--- Log opened Sat Jun 06 00:00:33 2015
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05:52 < kanzure> that's a terrible graph though
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05:56 < ParahSailin> wait, why do they give newborns hep b vaccine, isnt that an std?
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05:57 < kanzure> probably because it's the only time they suspect they can get it to them
05:57 < kanzure> probably people don't do their 10 year follow-ups or nothing
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08:07 < archels> .tell maaku re experiment specification languages, this might not be exactly what you're looking for but might serve as some inspiration  http://co.mbine.org/specifications/sed-ml.level-1.version-2.pdf
08:07 < yoleaux> archels: I'll pass your message to maaku.
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08:50 < kanzure> you guys are so boring
08:51  * heath cartwheels for kanzure's entertainment
08:53 < kanzure> https://github.com/google/ios-webkit-debug-proxy
08:54 < kanzure> http://www.libimobiledevice.org/
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10:00 < kanzure> https://www.academia.edu/12297791/Open_Access_Meets_Discoverability_Citations_to_Articles_Posted_to_Academia.edu
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10:35 < kanzure> hmm
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10:42 < maaku> archels: hey thanks. it's good to compare with to make sure there aren't any gaps in the design
10:42 < yoleaux> 15:09Z <archels> maaku: re experiment specification languages, this might not be exactly what you're looking for but might serve as some inspiration  http://co.mbine.org/specifications/sed-ml.level-1.version-2.pdf
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10:59 < delinquentme> kanzure,
10:59 < delinquentme> pizza
10:59 < delinquentme> yum
11:01 < eudoxia> wow coincidence i just had pizza
11:02 < delinquentme> OMGGG
11:02 < delinquentme> universe is telling us things!!!
11:02 < maaku> i could use some pizza
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11:19 < kanzure> sent an email to aubrey
11:19 < kanzure> been a while anyway
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11:58 < fenn> ParahSailin: hep b is transmitted mother to child
12:00 < fenn> i guess it's common enough that the false negative outweighs the harm of the vaccine itself
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12:04 < kanzure> long-duration cryonics should require a male and female partner
12:04 < kanzure> as a rule
12:05 < kanzure> also, possibly in duplicate, because having a failure where you end up with only one male or only one female is a good opportunity for the end of the human species
12:05 < kanzure> also you should ship frozen sperm and oocytes and stuff
12:05 < eudoxia> not necessarily
12:05 < eudoxia> you should just cryopreserve some women and shitloads of sperm
12:06 < kanzure> i have decided that most practical cryonics setups are going to require basically the same setup as a cryonics spacecraft
12:06 < kanzure> because if you wake up a million years in the future you might find that the planet's atmosphere is incompatible with human life
12:06 < kanzure> or that nobody is there to greet you
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12:08 < fenn> a stealth spacecraft
12:08 < kanzure> possibly; but i mean, hide a few of them a kilometer under the ocean or something. because radiation and stuff.
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12:09 < eudoxia> related, this is why i can't accept this concept of a 'galactic goldilocks zone'
12:10 < eudoxia> ie: life can't exist near the core because radiation
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12:10 < kanzure> atmosphere helps with radiation
12:10 < eudoxia> a few hundred kilometers of water ice would stop anything except maybe a GRB right next door
12:11 < fenn> don't even need ice
12:11 < fenn> just interesting geology
12:12 < fenn> i think Luna counts as interesting in a cosmic sense
12:12 < fenn> i bet it's rare to have such a large moon
12:13 < eudoxia> that moon can only reliably stop radiation to things living inside of it
12:13 < fenn> but it influences the climate of earth by preventing the poles from drifting constantly
12:14 < kanzure> damn i knew there was a good reason to not blow up the moon
12:14 < eudoxia> yeah but that's not about radiation
12:14 < kanzure> well maybe i can get to blow up one of jupiter's moons
12:15 < eudoxia> i have a friend who had a wacky plan of crashing phobos into mars to trigger it to terraform or something
12:15 < fenn> why do you want to blow up a perfectly good moon
12:15 < kanzure> ego trip
12:15 < eudoxia> fenn: first person to blow up a moon
12:15 < kanzure> ... i have very specific requirements for feeding my ego.
