--- Log opened Mon Dec 29 00:00:06 2014 00:01 -!- FAMAS2 [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:01 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:03 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:03 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:07 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:08 < fenn> Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em, 00:08 < fenn> And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum. 00:08 < fenn> And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on; 00:08 < fenn> While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on. 00:14 -!- agentsmith2 [~lolzilla@cpe-24-165-87-208.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:14 -!- agentsmith2 [~lolzilla@cpe-24-165-87-208.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:16 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:17 -!- augur_ [~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:18 -!- FAMAS2 [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19 -!- augur [~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:19 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:32 < fenn> a nice 20MP camera http://sentryscope.com/imagelibrary.html 00:32 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35 < fenn> where's waldo 00:39 < nmz787> fenn https://raw.githubusercontent.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/master/implicitCAD/output/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device__3D.png 00:39 < nmz787> fenn https://raw.githubusercontent.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/master/implicitCAD/output/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device.png 00:40 < nmz787> err https://raw.githubusercontent.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/master/implicitCAD/output/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device.jpg 00:48 < fenn> some of the posts on the right side have fused together 00:48 < fenn> and other posts are missing 01:03 < nmz787> yeah, the SVG that I converted to that JPG used the same "$quality=400" but the STL came out worse 01:04 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:11 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:13 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:19 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-182-230.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:26 < fenn> The SentryScope camera contains a linescan image sensor and a precisely controlled scanning mirror. At each instant of time the sensor records only a narrow vertical line in the monitored area. The motion of the scanning mirror causes this vertical line to sweep across the area from left-to-right in about one second. 01:26 < fenn> Up to 10,240 vertical lines are recorded during the scan, forming the full image. 01:30 < nmz787> fenn: do you know anything about nurbs surfaces? 01:31 < fenn> i know they are quintic polynomials 01:31 < nmz787> this is something I thought would make a parabolic channel, but fails to do anything http://paste.pound-python.org/show/8u5tbHkBaLJbdXKfyOLU/ 01:32 < nmz787> while this code http://paste.pound-python.org/show/auESqxrEHgdMiHU7S6lH/ 01:33 < nmz787> produces http://imgur.com/MNTRGmL 01:34 < nmz787> another view http://imgur.com/pyzVJyz 01:37 < fenn> they have a 6x6 grid of control points vs your 2x4 grid, are you sure this dimensionality works with degree=2? 01:37 < nmz787> anyone here know about NURBS curves? I am trying to produce a parabolic curved channel (like half a cylinder). Using venburbs, this is something I thought would make a parabolic channel, but fails to do anything http://paste.pound-python.org/show/8u5tbHkBaLJbdXKfyOLU/ while this code http://paste.pound-python.org/show/auESqxrEHgdMiHU7S6lH/ produces http://imgur.com/MNTRGmL another view http://imgur.com/pyzVJyz 01:37 < nmz787> sorry verbnurbs* 01:39 -!- agentsmith2 [~lolzilla@cpe-24-165-87-208.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:39 < nmz787> ugh 01:39 < nmz787> whoops, wrong channel 01:40 < nmz787> fenn: no idea, I got some ideas from some crappy shockwave flash demo 01:42 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:49 < fenn> i seem to recall something from high school geometry about needing 3 points to define a parabola 01:50 < fenn> try a 3x3 grid instead 01:54 < fenn> hm maybe that was to define an arc 02:00 < nmz787> degree = 3; then len(knots_v) => 10 02:00 < nmz787> len knots_u = 9 02:01 < nmz787> oh, this is using some other function 02:01 < nmz787> not nurbsSurface 02:02 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@185.7.192.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:02 < nmz787> well, deg 3, len(knots) 10, 6 sets of 6 (x,y,z) points 02:02 < nmz787> then 6x6 weights of value 1 02:31 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:55 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:01 -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@nusnet-121-9.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:37 -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:42 -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-182-230.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:09 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-182-230.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:09 -!- drewbot 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##hplusroadmap 05:13 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:14 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:31 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:31 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32 -!- nsh [~lol@2001:41d0:8:c2da::1337] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:41 -!- nsh [~lol@2001:41d0:8:c2da::1337] has quit [Changing host] 05:41 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:46 -!- rk[ohio] [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:56 < kanzure> maaku: yes there are many here who are working on kinematic self-replicating machins (genehacker, fenn, kragen, perhaps myself) 05:58 < kanzure> verbnurbs doesn't have surface-surface intersections, i should have mentioned that to nmz787 06:06 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:40 -!- FAMAS2 [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:41 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:41 -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:43 -!- FAMAS2 is now known as FAMAS 06:59 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:01 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:03 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:06 -!- narwh4l [8dd611e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.214.17.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:07 -!- rk[ohio] [~rak@164.107.116.158] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:19 < JayDugger> Good morning. 07:19 < kanzure> hi 07:22 -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:22 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-48-18.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:27 < kanzure> haha this guy screwed up his homeostasis https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8809328 07:38 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:39 < JayDugger> Probably not his best move, no. 07:42 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-182-230.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-48-18.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:58 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r179-25-188-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:58 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-16-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r179-25-188-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 08:01 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:01 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-188-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:12 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:22 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@182.48.84.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:52 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:59 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:09 < andytoshi> kanzure: i'm in vancouver, what's up? 09:09 < jrayhawk_> Non-shivering thermogenesis has some magical effects on immuneological cortisol sensitivity. 09:09 < jrayhawk_> There's footage of Wim Hoff getting a lipopolysaccharide injection and shrugging it off. 09:11 < jrayhawk_> Might have some relation to the mammalian dive reflex. 09:12 < jrayhawk_> I try to take showers cold whenever I don't have any particular legitimate need of inflammation, but it's an easy habit to fall out of. 09:13 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:15 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:16 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:18 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:22 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 09:25 < kragen> jrayhawk_: unfortunately I think I am missing some context here 09:26 < kragen> does non-shivering thermogenesis increase or decrease immunological cortisol sensitivity? what's the relationship with lipopolysaccharides --- do they stimulate cortisol production, or inflammation (which cortisol would suppress, no?)? 09:26 < kragen> also, kanzure, DNI is "digital-network intelligence" 09:32 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-188-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:36 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:15 -!- vi [~WashIrvin@58.182.38.58] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:15 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-117-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:16 -!- JayDugger1 [~jwdugger@pool-173-57-55-138.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:16 -!- HEx2 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:27 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:27 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Qfwfq, JayDugger, HEx1 10:27 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:30 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:31 < maaku> kanzure: i mean non-bio replicators. any of your projects described online? 10:32 -!- dvorkbjel [~viskestel@li607-220.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:32 < kanzure> originally the purpose of http://gnusha.org/skdb was to design and build a self-replicating machine 10:33 < kanzure> by looking for cycles in the dependency graphs 10:33 < kanzure> andytoshi: you could hang out with sheena2 if you can find her (she's a bit north of you) 10:35 -!