--- Log opened Wed Apr 22 00:00:29 2015
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00:29 < FourFire> kanzure: does Temple Grandin still work in the field?
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00:48 < kanzure> dunno
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02:24 < nsh> anyone done any SMT or otherwise constrain solving stuff
02:24 < nsh> ?
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03:02 < archels> conclusion about NeuroML(2)/LEMS: it's a goddamn mess
03:02 < archels> moving on to NineML
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03:38 < archels> oh right, and there's SpineML too, which is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike NineML
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04:11 < archels> neat, v1.0 of the spec just came out 5 days ago  http://tclose.github.io/nineml//9ML/1.0/NineML_v1.0.pdf
04:19 < archels> I think this release outmodes SpineML
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06:49 < kanzure> archels: perhaps avoid things that are based on markup languages
06:50 < kanzure> there is a workshop called, "Jumping the Paywall: How to freely share research without being arrested."
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07:19 < archels> kanzure: but then how am I to specify my models?
07:19 < archels> ("procedurally" being one obvious answer, but that's not very interchangeable)
07:41 < archels> uh so then apparently there is the approach of doing some magic on an xslt file to turn an xml directly into a bunch of C++ classes
07:41 < kanzure> i think you mean an xsd file not xslt
07:43 < archels> hmm this webpage says "XSLT scripts"  http://bimpa.group.shef.ac.uk/SpineML/index.php/Brahms
07:43 < kanzure> you can use stuff like jaxb to generate classes from xsd files
07:44 < kanzure> also pyxb
07:44 < archels> it feels dirty somehow
07:44 < kanzure> correct
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07:59 < kanzure> http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2015/04/joining-mit-media-lab-digital-currency.html
07:59 < FourFire> kanzure: how much does it cost to attend this workshop and where is it?
07:59 < kanzure> no idea
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08:53 < kanzure> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/color-changing-flowers
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13:18 < nmz787_i> .title http://hackaday.com/2015/04/22/a-diy-fourier-transform-spectrometer/
13:18 < yoleaux> A DIY Fourier Transform Spectrometer | Hackaday
13:18 < nmz787_i> looks like they used a piezo rather than a voice coil
13:22 < chris_99> oh i saw that i need to read through it
13:25 < nmz787_i> I should video record the FTIR I have while it moves its voice coil
13:25 < nmz787_i> it's pretty cool to watch
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13:28 < chris_99> you tried the blue spectrometer yet btw?
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13:41 < kanzure> the mantis shrimp would be a good mascot for a spectrophotometer
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14:17 < FourFire> ye
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14:24 < kanzure> .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1502.07373
14:24 < yoleaux> [1502.07373] The Spy in the Sandbox -- Practical Cache Attacks in Javascript
14:24 < kanzure> n/win 6
14:24 < kanzure> fiewqjfqi
14:36 < nmz787_i> chris_99: not yet... been in between too many things lately, moving this week :(
14:37 < chris_99> oh got the SEM also?
14:44 < nmz787_i> still at the sellers, but moving that either Friday or early next week, then I'll at least start to take photos while I do my initial poking around
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14:53 < chris_99> cool
14:57 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1zx7ZacM48
14:57 < yoleaux> Dethklok - Impeach God music video - YouTube
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15:12 < catern> *impeaching* god is a little peaceful and ruleabiding for a band called dethklok
15:16 < kanzure> deep down inside they are softies
15:26 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkn7HGvZP_4
15:26 < yoleaux> Dethklok - Dethalbum III - Biological Warfare [HD, with lyrics] - YouTube
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16:01 < Adlai> lbu30
16:01 < kanzure> hm?
16:04 < Adlai> call it a typo
16:04 < kanzure> password confirmed
16:04 < Adlai> shitshitshit
16:04 < kanzure> password confirmed
16:04 < Adlai> life will suck once MRI resolution reaches password parity, or worse, privkey
16:05  * Adlai wonders what transhumanist steganography looks like
16:05 < kanzure> you'll have to keep your emulation hardware hidden somewhere
16:05 < Adlai> disguise it as javascript
16:05 < kanzure> and also make sure you don't leak infrared
16:05 < kanzure> no i mean like in a mountain
16:05 < Adlai> aha
16:06 < kanzure> or bottom of the ocean
16:06 < kanzure> that sort of thing
16:06 < Adlai> so a planet can support how many mutually antagonistic informational beings? a few dozen ?
16:06 < Adlai> there must be a better approach
16:06 < kanzure> well you could always blow up the planet
16:06 < kanzure> if that's what you're looking for
16:07  * Adlai greps the reading list for homomorphic encryption
16:07 < Adlai> er, sorry. call that a think-o
16:07 < Adlai> full-program obfuscation maybe?
16:07 < kanzure> emulations will probably be somewhat interested in verifyable execution
16:07 < Adlai> https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/779.pdf
16:07 < kanzure> but really you don't want to be running on someone's "cloud" while thinking about anything remtely private
16:08 < kanzure> *remotely
16:08 < kanzure> s/thinking/knowing
16:09 < Adlai> thank you for that wonderful perspective... casting off the mother of all burkas gradually turns a planet to a cloud. singular.
16:10 < kanzure> insecure emulations are in danger of being sweeped together into the same emulation by malware or adversaries, or deleted all at once or crashed through other nefarious means
16:11 < kanzure> biological cells are a good example of making trade-offs for which parts are vitamin parts versus which parts are self-manufactured from components laying around
16:12 < kanzure> usually with attempted boundaries during reproduction/replication so that other genetic material can't hijack the substantial resource investment required for replication
16:12  * Adlai wonders what peer-review that trade-off has seen in the past 3.5BYA
16:12 < kanzure> (in ai/emulation terms that is going to mean verifiable hardware, chip fabrication, power stations, etc.)
16:13 < kanzure> well different cells make that trade-off differently
16:13 < kanzure> or rather, different organisms
16:29 < kanzure> http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/education/239435-scientific-publishing-policy-should-be-based-on-facts-not
16:31 < kanzure> hahaa "Two recently introduced bills, the Fair Access to Science and Technology Research Act (FASTR) and the Public Access to Public Science Act (PAPS) would do just that, undermining this country’s global leadership in scientific publishing. How? Both set arbitrary and ill-considered post-publication embargo periods, between six and twelve months, after which scholarly articles reporting on federally funded research must be given away ...
16:31 < kanzure> ... for free. These embargoes are too short for publishers in many disciplines to recover costs for the substantial investments they make to ensure the wide availability and integrity of articles that report on research. "
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17:00 < kanzure> .title https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12784
17:00 < yoleaux> SparkFun ToF Range Finder Breakout - VL6180 - SEN-12784 - SparkFun Electronics
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17:07 < kanzure> "Vestibular stimulation reduces unrealistic optimism" http://precedings.nature.com/documents/4519/version/1/files/npre20104519-1.pdf
17:07 < kanzure> but... i want more optimism.
17:07 < kanzure> " but the gist is if you squirt cold water in your left ear"
17:13 < nmz787_i> kanzure: that sensor is what chris_99 was playing with and got onto hackaday for
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17:13 < kanzure> "Post-hoc tests using the Bonferroni correction revealed that, compared to baseline, average risk estimates were significantly higher during left-ear CI (p = .016), whereas they remained unchanged during right-ear CI (p = .476). Unrealistic optimism was thus reduced selectively during left-ear stimulation."
17:14 < kanzure> "I want to make an array of them with a spinning faceted mirror"
17:14 < kanzure> "and try to make a 2d laser scanner"
17:14 < kanzure> "for rapid mapping by drones"
17:15 < fenn> is that vestibular thing fo realz?
