--- Log opened Tue Mar 10 00:00:17 2015
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07:14 < kanzure> "it is believed that theoretically a coccoid[1] cell with the minimum number of genes to be free living in an environment other than a living host would have a minimum cell diameter of approximately 0.15–0,2 μm"
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08:09 < kanzure> wouldn't it be better to self-infect for cold season? so that you have better control over your schedule and when you get ill?
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09:57 < maaku> kanzure: better not to get ill
09:58 < kanzure> my immune system seems to work
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10:46 < andytoshi> i was telling someone in a bar last night that eukaryotes are close to physical limits on maximally efficient information processing (and that this is physical evidence that these limits are real ones)
10:46 < andytoshi> does anyone have a citation for this?
10:47 < andytoshi> or at least remind me in what sense eukaryotes are efficient (i had thought it was information storage, but DNA uses several atoms per bit so this doesn't sound right..)
10:47 < nmz787_i> we don't know if there are quantum effects at play with bio stuff as of today
10:47 < nmz787_i> but it seems there may be
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11:39 < kanzure> andytoshi: there's no way that they are information processing efficient :) computronium can theoretically do much better
12:01 < heath> http://www.bitchcoin.biz/
12:06 < maaku> andytoshi: that sounds like a very strange and suspect claim
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12:26 < andytoshi> i'm sure i heard it here
12:26 < andytoshi> not that that contradicts you :)
12:29 < maaku> well, I mean random molecules bouncing around is not efficient.
12:32 < maaku> in Nanosystems Drexler ballpark estimates the computational capacity of a Babbage machine built with diamond rods and gears the size of a eukaryote cell
12:33 < maaku> google is failing me and I don't have the book with me, but I seem to recall at the time I read it ~10 years ago it was some orders of magnitude greater than the top 500 supercomputers combined
12:34 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/irc/nanosystems.tar
12:34 < maaku> awesome, thank you
12:34 < maaku> and that's no where near computronium limits
12:35 < andytoshi> thx maaku, kanzure. i'll stop repeating this
12:36 < kanzure> there are worse bar fights to participate in
12:36 < andytoshi> this is true
12:36 < maaku> heh
12:37 < kanzure> man now i want to go post a satire of patio11's starfighter post... except mine will be called barfighter.
12:37 < maaku> i'm not sure it's a terrible claim, just apples to oranges.. how do you measure the information processing power of a bio cell?
12:37 < kanzure> well you can probably get some thermal data and then model it as some sort of heat engine
12:37 < maaku> kanzure: do it
12:37 < andytoshi> you could look at the cost in joules of meosis and compare that to copying however many bits
12:38 < kanzure> maaku: "We are going to completely disrupt the bar fighting scene. No longer will you be matched with hapless dolts. Only the very best bar fighters will be available on our app."
12:38 < maaku> andytoshi: right, and it probably is efficient at that.
12:39 < maaku> i mean DNA is pretty a damn compact digital tape, and 3+ billion years of evolutionary pressure probably makes those copying enzymes very efficient
12:40 < maaku> but that feels like an evaluation metric weighted towards making bio look good ;)
12:41 < andytoshi> well, "efficient copying" is as close as you can get to describing a "goal" of evolution
12:42 < andytoshi> but sure, that's just what i landed on when my bar fightee demanded i expand on my claim of efficiency
12:42 < maaku> but not of computation / information processing
12:43 < kanzure> "efficient copying" nope, more like efficient resistance to selection-for-non-reproduction.
12:44 < maaku> andytoshi: you must go to more interesting bars than I do
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12:45 < andytoshi> maaku: myself and one other in the math dept were hanging around with a prospective grad student, we went to the bar i wanted to because i knew it'd have a jukebox and be otherwise empty
12:45 < andytoshi> it was indeed empty, but the jukebox "doesn't work on mondays"
12:46 < andytoshi> i have had interesting conversations with strangers about this kind of stuff, but they almost never challenge my claims :/
12:49 < maaku> kanzure: so I have a brother who has chosen achieving indefinate lifespans as his life's quest. he's graduated from a bioengineering undergrad program about a year ago
12:50 < maaku> problem is he's aimless as he sees no career starting point which advances that cause, and is unfortunately the easily-discouraged type that needs a swift kick in the pants to get going...
