--- Log opened Thu Feb 05 00:00:45 2015
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05:40 < heath> heath test
05:40 < heath> irssinotifier
05:40 < heath> useful
05:40 < heath> https://irssinotifier.appspot.com/
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07:25 < kanzure> where is everyone
07:25 < kanzure> this is unacceptable
07:25 < eudoxia> beep
07:26 < kanzure> 22:13 <jonano> I losted my life insurance because of my disease
07:26 < kanzure> 22:14 <jonano> I cant be a member of CI or Alcor because of the lack of my money
07:26 < kanzure> 22:14 <jonano> I return to school to get a better job
07:26 < kanzure> (jonano showed up in #bitcoin and i spotted him yesterday)
07:26 < kanzure> ((he didn't fucking remember me. argh.))
07:37 < ParahSailin> what
07:41 < kanzure> jonano was a troll that used to show up in here
07:41 < kanzure> he has been known throughout the internet since the beginning of time as "the ebola virus of cryonics"
07:42 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20080303013838/http://www.cryonics.org/immortalist/november05/ebola.htm
07:47 < eudoxia> i'd never heard of him
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07:50 < kanzure> eudoxia: you haven't read /all/ the logs?
07:50 < eudoxia> kanzure: i know, i know, i'm in a state of sin
07:58 < archels_> haha, still doing his thing eh
08:05 < cluckj> trolls be trollin'
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09:16 < kanzure> v8 (as the js engine) firefox https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/02/introducing-node-firefox/
09:33 < andytoshi> i forgot who asked about whether alcor will take your life insurance benefit in the case that you get splatted and they can't use it...but the answer (from reading the life insurance assignee policy) is definitely yes
09:34 < andytoshi> if this is a concern you can likely arrange otherwise through additional contracts "optional modes of settlement" which once agreed upon alcor cannot change without your consent (changing optional modes of settlement is explicitly excluded from the assignee's rights)
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11:04 < delinquentme_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPIN-COATER-/301477690218?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4631787b6a
11:04 < delinquentme_> crazy cheap spin coater
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11:06 < kanzure> let me know if i sould grab this
11:07 < delinquentme_> kanzure, its being sold as is, IDK what shape it is in ... but judging by the look of it, thats a steal
11:10 < kanzure> if i buy this i will probably have to ship it to nmz787
11:10 < kanzure> what's all the other stuff in their pics?
11:11 < cluckj> goats
11:12 < kanzure> oh wait
11:12 < kanzure> here is another pic http://cdn.globalauctionplatform.com/e6a875ee-6f05-4923-be51-a3aa0120e921/7d829bf8-0a98-484f-e36f-d54019de8a16/original.jpg
11:12 < kanzure> http://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/bscmr/catalogue-id-bscmr10036/lot-6add5394-465d-40b9-aa53-a3b9017b401e
11:13 < nmz787_i> hmm?
11:14 < kanzure> spin coater
11:14 < kanzure> it's huge
11:16 < nmz787_i> that is indeed huge
11:16 < nmz787_i> it would fit in my garage though
11:16 < kanzure> i think this is the manufacturer http://www.origin.co.jp/rd/pdf/rd06_2014.pdf
11:16 < kanzure> well. i think a smaller spin coater would work just fine.
11:16 < kanzure> i don't really see the point of this?
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11:17 < nmz787_i> that big thing is a spin coater or injector molder?
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11:17  * nmz787_i looks at pdf
11:17 < kanzure> claims to be a spin coater
11:17 < delinquentme_> kanzure, we should go in on a warehouse
11:18 < delinquentme_> just do a sale / resale of high end equipment
11:18 < kanzure> not in sf
11:18 < delinquentme_> ^
11:18 < delinquentme_> http://www.pi-usa.us/products/images/Hexapod-Parallel_Kinematic_Positioners_top-image.jpg
11:19 < delinquentme_> hexapawdz
11:19 < kanzure> those are called stewart nerd snipers
11:21 < nmz787_i> thta pdf seems like it's mostly talking about electrostatic printers and cd/dvd stampers or something
11:21 < nmz787_i> there does seem to be a small section that shows a spin coater
11:21 < nmz787_i> but it is indeed small
11:21 < nmz787_i> like 1/100th the volume of the entire thing
11:22 < kanzure> what else is this tho
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11:24 < delinquentme_> lel. DVD burner ... sell as spin coater
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11:27 < nmz787_i> delinquentme_: i believe I can make a proper spincoater for around/less than $100
11:28 < nmz787_i> place around here with the rotary vacuum bearings for like $5/10 bux
11:28 < delinquentme_> nmz787_i, yeah there are some on ebay which used to be $90 ... but now are $500
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11:40 < ParahSailin> you can get a precise motor/controller that will do programmed ramp up downs for <100?
