--- Log opened Tue Mar 17 00:00:24 2015
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06:12 < kanzure> Daeken: i tihnk there's some optical considerations that i completely forget
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08:03 < kanzure> "Well, my cat meows when I switch on the light so I suppose I should write about how "Electricity suggests language development is intrinsic in mammals""
08:05 < chris_99> heh
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08:58 < delinquentme> http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/16/pinterest-raises-367-million-pushing-it-past-1-billion-raised-in-all/
08:59 < delinquentme> what have we done here ?
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09:15 < justanot1eruser> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165176599001470
09:16 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Efficiency%20at%20different%20levels%20of%20aggregation%3A%20public%20vs.%20private%20sector%20firms%0A%20.pdf
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10:56 < Daeken> lol, redhotfireball sent startkeylogger.  that's been a while.
10:59 < catern> yeah I got it too
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11:30 < Daeken> so, i've found everything i need (i believe) outside of wafer bonding.  a friend said i can use the SEM in her lab no problem, so i can check everything there.  silicon wafers are expensive, but not as much so as i expected; i'd rather not do initial tests on them, though, just due to the cost.  wonder what i can use as a stand-in.
11:32 < kanzure> microfluidics is done with su8/pdms/stuff not silicon
11:32 < kanzure> often
11:32 < kanzure> i suppose silicon is an option
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11:38 < Daeken> wonder how that compares in cost
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11:39 < Daeken> kanzure: do they pour the pdms on a master or do they etch on the pdms?
12:04 < Daeken> hrm... there's no reason that you couldn't pour pdms on a master made of much cheaper materials
12:27 < ParahSailin> you cant really etch pdms
12:28 < Daeken> ParahSailin: that's what i assumed
12:28 < ParahSailin> well, someone will probably tell me that there is some boutique fib method that will put a hole in pdms
12:28 < Daeken> but figured i'd ask
12:29 < ParahSailin> but it is not typically done
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12:33 < Daeken> really wish there was a way to 3d print a master with this kind of precision.  it'd make life so much easier :P
12:37 < chris_99> you guys seen this - http://carbon3d.com/
12:39 < Daeken> it's really interesting the way they're doing it.  it seems that they're using a DMD-based UV projector for it, unlike the form1's single mirror laser assembly
12:39 < Daeken> it's standard SLA other than that, but i want one, for sure.
12:40 < Daeken> the claim about theirs being "true" 3d printing is laughable though, IMO.  this is the same 2d layer based approach, they're just using a slightly different angle.
12:41 < chris_99> its the oxygen thats the unique aspect really
12:42 < superkuh> See the top few threads in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9215890
12:42 < Daeken> i'm curious to see how the oxygen really plays a part.  their claims are a bit too vague to make much of them so far
12:43 < superkuh> Particularly the ones about it being front page in Science next month.
12:43 < superkuh> http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2015/03/16/science.aaa2397 , etc.
12:43 < paperbot> http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.aaa2397
12:43 < Daeken> oh nice.  i'm excited to read that
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12:50 < chris_99> i wonder what they're using for the Z axis
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13:05 < Daeken> http://www.photoplotstore.com/pages/photomasks.html that's ... incredibly cheap.
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13:20 < Daeken> it seems like it makes way more sense to go with something like that rather than trying to do it from scratch
13:20 < Daeken> especially at those prices.
13:20 < kanzure> way too large
13:21 < kanzure> 2.2 mm feature sizes?
13:21 < kanzure> oh these are per photomask
13:21 < kanzure> hmm. that sort of sucks. so much for rapid iteration?
13:22 < Daeken> the feature sizes are in the micrometer range, for fairly cheap.
13:22 < kanzure> at $300 per mask that's already $30k for 100 iterations
13:23 < kanzure> hmm i guess $30k isn't that bad. as long as the number of bugs introduced is like... none per iteration.
13:23 < Daeken> i think the master material will be the expensive part, not the masks.
13:24 < kanzure> the master material from which the masks are made?
13:24 < Daeken> it needs to be exceptionally flat, and needs to etch well ... that seems to be why most people are using silicon wafers for the masters.
13:24 < kanzure> these are "direct write laser photomasks" so they prbably don't have masters
13:24 < Daeken> no, the mold that the pdms is poured onto.
13:24 < ParahSailin> wafers are not that expensive
13:24 < kanzure> Daeken: you can do photolithograhy with pdms stuff
13:24 < Daeken> ParahSailin: i'm seeing $200ish
13:24 < Daeken> kanzure: directly?  i can't find anyone doing that
13:25 < ParahSailin> 100mm wafers are not 200
13:25 < kanzure> um... hmm. good question.
