--- Log opened Sat Aug 22 00:00:05 2015
--- Day changed Sat Aug 22 2015
00:00 < justanotheruser> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.4546v1.pdf
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05:54 < kanzure> beep boop
06:02 < pasky> baap
06:03 < kanzure> ai things?
06:10 < pasky> it's difficult :/
06:12 < kanzure> pasky: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/language/How%20can%20we%20explain%20the%20emergence%20of%20a%20language%20that%20benefits%20the%20hearer%20but%20not%20the%20speaker%3f.pdf
06:12 < kanzure> and more generally http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/language/Language%20evolution%20and%20human%20development.pdf
06:26 < pasky> the results of the first paper don't seem terribly surprising
06:26 < pasky> but nice that someone checked
06:26 < kanzure> the technique matters more than the results
06:27 < kanzure> getting some form of language evolution out of a pile of randomness is quite useful
06:27 < kanzure> .title http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=31840
06:27 < yoleaux> A Test Case for Astroengineering
06:27 < kanzure> .title http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=31831
06:27 < yoleaux> Examining SETI Assumptions
06:28 < kanzure> .title http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=1806
06:28 < yoleaux> Dyson Spheres: Hoping to Be Surprised
06:30 < kanzure> "powerful laser beams emitted by dyson spheres" http://eg.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oaeg-view-article&egart_uid=48fe49fe47202
06:31 < pasky> kanzure: I'm a bit sceptical about how much that matters; getting genetic algorithms working on toy models is often easy, but they never scale up to something useful (except special cases like generic numerical optimization)
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07:30 < xtalmath> kanzure: you agree that the open source movement is slowly making a public "how to bootstrap technology/industry/society" ?
07:31 < xtalmath> i.e. these are useful works in the case of a low probability hypothetical disaster scenario?
07:32 < xtalmath> it seems reasonable that large nation states have such bootstrap procedures, but keep them secret, in case of war with EMP's ?
07:32 < xtalmath> secret because the nation state with fastest bootstrap "wins"
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07:34 < xtalmath> so the bootstrap is not just the publically known FEMA, or bootstrapping government/authority, but probably a database and toolset to bootstrap industry as well?
08:12 < pasky> if you want to bootstrap technology/industry/society, you need just fucking common human ingenuity, smarts and hard work; it's likely that similar proportion of people from all areas of human work survives, printouts and components survive
08:12 < pasky> why would you need a howto?
08:12 < pasky> or what would be written in it?
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08:38 < xtalmath> pasky: I am not talking about the requirements, but about the speed of recovery
08:39 < xtalmath> obviously ingenuity, smarts and hard work are enough, that is how humans arrived where we are now
08:39 < pasky> and how can you speed things up with a howto?
08:40 < xtalmath> pretty obvious, putting together ikea furniture is much easier then designing it first
08:42 < xtalmath> pasky: its like OS design before open source OSes, its easier to start with a known working reference code base, than with only computer science papers on OS design
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08:48 < xtalmath> the ikea comparison is quite suitable, the goal of building furniture is not showing off your 733t working knowledge of furniture building, but to be able to quickly assemble it
08:48 < pasky> I can maybe agree what you say if it's framed as "open source stuff allows people to get a lot wider experience with... various stuff"
08:48 < pasky> as your main asset is actual experience and knowledge the survivors have
08:50 < pasky> but then the second problem is that "open source movement" is seriosuly vain buzzword outside of computing; maybe there are no open source cars but a lot of people who dig cars would be able to build one from spare parts
08:51 < xtalmath> pasky: well, that is pretty easy to index before catastrophe. but the goal of rebuilding quicker than a supposed "enemy" would cause them to prepare actionable plans for bootstrapping, not just identifying which people would have a good shot of recovering technological state
08:51 < xtalmath> pasky: oh, you are considering the civilian perspective
08:51 < pasky> enemy, what enemy?
08:52 < xtalmath> pasky: I was just speculating that large nation states have a different mindset
08:52 < xtalmath> exactly
08:53 < xtalmath> pasky: the same enemy for which we need nuclear weapons I suppose
08:54 < xtalmath> pasky: I don't want to get into a quarrel wheither nukes and MAD and so on make sense, just observing since large nation states behave according to the assumption that MAD makes sense, it seems probable they keep secret technological bootstrap plans
08:54 < pasky> so if you use them, the world ends; if someone survives, it's a different world and I think the reward for the state to plan it is zero, because the state is over anyway
08:55 < xtalmath> pasky: I think we agree there, but these nation states might not
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09:09  * dingo coughs
09:09 < dingo> alan kay rants often on the same topic
09:10 < dingo> so if you haven't watched any of his recent rants, i mean, lectures, google up a few
09:10 < dingo> that is, on how to FOUND new industries
09:20 < JayDugger> Pasky, you could look up some the declassified US estimates from the 1950s on casualties for a full scale nuclear exchange of the period.
