--- Log opened Sun Sep 06 00:00:02 2015 00:10 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jsdvaapfwnbudyxi] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 00:29 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76794-brmb10-2-0-cust21.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:29 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@86.21.44.22] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:59 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@86.21.44.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76794-brmb10-2-0-cust21.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:08 -!- Guest82907 is now known as maaku 01:27 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 02:40 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@18-222-11.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:55 -!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-57-55.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: austerity chic brand destruction] 03:50 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:59 -!- sheena [~home@d154-20-225-71.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:20 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:20 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:21 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 04:27 -!- c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n 04:37 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gomdngjolqnpyqei] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:42 -!- lastfuture [~Peter@HSI-KBW-46-223-1-121.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:56 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:08 -!- lastfuture [~Peter@HSI-KBW-46-223-1-121.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:10 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:18 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76794-brmb10-2-0-cust21.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76794-brmb10-2-0-cust21.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:28 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rexvahmxhcrspgyn] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 05:36 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:36 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:15 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76794-brmb10-2-0-cust21.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: sleeeep] 06:17 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76794-brmb10-2-0-cust21.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:34 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:39 -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|away 07:05 -!- fleshtheworld- [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:3c7c:4823:1eb4:50d4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:13 -!- sheena [~home@d154-20-225-71.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:31 < archels> .g "The Company of Biologists" 07:31 < yoleaux> http://ipv6.google.com/sorry/IndexRedirect?continue=http://www.google.com/search%3F%26q%3D%2522The%2520Company%2520of%2520Biologists%2522%26btnI%3D&q=CGMSECoBBPgCAXIwAAAAAAAIaucYl56xrwUiGQDxp4NLwwQ57TWzuQ-6K4wO3w9GMaz_3x4 07:32 < archels> The Company of Biologists is a not-for-profit publisher and UK charity. Established in 1925, The Company aims to promote research and study across all branches of biology. 07:32 -!- sheena [~home@d154-20-225-71.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:40 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76794-brmb10-2-0-cust21.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: sleeeep] 07:41 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76794-brmb10-2-0-cust21.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:42 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:46 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:57 < archels> "The colorbars for all subplots A–D are perceptually balanced (Niccoli, 2010)." 07:58 < archels> spotted in the wild. :o 08:13 < kanzure> borp 08:40 < kanzure> .title https://www.reddit.com/r/LessWrong/comments/3jsc0g/scott_adams_confused_boltzmann_brains_with_a/ 08:40 < yoleaux> Scott Adams confused Boltzmann Brains with a solipsistic version of the simulation hypothesis. Kinda amusing. : LessWrong 08:40 < kanzure> this community is worthless 08:46 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:49 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:49 < andytoshi> that's very irritating, i'm surprised gwern can put up with it 08:53 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:55 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:00 < FourFire> kanzure, "xkcd.com/774" 09:00 < FourFire> also "Could you be a little more smug, please? We need it for an experiment." 09:07 < kanzure> "Datahand patents are from <1995, so are now expired." 09:07 < chris_99> have you tried one of those datahand things? 09:08 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:09 < FourFire> looks interesting, does it have a steeper learning curve than touchtyping? 09:12 < chris_99> i want to try one a stenotype 09:12 < chris_99> s/one/ 09:14 < kanzure> i think jaydugger has tried a data hand but no i haven't 09:14 < kanzure> not very interested either, it doesn't seem particularly faster.. 09:14 < chris_99> yeah someone on HN mentioned about it being slowish 09:14 < chris_99> although that would depend on the typist 09:15 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:15 < FourFire> Im interested in the relative learning curve compared to standard keyboards 09:15 < FourFire> if it is faster a lower profeciency then it 09:15 < FourFire> 's a productivity tool for slow typers 09:16 < FourFire> (like myself) 09:17 < FourFire> If you're near or over 200WPM, then maybe the easiest speed boost would be a decent BCI 09:17 < kanzure> uh? most brain-computer interfaces have a bandwidth of like a few bits per second at most. nowhere near an improvement in speed. 