12:50 < maaku> any suggestions generally? I feel he could be of great service to the cause, if there were only a way to motivate him into self-starting
13:07 < kanzure> maaku: selective breeding of animals to survive cryopreservation
13:12 < ParahSailin_> kanzure: you'd probably get a kick out of this http://hpmor.com/notes/119/
13:14 < kanzure> don't make me read harry potter come on man be kind
13:14 < kanzure> the hugos? :/
13:15 < ParahSailin_> nah, it gets better
13:17 < maaku> ParahSailin_: spoilers?
13:17 < ParahSailin_> its an author's note, not a chapter
13:18 < maaku> ok i'm just not caught up and wanted to make sure he didn't reference things
13:19 < kanzure> oh brother you read this? :||||
13:19 < kanzure> hahahaha "First, I’ve designed an attempted successor to Wikipedia and/or Tumblr and/or peer review ... If any accredited investor is interested in buying in at a ludicrous valuation or with open-ended convertible bonds"
13:20 < kanzure> and then he wants someone to give him $20 million so he can start investing in startups
13:20 < ParahSailin_> i bet hes gonna get it
13:21 < kanzure> "Assaults on obesity that involve directly killing fat cells, rather than futile attempts to mess with the surrounding metabolic processes."
13:21 < kanzure> well, i have to admit his writing has improved dramatically, he is not at all as infuriating as he once was, except that he's a moron
13:21 < kanzure> so his bad ideas still leak through
13:21 < chris_99> 'an attempted successor to Wikipedia' is that serious
13:21 < kanzure> but his actual writing style is much better now
13:21 < ParahSailin_> i didnt think three worlds collide was bad
13:22 < ParahSailin_> for internet fiction
13:22 < maaku> kanzure: meh, it's good fiction
13:22 < maaku> he writes better fiction than he does AI or philosophy
13:22 < kanzure> that's entirely possible. but that does not make it good :).
13:23 < maaku> well if you haven't read it, how can you judge?
13:23 < maaku> the first 20 chapters or so are shit, if that's what you're judging it by
13:24 < kanzure> i read the first chapter once and then felt really bad about myself for trusting someone's recommendation.
13:24 < ParahSailin_> haha but wait
13:24 < ParahSailin_> he later complains that he wrote his characters that way on purpose
13:25 < ParahSailin_> and that readers were being unfair for thinking he was just writing author-inserts
13:25 < kanzure> ah when i was complaining about his writing style i mean all of his previous stuff
13:25 < maaku> kanzure: as i said, shit. he actually learns how to write decent fiction by at least the middle of the series
13:25 < maaku> i wishi he would go back and rewrite the beginning
13:25 < kanzure> it's like wikipedia but tumblr
13:26 < kanzure> i call it outrage sjw fortress
13:26 < maaku> ParahSailin_: well it is such an obvious author insert. his argument that it is not is that HPMOR!Harry is too dumb to be him
13:28 < ParahSailin_> well no, his argument for why he wrote him that way is that the character is not actually an 11 year old, but a sixty year old personality implanted into a baby
13:29 < maaku> spoiler! although i already guessed that one
13:30 < kanzure> also it is weird to see him repenting about his terrible ways and trying to express an interest in physical hardware stuff
13:31 < ParahSailin_> he didnt used to like hardware?
13:31 < maaku> but no, i mean when he was accused of author-inserting, he said something along the lines of "harry's not actually a perfect rationalist, i had to dumb him down for the story to be interesting"
13:32 < kanzure> ParahSailin_: no way, he was more like the type to prefer the perfect algorithm to one day take over the planet and create ai to then cook him some eggs or whatever
13:32 < ParahSailin_> ah i see
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13:33 < maaku> haha spot on kanzure
13:33 < maaku> ParahSailin_: no he has absolutely zero engineering experience. zero.
13:34 < maaku> he may have programmed a VCR once. but this is hearsay.
13:34 < ParahSailin_> well his fresh eyes will make him a better investor
13:35 < kanzure> actually his $HOME once had some code in it, i wonder if i have a copy
13:35 < ParahSailin_> what?
13:36 < kanzure> how do you think stalkmatrix works? by asking everyone what they are up to?
13:36 < maaku> wait wth? angel investor? with what?