11:40 < ParahSailin> or something that will suck and spin
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11:41 < kanzure> i don't see any specs for this 2UC model.. i wonder what performance it gets you.
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12:09 < kanzure> http://www.wearableworld.co/
12:10 < kanzure> motorcycle helmet http://www.skully.com/
12:11 < kanzure> skateboards? http://boostedboards.com/
12:11 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9004705
12:11 < yoleaux> YC for Hardware | Hacker News
12:11 < kanzure> http://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-for-hardware
12:12 < kanzure> "We’ll be posting some new hardware RFSs as well--we’re happy to see all sorts of hardware companies, but we especially like the ones that are fundamentally new ideas that Kickstarter might not support (and we don’t shy away from expensive hardware--we’ve funded companies building things like nuclear reactors and rockets, which will require hundreds of millions of dollars in funding to succeed)."
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12:18 < nmz787_i> ParahSailin: well you'd have to build one, but I think that just means back-emf sense or an encoder on BLDC
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13:18 < archels> asfhqwiogeh
13:18 < kanzure> agreed
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13:37 < maaku> :( -- http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-2.html
13:38 < maaku> after a fair and balanced part 1, it's basically "let me summarize what I read on lesswrong!"
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13:44  * archels marks 'AI takeover' in his calendar for 2025
13:45 < kanzure> my calendar only goes backwards
13:50 < maaku> the year 10 B-AI
13:50 < kanzure> did we get a mouse connectome?
13:50 < kanzure> did that happen yet?
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13:55 < kanzure> .title http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31145520
13:55 < yoleaux> BBC News - Planck telescope puts new datestamp on first stars
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14:13 < archels> Texas Instruments
14:13 < archels> <Encrypted Library>
14:13 < archels> grr what is this?
14:14 < archels> (spice)
14:17 < kanzure> texas instruments is the spice maintainer?
14:18 < archels> encrypted spice doesn't flow so well
14:20 < nmz787_i> 'spice spice baby, (chorus cries 'simulaaate')'
14:26 < archels> I bet they're just going to redirect me to their own spice implementation, "TINA-TI"
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14:38 < kanzure> debian science team is looking for new members
14:39 < kanzure> enthought should do it
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15:18 < fenn> "Wearable World, Inc. Moves into San Francisco’s Iconic Palace of Fine Arts"  what a shame
15:19 < fenn> how can they afford to buy the palace of fine arts but not a silly .com address
15:21 < kanzure> fenn is there likely a way to get large amounts of motion and force out of a planar mems-style device? like to lift and push stuff around.
15:21 < fenn> motion*force = energy so probably not, unless you have a stupidly efficient prime mover
15:22 < kanzure> actually by mems i mean the planar aspect i suppose. large flat sheets on the scale of multiple meters might be okay.
15:22 < kanzure> *planar aspect and spatial-light-modulation-manufacturability
15:22 < fenn> ok now you lost me
15:22 < kanzure> just a continuation of my vlsi thinkings from the other day
15:23 < fenn> you want to move things around on a micro scale mosh pit?
15:23 < fenn> tiny hands
15:23 < kanzure> eh my question is more general than that
15:23 < kanzure> so there's vlsi manufacturing of tiny motion stuff, thanks to mems and whatever
15:24 < kanzure> tiny motion isn't going to get you very far for maing certain types of things
15:24 < kanzure> the advantage of spatial light modulation is how ridiculously simple it is to use in a manufacturing process
15:25 < kanzure> so it would be useful if spatial light modulation can produce things that can make "large" scale motion
15:26 < fenn> i think you'd need to route tension elements on a macro scale, like a chinese finger trap but made out of spiderweb
15:26 < kanzure> maybe giant 2d springs
15:27 < kanzure> heh
15:27 < fenn> another approach would be nested structures, linear actuator stages like [[[]]]
15:28 < kanzure> how do you spatial-optically make a linear actuator?
15:28 < fenn> except it would be more like |{[<->]}|
15:29 < fenn> comb actuators are just zigzags of metal, basically
15:29 < kanzure> .wik comb drive
15:29 < yoleaux> "Comb-drives are capacitive actuators, often used as linear actuators that utilize electrostatic forces that act between two electrically conductive combs. Comb drive actuators typically operate at the micro- or nanometer scale and are generally manufactured by bulk micromachining or surface micromachining a silicon wafer substrate." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_drive
15:29 < fenn> you still need high aspect ratio etching though
15:29 < kanzure> http://matthieu.lagouge.free.fr/mems/mems_pict/actuation/combdrive.gif
15:29 < kanzure> hmm.