09:18 < FourFire> that's why I said decent 09:18 < chris_99> has anyone looked into EMG in a slightly related note, re. inner speech 09:18 < FourFire> all of the one's I've seen are terrible from a UI perspective 09:18 < kanzure> "ui" is not the reason why they are slow 09:18 < FourFire> chris_99, not yet, I will once I get my BCI project underway 09:18 < Stskeeps> chris_99: best ones are EMG with electrodes on multiple points face and throat, so not very market friendly 09:19 < chris_99> yeah Stskeeps 09:19 < chris_99> that's what i meant round the neck 09:19 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:19 < Stskeeps> more a fan of non-audible murmur recognition, while not as cool as BCI, it serves a lot of the same purposes.. 09:20 < Stskeeps> ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5dVILReCHQ ) 09:20 < kanzure> .title 09:20 < yoleaux> NAM (Non-Audible Murmur) Microphone from the Nara Institute of Science and Technology : DigInfo - YouTube 09:20 < gradstudentbot> I think the centrifuge is broken. 09:20 < FourFire> yeah, whatever the means, a thing which can increase the potential productivity of the top percentiles of hackers without substantial cost is very worth making 09:20 < chris_99> hmm they are speaking in that demo though 09:20 < Stskeeps> chris_99: sure, but with sub-whisper volume 09:21 < Stskeeps> so others cannot hear it, like a silent prayer 09:21 < Stskeeps> or murmuring to yourself about idiotic coworkers 09:21 < chris_99> lol 09:21 < chris_99> i thought EMG seems more interesting, in the papers where theres no speaking and people are just reading a book in their head 09:21 < chris_99> and it can extract a small no. of words 09:22 < kanzure> "that's why i'm always humming c minor while i'm reading" 09:22 < FourFire> someone I know mentioned using toe muscles in conjunction with emg to... well type 09:22 < Stskeeps> it is, but until we get everybody to wear guy fawkes masks with electrodes inside, or it becomes socially acceptable to have EMG tattoo stickers on your throat and face.. 09:22 < chris_99> haha kanzure 09:22 < Stskeeps> FourFire: oh that's new 09:23 < FourFire> we have a whole set of digits which we mostly don't use etc. 09:23 < chris_99> heh interesting, do they wiggle their toes then to type 09:23 < FourFire> I haven't seen it in action 09:24 < FourFire> The guy had some fun trolling coworkers, typing hands free... 09:24 < FourFire> "how are you typing" "with my mind" etc. 09:25 < FourFire> Stskeeps, well, how long did it take for bluetooth handsfree devices to become acceptable 09:26 < FourFire> now if the productivity impact is larger than that, how long will it take then? 09:26 < Stskeeps> FourFire: google glass shows people are a bit picky about the face :) 09:26 < Stskeeps> tue 09:26 < Stskeeps> true 09:26 < gradstudentbot> I have this really good idea. I just can't get it to work. 09:26 < FourFire> Stskeeps, IIRC GlassHoles was about the camera and covert on/off control 09:26 < Stskeeps> FourFire: i think it was more than that, personally, camera is just one aspect 09:27 < FourFire> mhm, glass probably wasn't a very great product usability wise, but then it was a prototype 09:28 < maaku> co-worker of mine wanted to go around taking abrupt in-your-face shots of Glass wearers in public, and immediately post to twitter as #2CanPlay 09:28 < maaku> i still think it's a good idea 09:28 < kanzure> what's wrong with abrupt-in-your-face shots? i don't get it. 09:29 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: austerity chic brand destruction] 09:30 < maaku> Most people don't appreciate random strangers catching you off-guard, taking a photo, and sharing it with the world, all without your permission (yet they'll happily do that via Glass) 09:30 < kanzure> maaku: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afm-DL75E00 09:31 < maaku> man, i watched that whole thing waiting for someone to be caught picking their nose 09:31 < maaku> severely disappointed 09:38 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-czxqjuoqmcjagdma] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:41 < FourFire> maaku, seen that short of RMS eating toe goo? 09:41 < FourFire> while lecturing no less 09:41 < maaku> haha wow, no 09:58 < kanzure> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2015/09/monster-pumps.html "The new finding is that local metabolism also goes as local biomass density to the power of roughly 3/4, over at least three orders of magnitude. This implies that life in dense areas like jungles is just slower and lazier on average than is life in sparse areas like deserts. And this implies that the ratio of predator to prey biomass is smaller in jungles compared to deserts. - ... 09:58 < kanzure> ... See more at: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2015/09/monster-pumps.html#sthash.RTYBaWVt.dpuf" 09:58 < kanzure> ah those fuckheads use javascript copypaste spam, robin hanson deserves to die 10:00 < justanotheruser> I believe richard stallman dancing to soulja boy is on topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pube5Aynsls 10:22 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:28 < ParahSailin> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/04/the-xenotext-works/ 10:30 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:40 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gomdngjolqnpyqei] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:55 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-155-69.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:04 -!- CaptHindsight [~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:15 -!- drethelin [drethelin@71-87-115-157.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:11 -!- CaptHindsight [~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:30 -!- drethelin [drethelin@71-87-115-157.