--- Log opened Sat Apr 18 00:00:32 2015
--- Day changed Sat Apr 18 2015
00:00 < kanzure> ""Before the invention of the baby sling, dated by Dr Taylor to at least 2.2 million years ago, when human ancestor head size suddenly began to increase, physically mature infants were more likely to survive, because caring for slower-developing immature ones was difficult, uneconomic and often dangerous. Mothers holding their infants were more vulnerable to attack from predators or other humans than those using baby slings. They were ...
00:00 < kanzure> ... also less able to perform other more economically productive tasks. Most importantly, the invention of the baby sling artificially lengthened human gestation, said Dr Taylor."
00:00 < kanzure> ( from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9396409 )
00:02 < Taek> Would something like Gattaca-style genetic optimization be on-topic for this channel?
00:02 < kanzure> yep
00:02 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/
00:04 < kanzure> and more generally, see http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2014
00:05 < Taek> would you know how many human DNA sequences are publically and privately available?
00:05 < kanzure> at least thousands... e.g. here's just one project http://aws.amazon.com/1000genomes/
00:05 < Taek> I was thinking about using machine learning to pull out more genes that seem coorelated to things like intelligence or disease resistance
00:06 < kanzure> and genbank has been growing exponentially for decades http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/genbank/
00:06 < kanzure> unfortunately intelligence is very hard to define
00:07 < Taek> usually when people talk about intelligence they really want something more specific anyway
00:07 < kanzure> but i have many papers here on related subjects http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/
00:07 < Taek> for example, better salaries
00:07 < Taek> is there a shortlist somewhere? lol
00:07 < kanzure> don't be lazy
00:08 < kanzure> as for disease resistance, you can "train" immune systems with antibodies and antigens and samples
00:10 < Taek> I was more thinking along the lines of heart conditions, brain conditions, etc. All dependent to some degree on the environment, but also dependent on genetic factors
00:10 < kanzure> for intelligence correlation i have recently been fascinated by http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/human_chimpanzee_brain_differences.png
00:12 < kanzure> if there was a good "intelligence test" that could be automated, many other very hard problems in science will become dramatically easier
00:12  * kanzure sleeps
--- Log opened Sat Apr 18 04:16:23 2015
04:16 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@unaffiliated/kanzure/bot/gnusha] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:16 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church
04:16 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Mon Mar 23 17:39:20 2015]
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05:51 < kanzure> 4 hour gap in the logs: http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-04-18.log
05:52 < kanzure> Taek: if you said anything else, i didn't see
05:59 < kanzure> huh "In a study of the head growth of 633 term-born children from the Avon Longitudinal Study of Parents and Children cohort, it was shown that prenatal growth and growth during infancy were associated with subsequent IQ. The study’s conclusion was that the brain volume a child achieves by the age of 1 year helps determine later intelligence. Growth in brain volume after infancy may not compensate for poorer earlier growth.[40]"
06:06 < CaptHindsight> kanzure: hi, the point I was trying to make yesterday about patents in the west is that many of the devices on you list aren't that difficult to develop...
06:06 < CaptHindsight> the problem is that it's difficult to sell them in the west due to all the overlapping patents
06:07 < CaptHindsight> but they can be manufactured in China
06:08 < CaptHindsight> and yes, China has their own patent system, but it's also very flexible
06:08 < kanzure> i agree that these devices are not difficult
06:09 < kanzure> have i ever shown you my patent reform idea https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openmanufacturing/vS4ju1VqXb0
06:09 < kanzure> whoops i mean https://groups.google.com/d/msg/openmanufacturing/vS4ju1VqXb0/jD_TZ8U47b4J
06:09 < CaptHindsight> for example, a DNA sequencer that produces accurate results in minutes or hours would not be blocked by their government
06:12 < CaptHindsight> the US patent system is the best that money can buy, same for the legislature
06:15 < kanzure> that's nonsense, i can imagine much better and much worse systems on almost all of its dimensions
06:17 < CaptHindsight> as I can, but the groups that fund it also don't cooperate with each other
06:17 < FourFire> what kanzure said.
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06:29 < CaptHindsight> well since the patent system here won't be reformed anytime soon I'm happy to help with some of the wanted devices, but you'll either have to purchase them from China or follows the plans and build them your self
06:31 < kanzure> yep exactly
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07:33 < cluckj> kanzure, is there a good pirate ebook site?