17:17 < fenn> hmm somehow they're detecting that i'm using wget
17:17 < kanzure> --user-agent="blah"
17:17 < fenn> nup
17:18 < kanzure> "also I think it might not be super useful if you don't have many biases to begin with pertaining to what you're trying to make decisions on"
17:18 < kanzure> "but it'd be a useful technique for changing the minds of less rational individuals"
17:18 < kanzure> hah
17:18 < fenn> how can someone be so deluded as to think they don't have biases
17:19 < kanzure> that's why i only punch up... wait.. i mean down?
17:19 < fenn> your faux SJW rhetoric is triggering me
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17:20 < fenn> "left ear caloric irrigation" sounds unpleasant
17:20 < ForrestFlanagan> it's not so bad
17:21 < fenn> hey old timer
17:21 < ForrestFlanagan> it's dizzying, but not barfy, at least for me
17:22 < ForrestFlanagan> I think it's useful if you want to confirm your thinking on something critical that you think you might have biases about
17:22 < ForrestFlanagan> but it's probably more useful for reverse interrogating less rational people
17:23 < ForrestFlanagan> hey fenn, ever find anything that works well for automatically tracking sleep/wake?
17:24 < ForrestFlanagan> like a wearable, or a phisiological thing that a camera could observe?
17:24 < fenn> uh.. there are a zillion consumer products for that now
17:24 < fenn> but "works well"? i dunno, never tried any
17:24 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah that's what I was digging for
17:25 < ForrestFlanagan> I tend to just drift off lately
17:26 < fenn> accelerometer + heart rate should be reasonably accurate i would think
17:26 < ForrestFlanagan> I was questioning if heart rate was a good enough indicator
17:26 < fenn> there are various fitness bracelets that do this now
17:26 < fenn> you'd probably want something that could also measure heart rate variability
17:27 < ForrestFlanagan> if it is good enough it sounds like a job for a dedicated camera above the bed and eulerian video amplification
17:27 < fenn> to measure heart beats?
17:27 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah
17:27 < ForrestFlanagan> just amplify color
17:27 < fenn> hm ok
17:28 < fenn> i'm usually under a blanket when i sleep
17:28 < ForrestFlanagan> a lot of synthetic fabrics are at least IR transparent
17:29 < ForrestFlanagan> not sure how heartbeat would show up though
17:29 < fenn> a long time ago at a qs meetup some guy demoed his system which was an air mattress with a microphone stuck into the inflation port to sense vibrations... he could reliably pick up invidivual heart beats, movements, and breathing
17:29 < ForrestFlanagan> oh, that works
17:29 < ForrestFlanagan> I just don't like air mattresses
17:29 < ForrestFlanagan> also cats
17:29 < ForrestFlanagan> would pop them
17:30 < fenn> you don't like cats? or the cats don't like air mattressess? or both?
17:30 < ForrestFlanagan> pretty cool though
17:30 < ForrestFlanagan> just the middle one
17:30 < ForrestFlanagan> I was thinking along those lines
17:31 < ForrestFlanagan> I was looking at this mems barometer part with onboard I2C and 24 bit AD converter
17:31 < fenn> that's a lot of bits
17:31 < ForrestFlanagan> and thermometer
17:31 < fenn> .wa 2^24
17:32 < yoleaux> 2²⁴: 16777216; Scientific notation: 1.6777216 × 10⁷; Number name: 16 million 777 thousand 216; Number line: http://is.gd/Qkn1um; Number length: 8 decimal digits
17:32 < ForrestFlanagan> it's accurate enough you can calculate altitude, onboard, with better than 1ocm stability
17:32 < ForrestFlanagan> 10cm
17:32 < ForrestFlanagan> that like, you could tell what step you were on in a building, and whether or not you were crouching
17:33 < ForrestFlanagan> but the AD is delta sigma, so it's balls slow
17:33 < fenn> something like that
17:33 < fenn> gps gives you actual altitude
17:33 < fenn> but it turns out air pressure is all over the place at any given altitude
17:34 < ForrestFlanagan> it's more than good enough for indoor mapping
17:34 < nmz787_i> ForrestFlanagan: I just saw this earlier https://www.mybasis.com/
17:34 < nmz787_i> "THE ULTIMATE FITNESS AND SLEEP TRACKER"
17:35 < nmz787_i> http://www.mybasis.com/blog/2014/03/basis-health-tracker-acquired-by-intel/
17:35 < nmz787_i> I might be able to test one
17:35 < fenn> wut
17:35 < fenn> they barely even had a product out before they were acquired?
17:36 < kanzure> it's because intel wants in on healthcare money
17:36 < kanzure> they have made related acquisitions recently
17:36 < ForrestFlanagan> interesting
17:37 < ForrestFlanagan> oh, so reason I wanted to play with crazy barometer
17:37 < ForrestFlanagan> I wanted to couple it with a capillary tube full of transmission fluid
17:37 < ForrestFlanagan> then embed that in concrete
17:38 < ForrestFlanagan> then get a bunch of them and do footstep triangulation stuff
17:38 < ForrestFlanagan> for home automation, gait distinguishment, security, etc
17:39 < ForrestFlanagan> but delta sigma is too slow, and I can't find a better solution made by anyone yet
17:39 < fenn> do you really need all 24 bits or just the least significant nibble?
17:39 < ForrestFlanagan> the nibble, really
17:40 < ForrestFlanagan> er, probably a full byte off the least significant side would do
17:40 < fenn> so, uh, is it possible to just read the least significant nibble and then start a new sample?
17:40 < ForrestFlanagan> nah, it's too integrated
17:41 < fenn> what if you had an analog sensor
17:41 < ForrestFlanagan> the integrated solutions are required for that much accuracy
17:41 < ForrestFlanagan> it'd be below the noise floor otherwise
17:41 < fenn> time of flight seems more useful for triangulation anyway
17:42 < ForrestFlanagan> the future will bring better integrated solutions
17:42 < fenn> except concrete is a terrible transmission medium (high damping coefficient because it's made of different matierials)
17:42 < ForrestFlanagan> this one would be great if it were just more configurable
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17:43  * fenn mumbles something about ghost in the shell
17:43 < ForrestFlanagan> oh, you mean the tensile components?
17:43 < fenn> it's got sand and granite rocks and portlant cement and air bubbles and rebar
17:44 < fenn> great for making machine tools out of though :)
17:44 < ForrestFlanagan> I was hoping to fine tune the rheological characteristics by playing chemistry set with transmission fluid
17:45 < ForrestFlanagan> it's possible this might just work on specialized portland cement
17:45 < ForrestFlanagan> concrete machine tools.. that's pretty cool sounding
17:45 < ForrestFlanagan> not my focus atm though
17:45 < ForrestFlanagan> hahaha
17:46 < fenn> would capacitive sensing work for the gait stuff?
