kanzure> "On the Yucatan coast in Mexico, a small cooperative is finally rearing Octopus maya from eggs after a decade of research and unsuccessful attempts, according to news reports. Called Mayab Mollusks, it is still in its infancy, but the group is planning to gear up to larger commercial operations."
19:25 < kanzure> tsk tsk "Another group attempting to cultivate octopuses, Fremantle Octopus Company, is based in Perth, Australia. Instead of trying to bring octopus babies through their tenuous early stage, this company is starting out with underweight octopuses—mainly the common Sydney octopus (O. tetricus)—already caught by fishermen (they’re calling their process “ocean to plate”). Their next hope is to move to a full life-cycle model."
19:26 < kanzure> "One other potential obstacle to octopus farming, however, is that unlike many other animals that are currently reared together in large numbers, octopuses cannot be vaccinated against common infections. They have no acquired immunity"
19:28 < kanzure> .g mayab mollusks
19:29 < yoleaux> http://www.theyucatantimes.com/2013/07/first-successful-octupus-farm-in-the-world-marks-event-with-birth-of-maya-octupus-in-sisal/
19:31 < kanzure> i see no evidence of these people still existing
19:33 < kanzure> http://beaches-r-us.blogspot.com/2013/07/octopus-farm-sisal.html
19:33 < kanzure> haha stuck in patent limbo
19:33 < kanzure> hilarious
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20:11 < kanzure> speculation about why there are no freshwater cephalopods http://web.archive.org/web/20120829154945/http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?10350-Freshwater-squid&s=5e62cbd0b0233653f5ee08081146062c&p=107263&viewfull=1#post107263
20:13 < kanzure> "A related question someone asked me that may appeal to the readers of this thread is "how come the queen/drone/worker/hive arthropod model that's so successful for insects on land doesn't seem to occur in marine arthropods?" unless there are examples in marine arthropods that I'm unaware of..."
20:13 < kanzure> "And as long as we're asking such questions, perhaps considering why there are no terrestrial or freshwater echinoderms would be interesting as well... I'd think a starfish or sea urchin would be at least as good a candidate as a snail for crawling about on dry land and eating plants and lichens and such off of rocks."
20:15 < kanzure> whoops i mean https://www.tonmo.com/community/threads/freshwater-squid.7953/
20:15 < fenn> i think this counts as freshwater
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20:15 < fenn> .title http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/
20:15 < yoleaux> Save The Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus
20:16 < kanzure> "As for echinoderms I have a feeling that this is closely tied to their water-vascular system. One of the very basic parts of their lifestyle is this system that keeps a reservoir of water inside them for movement, and this is constantly taking in water from the surroundings at a high volume and leaking water out. On land this would be impossible to maintain (sea star out of water gradually lose the ability to move). This might be ...
20:16 < kanzure> ... feasible in freshwater, but with such a large volume of environmental water inside of you, your osmoregulation problems have gotten to be much much much harder. That is my thoughts on that part.."
20:17 < kanzure> "And I agree...I don't think hemocyanin is as inferior as the traditional view suggests. Octopuses are efficient and extracting O2 from their environment, period. Octopus vulgaris has been shown to be able to take 76% of the oxygen out of each "breath" of water, that is better than humans, and I have found that O. rubescens can regulate their oxygen uptake (keep their oxygen uptake rate the same) down to 7 mmHg (for reference, oxygen ...
20:17 < kanzure> ... saturation at this temp, 11 C, is about 156 mmHg). These numbers are actually superior to most vertebrates. Hemocyanin, however, is only half the equation: Biomechanics plays a large part as well. Octopus respiration is such that water flows over the gills through out the entire ventilatory stroke in one direction. Its not a tidal breath like humans perform, its actually unidirectional, which helps alot. This one direction that water ...
20:17 < kanzure> ... flows is countercurrent to the blood flow in the gill capillary bed, so extraction is additionally efficient. "
20:18 < kanzure> "As far as I know, even in terrestrial arthropods I think the high social strategy is restricted to hexapoda (the insects), which have extremely few, if any, representatives in marine environments. Terrestrial arachnids, crustaceans, and myriapods are just as asocial as their marine relatives, so maybe the better question isn't marine vs. terrestrial but really hexapods vs. the rest arthropods why this hasn't arisen. And since we are ...
20:18 < kanzure> ... asking question, why are insects, who have been insanely successful in terrestrial and freshwater environments not further invaded marine environments. If they arose on land, I think I could go for the niche exclusion argument on that one... but serious, I really don't know."