07:35 < kanzure> libgen
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07:38 < cluckj> thanks
07:38 < cluckj> a lot
07:38 < cluckj> seriously
07:38 < cluckj> I'm dying here without access to a research library
07:39 < kanzure> libgen's like the only thing we talk about in here, how have you never seen it? O_o
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07:43 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
07:45 < cluckj> I don't even know
07:55 < kanzure> hmm susceptibility to ultrasound neural stimulation would be another good selective breeding project. since cells are already partially responsive.
07:56 < FourFire> ooh
07:58 < cluckj> not a lot of my kind of stuff in libgen :\
08:09 < kanzure> .title http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/276/1654/31
08:09 < yoleaux> The evolution of superstitious and superstition-like behaviour | Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences
08:09 < kanzure> "Superstitious behaviours, which arise through the incorrect assignment of cause and effect, receive considerable attention in psychology and popular culture. Perhaps owing to their seeming irrationality, however, they receive little attention in evolutionary biology. Here we develop a simple model to define the condition under which natural selection will favour assigning causality between two events. This leads to an intuitive ...
08:10 < kanzure> ... inequality—akin to an amalgam of Hamilton's rule and Pascal's wager—-that shows that natural selection can favour strategies that lead to frequent errors in assessment as long as the occasional correct response carries a large fitness benefit. It follows that incorrect responses are the most common when the probability that two events are really associated is low to moderate: very strong associations are rarely incorrect, while ...
08:10 < kanzure> ... natural selection will rarely favour making very weak associations. Extending the model to include multiple events identifies conditions under which natural selection can favour associating events that are never causally related. Specifically, limitations on assigning causal probabilities to pairs of events can favour strategies that lump non-causal associations with causal ones. We conclude that behaviours which are, or appear, ...
08:10 < kanzure> ... superstitious are an inevitable feature of adaptive behaviour in all organisms, including ourselves."
08:19 < adlai> paperbot http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(14)00005-1/fulltext
08:19 < adlai> paperbot: http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(14)00005-1/fulltext
08:19 < cluckj> I need to update my kindle D:
08:19 < cluckj> RIP paperbot
08:20 < adlai> that one is about pointless rituals reinforcing group cohesion
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08:24 < kanzure> so on that note (of superstitious behavior in evolutionary history), i suspect that (a wide variety of unique and specific) ritualistic superstititous behavior chains are a good proxy for measuring intelligence or memory or something
08:24 < cluckj> group cohesion is pretty important
08:24 < kanzure> or rather, the depth of the ritualistic behavior chain is the proxy measurement to look for
08:25 < kanzure> (and the diversity or the count of the unique ritualistic behaviors and their depth, of course) (or variations of combinations) (not sure which one should be a priority)
08:26 < kanzure> show me an animal that has 500 unique, long multi-step ritualistic behaviors that is not considered intelligent
08:26 < kanzure> oh wait. computers.
08:27 < kanzure> i don't know how to reconcile that
08:27 < cluckj> they're not animals
08:27 < kanzure> yeah but that's racist
08:27 < kanzure> ..right?
08:27 < cluckj> lol
08:28 < cluckj> robots don't have feelings
08:28 < kanzure> why would that matter?
08:28 < fenn> the correct response is "only if you consider computers a race"
08:29 < cluckj> only if computers consider themselves a race
08:29 < kanzure> i am confused, am i the computer here?
08:30 < fenn> no
08:30 < kanzure> anyway my point is that computers are very good at storing many sequences of extremely ritualistic behaior
08:30 < kanzure> *behavior
08:31 < kanzure> and yet they don't qualify, so therefore my definition above is either wrong or missing something
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08:32 < fenn> memory is a good proxy for intelligence
08:32 < fenn> but not in computers
08:32 < kanzure> fenn: context is http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/276/1654/31
08:34 < fenn> guh this is exactly what i was talking about with steve last night
08:35 < kanzure> good, you're prepared then
08:35 < fenn> can i skip this class
08:36 < kanzure> maybe, although i'd appreciate a hint about the difference between tape memory and superstitious behavior
08:36 < kanzure> or superstitious non-intelligence intelligence... i dunno what that is.
08:37 < fenn> a book has memory but doesn't actively predict events
08:37 < cluckj> superstitious behavior has rituals associated with it
08:37 < cluckj> like...non-functional rituals
08:37 < cluckj> a computer would have functional riturals
08:37 < cluckj> err rituals
08:38 < kanzure> fenn: but we have various software that is supposed to spit out predictions, right?
