--- Log opened Mon Feb 02 00:00:27 2015
--- Day changed Mon Feb 02 2015
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00:17 < FourFire> .
00:29 < bellow> I am trying to reconnect my Magnavox MBP 5120 blu-ray player to my Linksys routers wifi (which I have done before without trouble) and I am getting DHCP cannot be acquired. I have change the IP Address to manual on the blu-ray player without changing the IP address itself and no error. I have checked the routers settings and DHCP is enabled. Is the
00:29 < bellow> re a way to fix this? I had it connected just fine so I added the ip/mac address to the DHCP Reservation think that would help it did not.
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01:44 < FourFire> maaku, are you online now?
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03:13 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867415000598
03:13 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Intra-Spike%20Crosslinking%20Overcomes%20Antibody%20Evasion%20by%20HIV-1%0A%20.pdf
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03:48 < ebowden> http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/poll-shows-41-american-adults-believe-antibiotics-treat-viruses
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04:21 < eudoxia> hooray, paperbot is alive
04:21 < yoleaux> 06:44Z <kanzure> eudoxia: paperbot works again thank you
04:21 < ebowden> paperbot: http://jvi.asm.org/content/early/2014/12/26/JVI.03656-14
04:21 < paperbot> http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1128%2FJVI.03656-14
04:21 < chris_99> ooh paperbot you're alive
04:21 < archels> \o/
04:22 < ebowden> Damn. 404 not found.
04:22 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.fasebj.org/content/early/2015/01/21/fj.14-259531
04:22 < paperbot> http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1096%2Ffj.14-259531
04:23 < ebowden> Damn.
04:28 < archels> ebowden: want?
04:28 < archels> http://turingbirds.com/temp/fj.14-259531.full.pdf
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04:58 < ebowden> Oh, thanks.
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05:26 < maaku> missed FourFire again
05:27 < maaku> hi gwillen
05:29 < maaku> this is turning into a blockstream hangout zone
05:31 < andytoshi> kanzure: i'm afraid they don't let me reveal how to solve NP-hard problems to non-mathematicians
05:32 < andytoshi> (re your ping earlier about knapsack problem)
05:40 < maaku> andytoshi: i tried to convince him that dynamic programming, or linear programming would be his best bet
05:40 < maaku> better than the brute-force things he is trying...
05:48 < maaku> andytoshi: also is it correct that the change-making problem is the closest problem studied in the literature?
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05:54 < maaku> hi
05:56 < maaku> FourFire: if biology / genomics is your absolute favorite thing, great
05:57 < FourFire> maaku, well it's my favorite type of productive thing, yes
05:57 < FourFire> please, "but anyway, running out the door. i'll give you a longer explanation later
05:57 < FourFire> " do
05:57 < maaku> my point was more that hard sciences and engineering are skills you can pick up, but where else can you study early enlightenment French literature, or do field archeological digs in Egypt?
05:57 < maaku> sorry what was that in reference to?
05:58 < maaku> so if there is something esoteric that interests you, university is the time to do it -- and btw, this is generic advice I give every 1st year uni
05:58 < maaku> oh that was on why you should code
05:59 < maaku> Look, the thing is that code is the lingua franca of science and engineering
05:59 < maaku> It's not that everyone understands it -- most are incapable of reading code -- but if you write and release code, *people will use it*
06:00 < FourFire> maaku, ok well I don't care about any of those things
06:00 < maaku> Take two papers, one which comes with code attached, and one which is just published ideas
06:00 < FourFire> uhh, I thought mathematics was the language of science and enginnering
06:00 < maaku> and you think that is distinct from code?
06:00 < FourFire> yes
06:00 < maaku> code is transmissable mathmatics
06:01 < FourFire> Code is instructions executable on a computer, or pseudolanguage which is easily compilable to such
06:01 < heath> podcast on the dumbing down of user interfaces http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/of-mice-and-men/
06:01 < FourFire> ok, say your example with two papers
06:01 < maaku> ok re-using my exapmle. two papers: one which describes mathmatically a relationship, one which does the same but has a reusable R program
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06:02 < maaku> people will use the latter paper
06:02 < FourFire> fair enough
06:02 < maaku> because ultimately people are lazy
06:02 < heath> doug engelbart, steve jobs, monome
06:02 < FourFire> so, would I be stupid in not coding and trying to get said code published in places?