17:46 < ForrestFlanagan> what if I fine tuned the rheology to dirt in an area
17:46 < ForrestFlanagan> then just drone=dropped these things like little solar garden lights with mesh radios
17:47 < fenn> thumpers
17:47 < ForrestFlanagan> the resolution would suffer, sure
17:47 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/CLgnpb1XmW4
17:47 < yoleaux> Dune: Extend Scene: Stilgar Explains Sandworm Riding - YouTube
17:47 < ForrestFlanagan> but seismometry over a large area could be really useful for security
17:49 < ForrestFlanagan> like it'd be a good way to cover a major acreage
17:49 < fenn> wrong video nevermind
17:50 < Adlai> this seems like exactly the right video, i'll mind it
17:50 < ForrestFlanagan> loudspeaker drone flies out to triangulation of human footsteps "I'mma give you count three to get offa' my property"
17:51 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/NrG4g6yNLJU
17:51 < yoleaux> Dune - Shai Hulud - David Lynch - YouTube
17:53 < fenn> i always feel sorry for the worm
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17:54 < kanzure> snails and slugs are pretty smart, considering they only have 10k neurons
17:54 < fenn> also, bees care
17:54 < kanzure> their social behavior is also a little suspicious
17:55 < kanzure> bees have far more
17:55 < fenn> but only if they can smell the pain
17:55 < kanzure> hm?
17:55 < fenn> bees will attack if you have squished bee juice on you
17:56 < fenn> or hurt bee pheremone, really
17:56 < kanzure> according to the quote above (from yesterday), no
17:56 < fenn> yeah i think that's wrong
17:56 < fenn> maybe his bees were sociopaths
17:56 < fenn> bred by nazi eugenics programs
17:56 < kanzure> even a sociopath knows when to run
17:57 < fenn> ok maybe they were just stupid then
17:57 < fenn> there is a serious bee problem though, and it seems to be remedied by outbreeding with the african bees
17:57 < ForrestFlanagan> if the bee juice thing is true that would be really exploitable
17:58 < fenn> "don't move or i'll summon a swarm of bees!"
17:58 < kanzure> attach bee hive under drone
17:58 < kanzure> simple
17:58 < fenn> is there a pokemon bee that stings once and then just dies?
17:59 < kanzure> nah
18:01 < kanzure> i think slugs have to be smart otherwise they backtrack and die
18:01 < kanzure> very strong constraints regarding dehydration
18:02 < fenn> not backtracking is simple
18:02 < ForrestFlanagan> have you seen those trails?
18:03 < ForrestFlanagan> I've seen them like just make knots
18:03 < ForrestFlanagan> I mean the trail is right there you can avoid running in frantic circles
18:04 < fenn> i wonder how to make a seismometer that could survive being fired out of a gun
18:04 < fenn> maybe you could just fill it with (dry) ice
18:05 < ForrestFlanagan> I think the barometer and tube thing would work
18:05 < ForrestFlanagan> I've fired some fragile crap out of a shotgun
18:05 < ForrestFlanagan> works fine
18:05 < fenn> then to set up a perimeter you just shoot lawn-dart thingies in a circle around
18:06 < fenn> i must have seen this somewhere before
18:08 < ForrestFlanagan> heh, that'd be awesome
18:08 < fenn> mothballs take a long time to sublimate
18:08 < ForrestFlanagan> oh
18:08 < fenn> what sublimates and is more volatile than mothballs but lower vapor pressure than CO2?
18:09 < ForrestFlanagan> and if you wanted a really large denial area, there could be triangulation based on seismometers and an AGL
18:09 < fenn> AGL?
18:10 < fenn> lidar?
18:10 < ForrestFlanagan> it's like a green minefield
18:10 < ForrestFlanagan> Automatic Grenade launcher
18:10 < fenn> oh
18:10 < ForrestFlanagan> with smart fuses, for airburst capability
18:11 < ForrestFlanagan> could probably mortar like a kilometer radius and just airburst non-lethal rounds to incapacitate
18:12 < ForrestFlanagan> essentially just drop a CS/Flashbang/Rubber combo every few minutes until someone can drive out to figure out wtf
18:12 < fenn> i'd be more interested in doing reconaissance _before_ dropping grenades on whatever it was
18:13 < ForrestFlanagan> well sure, that's what cooled infrared cams are for
18:13 < fenn> this sounds like a fun extreme sport
18:14 < ForrestFlanagan> heh, two way radio from the AGL
18:14 < fenn> i used to make crap like this for paintball games, back before people decided the game had actual rules
18:15 < ForrestFlanagan> hahaha, I'd love that
18:15 < ForrestFlanagan> that always killed me about robot battles too
18:16 < ForrestFlanagan> all the cool useful innovative stuff is banned
18:16 < fenn> yeah now it's all just wedges and spinners
18:16 < ForrestFlanagan> so it's just a boring game of wedges vs spinners
18:16 < ForrestFlanagan> HA
18:16 < fenn> no jamming, no thermite, no sticky glue
18:16 < fenn> to say nothing of actually sophisticated mechanisms
18:17 < fenn> aaron beck is designing a mecha for some mecha combat contest TV show
18:17 < fenn> it's just simulated combat though
18:17 < fenn> PVC pipe rockets and paintball guns
18:18 < ForrestFlanagan> Like I'd love to use an eddy current based weapon on a bot
18:19 < fenn> oops i meant alex iglesias http://www.megabots.com/
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18:21 < ForrestFlanagan> hahaha that's awesome
18:22 < ForrestFlanagan> odd robot I'd like to see would be jumping
18:22 < fenn> like a kangaroo?
18:22 < fenn> the most efficient animal
18:23 < ForrestFlanagan> basically, go way airborn and guide the fall with automated systems
18:23 < ForrestFlanagan> there's too many limits on pneumatics, hydraulics, stored sprint energy, etc
18:24 < ForrestFlanagan> not to mention automated systems
18:25 < ForrestFlanagan> oh, why were you thinking of sublimation materials?
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18:27 < ForrestFlanagan> I know some materials, but maybe something else would work?
18:27 < ForrestFlanagan> I just missed the context of the problem.
18:29 < ForrestFlanagan> seismometer, firing, dry ice, moth balls
18:30 < fenn> to keep the sensor from breaking during high-g acceleration during firing
18:30 < fenn> it would be encased/filled with a solid material
18:31 < ForrestFlanagan> why not dissolvable?
18:31 < ForrestFlanagan> also a sabot would work for just getting it out of the gun
18:32 < ForrestFlanagan> when I make shotgun loads I just put them in the little plastic cups that are for that sort of thing
18:32 < fenn> yeah i guess a solid foam would work, but needs more stuff to happen, like you have to puncture a solvent container or something
18:34 < fenn> sugar cubes + water = sugar water
18:34 < ForrestFlanagan> glass
18:35 < fenn> glass?
18:35 < ForrestFlanagan> is water soluble
18:35 < fenn> er, it is?
18:36 < ForrestFlanagan> sorry, had phone
18:37 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah, leave out the alkali earth metals when you're melting the glass, it's totally water soluble
18:37 < ForrestFlanagan> works just like regular glass every other way, except is dissolves in water
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18:40 < ForrestFlanagan> can't find a commercial source for the stuff, maybe the company went under
18:40 < fenn> just potassium hydroxide right?