15:30 < kanzure> does this work at mesoscale
15:30 < fenn> no
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15:30 < fenn> not without stupidly high voltages at least
15:31 < kanzure> i might accept some sort of solution involving a gas/whatever engine that snaps or heats together from separate layers
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15:32 < fenn> oh your question was wrong
15:32 < fenn> you want a DLP 3d printer
15:33 < kanzure> i'm not sure any dlp 3d printer has produced a mesoscale motion actuator thing
15:33 < fenn> i would be surprised if they haven't
15:33 < kanzure> dlp counts as spatial light modulation right?
15:33 < fenn> yes
15:34 < maaku> fenn lives
15:34 < kanzure> laser sintering can probably sinter you a conventional gas or steam engine, but the DLP 3d printers that i have seen are only quick-to-melt plastics
15:34 < maaku> fenn i need to meet you at some point, now that you're in the bay area
15:35 < fenn> ok
15:35 < kanzure> andytoshi is in the area this week i think
15:35 < kanzure> so go meet him too
15:35 < fenn> i'm tired
15:35 < kanzure> in fact, bring the entire blockstream crew to fenn
15:35 < kanzure> oh, maybe ot then
15:35 < kanzure> *not
15:36 < fenn> i may be in sf tomorrow, depending on some craigslist thing
15:36 < kanzure> i am bad about saying sf when i don't mean sf
15:36 < fenn> yeah you only go to boring places like san jose
15:37 < kanzure> that place sucked dude
15:38 < kanzure> i see a few 3d printed engines that work when assembled with other parts
15:38 < kanzure> i wonder if i should allow for assembly steps
15:38 < kanzure> (i am thinking no)
15:38 < fenn> this is the thing i'm buying XD http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/clt/4867936747.html
15:38 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rX4xv5-NvE
15:38 < yoleaux> Jet Engine made on a 3D Printer - YouTube
15:38 < kanzure> .title http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/clt/4867936747.html
15:39 < yoleaux> Life-size paper replica of AK-47 Kalashnikov
15:39 < maaku> yes, andytoshi is out here saturday - friday I think
15:39 < kanzure> i wonder how easy that's to damage
15:39 < fenn> unfortunately there are no cad files for it
15:39 < maaku> hey i live in san jose!
15:39 < fenn> my condolences
15:40 < kanzure> i spent many weeks in san jose while i was contracting for rivermeadow
15:40 < maaku> haha well i feel that way about oakland/berkeley
15:40 < kanzure> well, not the entire time. i nfact less than 10% of my time. but still sucked.
15:40 < kanzure> next to that casino off of el camino
15:41 < maaku> ugh that is like the boringest part of san jose
15:41 < fenn> is there any part that is not boring?
15:41 < fenn> there was a museum that was pretty cool i guess
15:41 < fenn> the tech museum
15:41 < kanzure> wait why didn't i say airport
15:41 < kanzure> airport is a more obvious landmark
15:42 < maaku> fenn: willow glen is not a bad place to live (it's where I am), and there's good vietnamese food at least
15:42 < kanzure> also el camino does not seem to exist here
15:42 < fenn> camino real
15:43 < maaku> san jose is not a bad place to live. just not much to do for a tourist/visitor
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15:44 < kanzure> maaku: where are the other blockstream peoples? also san jose?
15:45 < maaku> i'm the only one in san jose. we have two in mountain view, three in SF proper, two in oakland, then some in montreal, malta, spain, and switzerland
15:45 < maaku> they're all out here for the week though
15:45 < maaku> well, plus andytoshi in austin, which you know
15:48 < kanzure> why do i not see a flat engine when i search for flat engine
15:48 < kanzure> these are definitely not flat
15:49 < eudoxia> still looking for tiny stirling actuators
15:49 < kanzure> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/ULPower_UL260i.jpg
15:49 < kanzure> http://8w.forix.com/engines/1235.jpg
15:50 < kanzure> what's the right word for "one-pot" or "single print"?
15:50 < kanzure> "one pass"?
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15:52 < kanzure> .wik monobloc engine
15:52 < yoleaux> "A monobloc or en bloc engine is an internal-combustion piston engine where some of the major components (such as cylinder head, cylinder block, or crankcase) are formed, usually by casting, as a single integral unit, rather than being assembled later." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monobloc_engine
15:54 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk: perfect for... all the [broth](?) you drink https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/northdrinkware/north-drinkware-mt-hood-the-oregon-pint-glass
15:55 < nmz787_i> 'USGS 3D data of Mt. Hood in the base of the glass'
15:56 < kanzure> a uniflow steam engine looks close... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Uniflow_steam_engine.gif
15:57 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniflow_steam_engine
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15:59 < jrayhawk> jrayhawk@richardiv:~$ curl -s https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/northdrinkware/north-drinkware-mt-hood-the-oregon-pint-glass | grep -i boro
15:59 < jrayhawk> jrayhawk@richardiv:~$
15:59 < jrayhawk> no thanks
15:59 < kanzure> oh weird, flat engine is the name of something else
15:59 < kanzure> .wik flat engine
15:59 < yoleaux> "A flat engine is an internal combustion engine with horizontally-opposed pistons. Typically, the layout has cylinders arranged in two banks on either side of a single crankshaft and is otherwise known as the boxer, or horizontally-opposed engine. The concept was patented in 1896 by engineer Karl Benz, who called it the "contra engine."" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine
15:59 < kanzure> so that is why i was not getting actually flat engines
16:00 < kanzure> jrayhawk you blow up lots of engines right? what should i be looking for :/
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16:02 < nmz787_i> https://github.com/bauerca/gridfloat
16:02 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk: no thank you because it isn't "boro" (big, in bengali)?