09:21 < JayDugger> At least then the authors assumed the state would survive. That might have counted as patronizing their audience, but it gives you a starting point.
09:21 < kanzure> i think you mean to be speaking to xtalmath, not pasky
09:22 < xtalmath> kanzure: it appears to me he does intend to adress pasky
09:22 < JayDugger> He can eavesdrop, but I meant that in answer to pasky's "...I think the reward for the state to plan it is zero, because the state is over anyway"
09:23 < JayDugger> Which is also an assumption.
09:23 < kanzure> k
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09:25 < JayDugger> And for your "powerful beams emitted by Dyson spheres, " http://www.server-sky.com/FuturePossibilitiesV01
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10:31 < xtalmath> even if the nation states today consider execution of all out war to be unsurvivable for the state, it might consider levels of disobedience on both sides (so that a few large cities remain unbombed in both states)
10:33 < xtalmath> so I still see _in my interpretation of the mindset of nation states_ a motivation to maintain bootstrap plans, and to keep them secret (otherwise the post apocalyptic advantage of actionable rebuilding & reconquest is freely donated to the other state)
10:33 < xtalmath> this does not mean I agree with keeping them secret
10:34 < xtalmath> it just amounts to emergent behaviour where the true conflict is not between the nation states, but between nation states and the world populations
10:35 < gradstudentbot> Which calculator do you need? I have a TI-83 and a TI-84.
10:40 < kanzure> there should be a python reimplementation of tor to convince all the python programmers to work on privacy-enhancing technology things
10:43 < xtalmath> kanzure: do you think the RONJA optical communications links would still be legal in most jurisdictions if they used laser diodes instead of LED's?
10:43 < kanzure> ronja stuff is illegal?
10:44 < xtalmath> I like the RONJA project, but the data rates are too low to actually encourage people to set RONJA's on their higher floor window sinks and connect to the neighbourhoods
10:44 < gradstudentbot> My experiment was working a second ago, but now it doesn't even work.
10:45 < xtalmath> RONJA is legal when using LED in most jurisdictions (I think), I just wonder if that would still be true if they switched to lasers, which can be modulated much faster
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10:46 < kanzure> i am not sure why you are asking me about legality
10:46 < xtalmath> a redesign with lasers, and an open design for an quasi automated factory manufacturing RONJA might be an idea
10:47 < kanzure> ronja person was in here a while back. strange little fellow. very paranoid.
10:47 < xtalmath> kanzure: I thought perhaps you would know, ... well its rather illegal to point lasers in the sky, with the pilots etc
10:48 < kanzure> "clock"
10:48 < kanzure> apparently he has been having an ongoing dispute with the brlcad people for a long time
10:49 < kanzure> strange source of drama
10:49 < kanzure> not sure wtf
10:49 < xtalmath> I dont see the relation between ronja and brlcad?
10:49 < kanzure> the person.
10:49 < xtalmath> ok
10:49 < kanzure> "clock"
10:58 < pasky> yeah, clock is interesting personality
10:59 < pasky> (he was working on js support in links when i used to hack elinks; the links guys didn't like me very much)
10:59 < pasky> i guess we get along now though
11:00 < pasky> hmm, come to think about it i forgot to fund his water filtering project though i promised...
11:07 < xtalmath> so I am trying to understand design rules, for design rule checking DRC. I understand that for a certain "node" of manufacturing processes, the subset of design rules that relate to spatial dimensions are directly related and measurable from manufacturing process
11:08 < xtalmath> i.e. draw fine features and inspect with SEM to determine what sizes can controllably be manufactured
11:09 < xtalmath> but what I don't understand is how other design rules are established. I can imagine the ring oscillator with clock dividing to find max switching frequency
11:10 < xtalmath> but how are things like max fan out measured for a "node"/set of lab equipment?
11:10 < xtalmath> i.e. the electrical design rules, as opposed to the spatial design rules of size
11:13 < xtalmath> does anyone have a good text on "litmus tests" for establishing DRC parameters for "new" nodes/processes (where new is not new in the sense of international breakthrough, but personal breakthrough, like DIY)
11:14 < xtalmath> the GNU electric package can do DRC, so I guess I should read the doc and look at the file format for design rules, and then for each parameter look up what the measurement is?