18:41 < fenn> hum. maybe sodium silicate
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18:44 < ForrestFlanagan> no no, sodium silicate is a cool thing with it's own applications
18:45 < ForrestFlanagan> I can go on and on about the cash for clunkers program, but I won't
18:45 < ForrestFlanagan> dug up some stuff from the company I can't find at the moment
18:45 < ForrestFlanagan> archives
18:45 < ForrestFlanagan> Most glass is made by melting together sand (silica), soda and lime. The soda reduces the sand’s melting point, which makes it easier to create glass; but the soda also makes glass water-soluble, so lime is typically added to restore insolubility. The glass featured here is made using only silica and soda. Essentially, anything made of conventional glass can be made with water-soluble glass. It is currently used as
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18:46 < fenn> "sodium silicate was also used to cement the top wad into brass shotgun shells, thereby eliminating any need for a crimp at the top of the brass shotgun shell to hold a shotgun shell together. Reloading brass shotgun shells was widely practiced by self-reliant American farmers during the 1870s, using the same waterglass material that was also used to preserve eggs. The cementing of the top wad on
18:46 < fenn> a shotgun shell consisted of applying from 3 to 5 drops of waterglass on the top wad to secure it to the brass hull"
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18:47 < fenn> "A mixture of caustic soda, quartz sand, and water are prepared in a mixing tank, then fed into a reactor, where steam is introduced. The reaction is
18:47 < fenn> n SiO2 + 2 NaOH → Na2O•nSiO2 + H2O"
18:47 < ForrestFlanagan> I know a lot about sodium silicate, but I'm talking about glass that dissolves
18:47 < fenn> pretty sure it's the same thing
18:47 < ForrestFlanagan> once sodium silicate comes makes glass, it never goes back
18:47 < ForrestFlanagan> or, actually
18:47 < ForrestFlanagan> huh
18:48 < fenn> soda is sodium carbonate right?
18:48 < ForrestFlanagan> it might
18:48 < ForrestFlanagan> and if it does
18:48 < ForrestFlanagan> that means cash for clunkers isn't the end of the line
18:49 < fenn> Solid phase (thermal process) Sodium carbonate and sodium sulfate melt at temperatures far below that of silica. (<900 °C vs >1600 °C) Either is melted, and silica dissolved into the molten material, where it reacts to form sodium silicate.
18:49 < fenn> Na2CO3 + x SiO2 → (Na2O)•(SiO2)x + CO2
18:50 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168
18:51 < fenn> oh i see
18:51 < fenn> "Sodium silicate solution is used to inexpensively, quickly, and permanently disable automobile engines. Running an engine with about 2 liters of a sodium silicate solution instead of motor oil causes the solution to precipitate, catastrophically damaging the engine's bearings and pistons within a few minutes.[12] In the United States, this procedure was used to comply with requirements of the
18:51 < fenn> Car Allowance Rebate System (CARS) program"
18:51 < ForrestFlanagan> basically it eliminated the rolling stock of automobiles
18:52 < ForrestFlanagan> the idea is it would force everyone to finance and buy new, since old used cars wouldn't be around
18:53 < ForrestFlanagan> most people I know just wouldn't drive if they couldn't get a semi-reliable car for under a grand
18:53 < fenn> i wonder who came up with the acronym CARS
18:54 < ForrestFlanagan> and most people with those cars maintain them using junkyard parts, but CARS killed all the junkyard parts too
18:54 < ForrestFlanagan> dunno, some auto industry lobbyist
18:55 < fenn> but look at all that surplus http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-16/where-worlds-unsold-cars-go-die
18:56 < fenn> "They have run out of space to park all of these brand new unsold cars"
19:00 < fenn> and also there aren't enough batteries being produced yet to either retrofit all of the old cars as electrics or make new electric cars
19:01 < fenn> or hybrids
19:01 < fenn> anyway cars are dumb
19:01 < fenn> we need smart cars that can drive themselves, and less cars overall in the US
19:02 < fenn> cash for clunkers should have only paid out of you bought a self driving car
19:02 < fenn> </rant>
19:04 < kanzure> an elaborate pneumatic tube system for transporting and caring for mice
19:04 < kanzure> it's perfect
19:05 < kanzure> feeling a little brain damaged at the moment
19:05 < ForrestFlanagan> I had an obsession with pneumatic tubes a few years ago
19:05 < fenn> hamster tubes
19:06 < ForrestFlanagan> basically I was thinking of huge packet switched networks based on partially evacuated tubes with periodic atmosphere injection to accelerate either direction
19:07 < fenn> "we could just have smart cars that drive themselves on the tollroads, eliminating the need for human drivers
19:07 < fenn> and then everyone is billed for the self-driving cars that are accumulating tolls
19:07 < ForrestFlanagan> for a theoretical low footprint city with greater than kowloon density
19:07 < fenn> yesss
19:09 < fenn> .title www.google.com/patents/US5950543
19:09 < yoleaux> Patent US5950543 - Tubular transportation system for transporting passengers/cargos - Google Patents
19:09 < kanzure> i wonder if automatic cryoresuscitation will be possible without human intervention
19:09 < kanzure> cryopreservation at the moment is an extremely manual procedure
19:09 < kanzure> although there seems to be a high human error rate too
19:10 < fenn> cryopreservation at the moment is barely being practiced at all
19:10 < fenn> ~4 procedures performed per year?
19:10 < ForrestFlanagan> there's only like 200 cryopatients at the moment as I understand it
19:10 < kanzure> ForrestFlanagan: recently i had an idea for how to make cryoresuscitation work
19:10 < kanzure> however, i require 3 million hamsters
19:10 < ForrestFlanagan> spill ye beans
19:11 < kanzure> you can probably guess from that alone
19:11 < fenn> his big idea is to breed them for cryopreservation tolerance
19:11 < kanzure> oh come on i wanted to know what crazy things he could think to do with 3 million rodents
19:11 < ForrestFlanagan> haha, okay
19:12 < fenn> give them miniature typewriters and wait until they write up a working protocol?
19:12 < ForrestFlanagan> I was studying a thing a few months ago related to cryo
19:12 < kanzure> and if at a million rodents it doesn't work, then start with just single organ survival and breed that
19:12 < ForrestFlanagan> novel stuff
19:13 < fenn> magnetics or pressure changes?
19:13 < ForrestFlanagan> found this japanese company doing commercial freezer retrofits
19:13 < fenn> ooh ooh i remember this
19:13 < ForrestFlanagan> they were nuts, their technology is basically just throwing out everything that might work
19:14 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah, you might have seen it?
19:14 < ForrestFlanagan> they had big flat 60hz coils
19:14 < ForrestFlanagan> everything is 60hz
19:14 < ForrestFlanagan> they had no electrical engineers is my guess
19:14 < ForrestFlanagan> I'll dig them up
19:15 < fenn> "ABI’s “Cells Alive System” (CAS) vibrates water with magnetic fields, preventing freezing, even at supercool tem
19:16 < fenn> peratures of -10 degrees Celsius (According to the Patent.) When the field is turned off, the water in the food instantly freez
19:16 < fenn> es."
19:16 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah
19:16 < ForrestFlanagan> this thing
19:16 < ForrestFlanagan> http://casfresh.trustpass.alibaba.com/product/114517330-103247594/Cells_Alive_System.html
19:16 < ForrestFlanagan> I dug up a ton of crap and related research on it
19:17 < fenn> hehe "feeble energies"
19:17 < fenn> this reminds me of the carburetor magnet thingy in the 1970's
19:17 < ForrestFlanagan> hahaha
19:18 < ForrestFlanagan> kanzure: you might want to wget all of these, I don't think this directory is supposed to be public http://www.alcor.org/cryonics/
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19:18 < fenn> i dunno man, that popsicle photo is pretty convincing
19:22 < ForrestFlanagan> but yeah, I see no reason I couldn't do a mini cells alive system with some fans, magnet wire, and an old chest freezer
19:23 < ForrestFlanagan> oh, and they have a 60hz subwoofer too
19:23 < ForrestFlanagan> PUT POWER TO ALL THE THINGS
19:24 < fenn> FEEBLE POWER!!!