06:03 < maaku> so writing code is giving a user interface to your ideas. it is removing the amount of work required for people to reuse your non-coding work
06:04 < maaku> so if you do 2 years of painstaking lab work to discover optimal ratios of X given parameters Y and Z, then write up f(Y,Z) as some reusable snippet of R or Python or something and throw it on github
06:05 < maaku> it's surprising how many people skip this last step
06:05 < maaku> but *because* so many people skip this last step, you can actually go quite far just writing up existing knowledge into reusable code libraries
06:07 < maaku> so my advice to anyone in uni regardless of their focus, write up a reusable library or application that solves a problem there currently isn't simple code for
06:08 < maaku> throw it on github, people will use it, and you'll suddenly have a reputation for creating projects that work, a scarce ability in the real world (and one employers seek out)
06:08 < maaku> </rant>
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06:10 < FourFire> Ok, that sounds like a solid argument for me to try coding even if I only ever become a mediocre coder
06:10 < maaku> right
06:10 < FourFire> I'm following a C++ tutorial on the weekends with someone I met at my hackerspace, so I will know the syntax of at least one language soon
06:11 < FourFire> the thing which has prevented me from learning to code, apart from laziness was the idea that I would never be a *good* coder and so it wouldn't be worth the investment of learning it, for me
06:12 < FourFire> but I have to admit I have no idea about the actual opportunity costs for that decision of inaction
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06:15 < andytoshi> maaku: idk what's in the literature, i never really studied algorithms ... but agree with the dynamic or linear programming suggestion
06:16 < andytoshi> brute-force is gonna scale exponentially since there are 2^N subsets of a set of N outputs
06:18 < maaku> FourFire: you don't have to be "good" in the computer science sense to write good code. those are only minimally intersecting skills
06:18 < eudoxia> yeah, i don't even know what a category is and i r gud coder
06:19 < FourFire> maaku, I have to be able to code, which is distinct from knowing the syntax
06:20 < andytoshi> FourFire: i strongly discourage learning C++ as a first language
06:20 < FourFire> which is why I make the distinction, from outside the culture, I get the impression that many coders falsely believe they can code, and instead produce piles of cruddy stuff which breaks all the time, causing more competent coders to have to put out fires all the time
06:21 < FourFire> andytoshi, well too late.
06:21 < andytoshi> FourFire: lol :)
06:21 < eudoxia> as for first languages, this book made me the man i am today: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf
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06:22 < FourFire> I've already wasted too much time and effort determining which language to learn first, and once i learn C++ syntax i can learn what you were going to recommend me (probably python,java or ruby right?)
06:22 < FourFire> thanks, I'll read it when I can
06:23 < maaku> if you're in biology then R (great for data analysis) or Python (great for everything, not as good at R for data analysis)
06:23 < andytoshi> well, syntax should be trivial but in c++ it's really not, but that's only the tip of the iceberg..
06:23 < maaku> maybe kanzure has a recommendation
06:23 < maaku> but yeah avoid c++ like the plague
06:23 < FourFire> Why?
06:24 < andytoshi> c++ has a horrendously complicated machine model, tons of implicit behaviour, forces you to deal with pointers (but offers no help and often even inserts implicit code to trip you up)
06:24 < maaku> it's a giant trap designed to frustrate you, for all the reasons andytoshi mentioned
06:24 < eudoxia> kanzure will recommend python
06:24 < FourFire> why the fuck does every programmer seem to be selling a language are the only ones who agree are in achother's in groups but contradict different ingroups so solidly?!