08:38 < fenn> a machine learning system that estimates the likelihood of events and acts on them probably counts as intelligent
08:38 < cluckj> there's no computer equivalent of throwing some salt over its shoulder when it spills some
08:38 < fenn> yes there is, there's tons of model overfitting
08:39 < fenn> the salt thing is socially learned though
08:39 < fenn> computers don't teach each other (yet)
08:39 < cluckj> what I mean is that the rituals a computer does are meaningless to the computer, but full of meaning to a human that does them
08:40 < kanzure> no vitalism
08:40 < fenn> kanzure: memory is not intelligence, they're different things. they're correlated in animals to some extent, so you can use one as a proxy for the other
08:40 < cluckj> the model overfitting is functional and meaningful, but superstitious rituals are non-functional and meaningful
08:40 < fenn> model overfitting is non-functional
08:40 < fenn> otherwise it wouldn't be *over*-fitting
08:41 < kanzure> cluckj: the specific claim is that the rituals are functionally relevant because they are used when it provides a fitness benefit, but also when it's harmless (perhaps more when it's harmless, but at least once when it provides a fitness benefit)
08:41 < kanzure> *but at least once when it provides a fitness benefit
08:43 < cluckj> are the rituals being done specifically to increase fitness?
08:43 < kanzure> no the animals are just nervous/anxious and doing stuff because they are either bored out of their mind or don't have anything else to do
08:44 < fenn> huh? the rituals are being done to increase fitness
08:44 < fenn> you're sick, pray to $deity
08:44 < kanzure> praying to the sky god does not necessa--
08:44 < kanzure> ok right
08:44 < cluckj> hah
08:45 < cluckj> or you're sick, eat some vitamin C
08:45 < fenn> not sure if the placebo effect counts as a ritual
08:46 < fenn> i think the authors gloss over a lot of important stuff about in-group association and imprinting
08:46 < cluckj> I guess I should actually look at the article before talking shit
08:46 < fenn> (or rather, not mention any of it)
08:46 < kanzure> specificaly, the claim is that computers/software presently do not qualify because...? small behavior repertoire? there's never been a signal correlation software that selects behavior (unlikely)?
08:47 < cluckj> :)
08:47 < fenn> because memory and intelligence are not correlated in computers?
08:48 < kanzure> you can't ask me to consider reality god damn it
08:48 < fenn> well i'm not sure about it
08:49 < kanzure> i suppose it's missing the learning component
08:50 < kanzure> definitely no ability at self-regulation other than memory management and trying to not halt/crash
08:50 < cluckj> I have absolutely no idea what that article is trying to say.
08:51 < cluckj> maybe too much math
08:51 < kanzure> it's just saying "natural selection favors superstitions" or rather "a brain could not have popped out of existence with completely correct hypotheses about the world, but here's how a wrong prediction engine could have been adaptive"
08:51 < fenn> it's just saying that superstition is due to theoretically unresolvable errors in assignment, due to low signal to noise ratio
08:51 < fenn> assignment = your beliefs about causality
08:51 < cluckj> oh
08:52 < cluckj> well, duh?
08:52 < kanzure> i don't think it's just low signal/noise issues, it's also things like "before a brain can make correct assignments, it must (1) be able to make any assignment of any kind at all, and (2) have a propensity to make assignments, and (3) have a propensity to act on those assignments"
08:53 < fenn> "When a causal prior event is not perfectly predictive of a latter event, it will often be possible, with more information, to subdivide the prior event into occasions that are sometimes causal and some that are never causal. And with more information, one might go further and subdivide the former set, and so on. However, whenever an actor cannot fully dissect out the prior events that carry
08:53 < kanzure> and the thesis includes something like "superstitions are harmless beliefs that are sometimes adaptive"
08:53 < fenn> perfect causality, there will be a level at which they are forced to respond to an aggregate of causal and non-causal events, or not respond at all"
08:54 < fenn> and it's better to respond than not to respond, because if you don't respond you sometimes get eaten by a lion
08:55 < kanzure> i hate it when that happens
08:55 < fenn> pesky felines
08:57 < kanzure> it sounds like, given the other components the names or types of which i don't quite understand, that even a mostly wrong but eventful machine learning signal correlation thingy would technically work?
08:58 < kanzure> nevermind that's a non-statement
08:58 < kanzure> er one reason i went looking up superstitious beliefs in evolutionary biology was because i was wondering about using superstitious beliefs or rituals as a psychometric test
08:59 < fenn> whether a mostly wrong signal correlation would be helpful or not depends on the costs of acting in response to the signal vs not acting on it
08:59 < cluckj> you might want to look it up in anthropology instead of evolutionary biology?
08:59 < kanzure> why would anthropology have a thing about psychometric testing?
09:00 < cluckj> because rituals and beliefs?