16:03 < delinquentme_> fenn, you around?
16:03 < delinquentme_> wait. who else is a decent EE around here?
16:03 < kanzure> jcline
16:03 < jrayhawk> I'm not interested in putting boiling hot foods in glassware that is not borosilicate.
16:04 < nmz787_i> oh, well they /are/ marketing it for beer
16:04 < nmz787_i> so you'd need to limit it to cold broth I guess
16:04 < jrayhawk> I have a great respect for my epithelium and I wish to provide it all the resources it needs to continue doing its job.
16:05 < jrayhawk> I have less respect for other people's epitheliums, though, so I guess those glasses will make for fine gifts.
16:05 < nmz787_i> your epithelium is sensitive to the food vessel?
16:05 < nmz787_i> or you don't drink cold things?
16:06 < jrayhawk> Explosive shards of got glass are generally not conducive to proper epithelial functioning, but YMMV
16:06 < jrayhawk> s/got/hot/
16:07 < nmz787_i> " It isn't made of Pyrex, so it may break if it undergoes rapid temperature changes. So... don't pour boiling hot water into a cold glass."
16:10 < jrayhawk> kanzure: in terms of MEMS engines, I really doubt you're going to do better than that rotary design.
16:11 < kanzure> i have expanded to non-mems. can be large-scale.
16:11 < kanzure> "large"
16:11 < jrayhawk> oh, okay
16:12 < kanzure> just has to be single-pass manufacturable. ideally with spatial light modulation.
16:12 < jrayhawk> small-block chevy's are cheap
16:12 < jrayhawk> ah, hm.
16:12 < kanzure> i'm actually a little surprised that nobody has optimized for single-pass engines... seems like this would be stupidly cheap to produce..
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16:17 < jrayhawk> If planarity of the whole system, including output, is desirable, I guess an inline or flat engine is pretty good; in general inline engines have slightly more problems with balancing, but I doubt it matters much at that scale.
16:17 < jrayhawk> I guess you should still talk to that rotary engine guy and pick his brain.
16:17 < jrayhawk> He probably knows of other similar projects.
16:17 < kanzure> ah yes i should send harassing emails to that person. good plan.
16:18 < jrayhawk> Most fully or partially opposed engines use a central cam and pushrods; for a planar design you'd probably want to switch over to geared remote cams.
16:23 < jrayhawk> Diesel is also a simpler design than gas.
16:23 < jrayhawk> In that ignition is purely compression based and does not require spark.
16:27 < kanzure> maybe someone tried this and the efficiency was too stupidly low to compete with more dimensionally inclined engines
16:27 < kanzure> but i would still expect this to be an obscure novelty or something
16:30 < jrayhawk> If you start doing research on power using volumetric efficiency as a metric, keep in mind that the displacement figures for rotary engines are about half of what an equivalent four-stroke would be.
16:31 < jrayhawk> At least, for wankel-vs-otto/diesel
16:31 < jrayhawk> i guess there are more exotic rotary designs
16:33 < fenn> someone tried this and then they dumped a lot of academic research on it and that's the last i heard. it was supposed to replace batteries in cell phones with methanol-burning micro turbines
16:34 < kanzure> jrayhawk found a good microengine diesel thingy.
16:34 < fenn> micro "diesel" engines like on RC airplanes don't actually burn diesel fuel, they burn ether
16:35 < kanzure> http://sem-proceedings.com/03s/sem.org-2003-SEM-Ann-Conf-s52p01-Invited-MEMS-Rotary-Engine-Power-System-Project-Overview-Recent.pdf
16:35 < fenn> a brayton cycle engine makes more sense for a planar engine i think
16:36 < fenn> compressor, combustor, turbine. how simple can you get
16:38 < kanzure> i have been using mems as my search query because i'm not sure how else to get planar things (since planar doesn't seem to be the right term....)
16:38 < jrayhawk> sterling uber alles
16:38 < fenn> waste heat would be an issue with a cell phone
16:39 < jrayhawk> what is the endpoint for this, anyway
16:39 < fenn> TO TRY AND TAKE OVER THE WORLD
16:39 < kanzure> photolithography-style manufacturing of large-scale-motion devices
16:39 < jrayhawk> such as?