20:18 < fenn> counterflow blood oxygen exchange is probably more important than hemoglobin vs hemocyanin
20:20 < fenn> well there used to be sea scorpions
20:20 < kanzure> hm
20:20 < fenn> insects all undergo a cocoon metamorphosis; perhaps their cocoon materials dont work well underwater
20:21 < fenn> also i'm pretty sure there are insects in brackish waters/sands
20:22 < fenn> .wik water beetle
20:22 < yoleaux> "A water beetle is a generalized name for any beetle that is adapted to living in water at any point in its life cycle. Most water beetles can only live in fresh water, with a few marine species that live in the intertidal zone or littoral zone. Water beetles rise to the water surface and take air into their tracheal systems." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_beetle
20:22 < kanzure> meh they would just lay eggs on land
20:22 < kanzure> oh wait, cocoons
20:22 < kanzure> i dunno how oxygen works with cocoons
20:25 < fenn> it diffuses in and they have lungs as usual
20:28 < fenn> i kinda want to raise giant insects
20:28 < kanzure> high oxygen content tanks + a few generations of selection
20:28 < fenn> like rhinoceros beetles or luna moths
20:29 < fenn> you'd think there would be more domesticated insects
20:29 < kanzure> domestication of the common housefly: only when food is on the ground, and wait your damn turn
20:29 < fenn> there's like, silk worms, lady bugs, crickets ... ?
20:30 < fenn> definitely nothing like a fancy guppy
20:31 < fenn> come on kanzure dont you want to do real life pokemon
20:32 < kanzure> i wouldn't mind
20:32 < fenn> giant crickets could be an important food source
20:33 < fenn> and they are cannibals so you could just feed them regular cricket food
20:35 < fenn> moth larvae are important too because they generate their own fat
20:36  * kanzure inserts this into the list right after cocaine yeast
20:39 < fenn> yeast-that-makes-all-drugs just filter the liquid appropriately
20:40 < kanzure> er, i suggest triggering different modes of production based on cellular differentiation stolen from multicellulars
20:42 < fenn> "Microbes found in the guts of waxworms like to feast on polyethylene, and could help dispose of plastic"
20:42 < fenn> radical
20:42 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/
20:42 < kanzure> lots of bioplastic eaters there
20:43 < kanzure> "bioplastic degradation and synthesis, recycling of poly-3-hydroxybutyric acid P(3HB)" http://2013.igem.org/wiki/index.php?title=Team:Imperial_College/tour
20:43 < fenn> this moth normally eats beeswax
20:43 < fenn> so presumably it's pretty good at it
20:43 < fenn> PHB is a biodegradable plastic anyway
20:43 < kanzure> i wonder if there's any company doing (un)natural selection projects as their specialty
20:43 < fenn> it's derived from corn somehow
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20:44 < fenn> hm i thought i played a video game once called "Dr. Coli" which was a "Dr. Mario" knock-off
20:45 < kanzure> ginkgo is probably faster at making specific metabolic pathways, but meh
20:47 < fenn> is this a list of all igem projects or just the interesting ones
20:49 < fenn> http://2012.igem.org/Team:Minnesota/Project/Caffeine_Yeast
20:50 < kanzure> your question has caused me paralyzing panic, i have no clue
20:50 < fenn> heh nevermind
20:50 < fenn> i just thought they were all pretty cool, and surprised that there was such a high signal
20:51 < kanzure> there are many many totally boring software projects
20:51 < kanzure> which are definitely not included in this list
20:51 < kanzure> phew, that's much better
20:52 < kanzure> i should have kept better track of my rejects
20:52 < fenn> "microglia to break down Alzheimer's disease related plaques" what could possibly go wrong?
20:52 < fenn> BRAIN EATING CELLS ESCAPE FROM LAB
20:52 < kanzure> i should go through http://igem.org/Team_Wikis?year=2014 soon
20:55 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_hedgehog
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20:55 < fenn> no wild animal would subject itself to such abuse
20:57 < kanzure> biocurious team used a separate wiki https://wiki.realvegancheese.org/index.php/Real_Vegan_Cheese
20:58 < kanzure> "Unfortunately many of our files are not public since most of the relevant scientific articles use closed licenses that don't allow us to share them publicly." meh
20:58 < kanzure> "NOTE: When connecting with the seafile software, you need to specify https://files.counterculturelabs.org/ as the server."
20:58 < kanzure> lol http 501
20:58 < kanzure> juul: ^
20:59 < fenn> do you have an archive backup of igem.org?
21:00 < kanzure> no
21:00 < kanzure> i have a backup of openwetware.org which has some sort of intersection with igem.org content if you squint hard enough
21:00  * fenn squints
21:00 < kanzure> all of these people just love setting up new sites that are hard to backup
21:01 < kanzure> igem.org is a bunch of custom perl plus a wiki
21:01 < fenn> it all boils down to html in the end
21:02 < fenn> there's no flash or ridiculous javascript that loads more javascript that eventually constructs a DOM resembling a web page
21:03 < fenn> omg "wobbly hedgehog syndrome"
21:03 < kanzure> there,
21:03 < kanzure> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/dna/projects.mdwn?id=70d9f8ee9b13c80d7de814d31ba477091d830d3a
21:04 < fenn> does that actually help anyone?