12:15 < fenn> you think too small, human
12:16 < maaku> eudoxia: furthermore, in terms of the fermi paradox, intelligent life is likely to go immediately to where there is matter + energy -- the galactic core
12:16 < kanzure> that's going to get pretty crowded
12:16 < eudoxia> maaku: i hadn't thought of that
12:16 < fenn> the core is a big place
12:18 < fenn> the supermassive black hole would be useful as a gravitational lens for astronomy
12:18 < kanzure> also for computation, according to black hole enthusiasts
12:18 < fenn> i dont see how that would work
12:18 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/black-holes/Are%20black%20hole%20starships%20possible%3f.pdf
12:18 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/black-holes/Black%20holes:%20attractors%20for%20intelligence%3f.pdf
12:18 < kanzure> whoops not the first one
12:19 < kanzure> page 6 section 2.5
12:19 < maaku> kanzure: long duration spaceflight almost never makes sense, except maybe between galaxies
12:20 < maaku> someone else leaving later but moving faster will beat you to the destination
12:20 < kanzure> you have to leave at some point
12:21 < kanzure> even if you send equipment first
12:21 < kanzure> you will still have to be transmitted by light or something eventually
12:21 < maaku> right, but at typical interstellar distances it is pretty pointless to leave until you can get travel times down to say 40 years or so
12:21 < kanzure> actually i think that there's a good chance that you can beat others by picking a destination that they don't know about
12:22 < fenn> robert forward's starwisp looked like a feasible short-term solution to interstellar travel. you couldn't fit anything larger than a thick hair on board, but that's probably enough
12:22 < kanzure> maaku: ah but we were talking about cryonics
12:22 < kanzure> maaku: my idea for low-risk practical cryonics happened while i was ranting to you in here
12:22 < kanzure> a few months ago
12:23 < fenn> breed humans for cryonics survivability?
12:23 < kanzure> i'm still doing the math on how much money i want to pursue that
12:23 < eudoxia> i think project valkyrie is pretty sound, at least in general principles. equations are conspicuously absent and the author's a known liar
12:23 < kanzure> fenn: animals first
12:23 < eudoxia> (for interstellar travel)
12:24 < fenn> kanzure: and my standard rebuttal is ... some animals already survive freezing
12:24 < eudoxia> even more viable of magnetic monopoles exist and have masses that allow us to mass-produce them in circumstellar supercolliders
12:24 < kanzure> fenn: which ones?
12:24 < fenn> some fish or something
12:24 < kanzure> fenn: we have no practical cryonics demonstrations to my knowledge
12:24 < maaku> kanzure: ?
12:24 < kanzure> fish survive a frozen-like state, not cryonic storage
12:24 < kanzure> but yes fish are a good example
12:24 < kanzure> maaku: you said 40 years.. because human lifespan. but i'm saying we should use cryonics.
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12:26 < maaku> i said 40 years because technological & industrial progress timescales. you leave on a 80 year flight path, and the people left behind will spend 20 years making more antimater or whatever and send a crew on a 40 year flight path to get there in 60yr, before you
12:26 < maaku> but i'm curious about your cryonics breakthrough
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12:27 < kanzure> i was literally typing some angry ranty reply to you on irc and it turned out to be a good idea
12:27 < maaku> kanzure: have you seen this? lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/m0n/even_better_cryonics_because_who_needs_nanites/
12:27 < maaku> (LW, I know...)
12:28 < kanzure> hadn't seen it, his method looks far more complex than mine
12:29 < kanzure> whoops it wasn't you, sorry
12:29 < kanzure> it was gwillen
12:29 < eudoxia> >mummified brain or the one preserved in formalin would be enough evidence to restore its original state
12:29 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-02-01.log
12:30 < eudoxia> 2090: black and white pictures restored to true color with complete certainty -_-
12:30 < kanzure> 20:38 < kanzure> also it would be helpful if selling human organs was doable
12:30 < kanzure> 20:38 < kanzure> because you could build up a reserve
12:30 < kanzure> 20:38 < gwillen> (sorry, we have "kidneys stored for a year", but those kidneys were not then used in live animals; and we have "kidneys cooled, then used in live animals", but not after long-term storage)
12:30 < kanzure> 20:38 < kanzure> ahead of organ demand
12:30 < kanzure> 20:38  * gwillen nods
12:30 < kanzure> 20:41 < kanzure> i think that even if modern-day cryonics does not work that we should be working on selecting populations of important organisms (humans, pets, whatever) for those members of the population that are capable of freezing, thawing and surviving
12:30 < kanzure> anyway that's where the idea struck me
12:31 < kanzure> i have since put more thought into and have some ideas for a large-scale project to achieve this in 5-20 years
12:31 < maaku> i'm not sure i understand --- breeding cryo-safe humans?