19:24 < ForrestFlanagan> this patent reads like something I would have built while messing around as a child
19:24 < ForrestFlanagan> but the results are fantastic
19:24  * fenn mumbles something about the magnetocaloric effect
19:24 < ForrestFlanagan> I'd like to play with values and try for better
19:25 < fenn> .wik magnetocaloric effect
19:25 < yoleaux> "Magnetic refrigeration is a cooling technology based on the magnetocaloric effect. This technique can be used to attain extremely low temperatures, as well as the ranges used in common refrigerators." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetocaloric_effect
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19:28 < fenn> the general idea is that spin alignment due to an imposed magnetic field will tie up rotational degrees of freedom, so a substance will have lower heat capacity while in a magnetic field
19:28 < fenn> because it has less degrees of freedom
19:28 < ForrestFlanagan> that's freaking nuts
19:28 < fenn> so for a given energy the temperature should go up when you turn on the magnetic field, and go down when you turn it off
19:29 < fenn> in practice it's like millikelivn tho
19:31 < ForrestFlanagan> I passed that to a friend of mine, he said he helped with a science fair project exploiting the effect
19:31 < ForrestFlanagan> that's saying something because he's a 50's kid
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19:33 < fenn> i thought it was a new field, but i guess that shouldn't be surprising that it's been around since at least the 50's
19:38 < ForrestFlanagan> I worry he may have thought I was talking about something else
19:38 < ForrestFlanagan> He's talked about ammonia fridges before
19:39 < ForrestFlanagan> I think they're a cool idea but I don't want to deal with pure ammonia at high heat and pressure if I can help it
19:39 < fenn> apparently they used magnetic refrigeration to condense helium in the 1930's
19:39 < kanzure> have you seen a scroll compressor
19:40 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah, dual archimedian spirals
19:40 < ForrestFlanagan> gyrating
19:40 < ForrestFlanagan> very efficient
19:40 < kanzure> i want a single-manufacturing-process engine
19:42 < ForrestFlanagan> milling is required, as is making a planar mating surface
19:42 < fenn> he's obsessed with maskless lithography
19:42 < fenn> unfortunately, gases don't behave a micron scales
19:42 < fenn> at*
19:43 < ForrestFlanagan> but what about nano steam?
19:43 < ForrestFlanagan> that works
19:43 < fenn> oh this is interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrocaloric_effect
19:44 < fenn> 12K sounds like not much, but that's huge compared to magnetocaloric effects
19:45 < kanzure> maskless lithography does not require micron-scale features -_-
19:45 < fenn> also you can do many repeated heating/cooling steps with comb electrodes
19:45 < fenn> kanzure are you a 3d printing fanboy
19:45 < kanzure> no
19:45 < fenn> are you sure
19:46 < fenn> how do you intend to take advantage of maskless lithography for making scroll compressors?
19:46 < kanzure> i hate openscad, i hate bre pettis, i don't own a 3d printer, i hate stl, i am pretty sure i am not a 3d printing fanboy
19:46 < kanzure> i was hating bre pettis before it was cool to hate bre pettis
19:46 < fenn> ok well me too, but i would probably consider myself a 3d printing fanboy
19:46 < kanzure> really.
19:47 < kanzure> just because you made a printer does not make you a fanboy
19:47 < fenn> i just really like the idea of pulling a complex shaped part out of a thin vat of liquid
19:47 < ForrestFlanagan> bre pettis has been on my shitlist since pre makerbot
19:47 < ForrestFlanagan> he's a nasty hackerspace owner and a terrible boss
19:47 < fenn> since he absconded with the reprap research foundation's assets
19:48 < ForrestFlanagan> just read how the makerbot employees thrash his leadership on glassdoor
19:48 < fenn> makerbot basically got their start by literally stealing from the community
19:48 < ForrestFlanagan> also if not stl then what, gts?
19:48 < ForrestFlanagan> OBJ?
19:49 < fenn> anyway i think we can all agree that bre pettis did not invent "3d printing"
19:49 < ForrestFlanagan> I wish I had a slicer that supported OBJ
19:49 < fenn> sadly all formats are terrible
19:49 < ForrestFlanagan> the only reason reprap got their start is key patents expired
19:49 < fenn> STEP is at least commonly supported and can represent exact shapes
19:49 < fenn> i happen to like IGES because it's easy to implement and it's an open standard
19:49 < ForrestFlanagan> noted
19:51 < fenn> it's easy to say in hindsight that it was the patents, but i don't remember anyone ever talking about it at the time
19:51 < ForrestFlanagan> a friend of mine wouldn't stop talking about them
19:51 < fenn> it was probably the economic recession that caused people to start tinkering
19:52 < fenn> i'm not sure why adrian bowyer actually started the project
19:52 < fenn> why now and why him at this place and time i mean
19:52 < ForrestFlanagan> he's this engineer guy that normally lives in the ukraine and entertains odd ideas about communes
19:53 < fenn> i was also thinking about self replicating machine tools at the time reprap came out, but maybe that's just selection effects
19:53 < kanzure> heh
19:53 < kanzure> ForrestFlanagan: that describes almost eeryone in here
19:53 < ForrestFlanagan> he's good at a lot of stuff and he taught me some stuff about microcontrollers over email in the 8th grade, I convinced him to move to austin a few years ago
19:54 < ForrestFlanagan> he's moderately.. somethings funny about him
19:54 < kanzure> strangely, that also describes many people in here
19:54 < fenn> yeah sounds familiar
19:54 < kanzure> especially the part about convincing people to move to austin
19:54 < fenn> did i ever live in ukraine?
19:54 < kanzure> probably
19:54 < ForrestFlanagan> hahaha
19:55 < ForrestFlanagan> anyways, he used to post as ant on some reprap forums and stuff
19:55 < fenn> my dream is to hijack a karelian freighter and terrorize the finnish coast
19:55 < fenn> but in a good way
19:55 < ForrestFlanagan> Tony Bondhus
19:56 < ForrestFlanagan> last I checked he had some land, but I don't know how that's going
19:56 < kanzure> i met him 2010-11-06
19:56 < ForrestFlanagan> wow that was a while back
19:56 < kanzure> tony@conceivia.com
19:57 < ForrestFlanagan> that's him
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19:58 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Antpower~enwiki
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19:59 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah he's fun like that
19:59 < ForrestFlanagan> I can't go live in a shack with him at the moment though
20:00 < ForrestFlanagan> I've got my own tech to tinker with
20:00 < fenn> new website has too much ranting about "Capitalism"
20:01 < ForrestFlanagan> that's part of the "something off"
20:04 < kanzure> communes suck
20:04 < Taek> as a commune fan: why?
20:05 < kanzure> i was indoctrinated into an internet-lets-go-make-a-commune-in-the-desert cult when i was 15
20:05 < fenn> you guys didn't actually do anything though
20:05 < Taek> rule 1 of communes: no shitty people.
20:05 < kanzure> well we wrote like 500k lines of code for an mmorpg to recruit people
20:06 < kanzure> we had our own microprocessor architecture
20:06 < kanzure> and a conlang
20:06  * Adlai mentions that the grand commune social experiment is 67 years (to the day!) underway, and largely failing, with the notable exception of those communes that participate in consumerist society by hosting factories on their soil
20:07 < fenn> hosting factories?
20:08 < fenn> Adlai: are you saying it's not a commune if you make and sell stuff?
20:08 < ForrestFlanagan> tech commune would be my thing
20:09 < ForrestFlanagan> these isolationist anticonsumer communes suck
20:09 < kanzure> i used to recruit people by arguing with them for 14 hours straight
20:09 < Adlai> no, but it's less of one when the commune only survives through rents from corporations
20:09  * Adlai is referring to kibbutzim, in case this wasn't clear
20:09 < kanzure> "only a life of building particle accelerators will be meaningful"
20:09 < kanzure> ... it was a strange cult.