16:39 < kanzure> photolithography can do microelectronics and microfluidics and you get lots of efficiency out of this
16:39 < kanzure> compared to manually putting together large circuits/devices
16:40 < kanzure> as far as i know there's no way to get large-scale motion like that.. you have to involve other bulky manufacturing processes?
16:40 < kanzure> or stuff that has to be assembled
16:41 < kanzure> anyway if you had to manually assemble every transistor in a microchip you'd be doomed
16:41 < jrayhawk> i am bad at science and can only sortof do engineering, so some sort of solid goal would greatly help me conceptualize what solutions would look like
16:41 < fenn> microfluidics is not efficient, but it does scale with complexity
16:41 < kanzure> yes by efficient i meant the engineering/assembly concept... not energetic efficiency.
16:42 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i apologize for being so vague but i really don't know what i'm talking about here
16:42 < fenn> please keep your efficiencies sorted when talking about power generation
16:42 < kanzure> and i suspect fenn is on to me already
16:42 < kanzure> fair enough
16:43 < fenn> i think it's a subject worth studying, and apparently so does D. C. Walther and A. P. Pisano
16:43 < kanzure> jrayhawk: from a manufacturing perspective you need lots more equipment to make actuators... and a single process would be interesting and helpful.
16:44 < kanzure> "lots more" might be overstating it
16:45  * fenn mumbles something about a scroll compressor
16:45 < kanzure> .wik scroll compressor
16:45 < yoleaux> "A scroll compressor (also called spiral compressor, scroll pump and scroll vacuum pump) is a device for compressing air or refrigerant. It is used in air conditioning equipment, as an automobile supercharger (where it is known as a scroll-type supercharger) and as a vacuum pump." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor
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16:45 < kanzure> "a vacuum pump is just the thermodynamic inverse of an engine" i wish i remembered my engine stuff.
16:46 < kanzure> "A scroll compressor operating in reverse is known as a scroll expander, and can be used to generate mechanical work from the expansion of a fluid, compressed air or gas. Many residential central heat pump and air conditioning systems and a few automotive air conditioning systems employ a scroll compressor instead of the more traditional rotary, reciprocating, and wobble-plate compressors."
16:47 < eudoxia> didn't drexler write about something like this
16:47 < eudoxia> or maybe i'm assuming because, of course he must have
16:49 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/M0SucWF6B1o
16:49 < yoleaux> Scroll Compressor (dynamics mesh test animation) - YouTube
16:49 < fenn> they stopped it too soon
16:50 < nmz787_i> there's a recent brlcad scroll compressor model
16:51 < fenn> eudoxia do you flip to the back of the book to see the solution
16:52 < eudoxia> fenn: no, i usually have two evince windows of the same PDF open, open viewing the problem and another viewing the solution
16:53 < fenn> touche
16:53 < eudoxia> that last open should be a 'one'
16:53 < kanzure> no it worked
16:54 < jrayhawk> .title http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v8/n2/full/nphys2163.html
16:54 < yoleaux> Realization of a micrometre-sized stochastic heat engine : Nature Physics : Nature Publishing Group
16:54 < jrayhawk> With enough lasers, anything is possible!
16:54 < jrayhawk> (sorry, not actually useful, but sorta neat)
16:54 < kanzure> "Here we demonstrate the experimental realization of a microscopic heat engine, comprising a single colloidal particle subject to a time-dependent optical laser trap"
16:55 < jrayhawk> http://bettigue.blogspot.com/
16:56 < nmz787_i> couldn't the laser just be replaced with a sealed elastic chamber with water in it, on top of a resistive heater?
16:57 < kanzure> laser trap
16:57 < kanzure> i think they were trying to be intentionally fancy
16:57 < kanzure> *optical trap
16:58 < fenn> kanzure how about just hooking up fleas to a harness
16:58 < kanzure> what about a rotary expander
16:59 < kanzure> i'm not sure what thing you're suggesting that for but it sounds like a fun friday night, i'm in
16:59 < fenn> to power the flea circus, duh
16:59 < eudoxia> fleas are circus animals, they are just gonna flail around and try to do stunts with the ropes
16:59 < kanzure> little leds
16:59 < eudoxia> they are not good at coordinated movements
16:59 < kanzure> not with that attitude
16:59 < kanzure> you have to encourage them while training
17:00 < kanzure> is a rotary expander a thing that exists
17:00 < fenn> yes
17:00 < fenn> usually called a pneumatic or hydraulic motor
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17:01 < fenn> .wik rotary vane motor
17:01 < yoleaux> "A pneumatic motor or compressed air engine is a type of motor which does mechanical work by expanding compressed air. Pneumatic motors generally convert the compressed air energy to mechanical work through either linear or rotary motion." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_motor
17:01 < fenn> meh
17:02 < fenn> hm this is new (to me) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasiturbine
17:02 < fenn> .wik quasiturbine
17:02 < yoleaux> "The Quasiturbine or Qurbine engine is a proposed pistonless rotary engine using a rhomboidal rotor whose sides are hinged at the vertices." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasiturbine
17:02 < kanzure> this question seems like a thing genehacker would know things about
17:03 < kanzure> he is good at knowing obscure things
17:03 < kanzure> gah where is he. "away"? wtf.