12:32 < kanzure> animals
12:32 < kanzure> humans are the risky part, and requires ivf or other techniques
12:32 < kanzure> using animals is far faster anyway and means we could look at the results sooner
12:32 < fenn> maaku just reading the first comment on that lw post, "As your phase diagram above shows, when the pressure is sufficiently high during cooling the expansiuon of water is prevented, but ice formation is not. What happens is that other allotropes of ice form which do not require expansion....Crystal formation inside cells results in devastating ultrastructural disruption - far worse than would
12:32 < fenn> occur if ice formed outside cells first, grew slowly and dehydrated the cells, and finally resulted in a vitrified cellular interior"
12:33 < maaku> fenn: yeah that's Mike Darwin, president of Alcor
12:33 < kanzure> yes we know who fucking mike darwin is -_____-
12:33 < kanzure> that dog kidneys have survived cryostorage is absolutely amazing for us
12:34 < fenn> i thought the point of changing the pressure was to rapidly shift from one point on the phase diagram to another, which doesn't leave enough time for large crystals to form
12:34 < maaku> fenn: correct
12:34 < fenn> but he's talking about just keeping it under pressure
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12:34 < maaku> i'm not sure if mike either didn't understand that point, or just didn't address it
12:34 < maaku> ultimately I think we need experimental data here
12:35 < kanzure> experimental data would help
12:35 < kanzure> (in general)
12:35 < maaku> kanzure: re: genetic engineering of cryo-safe populations, why bother? isn't cryonics a stop-gap?
12:36 < kanzure> could you elaborate please
12:37 < punsieve> my understanding of current cryonics stuff is that the person will have died and then gets stored to be healed at a later time - your goal is to design humans who while still living can be frozen with a virtual guarantee of surviving the process.
12:38 < fenn> for some value of "design"
12:38 < maaku> i mean, cryonics is a medical intervention of last resort that becomes less necessary as we fix these stupid failing bodies of ours, and the timeline for genetically engineering humans is similar to the timeline of fixing ageing
12:38 < kanzure> yep, starting with small animals though
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12:38 < kanzure> and also, yes about the design word... and also i think technically law requires me to say they are dead... because laws.
12:38 < kanzure> maaku: well with these insights cryonics is far easier and more imminent than fixing aging
12:38 < punsieve> so, then.. in your plans are you going to try repeatedly freezing the subjects that survive the first time?
12:38 < kanzure> and also, who the hell wants to sit around for 500 million years waiting to get to the next galaxy supercluster?
12:39 < fenn> i thought you wanted to be a dyson sphere
12:39 < fenn> our relationship has been a lie!
12:39 < kanzure> punsieve: animals that survive the first time would be given a long and wonderful life. genetically similar counterparts may be tested in repetition, yeah. until one survives multiple journeys.
12:39 < kanzure> fenn: i certainly wouldn't mind a dyson sphere or two
12:40 < fenn> BE a dyson sphere
12:40 < kanzure> well sometimes you have to go where you won't be disturbed for that
12:40 < kanzure> the point is that it gives you options
12:40 < kanzure> maaku: aging may be impractical to fix for hundreds of years
12:41 < kanzure> in fact i would expect brain uploading to work before aging can be fixed, heh
12:41 < fenn> well if the bandwidth of a light beam isn't enough you can shoot pellets of DNA and other memory storage devices at some fraction of light speed much more easily than trying to revive a human
12:41 < kanzure> yep, that's certainly true
12:42 < eudoxia> kanzure: same
12:42 < maaku> kanzure: meh, if you're talking about an intergalactic future then i don't plan on having a biological body
12:42 < kanzure> that's also acceptable
12:43 < maaku> but of course it would be a great benefit to find out how to safely cryopreserve humans
12:43 < kanzure> the hard part is the resuscitation, not the preservation
12:43 < maaku> and who knows, maybe genetic therapy would let you apply it to existing people
12:43 < kanzure> i would estimate that as a low probability, but yeah
12:44 < fenn> once we work the bugs out of gene therapy
12:44 < kanzure> (only low because chaining lots of hard things together means less likely success)
12:45 < punsieve> hmm...
