--- Log opened Fri May 08 00:00:05 2015
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07:50 < danielpbarron> found this channel here -> http://heybryan.org/
07:56 < kanzure> hello
07:56 < danielpbarron> hello
07:57 < danielpbarron> I used to be into transhumanism
07:58 < kanzure> welcome to the resistance.. everyone else sucks.
07:58 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration
07:58 < danielpbarron> "everyone else sucks" TM
08:04 < danielpbarron> how do transhumanists feel about The Bible?
08:04 < kanzure> most transhumanists have never heard of the bible
08:05 < danielpbarron> then I highly recommend this site to you all -> http://atruechurch.info/
08:06 < kanzure> yawn
08:07 < kanzure> you are reading bitcoin mailing list emails
08:07 < danielpbarron> yep
08:07 < danielpbarron> well someone pasted a link to them in #bitcoin-assets
08:07 < kanzure> asciilifeform used to be transhumanist but then he had a stroke and became lame
08:08 < danielpbarron> like.. a real stroke?
08:08 < kanzure> he is brain damaged
08:08 < danielpbarron> well who isn't?
08:08 < kanzure> paperbot
08:08 < danielpbarron> paperbot has no brain
08:09 < kanzure> at least he has a heart
08:09  * danielpbarron doesn't know what paperbot is
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08:09 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
08:09 < paperbot> ConnectionError: HTTPConnectionPool(host='localhost', port=1969): Max retries exceeded with url: /web (Caused by <class 'socket.error'>: [Errno 111] Connection refused) (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/adapters.py", line 375, in send)
08:09 < kanzure> roijfaidfaja
08:09 < kanzure> wtf
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08:09 < kanzure> so much for that
08:09 < danielpbarron> i guess he's brain damaged too
08:09 < kanzure> brains are dumb anyway
08:10 < kanzure> someone should fix that
08:11 < danielpbarron> well I didn't have a stroke, but I too was once a transhumanist sympathizer that is now no longer one
08:12 < danielpbarron> for me it had more to do with Jesus though
08:14 < ParahSailin> kanzure: what are android ad rates like these days?
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08:30 < kanzure> ParahSailin: haven't been looking. my guess: terrible. you get better results with promotional offers and shit.
08:33 < kanzure> wait, i mean the rates are good, but the results are going to suck anyway
08:42  * Adlai wants a reflective API for neural metaprogramming
08:43 < Adlai> most of my daily calories are burned while balancing a bicycle. the balancing is performed by two hands, separately. sometimes one hand does something else, such as holding a dog leash, and the other hand is able to balance just fine
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08:44 < Adlai> danielpbarron: my feelings about the bible are summarized as "which one?"
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08:47 < fenn> off topic
08:47 < danielpbarron> wtf is "off topic"
08:47 < fenn> discussion of religion
08:48 < danielpbarron> that's a stupid way to run a channel
08:48 < kanzure> most people are fucking awful at discussing religion
08:49 < danielpbarron> transhumanism isn't a religion?
08:49 < fenn> no
08:49  * Adlai recommends fenn read Breaking the Spell
08:49 < Adlai> arguably, religion is the first transhumanist phenomenon
08:49 < fenn> singularitarianism may be a religion, but meh
08:50 < fenn> transhumanism is about technology and actually doing stuff
08:50  * Adlai doesn't think transhumanism is cohesive enough to be a religion yet
08:50 < fenn> the "wait and see" prognostication commonly seen in mass media is not transhumanism
08:51 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+oo kanzure fenn] by ChanServ
08:51 <@kanzure> i'm going to be busy but feel free to mute him or whatever
08:51  * fenn shrugs
08:51 <@fenn> was going for a bike ride
08:51 <@kanzure> i said or whatever
08:51 <@kanzure> bike ride counts as whatever
08:52 < danielpbarron> oh how b-a has spoiled me. everyone else sucks.