09:01 < fenn> many rituals are framed as "tests" but are really designed to cause an imprinting or to (re)define one's sense of self
09:01 < fenn> sure, it's difficult to jump over a shark with a laser, but that's not the point
09:02 < fenn> you're now a shark-jumper
09:02 < kanzure> if there was an animal with maybe 100 different rituals similar to laser shark jumping, i'd consider that animal a priority for neuroscience investigation or something
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09:03 < kanzure> well even much fewer i guess
09:03 < kanzure> athough i don't really understand how bored hominids could only have one ritual.
09:03 < fenn> so any given human has practiced much less than 100 different rituals
09:03 < fenn> but all humans combined have millions of htem
09:04 < kanzure> "no way dude, we are the sky god clan, we can't kiss the dirt. gross."
09:04 < fenn> but all bird of paradise do the same hoppy dance
09:04 < cluckj> waaaay more than 100 rituals I'd say
09:04 < kanzure> well i may be using a less strict definition of ritual there. there's a tleast 100 behaviors that humans do that seem like rituals.
09:04 < fenn> uh. please define then
09:05 < kanzure> long sequence of behavior
09:06 < fenn> closing the bathroom door before you pee, is it a ritual?
09:06 < kanzure> going to a bathroom to pee is somewhat ritualistic
09:06 < fenn> eating with silverware and dishes, ritual?
09:07 < kanzure> there's definitely a lot of specific things going on there, like setup and teardown of dinner, how you eat, how you hold the forks, how you put food into your mandibles
09:07 < fenn> folding of napkins into penguin shapes, ritual?
09:07 < cluckj> non-verbal ways of constructing order and meaning out of a chaotic mess
09:08 < kanzure> yeah maybe my definition is too weak
09:08 < kanzure> or too broad
09:08 < kanzure> if you fold the napkin that way more than once or you do it rather frequently then yes that might qualify as a ritual
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09:08 < cluckj> having a napkin is ritualistic
09:09 < fenn> well i dont even know what it's called or how to fold it, but i've seen it done many times
09:09 < cluckj> you have made a thing that's made to wipe stuff up with
09:09 < kanzure> toilet paper?
09:10 < fenn> hmm... http://www.napkinfoldingguide.com/
09:10 < cluckj> yes
09:10 < fenn> i was thinking "the crown"
09:11 < cluckj> what shape you fold (or don't fold) a napkin in is ritualistic of a belief or value system
09:11 < kanzure> i guess i'm comparatively obsessive about that, http://images.dailystar-uk.co.uk/dynamic/1/photos/49000/84049.jpg
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09:11 < cluckj> not necessarily obsessive, but orderly
09:11 < fenn> .. a stack of paper napkins, why?
09:12 < kanzure> because i don't need to remember where i put the rest of the napkin
09:12 < kanzure> it's like feeder stock
09:12 < cluckj> having the napkin-folding ritual of making it flat and square is part of a meaning system that privledges order
09:12 < cluckj> (geometric order, I guess)
09:13 < fenn> or maybe they just stack well because they tile 3-space
09:13 < fenn> same reason everything else is square
09:13 < fenn> i don't think "having napkins" is a ritual
09:14 < cluckj> everything is square *here* because we value optimizing the filling of space
09:14 < fenn> oh god don't go all anthro-professor on me
09:14 < cluckj> fenn, it's an object that was made for a specific purpose in a cleanliness ritual
09:14 < cluckj> I can't help itttttttttt
09:15 < kanzure> cluckj: it would help if you could pretend it is a biology thing ("well spiders clearly aren't folding napkins, only humans") then fenn wont notice
09:15 < cluckj> lol
09:16 < fenn> i'm pretty sure that doing things in the world that have reliable functional outcomes (like getting food off your face) does not count as a ritual
09:16 < CaptHindsight> ritual, tradition or compulsive behavior?
09:16 < kanzure> i don't understand your shark jumper point
09:16 < fenn> jumping over a shark with a laser is pointless and dangerous and can have no other purpose than to signify group membership
09:17 < cluckj> fenn, needing to get food off your face during/after eating is part of a cleaning and eating ritual
09:17 < cluckj> like....it's good manners to keep your face clean
09:17 < cluckj> so you have a special tool to do it
09:17 < fenn> did we talk about frat hazing rituals in here before? i forget
09:18 < CaptHindsight> depending on the culture
09:18 < cluckj> CaptHindsight, yep
09:18 < CaptHindsight> how about belching for an example
09:18 < kanzure> so "spitting out responses to maybe-random events is adaptive in animals/intelligence, but not necessarily useful in computers"?