12:45 < kanzure> i think that in the absence of brain uploading and the absence of a fix for aging, the only thing we have left is this cryonics plan
12:45 < kanzure> so i'm a little amused by maaku brushing it off :-)
12:45 < fenn> you could create a master race of frozen undead zombies that takes over the world, and we would have to pray to the lord of light to save us
12:46 < kanzure> i think you mean the space pope
12:46 < fenn> (i'm sure someone got the reference)
12:47 < maaku> kanzure: it's not a fix for you or me, and i don't see it being widely deployed before longevity escape velocity is achieved, by my priors, so "meh"
12:47 < kanzure> had someone been less selfish in the past they would have started this cryonics project immediately
12:47 < kanzure> even in the 70s that would have been a huge head start, because by now we would hvae working cryonics
12:47 < kanzure> none of this is technologically complex- with the exception of the genomics and bioinformatics required, which probably would not have been available until the 80s
12:48 < kanzure> maaku: there is a good chance that *nothing* gets done in our time on this planet. and it's important to do everything possible to prevent that.
12:48 < kanzure> "our time" as in yours and mine
12:49 < kanzure> with this method there is a good chance that in 100 or 200 years there will never be anyone dead ever again
12:49 < kanzure> unless they want to
12:49 < kanzure> or accidents
12:49 < fenn> successful cryonics resuscitation looks potentially more complicated than reversing the aging process in the first place, so i'm betting on fixing aging
12:50 < kanzure> what complications do you foresee?
12:50 < fenn> uh, like, everything
12:50 < kanzure> bodies mostly take care of themselves-- if the organs were able to fix themselves, then why wouldn't the other body parts?
12:50 < maaku> kanzure: don't misunderstand my reaction -- fenn just summarized my opinion. if you can pull it off, AWESOME, but I just value the expected utility of working on it as less than, say, SENS
12:51 < kanzure> i am quite surprised
12:51 < kanzure> yeah let me just dig up a holy grail and then we can all shit in it
12:51 < fenn> it's not a holy grail, it's a stopgap
12:51 < fenn> even if you can freeze and revive people, they'll still die of old age right after that
12:51 < kanzure> time travel! :waves his arms furiously:
12:52 < fenn> being in a coma for 1000 years! :waves tentacles madly:
12:52 < kanzure> yes and?
12:52 < fenn> isn't that basically what you're proposing?
12:52 < kanzure> well a coma is where you.. eh you already know the difference.
12:52 < fenn> not really
12:52 < fenn> what's the difference?
12:53 < kanzure> cryostorage has no body function
12:53 < fenn> who cares?
12:53 < kanzure> you're not aging
12:53 < kanzure> you are aging in a coma
12:53 < kanzure> so you'd care if you want to be in the future
12:54 < fenn> if you have guaranteed failsafe foolproof anti-aging technology you could do it
12:54 < kanzure> coma?
12:54 < kanzure> why would you need to be in a coma though
12:54 < fenn> to skip forward
12:54 < kanzure> oh whatever; sure you could also just upload your brain and pause your software to skip forward.
12:55 < fenn> well i'll just do that then :P
12:55 < kanzure> i'm surprised that you think that's more practical
12:55 < kanzure> it's certainly more desirable sure
12:56 < kanzure> i am trying to make the best out of the technology of this era
12:57 < fenn> so they can preserve kidneys through the freezing and thawing process and stitch them into a body without a kidney; why not the other organs?
12:58 < kanzure> also it's fine to treat this as a worst case backup plan; it's true that it sort of sucks out of all the other options, but it's also the only one that will definitely work if we start it now, and in 100 years that's the last generation that has to die, the rest can just get stored until someone shows up that fixes aging or whatever.
12:58 < kanzure> fenn: i think they didn't try the other organs
12:58 < kanzure> also i think there are some organs that we haven't figured out how to transplant?