13:25 < kanzure> i would ask in #reprap but i am leaving brb
13:25 < Daeken> kanzure: the process i'm seeing is: take an si wafer, coat with su-8, expose to UV with a photomask, etch, remove resist, pour pdms on that
13:26 < ParahSailin> theres no photo-patternable pdms
13:26 < kanzure> maybe it was photo-patternable su8
13:26 < ParahSailin> thats redundant
13:26 < kanzure> photo-curing is a thing that people do for microfluidics
13:26 < Daeken> kanzure: the su8 goes on the si -- the su8 is the photoresist itself.
13:26 < ParahSailin> all su8 is photo-patternable
13:26 < Daeken> ParahSailin: oh wow, i just found some cheap suppliers of wafers.  nevermind on the expensive part comment.
13:26 < kanzure> linkz
13:27 < Daeken> https://order.universitywafer.com/default.aspx?cat=Silicon test grade (which i imagine will be Good Enough (TM) for this) in the tens of dollars.
13:27 < Daeken> we can always go higher grade if it is a problem.
13:29 < Daeken> all in, we're looking at maybe $400 per iteration, for basically as many copies as we want.  that's really not bad.
13:30 < Daeken> and we'll get the precision we need, without burning a ton of time on the fun of projection.
13:31 < ParahSailin> you could just try transparency masks instead of cr ones
13:32 < ParahSailin> if its microfluidics you arent going to go crazy with feature size
13:32 < Daeken> as in laser print on a transparent sheet, effectively?
13:33 < ParahSailin> yeah like what you buy if you make cr masks yourself
13:35 < Daeken> i was looking around at what's out there in terms of high-res laser printers, and didn't see much more than 2400x2400 dpi (some 4800x600 and such, but that's about it)... that gives about 10um per dot.  but that means everything needs to be aligned to that grid, assuming that it's printing pretty much perfectly
13:36 < ParahSailin> i think the services that give you transparencies are cheaper
13:36 < Daeken> i'd be concerned about small variances causing issues, e.g. a sharp edge on the inside of a channel causing turbulance.  but i dunno if that is an issue -- microfluidics is a weird thing.
13:36 < Daeken> hmm, wonder howhigh res a dedicated service would give.
13:37 < Daeken> i was just looking at generic printing places
13:37 < ParahSailin> those are as high res as the cr masks they make from transparencies
13:37 < Daeken> ParahSailin: know of any good services for it?
13:38 < ParahSailin> i dont know what we used but im sure there are lots
13:40 < delinquentme> I feel like this is a silly question ... but ... is it EVER a good idea to name something in any data format with spaces?
13:40 < delinquentme> kanzure, nmz787
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13:41 < ParahSailin> a file name?
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13:47 < kanzure> http://www.lowrisc.org/docs/gsoc-2015-ideas/
13:49 < kanzure> delinquentme: no, no reason to ever use whitespace in a file name unless it is semantically meaningful. and also if you re never going to totrture someone in front of a shell prompt.
13:50 < delinquentme> kanzure, you cant tell anyone else this
13:50 < delinquentme> but im developing w people who work on windows machines
13:50 < delinquentme> WEH
13:51 < kanzure> oh, well... nah, even then.
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14:52 < archels> Daeken: why don't you just downscale optically if you're concerned about resolution?
15:03 < Daeken> archels: definitely an option for the future, potentially
15:04 < Daeken> i'm just trying to think of how to do this as easily as possible
15:04 < Daeken> introducing optics means we need to adjust for it at the mask level -- not hard, but adds complexity.  just trying to simplify
15:05 < archels> sorry, I'm a bit late to this conversation, what are you trying to achieve in the end?
15:05 < Daeken> archels: making the master mold for the dna synthesis microfluidic array described in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf
15:06 < archels> ah, brilliant
15:08 < Daeken> the easiest route right now appears to be outsourcing the production of the photomask, spin coating a silicon wafer with su-8, exposing it using the photomask, developing it, then pouring pdms on that mold.  i can't figure out if people are directly pouring on the developed SU-8 (once the masked portions are cleaned off), or acid etching the wafer and cleaning the whole thing of su-8... i'm assuming the latter, because otherwise any variance in the su-8
15:09 < Daeken> acid etching will allow us to vary the thickness as we see fit, so that seems like the right route.  but i'm still researching that.
15:14 < ParahSailin> most people will actually use regular photoresist and etch wafer
15:16 < Daeken> ParahSailin: so is the use of su-8 to eliminate that?
15:17 < Daeken> ah hah.  yes, that appears to be the case.
15:17 < ParahSailin> usually either/or -- etching for profile in si or su8
15:18 < Daeken> yeah
15:18 < Daeken> okay, that makes more sense.
15:18 < Daeken> so if we want a uniform depth, su-8.  if we want to vary it, etching with normal photoresist.
15:26 < andytoshi> kanzure: re your "why are people using google as a method of learning facts?" complaints a week or two ago (about central banks and bitcoin) here's a bunch of less-wrongers advocating just that https://www.reddit.com/r/HPMOR/comments/2zd3x7/actual_science_flaws_in_hpmor/
15:27 < andytoshi> (grep for Google in the comments if you don't feel like reading a lot)
15:30 < ParahSailin> pretty sure carbon nanotubes wouldnt work like that in real life
15:30 < ParahSailin> how many newtons of force to break a carbon bond?