- dvorkbjel [~viskestel@li607-220.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:44 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:48 < andytoshi> kanzure: sheena2: sure, depending what "a bit north" means :) 10:48 < kanzure> "For people that are fluent in a second language, studies have shown distinct developmental differences in language processing regions of the brain. A new study provides new evidence that programmers are totally brain dead." 10:50 < kanzure> "At first we thought we would place programmers under an fMRI, but that didn't work when we discovered that where their brains were supposed to be instead was 95% water by volume." 10:57 < nmz787> kanzure: what do you mean about no surface-to-surface intersection? their demo shows a nurbs surface that intersects with a plane 10:57 < nmz787> kanzure: did you see the pound.python pastes? I have no idea how to make a parabola with NUBRS :P 11:01 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4-_vRJ7CQM&t=7m29s 11:01 < yoleaux> Endoscopic Third Ventriculostomy for Hydrocephalus - YouTube 11:01 < kanzure> well surface-surface seems to be on his todo list in todo.txt 11:01 < kanzure> you'll probably have to write your own basic geometry library to use verbnurbs 11:01 < kanzure> i have no idea what this video is 11:05 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.253] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:16 < nmz787> weird skin effect, not sure where this is happening in the code :/ http://imgur.com/sXVkRnL,si4Rp2r,sraO5Va,EHoZ5XB 11:20 < kanzure> btw he is responsive by email 11:25 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:44 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45 < nmz787> ok 11:45 < nmz787> g2g now 11:45 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-buaqtdvtmmcfiaah] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:50 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:56 -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:22 < kanzure> https://twitter.com/devops_jesus but doesn't seem to be as funny as devops_borat 12:23 < kanzure> perfect https://twitter.com/uxyoda 12:32 < kragen> (apparently lipopolysaccharides stimulate cortisol production, so I guess jrayhawk_ is saying that non-shivering thermogenesis suppresses lipopolysaccharide-induced cortisol production based on this Wim Hoff anecdote?) 13:13 < kanzure> nes anti-emulation https://endrift.com/mgba/2014/12/28/classic-nes/ 13:16 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:19 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:31 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:38 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:41 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:48 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:54 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-buaqtdvtmmcfiaah] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:54 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:24 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:29 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:30 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-117-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:44 < nmz787> kragen: re: CAD: turning the quality from 1500 to 2000 alleviated the skin, but now I see that the posts still aren't as cylindrical as they should be. 14:45 < nmz787> kragen: I wonder if I could maybe render these high-detail areas separately, then stitch the large flat spots by hand with just like 2 huge triangles for each side 14:45 < nmz787> kragen the STL grew from quality=1500 and 145MB to q=2000 and 152MB 14:45 < kragen> what is quality? 14:46 < nmz787> some number that I guess increases the number of refinement operations I think 14:46 < kanzure> yes stl is an incredibly inefficient storage format 14:46 < kanzure> you should not plan on using stl for storage or transfer, ever 14:46 < kragen> are you talking about implicitcad here? 14:46 < nmz787> for calculating floating point operations I think 14:46 < kragen> stl is awesome 14:46 -!- sheena2 [~home@24.70.52.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:46 < kanzure> https://bostongazette.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/the-lego-movie-awesome-e1392309318427.png?w=600 14:46 < kragen> but it's true that you need a lot of triangles to approximate things reasonably 14:47 < kragen> the great thing about stl is that if you have implemented it then you have implemented it 14:47 < nmz787> yeah implicitcad using the .escad format... though the old main guy replied on how to start getting going with pure haskell https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/implicitcad/cWTn01aXqsI 14:47 < kragen> so you can be reasonably sure that if you store an stl model it will still be roughly as accessible in 10 or 20 years as it is now. maybe more 14:48 < kanzure> "I no longer maintain ImplicitCAD. Julia Longtin (who I think is also on this list) does. I will leave further comments to her." haha 14:48 < nmz787> yeah and implicitcad has been her first foray into haskell 14:48 < nmz787> I am not sure how much she knows, haven't talked about it 14:49 < kragen> heh, that sounds kind of rough 14:49 * delinquentme now a member of saltstack-formulas 14:49 < kanzure> maybe the weird non-haskell stuff was added by this non-haskell person 14:49 < delinquentme> #erffishul 14:49 < delinquentme> lel haskell 14:49 < nmz787> delinquentme: want a 153MB STL file of a microfluidic? 14:49 < delinquentme> feedme 14:50 < kanzure> man why does nobody listen to me 14:50 < kanzure> do not transfer stl files 14:50 < delinquentme> lulz ... is that the thing you posted? 14:50 < nmz787> :D 14:50 < kanzure> that is morally evil of you 14:50 < delinquentme> why? 14:50 < kanzure> kragen: what the hell do i have to say to get people to listen 14:50 < nmz787> it took a while to render kanzure 14:50 < nmz787> internets is what I pay for every month! 14:50 < kanzure> you don't want to render -_- 14:50 < kragen> kanzure: it would help if you were right 14:50 < delinquentme> ^ 14:50 < delinquentme> lulz 14:50 < kanzure> transferring stl files is like transferring compiled binaries 14:50 < kragen> yes 14:50 < kanzure> it is just evil and corrupt of you to do 14:50 < delinquentme> fun? 14:50 < kragen> that is a very good analogy 14:51 < kanzure> your source code is like <10 kb 14:51 < nmz787> kanzure: windows is a binary on tos of end-user media 14:51 < nmz787> disks are a thing 14:51 < kragen> binaries compiled for brainfuck or some similarly stable machine 14:51 < kanzure> stop using windows 14:51 < kragen> maybe ms-dos 3.3 14:51 < nmz787> well i am on linux now 14:51 < nmz787> so your juju doesn't apply 14:51 < kragen> you are not quite guaranteed that if you send someone an stl file then it will render the same for them as for you 14:51 < kanzure> it's not like your little arduino powering your reprap is going to be okay with a 2 gigabyte stl file 14:52 < kragen> regardless of what version of the compiler and libraries they have installed or what os they are running 14:52 < nmz787> kanzure: i rendered an SVG too 14:52 < kanzure> heh 14:52 < delinquentme> listen its suspended in cryogenic mineral oil and OC'd to 10x 14:52 < kragen> svg ;) 14:52 < nmz787> and it can do g-cdoe 14:52 < kanzure> i'll let kragen rant about svg 14:52 < nmz787> g-code 14:52 < kanzure> since he has been manually doing svg things lately 14:52 < delinquentme> I want a side project selling artsy fanless CPU coolers 14:52 < nmz787> though I haven't tried that to see how large it would be 14:53 < kragen> nmz787: are you doing svg in 3d somehow 14:53 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:53 < kragen> because that would be cool 14:53 < delinquentme> ideally using some navier-stokes property to increase the cooling effects 14:53 < nmz787> kragen: https://github.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/blob/master/implicitCAD/output/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device.svg 14:53 < nmz787> kragen: no it's just the different layers of the device 14:53 * delinquentme is kanzure and wondering why nobdy listnz 14:53 < nmz787> kragen: it can be broken up by extrusion operations essentially 14:53 < kragen> oh i see 14:54 < kanzure> delinquentme: instead of asking him for the 150 MB file just get the source code by using `git clone https://github.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad` 14:54 * kragen gives delinquentme a hug 14:54 < kanzure> btw does github actually render your stl file 14:54 < kanzure> or is that in-browser rendering 14:54 < kragen> you know stl would be a great deal more compact if someone compressed the flonums with some kind of linear prediction 14:54 < kragen> they use in-browser rendering 14:54 < kanzure> hopefully you are not committing that file 14:54 < nmz787> these are the output formats it know's about https://github.com/colah/ImplicitCAD/blob/318d96a8244279c4c2023dd6d4b16aebc96e45cf/Graphics/Implicit.hs#L56 14:55 < kanzure> kragen: how am i wrong about st 14:55 < kanzure> *stl 14:55 < nmz787> kanzure: nope, not the big one 14:55 < nmz787> i committed the 1 or 2 MB sine wave thing 14:55 < kanzure> aaaaaaa 14:56 < kragen> kanzure: distibuting binaries is a very good idea, even if perhaps less important than distributing source code 14:56 < kragen> and often much more convenient 14:56 < nmz787> delinquentme: yeah if you wanted to setup implicitcad you could also render that microfluidic with this file https://github.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/blob/master/implicitCAD/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device.escad 14:57 < delinquentme> nmz787, you lost me on that file title 14:57 < kanzure> the binary analogy only works when talking about source code, since you have already established that it is not actually "binary compatible" on different execution platforms 14:57 * delinquentme le hugs kragen back 14:57 < nmz787> delinquentme: at the moment to get a decent STL you need the quality to be at 2000 at least 14:57 < nmz787> delinquentme: then use meshlab to open the STL 14:57 < delinquentme> no I mean ... tobacco mesophyll protoplast fusion 14:57 < delinquentme> like I've found some good drugs 14:57 < delinquentme> but not that good 14:58 < nmz787> it's not a drug 14:58 < nmz787> see diybio recent talks 14:58 < nmz787> it's something to fuse protoplasts in a microfluidic then filter the unfused (and thus smaller by about half the volume) 14:58 < kragen> it is very binary compatible, although not perfectly 14:59 < nmz787> using column pressure differential for flow between central input and radial outputs 14:59 < kragen> there are stl files that e.g. slic3r and openscad choke on 14:59 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:59 < nmz787> so basically you put a drop in the center and keep the center topped off 14:59 < delinquentme> actually im trying to get this stupid influxdb example for configuring grafana working 14:59 < delinquentme> kanzoo you've grafana'd b4 ? 