08:52 <@fenn> go back there then
08:52 <@kanzure> most of the others in there are better trolls than this
08:52 < Adlai> fenn: make sure to monitor the balancing process
08:53 < Adlai> each hand can do it independently
08:53 < Adlai> they can also do it together, better
08:53 <@fenn> you dont need a hand to balance on most bikes
08:53 <@fenn> my bike pulls to the left pretty hard though so i need one hand to balance
08:53 <@kanzure> nobody believes in your unicycle gang
08:53 < Adlai> body-balancing is quite different from hand-on-handlebars-balancing
08:53 < danielpbarron> fenn> go back there then << grow a spine, coward
08:54 < danielpbarron> i didn't leave; can be in two channels at once
08:54 < danielpbarron> defend your stupid ideas
08:54 < danielpbarron> or would you rather just slap backs with yes men
08:54 <@kanzure> danielpbarron: really we have no reason to suspect that you are any better than average at doing transhumanist engineering projects
08:54 < Adlai> arguably none of us are "in" here, we are just conducting shared telepathy
08:54 <@kanzure> danielpbarron: so far you've linked to somethig about jesus and complained about religion
08:56 < danielpbarron> is that already covered in your log or something?
08:56 < danielpbarron> i'm rehashing a previously well covered topic?
08:56 <@kanzure> you're not rehashing at all
08:57 < danielpbarron> right. so what's the problem, beyond your not having enough confidence in your idea to defend it against a skeptic
08:57 <@kanzure> maybe you just have low expectations :-)
08:57 <@kanzure> what exactly are you skeptical about
08:57 <@kanzure> you should state it explicitly
08:57 <@kanzure> with words
08:58 < danielpbarron> i'm skeptical about any idea that sounds like it could only happen with government funding
08:58 < danielpbarron> like sending junk into space
08:58 <@kanzure> are you aware of projects that happen without government funding?
08:58 < danielpbarron> i'm skeptical about ideas that relate to evading death through technology
08:58 <@kanzure> e.g. are you lacking evidence of their existence
08:59 < danielpbarron> tell me about the project that put junk in outer space without government funding
08:59 <@kanzure> if someone gets an artificial heart who had already died at least once, is that evading death or does that not count for some reason?
08:59 < danielpbarron> that doesn't count because that person didn't die
09:00 <@kanzure> oh so it only counts if they can't be resuscitated with technology?
09:00 <@kanzure> just trying to understand where you're coming from
09:01 < danielpbarron> i'm coming from the belief that if you die, you go to hell. the fact that someone isn't in hell is evidence that they haven't died
09:01 <@kanzure> when you say someone, what do you mean
09:01 <@kanzure> do you mean their physical body
09:01 <@kanzure> or what
09:02 < danielpbarron> for the most part
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09:03 < danielpbarron> i'm also skeptical that humans are smart enough to pull this stuff off
09:03 <@kanzure> what other signs of death do you disagree with
09:04 < Adlai> isn't the idea to surpass humanity, and then pull the stuff off?
09:04 <@kanzure> Adlai: too vague
09:04 < Adlai> or are you skeptical that humans can pull off transhumanizing
09:04 <@kanzure> also vague
09:04 < danielpbarron> yes that
09:05 < danielpbarron> you cannot "transhumanize"
09:05 < Adlai> ok, what do you think "transhumanizing" means?
09:05 < danielpbarron> it means whatever you just meant it to mean
09:05 <@kanzure> .....
09:05 < danielpbarron> "achieve a state of being able to do X"
09:05 < danielpbarron> i think humans are just getting stupider, not smarter
09:05 <@kanzure> so what?
09:05 <@kanzure> why should you care if they are stupi?
09:05 <@kanzure> +stupid
09:06 < danielpbarron> that means they cannot upload their mind into the cloud or whatever they think is possible
09:06 < danielpbarron> they means they cannnot cheat death
09:06 < danielpbarron> you have to believe in your creator, or you go to hell. You can't work your way out of that one
09:06 < Adlai> "nuanced transhumanism includes the matter of exit route"
09:06 <@kanzure> wtf does going to hell have to do with anything
09:07 <@kanzure> why wouldn't an upload go to hell?