06:24 < andytoshi> i've never heard anyone recommend c++
06:24 < maaku> except maybe game programmers
06:25 < andytoshi> i'd say learn python to get a feel for "typical syntax", then rust when you're good at python and want to learn low-level stuff
06:25 < FourFire> andytoshi, I've had people recommend PHP
06:25 < andytoshi> since rust has a sane machine model and its compiler understands pointers
06:25 < andytoshi> o.O
06:25 < maaku> c++ gives you raw machine performance *when you know how to use it*
06:25 < maaku> knowing how to use it takes years of effort
06:25 < andytoshi> PHP is not the -worst- thing in the world, if you were gonna do it i wouldn't discourage you because as you say you gotta pick something
06:26 < andytoshi> but PHP also has a lot of craziness and its interpreter is really bad at figuring stuff out
06:26 < maaku> and really for bio stuff the performance differential isn't that great. most of your time will be spent in specialized libraries (which might be written in c++ or fortran), but it doesn't matter if you call them from Python/R or C++
06:26 < FourFire> I'v already picked C++ together with the other guy who's learning with me
06:26 < eudoxia> FourFire: from someone who spent too much time jumping uselessly from one language to the other, never getting anything done: don't learn C++ as a first language
06:26 < maaku> so you get the benefit of C++'s speed while using a language that is either built for your application in mind (R) or simple to use (Python)
06:27 < maaku> FourFire: alright, fine. just you're in for a world of pain :)
06:27 < maaku> (I maintain C++ projects now in my day job)
06:27 < FourFire> ok
06:27 < FourFire> But for someone who wants to code plugins for programs written in C++
06:27 < maaku> yeah ok that's a different case
06:28 < FourFire> they could just write a plugin in whatever language and it would work?
06:28 < eudoxia> probably not
06:28 < maaku> it'd be more work than dealing with C++
06:28 < FourFire> so for them, it would make sense to learn C++, if not as a first language
06:28 < maaku> FourFire: use cases determine what language to use. this is a clear use case for C++
06:29 < FourFire> but I should learn R /Python?
06:29 < maaku> if you are in bio world, yes
06:29 < FourFire> I want to eventually hack together a portable (between machines) simulation environmentusing existing code, of course
06:29 < maaku> andytoshi: is there much numerical and data analysis stuff written for rust?
06:29 < maaku> or an interface to the R libraries?
06:30 < FourFire> this would be best if optimised as much as possible, but I always considered it a possibility to just pay a real programmer to do it for me
06:30 < FourFire> people who have programming as the main thing they do, they have to be like 5x better than I ever would be coding on the side
06:30 < FourFire> that's my assumption
06:31 < andytoshi> maaku: don't think so yet
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06:31 < andytoshi> rust-ci.org is an unofficial list of what's out there..
06:34 < andytoshi> FourFire: well, there are orders of magnitude difference in programming skill (much much more than 5x) but people who are really good are also really expensive and usually not on the market..
06:35 < andytoshi> but i think you wouldn't need a ton of skill to build some academic code
06:35 < andytoshi> optimization, sure, but that's something to deal with after it's working
06:35 < andytoshi> i also think anything that would need optimization is already in R..
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06:55 < maaku> right that's why i reccomend R and Python to bio or data analysis people who aren't first and foremost coders.
06:55 < maaku> most things that need optimization are already optimized, in the std library or something downloadable
06:58 < maaku> and you're not going to shoot yourself in the foot with some memory error
07:11 < kanzure> some might even say there's a 10x difference </marketing>
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07:38 < kanzure> http://www.nasa.gov/press/2014/october/satellite-data-shows-us-methane-hot-spot-bigger-than-expected/#.VM-ZwOZpgrQ
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09:11 < FourFire> does anyone think I should take the plunge into nootropics, namely Modafinil, or would I do better investing my limited funds into other areas?
09:12 < kanzure> does norway pay for prescription drugs?
09:12 < FourFire> I'm not sure, have avoided all medication, I think so?
09:14 < archels> take the plunge is possibly a bit of an overdramatisation
09:14 < archels> just try it and see how you like it personally
09:15 < kanzure> just get the state to pay for adderall
09:15 < justanotheruser> kanzure: thoughts on Desoxyn?