14:59 < kanzure> delinquentme: ask and ye shall receive 15:00 < kanzure> i've been using influxdb a little here and there 15:00 < kanzure> and grafana 15:00 < nmz787> WHAT, i just learned ubuntu (or maybe just xfce) has alt+middle mouse scroll to zoom like on a mac 15:00 < kragen> what are you using influxdb for 15:00 < nmz787> cool! 15:00 < kanzure> this is on my list http://www.philipotoole.com/influxdb-and-grafana-howto/ 15:01 < delinquentme> yeah I saw that one too 15:01 < kanzure> kragen: analysis from data firehose from trades 15:02 < delinquentme> I think I just need to sketch up a network diagram -- as its using influxdb, grafana, graphite, and some other DB 15:02 < kanzure> my statement is not entirely true; it's a partial answer 15:02 < delinquentme> and i THINK thats the extent of everything which needs to be installed 15:02 < kragen> oh, are you getting it to perform reasonably now 15:02 < nmz787> lata! g2g get my phone screen replaced 15:03 < delinquentme> exceptional: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG3Qp_ceMHk 15:03 < kanzure> has been nanosecond resolution for quite a while now 15:03 < kragen> i was very disappoined with influxdb when i tried it earlier this year 15:03 < kanzure> this is mostly for extra regulatory reasons 15:03 < kragen> i had 3.2 million data points and inserting them took 4 hours 15:03 < kanzure> delinquentme: if you are lazy maybe just use https://metrics.librato.com/ 15:03 < kragen> historical 30-second bars of gold futures, fwiw. i was just inserting the closing prices 15:04 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:04 < kanzure> where was the data from? 15:04 < kanzure> cme? 15:04 < kragen> ultimately yes 15:05 < kragen> not relevant though 15:05 < kanzure> shrug just curious 15:05 < kanzure> a fountain of historical data would be a nice thing to find 15:05 < kanzure> but is somewhat like search for fountain of youth 15:05 < kragen> yeah, historical data is hard to come by 15:05 < kragen> iqfeed has pretty decent and cheap data 15:06 < kanzure> hm 15:06 < kragen> they used to also have a satellite link full feed service for real-time data 15:06 < delinquentme> nanosecond resolution from what kanzure ? 15:06 < kragen> ended a few years back because internet is good enough 15:06 < kanzure> delinquentme: mad science stuff 15:06 < kragen> for the timestamps you store in influxdb, delinquentme 15:06 < delinquentme> jeebuz 15:06 < kanzure> no 15:07 < delinquentme> kragen, -1 15:07 < kanzure> other thing 15:07 < kragen> oh, heh 15:07 < kragen> hat makes more sense 15:07 < kanzure> i interpreted "oh, are you getting it to perform reasonably now" differently 15:08 < kragen> at the time i was only able to insert about 200 points per second and queries would take minutes 15:08 < kanzure> ouch 15:08 < kragen> so i am wondering if influxdb is delivering reasonable performance for that kind of data now 15:08 < kragen> yeah, i was sad that i wasted so much time trying to find a usable tsdb 15:12 < kanzure> did you have indices? 15:14 < kragen> i did not explicitly create any indices; i suspect that it did not have any at the time 15:14 -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15 < kragen> i mean influxdb, the software, not my instance of it 15:15 -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16 < kragen> query times increased linearly with the amount of data in the database 15:16 < kragen> this was in march 15:16 < kanzure> this seems like a property that is not ideal for a database to have 15:18 < kragen> what are you experiencing 15:19 < kanzure> haven't investigated, to be honest. set things up, on to the next windmills to tilt at. 15:19 < kanzure> someone else will prolly look soon 15:20 < kragen> you would be noticing if you were experiencing such poor performance as i did, though, wouldn't you 15:20 < kanzure> nope, because queries are happening somewhere else entirely 15:21 < kanzure> not using it as an "active" component 15:21 < kanzure> if that makes sense 15:22 < kragen> you are just dumping data into it and hoping that you can get it back later 15:24 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@109.179.63.79.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:26 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:30 < delinquentme> influx db running on a clean instance of google cloud. port 8083 is open to the outside and I can load the IP and see the InfluxDB Administration interface 15:30 < delinquentme> however I cannot login with root/root 15:30 < delinquentme> nor are login attempts reflected in the /opt/influxdb/shared/log.txt 15:31 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:31 < kanzure> admin / password 15:32 < delinquentme> nada 15:32 < delinquentme> http://107.178.215.76:8083/ 15:34 < kanzure> connection refused 15:34 < delinquentme> wat. 15:35 < delinquentme> and you've got the port there as well? yeah IDK then ... its definitely open to the interwebs 15:35 < kanzure> are you passing a database name when logging in? 15:35 < delinquentme> nope 15:36 < kanzure> "You can run InfluxDB with the environment variabe DEFAULT_ROOT_PWD set to whatever root password you'd like, note that this is an undocumented feature. This only works the first time you run InfluxDB or if you run influxdb --reset-root." 15:36 < kanzure> hahah https://github.com/influxdb/influxdb/issues/1012 15:36 < kanzure> awesome 15:39 < kanzure> nmz787: in the future, cad wil be easier 15:43 < archels> can I quote you on that? 15:44 < kanzure> yes 15:46 < delinquentme> I just spelled rules " Rools " 15:46 < delinquentme> idk. 15:56 < delinquentme> ok so I change the default bounding IP to 127.0.0.1 and it fails to resolve at the public facing URL ... but I want it to 15:56 < delinquentme> Job for iptables right? 15:58 < kanzure> er, sounds like you want it to bind to 107.178.215.76 to me 15:58 < kanzure> unless you want to only use that when logging in to the machine 15:58 < kanzure> ssh relay stuff 16:02 < delinquentme> but im confused as I'd expect 127.0.0.1 to bind to whatever the external IP is 16:03 < kanzure> 127.0.0.1 is localhost 16:03 < kanzure> you are not going to convince the internet to route 127.0.0.1 to your box 16:03 < kanzure> i mean, you can try..... and i encourage you to... 16:05 < delinquentme> but all of these operations are local to the machine ... once that request hits the machines external IP ... that is then localhost / 127.0.0.1 no? 16:05 -!- Evoril [~Evoril@86-45-222-8-dynamic.agg2.crw.prp-wtd.eircom.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:05 < kanzure> which request are you talking about? 16:06 < delinquentme> the initial question pertained to binding influx to an ip other than 0.0.0.0 16:06 -!- Evoril [~Evoril@86-45-222-8-dynamic.agg2.crw.prp-wtd.eircom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06 < kanzure> so, are you using salt? 16:09 < delinquentme> yarp 16:09 < delinquentme> and I know there are formulas for it 16:10 < kanzure> what's the behavior you want here? 16:10 < kanzure> if you only bind to 127.0.0.1 then you'll have to ssh into the box before making http requests to localhost:8083 16:11 < delinquentme> so either I should bind the internally-running influx db to 0.0.0.0, or the servers externally facing IP 16:12 < delinquentme> 0.0.0.0 seems like its asecurity issue 16:14 < kanzure> depends on how your infrastructure is setup 16:15 < kanzure> if you have something else always handling traffic before it hits this server then you can probably safely set to 0.0.0.0 16:22 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:22 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 16:25 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:25 < delinquentme> kanzure, got it +1 16:33 < delinquentme> makes no sense : 16:33 < delinquentme> 2014/12/30 00:32:52 [crit] 3197#0: *12 stat() "/root/grafana-1.9.0/index.html" failed (13: Permission denied), client: 74.61.157.78, server: localhost, request: "GET /favicon.ico HTTP/1.1", host: "107.178.215.76" 16:34 < delinquentme> yet I've $ chmod -R /root/grafana-1.9.0/ + restarted nginx 16:34 < delinquentme> still that comes up when I try loading 16:34 < kanzure> /root might have a sticky bit set? 16:36 < delinquentme> yeah just chmod 0755 /root/ 16:36 < delinquentme> http://107.178.215.76/ 16:36 < delinquentme> so it loads .. but zero info 16:36 < delinquentme> TIl sticky bit 16:36 < delinquentme> and now I want a pecan bun 16:37 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:38 < delinquentme> GOLD! 16:39 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:39 < kanzure> stickybit should be okay 16:39 < kanzure> instead don't use /root 16:40 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:41 < delinquentme> yeah /root isn't best ... but this is first iter 16:41 < delinquentme> OK RELOACING 16:41 < delinquentme> WOOOOOOOO 16:46 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:46 < kanzure> subtext: he got kicked out of the coffee shop, i bet 16:57 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:57 -!- JayDugger1 [~jwdugger@pool-173-57-55-138.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:02 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@109.179.63.79.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:21 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:28 < jrayhawk_> do any of those sysadminny words merit my attention 17:28 < jrayhawk_> there sure are a lot of them 17:38 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:39 -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:43 -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:45 -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:46 -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:46 < delinquentme> so. if influx db is configured correctly .. and the db itself is running on port 8086 .. I shouldn't have any issues pinging it from within the machine ... right? 