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:34 -!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-57-55.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:56 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-czxqjuoqmcjagdma] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:33 -!- c0rw|away is now known as c0rw1n 13:34 -!- m0b [sid24725@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfzbkouzphtboosd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:39 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:49 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:53 < kanzure> hm 14:00 < heath> ? 14:00 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15 < heath> who is physically building the first dna synthesizer, nsh, fenn, CaptHindsight? 14:16 * nsh emotes unknowledge 14:16 < heath> not seeing notes in dna/synthesis 14:20 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:f817:f62:a5b0:2afb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:05 < FourFire> heath, kanzure has been discussing it a lot, inkjet printer and so on 15:06 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@18-222-11.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19 < justanotheruser> first? Hasn't it already been built by IBM? First for ##hplusroadmap? 15:30 < kanzure> probably not ibm 15:38 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:50 -!- math3 [uid54897@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bicltcjdqgwqnkwt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:23 < delinquentme> probability of making money from playing games: LoL or SC2 ? 16:23 < delinquentme> which do you think has more earning potential 16:30 < justanotheruser> hmm, for some reason I imagined IBM made the POSaM 16:31 < yashgaroth> ISB 16:32 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:33 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:37 < kanzure> eh i'm sure ibm has done something biotech-ish.. probably.. 16:39 -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 16:41 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@74.61.157.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47 < justanotheruser> considering going to montreal 16:50 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04 < kanzure> justanotheruser: everyone else is.. 17:05 < kanzure> but too many andrews already 17:10 < justanotheruser> hmm 17:10 < justanotheruser> peolstra 17:10 < justanotheruser> all I've got 17:11 < justanotheruser> though amiller may be andrew 17:11 < kanzure> amiller is an andrew 17:11 < justanotheruser> also don't hilight poelstra and let him see how I butchered his name 17:12 * justanotheruser loads asic-faq.pdf to see how far off he is 17:12 < andytoshi> justanotheruser: i highlight on 'andrew' and 'poelstra' :) 17:12 < andytoshi> you got it tho 17:13 < justanotheruser> heh 17:13 < andytoshi> (btw don't worry about highlighting me on 'andrew', that triggers constantly and i need to remove it anyway) 17:13 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-czfknlfaryycqfaa] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:14 < justanotheruser> Considering going, though I will probably end up telling the same "Oh, I'm just another user" joke 4000 times 17:14 < kanzure> you don't have any other material? 17:15 < justanotheruser> yeah, but the first step to introducing yourself is mentioning your alias 17:29 < kanzure> justanotheruser: they stopped selling tickets. just show up and walk in. 17:30 -!- wrldpc1 [~ben@bai859b91ac.bai.ne.jp] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:46 < justanotheruser> and pay $300 17:46 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfhugzcjovikluea] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:47 < kanzure> i mean they stopped selling a few minutes ago 17:47 < kanzure> (for some reason i am part of the organizing committee? i don't understand) 17:47 < justanotheruser> Can I still get in with the $300? 17:48 < justanotheruser> "places are limited" 17:48 < justanotheruser> It says after Sep 9th, so I assumed I could procastinate until then 17:49 < kanzure> now would be a good time to email them about it 17:49 < justanotheruser> will do 17:59 -!- math3 [uid54897@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bicltcjdqgwqnkwt] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:05 * heath assumes kanzure will be taking notes 18:10 < heath> nothing like reaching your limts on google business and your partner is at burning man for a week 18:30 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hveprzixceebpywp] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:46 -!- sheena [~home@S0106c8be196316d1.ok.shawcable.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:56 < kanzure> .title http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2015/08/06/0956797615594896 18:57 < yoleaux> Sustained Attention Across the Life Span in a Sample of 10,000 19:00 -!- math3 [uid54897@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dhktrwszqjoaldiw] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:03 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:f817:f62:a5b0:2afb] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:03 -!- fleshtheworld- [~fleshthew@108-240-244-194.lightspeed.frsnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:04 -!- m0b_ [sid24725@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pbpzmlgpncpkklqy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:08 -!- _hanhart_ [~hanhart@static.101.25.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:12 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: gradstudentbot, _hanhart, m0b 19:12 -!- m0b_ is now known as m0b 19:12 < kanzure> _hanhart_: hi 19:12 < kanzure> and m0b 19:27 -!- padz_ [~yenatch@131.252.130.250] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:29 -!- _hanhart_ is now known as _hanhart 19:30 -!