09:17 < kanzure> 404 thoughts not found
09:18 < FourFire> kanzure, I am uncertain of the detriments of adderall, but I'm willing to try Modafinil
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09:26 < nmz787_i> justanotheruser: I believe it would be my optimal amphet... but my Doc wouldn't give it to me because of meth
09:26 < justanotheruser> nmz787_i: Never tried it, but I heard it has some pretty bad side effects
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09:57 < nmz787_i> justanotheruser: AFAIK it has the least side-effects, and in my case my interest was because it has the lowest plasma half-life (amphets take a very very long time to breakdown in my system, and negatively affect my sleep)
09:58 < justanotheruser> nmz787_i: really? https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/meth_effects.shtml
10:03 < nmz787_i> I won't open that on my work laptop, but I guess it just depends on what you designate a side-effect
10:04 < nmz787_i> from what I recall, psychosis and all the bugs crawling under your skin happens just the same with dex as it does with methyldex
10:04 < chris_99> you get the bug thing from alcohol withdrawal apparently
10:05 < nmz787_i> and staying awake for too many hours sober
10:05 < chris_99> heh
10:06 < justanotheruser> nmz787_i: and to be fair, meth does have a bad rep just because it's more commonly sold on the street and probably comes with other funky stuff
10:07 < chris_99> not sure if this is of use to you nmz787 i've found recently server PSUs such as https://sites.google.com/site/tjinguytech/my-projects/HP47A can give 47A
10:07 < chris_99> @ 12VDC
10:08 < nmz787_i> kanzure: how do I tell if the current git master is the original, or if someone pulled the master name into some other branch? (maybe this is a bad question, but I see people mentioning something like it in regards to rebasing) (basically I made some commits which seemed to be on master, then someone else had a merge conflict with a different file, but today my changes don't seem to be in master, though the GIT GUI shows it in
10:08 < nmz787_i> 'visualise all branch history' and that file that my changes are lost from doesn't show in any subsequent commit messages... so I can't tell where it got lost, or how, or who was at fault and how they did it)
10:08 < nmz787_i> wow that's pretty nice amperage
10:08 < nmz787_i> I bought a PS from amazon for relatively cheap a year or two ago to provide 5 or 12V at 5A I think
10:08 < nmz787_i> I think it was 12V 5A
10:09 < nmz787_i> as I was trying to make an incubator with a car hair dryer
10:09 < nmz787_i> (seemed like motor interference was causing sensor issues that I couldn't quite figure out how to snub)
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10:33 < kanzure> nmz787: git reflog will show you things
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10:40 < kanzure> nmz787: git reflog will show you things
10:44 < justanotheruser> git reflog didn't show me enough after I totally f***ed myself
10:45 < chris_99> nmz787_i, those PSUs are pretty cheap btw, around £17
10:46 < sheena> thanks nmz787_i or nmz787. did you want to discuss it or jut pointing it out?
10:47 < nmz787_i>   kanzure git reflog seems to only show stuff about my local repo... but I believe someone else tossed my changes somehow
10:48 < nmz787_i> sheena: you mean the comments? I was just pointing it out. (also of note, that article was open-source, so I don't think you needed paperbot)
10:49 < sheena> yeah, i found the open source thing later. woo for os papers :)
10:49 < sheena> i need to finish reading the study, but the comment sounds like they're referring only to the preliminary study
10:57 < kanzure> i am having trouble understanding yur git problem
10:58 < kanzure> *your git problem
10:58 < kanzure> it is possible that they did not include your changes when they merged into master
10:58 < kanzure> this was perhaps intentional on their part
10:59 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6102/1628.abstract
10:59 < kanzure> .title
10:59 < yoleaux> Next-Generation Digital Information Storage in DNA
10:59 < paperbot> http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1226355
11:00 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6102/1628.full.pdf
11:00 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/2bcaac171dd7bd0153ca8065d03fd03c.pdf
11:02 < nmz787_i> kanzure: no it was totally unintentional... they had some merge conflict with another unrelated file, and they think they somehow tossed my file in the process (but the weird thing is that I'd committed my file to master, so if anything, I'd think they would be merging new changes to master... so if my file was reverted wouldn't I see that in the logs?)
11:06 < kanzure> .to yashgaroth "A highly convenient procedure for oligodeoxynucleotide purification" http://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOOCJ/TOOCJ-8-15.pdf
11:06 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to yashgaroth.
11:09 < nmz787_i> "The above refinements including using less acrylamide polymerization solution, using a centrifugal filter unit, and using fresher phosphoramidite solutions are critical for the catching by polymerization purification technology to be practically useful."
11:09 < nmz787_i> https://gfcouita18.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/subway-eat-fresh-us.jpg
11:09 < kanzure> that's unfortunate
11:10 < nmz787_i> 'subway fresh oligo' shows strange image search results
11:10 < kanzure> what is the freshness anyway
11:10 < kanzure> why not just store it better?