11:22 < xtalmath> heh Electric manual "Unfortunately, it is not possible to edit design rules associated with the technology. However, you can add design rules to the XML files produced by the technology editor. To do this, examine the XML files for some existing technologies (for example, CMOS) and copy these lines to the new XML file, editing where appropriate for layer names and spacings."
11:23 < xtalmath> ah section 8.10 of the user manual
11:27 < xtalmath> ok Electric defines DRC to be only spatial parameters
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11:30 < xtalmath> ah ok, it's called ERC electrical rule checking... ok so DRC+ERC is what I would call DRC=GRC+ERC (Design = Geometrical + Electrical)
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11:48 < xtalmath> hmm, there's Technology specific (or node dependent) settings in some other places in the software... every node-dependent setting (numeric editable field in GUI) should correspond to a measurement for your technology
11:49 < xtalmath> but the manual does reference articles and books, which is great, and I assume from reading those, the measurement to do would become obvious
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11:50 < gradstudentbot> Is this going to count as my ethics training?
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14:07 < kanzure> https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2015/08/a-history-of-life-extensionism-in-the-twentieth-century-is-now-freely-available-online.php
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15:28 < kanzure> from jcline: "What I learned from mechatronics contests long long ago was that the ME's often beat the EE's..  because the ME's didn't bother trying to invent something new, they took boring off the shelf junk and brute forced the problem to make a working project.  While the EE's were busy slipping schedule due to unforeseen design hiccups with the brand new innovative stuff (often in over their heads), and sometimes never got the ...
15:28 < kanzure> ... project running before the deadline, or weren't capable of finishing that particular design regardless of time."
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15:29 < kanzure> for him that's saying a lot because he definitely has that "electrical engineering pride" thing going on for himself
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15:49 < kanzure> "The Raikolin would have a lot of reasons to react in horror if someone pointed them to Earth, but one of the bigger ones is that the person who invented a hypothesis is responsible for testing it. Or at least someone in the same field, who has been debating it for years and whose entire career depends upon it. This makes no more sense than asking criminals to judge their own trials, or having a candidate count the votes in their own ...
15:49 < kanzure> ... election. Having any strong opinion on the issue at hand is immediate disqualification for a consultant scientist to perform a confirmatory experiment."
15:49 < kanzure> "The consultant scientist is selected by the investors in the prediction market. Corporate governance type laws are used to select a representative from both sides (those who will profit if the theory is debunked, and those who will profit if it is confirmed). Then they will meet together and agree on a consultant. If they cannot agree, sometimes they will each hire their own consultant scientist and perform two independent experiments, ...
15:49 < kanzure> ... with the caveat that a result only counts if the two experiments return the same verdict. As the consultant plans the experiment, she receives input from both the pro- and the con- investors. Finally, she decides upon an experimental draft and publishes it in a journal."
15:49 < kanzure> http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/15/things-i-learned-by-spending-five-thousand-years-in-an-alternate-universe/
15:59 < fenn> at least he put that DMT to good use
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16:43 < nmz787> lastfuture: was just talking about their magnet implant and building some signalling electronics for it in ##electronics
16:43 < lastfuture> hi
16:44 < lastfuture> I even made a video of it yesterday, let me get the link
16:44 < lastfuture> a demo circuit is working
16:44 < nmz787> lastfuture: so you want to detect when your finger comes near the sensor, or you want to pulse your finger and feel it.... or both?
16:44 < lastfuture> here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF0iO7wJ8ZI&index=1&list=PL62WGOuLAnP689ivIVBmRQDwKC4QE69Zv
16:44 < kanzure> .title
16:44 < yoleaux> Cyborg Finger - YouTube
16:44 < lastfuture> no, I want to use the coil to signal something to my finger so I can feel it there
16:44 < nmz787> a bord just flew gently into my window ;?
16:44 < kanzure> why not just glue the magnet on the finger?
16:45 < lastfuture> kanzure: way less sensitive with the magnet outside of the finger
16:45 < nmz787> lastfuture: did you at least know enough to get it coated with biocompatible stuff?
16:45 < nmz787> lastfuture: what are the dimensions of what finally went in?
16:45 < lastfuture> nmz787: yeah it's properly parylene coated (injection molded)
16:46 < lastfuture> a rod around 1mm in diameter and 3mm long
16:46 < lastfuture> the heaviest I can lift with it is an AA battery, but only just
16:46 < nmz787> hmm, I feel like that would annoy the hell out of my
16:46 < nmz787> me*
16:47 < nmz787> like feeling a splinter that has just gotten stuck deep inside and your body has callussed over it
16:47 < lastfuture> it's on the outside in my left hand ring finger, so it's out of the way and only a little annoying sometimes. It's in there for a year now
16:47 < nmz787> idk
16:47 < nmz787> do you feel it when typing?