09:18 < CaptHindsight> loud vs silent
09:18 < kanzure> oh right i claimed that the learning component has been missing in computers
09:19 < fenn> cluckj: it's good manners to make sure your nails are pounded in all the way, so i have a special tool to do it
09:19 < fenn> it's good manners not to die in a fire, so i have a special tool to warn me of a fire
09:19 < CaptHindsight> do computers get bored? or seek stimulus
09:20 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: too vague, that's not meaningful
09:20 < kanzure> well, maybe not
09:20 < cluckj> fenn, "manners" isn't the right thing in those cases
09:20 < CaptHindsight> reasons for computers to spit out random responses
09:20 < fenn> kanzure there are computers that learn though
09:21 < kanzure> memory is not the same thing as learning
09:21 < kanzure> er... is it?
09:21 < fenn> it's probably important to distinguish learning computers from non-learning computers
09:21 < fenn> memory is not the same thing as learning
09:21 < fenn> learning involves generalization and model creation
09:22 < fenn> .wik learning
09:22 < yoleaux> "Learning is the act of acquiring new, or modifying and reinforcing, existing knowledge, behaviors, skills, values, or preferences and may involve synthesizing different types of information. The ability to learn is possessed by humans, animals and some machines. Progress over time tends to follow learning curves." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning
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09:22 < fenn> .wik memory
09:22 < yoleaux> "In psychology, memory is the process in which information is encoded, stored, and retrieved. Encoding allows information from the outside world to reach the five senses in the forms of chemical and physical stimuli. In this first stage the information must be changed so that it may be put into the encoding process." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory
09:23 < fenn> i think if your experience does not modify your behavior in any way, it doesn't count as learning
09:25 < kanzure> i was thinking of using ritual length, ritual variety, number of rituals, stimulus/response discrimination, as a psychometric test in animals for selective breeding of intelligence
09:25 < fenn> do you have animals that do rituals?
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09:26 < kanzure> and then i thought "oh i have a psychometric test, let me hook it up to some random number generator on a computer..." but i think this wont work (i'm still struggling to explain why)
09:26 < kanzure> yes dogs have rituals
09:26 < fenn> uh, like turning around three times before laying down?
09:26 < kanzure> and everyone likes to laugh at their dumb superstitious dogs
09:26 < fenn> kicking grass over their poo?
09:27 < kanzure> kicking grass over poo is more like an instinct (whatever the hell that is)
09:27 < fenn> i can't think of any dog rituals i guess
09:27 < kanzure> turning around three times is an okay example, but might also be instinct... maybe something more complex would be a better example.
09:28 < fenn> why not just select for performance on intelligence tests?
09:28 < kanzure> playing games is ritualistic
09:29 < kanzure> wasn't there all sorts of problems with those tests though
09:29 < kanzure> like, just because an octopus doesn't know how to read does not mean it is not intelligent
09:30 < fenn> most intelligence tests don't require knowledge of how to read
09:30 < fenn> being "knowledge-free" is pretty much a requirement for modern tests
09:30 < kanzure> does it require knowledge of how to select answers
09:31 < kanzure> or that answers exist
09:31 < kanzure> also, give me an actual example
09:31 < fenn> a maze, or putting pegs in holes, or picking the box with the treat hidden in it
09:34 < fenn> it doesn't require knowledge that answers exist, only a desire to get to the end and get the treat
09:35 < kanzure> er i am having troube finding data about human maze performance
09:35 < kanzure> surely someone has compared human maze performance with mouse maze performance
09:35 < CaptHindsight> fenn: how do those tests account for mood, exhaustion, how hungry you might be, how much you like cheese and the type of cheese?
09:35 < fenn> i don't care
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09:48 < cluckj> lol
09:48  * fenn performs the morning shower ritual
09:48 < cluckj> all rituals are behaviors, but not all behaviors are rituals
09:49  * cluckj just performed the morning shower ritual
09:51 < kanzure> sheena: tell us an elaborate dog ritual that dogs do?
09:52 < sheena> kanzure: is a ritual different from a fixed action pattern?
09:53 < kanzure> long chained behavior, might look or be superstitious
09:53 < kanzure> definitely not just a yawn or yelp
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09:54 < sheena> fixed action patterns are different then
09:54 < sheena> you're thinking of stuff like, when i let reiker in, and he checks if the bedroom door is open. if it is, he joyously bounds into the bedroom, gets up on the bed, gets down, check the window, then checks the chair.. and if i don't intervene, he'll then get up on the bed and lie down
09:54 < sheena> ?