20:09 < ForrestFlanagan> tony participated in a few, including twin oaks
20:09 < Adlai> "Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises.[2] Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism. In recent decades, some kibbutzim have been privatized and changes have been made in the communal lifestyle"
20:10 < ForrestFlanagan> they all sucked, mostly because they were consensus based and they always had holdouts, so all the good people just gave up and left
20:10 < Adlai> which is a nice way of saying, "the communes have become cohabitation spaces"
20:10 < fenn> Adlai: news alert, humans are obsolete and have been for 50 years
20:10 < Adlai> where do i sign up for the thiopental?
20:11 < fenn> it's not at all surprising that small scale non-mechanized farming is unprofitable in a global trade network
20:11 < kanzure> cohabitation communes sound like an awful idea
20:11 < kanzure> we would have kicked out anyone that was not as insanely productive as everyone else (and we did a few times)
20:11 < Adlai> arguably kibbutzim are only failing by child-retention metrics, which are worthless to begin with
20:11 < kanzure> (but i mean in the desert, especially)
20:12 < fenn> over what time scale do you measure productivity
20:13 < fenn> it may take years to construct a highly efficient system
20:13 < kanzure> well we mostly just focused on pre-existing subject matter expertise
20:13 < ForrestFlanagan> kanzure this commune sounds like it'd have sucked me in, except deserts suck
20:13 < kanzure> or how to acquire that expertise
20:13 < kanzure> well we were not in a desert
20:13 < kanzure> it was the interwebs
20:13 < fenn> hmm dont you both live in texas
20:13  * Adlai has yet to find water on the interwebs
20:14 < Adlai> thus, desert
20:14 < fenn> machine phase
20:14 < fenn> infotrophic biome
20:14 < kanzure> desert was only because that was some cheap land we had found
20:14 < fenn> er, mechome
20:14 < Adlai> how do you abstract "desert" to the informatiosphere?
20:14 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah
20:14 < ForrestFlanagan> you don't live in texas fenn?
20:14 < fenn> i am currently in berkeley
20:15 < ForrestFlanagan> ah
20:15 < fenn> i lived in austin 2008-2009
20:15 < ForrestFlanagan> fenn: <kanzure> i was indoctrinated into an internet-lets-go-make-a-commune-in-the-desert cult when i was 15
20:15 < kanzure> productivity never really needed to be measured for some reason; it was quite obvious that everyone was making regular progress.
20:15 < ForrestFlanagan> I thought there was a desert..
20:15 < kanzure> ForrestFlanagan: the plan was to move to a desert
20:15 < kanzure> and take infrastructure with us
20:16 < kanzure> i think the whole thing collapsed around the time that our glorious 16 year-old leader discovered sex
20:16 < ForrestFlanagan> that'd be very comfortable with structural insulated panel architechture
20:17 < ForrestFlanagan> actual laughing wheezy noise
20:17 < fenn> i like superadobe dome construction
20:17 < ForrestFlanagan> what is that, like shot-crete?
20:17 < kanzure> gotta show the wasps who's boss
20:18 < fenn> compressed earth in woven plastic cloth tubes
20:18 < fenn> but it's basically adobe
20:19 < ForrestFlanagan> I like sips way more
20:19 < ForrestFlanagan> I'm not so into hippie earth bag construction
20:19 < fenn> well, one is portable, one is not
20:20 < fenn> if going for portable i'd do something like the eden project
20:20 < ForrestFlanagan> sips are light enough
20:20 < fenn> yeah, you can transport sips but not an earthbag dome
20:20 < fenn> anyway earth construction is basically free if you have robots do the work
20:21 < ForrestFlanagan> like I could probably build a three story multi family dwelling with enough sip material to fill a shipping container
20:21 < fenn> but how much would it cost
20:21 < ForrestFlanagan> oh, robo earthbag is a neat variation
20:21 < ForrestFlanagan> I could be into that
20:21 < ForrestFlanagan> I've priced it out, not terribly much
20:22 < fenn> they are like $20 for a 4x8 panel?
20:22 < ForrestFlanagan> the shipping from the chinese supplier for a 40ft full container load is less than 2k
20:22 < fenn> or is that something else
20:22 < ForrestFlanagan> and they could be full of MgO, wood, or anodized aluminum skinned panels that just slot together
20:23 < ForrestFlanagan> 150-300 usd per cubic meter from there
20:23 < fenn> i think i missed a few thoughts in that train
20:24 < fenn> anodized aluminum panels are way more than $300/m^3
20:24 < ForrestFlanagan> I'd spec 10 inch panels for roofing, and then drop down to six inch for exterior walls and floor spans
20:24 < fenn> or do you mean finished interior volume?
20:24 < ForrestFlanagan> 3 inch MgO panels for interior, very fireproof
20:25 < ForrestFlanagan> I'm talking about sandwich panels
20:25 < ForrestFlanagan> they're thick
20:27 < ForrestFlanagan> http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=mgo+sandwich+panel
20:28 < ForrestFlanagan> that's just what I'd use on the interiior, it's cheap
20:28 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@128-193-152-179.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:28 < ForrestFlanagan> and the metal skinned stuff is ideal for roofs, because it's light and freaking stiff
20:29 < ForrestFlanagan> 20" unsupported spans are easy with the stuff, I've got books with all the tables and whatnot
20:29 < ForrestFlanagan> 20' I mean
20:30 < kanzure> gene_hacker: sup
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20:32 < fenn> $8/m^2 is pretty good.. are these alibaba prices realistic?
20:33 < kanzure> gene_hacker: what's up
20:33 < fenn> they all seem to be different products
20:33 < ForrestFlanagan> they are, but this is for full container load stuff
20:33 < ForrestFlanagan> well yeah it's a mixed lot, alibaba searches suck
20:34 < ForrestFlanagan> they're all structural insulated panels though
20:34 < ForrestFlanagan> books I have focus on panels skinned with 7/16" OSB
20:34 < ForrestFlanagan> that's the industry standard in the US
20:35 < ForrestFlanagan> MgO is new tech, very fireproof
20:35 < fenn> yeah i hate OSB
20:35 < fenn> MgO is like a dietary supplement :P
20:36 < fenn> does inhaling the dust have health benefits? :P
20:36 < ForrestFlanagan> ha
20:37 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah, easy workers comp claims
20:37 < ForrestFlanagan> mesothelioma
20:38 < ForrestFlanagan> it's not a dusty board, unless you're sawing it
20:38 < fenn> mag-board.com says it's non-toxic even if you breathe the dust
20:38 < ForrestFlanagan> it's actually a lot better than drywall in that respect
20:38 < gene_hacker> so what was I summoned here for?
20:38 < ForrestFlanagan> sure, but particulate matter hazards still apply
20:38 < ForrestFlanagan> you were summoned?
20:39 < fenn> welcome to summoner's rift
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20:40 < Genestealer> gene hacker
20:40 < Genestealer> LOL
20:40 < fenn> so is it like pizza night in austin? are you guys going to meet up?
20:41 < gene_hacker> I'm not in austin
20:41 < gene_hacker> is kanzure in austin?