11:10 < nmz787_i> huh, western PA folks doing cool stuff http://wpamushroomclub.org/the-results-are-in-the-first-four-dna-barcoding-samples/
11:10 < nmz787_i> .title http://dnasubway.iplantcollaborative.org/
11:10 < yoleaux> Fast Track to Gene Annotation and Genome Analysis - DNA Subway
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11:23 < kanzure> http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color-is-your-function/
11:30 < sheena> However most dogs in Group A yelped at a much lower rate than reported in the above studies, equivalent to roughly half a yelp per fifteen minute training session, during which time dogs could have received several e-stimuli per session. In Group A, the 
11:30 < sheena> half a yelp
11:32 < kanzure> maybe they were trained to produce half yelps
11:33 < nmz787_i> I don't get that colored function rant
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11:33 < kanzure> it's just async/sync
11:33 < nmz787_i> I guess is it complaining about callbacks being confusing to use?
11:33 < kanzure> no
11:33 < kanzure> mixing async/sync is painful
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11:34 < eudoxia> it's complaining that async is like the GPL
11:34 < eudoxia> it infects your code
11:35 < kanzure> haha
11:35 < kanzure> you're drunk on analogies, go home eudoxia
11:36 < eudoxia> i'm always drunk on analogies, i'm the master of metaphor
11:36 < gwillen> the red/blue problem is one of the reasons I like the concept of first-class continuations
11:36 < gwillen> even though I understand they fuck up the language implementation something awful
11:36 < gwillen> because once you have them, red-blue interfacing is easy
11:36 < kanzure> eudoxia: socrates philosophies and hypotheses can't define how you be dropping these mockeries
11:36 < gwillen> if you're in a blue function and you need to call a red function, you call/cc it
11:36 < gwillen> done
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11:38 < kanzure> eudoxia: ( context: the greatest song of all time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqzeizVR7F8 )
11:39 < gwillen> although as he explains, 'await' gives you enough of call/cc to solve the problem
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11:48 < Katiekat> hi
11:48 < kanzure> hello
11:49 < Katiekat> dont even know what biohacking is lol, just searched trans tbh
11:50 < kanzure> you're in the right place for transfats
11:51 < Katiekat> not sure if sarcasm or not, completely clueless
11:51 < Katiekat> i was searching transgender
11:51 < cluckj> I need philly biohackers!!!!!!!
11:51 < yoleaux> 28 Jan 2015 15:28Z <kanzure> cluckj: :/ john brockman published some weird anti-falsifiability stuff http://edge.org/response-detail/25322
11:52 < cluckj> oh shit homework
11:52 < kanzure> nah you just have to unfriend john now
11:53 < cluckj> hah
11:53 < cluckj> physicists waxing poetic about the philosophy of science
11:53 < kanzure> "third culture" always seemed a little lame to me
11:54 < cluckj> I'll bookmark it and give it a read later, I need to finish unpacking this week
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11:54 < kanzure> "one of the great intellectual enzymes of our time" - stewart brand
11:54 < kanzure> pfft
11:55 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brockman_(literary_agent)
11:55 < kanzure> man... i used to like edge.org.
11:56 < kanzure> "Throughout history, only a small number of people have done the serious thinking for everybody. Greece was actually entirely a farcical fabrication of Socrates."
11:56 < cluckj> :\
11:56 < cluckj> ew
11:57 < kanzure> .g "Doing Science: The Reality Club"
11:57 < yoleaux> http://www.amazon.com/Doing-Science-The-Reality-Club/dp/0137950977
11:57 < cluckj> that quote sounds incredibly elitist
12:01 < kanzure> yeah....