09:55 < sheena> also i gotta go for a bit. ping me if oyu want me to follow up on this
09:55 < kanzure> does he do that exact order?
09:55 < sheena> every time
09:55 < kanzure> nice
09:55 < kanzure> yes that
09:55 < sheena> no idea if this is of interest here, but i made a thing cuase i was rustrated with there being no things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5TutKGCvLM   if you're gonna watch it, set it to like 2x speed for sure
09:55 < sheena> ttyl
09:56 < kanzure> use solidworks
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10:02 < Taek> my dog had a ritiual of drinking water whenever someone got home. He'd greet the person enthusiatically, drink water, and then greet the person a second time
10:02 < Taek> 9 times out of 10
10:02 < Taek> re: computers and rituals - the computers generally didn't design the rituals themselves
10:03 < Taek> an adaptive computer that's creating it's own rituals I would consider intellignet
10:19 < archels> hm, I'm getting a Tdiff of (47.5-1.3) = 46.2 °C running this 120W Peltier at 100W
10:19 < archels> preliminary tests have already indicated that stacking them will be a pain in the neck to get right
10:29 < kanzure> does stacking mean physical stacking
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10:32 < archels> yep
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11:24 < streety> Taek - no longer need to worry about holding it in with a walk imminent?
11:24 < streety> archels, what are you trying to cool?
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11:47 < kanzure> .title http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09515089.2011.579420#.VTKmtVIX3RY
11:47 < yoleaux> An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
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11:48 < kanzure> ("How convenient! The epistemic rationale of self-validating belief systems")
11:48 < kanzure> that's for cluckj, anyone else should avoid because they will burn alive after reading or something
11:48 < kanzure> ("This paper offers an epistemological discussion of self-validating belief systems and the recurrence of “epistemic defense mechanisms” and “immunizing strategies” across widely different domains of knowledge. We challenge the idea that typical “weird” belief systems are inherently fragile, and we argue that, instead, they exhibit a surprising degree of resilience in the face of adverse evidence and criticism. Borrowing from ...
11:49 < kanzure> ... the psychological research on belief perseverance, rationalization and motivated reasoning, we argue that the human mind is particularly susceptible to belief systems that are structurally self-validating.")
11:50 < kanzure> eh nevermind
11:51 < kanzure> "False memory susceptibility is correlated with [positive] categorisation ability in humans" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4168836.1/
11:51 < archels> streety: I'm trying to get down to -35 to make a cloud chamber
11:52 < kanzure> "people are more superstitious in bad times" makes sense; retreat to previous behavior routines.
11:52 < streety> I would guess the thermal load would be minimal
11:53 < nmz787> http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/How_convenient_The_epistemic_rationale_of_self-validating_belief_systems.pdf
11:53 < streety> I was wondering why you weren't going with a compressor based approach
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11:53 < kanzure> evolution of cognitive error http://www.artexperience.it/uploads/9/2/9/2/9292963/errormanagement_cognitiveconstraints_adaptivedecisionmakingbias.pdf
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11:57  * archels wonders how often nmz787 gets terrible submissions on takeitapart
11:57 < nmz787> archels: not much
11:58 < nmz787> I think we forgot something in implementing the site, as it hasn't drawn as much interest as we thought it might
11:59 < archels> I took some 5V adapters apart last night, submitted some photos but thought it was pretty terrible overall
12:00 < archels> in the process I figured you must get blurry phone pics and illegible guides on a regular basis
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12:04 < nmz787> oh the deal extreme adapters?
12:06 < delinquentme> rails IRC isnt as helpful as it used to b
12:13 < nmz787> I wish there were more documentaries on interesting things on netflix :/
12:13 < kanzure> you might enjoy "microcosm"
12:14 < kanzure> .g site:youtube.com microscosm
12:14 < yoleaux> https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=cyh0QJT0rAQ
12:14 < kanzure> .title
12:14 < yoleaux> Alle Kommentare zu Winter on Georgian Bay - YouTube
12:14 < kanzure> bah no
12:14 < nmz787> well like netflix has nothing on electron microscopes
12:15 < nmz787> why weren't those guys good enough for a documentary?