13:36 < maaku> he's lived off community donations for the last 15 years
13:37 < kanzure> he wants someone to give him $50M so he can invest in companies :P
13:38  * maaku goes to read the author note
13:39 < ParahSailin_> he could just rename the characters like she did in 50 shades of gray and sell on amazon
13:39 < ParahSailin_> being a twilight fanfic didnt hurt the sales/legality of that one
13:41 < maaku> what. the. fuck.
13:41 < maaku> "hey anybody, want to throw me a line?"
13:42 < maaku> totally flailing around. admits he has no experience in any of these areas (since he's asking for referrals), but claims his superior rationality will allow him to beat all incombants
13:43 < maaku> also quadcopters with anti-mosquito lasers? seriously?
13:43 < chris_99> haven't they done that kind of thing already
13:43 < andytoshi> yeah, i'm generally more sympathetic to EY than you guys and that note made me cringe
13:44 < maaku> chris_99: only for PR. it's way easier to use e.g. geneticly modified mosquitos to wipe out the population
13:44 < kanzure> maaku: precisely, thus my comment about how he seems to have admitted the existence of hardware. which is unusual for him.
13:45 < maaku> andytoshi: i try to be sympathetic. i read the sequences, because there were actually some gems in there.
13:46 < maaku> but the hubris, the pig headedness, the extremist sensationalism, and the cult-like following makes it very hard to be sympathetic
13:46 < maaku> andytoshi: did I tell you I've gotten death threats from LW'ers?
13:47 < maaku> that kind of environment does not make it easy to actually get work done towards our supposedly common goals
13:49 < andytoshi> maaku: o.O i idd not know that. generally i do not like the lesswrong community (the user posts almost always come off as having the same hubris etc as eliezer's while also being dumb)
13:49 < ParahSailin_> death threats?
13:50 < andytoshi> i had a pretty positive impression of the sequences, except the quantum stuff has some serious problems (e.g. many-worlds is only "obviously true" if you imagine the born probabilities have never been observed)
13:50 < maaku> yes, for openly pursuing and advocating for "unsafe" AI
13:51 < andytoshi> :/ they like to talk about not being a cult, you'd think they'd make an effort to act that out..
13:51 < maaku> andytoshi: there's even a whole sequence on how to avoid being a cult! :P
13:51 < andytoshi> :P
13:52 < kanzure> yes when you define ai safety as god safety i don't know what to tell you
13:52 < maaku> andytoshi: many worlds is the simplest interpretation. the conclusions he draws from it are unsupported..
13:52 < kanzure> simplest in terms of what
13:52 < kanzure> i suppose it makes it simple to not have to do anything
13:52 < andytoshi> maaku: agreed on both counts, though it would not shock me terribly if it was wrong because it's hard to see why it doesn't imply the born probabilities should be uniform
13:53 < andytoshi> kanzure: it's all linear and obeys all observed conservation laws, "no new physics"
13:53 < kanzure> but so do the other non-many-worlds
13:54 < andytoshi> whereas something like a physical "waveform collapse" would need to act in really contrived ways to avoid violating conservation laws
13:54 < kanzure> i would tell you to read more feynman but he just eventually started handwaving everything
13:54 < kanzure> "CLOCKS! also i have a bitching van"
13:55 < chris_99> lol
13:55 < kanzure> http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/archive/archive_2014/images/feynman-van-14-0066-30D.jpg
13:55 < maaku> kanzure: simplist in the Ockham sense. MWI has the fewest assumptions.
13:55 < andytoshi> kanzure: i've done a QFT course, i am really not impressed with QFT or feynman's attitude toward mathematical rigor
13:55 < andytoshi> (not that  he could've done QFT well by caring; the rest of physics has yet to fill in the gaps given like 70 years..)
13:55 < maaku> the existence of the other worlds falls out of the math of quantum physics. you have to add extra, unverified assumptions to reduce it down to a single world
13:56 < maaku> kanzure: see http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2015/02/19/the-wrong-objections-to-the-many-worlds-interpretation-of-quantum-mechanics/
13:56 < andytoshi> oooh how am i not subscribed to that blog?