12:01 < kanzure> agreed
12:02 < cluckj> there's a particular breed of science-y writers that cater to the "woe is me, the intellectually oppressed genius scientist" community
12:02 < kanzure> somehow he is able to attract the interesting scientists in his surveys though
12:03 < kanzure> like, even davidad (dalrymple)
12:03 < cluckj> those writers aren't necessarily awful or uninteresting
12:03 < cluckj> I find them extremely unpalatable to read/watch/listen to
12:06 < kanzure> heh
12:12 < kanzure> https://soundcloud.com/dj-mindflash
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12:43 < nmz787_i> all sorts of connectors http://www.l-com.com/
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12:50 < paperlooker> paperbot: https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0033-1340624
12:50 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/a2ab2faa404d38f4146d51e5baaa36b5.txt
12:54 < paperlooker> paperbot: https://www.thieme-connect.de/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0033-1340624
12:55 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/d2e7676977546497b05439bbbe23b25f.txt
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12:56 < paperlooker> paperbot: https://www.thieme-connect.de/products/ejournals/pdf/10.1055Fs-0033-1340624.pdf
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12:57 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/1463ab1c14e1d0c46ad6983aa6fdea8c.txt
12:57 < paperlooker> this fucking paper :?
12:57 < paperlooker> :/
12:58 < kanzure> go away
12:58 < kanzure> you clearly don't know how to read html files
12:59 < kanzure> haha why do they have ads?
12:59 < kanzure>       <script type="text/javascript" src="https://adfarm1.adition.com/js?wp_id=543154&amp;prf[DOI]=10.1055-s-00000083&amp;prf[UserLogin]=false&amp;prf[IPLogin]=true"></script>
12:59 < paperlooker> but... but... I do. :(
12:59 < paperlooker> there are no pdf links that don't trigger redirects
12:59 < kanzure> right... because access denied
13:00 < paperlooker> right, I was hoping paperbot had multiple endpoints it could try
13:00 < kanzure> they all broke
13:00 < paperlooker> T_T
13:00 < kanzure> enjoy the snowpocalypse!
13:01 < paperlooker> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/chin.201425264/abstract
13:01 < paperlooker> that was last week
13:01 < paperlooker> this is just a light dusting
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13:03 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/fcb02c4ed25d0ee6b1bcb9f50758579d.txt
13:03 < paperlooker> goddam, access denied again :(
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13:11 < nmz787_i> I really should make that proxy getter a bot in here
13:12 < kanzure> i think people over-estimate the amount of magic in paperbot
13:12 < kanzure> paperbot is full of magic but not all the magics
13:13 < nmz787_i> i can't even try those proxies from here because I don't know the passwords
13:13 < nmz787_i> which I guess yay for random passwords
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13:13 < nmz787_i> but boo for ease of use
13:15 < kanzure> https://soundcloud.com/lesh/dreamtime007
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13:48 < kanzure> hooray https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2015/02/social-contact-not-as-correlated-to-life-expectancy-as-thought.php
13:51 < phm4242> social contact makes you smarter and more productive though.
13:52 < kanzure> according to that theory, i should be a supergenius, but i am'n't
13:52 < kanzure> and also, according to dunbar my head should be the size of jupiter
13:52 < kanzure> but it's merely the size of your admittedly colossal mom
13:52 < phm4242> new low.
13:52 < kanzure> go away :(
13:52 < phm4242> don't be sad.
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13:58 <@kanzure> intimidation works
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14:09 < phm42> no.
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14:10 <@kanzure> are you sure?
14:10 < phm42> yes.
14:11 < nmz787_i> kanzure: unless that contact is required IRL
14:11 < nmz787_i> would you still be a supergenius?
14:11 < phm42> Kanz is a good paperbot. But creative intelligence? Not so much.
14:11 <@kanzure> huh? the claim is that i am not a supergenius
14:12 <@kanzure> i don't even believe in intelligence why would i believe i am intelligent?
14:12 <@kanzure> you're the worst troll ever
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14:54 < FourFire> kanzure, what do you mean about your dunbarian number?
14:54 < FourFire> is it 5 digit?
14:57 <@kanzure> according to dunbar, the dunbar number does not vary between individuals
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16:22 < nsh> --
16:22 < nsh> Alternatively, why aren't we talking about venusforming humans? All space operas seem to start with the earth-standard human in a suit. Compared to geoengineering a whole earth-standard atmosphere, bioengineering an intelligent organism that can thrive in nonearth environments seems fairly sane.
16:22 < nsh> There's a social taboo against human genetic experimentation (hell, some people seem to struggle with vegetables) but that will eventually pass.