12:16 < kanzure> here, how about http://movies.nationalgeographic.com/movies/mysteries-of-the-unseen-world/photos/
12:16 < kanzure> oh, nevermind
12:17 < nmz787> .wik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hillier
12:17 < yoleaux> "James Hillier, OC (August 22, 1915 – January 15, 2007) was a Canadian-born scientist and inventor who designed and built, with Albert Prebus, the first successful high-resolution electron microscope in North America in 1938." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hillier
12:17 < nmz787> no documentaries
12:17 < delinquentme> http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/
12:17 < kanzure> he's not looking for top rated
12:17 < nmz787> top-rated would seem to be more enthralling
12:19 < delinquentme> hahah
12:19 < delinquentme> http://basicdocumetnaryfilms.com/
12:21 < nmz787> delinquentme: that website doesn't exist for me
12:21 < nmz787> :P
12:21 < delinquentme> have you tried ctrl + f5 ?
12:22 < delinquentme> DNS might be still being migrated
12:22 < delinquentme> I only made it 5 minutes ago
12:22 < nmz787> haha
12:23 < nmz787> delinquentme: did you register with the typo?
12:23 < delinquentme> crap !
12:23 < delinquentme> stupid copy paste
12:23 < delinquentme> what i get for disabling auto spell correct
12:24 < delinquentme> it messes w my trolling attempts
12:30 < archels> nmz787: oh, I have to get vetted again
12:30 < archels> (why do I need to get vetted 5 times?)
12:31 < delinquentme> archels, watchoo vetting?
12:31 < delinquentme> rabies?
12:31 < archels> thanks for passing it through anyway =)
12:31 < delinquentme> kanzure, help me sell shit to heal horse tendons
12:32 < delinquentme> and human testosterone
12:32 < archels> no no, I am being vetted—by nmz787's site
12:32 < nmz787> archels: one sec
12:32 < delinquentme> archels, just scream IM A FUCKING ROBOT
12:32 < delinquentme> that typically passes any / all IRL CAPTCHAS
12:32 < nmz787> archels: did you change something?
12:32 < nmz787> archels: or add another?
12:32 < archels> I changed something
12:32 < kanzure> are you worried your users are faking pictures? or what
12:33 < kanzure> "HEY that picture of your supercollider is obviously photoshopped i can tell by the pixels"
12:33 < nmz787> archels: k
12:33 < nmz787> obv we need a diff for things that have changed
12:34 < nmz787> after the other guys scaled to using docker for different components I totally lost ability to get on and debug or add new features :/
12:35 < delinquentme> nmz787, takeitapart?
12:35 < nmz787> sorry I just can't do sysadmin /and/ analog electronics
12:35 < nmz787> delinquentme: yea
12:35 < delinquentme> kanzure, why you shopping colliders ? we got one IRL
12:35 < nmz787> kanzure: it was just a filter for new users... as archels said it's for the first 5 submissions
12:36 < nmz787> since we planned originally to give the users a share of the ad-clicks that showed up on their guides
12:36 < kanzure> first five? brutal
12:36 < kanzure> giving users a share of ad click revenue is against the terms of like every major ad network
12:36 < nmz787> huh
12:36 < nmz787> really?
12:36 < archels> haha
12:36 < nmz787> that's unexpected
12:37 < nmz787> we figured it would only encourage good content to be posted
12:37 < nmz787> giving them incentive to clean up their own guides
12:37 < archels> nmz787: I might have added some more detail later, but this is making me feel kindof unwelcome
12:37 < kanzure> yes, but that's not what their concern is
12:37 < archels> you've verified that I'm a human being, no?
12:37 < nmz787> archels: the submission block?
12:37 < nmz787> mmm, yes
12:37 < nmz787> there may be a way for me to remvoe it without touching the database directly
12:37 < nmz787> one sec
12:38 < kanzure> ... live changes to production. tsk tsk.
12:39 < nmz787> archels: all I can say it so modify it, i'll approve, mod, i'll approve, until we get to 5 times
12:39 < nmz787> s/say it so/say is to/
12:41 < archels> don't worry about it, I meant it more as a general site comment, on behalf of all current and future users
12:41 < archels> maybe if there's a 5 in the code somewhere you could change it to a 1
12:42 < nmz787> yeah I think that's all it is
12:46 < kanzure> you could do sms verification
12:46 < kanzure> as a cheat
12:55 < streety> does any site have a two track approach to approval "you're in a queue for manual review, if you want instant approval answer this CAPTCHA/enter your phone number for sms verification"?
12:56 < kanzure> no they usually never tell you about manual review
12:56 < kanzure> that's leaking too many details
12:57 < streety> if your post/submisson isn't showing up isn't it kind of implied?
13:04 < nmz787> is there some software like an image gallery where you can mark images as you go through the directory that is loaded... and at the end have the ones you marked moved to a sub-dir?