13:00 < kanzure> wikipedia says "Some organs, such as the brain, cannot be transplanted." -_-
13:00 < fenn> eh i just think nobody's tried
13:00 < fenn> i definitely read something about a head transplant operation in the late stages of planning
13:00 < kanzure> "Organs that can be transplanted are the heart, kidneys, liver, lungs, pancreas, intestine, and thymus"
13:00 < kanzure> reproductive organs are notably absent
13:01 < kanzure> or the stomach
13:01 < kanzure> (i think we can get along without a stomach?)
13:01 < fenn> maybe nobody needs a stomach transplant
13:02 < kanzure> also no muscles listed
13:02 < kanzure> wait isn't skin an organ. why isn't that listed.
13:02 < fenn> so it's probably not necessary to cryopreserve the entire body if you can do a brain transplant, because you could just clone them, wait 20 years and do a brain transplant from the cryo-preserved brain
13:03 < fenn> organs are squishy floppy things
13:03 < fenn> usually full of tubes and goo
13:04 < kanzure> for whatever reason i thought we had trouble with liver transplants
13:04 < TMA> except that the body is part of the self awareness -- so unless you want to have a persistent out of body sensation
13:04 < fenn> oh pff
13:04 < kanzure> yeah i don't care
13:04 < fenn> it doesnt matter if it's the original body or a clone
13:05 < punsieve> Liver transplants are difficult
13:05 < eudoxia> i remember a video where darwin claimed head-only was safer, since whole body means the liver's attached to the body and emitting autolytic enzymes during preservation
13:06 < kanzure> theoretically small animal work would get you to a liver that does not do that
13:07 < kanzure> fenn: i think that a brain transplant is a more difficult operation than whole body cryoresuscitation
13:07 < kanzure> although most of it is probably fine motor skills which can be performed trivially with robotics
13:08 < kanzure> probably computer vision would be the difficult part there
13:08 < fenn> TMA: when splicing together a severed spinal cord the nerves don't line up, so you will have to learn how to walk again, and sensations will be wrong for a while
13:09 < kanzure> also that might require some research in neuroscience, because i don't think that presently works?
13:09 < fenn> it sort of works now
13:09 < kanzure> i mean the spliced nerve healing thing
13:09 < kanzure> hmm
13:09 < kanzure> then why do we still have paralyzed peeps
13:09 < fenn> polyethylene glycol cell fusion
13:09 < fenn> it's a new thing
13:09 < kanzure> hmph
13:09 < kanzure> linkz plz
13:12 < fenn> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4322377/
13:12 < yoleaux> The “Gemini” spinal cord fusion protocol: Reloaded
13:12 < kanzure> there was also that liquid metal paper a while back
13:12 < fenn> canavero is definitely pushing some boundaries
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13:14 < kanzure> for bonus points an interesting project with the selective breeding facility would be the following:
13:15 < kanzure> you could take an animal that is able to survive cryoresuscitation and then pick the ones that heal afterwards more rapidly
13:15 < maaku> kanzure: what pushed me to neuro was how more efficient they can be at cryopreservation of just the brain
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13:15 < kanzure> then you increase the constraints there so that eventually yvou end up with a mouse that is able to thaw directly after being removed from liquid nitrogen
13:15 < maaku> but now i'm paranoid that they'll end up doing a destructive upload instead, so I'm really hoping not to test it
13:15 < kanzure> what's wrong with destructive uploads? if they work
13:16 < kanzure> 3scan.com's whole business plan is destructive uploads :-)
13:16 < maaku> they are incompatible with my view of consciousness (I know, OT for this channel). *I* wouldn't live on
13:17 < kanzure> is that a religious view
13:17 < fenn> uh, can't you specify what sort of procedures you're willing to undergo?
13:17 < maaku> no, it's a common sense view, except aparantly not all that common...
13:17 < maaku> fenn: in theory I suppose. if you trust them to observe it
13:17 -!- Madplatypus is now known as Metaplatypus
13:18 < fenn> well you have to trust them anyway; someone could just throw your head in the trash otherwise
13:18 < kanzure> do you believe you're the same "consciousness" after anesthesia, after sleep, and after a coma?
13:18 < fenn> you could tattoo "NO DESTRUCTIVE UPLOAD" on your forehead :P
13:19 -!- Metaplatypus is now known as MetaMonotreme
13:19 < maaku> kanzure: maybe, yes, maybe
13:19 -!- MetaMonotreme is now known as MetaMammallianMo
13:19 < kanzure> is it possible for you to be wrong about the middle one?