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21:04 < kanzure> gives me an incentive to clean it up
21:05 < kanzure> gnawing at me
21:06 < cluckj> oh no little hedgehogs
21:07 < fenn> hedgehogs are a highly illegal controlled substance
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21:19 < kanzure> http://2014.igem.org/Team:Gifu/Projects/Circular%26RNA
21:19 < kanzure> "We want to create an unbelievablely long protein. In vivo, the process of protein synthesis is transcription and translation. Generally, mRNA is linear. Translation is started by ribosome binding on a start codon and then it is stopped by dissociation of ribosome from mRNA. The size of synthesized protein is constant. So we planned the construction of circular mRNA without stop codon. It enables infinite translation, so it enables mass ...
21:19 < kanzure> ... production of the protein."
21:21 < kanzure> these pages are worse than geocities http://2014.igem.org/Team:HIT-Harbin/Project
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21:34 < kanzure> yeast production of unsaturated fatty acids, docasapentaenoic acid (DPA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) http://2014.igem.org/Team:HUST-Innovators#
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21:35 < kanzure> the problem is that it takes forever https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/dna/projects.mdwn?id=ead6c991c451621db5189ea86a178cc5cf7b8469
21:38 < fenn> "yeast production of unsaturated fatty acids, docasapentaenoic acid (DPA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)" cool
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22:02 < kanzure> an attempt to ameliorate allergic symptoms in human immune systems http://2014.igem.org/Team:KAIT_Japan/Project
22:06 < kanzure> corynebacterium glutamicum expression of proteins on pili structures or protein whip, maybe similar to cell surface display http://2014.igem.org/Team:Korea_U_Seoul
22:09 < kanzure> " In wetlands or sea, specific marine bacteria and coral produce dimethyl sulfide (DMS), which becomes a Cloud Condensation Nuclei (CCN), we thought we could produce cloud by creating E. coli which synthesizes DMS. To realize this, we consist a biosynthetic pathway of DMS in E. coli by introducing genes from Fragilariopsis cylindrus and Ruegeria pomeroyi. We use DMS detecting tube and High Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC) to ...
22:09 < kanzure> ... confirm the function."
22:12 < kanzure> synthesis of chlorophyll A in ecoli http://2014.igem.org/Team:Macquarie_Australia
22:20 < kanzure> synthesis of pheromone biosynthesis activating neuropeptide to attract insects http://2014.igem.org/Team:NCTU_Formosa/project
22:39 < kanzure> software for scoring biobrick search results http://2014.igem.org/Team:SJTU-Software
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22:52 < kanzure> a gene therapy for type 1 diabetes mellitus ("Our approach converts somatic cells into regulated insulin-producing cells, thus eliminating the need for continuous insulin therapy") http://2014.igem.org/Team:Tsinghua#anchor1
22:52 < kanzure> cc cluckj 
23:11 < kanzure> "I installed the "Zhongwen Chinese Popup Dictionary" extension for Chrome. It kind of works -- as you hover over characters it shows the definition. But I don't have any good content! I can't find any good beginner level Chinese stories online!"
23:12 < kanzure> "Only a few people in the HN crowd would be interested, but I imagine that Chinese translations of the Bible are a perfect match for this. Everything's already marked down into chapters and verses for easy organization, and the text is in the public domain too for older translations. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Union_Version> ...
23:12 < kanzure> ... <https://librivox.org/author/1097?primary_key=1097&search_category=author&search_page=1&search_form=get_results>"
23:12 < kanzure> "... you might be interested in my Chinese Text Analyser: http://www.chinesetextanalyser.com/ It also remembers words you know and don't know and can give you an approximation of how well you'll know a given piece of text before you start reading it (once it has a fair idea of your vocabulary). Windows only but runs under wine."
23:13 < kanzure> neat description of a steel factory https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8791559 "Once or twice a decade you might stop making steel and empty it all out so you can replace the bricks and do maintenance." (there's more content there)
23:16 < kanzure> chromatophores are working even inside the eggs https://www.tonmo.com/community/attachments/h-lunulata-eggs-5-6-14-crop-jpg.58661/ (?)
23:16 < kanzure> a thousand tiny heads http://m9.i.pbase.com/o6/10/4910/1/148372639.xt65obRk.dive2872065w4.jpg
23:16 < kanzure> "am i a cop?" http://36.media.tumblr.com/b678532b05192e32d88dcfb1341b4d84/tumblr_nfd0ujMt9d1qhnegdo1_500.jpg
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