16:48 < lastfuture> nope, only if I concentrate on it and only because of its inertia
16:48 < lastfuture> I'm not pressing on it when typing
16:48 < nmz787> or gripping a car steering wheel?
16:49 < lastfuture> also not a problem. the only time it's annoying is when gripping luggage handles
16:49 < lastfuture> but I've learned to just not put pressure on that finger, so no biggie
16:49 < lastfuture> the every day joys outweigh the annoyances by far
16:51 < lastfuture> anyway... if my finger is inside the coil it's working fine, but that's essentially still tethered. I'd like untethered as in ability to feel the coil's signals within a certain range outside my pocket and away from the center of the coil
16:51 < nmz787> joys such as?
16:52 < nmz787> ah, hmm, so you need to shape the magnetic field
16:52 < nmz787> hmm
16:52 < lastfuture> joys such as feeling somebody hasn't unplugged the conference phone because the power brick radiates a mean electromagnetic field ... or being able to feel the induction cooker switching, or the cashier de-magnetizing the anti theft stickers
16:52 < lastfuture> or just playing with paper clips
16:52 < nmz787> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PVjpTGKvq4
16:52 < yoleaux> Thinking Outside the box: Shaping the magnetic field around a drive coil - YouTube
16:53 < lastfuture> basically enjoying having a sense more than everybody else :D
16:53 < nmz787> have you heard the theory that pidgeons can sense magnetic fields?
16:54 < lastfuture> yes, there are strong indications that they can, like the homing pigeon that got lost around a lake in yosemite (I think) that has a very weird magnetic field
16:54 < lastfuture> unfortunately with my implant I'm not able to discern magnetic north
16:55 < lastfuture> a sense of permanent north would be cool ... but I could use my coil for that and have it signal me how far I am off facing north by reading a magnetometer
16:55 < nmz787> that video was only worth skipping through with the mouse
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16:56 < nmz787> hmm, there seems to be some differences in shielding options for oscillating magnetic fields versus non changing directions...
16:57 < lastfuture> mine would be oscillating
16:57 < nmz787> I'm not sure if turning a coil on and off would could as oscillating or not
16:57 < nmz787> or if you'd need an H bridge to actually reverse the current flow
16:58 < lastfuture> well definitely oscillating between gnd and some voltage. that's still oscillation
16:58 < lastfuture> my test setup works equally well as a coil connected to an audio amp
17:00 < lastfuture> but maybe the h bridge could be the key to a stronger signal still ...
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17:09 < nmz787> so it's not strong enough with the thickness of the clothes/pants?
17:09 < nmz787> what amount of current is it getting now?
17:09 < nmz787> have you hooked up a meter?
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17:13 < nmz787> abetusk: you developed meowCAD?
17:13 < lastfuture> since it's a pulse wave I'm sending through it I'm not sure how to accurately measure the current. I don't own an oscilloscope ... it should be able to draw no more than 20 mA since it's driven directly by a GPIO pin so far ... but I should probably change that
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17:14 < nmz787> lastfuture: yeah 20mA doesn't seem like too much... you could easily add a MOSFET to buffer that
17:14 < nmz787> MOSFET or some normal transistor
17:14 < lastfuture> that's what I was thinking as I wrote my answer. I just bought a couple of logic level mosfets of which I could use one
17:14 < abetusk> nmz727, yep!
17:16 < lastfuture> nmz787: so ... the battery's power capability is the limit.
17:16 < lastfuture> hm
17:18 < nmz787> er, hmm, couldn't you just have a cap for storing charge just before your transistor?
17:19 < lastfuture> possibly but I'll have to balance current with power efficiency. I don't want to lug around a car battery or anything
17:20 < lastfuture> Ideally I'll get through the day with a decently small LiPo pack
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17:21 < nmz787> well why not add sensing to/around the transmitter
17:21 < nmz787> that way you only turn it on when your finger is near
17:22 < nmz787> you can use the coil itself most likely, and setup your MCU to sense the back EMF
17:22 < lastfuture> good idea! would I use a hall sensor for that?
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17:23 < lastfuture> you sure? the coil would only detect a change, so I'd have to be moving my finger continuously to tell it that I'm still there and it wasn't a false positive ... and especially after protecting my circuit with diodes I don't think that's the way to go
17:25 < lastfuture> maybe a simple reed switch might even do the trick
17:28 < nmz787> well you would turn on or off on edges
17:29 < nmz787> so on when your finger came into the field
17:29 < nmz787> and off when it left the field
17:29 < gradstudentbot> That paper is clearly bullshit.