13:19 -!- MetaMammallianMo is now known as PoliticsPlatypus
13:19 < kanzure> or is this one of those no-evidence things
13:20 < maaku> kanzure: when you sleep your brain doesn't shut off. you just don't form memories
13:20 < maaku> so that one I'm sure about
13:21 < kanzure> http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1
13:22 < punsieve> but we sometimes remember our dreams as though they actually happened... Is that not forming new memories?
13:22 < kanzure> yes he's wrong about the memory thing
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13:23 < fenn> i often forget things that happened a few minutes after waking up, was i conscious?
13:23 < TMA> maaku: although I have the same self preservation viewpoint (with the exception of 'yes' after anesthesia without brain damage) I have some doubts that in a strict sense my conscousness is the same as the one a minute ago
13:24 < kanzure> there is zero evidence of the existence of consciousness
13:24 < maaku> punsieve kanzure : it was a broad generalization that is obviously not always true
13:24 < maaku> but if kanzure is seriously suggesting that sleep is equiv to being brain dead, i don't know what to say
13:24 < kanzure> uh dude you said fucking consciousness
13:24 < kanzure> not brain death
13:25 < kanzure> who cares if a neuron dies in your brain if you can replace it?
13:25 < maaku> kanzure: i'm talking about personal identity, the cogito
13:25 < kanzure> oh, yeah i don't believe in that either
13:25 < kanzure> i think all current evidence suggests that the brain is able to think about that idea, though
13:25 < maaku> kanzure: so i'll just create an exact replica of you in my lab. do you expect to experience what it experiences?
13:25 < kanzure> yes, i expect that replica to function
13:26 < maaku> that wasn't the question i asked and you know it
13:26 < kanzure> i expect that from the time that you make the perfect replica, i will be experiencing that replica's sensory input, i also expect another me running around
13:26 < kanzure> the fork doesn't matter to me at all
13:27 < maaku> the one running around will have no clue that the other one in my lab existed at all, right?
13:27 < kanzure> go on?
13:27 < maaku> likewise, that's how i'd feel about my destructive upload
13:27 < kanzure> are you sure? it seems we feel veyr different about it :-)
13:28 < TMA> kanzure: which "I" was the one you were speaking of? kanzure-0 [the model] or kanzure-1 [the replica]?
13:28 < kanzure> well, i was talking as the replica for a moment, because it was a replica of me from the prior moment
13:28 < kanzure> i figured i would just pick one
13:29 < kanzure> i fully expect a biological kanzure to still exist though- he promised it was non-destructive
13:29 < kanzure> whoops i mean a non-replica
13:30 < abetusk> http://www.oshwa.org/2015/06/02/your-input-needed-for-open-source-hardware-certification/
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13:30 < kanzure> i might have some concerns about the finances of the replica or how it is going to live its life- it seems like it might have difficulty, since i wouldn't share my money with it
13:30 < kanzure> (although i might share money. maybe.)
13:31 < kanzure> i have lived with the idea of copies of copies for at least a decade now, i am quite at peace with this concept
13:32 < fenn> doesn't the copy have an equal claim on "your" money?
13:32 < kanzure> that's a law question
13:32 < kanzure> realistically i think teaming up with him would be useful, so we could probably work out an agreement
13:33 < fenn> cut to 50 years in the future, a world devastated by war between kanzure's clones
13:33 < kanzure> wait til you see what just two of me can do
13:33 < fenn> 1.5 times as much!
13:34 < kanzure> yea something about the square of the number of communication channels... throw in metcalfe's law or something and you'll have a fiesta.
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13:37 < kanzure> alright i'm gonna bite the bullet and try the genetic opera, wish me luck
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13:43 < punsieve> ... Repo?
13:44 < kanzure> changed my mind already, i think lunch is a better idea
13:48 < punsieve> At best it is linner
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13:52 < fenn> watch the original aeon flux animated shorts instead
13:53 < heath> http://www.cybercoders.com/insights/magazine/salaryguide/
13:54 < fenn> ugh cybercoders, what a bunch of spammers
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14:08 < maaku> kanzure: I'm quite ok with the concept of copies. i'm just a sefish bastard that prefers *this* copy over the others
14:08 < maaku> (and fully expect my clone to say the same thing about himself)
14:09 < kanzure> go on? i don't understand how that influences your previous statements.