09:07 <@kanzure> this shit makes no sense
09:08 < danielpbarron> because the upload isn't the person
09:08 <@kanzure> i think you are conflating "whether something is technologically true" and "i am worried about experiencing some future state x that might have implications on whether i should believe others when they say they have built technology"
09:09 <@kanzure> who cares if they are the person or not? wtf x2
09:09 < danielpbarron> the person dies regardless of any upload
09:09 <@kanzure> oh, i don't care about that
09:09 < danielpbarron> ok so the person goes to hell, and your upload is just a script
09:09 <@kanzure> i'll take the script yeah
09:09 < danielpbarron> the script isn't aware of itself
09:09 < danielpbarron> or anything
09:09 < chris_99> why's that
09:09 < Adlai> is the person?
09:09 <@kanzure> neither am i
09:09 < danielpbarron> yes you are
09:09 <@kanzure> haha
09:09 < Adlai> looks like we hit the sweet spot
09:09 < Adlai> what is "aware"?
09:10 < danielpbarron> i am aware of myself, maybe you all are scripts; i suppose that's possible
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09:10 < Adlai> is your keyboard aware of your fingers?
09:10 < danielpbarron> no
09:10 < Adlai> is it aware of which keys they've pressed?
09:10 < danielpbarron> and for that matter, my cat isn't really aware either
09:10 <@kanzure> danielpbarron: for the record i also don't believe in consciousness, i think there's very little evidence for it
09:10 < danielpbarron> my cat also cannot go to hell
09:10 <@kanzure> no evidence, even
09:11 < chris_99> how do you know you can/cannot go to 'hell'
09:11 < danielpbarron> because God said so
09:11 < chris_99> oh
09:11 < chris_99> ok
09:12 < danielpbarron> it may surprise you to know that I do not believe in free will
09:12 <@kanzure> sounds like you agree though that a script is possible
09:12 <@kanzure> transhumanism is entirely about that script, nothing else
09:12 < danielpbarron> yeah, like a markov chain or something
09:12 <@kanzure> no
09:13 <@kanzure> you really think a markov chain is a useful implementation?
09:13 <@kanzure> for this?
09:13 < danielpbarron> a script that is identical to me? no. not possible, at least not possible for man to come up with
09:13 < danielpbarron> and if God made it, i guess it would be a man and not a script
09:14 <@kanzure> i never said identical
09:14 <@kanzure> your neurons are not identical even within 100ms intervals
09:14 < danielpbarron> so then how could you ever upload yourself?
09:15 <@kanzure> well, first, i don't care about selfhood, i'm willing to settle for far less
09:15 <@kanzure> second, there are very direct methods of scanning brain matter with microscopes for example
09:15 < danielpbarron> how very humble of you :D
09:15 < danielpbarron> a scan of brain matter will not let you replicate the person
09:15 <@kanzure> 24 MB photo http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/PAG759L.png
09:15 <@kanzure> i don't care about people, i care about brain matter
09:17 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/reconstruction.gif
09:17 <@kanzure> shitty image. hm.
09:18 <@kanzure> here is a fun presentation (video is okay too) http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/markram-2006/
09:18 < danielpbarron> i care about people, not brain matter
09:19 <@kanzure> yeah i mean ultimately the substrate wont matter, but right now brain matter is all we gots
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09:21 < danielpbarron> to what end? eventually the sun burns out and the galaxy burns out and so it goes
09:22 < danielpbarron> what happens to me when my ideas are merged with everyone elses? It's the same as me dying
09:22 < danielpbarron> dieing*?