17:03 < delinquentme_> kanzure, no thanks
17:04 < fenn> actually i designed something like this and forgot about it
17:04 < delinquentme_> I like the efficiency of constant inverting piston velocity
17:04 < delinquentme_> fenn im headed to tech shop for a meetup in a bit
17:05 < delinquentme_> if you wanna go!
17:05 < delinquentme_> afterwards back to the top secret workshop
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17:08 < fenn> i don't think i'm going to make it, but keep me in the loop
17:08 < kanzure> scroll expander looks close but i don't see any papers- makes me a bit suspicious but will look closer
17:09 < kanzure> i was trying to remember various rocket engines but i never classified those into two or three dimensional or many-part. i remember lots of large cones to guide exhaust.... but that's not surprising or interesting here..
17:09 < fenn> linear aerospike
17:09 < kanzure> masers?
17:09 < fenn> nasa has some microthruster array stuff
17:09 < kanzure> ah true... but not helpful here methinks.
17:09 < fenn> apparently the efficiency of a rocket is not tied to its size
17:10  * kanzure drafts 2d-spaceships.pdf
17:10 < kanzure> (not really.)
17:11 < fenn> such an awesome image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_Linear_Aerospike_XRS-2200_Engine_PLW_edit.jpg
17:11 < kanzure> vertical air tunnel?
17:12 < fenn> it's a rocket engine
17:12 < fenn> it's inside out
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17:13 < kanzure> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Aerospikeprinciplediagram.svg/1280px-Aerospikeprinciplediagram.svg.png
17:13 < kanzure> ah...
17:15 < kanzure> scroll compressor animation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsabYhhOko0&t=50s
17:15 < kanzure> (at 50s)
17:16 < kanzure> that is quite clever.
17:16 < kanzure> i wonder how that happened
17:18 < kanzure> "Creux invented the compressor as a rotary steam engine concept, but the metal casting technology of the period was not sufficiently advanced to construct a working prototype, since a scroll compressor demands very tight tolerances to function effectively. The first practical scroll compressors did not appear on the market until after World War II, when higher-precision machine tools enabled their construction. They were not commercially ...
17:18 < kanzure> ... produced for air conditioning until the early 1980s.[2]"
17:18 < kanzure> "A scroll compressor uses two interleaving scrolls to pump, compress or pressurize fluids such as liquids and gases. The vane geometry may be involute, Archimedean spiral, or hybrid curves.[3][4][5][6][7] Often, one of the scrolls is fixed, while the other orbits eccentrically without rotating, thereby trapping and pumping or compressing pockets of fluid between the scrolls. Another method for producing the compression motion is ...
17:18 < kanzure> ... co-rotating the scrolls, in synchronous motion, but with offset centers of rotation. The relative motion is the same as if one were orbiting."
17:22 < kanzure> asciilifeform recommends tesla turbine
17:24 < jrayhawk> Also common in superchargers, nowadays.
17:25 < jrayhawk> huh, I guess actually that's not really the case anymore.
17:26 < jrayhawk> A friend of mine had to rebuild G60; it was neat lookin'.
17:26 < kanzure> .wik fluidyne engine
17:26 < yoleaux> "A Fluidyne engine is an alpha or gamma type Stirling engine with one or more liquid pistons. It contains a working gas (often air), and either two liquid pistons or one liquid piston and a displacer." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidyne_engine
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17:34 < kanzure> asciilifeform recommends a magnetohydrodynamics actuator
17:37 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13JW-Ifg4wA
17:37 < yoleaux> High-thrust spiral motor : DigInfo - YouTube
17:41 < kanzure> 17:41 <+asciilifeform> kanzure: you should be able to fabricate a linear mhd actuator using ordinary etched copper pcb.
17:41 < kanzure> 17:41 <+asciilifeform> or, alternatively, a liquid-pistol stirling engine using two sheets of glass and a garden-variety co2 laser engraver
17:49 < kanzure> muscle wire.... should have thought of muscle wire.