17:47 < delinquentme> at current 8086 is returning 404 .. that shouldn't be happening 18:05 < fenn> jrayhawk_: "For increase revenue we are introduce paywall between dev team and ops team." 18:07 < jrayhawk_> that's basically what amazon did 18:07 < jrayhawk_> seems to have worked out pretty well for them, actually 18:07 < fenn> you mean by making AWS? 18:07 < fenn> or their "everything is a platform" API bonanza 18:08 < jrayhawk_> Yeah. All of that has internal accounting, too. 18:12 < jrayhawk_> I haven't studied it in great detail, but presumably it's a good framework for incentivizing good architecture (modularity, reusability, public SaaS availability, being able to quantify value) 18:12 < fenn> the wim hoff thing is interesting 18:12 < fenn> .title http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.abstract 18:12 < yoleaux> Voluntary activation of the sympathetic nervous system and attenuation of the innate immune response in humans 18:12 < fenn> it actually makes sense too 18:13 < fenn> i also have no idea how to do it, and hate the cold 18:13 < fenn> like flexing a muscle that doesn't exist 18:14 < jrayhawk_> hormetic cold stresses will build BAT 18:14 < kragen> i do this 18:14 < fenn> what's BAT 18:14 < jrayhawk_> brown adipose tissue 18:14 < kragen> i go all winter in flip-flops and shorts. everyone looks at me like i'm crazy 18:14 < kragen> not to the extent of wim hof 18:14 < kragen> i mean, nobody does 18:15 < fenn> i go all winter in multiple layers of clothing and a russian tanker helmet 18:15 < jrayhawk_> yeah, he's an interesting but wacky outlier 18:15 < kragen> i don't think he's that wacky 18:15 < kragen> from the little i know, anyway 18:15 < kragen> just more dedicated 18:16 < kragen> basically when i'm cold i let myself be uncomfortable, maybe do some breathing exercises 18:16 < kragen> if it gets bad, like i'm shivering involuntarily, i put on more clothes 18:16 < delinquentme> kragen, meditation 18:16 < fenn> doesn't argentina get mild winters because of the ocean currents 18:16 < jrayhawk_> .title http://www.jci.org/articles/view/68993 18:16 < yoleaux> JCI - Cold acclimation recruits human brown fat and increases nonshivering thermogenesis 18:16 < delinquentme> I sat in a guided meditation once and had to strip layers off bc got too warm 18:16 < delinquentme> ooooo 18:16 < jrayhawk_> .title http://www.jci.org/articles/view/67803 18:16 < yoleaux> JCI - Recruited brown adipose tissue as an antiobesity agent in humans 18:17 < jrayhawk_> which obviously makes sense; decrease in cytokines increases hypothalamic leptin sensitivity 18:18 < jrayhawk_> .title http://www.jci.org/articles/view/68993 18:18 < yoleaux> JCI - Cold acclimation recruits human brown fat and increases nonshivering thermogenesis 18:18 < jrayhawk_> .title http://www.jci.org/articles/view/67803 18:18 < yoleaux> JCI - Recruited brown adipose tissue as an antiobesity agent in humans 18:18 < jrayhawk_> argh 18:18 < jrayhawk_> wrong paste buffers 18:18 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: nah none of those words merit your attention 18:18 < kragen> fenn: yeah, it isn't that cold here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires#Climate 18:18 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: although we were talking about null hypotheses stuff yesterday 18:18 < kanzure> there was some ambiguity that someone wanted resolved and it was about a thing 18:19 < fenn> 45F is not cold 18:19 < kanzure> no 18:19 < kanzure> maybe with high winds 18:20 < kragen> no, despite the name of the city, we don't have high winds 18:20 < jrayhawk_> mammalian dive reflex is water on the face at <60F, which is probably related 18:20 < kragen> it's full of skyscrapers 18:20 < kanzure> you mean skytouchers? 18:20 < fenn> upgoers? 18:20 < kanzure> skyfondlers 18:21 < kragen> up-be-ers 18:22 < kanzure> 16:27 < fenn> i mean i think i get what he's trying to say, but it doesn't match my understanding of "null hypothesis" 18:22 < kanzure> 16:26 < fenn> < jrayhawk_> The formation of a good working null hypothesis for how sugar is supposed to work necessarily involves phenolics. 18:22 < kanzure> 16:27 < fenn> this sentence doesn't make sense to me 18:22 < kanzure> whoops, temporal convolution 18:22 < fenn> hey i am busy reading about brown adipose tissue now 18:23 < fenn> not silly philosophy stuff 18:23 < kanzure> not silly sugar shit 18:23 < fenn> shilly sugar sit 18:24 < jrayhawk_> "i mean i think i get what he's trying to say" if you have a better way to say it, i will gladly steal it from you 18:24 < kanzure> "they were wrong" 18:25 < fenn> the only human evolutionary exposure to fructose was coincident with polyphenols or flavonoids 18:26 < fenn> because berries 18:26 < jrayhawk_> after mastering fire, honey was possibly more important, but the same basic principle applies 18:27 < fenn> i dunno about honey, either nutritionally or its availability 18:27 < fenn> bears seem more interested in the baby bees than the honey 18:28 < fenn> also, natural honey has all sorts of black shit in it 18:28 < jrayhawk_> http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/02/polyphenols-hormesis-and-disease-part-i.html and http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/02/polyphenols-hormesis-and-disease-part.html are good summaries of the confusing state of polyphenol research 18:30 < fenn> oh "polyphenol binding proteins in saliva" must be why persimmons make your mouth pucker 18:31 < fenn> .ety pucker 18:31 < yoleaux> pucker (v.): "1590s, "prob. earlier in colloquial use" [OED], possibly a frequentative form of pock, dialectal variant of poke "bag, sack" (see poke (n.1)), which would give it the same notion as in purse (v.)." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=pucker 18:32 -!- Evoril [~Evoril@86-45-222-8-dynamic.agg2.crw.prp-wtd.eircom.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:33 < delinquentme> If i've got all of my applications running locally on a machine ... I don't need to worry about enabling CORS right?? 18:33 < jrayhawk_> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12617614 bioavailability of phenolics in honey 18:33 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1021%2Fjf025928k 18:33 < jrayhawk_> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12935325 improves oxidative stress, blood sugar management 18:33 < jrayhawk_> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12935324 decreases inflammation 18:33 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1089%2F109662003322233549 18:33 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1089%2F109662003322233530 18:33 < jrayhawk_> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18454257 general metabolic improvements over sucrose 18:33 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1100%2Ftsw.2008.64 18:33 < jrayhawk_> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15117561 general metabolic improvements over sucrose 18:33 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1089%2F109662004322984789 18:33 < fenn> jrayhawk how do you organize your bookmarks 18:34 < jrayhawk_> i don't; some of these i just remember how to search for; this particular topic i am ripping links out of an email i composed a few months ago 18:35 < kanzure> https://github.com/davidlazar/jotmuch 18:35 < jrayhawk_> i feel like i should probably be wikifying these things 18:35 < kanzure> feel free to abuse diyhpluswiki 18:35 < kanzure> especially for comments like "Someone should fix this metabolism because it is stupid" 18:36 < fenn> yeah nutritional modifications is really low hanging fruit 18:37 * fenn savagely beheads the pun elf 18:39 < jrayhawk_> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8672404 18:40 < fenn> .title 18:40 < yoleaux> Honey revisited: a reappraisal of honey in pre-industrial diets. - PubMed - NCBI 18:40 < fenn> apparently paperbot only answers if you don't prefix with paperbot: now? 18:40 < jrayhawk_> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8672404 18:40 < jrayhawk_> i have to play hard to get 18:41 < fenn> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8672404 test 18:41 < jrayhawk_> maybe i crashed it 18:41 < fenn> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8672404 test test 18:41 * fenn shrugs 18:42 < jrayhawk_> unpaywalled anyway 18:42 < fenn> who has time to read papers anyway 18:43 < jrayhawk_> "The Mbuty pygmies of the Congo obtain as much as 80% of their dietary energy from honey during the honey season (Crane, 1983), but this lasts for only 2 months out of the year (Turnbull, 1963)." 18:43 < jrayhawk_> s/Mbuty/Mbuti/ 18:44 < jrayhawk_> jesus christ that sounds disgusting 18:44 < fenn> yeah but watching them go after the nests makes it clear that humans weren't made for this activity 18:44 < jrayhawk_> what the hell are you talking about 18:44 < fenn> they get stung hundreds of times and fall out of trees 18:45 < jrayhawk_> bees are knocked out by smoke 18:46 < delinquentme> I dont party enough when things work as expected. 18:46 < delinquentme> im gonna change that right now. 18:46 < delinquentme> ROFL 18:46 < delinquentme> one comma 18:47 < fenn> delinquentme: just be sure to take your B12 pills after drowning in nitrous 18:47 < delinquentme> http://107.178.215.76/#/dashboard/file/default.json 18:47 * delinquentme droolies 18:48 < fenn> it loads very slowly 18:48 < delinquentme> it does 18:48 < fenn> i dig the color scheme 18:49 < delinquentme> was all me 18:49 < delinquentme> not really though 18:49 < delinquentme> itll look better once I get data points loaded 18:49 < delinquentme> BUT right now ... its time to make dinnR 18:50 < delinquentme> taking it down bc I dont trust you guy s:D 18:50 < fenn> pff 18:50 < fenn> what's a little hacking between friends 18:52 < delinquentme> rulf 18:54 -!- Evoril [~Evoril@86-45-222-8-dynamic.agg2.crw.prp-wtd.eircom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:57 < kanzure> http://i.imgur.com/j61IJdX.jpg 18:59 < kanzure> hacking just shows how much i care 19:13 < delinquentme> any of us in here have a connect to andreesen? 19:13 < delinquentme> or someone with a shitload of cash ? 19:14 < kanzure> show me the pitch 19:14 < delinquentme> cant :D 19:14 < delinquentme> pre patent 19:14 < kanzure> then there's no way you're going to get an intro 19:14 < kanzure> otherwise i burn my connections 19:14 < delinquentme> yeah the patent is staying quiet 19:15 < kanzure> so let me get this straight: you want me to intro you to unfathomably wealthy people, without telling me anything 19:15 < delinquentme> im not sure what I can say about it 19:15 < delinquentme> kanzure, have I asked you for an intro before? 