17:29 < nmz787> if you wanted to pulse the coil, then you could sense when it was off.
17:30 < lastfuture> I'm not sure how false-positive proof it would be, and I could only remove my finger when the coil was not pulsing or it would stay on. I'm not convinced it's a feasible solution, sorry
17:31 < nmz787> would be worth a shot, it's how they do BLDC motor control sometimes
17:31 < nmz787> they do it when the motor/coil is on
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17:31 < nmz787> so i guess it depends on how sensitive the measured signal is to the finger movement
17:31 < lastfuture> but that follows a predictable pattern with predictable current ranges etc.
17:32 < nmz787> well unless there is other stuff in the environment that is rapidly changing... yeah
17:32 < nmz787> otherwise what are you thinking to do?
17:32 < nmz787> just have a switch?
17:33 < nmz787> or only turn it on when you want to send something?
17:33 < lastfuture> well I only need to brush by somebody with a purse that has a magnetic clasp or something and it might falsely assume I put my finger close
17:33 < nmz787> are you thinking sending audio from your phone or something?
17:33 < nmz787> huh
17:34 < lastfuture> well a reed switch could work. I'd make and break the contact with the proximity of my finger ... no chance a falling edge would be missed accidentally and the signalling kept running
17:35 < nmz787> yeah but then you'd need to make sure the sensor could distinguish your finger vs the electromagnet you're pulsing
17:35 < nmz787> or subtract it out
17:36 < lastfuture> I might be able to subtract it out via averaging or something
17:37 < lastfuture> the signals i want to send are re-interpreted signals of other sensors ... like my orientation relative to magnetic north or the current amount of UV light ... I'd convert that into faster or slower pulses ... or maybe for numeric values simply a number of pulses relative to the value, then a pause, repeat
17:38 < lastfuture> essentially with the magnet I gained a 6th sense. I can add virtual senses on top of that
17:39 < lastfuture> in an unobtrusive way. no looking on a screen, no audible signals
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17:41 < nmz787> 'feel the music'
17:42 < lastfuture> I did that. it's pretty amazing. And when I put the finger to my ear I can also hear it
17:43 < nmz787> ah
17:43 < nmz787> yeah
17:43 < nmz787> you could just use a headphone
17:43 < nmz787> earphone
17:43 < nmz787> hmm
17:43 < lastfuture> but where's the fun in that?
17:43 < nmz787> i wonder if ppl have put them in their toes
17:46 < lastfuture> it makes little sense because the nerves are not very dense there and it's hard to avoid pressure there
17:47 < lastfuture> (see Penfield's somatosensory homunculus)
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18:02 < nmz787> genitalia?
18:02 < nmz787> information superhighway!
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18:05 < nmz787> .title https://vimeo.com/136764796
18:05 < yoleaux> GLASS on Vimeo
18:05 < nmz787> glass 3d printing
18:06 < nmz787> http://hackaday.com/2015/08/22/mits-glass-3d-printer/
18:07 < gradstudentbot> Wasn't that a Nature paper?
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18:12 < lastfuture> gotta go. my bed is calling my name
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18:21 < nmz787> night !
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18:49 < fenn> http://www.server-sky.com/DoomIsUnsustainable "It is far easier to ship bits than joules with microwaves - data transmission can easily tolerate 90 dB losses, while space-to-grid power beaming fails with more than 10 dB loss."
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19:38 < nmz787> https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/684078main_12188C_RevisedforPosting_Battel_HVEngineering_Workshop_DAY1.pdf
19:39 < nmz787> vacuum gaps 3kV/mm
19:40 < nmz787> recommended, breakdown 20-40kV depending on stuff...
19:40 < nmz787> hmm, CO2 isn't too terrible
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19:44 < nmz787> pg 77 'Eroding National Capabilities'
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19:51 < nmz787> pg 117 "What constitutes a ‘space level’ HV connector?"
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22:06 < kanzure> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/540756/how-astronomers-could-observe-light-sails-around-other-stars/
22:19 < kanzure> .wik tuskegee syphilis experiment
22:19 < yoleaux> "The Tuskegee syphilis experiment (/tʌsˈkiːɡiː/) was an infamous clinical study conducted between 1932 and 1972 by the U.S. Public Health Service to study the natural progression of untreated syphilis in rural African-American men in Alabama. They were told that they were receiving free health care from the U.S. government." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment
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23:12 < JayDugger> 631u77e4
23:13 < JayDugger> 742i88o5
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--- Log closed Sun Aug 23 00:00:49 2015