- mf1008_ [~mf1008@unaffiliated/mf1008] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:31 -!- padz [~yenatch@131.252.130.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:31 -!- night [~Adifex@unaffiliated/adifex] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:31 -!- mf1008 [~mf1008@unaffiliated/mf1008] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:31 -!- Bakkot [~Bakkot@prime-mover.stanford.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:31 -!- mf1008_ is now known as mf1008 19:31 -!- padz_ is now known as padz 19:31 -!- night [~Adifex@unaffiliated/adifex] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:32 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:32 -!- Bakkot [~Bakkot@prime-mover.stanford.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:33 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:34 -!- ParahSailin [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:47 -!- balrog_ [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:48 -!- drewbot__ [~cinch@ec2-54-158-232-64.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:50 -!- ParahSailin_ [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:54 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: balrog, ParahSailin, drewbot_ 19:54 -!- balrog_ is now known as balrog 20:00 < kanzure> https://cireneikual.wordpress.com/2015/09/03/htsl2-evolving-the-neocortex-and-human-like-reinforcement-learning/ 20:01 -!- Darius [~quassel@108-203-14-66.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:01 -!- AmbulatoryC0rtex [~Ambulator@173-31-155-69.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:02 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:04 -!- drewbot__ [~cinch@ec2-54-158-232-64.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:04 -!- fenn [~fenn@unaffiliated/fenn] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:04 -!- fenn_ [~fenn@unaffiliated/fenn] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:04 -!- drewbot__ [~cinch@ec2-54-158-232-64.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:05 -!- sandeep_ [~sandeep@111.235.64.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:05 -!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-155-69.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:05 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-74-96-98-64.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:13 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:19 -!- sandeep_ [~sandeep@111.235.64.135] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:25 -!- Darius [~quassel@108-203-14-66.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44 -!- AmbulatoryC0rtex [~Ambulator@173-31-155-69.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:58 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn 21:02 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2602:306:35fa:d500:6433:151c:27e7:d423] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:16 < kanzure> so much snarks 21:20 < fenn> obviously setting up a snark arbitration exchange is the correct thing to do 21:21 < kanzure> one of the snark people wrote a snarks library called "snarkfront" 21:22 < kanzure> which i think would make a good name for an improv group 21:22 < fenn> snarktank 21:22 < fenn> get a bunch of investors to pillory bad business plans 21:23 < kanzure> draft of my next weekend's montreal presentation http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/scaling-review-draft.v2.pdf 21:25 < fenn> it would be good to have an html version of your notes so the rest of the world doesn't have to read every mailing list post ever 21:26 < kanzure> output was yaml bookmarks not notes 21:26 < fenn> good enough 21:27 < kanzure> i am putting off "make the yaml bookmarks presentable to mere mortals" until after i am done powerpointing 21:27 < fenn> yeah 21:28 < fenn> but you should put a link to it in your powerpoint (on the last slide) 21:28 < justanotheruser> so how long does it take you to go through every single 6.0 post? 21:28 < kanzure> justanotheruser: ~10 hours? 21:28 < fenn> instead of "Thank You." in giant letters 21:28 < kanzure> fenn: my obligatory joke comment for the "upload everyone to a cloud, simulate their transaction activity, problem solved" is to mention that "ralph merkle actually has some plans here, so make of that what you will"... since everyone knows ralph merkle for the wrong reasons in this community. 21:29 < justanotheruser> I guess you don't need to look at all the posts based on the title 21:29 < kanzure> justanotheruser: correct 21:29 < kanzure> "HELP I HAVE GCC PROBLEM" is not likely to contain cosmological wisdom 21:29 < fenn> well markets are just computation devices right 21:29 < fenn> where did my bag of snarks go 21:29 < kanzure> next to your bag of triangles 21:30 < kanzure> or is that something else.. 21:30 < fenn> it was under the mattress next to the bag of fucks 21:31 < fenn> jk i would never use a mattress 21:32 < kanzure> markets are not very interesting computation devices 21:33 < fenn> i much prefer Cyberchile or whatever the communists had in 1973 21:33 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn 21:33 < kanzure> merkle should have made up a fake origin story about his puzzles, like "well i was thinking about how to make molecular nanotechnology" or something. 21:36 < kanzure> or "i was trying to reassemble a cryonically stored person from small parts" 21:37 < fenn> how to disassemble and reassemble a camel to fit through the needle-eye gates of heaven 21:39 < kanzure> "And one night I was contemplating how it is that... What was the problem that I was considering specifically? I think I was trying to figure out the problem of you're trying to log into a computer in some secure fashion and the computer security has been compromised and has since been sealed up again. I was trying to figure out how to re-establish secure communications. And as I was thinking about it, it basically occurred to me that I ... 