19:15 < kanzure> in fact yes 19:15 < delinquentme> to investors? 19:15 < kanzure> nope, but that doesn't matter 19:15 < delinquentme> lel 19:15 < kanzure> this is how intros work: you talk to the person giving an intro, and the person routes you to wealthy people 19:15 < delinquentme> well ! 19:15 < delinquentme> let that be an indication :D 19:16 < delinquentme> true 19:16 < delinquentme> i did this with jolly as well 19:16 < delinquentme> and he got too nosy 19:16 < delinquentme> nosey* 19:16 < delinquentme> so I said fuck it 19:16 < kanzure> if you are worried about people leaking details then you need a better plan 19:16 < delinquentme> and kanzure we both know how ideas in hard sci aren't the same as they are in #startupLandia 19:16 < kanzure> no different 19:17 < delinquentme> I'm worried about one of the best connected nerds on the hard tech internet leaking info 19:17 < delinquentme> fucking ues 19:17 < delinquentme> ues = yes 19:17 < delinquentme> Yes, I am worried :D 19:17 < fenn> nobody cares about your idea 19:17 < fenn> sheesh 19:17 < kanzure> all intros leak 19:17 < kanzure> that's the whole point of an intro 19:17 < kanzure> you want unfathomably wealthy people excited about your idea 19:17 < delinquentme> id have to ask people first 19:17 < delinquentme> 3 engineers and a biochemist 19:18 < fenn> kanzure is that han solo wearing a suit? 19:18 < delinquentme> whos your contact kanz? 19:18 < delinquentme> we're not interested in musk 19:18 < delinquentme> as that connections already there 19:18 < kanzure> er, i know many people... and which ones i route to depends on what the fuck it is 19:18 < fenn> did chewbacca finally get that hair removal procedure 19:18 < kanzure> fenn: disney ceo 19:18 < fenn> it looks like a painting 19:19 < kanzure> it is definitely photoshopped 19:19 < fenn> maybe just dumb HDR 19:19 < kanzure> delinquentme: also, *real* leaks are super bad and damage my reputation 19:19 < delinquentme> true 19:19 < kanzure> everyone and their dog sends around slide decks 19:20 < delinquentme> kanzure, i need something to whet their appetites 19:20 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/deck1.pdf 19:20 -!- balrog [~balrog@discferret/developer/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:21 < delinquentme> kanzure, thats not the investors :D 19:21 < fenn> .title youtu.be/8-OR0QppWKA 19:21 < yoleaux> Towards General Purpose Reconfigurable Computing on Novena - FPGAs for Everybody with Novena [31c3] - YouTube 19:22 < fenn> https://events.ccc.de/congress/2014/Fahrplan/events/6412.html copied here because ccc is slow http://fennetic.net/irc/31c3_Space-time_Adventures_on_Novena-7.pdf 19:23 < jrayhawk_> the problem with wikifying this stuff is that i would want to insert whole papers, and i can't do that safely publicly 19:23 < kanzure> you could link to papers? 19:23 < kanzure> also, quoting is pretty okay 19:23 -!- balrog [~balrog@discferret/developer/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:24 < kragen> how do squirrels find nuts they bury 19:24 < kragen> do they just reember six months later 19:24 < kanzure> how likely would it be for "random insertion of vitamin production metabolism" to work? 19:24 < jrayhawk_> i guess i should make a private repo and then git-filter-branch it to publish it 19:24 < kanzure> kragen: at the moment neuroscience has very few ideas about you remember your own name, much less squirrels burying nuts 19:25 < kragen> some days i don't 19:25 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: or you could just have a private branch 19:25 < fenn> delinquentme: you can apply for a provisional patent and it costs less, but keeps you safe from prior art claims (why am i advising people on patents?) 19:26 < kanzure> fenn: now send him an invoice 19:26 < fenn> that'll be 1% equity please 19:26 < kragen> in theory publishing it is sufficient to keep you safe from prior art claims in the usa 19:26 < kanzure> "3 minutes of patent advice, $250.00 + $5000 retainer + 0.1% equity" 19:26 < jrayhawk_> i would kinda like to attract other meritous contributors, which would take a while with word-of-mouth 19:26 < delinquentme> were waiting for the patent to finish 19:26 < jrayhawk_> i could get fenn onboard pretty quick, presumably 19:26 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: you could harass fenn 19:26 < kanzure> yeah 19:26 < delinquentme> but this is also a startup -- not intelectual ventures 19:27 < kanzure> delinquentme: you should ask the other team members to loop you in on conversations with investors so you can see how this game is played 19:27 < kanzure> delinquentme: right now i get the impression that you have ideas about how this game works that don't map to reality 19:27 < kragen> yes, that is super good advice 19:28 < kragen> the most valuable thing you can get out of your first startup is investor face time 19:28 < kanzure> the likelihood of them looping you in is pretty small, but meh 19:28 < kragen> not just because you get to know investors but because you get to see, as kanzure says, how the game is played 19:28 < kanzure> you could offer to provide some service, like follow-up scheduling and shit 19:28 < kanzure> they would appreciate that 19:28 < kragen> it depends on your relationship with them and what kind of impression they think you'll make 19:29 < kanzure> right... best to go with "complete silence" or something at first. 19:29 < kragen> fenn, http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/01/does-global-warming-make-me-look-fat/383509/ on exposing yourself to cold 19:29 < kanzure> that's from the future and therefore unacceptable 19:30 < kanzure> mothers against time travel 19:30 < fenn> "The sturdy Han Solo–style garment" 19:30 < fenn> the universe is trying to tell me something 19:30 < kanzure> quick, find your decoder ring! 19:30 < fenn> it's saying eat more ice cream i think 19:30 < kragen> everything on this channel is from the future, kanzure 19:31 < jrayhawk_> FWIW i found cold thermogenesis a lot more pleasant in ketosis 19:31 < kragen> quick, eat your decoder ring 19:31 < kragen> that's interesting, jrayhawk_ 19:31 < jrayhawk_> the threshold for glycolytic thermogenesis was a lot harder to hit 19:32 < kragen> you mean you had to be a lot colder before you would start to upregulate your metabolism 19:33 < kragen> that seems strange since i thought one of the major supposed benefits of ketosis was that it's less responsive, i.e. changes less slowly 19:33 < kragen> sorry for the absence of question marks 19:33 < fenn> swimming lets you burn more energy simply because the increased cooling prevents heat-induced muscle fatigue 19:33 < fenn> you can "sprint" for much longer in water than on land 19:34 < jrayhawk_> if your metabolism doesn't upregulate in response to cold, most of your body shuts down pretty fast 19:34 < kanzure> i am not sure muscle heat is the limiting factor in sprinting? 19:34 < jrayhawk_> it's just a question of which metabolic processes are used to generate entropy 19:35 < jrayhawk_> in this case BAT uses decoupled oxphos, which is extremely efficient but low throughput, and shivering uses glycolysis, which is extremely inefficient but high-throughput 19:36 < jrayhawk_> and, more importantly, mammals *hate* shivering 19:36 < kragen> what do you mean by 'inefficient' 19:37 < jrayhawk_> inefficient from the perspective of cellular and mitochondrial respiration 19:37 < kragen> like you only convert 50 percent of the chemical energy into heat and the other 50 percent gets transformed into radio waves or something 19:37 < fenn> dark energy 19:38 < kragen> i mean i understand if we are talking about producing atp from stuff but we are talking about warming up your body, aren't we 19:38 < fenn> it's also found in dark chocolate 19:38 < kanzure> dark energy http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110427010421/yuyuhakusho/images/thumb/b/b4/Hiei_Darkness_Flame_Ep30.jpg/500px-Hiei_Darkness_Flame_Ep30.jpg 19:39 < jrayhawk_> oxidative phosphorylation doesn't happen in a vacuum 19:39 < fenn> yes it needs oxygen 19:40 < kragen> or as a great american said recently, 'i can't breathe. i can't breathe. i can't breathe' 19:40 < kragen> seriously though 19:41 < jrayhawk_> turns out you don't need to breath nearly as much when the mammalian dive reflex kicks in 19:41 < kragen> it seems to me like metabolic processes are going to be a rounding error away from 100 percent efficient when we're evaluating them as means of producing heat 19:42 < fenn> maybe he means "with less deleterious side effects" 19:42 < kragen> except for, like, photosynthesis, or if you look at just one part of oxphos or the krebs cycle or whatever, a part where you still have output products with substantial energy left in them 19:42 < jrayhawk_> efficiency can refer to inputs as well as outputs 19:42 < kragen> oh, that could be. is that what you mean, jrayhawk_ 19:43 < fenn> sugar is scarce in eskimo-land so fat-burning conserves sugar? 19:43 < jrayhawk_> i don't really care enough to explain things to you; as near as i can tell you look up none of the words you don't understand and just start inferring in insane directions 19:43 < jrayhawk_> so telling you more words you don't understand just makes things worse 19:45 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47 < kanzure> maybe paperbot should also track tagged bookmarks for papers 19:48 < kanzure> dump straight into jotmuch, even 19:48 < kanzure> also, i am not sure why paperbot has been failing lately, i assume software reasons 19:49 < fenn> it's a simple matter of programming 19:49 < fenn> not enough codes 19:49 < kanzure> right 19:50 < kanzure> although maybe some of the user agent strings have been blockened 19:50 < kanzure> i would expect more .txt links in that case 19:50 < kanzure> and .txt links have not been happening for a while now 19:51 < jrayhawk_> volume on paperbot links is pretty low; you could just start logging *everything* 19:51 < kanzure> i have been logging everything 19:51 < jrayhawk_> oh good; where do those wind up 19:51 < kanzure> #paperbot-testing 19:52 < jrayhawk_> fancy 19:52 < kanzure> might be more productive to just focus on paperbot v2 19:52 < kanzure> since it's less of a shitpile 19:53 < kragen> jrayhawk_: no, i did in fact look up a bunch of things in order to clarify your earlier remarks about lipopolysaccharides. it's just that what you were saying just now didn't make any sense 19:53 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot/tree/master/paperbot 19:54 < fenn> pyruvate, the byproduct of glycolysis, is oxidized in the citric acid cycle, so in the end all the energy is released regardless which pathway you use 19:54 < kragen> but i don't think the problem is that it didn't make any sense -to me-, although i didn't come out and say that at the time because that would be rude 19:55 < kragen> however, clearly it was a mistake to attempt to extend courtesy to you, since you interpreted courtesy as weakness and an invitation to attack 19:56 < kanzure> haha that was an attack? 