09:22 <@kanzure> dunno why merging but w/e
09:22 <@kanzure> as for the star burning out, there are others
09:23 <@kanzure> galaxies also die and get recreated
09:23 < danielpbarron> others that are the same age and will burn out at same tme
09:23 <@kanzure> star matter turns into different star matter
09:23 <@kanzure> there are a bunch of options
09:24 <@kanzure> also this is why you see some galaxies eating other galaxies
09:25 < danielpbarron> i should say, i don't necessarily believe that last bit / playing devil's advocate
09:25 <@kanzure> you mean.... astronomy?
09:25 < danielpbarron> i have no evidence to suggest that stars die, or that the galaxy is even a thing
09:25 < namespace> ...
09:25 < namespace> Quit wasting Kanzures time.
09:25 < danielpbarron> i have no evidence that the other stars are like the earth's sun
09:25 <@kanzure> star death has a specific meaning
09:25 <@kanzure> <3 namespace
09:26 <@kanzure> danielpbarron: well we definitely receive photons from other star systems
09:26 < danielpbarron> no we do not
09:26 <@kanzure> what generates them?
09:26 < danielpbarron> there are photons, sure
09:26 < danielpbarron> God generated them
09:26 <@kanzure> but not through stars?
09:26 < danielpbarron> He said that the stars are lights
09:27 < danielpbarron> and on that much we can agree
09:27 <@kanzure> that does not answer my question
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09:27 < danielpbarron> He didn't say if there are balls of gas doing nuclear reactions to create that light
09:27 <@kanzure> do you believe our spectrometers are wrong?
09:27 < danielpbarron> what do they say?
09:28 <@kanzure> (factually inoperative)
09:28 <@kanzure> wavelength measurements
09:28 < danielpbarron> your interpretation of those measurments may be wrong
09:28 <@kanzure> well, actually, i'll say some of this is fair because of the difficulty of looking inside of stars
09:28 <@kanzure> but we'll get to that soon
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09:32 <@kanzure> anyway, as a professional strawman i've always known it was my purpose in life to burn alive
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09:34 < danielpbarron> that is a very real possibility
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10:46 <@kanzure> .title http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.3361.html
10:46 < yoleaux> High-resolution whole-brain staining for electron microscopic circuit reconstruction : Nature Methods : Nature Publishing Group
10:46 <@kanzure> "Currently only electron microscopy provides the resolution necessary to reconstruct neuronal circuits completely and with single-synapse resolution. Because almost all behaviors rely on neural computations widely distributed throughout the brain, a reconstruction of brain-wide circuits—and, ultimately, the entire brain—is highly desirable. However, these reconstructions require the undivided brain to be prepared for electron ...
10:46 <@kanzure> ... microscopic observation. Here we describe a preparation, BROPA (brain-wide reduced-osmium staining with pyrogallol-mediated amplification), that results in the preservation and staining of ultrastructural details throughout the brain at a resolution necessary for tracing neuronal processes and identifying synaptic contacts between them. Using serial block-face electron microscopy (SBEM), we tested human annotator ability to follow ...
10:46 <@kanzure> ... neural ‘wires’ reliably and over long distances as well as the ability to detect synaptic contacts. Our results suggest that the BROPA method can produce a preparation suitable for the reconstruction of neural circuits spanning an entire mouse brain."
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13:07 <@kanzure> .title http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122283
13:07 < yoleaux> PLOS ONE: Rational Design of Antibiotic Treatment Plans: A Treatment Strategy for Managing Evolution and Reversing Resistance
13:08 <@kanzure> " By using growth rates as a measure of fitness, we computed the probability of each amino acid substitution in each β-lactam treatment using two different models named the Correlated Probability Model (CPM) and the Equal Probability Model (EPM). We then performed an exhaustive search through the 15 treatments for substitution paths leading from each of the 16 genotypes back to the wild type TEM-1. We identified optimized treatment ...