16:22 < nsh> -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8985151
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17:42 < kanzure> nsh: people don't struggle with vegetables, they struggle with gene patents and monsanto
18:23 < maaku> nsh: because venesian cloud cities are so much cooler?
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18:45 < nmz787> nsh: yeah I have been looking forward to the day I can take off to some country that doesn't care with enough $ (and ideas) to start a lab
18:46 < nmz787> nsh: isn't bioengineering intelligent beings basically transhumanism at this point since we don't really have a better/more intelligent bio-thing to work from (ok maybe dolphins and whales)
18:47 < nmz787> nsh: otherwise kanzure has a list of mod/enhancement ideas somewhere... you could add to it if you've got some
18:47 < kanzure> many transhumanists scoff at biology because it's hard work
18:48 < nmz787> the spider-silk skin ('bulletproof') seemed like a good idea that could use more work/ideas
18:48 < nmz787> I scoff at those people
18:48 < nmz787> psh
18:48 < kanzure> and you should
18:48 < nmz787> guffaw
18:48 < kanzure> you should scoff more scoffishly
18:48  * nmz787 my dear!
18:48  * nmz787 oh my word!
18:49 < nmz787> yahoo-answers: "Whats the meaning of Oh my Word?"    answer 1: "Its just an exclamatory expression in English. Just as you have "Are baapre" in Hindi.... :-)"
18:50 < nmz787> glad I get the intention, but I was hoping for some etymology
18:51 < kanzure> be careful or else you might actually touch some hardware
18:54 < maaku> wow nerd wankery : http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/lni/computation_complexity_of_agi_design/
18:54 < jrayhawk> http://vimeo.com/22616099#t=1284s rad bit of coevolution
18:59 < kanzure> .title
18:59 < yoleaux> Human Planet. Grasslands on Vimeo
18:59 < kanzure> maaku: i recommend this paper instead http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/How%20hard%20is%20artificial%20intelligence%3f%20Evolutionary%20arguments%20and%20selection%20effects%20-%20Shulman%20-%20Bostrom.pdf
19:00 < kanzure> once again lesswrong demonstrates a stunning inability to remember their own arguments
19:01 < kanzure> (you should post that link)
19:02 < kanzure> ((you should also read that link))
19:05 < maaku> kanzure: it is bizarre. "general intelligence is NP-hard. therefore, impossible" : "how do you explain humans?" : "anthropic principle?" : "ok, how about the fact that the whole field of AI is practical solutions to NP-hard problems?" : "...derp"
19:06 < kanzure> er, your claim is that any practical solution to an NP-hard problem is ai?
19:07 < maaku> no, just that is what narrow AI is -- a toolbox for solving NP-hard problems
19:07 < maaku> therefore, an existance proof that just because you've proved somethiong NP-hard, doesn't mean it isn't solveable in practice
19:09 < kanzure> oh wait,
19:09 < kanzure> first, if i was going to complain about that sequence of reasoning,
19:09 < thundara> NP-hard has a very specific definition... most AI wouldn't guarantee optimality, and if they figured out that out for an NP-hard problem then they'd have solved P = NP
19:09 < kanzure> i would start with "general intelligence is impossible"
19:09 < kanzure> even if general intelligence is impossible, we already have an existence proof of human brains doing things, so i don't care if general intelligence is impossible
19:10 < nmz787> jrayhawk: cool
19:10 < nmz787> jrayhawk: now I wonder, how did they get that tradition started?
19:10 < maaku> kanzure: if you have some mathmatical proof that general intelligence is impossible, i question your definition of "general intelligence"
19:11 < nmz787> like, hey bird, start doing shit for me and I'll feed you
19:11 < kanzure> maaku: ah but i would say there's an extremely high probability that we suck at describing the interesting characteristics of the human brain in action. we probably just suck at figuring out what it is we want.
19:11  * nmz787 wonders what he could convince the reliant outside-cat to do for the food I give it
19:12 < kanzure> nmz787: ask sheena
19:14 < jrayhawk> At the very least, humans would give birds motivation to congregate due to waste (drips, small pieces of honeycomb, smoke-neutralized bees, larvae). Not sure how the opposite would've started.