20:42 < fenn> huh? ok nevermind
20:42 < ForrestFlanagan> he's got to go do some NYC stuff, but he normally is in austin
20:44 < kanzure> gene_hacker: you were summoned because ForrestFlanagan is doing some drone stuff
20:44 < kanzure> and reprap reasons i guess
20:44 < ForrestFlanagan> oh neato
20:44 < kanzure> wait why does ForrestFlanagan know about me going to nyc
20:45 < ForrestFlanagan> I don't know?
20:45 < ForrestFlanagan> You must have told me
20:45 < fenn> because of inverse stalkmatrix time travel technology
20:45 < gene_hacker> also if you are in austin, you could probably go to borg fest if you really really hurry
20:45 < gene_hacker> err wait
20:47 < kanzure> .g borg fest austin
20:47 < yoleaux> http://borgfest.com/
20:47 < gene_hacker> so what's this about reprap drones
20:47 < gene_hacker> whoops
20:47 < gene_hacker> ended at 10 pm
20:47 < kanzure> oh look a celebration in my honor
20:48 < kanzure> http://borgfest.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Invent-300x168.png
20:48 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah you were talking about it earlier kanzure
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20:48 < ForrestFlanagan> we were having a bitcoin rant
20:48 < ForrestFlanagan> I have been playing with a sensor that I want to turn into a robotics thing
20:49 < ForrestFlanagan> and it'd be a great time of flight 360 laser range system for a small drone
20:49 < ForrestFlanagan> because it's so light
20:49 < fenn> what's the sensor called?
20:50 < ForrestFlanagan> but it's a challenge because I have no idea how to raise the power of the infrared pulses
20:50 < ForrestFlanagan> it has the craziest timing
20:51 < ForrestFlanagan> it's the VL6180
20:51 < ForrestFlanagan> I'm convinced it's one of the most underrated chips out now
20:51 < ForrestFlanagan> nobody uses it right, they just use all the default register values for phone gesture recognition and ultra low power output
20:52 < gene_hacker> range 0 - 10 cm
20:52 < ForrestFlanagan> but it's a high speed time of flight rangefinder that speaks bot I2C and SPI
20:52 < ForrestFlanagan> you reading it wrong, gotta hack it
20:53 < ForrestFlanagan> the range is based on a few things
20:53 < gene_hacker> the IR emitter is built onto it
20:53 < ForrestFlanagan> the relative brightness of the pulse emitted, which is affected by ambient light and target reflectance properties
20:54 < ForrestFlanagan> also a register value
20:54 < ForrestFlanagan> it should work way farther out, like meters
20:54 < ForrestFlanagan> but that IR emitter is too weak
20:54 < gene_hacker> you don't get direct access to IR driver
20:56 < ForrestFlanagan> I know but if I can set up a PLL or something to match it's timing on the subnanosecond level to a larger IR driver, then it's getting somewhere
20:59 < fenn> wow i didnt know cellphones had ToF rangefinders in them
20:59 < ForrestFlanagan> now they do
20:59 < ForrestFlanagan> they used to just have shitty light level to digital converters
21:00 < ForrestFlanagan> this part is the cutting edge
21:00 < gene_hacker> holy crap
21:00 < gene_hacker> that thing has a laser in it
21:00 < fenn> so what's the depth resolution in mm?
21:00 < Sheena1234> fenn: was it you i was talking to about magnesium, perchance?
21:01 < fenn> Sheena1234: probably
21:01 < fenn> Sheena1234: i tell pretty much everyone they need to take supplemental magnesium
21:01 < Sheena1234> fenn: cool. can you remind me some data/dosage details if you have them handy? i'm taking it daily, and wanting to maximize results
21:02 < Sheena1234> "to tolerance"?
21:02 < gene_hacker> so how fast can you turn the laser on and off?
21:02 < ForrestFlanagan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NHKga3V6xo
21:02 < ForrestFlanagan> explains the stmicro part pretty well
21:03 < fenn> Sheena1234: 100 to 200mg a day is probably enough (that would be 600-1300mg of magnesium citrate)
21:03 < fenn> Sheena1234: note that most things (including citrate) don't dissolve well; make sure that it's dissolved
21:03 < ForrestFlanagan> the test at 2:43 is pretty damning to other technologies
21:03 < Genestealer> gene hacker are you a biologist?
21:03 < Sheena1234> like, remove from capsule nad dissolve prior to swallowing?
21:03 < gene_hacker> it has one of these inside:
21:03 < gene_hacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical-cavity_surface-emitting_laser
21:03 < Genestealer> or do you do molecular or biochemical work??
21:04 < gene_hacker> @Genestealer I don't know what I am any more
21:04 < Genestealer> i mean what is your profession?>
21:04 < fenn> Sheena1234: yes. if it's not dissolved you can't absorb it
21:04 < Sheena1234> looks like im at about 300mg a day of citrate, so should be good to double that and if tolerated, work on increasing.. optimal dosing frequency thoughts?
21:04 < Genestealer> do you have a PhD?
21:05  * fenn shrugs
21:05 < gene_hacker> @Genestealer I don't do biochemical work, but I do molecular work?
21:05 < Sheena1234> fenn: stomach acid is insuffucient solvent?
21:05 < gene_hacker> doing phd
21:05 < fenn> Sheena1234: not really. and many people have insufficient stomach acid
21:06 < fenn> you can add magnesium oxide to lemon juice, that works for sure
21:06 < gene_hacker> that sensor is going to be very difficult to modify, but if you can turn the laser on and off really fast and detect it with another laser you could do free space optical communication
21:06 < kanzure> ah i thought gene_hacker was doing just masters
21:06 < Genestealer> hey awesome im a grad student too
21:06 < gene_hacker> ha ha no
21:07 < Genestealer> what's your thesis on?
21:07 < Sheena1234> fenn: thanks :)
21:07 < ForrestFlanagan> holy crap
21:08 < ForrestFlanagan> I'm so into FSO communication
21:08 < fenn> Sheena1234: i have had magnesium citrate pills emptied into a glass of water not dissolve after several weeks
21:08 < gene_hacker> using AI to invent new photoresponsive materials based around metal organic frameworks containing photoisomerizing moieties
21:08 < ForrestFlanagan> thanks for the tip on the VCSEL, I didn't know
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21:09 < gene_hacker> well if you can do FSO with your little laser thing, you might be able to make some ghetto smart dust
21:09 < Sheena1234> fenn: wow. thats good to know. i cant imagine it's very yummy after being dissolved though..??
21:09 < fenn> meh. it's almost impossible to detect if added to concord grape juice
21:10 < ForrestFlanagan> I'm interested in the photoresistive materials thing
21:11 < ForrestFlanagan> I tried to do FSO a while back modifying IRDA dongles, I ended up having a crappy time trying to reject ambient light/concentrate light from a long distance
21:11 < gene_hacker> shit if you could find some way to steer the beam that doesn't take crazy amounts of power you could probably make FSO communication nodes like Vinge was crazy about
21:11 < ForrestFlanagan> *photoresponsive
21:11 < fenn> ForrestFlanagan: you never found ronja.twibright.com ?