17:50 < kanzure> pre-compressed air or liquid would also work i suppose
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18:18 < kanzure> where is cpopell and why is he not here to tell me things about magnetohydrodynamics
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18:34 < ParahSailin> oh fuck, android emulator is jacking shit from virtualbox
18:34 < ParahSailin> VT-x/AMD-V whatever the fuck that is
18:37 < catern> huh
18:37 < catern> is that CPU feature only available to one hypervisor at a time
18:37 < catern> that would make sense
18:38 < ParahSailin> yeah, having a hard time locating whatever zombie process android emulator has
18:41 < kanzure> your first mistake is using virtualbox
18:43 < catern> yeah I'm gonna have to agree, that is a mistake
18:43 < ParahSailin> oh fuck
18:48 < kanzure> android kvm things are superfast
18:48 < kanzure> qemu-kvm etc
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19:14 < kanzure> pgp source code http://www.symantec.com/connect/downloads/symantec-pgp-desktop-peer-review-source-code
19:18 < catern> that comment
19:22 < kanzure> ?
19:25 < catern> someone asking for support for the API for this library which they presumably just compiled from the source release "not for reuse"
19:26 -!- genehacker [~AndChat33@c-98-232-239-159.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:26 < genehacker> So kanzure what do you want with a planar engine?
19:26 < yoleaux> 26 Jan 2015 03:19Z <kanzure> genehacker: "Achieving motion in a plane orthogonal to the substrate" (in mems) http://www-bsac.eecs.berkeley.edu/~pister/245/project/DungaSatyanarayana.pdf
19:26 < yoleaux> 26 Jan 2015 03:20Z <kanzure> genehacker: "Method for attaching fluidic interconnects using resistively heated gold" http://www-bsac.eecs.berkeley.edu/~pister/245/project/Edd.pdf
19:26 < yoleaux> 26 Jan 2015 03:26Z <kanzure> genehacker: "An electrostatically-actuated rotational micromirror" http://www-bsac.eecs.berkeley.edu/~pister/245/project/JaasmaSanchez.pdf
19:26 < yoleaux> 26 Jan 2015 03:27Z <kanzure> genehacker: air bubble array http://www-bsac.eecs.berkeley.edu/~pister/245/project/JonesYu.pdf
19:26 < yoleaux> 26 Jan 2015 03:43Z <kanzure> genehacker: cmos micromirror method http://www-bsac.eecs.berkeley.edu/~pister/245/project/NgOo.pdf
19:27 < kanzure> genehacker: something easy to manufacture. one manufacturing process tops. no assembly or only one assembly operation.
19:27 < kanzure> someone was recommending a magnetohydrodynamic pump...
19:27 < genehacker> What for?
19:27 < kanzure> someone else suggested a fluidyne actuator, another memory muscle, tesla turbine, spiral compressor or spiral expander
19:28 < kanzure> just generic meso-scale motion, i guess
19:28 < genehacker> Why not just a turbine?
19:28 < kanzure> enough to lift stuff during manufacturing, drilling, etc
19:28 < genehacker> So you want a tiny rotary actuator
19:29 < kanzure> ideally something that can be made through photolithography - again with no assembly or only one assembly step
19:29 < kanzure> actually it doesn't have to be tiny, just flat really
19:29 < genehacker> MEMs scale?
19:29 < kanzure> nah
19:29 < kanzure> not necessarily
19:29 < kanzure> but mems techniques are okay
19:29 < kanzure> fenn says a large-scale comb drive wont work
19:30 < genehacker> How much torque/size
19:30 < kanzure> i don't have any numbers... i don't know, conventional cnc? car engine moving around a few thousand kg?
19:31 < kanzure> a few hundred foot pounds
19:31 < kanzure> between 10 and 500 foot pounds
19:31 < kanzure> stuff like that
19:31 < genehacker> Why not use piezoelectric pancake motors
19:31 < kanzure> looking
19:32 < genehacker> Continuous or controlled rotation?
19:32 < kanzure> no preference
19:32 < kanzure> these pancake motors look pretty small. still looking.
19:34 < genehacker> It seems like getting that much torque would be hard
19:35 < genehacker> Maybe wobble motors would do the trick or an air bladder driven harmonic drive
19:35 < kanzure> looking
19:37 < genehacker> Wobble motor = ring gear moves around rotor gear
19:37 < kanzure> .wik harmonic drive
19:37 < yoleaux> "Harmonic Drive is a strain wave gear that can improve certain characteristics compared to traditional gearing systems. Harmonic Drive is trademarked by the Harmonic Drive company." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_drive
19:39 < kanzure> " The key to the design of the strain wave gear is that there are fewer teeth (for example two fewer) on the flexspline than there are on the circular spline. This means that for every full rotation of the wave generator, the flexspline would be required to rotate a slight amount (two teeth, for example) backward relative to the circular spline. Thus the rotation action of the wave generator results in a much slower rotation of the ...
19:39 < kanzure> ... flexspline in the opposite direction."