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14:23 < pasky> i would love to have my copies, i would expect them to likely reach the same conclusion about what stuff is worth working on and it sure could use more people working on it ;)
14:25 < kanzure> your copies might hate you too, which you need to be okay with
14:26 < streety> just how similar are we considering these copies to be?
14:27 < kanzure> somewhere between exact replicas and children that sort of look like you
14:27 < streety> that's quite a wide range
14:27 < kanzure> haha
14:27 < kanzure> yes that's true
14:27 < kanzure> i mean nobody minds a few misplaced neurons
14:29 < streety> I think it would depend on which neurons and what they decided to do wherever they found themselves
14:30 < kanzure> "if your child turned into a walking incarnation of godwin's law, would you still .."
14:30 < kanzure> godwin's strawman
14:35 < kanzure> fenn: a dyson sphere does not seem like an optimal computing superstructure
14:41 < kanzure> oh well i suppose it depends on how far out you're building it
14:50 < streety> worried about radiation?
14:51 < kanzure> no i mean compared to alternatives; a dyson sphere the size of a solar system takes a long time, and there are other ways to get lots of energy in the mean time
14:55 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0TaYhjpOfo
14:55 < yoleaux> A Compilation of Robots Falling Down at the DARPA Robotics Challenge - YouTube
14:55 < kanzure> jrayhawk: ^
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15:03 < fenn> well stars are probably not the most efficient fusion reactors, so if you have to physically surround the fusion reaction in order to extract energy from it, probably you want to build some other structure and suck hydrogen out of the star for processing
15:04 < fenn> but when people talk about dyson spheres they're mostly talking about the order of magnitude of matter and energy involved
15:05 < abetusk> http://www.oshwa.org/forums/forum/discussion-of-open-source-hardware-certification-proposal/
15:05 < genehacker> they can easily burn hydrogen though
15:05 < abetusk> something maybe some people here have opinions on
15:06 < fenn> if efficiency is defined as energy produced per (time*volume)
15:06 < fenn> i guess that's power, not efficiency
15:07 < fenn> specific power
15:29 < kanzure> i'm still concerned about the lack of privacy of the first uploads or emulations
15:29 < kanzure> memorizing private keys wont really work
15:30 < kanzure> er, which i was thinking of for some reason because i was wondering what software to run with all that dyson sphere energy
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15:36 < kanzure> fenn: also it's hard to clone humans at the moment with current technology; it's easier if you have a womb available, but those require bodies too. so the head transplant or brain transplant plan doesn't quite work for long-term or long-distance cryonics.
15:38 < kanzure> well i mean it doesn't work yet
15:38 < kanzure> or is less likely to work because that step is presently missing
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15:44 < kanzure> and also if you are able to ship a working person with a working womb that far, then why would you bother with the head transplant part
15:51 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utK-ek2USZw
15:51 < yoleaux> 3Scan: Slicing brains with Meteor -- February Devshop SF - YouTube
15:52 < kanzure> are they really using meteor >:(
15:53 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5EmFKF8rkU
15:53 < yoleaux> Todd Huffman: The Razor's Edge - YouTube
15:53 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzTg7hHyVRU
15:53 < yoleaux> Ignite Phoenix #3 - Slicing Brains Very Quickly - YouTube
15:53 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9zvcKP2noU
15:53 < yoleaux> Todd Huffman - Wide and Deep - YouTube
15:53 < kanzure> gah his fly-through video isn't on youtube
15:59 < kanzure> http://eyewire.org/
16:02 < kanzure> apparently that game is something sebastian seung has made
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16:38 < kanzure> hmm maybe i should send some email to darpa http://100yss.org/
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16:46 < jrayhawk> i like how comically huge those people think north america is
16:48 < jrayhawk> oh i see, they took a google earth screenshot from too low an altitude and then copy-pasted that in their moon picture
16:52 < jrayhawk> 5000 miles is a perfectly good distance for the moon
16:53 < jrayhawk> mile high tides will make for some good surfing
16:53 < kanzure> i am reminded of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpatdRd2LGk
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17:08 < fenn> .title
17:08 < yoleaux> Airplane Sounds ~ Pull Up (Boeing 747-249F) - YouTube
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17:28 < fenn> delinquentme you like this kinda stuff www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjNssEVlB6M&t=1m
17:29 < delinquentme> fenn, i didnt know i did until just now
17:29 < delinquentme> awesome.