13:05 < nmz787> I'm sure I can make something like this with python and tk in an hour or so... but I need to go hiking
13:08 < streety> can't you do that with any file manager? select the ones you want and then drag to a folder or ctrl-x, ctrl-v?
13:11 < nmz787> well but I can't zoom in and out easily there
13:11 < nmz787> and you forgot 2 alt-tab operations
13:12 < nmz787> i want to hit the right button on my kb, hit spacebar to select the image... mouse wheel to zoom
13:12 < streety> I'm not sure I ever knew about an alt-tab option
13:12 < nmz787> and I guess when zoomed, the up down right left become navigation around the image, rather than moving from one image to another
13:13 < nmz787> you haven't known about alt-tab?
13:13 < streety> for moving files? I don't think so
13:14 < nmz787> no switching windows
13:14 < nmz787> between the source and target directories, etc
13:14 < streety> ah gotcha
13:15 < nmz787> really I should implement this for the takeitapart upload page
13:15 < nmz787> client-side
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15:39 < cluckj> kanzure, that paper had me at "weird beliefs"
15:42 < cluckj> the don quixote bit on p. 348 is really nice
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17:43 < Taek> http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10802-015-0011-1
17:44 < Taek> "Excess gross motor activity (hyperactivity) is considered a core diagnostic feature of childhood ADHD that impedes learning. This view has been challenged, however, by recent models that conceptualize excess motor activity as a compensatory mechanism that facilitates neurocognitive functioning in children with ADHD."
17:47 < kanzure> "impedes learning" they mean classroom behavior
17:48 < Taek> hmm. My interpretation of "excess gross motor activity" included things like shaking the leg, rocking back and forth, etc
17:49 < Taek> and not necessarily things that would disrupt classroom learning
17:49 < kanzure> uh, to my knowledge nobody ever thought that stims were impeding learning
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17:49 < Taek> you would know better than I
17:49 < kanzure> Taek: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Intense%20world%20syndrome%20-%20an%20alternative%20hypothesis%20for%20autism%20-%20Markram.pdf
17:51 < kanzure> also, something about not being addicted to boredom
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17:53 < kanzure> yeah as far as i know nobody has ever seriously considered motor activity as something that impedes learning... it's like saying you can't learn while writing.
17:57 < Taek> I find it interesting nonetheless that for ADHD kids, motor activity helped while for "traditional development" kids, motor activity hurt.
17:58 < Taek> " Analysis of the relations among intra-individual changes in observed activity level, attention, and performance revealed that higher rates of activity level predicted significantly better, but not normalized WM performance for children with ADHD. Conversely, higher rates of activity level predicted somewhat lower WM performance for TD children. "
17:59 < kanzure> here is some stuff on working memory http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/working-memory/
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18:28 < kanzure> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3886488/ "Nobel Peace Prize nominees David Matas and David Kilgour investigate the organ harvesting trade in China" (negative)
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18:57 < kanzure> 18:55 <+xentrac> so I was just thinking about how my city is annoyingly polluted
18:57 < kanzure> 18:56 <+kanzure> replace the atmosphere with a substitute
18:57 < kanzure> 18:57 <+xentrac> right
19:05 < gene_hacker> well it is pretty impractical to wear a gasmask everywhere
19:06 < kanzure> 19:02 <+kanzure> you could do beamshaping of oxygen jetstreams through the atmosphere focused at individual people
19:06 < kanzure> 19:02 <+kanzure> on-demand delivery of oxygen per breath
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19:13 < gene_hacker> yeah good luck with that
19:14 < kanzure> pfft you're one to speak, how's your nanotech palace coming along
19:14 < kanzure> (no really, sup?)
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19:15 < jrayhawk_> i think his nanotech palace just ate him
19:15 < kanzure> the guy can't take a joke
19:15 < jrayhawk_> i expect an earthquake will come and my CRT palace will do the same
19:16 < kanzure> no your crt palace will protect you because you're stuck in the 90s
19:16 < kanzure> computronium didn't exist back then
19:16 < kanzure> you're safe
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19:35 < kanzure> .title http://chapters.marssociety.org/usa/oh/aero5.htm
19:35 < yoleaux> MEDICAL EMERGENCIES IN SPACE
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21:13 < kanzure> i wonder if vials marked "DNA EVIDENCE" left at crime scenes would be enough for "reasonable doubt"
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21:14 < andytoshi> kanzure: i'd expect actual bags to have serial numbers
21:14 < kanzure> bags?
21:14 < andytoshi> vials
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22:00 < Taek> :q
22:00 < Taek> whoops
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--- Log closed Sun Apr 19 00:00:06 2015