15:32 < ParahSailin> on the order of nano-newtons?
15:37 < Daeken> hrm... i don't think su-8 is really going to work here, for two reasons: 1) channel depth won't be high enough, 2) no ability to vary height.  regular photoresist and acid etching will be more effective.
15:39 < Daeken> it'll also last for many, many more use
15:39 < Daeken> s
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16:31 < ParahSailin>  su-8 is comparatively expensive
16:33 < Daeken> quite so
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19:21 < kanzure> http://femto.io/products/imuduino
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20:15 < kanzure> list of predatory academic publishers http://scholarlyoa.com/publishers/
20:15 < kanzure> "archers & elevators publishing house" uh...
20:19 < ParahSailin> i should do an indiegogo to find out what the compnent of ballsack that smells like bleach is
20:20 < kanzure> you might have a condition
20:21 < ParahSailin> probably involving a library of the olfactory gpcrs and see which ones respond both to chlorine and semen
20:21 < kanzure> you know, i just remembered that parasailing is a thing
20:22 < ParahSailin> you've never had a curiosity why semen smells like bleach
20:23 < kanzure> it's entirely possible that my nose is broken
20:24 < kanzure> or wait, maybe yours is
20:24 < ParahSailin> apparently this plant produces a ligand that activates the same receptor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrus_calleryana
20:27 < ParahSailin> please dont tell me that im the only one who has observed this phenomenon, and that you have not mitm'd me to see all these "why semen smells like bleach" pages on quora
20:27 < kanzure> my man in the middle attacks aren't nearly so personalized
20:28 < ParahSailin> there does not appear to be anything in the literature about this
20:28 < ParahSailin> but, you know, why would there be a chlorine smell that humans can detect
20:29 < ParahSailin> molecular chlorine is not something that really existed until like 300 years ago
20:29 < ParahSailin> in our environment i mean
20:32 < ParahSailin> its probably just some random receptor for i dunno some steroid metabolite in semen that got enlisted for duty when someone invented the chlor alkali process
20:32 < kanzure> receptors don't always need specificity
20:32 < ParahSailin> that happened to have the same specificity purely by accident
20:32 < ParahSailin> wait, so i know a guy who is anosmic
20:33 < ParahSailin> i wonder how he perceives inhaled bleach
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20:33 < ParahSailin> fuck, and hes offline now
20:33 < kanzure> what a loser
20:34 < ParahSailin> i wanna win the ig nobel prize with this
20:34 < ParahSailin> this is my sincere dream
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20:38 < ParahSailin> ok, so chlorine gas is not the primary odorant, but it reacts quickly to form one
20:39 < ParahSailin> or so one poorly cited sentence claims
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21:36 < Daeken> okay, so, i've found sources for just about everything we need.  the one thing missing: spin coater.
21:36 < Daeken> given the pricing i'm seeing, i think that building my own is the most likely route.  i could buy one off ebay, but i'd rather come up with plans for a coater that everyone can build, since everything else is so cheap.
21:36 < Daeken> replication is a Good Thing (TM) and all that.
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23:34 < Daeken> due to the nature of this project, i think that double sided tape might actually work just fine... no need for a vacuum.  can rough up the underside of the wafer, to improve adhesion.  plus, we're talking a tiny wafer and 4000rpm.  not exactly a lot.
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23:44 < fenn> .title http://www.ti.com/devnet/docs/catalog/thirdpartydevtoolfolder.tsp?actionPerformed=productFolder&productId=16180&DCMP=DesignHouse&HQS=dlp-embed-cat-14q3-bti-pf-en
23:44 < yoleaux> LC3000-PRO DLP Pico Projector with UV LED DLP Pico Projector (Design Kits & Evaluation Modules) | Texas Instruments
23:44 < fenn> $1450
23:47 < fenn> 800x480 resolution 385nm, 400nm, 405nm options
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23:49 < fenn> huh,  this DLP "LightCrafter" product line has existed since 2012: http://www.ti.com/tool/dlplightcrafter
23:50 < fenn> "Up to 4000 Hz binary pattern rate"
23:51 < fenn> it's actually being marketed for use in structured light and machine vision applications
23:51 < genehacker> well DLP isn't exactly new tech
23:52 < fenn> yes but i definitely never found anything like this in past searches
23:53 < genehacker> that 4KHz took a moment to sink in
23:53 < fenn> you could do 3D scanning at ~250Hz
23:54 < fenn> with an appropriate high speed camera
23:56 < fenn> it's only 20 lumens so noise would be a problem
23:57 < fenn> it would be fun to do 3d scanning by throwing objects through the air in front of a scanner
--- Log closed Wed Mar 18 00:00:25 2015