17:29 < delinquentme> mucho gusto
17:30 -!- punsieve [~androirc@173-170-176-33.res.bhn.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:30 < fenn> this music video brough to you by kim stanley robinson
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17:47 < fenn> "despite the stunning degree of radiprotection inhaled hydxrogen gas proivides, as well as evidnce that it is pluripotent protect against ischemia-reperfusion injury, cancer and a variety of other free radical mediated pathologies (http://www.molecularhydrogeninstitute.com/studies/), no one I know has shown the slighest interest in it."
17:52 < kanzure> hahahaha holy shit i love my friends
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18:08 < delinquentme> kanzure, ?
18:08 < delinquentme> fenn thats a rather complex statement
18:09 < delinquentme> and the usage of pluripotent is a bit distracting to me .. .but should it be?
18:10 < jrayhawk> this is an interesting site
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18:10 < fenn> yes the wording is odd but the point is that molecular hydrogen confers huge amounts of antioxidant activity and radiation protection
18:11 < fenn> this is also highly relevant to cryonics resuscitation
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18:34 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yakushima/AerovatorMT   The Aerovator is a transorbital megastructure for launching payloads into Earth orbit and beyond.[1] It consists of a long ribbon rotating around a central hub on the Earth's surface. Aerodynamic lift elevates the ribbon above the atmosphere, allowing the outer parts to attain orbital velocity in near vacuum.
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18:41 < fenn> "As opposed to other space transportation infrastructure projects, the Aerovator can be deployed entirely from the Earth's surface. The ribbon is played out from the rotating hub and lifts itself up aerodynamically as it is extended. The hub will need to rotate much faster initially than in the fully extended state, and the propulsion point will move outwards during extension."
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19:25 < fenn> well this is kinda vague http://autodeskresearch.com/projects/cyborg
19:31 < fenn> .title http://www.vimeo.com/45504767
19:31 < yoleaux> Bio-Computation on Vimeo
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19:43 < fenn> so the general idea is to do simulation at nano-scale with synthetic biology and bacterial materials and couple that to macro-scale simulation of the material in a traditional cad system, then go back and fiddle synbio parameters automatically in order to optimize macro scale performance
19:43 < fenn> this is what audodesk "project cyborg" is about, i guess
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20:38 < streety> is anyone aware of any technologies showing promise of advancing protein research to the extent we've seen with nucleic acids in recent years? Our reliance on antibodies seems like a major impediment
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21:23 < kanzure> depends on what you mean by "protein research"
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21:51 < kanzure> here is some elon musk propaganda http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2012-09-13/features_elonmusk38__01__405inline.jpg
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22:03 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9672171
22:03 < yoleaux> Show HN: Fleetzen – “Uber for moving large items” | Hacker News
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22:04 < kanzure> "So I work for a startup in Hong Kong doing something like this. We're called GoGoVan, and doing really well in the region http://gogovan.com.hk/en What's perhaps different is that with GoGoVan you can ride with your stuff."
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22:40 < kanzure> fenn: you should go to the "SF bitcoin devs" event tomorrow
22:41 < kanzure> er, "san francisco bitcoin devs seminar" event
22:47 < fenn> i hate bitcoin
22:49 < fenn> does uber do trucks/cargo vans?
22:49 < kanzure> the reason you should go is not because of bitcoin
22:49 < kanzure> it's because gmaxwell and maaku
22:49 < fenn> oh
22:50 < kanzure> the telepath and commander spontaneous solution
22:51 < fenn> i imagine literally everyone else there will be trying to talk to gmaxwell
22:51 < kanzure> then pick on maaku
23:04 < maaku> yeah i'll be there for once
23:04 < maaku> i usually don't get up to the city for these things
23:04 < maaku> but i make an exception this time ;)
23:06 < maaku> fenn: http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bitcoin-Devs/events/222975224/
23:07 < kanzure> i told him to read http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-bitcoin-selection-cryptography/
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23:50 < nell> hi
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--- Log closed Sun Jun 07 00:00:34 2015