19:56 < jrayhawk_> if that was an attack, i refuse to believe you have ever talked to kanzure 19:56 < kragen> heh 19:56 < jrayhawk_> kanzure would've just been all "fuck you" because he's much better at this than me 19:56 < kragen> you hvae a point 19:57 < kragen> anyway, i've recalibrated now 19:57 < kanzure> no what i would be worried about is an actual jrayhawk attack 19:57 < kanzure> you'd be catatonic for a decade 19:57 < kragen> heh 19:57 < kragen> i'm sure i'll survive 19:57 < kragen> i just won't bend over backwards to be polite any more 19:58 < kanzure> that preggo didn't 19:58 < jrayhawk_> that's good 19:59 < kanzure> i like this place 20:00 < fenn> in engineering there are different kinds of efficiency: thermodynamic efficiency, combustion efficiency, volumetric efficiency... it's unclear (to me at least) which one jrayhawk meant, if any of these 20:00 < jrayhawk_> i am really not interested in writing a three hour lecture on the limits imposed by mitochondrial respiration 20:00 < jrayhawk_> you guys get to look that up 20:01 < kragen> i think you were just saying something incoherent and you're embarrassed to admit it 20:01 < kragen> it's going to be okay 20:02 < fenn> one problem is that most biology texts assume you start with glucose, not fatty acids 20:02 < kragen> it's not actually a big deal 20:02 < jrayhawk_> though i was referring strictly to efficient use of inputs, fenn's 'side effects' are also a valuable and important inference 20:04 < jrayhawk_> or, rather, that one input 20:05 < fenn> which input? 20:05 < jrayhawk_> oxygen 20:05 < fenn> now i am really confused 20:06 < kanzure> shivering, oxygen, dive reflex, keep track come on 20:06 < fenn> i had never heard of the dive reflex before a few hours ago 20:06 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:06 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:08 < fenn> bradycardia and peripheral vasoconstriction don't seem to be what happens in healthy people exposed to cold 20:09 < fenn> you would quickly get frostbite 20:09 < kragen> it depends on how much cold 20:09 < kragen> there's a thing called the hunter's reflex 20:09 < kragen> it took me a few months of south dakota winter before it started to activate 20:10 < kragen> but yeah, peripheral vasoconstriction is in fact one of the first responses in a healthy person exposed tocold 20:10 < kragen> to cold 20:11 < fenn> i guess this is "hunting" like the way a thermostat hunts for the setpoint by turning the heat on and off 20:11 < kragen> no, it's 'hunting' like 'squatting behind a blind waiting for your prey to appear' 20:12 < kragen> although it does oscillate 20:13 < jrayhawk_> re: paperbot v2: but rewrites killed netscape and wordstar! do you seriously think you can out-program billion-dollar compa- 20:13 < jrayhawk_> oh wait, it's kanzure, nevermind 20:13 < kragen> also paperbot is less functionality in orders of magnitude more memory and cpu than wordstar 20:13 < kragen> which is not a criticism 20:14 < jrayhawk_> yeah, i can't make that joke work properly 20:14 < jrayhawk_> it requires a mix of obliviousness and acuity 20:14 < kragen> yeah 20:14 < kragen> only an insane person would think they had to, say, write an http daemon that fits in two kilobytes of i386 code 20:14 < fenn> they're called "alpha males" because they're crude and not ready for the public 20:14 < jrayhawk_> i should've relied on kanzure to straightman it 20:14 < kanzure> honestly i sort of forget whether or not paperbot actually worked in the first place 20:15 < kanzure> like, everything being unavailable is sort of not unexpected 20:15 < kanzure> so i am having trouble estimating my surprisal about failures these days 20:15 < kanzure> oh right, nmz787 fetches the paper sometimes 20:15 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:16 < kanzure> so therefore paperbot is breaking somewhere 20:18 < kanzure> fwiw i think lkcl legitimately believes that he could handle a webkit rewrite 20:21 < kragen> that sounds like a productive thing for him to do 20:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:22 < kanzure> well, servo might be more productive these days 20:22 < jrayhawk_> what's wrong with webkit that would actually be served by a rewrite 20:26 < kragen> webkit uses an order of magnitude more ram than simpler html rendering engines like the ones in dillo and elinks 20:26 < jrayhawk_> it also supports orders of magnitude more features 20:27 < kragen> it would be nice if that were true 20:27 < kragen> it does support some more features 20:27 < jrayhawk_> javascript, css, XSLT, etc. 20:27 < jrayhawk_> Sure would be nice if any webkit browsers supported disabling CSS. 20:27 < kragen> it doesn't support javascript; that's a separate thing 20:28 < kragen> dillo and elinks do support css, to some extent 20:28 < jrayhawk_> and elinks soooortof sometimes supports js 20:28 < kragen> yeah but you wouldn't have to rewrite v8 or nitro to rewrite webkit 20:28 < jrayhawk_> wait, how does elinks support css 20:28 < kragen> you could use them with your new engine 20:28 < kragen> very poorly 20:29 < kragen> i don't know anything about how webkit supports xslt 20:29 < jrayhawk_> like, what is a css feature that elinks supports 20:29 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:29 < kragen> font color iirc 20:29 < jrayhawk_> " If you have use of background colors enabled more pages will have the intended background color. Also quite a few additional text attributes are applied. One example is highlighting of search words on Google's cached pages." 20:29 < jrayhawk_> oh man, i hope they support blinks and marquees 20:30 < jrayhawk_> that'd be great 20:30 < kragen> haha 20:31 < jrayhawk_> oh, and multimedia, i suppose 20:31 < kragen> anyway webkit is sort of spectacularly inefficient compared to the platonic ideal html parser 20:32 < kragen> so it would be nice if we could get xslt for the pages that use it without making every page take up megabytes of dom memory 20:32 < kragen> but frankly i don't think it's going to happen because if it was going to happen it would have happened in 2000 or 2001 20:33 < kragen> when it was legitimately a pain that mozilla was using a hundred megs of ram 20:33 < fenn> jrayhawk_: just use sudo display: inline !important 20:34 < fenn> i was going to say "but you can just override malicious CSS" but that's not quite true 20:34 < kragen> display: inline !shibboleet !important !please 20:35 < fenn> such style 20:35 < kragen> i can't be the only person who consistently reads '!important' as 'not important' 20:36 < kragen> and i think that anything other than, say, security or performance could be attacked more effectively by adding code to webkit than by rewriting it 20:37 < kragen> but lkcl should have something to do that doesn't consist of pissing people off 20:37 < kragen> writing a new browser engine sounds perfect 20:37 < kragen> as long as nobody uses it 20:42 < jrayhawk_> what are some other kitchen sink specifications that nobody can agree on what the safe and prudent subsets to implement are? there's c++, for which the bloated GNU implementation got replaced by clang reasonably effectively... 20:43 < fenn> perl, apparently 20:43 < fenn> jrayhawk_: this list will probably go on gaining in size faster than we can enumerate it 20:44 < jrayhawk_> perl5 would be disastrous to call a specification, and perl6 never got finalized 20:44 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-48-18.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:44 < jrayhawk_> though i guess pugs was pretty efficient insofar as these things go 20:45 < fenn> parrot was probably worth something 20:45 < jrayhawk_> would've been had llvm not come along with a BSD license 20:45 < fenn> right 20:51 < kanzure> people who get pissed off of at lkcl are just ignorant 20:53 < fenn> so i am interested in using "mobile" GPU like mali450 to do GPGPU, anyone know about the state of things or what to look into? 20:53 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@d172-218-204-36.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:54 < fenn> these are found in ARM SoC like every cellphone 20:55 * fenn looks at http://limadriver.org/Compiler/ 20:56 < kragen> clang replacing gcc is a matter of apple feeling a life-or-death fear of the gplv3 20:56 < kragen> fenn: i made some notes about mail450 gpgpu recentl 20:57 < fenn> i am trying to do computer vision, OCR, maybe SDR stuff 20:57 < kragen> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8750592 are my notes on gpgpu on the odroid-c1 20:58 < kanzure> "None of those stories have to do with a fault of Bitcoin, but rather bad 3rd party company practices. Unlike a breach of the Home Depot website, which strikes at the core of USD's credibility." 20:58 < fenn> kanzure: credit card, not USD 20:59 < kragen> kanzure: that is hilarious 20:59 < kanzure> credit card denominated USD 20:59 < fenn> bank bailout is USD 20:59 < kanzure> nah that was treasury bond interest rate swaps 20:59 < kragen> the odroid-c1 does use a mali-450 mp2, so this is relevant 20:59 < kanzure> or some shit 21:00 < fenn> kragen: yes the odroid uses the same cpu family as my new toy 21:01 < kragen> hopefully my notes there are relevant 21:01 < kragen> let me know if you find anything else related 21:01 < fenn> thank you, i will read this and get back to you 21:02 < fenn> i dont remember why i passed up the odroid-c1 21:03 < kragen> it looks pretty appealing 21:05 < fenn> i think i wanted more ram 21:05 < fenn> but for $35 holy bejeezus that's a lot of stuff 21:07 < kanzure> why is there still no open source baseband chip? 21:07 < fenn> what is a baseband chip 21:07 < kanzure> has nobody written a good (available) protocol to implement? 21:07 < kanzure> .wik baseband processor 21:07 < yoleaux> "A baseband processor (also known as baseband radio processor, BP, or BBP) is a device (a chip or part of a chip) in a network interface that manages all the radio functions (all functions that require an antenna). This may not include Wi-Fi and/or Bluetooth. A baseband processor typically uses its own RAM and firmware." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseband_processor 21:08 < fenn> (technical note: baseband refers to transmissions from 0Hz on up, usually used in copper wire networking equipment such as ethernet i.e. 10BASE-T) 21:09 < kanzure> is an fpga implementation too slow? 21:09 < fenn> no 21:09 < fenn> it's probably not even desirable 21:09 < kanzure> maybe nobody has access to a well documented antenna interface? 21:10 < fenn> is this the same thing or is it the other end? http://openbts.org/hardware/ 21:11 < kanzure> hrm, you know, i can't tel 21:11 < kanzure> *tell 21:12 < fenn> i think it's the tower hardware 21:12 < kanzure> that may just be a form factor issue only 21:12 < fenn> so i have no idea why there isn't an equivalent mobile transciever project 21:12 < fenn> tower does a lot more stuff than the phone 21:13 < kanzure> true.. but phone might just be restricted because shitty engineering decisions.. 21:13 < kanzure> like, there are strict power constraints, sure, but your phone is not always mobile anyway 21:13 < fenn> yes it's very master-slave relationship 21:13 < fenn> like the tower says jump, phone asks how high? 21:13 < kanzure> right, and i don't think that's necessary (other than physical constraints) 21:14 < fenn> it's not necessary and a gaping huge security hole that aliens can teleport through 21:14 < fenn> like in howard the duck 21:14 < kanzure> so therefore a tower thing might be sufficient 21:14 < kanzure> and perhaps nobody has compressed the form factor yet 21:14 < kanzure> but this seems a little absurd to me 21:14 < fenn> i'm saying the protocol is bad 21:14 < kanzure> surely they have a protocol in here that they baked in? 21:15 * kanzure warily clicks "documentation" 21:15 < kanzure> http://openbts.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/OpenBTS-4.0-Manual.pdf 21:16 < fenn> there is so much horrible telephony stuff that just needs to go away forever 21:16 < kanzure> "OpenBTS Implementation of GSM & 3GPP Specifications and IETF Standards" 21:16 < kanzure> what's the ietf stuff? 21:17 < kanzure> RFC-3428 21:17 < kanzure> huh so maybe this project really has no soul 21:17 < kanzure> wtf? 21:17 < fenn> it's just an open hardware implementation of the tower protocol 21:18 < fenn> SIP has nothing to do with it afaict 21:18 < fenn> aside from routing the packets 21:20 < kanzure> hrm so okay, at minimum there is no obvious good cell2cell tower2cell protocol 21:20 < kanzure> and then on top of that, form factor hardware issues for cell phones 21:21 < fenn> oh i see, i think it can translate from VoIP to POTS via Asterix 21:21 < fenn> asterisk 21:21 < kanzure> hehe match the evolution of the actual telecom industry i guess? 21:22 < kanzure> that's probably the only way to understand all the bad decisions i suppose 21:22 < fenn> there is no phone to phone protocol(?) 21:22 < kanzure> "why am i on the same subnet as hong kong?" 21:22 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:22 < fenn> there's no "ad hoc mode" for GSM 21:24 < fenn> phones are rather shitty radios, the tower does all the hard work 21:24 < kanzure> i think phones are better transceivers when you are okay with high latency and waiting 10 hours until someone plugs them 21:24 < kanzure> *them in 21:25 < kragen> 05:13 < kanzure> right, and i don't think that's necessary (other than physical constraints) 21:25 < kragen> no, it's clearly not necessary, but it does simplify some things a lot 21:26 < fenn> serval mesh is trying to do something like VoIP telephony over a mesh network of mobile phones... 21:26 < fenn> but it uses wifi, not gsm 21:27 < kanzure> emphasis on real-time really bothers me 21:27 < fenn> about phones in general? or the baseband processor stuff 21:27 < kanzure> they need to relax and allow for any implementation to happen at all 21:27 < kanzure> nah mesh network stuff 21:27 < kanzure> like voice over ip stuff as v0 demos for mesh networking 21:27 < kragen> real-time is really important for mesh networking 21:27 < kanzure> by which i think they mean two-way voice 21:28 < kragen> oh 21:28 < kragen> you mean real-time applications of the network 21:28 < kanzure> right 21:28 < kragen> not real-time software to run the baseband 21:28 < kanzure> i don't even know what the constraints of the undesigned network are yet, so adding application constraints is crazy 21:28 < fenn> yes latency is an important characteristic of routers, regardless of application 21:29 < kragen> yeah, what i mean is that meeting low-latency constraints becomes much more challenging in a mesh network world 21:29 < kragen> it's really hard to do cut-through wormhole routing when your received signal is 100 db quieter than your transmitted signal 21:30 < kragen> and in the same medium 21:30 < fenn> obviously a single fiber has better latency than many hops with pauses at each hop to verify and retransmit bad packets 21:30 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:31 < kragen> even if you eliminate the verify-and-retransmit nonsense 21:31 < fenn> hrm i guess TCP just drops packets anyway 21:31 < kragen> multihop radio networks do typically do hop-by-hop retransmission in order to get acceptable packet loss rates 21:32 < kragen> but you could presumably use turbo codes or some nonsense instead 21:33 -!- augur_ is now known as augur 21:34 < fenn> you must use the proper noun "le Turbo Code" 21:34 < delinquentme> fenn, capitalization plz 21:35 < delinquentme> "~Le~ Turbo Code" 21:35 < delinquentme> IM EATING COOKIES MOFUGGRS 21:35 < fenn> party woo 21:36 < jrayhawk_> actually that dogged insistence on applying "thermal" to all instances of the word "efficiency" raises an interesting point: are there any biological systems doing >100% heating efficiency? 21:36 < jrayhawk_> seems conceptually simple, but i can't think of any 21:36 < fenn> lizards 21:36 < fenn> no wait 21:37 * delinquentme dances 21:37 < delinquentme> also akira 21:38 < kanzure> delinquentme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl9GGiwtD98&index=49&list=FL1sapBsRQ1__rgp7qWs0cow 21:38 < fenn> i can't think of any.. most life is cold-blooded anyway 21:39 < delinquentme> hmmmmmmm! 21:39 < fenn> there is probably some sea creature that derives energy from the thermal layer near the ocean surface 21:39 < fenn> but that's the opposite 21:40 < fenn> like the drinking bird physics toy 21:41 < jrayhawk_> i would expect some extremophile mammal to do it reversibly 21:41 < jrayhawk_> like a camel or something 21:41 < jrayhawk_> but i guess it's just too big a genetic leap 21:42 < fenn> water vapor condensation is some kind of heat pump 21:42 < jrayhawk_> Yeah, at least we got that going for us. 21:42 < delinquentme> kanzure, youve seen spriggan ja? 21:43 < delinquentme> fenn, you just cant explain that 21:43 < fenn> there are chilean beetles that collect water vapor on their backs, so heat necessarily flows into the shell 21:43 < fenn> desert beetles 21:44 < fenn> and of course lots of plants collect dew 21:44 < jrayhawk_> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12786594 21:44 < jrayhawk_> fascinating 21:45 < fenn> by golly 21:45 < fenn> .title 21:45 < yoleaux> Natural thermoelectric heat pump in social wasps. - PubMed - NCBI 21:45 < jrayhawk_> still cooling rather than heating, but that's pretty goddamned whizbang amazing 21:47 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/hornet_thermoelectric_cooling.pdf 21:48 < kanzure> "Electronic address: physio7@post.tau.ac.il" 21:49 < fenn> if it's a heat pump there should be a part of the hornet that is hotter than ambient as well 21:49 < kanzure> "web electron receptable street address" 21:49 < kanzure> *receptacle 21:49 < fenn> vs just water evaporation 21:50 < kanzure> let's steal that part 21:50 < fenn> oh its thorax is actually warmer (and the abdomen is colder) in figure 1 c 21:52 < fenn> that could be heat from the exertion of flying 21:52 < kanzure> jrayhawk did you see the ecoli fatty acid synthesis stuff 21:53 < jrayhawk_> Don't think so. 21:53 < kanzure> "glyoxylate shunt to introduce fatty acid metabolism to human liver cells, to convert fat into glucose" http://2013.igem.org/Team:Hong_Kong_HKUST/Project 21:54 < fenn> that wasn't it 21:54 < kanzure> "yeast production of unsaturated fatty acids, docasapentaenoic acid (DPA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)" http://2014.igem.org/Team:HUST-Innovators# 21:54 < kanzure> "ecoli synthesis of fatty acids" http://2014.igem.org/Team:NJU-QIBEBT/team/Overview 21:54 < fenn> http://2014.igem.org/Team:HUST-Innovators# yeast production of unsaturated fatty acids, docasapentaenoic acid (DPA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) 21:55 < fenn> you might want to turn off css for this one 21:56 < fenn> oh it looks ok in webkit 21:57 < fenn> bah there is nothing there 21:58 < fenn> "here is a screenshot of our sequence" 21:59 < kanzure> er try another page maybe 21:59 -!- vi is now known as Qfwfq 22:00 -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@58.182.38.58] has quit [Changing host] 22:00 -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:01 < kanzure> we definitely need a better list of "metabolic stuff to fix" 22:01 < kanzure> and "metabolism stuff to steal from other species" 22:01 < kanzure> "also vitamin stuff" 22:02 < fenn> i feel like i am using hypercard 22:03 < kanzure> but really it's mediawiki 22:03 < fenn> how did they fuck up a mediawiki page so badly 22:03 < kanzure> everything on igem.org is mediawiki 22:03 < fenn> i mean you have to work to make something this bad 22:04 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:04 < kanzure> they give out prizes for "best website" 22:04 < fenn> ugh 22:04 < kanzure> so they have an incentive to make shitty websites 22:04 < fenn> they should give out prizes for actually fucking finishing your project 22:05 < kanzure> i think they have that, it went to the bioart team 22:06 < fenn> http://parts.igem.org/Part:BBa_K1551000 apparently this thing is the result of their project 22:07 < kanzure> .title 22:07 < yoleaux> Part:BBa K1551000 - parts.igem.org 22:07 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08 < fenn> "delta-4 fatty acid Desaturase so as to synthesize the DHA." 22:08 < fenn> unclear exactly what is on the plasmid 22:08 < fenn> also no sequence data? is igem always like this? 22:09 < kanzure> my advisor gave me so many earfuls about how awful igem was heh 22:09 < fenn> i guess "not released" means incomplete for some unspecified reason 22:11 < fenn> how i wished this project ended: with HPLC traces of DPA and EPA, and a plasmid sequence 22:13 < kanzure> i should make a "geocities or igem?" site 22:14 < fenn> industrial conversion of flax oil to EPA+DHA would be really useful 22:14 < kanzure> "area51 site or bored undergrads wasting their advisor's reagents?" 