13:57 < maaku> :)
14:00 < andytoshi> i wish caroll wouldn't say "in Hilbert space", to a mathematician a hilbert space is a complete normed inner product space, and the phrase "in Hilbert space" has connotations of dirac-style completely ill-defined math
14:02 < andytoshi> e.g. see any undergrad QM text, "in Hilbert space" means a space with mostly L^2 operators, plus some limits from weak L^2 space, and an "inner product" which takes any pair of these random things into real numbers
14:03 < andytoshi> i guess, generously you could say that it's a "weakly typed inner product" but the rules you need to get correct conclusions out of it are similar in complexity to the rules you need to predict addition in javascript
14:03 < andytoshi> </rant> sorry
14:04 < kanzure> rants are the only acceptable form of communication in here
14:04 < kanzure> so carry on
14:04 < andytoshi> i'll just leave this here http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9907069
14:04 < kanzure> .title
14:04 < yoleaux> [quant-ph/9907069] Mathematical surprises and Dirac's formalism in quantum mechanics
14:04 < kanzure> paperbot: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9907069
14:04 < paperbot> http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1088%2F0034-4885%2F63%2F12%2F201
14:04 < andytoshi> lol, arxiv is already free to access..
14:04 < kanzure> yeah but i wanted a link
14:05 < kanzure> aww 404
14:05 < kanzure> this has backfired
14:07 < andytoshi> http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9907069v2
14:07 < andytoshi> is a pdf
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14:12 < andytoshi> o.O caroll claims gleason's theorem implies the born rule (if you assume that there ought to be any probabilities at all :P), i've never heard this before
14:13 < andytoshi> (that's not quite true, i read it in a book about quantum logic by david w cohen as an undergrad, but i didn't understand it at the time)
14:13 < chris_99> http://www.disneyresearch.com/projects/ has some pretty cool things in it
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14:25 < ParahSailin_> i was visiting the facebook campus-- in one of the buildings there was loud ping-pong playing in a big echo-y open office
14:26 < nmz787_i> ward cunningham needs help with HTML5 audio API for this teach-morse-code app http://h2.ward.asia.wiki.org/view/welcome-visitors/view/how-to-learn-morse/view/about-morseteacher-plugin
14:26 < chris_99> http://www.disneyresearch.com/project/touche-touch-and-gesture-sensing-for-the-real-world/ is really neat
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16:13 < delinquentme> command line util to list all headers at a given url?
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16:23 < kanzure> delinquentme: check your messages fool
16:24 < archels> curl -ILv url
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16:51 < maaku> so.. nootropics is in the title. anyone suggest what I should start with? Bacopa Monniera? Theanine?
16:54 < maaku> i'm extremely sensitive to caffeine, so i'm avoiding anything with that
16:55 < kanzure> sensitive good or bad?
16:56 < maaku> one expresso in the afternoon and i'm jittery and can't sleep until 4am
16:56 < maaku> generally bad (I feel scatterbrained) unless i'm trying to avoid sleep
16:56 < justanotheruser> at the risk being banned, reddits nootropic subreddit has a lot of documentation https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/wiki/index
16:57 < kanzure> longecity has more documentation
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16:58 < justanotheruser> I tried making my own energy drink. It actually worked really well, but tasted terrible
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17:44 < kanzure> peter thiel joins ycombinator http://blog.ycombinator.com/welcome-peter
17:44  * maaku geeks out over the printed HPMoR that just arrived in the mail
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18:33 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
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19:03 < kanzure> hmm
19:04 < nsh> .qik HPMoR
19:04 < nsh> .wik HPMoR
19:04 < yoleaux> "Eliezer Shlomo Yudkowsky (born September 11, 1979) is an American blogger, writer, and advocate for friendly artificial intelligence." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPMOR
19:04 < nsh> argh
19:04  * nsh clears the buffer
19:10 < kanzure> haha
19:10 < kanzure> you didn't know who eliezer was?
19:10 < kanzure> http://www.usbtypewriter.com/
19:14 < catern> no dedicated HPMOR article?
19:15  * catern shakes fist at deletionists
19:24 < JayDugger> Really?
19:24 < JayDugger> A typewriter?
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20:21 < maaku> i absolutely need one of those
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21:07 < kanzure> http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/10/the-drugs-still-work/
21:07 < kanzure> "matches unused medicine with poor patients"
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23:49 < delinquentme> seriously. FML. some combinatoric bullshit with cors and chrome and nginx ... does anyone have a *WIDE* open cors for nginx ?
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 11 00:00:18 2015