21:12 < ForrestFlanagan> I have, but I didn't like their bandwidth limitations
21:12 < gene_hacker> photoresponsive mainly meaning expanding or contracting when light is shined on it
21:12 < ForrestFlanagan> I tried doing something with PIN diodes but I couldn't ever get it to work outside of a dark box
21:12 < ForrestFlanagan> oh nevermind gene
21:13 < gene_hacker> or changing pore size, stiffness, auxeticity, catalytic properties or whatever
21:13 < ForrestFlanagan> sounds like a good way to control a microfluidic valve network with just a scanning laser though
21:15 < fenn> for steering the beam http://www.phased-array.com/
21:15 < ForrestFlanagan> really it sounds like a whole host of cheap chem chip control technologies that could be driven with a laser scanner
21:16 < gene_hacker> ha, we're thinking we could define a microfluidic device by shining a laser on a sheet of this stuff
21:16 < fenn> it's worth noting that phased arrays are passive elements
21:17 < fenn> that is, if they're not created by synthesizing waveforms
21:17 < gene_hacker> you probably need a lot more scan area than a phased array can offer
21:17 < gene_hacker> http://core0.staticworld.net/images/idge/imported/article/ctw/2003/03/24/multifunctionalmote_large-100407896-orig.gif
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21:19 < fenn> cute "passive transmitter" modulated retroreflector
21:19 < gene_hacker> vinge was crazy about this sort of stuff
21:19 < fenn> yeah i know
21:19 < fenn> mind-reading etc
21:19 < gene_hacker> because you could drop these over a city and have a high bandwidth communication network in a day
21:20 < gene_hacker> nah I was thinking more of the stuff that was in Rainbows End not a deepness in the sky
21:20 < fenn> you could drop them over a room and have realtime GSR, ECG, EEG etc for all the people in the room
21:21 < fenn> as well as voice and optical data of course
21:21 < gene_hacker> well the thing in rainbows end was that you can use them to accurately locate stuff
21:21 < fenn> you can do that with bokode
21:22 < fenn> actually i'm not sure if that works with retroreflectors
21:22 < gene_hacker> because hey you can do time of flight between each of the nodes
21:22 < gene_hacker> and with that you do augmented reality and a whole bunch of robot control problems are solved
21:23 < gene_hacker> the advantage of this over bokode is that this gets you internet
21:23 < fenn> oh good point.. time of flight is magic
21:24 < fenn> so you get triangulation and trilateration at the same time
21:25 < gene_hacker> http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/8.01/forward.html
21:26 < fenn> "Moore's law holds. For another 20 years" well that sort of happened
21:26 < fenn> we got more transistors anyway
21:30 < gene_hacker> no localizers though
21:31 < fenn> wifi fingerprinting has become default
21:32 < fenn> that's what "location services" is
21:32 < fenn> AR just hasn't become popular enough to need better localization resolution
21:32 < ParahSailin> yeah, magnesium is weird
21:33 < ParahSailin> MDs still consider its supplementation "holistic"
21:33 < gene_hacker> AR isn't really possible because we don't have great localization resolution
21:34 < fenn> hmm not a bad idea: "Design so as to postpone irrevocable decisions until the last moment"
21:34 < kanzure> minimize the number of irrevocable deadly decisions
21:35 < fenn> ParahSailin: nutritionists are pretty much in agreement that everyone is deficient
21:35 < fenn> i think MDs are mostly just anti-supplement in general
21:35 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7a8ee53d Bryan Bishop: irrevocable decisions >> 
21:36 < fenn> heh
21:36 < ParahSailin> yeah i started mg supplementation a while ago, but stopped when i felt i didnt need it
21:36 < ParahSailin> wife is having all kinds of cramps, and i am pushing mg on her, but she is afraid to eat without doctor permission
21:37 < ParahSailin> apparently MDs only believe in two mammalian cellular electrolytes
21:37 < fenn> "kalzium ist alles!"
21:37 < ParahSailin> hm 3 is probably more accurate representation of their position
21:39 < ParahSailin> the weird thing is that they recognize the use of mg to arrest labor
21:39 < fenn> and after heart attacks
21:40 < fenn> but not before heart attacks for some reason
21:40 < ForrestFlanagan> can someone throw me the key science on this supplement?
21:40 < ForrestFlanagan> are there good papers?
21:41 < ParahSailin> Slowincow et al "The White Element"
21:41 < ForrestFlanagan> should I stir my tea with a thermite starter or something?
21:42 < fenn> hum.. i liked mildred seelig's book, but that's kinda overkill
21:43 < ForrestFlanagan> google is failing me
21:43 < ForrestFlanagan> ncbi is failing me
21:44 < ForrestFlanagan> why does everyone like mg so much
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21:46 < fenn> personally i was completely useless depressed tired pained piece of crap until i started taking magnesium
21:46 < kanzure> and now?
21:46 < fenn> well, none of that
21:47 < fenn> i do still procrastinate too much, but mostly because of the nice weather here
21:48 < fenn> i climbed a (small) mountain a couple days ago
21:48 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_Peak_%28Berkeley_Hills%29
21:48 < ParahSailin> ever felt really thirsty after doing like one of those churrascaria buffets?
21:49 < gene_hacker> shit you're in SF fenn?
21:49 < ParahSailin> like so thirsty from all the salt that drinking a ton of water afterward wouldnt quench it
21:50 < gene_hacker> I was there a couple weeks ago
21:50 < fenn> speaking of which, where's heath
21:51 < fenn> .wik churrascaria
21:51 < yoleaux> "A churrascaria (Portuguese pronunciation: [ʃuʁɐʃkɐˈɾi.ɐ]) is a place where meat is cooked in churrasco style, which translates roughly from the Portuguese for 'barbecue'." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churrascaria
21:54 < ForrestFlanagan> that sounds awesome
21:55 < ForrestFlanagan> okay, so magnesium citrate or what?
21:56 < fenn> the view from up there is amazing and really hard to photograph.. this comes close to what it looks like http://www.borrowlenses.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Q1A9799-Edit-Edit.jpg
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21:58 < ForrestFlanagan> I know some depressed people on proton pump inhibitors, I bet that sweeps out a lot of magnesium
21:58 < ForrestFlanagan> er, sweeps through, more like
21:58 < fenn> well it prevents you from absorbing magnesium oxide from vitamins
21:58 < fenn> because of the reduced stomach acid
21:59 < ForrestFlanagan> really, MgO?
21:59 < fenn> yeah funny isn't it
21:59 < fenn> surrounded by piles of the stuff and dying of deficiency
21:59 < ForrestFlanagan> well shoot, I hope those pills are really really cheap
21:59 < ForrestFlanagan> how many mg/kg is a good dose?
22:00 < fenn> 1-3 mg/kg
22:01 < ForrestFlanagan> 50-150 for me then
22:06 < ForrestFlanagan> gah, ebay is saturated with supplement people
22:06 < ForrestFlanagan> I can't find it as a reagent at a reasonable price
22:07 < ForrestFlanagan> gtg, cooking and stuff
22:07 < fenn> oh the book was "the magnesium factor" by mildred seelig, and was mostly about cardiovascular health
22:07 < fenn> ciao
22:07 -!- ForrestFlanagan is now known as ForrestFlanaganA
22:08 -!- ForrestFlanaganA is now known as ForrestAFK
22:08 < fenn> don't buy supplements on ebay
22:08 < ForrestAFK> I was trying to buy reagents
22:08 < ForrestAFK> I wanted to make my own
22:08 < ForrestAFK> make chalky cookies or something, I don't know
22:09 < fenn> buy NOW brand MgO on amazon
22:09 < fenn> http://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Magnesium-Oxide-Powder/dp/B0010B8CBW
22:09 < ForrestAFK> I probably wouldn't notice the difference If I pressed them with dextrose and root beer flavoring to make shitty necco wafers
22:10 < ForrestAFK> OK I buy those
22:10 < ForrestAFK> ttyl
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22:56 < ForrestFlanagan> genehacker, maybe if I coupled some optics to the TOF chip I could up the sensitivity?
22:59 < ForrestFlanagan> there?
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 23 00:00:30 2015