19:14 < maaku> kanzure: btw, i've seen bostrom's numbers for the difficulty of evolving human intelligence, but it's nice to have the original source. thanks
19:14 < jrayhawk> Altered bioactivity around hives, I guess? Fewer animals, more bugs to eat?
19:15 < jrayhawk> There are a lot of papers on the subject, they probably have better ideas.
19:15 < kanzure> bees are neutralized by smoke? i thought they just fly off?
19:16 < nmz787> it 'calms them'
19:16 < nmz787> probably basically chokes them out
19:16 < kanzure> oh right, depends on what neutralized means
19:16 < jrayhawk> Blocks pheromone receptors.
19:17 < nmz787> like choking on nitrogen, you don't feel it till you start passing out
19:17 < jrayhawk> The bees don't die, they just become behaviorally dormant.
19:17 < nmz787> ah so they can't smell the alert the others that realize you're robbing them
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19:19 < kanzure> maaku: if i was to work on an evolutionary-attempt at human-like cognitive abilities, i would probably focus on observational learning
19:24 < JayDugger1> Having kept bees with my Dad (as a hobby), "neutralized" is a relative term.
19:40 < yashgaroth> kanzure: wrt the paper you linked me, the polymerization of the deletion mutants is the interesting bit; claiming that a centrifuge is "high-throughput" compared to HPLC is stretching it
19:40 < yoleaux> 2 Feb 2015 19:06Z <kanzure> yashgaroth: "A highly convenient procedure for oligodeoxynucleotide purification" http://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOOCJ/TOOCJ-8-15.pdf
19:41 < kanzure> "I'm confused. I thought the bubonic plague was treatable with antibiotics. Is it just a matter of not being able to get the antibiotics to them quick enough?"
19:41 < kanzure> "If they need antibiotics so bad, why don't we just send them some American beef?"
19:43 < kanzure> yashgaroth: what did you think about my immortality thing? selective breeding and directed evolution of small critters to survive cryopreservation and cryoresuscitation, then applying similar changes to human genomes during fertilization or after, then doing similar selective breeding of humans?
19:44 < yashgaroth> the problem is getting something with a complex enough brain to be a useful mimic, with a short enough generation time to make directed evolution feasible
19:44 < yashgaroth> also humans are not amenable to selective breeding I've found
19:45 < kanzure> niet niet niet, we would just pander to the ultra-wealthy
19:45 < kanzure> "here, marry this person into your family and your kiddos will live forever"
19:46 < yashgaroth> ah then more feasible, but more like "fund our research into thawing rabbits and your kids will be frozen until magic future people solve our ills"
19:47 < kanzure> shrug, i'm okay with cryopreservation only working on the healthy
19:47 < yashgaroth> aging being an ill, but yes
19:47 < kanzure> oh right
19:47 < kanzure> that thing
19:47 < kanzure> hmm.
19:48 < yashgaroth> I am honestly surprised there isn't an institute just thawing rabbitcicles with various chemicals shot into them
19:48 < kanzure> right... nobody is serious about this shit.
19:48 < kanzure> it's pathetic.
19:48 < kanzure> also, we could have things like a supply of guide dogs ready to go
19:49 < yashgaroth> I forget what the most complex freezable organism is...insects maybe?
19:49 < kanzure> goldfish?
19:50 < yashgaroth> goldfish are undead they don't count
19:50  * kanzure makes a note of this
19:51 < kanzure> apparently dog kidney sort of works
19:51 < yashgaroth> the brain's the real issue, pansy-ass neurons
19:51 < kanzure> tested 37 kidneys, froze, thawed, implanted into dogs, removed other doggy kidney, a few dogs survived and died of old age later
19:54 < kanzure> good times
19:54 < yashgaroth> with cryoprotectants or what?
19:56 < kanzure> think so
19:56 < kanzure> didn't read thoroughly
19:59 < yashgaroth> actually does alcor normally include cryoprotectants? do you get to choose the molarity of DMSO they shoot into your corpse
20:03 < kanzure> andytoshi just signed up
20:03 < kanzure> showed me some of the insurance docs today
20:03 < kanzure> and the answer is no
20:03 < kanzure> just the defaults
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20:04 < yashgaroth> aww
20:07 < kanzure> yeah life sucks
20:08 < kanzure> win 3
20:08 < kanzure> iefewqjooioioo
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