22:14 < fenn> meh it's education, i just wish they weren't doing it on my time :P 22:15 < fenn> i mean go ahead, make a website, but why the fuck does any igem team need to do web design at all 22:19 < fenn> "Illegal BsaI site found at 1700 22:19 < fenn> seems to indicate that iGEM has an actual sequence on file 22:19 < fenn> but they won't show it for some reason 22:20 < kanzure> i would worry about correct/broken up/down regulation of implanted metabolism or synthesis 22:21 < kanzure> maybe you could find something in human that is expressed similarly, or doubly more than enough, and use those promoters so that the expression of your other thing will be tied to those levels 22:22 < fenn> aha it's hidden in some javascript thing 22:23 < fenn> String('agacggattagaagccgccgagcgggtgacagccctccgaaggaagactctcctccgtgcgtcctcgtcttcaccggtcgcgttcctgaaacgcagatgtgcctcgcgccgcactgctccgaacaataaagattctacaatactagcttttatggttatgaagaggaaaaattggcagtaacctggccccacaaaccttcaaatgaacgaatcaaattaacaaccataggatgataatgcgattagttttttagccttatttctggggtaattaatcagcgaagcgatgatttttgatctattaacagatatataaatgcaaaaactgcataaccactttaactaatactttcaacattttcggtttgtattacttcttattcaaatgtaa 22:23 < fenn> taaaagtatcaacaaaaaattgttaatatacctctatactttaacgtcaaggagaaaaaacatgggcaagggcagcgagggccgcagcgcggcgcgcgagatgacggccgaggcgaacggcgacaagcggaaaacgattctgatcgagggcgtcctgtacgacgcgacgaactttaagcacccgggcggttcgatcatcaacttcttgaccgagggcgaggccggcgtggacgcgacgcaggcgtaccgcgagtttcatcagcggtccggcaaggccgacaagtacctcaagtcgctgccgaagctggatgcgtccaaggtggagtcgcggttctcggccaaagagcaggcgcggcgcgacgccatgacgcgcgactacgcggcctttcgcgaggagct 22:23 < fenn> cgtcgccgaggggtactttgacccgtcgatcccgcacatgatttaccgcgtcgtggagatcgtggcgctcttcgcgctctcgttctggctcatgtccaaggcctcgcccacctcgctcgtgctgggcgtggtgatgaacggcattgcgcagggccgctgcggctgggtcatgcacgagatgggccacgggtcgttcacgggcgtcatctggctcgacgaccggatgtgcgagttcttctacggcgtcggctgcggcatgagcgggcactactggaagaaccagcacagcaagcaccacgccgcgcccaaccgcctcgagcacgatgtcgatctcaacacgctgcccctggtcgcctttaacgagcgcgtcgtgcgcaaggtcaagccgggatcgctgct 22:23 < fenn> ggcgctctggctgcgcgtgcaggcgtacctctttgcgcccgtctcgtgcctgctcatcggccttggctggacgctctacctgcacccgcgctacatgctgcgcaccaagcggcacatggagttcgtctggatcttcgcgcgctacattggctggttctcgctcatgggcgctctcggctactcgccgggcacctcggtcgggatgtacctgtgctcgttcggcctcggctgcatttacattttcctacaattcgccgtcagccacacgcacctgccggtgaccaacccggaggaccagctgcactggctcgagtacgcggccgaccacacggtgaacattagcaccaagtcctggctcgtcacgtggtggatgtcgaacctgaactttcagatcgagca 22:23 < fenn> ccacctcttccccacggcgccgcagttccgcttcaaggaaatcagtcctcgcgtcgaggccctcttcaagcgccacaacctcccgtactacgacctgccctacacgagcgcggtctcgaccacctttgccaatctttattccgtcggccactcggtcggcgccgacaccaagaagcaggactgaatgtaattagttatgtcacgcttacattcacgccctccccccacatccgctctaaccgaaaaggaaggagttagacaacctgaagtctaggtccctatttatttttttatagttatgttagtattaagaacgttatttatatttcaaatttttcttttttttctgtacagacgcgtgtacgcatgtaacattatactgaaaaccttgcttgagaa 22:23 < fenn> ggttttgggacgctcgaaggctttaatttgcaagct'); 22:23 < fenn> muwahahaha 22:23 < fenn> ok i'm done now 22:24 < delinquentme> fenn that new line caused a frameshift 22:24 < delinquentme> now you've got a tail 22:24 < fenn> did i paste a newline? 22:25 < delinquentme> kanzure, of the people in this channel ... how many actually have said something in the past year? 22:25 < delinquentme> any idea? 22:25 < fenn> almost all of them 22:26 < delinquentme> fenn, numbers plz 22:26 < fenn> dunno who these people are: altersid_ kenju254 crescendo dvorkbjel nArkos_ night 22:27 < delinquentme> HEx2, 22:27 < delinquentme> comma8, 22:28 < delinquentme> sivoais, 22:28 < comma8> hi 22:28 < comma8> I dunno how I got here 22:28 < sivoais> 10101010101101 22:29 < sivoais> wait, are we asking for numbers now? 22:29 < fenn> http://hexwab.plus.com/~HEx/ looks pretty hackerly 22:31 < delinquentme> people are alivveee 22:32 < fenn> .tw https://twitter.com/hmason/status/520367337925390337 22:32 < yoleaux> TIL that the phrase software "patch" is from a physical patch applied to Mark 1 paper tape to modify the program. http://t.co/v8iVq6Hjar (@hmason) 22:45 < fenn> "By designing interlocking blocks, the need for mortar (the white compound between bricks to hold them in place) is eliminated." not really sure how this works http://kenju254.blogspot.com/2012/07/interlocking-stabilised-soil-blocks.html 22:45 -!- Boscop [me@unaffiliated/boscop] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:48 < maaku> fenn: worked in japanese construction for thousands of years 22:49 < fenn> japanese joinery is pretty intricate 22:49 < fenn> these just look like roughly rectangular wedges 22:50 < fenn> oh it's like tongue and groove flooring: http://www.volumization.com/images/Block_Making/STEP6.jpg 22:51 < kragen> jrayhawk_: i don't think there are any biological heat pumps, no 22:52 < fenn> kragen what's your opinion on http://fennetic.net/irc/hornet_thermoelectric_cooling.pdf 22:52 < kragen> to heat things up i mean 22:54 < kragen> my opinion is that i didn't know about that previously and it will be awesome to find out if it is actually happening 22:54 < fenn> their argument is basically "it can't be water evaporation because insects have waxy impermeable coatings" 22:56 -!- Evoril [~Evoril@86-45-222-8-dynamic.agg2.crw.prp-wtd.eircom.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:57 -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:57 < fenn> citations should always include the title of the cited paper 22:59 < fenn> paperbot: sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002219109290020E 23:02 < fenn> .title http://phys.org/news/2011-01-physicists-outer-shell-hornet-harvest.html 23:02 < yoleaux> Physicists discover how the outer shell of a hornet can harvest solar power 23:04 < delinquentme> HEHEHEH 23:04 < delinquentme> Paddy hat 23:04 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/hornet_photovoltaic.pdf 23:06 < fenn> 100mV from 360nm light is not the best solar cell ever 23:08 < fenn> woah Ochiai is a real scientist 23:09 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:10 < kragen> heh 23:11 < kragen> biological systems are optimized, even within their reachable envelope, for resilience rather than efficiency 23:13 * fenn mumbles about dancing bears 23:15 < fenn> oh that was from a different universe. "The amazing thing about the dancing bear is not how well it dances, but that it dances at all." 23:16 < delinquentme> know what fixes that bear? 23:16 < delinquentme> captivity and whips 23:16 < delinquentme> MURIKA 23:17 < delinquentme> maybe time to cut back on the cookies 23:22 < fenn> since the hornet's photovoltaic effect only occurs between 360-380nm it's not just an accidental physical phenomenon like the photoelectric effect in metals 23:23 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24 < kragen> they said that was the peak quantum efficiency 23:24 < fenn> the wavelength vs efficiency curve looks like a black body radiation distribution 23:24 < fenn> i dont know what that implies 23:24 < kragen> i don't either 23:25 < kragen> perhaps that there is some distribution of bandgaps, so it's not perfectly sharp, but energy beyond that needed for the bandgap just becomes heat 23:26 < kragen> but it seems like we're talking about a fairly tiny efficiency anyway 23:26 < kragen> still, it might be the lowest-cost photovoltaic material per watt, depending on how cheaply you can fabricate things like copper oxides ;) 23:27 < fenn> the photovoltaic effect is probably a side effect of its actual function as a heat pump 23:28 < fenn> solid state heat pumps are stacked semiconductors; the top layer of semiconductor, when exposed to light, would generate a voltage 23:28 < kragen> ahhh 23:28 < kragen> that makes a lot of sense 23:28 < fenn> but when a voltage is applied across the entire stack, the whole stack moves heat around 23:29 < kragen> rght 23:29 < kragen> right 23:29 < fenn> in the other paper they are trying to show the stacked structure in electron micrographs, but it's somewhat of a stretch. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and all that 23:31 < fenn> there are about 30 layers so it would require at least 3V from the hornet in operation 23:32 < fenn> insects often use this sort of layered structure to generate colors, like dichroics 23:32 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:33 < fenn> it would be interesting if they also used it as camouflage from heat-sensing predators 23:37 < kragen> 3v is doable with metals 23:37 < kragen> but i guess the usual approach is like a capacitor ladder 23:38 < kragen> like in an electric eel 23:43 < nmz787> fenn can you at least give me a bit of an explanation of what else I'd need to finish that parts list for the laser etcher? I'd like to order parts soon. 23:47 < fenn> hmm. well looking at the rendering it still needs a screw, nut, bearing and bracket, stepper motors, coupler between stepper and screw, anti-backlash mechanism or just a spring, and a work table to mount the part you're etching upon 23:48 < fenn> also maybe a bellvue washer/spring to take out slop in the bearings 23:49 < fenn> you want to mount two opposed angle bearings on the same end of the screw, and another radial bearing on the other end of the screw so it doesn't whip around 23:49 < fenn> i'm pretty sure i wrote this down in the wiki/repository somewhere 23:50 < fenn> oh yes the nut mount flexure was a cute finishing touch 23:51 < fenn> heh cody daniel http://www.mad-engineer.com/engineering/pet-projects/3-axis-cnc-mill/attachment/sony-dsc-9/ 23:51 < fenn> stupid universe implosion 23:52 < ebowden> +ping 23:53 < fenn> "thanks for supporting the 1 mile clock" you're welcome 23:57 < maaku> kanzure: I asked about kinematic replicators earlier because i think there's a viable business opportunity there in off-world resource extraction 23:57 < maaku> principally on the moon and near-earth asteroids 23:57 < fenn> once you're at that point, commerce ceases to be important 23:58 < fenn> there's only resources, strategy, and knowledge 23:58 < maaku> automated in-situ self-replicating manufacturing capability, even if it generates low-quality materials, can be instrumental in building infrastracture to support extraction of more profitable resources 23:58 < maaku> fenn: eh, prices won't go to zero 23:59 < maaku> i'm thinking more along the lines of sintering regolith to produce roads, warehouses, buildings, etc. 23:59 < fenn> you've read freitas right? 23:59 < maaku> yes --- Log closed Tue Dec 30 00:00:03 2014