13:08 <@kanzure> ... paths that returned the highest probabilities of selecting for reversions of amino acid substitutions and returning TEM to the wild type state. For the CPM model, the optimized probabilities ranged between 0.6 and 1.0. For the EPM model, the optimized probabilities ranged between 0.38 and 1.0. For cyclical CPM treatment plans in which the starting and ending genotype was the wild type, the probabilities were between 0.62 and 0.7. ...
13:08 <@kanzure> ... Overall this study shows that there is promise for reversing the evolution of resistance through antibiotic treatment plans."
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13:24 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure
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14:07 < kanzure> maaku: welcome back
14:08 < maaku> thanks
14:08 < maaku> computer snafus
14:08 < kanzure> ah
14:08 < maaku> figured i needed to be back on irc for all the btc block size bullshit though
14:09 < kanzure> did you see gavinandresen posting "i will not read any arguments or contrary opinions unless they are in the form of a pull request" statement?
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14:16 < maaku> kanzure: yes, and I purposefully did not mention that I have some working code for the proposal i just made
14:17 < maaku> he is free to make himself irrelevant. he's doing a great job of it so far
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14:41 <@fenn> galantamine looks like a good substitute for the nootropic effects of nicotine without most of the negative side effects of nicotine
14:42 <@fenn> it's pretty expensive now but i don't see any reason why it should be... it's just the extract of daffodil bulbs
14:42 <@fenn> another source, lycoris radiata looks pretty cool too, and has nice mythology to go with it
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14:45 <@fenn> who wouldn't want to eat the extract of red spider lily that grows in hell
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18:42 < n_bentha> hey
18:42 < n_bentha> paperbot http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896841114000055
18:42 < n_bentha> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896841114000055
18:42 < n_bentha> !seen paperbot
18:42 < n_bentha> .seen paperbot
18:42 < yoleaux> I saw paperbot 8 May 2015 15:09Z in ##hplusroadmap: <paperbot> ConnectionError: HTTPConnectionPool(host='localhost', port=1969): Max retries exceeded with url: /web (Caused by <class 'socket.error'>: [Errno 111] Connection refused) (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/adapters.py", line 375, in send)
18:43 < n_bentha> paperbot, come back
18:44 < n_bentha> kanzure...where's paperbot?
18:49 < kanzure> broken
18:49 < kanzure> fix the bug and i'll redeploy
18:49 < n_bentha> bug?
18:50 < n_bentha> i can't fix the bug. i'm a med student T_T
18:50 < n_bentha> where r the software engineers?
18:50 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
18:50 < kanzure> medicine doesn't involve software yet?
18:50 < kanzure> this isn't the 1960s
18:58 < n_bentha> it involves a bunch of clicking on yes / no buttons following prompts
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19:07 < n_bentha> my vpn isn't working on my laptop
19:07 < n_bentha> my vpn works on my desktop it drives me NUTZ
19:07 < n_bentha> anyway, i'll look it up at home on my desktop
19:07 < n_bentha> thx kanzure. hope paperbot gets fixed sometime soon
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19:25 < namespace> kanzure: Well as it stands programming is too finicky and annoyingly implemented for 'normal people' to learn it.
19:25 < namespace> It's a huge time sink.
19:26 < namespace> What this means is you have biology labs where almost nobody knows programming.
19:26 < namespace> And stuff like that.
19:56 < dingo> i always encourage young people who enjoy computers to major in something like biochemistry or mechanical engineering or something *non*-computery, and they can excel in their field with just the most basic programming skills
19:56 < dingo> sets them apart from their colleuges
19:57  * namespace would need to major in anything before he could do that ;)
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22:09 < maaku> dingo: that's good advice
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22:22 < dingo> thanks. It's hard to excel in IT, hell I've programmed over 20 languages in the past 15 years, written my fair share of good code, but i'm still around the "above-average" teir.
22:22 < dingo> If i worked in some other career, and used my computer skills, however, I could be the most invaluable person in any team
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--- Log closed Sat May 09 00:00:06 2015