19:39 < genehacker> There's also pancake PCB motors
19:40 < genehacker> You have a disk with curved radial
19:40 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrsoE-j0DXo
19:40 < yoleaux> Electric Motor Pancake - YouTube
19:40 < genehacker> Traces and you apply current from the middle out and use magnets
19:41 < kanzure> ah interesting
19:41 < genehacker> http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/hsc/hsc/electric_motors5.html
19:42 < genehacker> I doubt it has much force
19:42 < genehacker> Err torque
19:43 < genehacker> But again why?
19:43 < genehacker> Why do you need a flat cheap motor?
19:44 < kanzure> hard to explain
19:44 < genehacker> Is it flat so it is cheap?
19:44 < kanzure> flat so it's easier to make
19:44 < kanzure> less manufacturing steps
19:45 < kanzure> we can do vlsi for microelectronics and microfluidics and it would be nice to have vlsi (very large scale integration) for actuators that can move things around
19:45 < genehacker> Someone's trying to do that
19:45 < kanzure> i want spatial light modulation to make high torque actuators basically
19:45 < kanzure> or motors/engines/whatever
19:46 < genehacker> Guy at UT
19:46 < genehacker> High torque is the hard part
19:47 < genehacker> The idea he had was to mass produce smart actuators
19:47 < kanzure> smart=?
19:47 < genehacker> With standard interfaces
19:48 < genehacker> Smart as in able to control force, torque, position, acceleration, etc
19:48 < kanzure> cool
19:49 < genehacker> And you have actuators specialized for high acceleration, high torque, high speed or whatever
19:51 < genehacker> This way you could put together a robot, exoskeleton, car with all wheels powered and steered and have it just work
19:52 < genehacker> And because your actuators are standardized all you have to do is mass produce them to make them cheap
19:53 < genehacker> Delbert Tesar, the guy who did robotics really pushed this
19:54 < genehacker> Even wanted to do the whole VLSI thing for mechanical systems
19:54 < kanzure> "Rabindran and Tesar (2009) introduced a dual-input/single-output actuator based
19:55 < kanzure> on an epicy- clic gear train, which can realize the force/velocity control"
19:55 < kanzure> cool
19:55 < genehacker> Supposedly he's in talks with some Korean company to make this stuff
19:56 < kanzure> can't find anything about his vlsi work on google scholar
19:56 < genehacker> And he has a way to make torque dense electric actuators
19:57 < kanzure> ah "intelligent electromechanical actuators"
19:58 < genehacker> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&q=delbert%20tesar%20vlsi&ei=ejvUVJbtJo-rogS-pYLADg&url=http://wikileaks.org/gifiles/attach/35/35859_CIRV%2520prop%2520doc0020511.pdf&ved=0CCoQFjAF&usg=AFQjCNEjcFu7TlLFJ3E9uKSN4Sbi0nDEeg&sig2=iaUXNvDAbt3OSnPW7VFd9A
19:59 < genehacker> He isn't very internet inclined
19:59 < kanzure> haha
19:59 < genehacker> That has details, I can't believe it's on wikileaks
20:00 < kanzure> i see a thesis of his doctoral student, measuring performance of soldiers in the army
20:00 < kanzure> wikileaks delivers
20:05 < genehacker> I can't seem to find his crazy proposal for a vehicle with all wheels powered and steered with active suspension, torque sensing
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20:07 < genehacker> A camera looking ahead of each tire to see what the tire's going to hit, a camera behind the tire to measure terrain deflection, a tire deflection sensor, and ground penetrating radar
20:07 < kanzure> page 25 of that link maybe
20:07 < genehacker> On every tire
20:08 < genehacker> With something that has like 8
20:08 < kanzure> (labeled as page 22 in the doc)
20:09 < kanzure> (his student's thesis) bayesian soldier performance model http://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/bitstream/handle/2152/ETD-UT-2011-05-3201/MCFARLAND-THESIS.pdf?sequence=1
20:10 < genehacker> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=Uj7UVKKfD5broASd8IF4&url=http://www.sae.org/events/dod/presentations/2008delberttesar.pdf&ved=0CC4QFjAF&usg=AFQjCNGQceX-gOfHFih-pbYW6v-lymUBxQ&sig2=zI3uI2lkigu8go81OsSCIA
20:10 < genehacker> Check this out
20:10 < kanzure> "The Development of a Full Architecture For High Performance Actuators For Navy Applications" http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA381029
20:11 < genehacker> 5th slide gives a pretty good idea of what VLSI in mechanical systems looks like
20:11 < kanzure> ultra caps
20:13 < genehacker> I just wish he'd hurry up and commercialize this stuff
20:14 < genehacker> Because the actuators we have now suck
20:14 < genehacker> Computing and sensing have advanced by leaps and bounds but our actuators have not
20:15 < genehacker> Hobby servos suck
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 06 00:00:46 2015