21:39 < kanzure> ... was unable to prove that full disclosure of the complete state both of the computer and of the person communicating with it (and presumably they would have a terminal with which they were communicating with a computer) it occurred to me that I was unable to prove that under those circumstances, security would necessarily be compromised. So I began trying to figure out, was there some way of showing clearly that if you compromised ... 21:40 < kanzure> ... both computer and the terminal which was communicating with the computer, whether you could then prove that in the absence of some secure channel, some secret channel like a courier, whether you could prove that in fact security had been compromised. And as I thought about it, I realized that not only could I not prove it, it was not even clear that it was correct. So I began thinking about it, and then over the next few days I ... 21:40 < kanzure> ... figured out the puzzles technique." 21:40 < kanzure> well that's fairly straightforward and disappointing 21:40 < kanzure> from http://web.archive.org/web/20070311022139/http://www.itas.fzk.de/mahp/weber/merkle.htm 21:40 < kanzure> "The first realization, of course, was that if both the computer and the terminal were deterministic, then of course you could compromise the system, if you knew the initial state and you knew the traffic over the communications line. So I fairly quickly concluded that there had to be some random component. And then it was simply a question of how to utilize that random component in a way which would provide confusion to the eavesdropper ... 21:40 < kanzure> ... that would grow more rapidly than the confusion of either the two parties communicating." 21:42 < justanotheruser> dank all the things meme 21:43 < justanotheruser> "send me your backlog" 21:43 < fenn> is dank a verb now? 21:44 < justanotheruser> no, it's an adjective 21:44 < justanotheruser> dank "all the things" meme 21:47 < fenn> archive fail: http://the-digital-reader.com/2015/07/16/digital-archival-site-longacess-shuts-down-youll-need-to-find-a-new-way-to-gift-your-ebook-collection-to-your-heirs/ 21:48 < kanzure> the interviewer just totally tuned out the moment that ralph merkle mentioned nanotechnology -____- 21:51 < kanzure> justanotheruser: it's called a draft for a reason, you know... 21:51 < justanotheruser> it seems fine except you joke about DHTs then you say they may be an ingredient, that may be leaving some listeners confused unless you verbally clarify 21:53 < kanzure> there's nothing wrong with using DHTs, but "just use a DHT" is not a solution to "scaling bitcoin" 21:54 < justanotheruser> right 22:00 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@d162-156-106-225.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:09 -!- math3 [uid54897@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dhktrwszqjoaldiw] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:12 -!- drewbot__ [~cinch@ec2-54-158-232-64.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-92-228-73.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:17 -!- sandeep_ [~sandeep@111.235.64.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18 < fenn> kanzure: i have to say it, there should be a slide addressing "just increase the blocksize" since this is about scalability 22:18 < fenn> scaling proposals 22:19 < fenn> oh nm it's on page 22 22:23 -!- Beatzebub [~beatzebub@d162-156-106-225.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Beatzebub] 22:24 < kanzure> it's just going to be a handwaving slide, like the sidechains slide and like the lightning network slides 22:24 < kanzure> i have no interest in reiterating all of this junk: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June/008603.html 22:25 < kanzure> plus, the community has already been spending a bunch of time reviewing those proposals, like bip100, bip101, bip102, .. bip105, etc. 22:25 < fenn> "For illustration of the innovative environment Merkle was in, see the picture of a nuclear powered ramjet his father was working on" 22:26 < fenn> where's my nuclear ramjet jetpack 22:27 < fenn> kanzure i was just attempting to head off the inevitable "but what about blocksize" question 22:28 < fenn> hopefully your presentation will sufficiently convey the number of dimensions in which scaling is a problem 22:32 -!- sandeep [~sandeep@111.235.64.135] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:32 < kanzure> "committing transactions to a database" is the wrong model anyway 22:32 -!- sandeep is now known as sandeep_ 22:32 < kanzure> as long as the rules are followed, the actual transactions don't really matter 22:34 < fenn> are you a deontologist~ 22:34 < kanzure> i'm a philosoraptor 22:35 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:35 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:35 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone. 22:36 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfhugzcjovikluea] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:37 < kanzure> 18:33:25 You can provide withness for executed code without executing the code yourself to verify it? 22:37 < kanzure> 18:34:21 tacotime_: Yes, thats what a snark is, a proof that code was fairthfully executed which is logarithmic in the length of the exeuction (or smaller, with cryptographic assumptions they can be constant size in the security parameter) 22:37 < kanzure> http://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse533/05au/pcp-history.pdf 22:39 < fenn> "God had intentionally created Raptor Jesus to preach to the dinosaur people and show them the light. However, his early teachings did not go over well with the dinosauric people" 22:42 < kanzure> "imagine you have a system which can prove the validity of two operations: executing a single instruction AND verifying a proof that the prior state for that instruction. If the proof verficiation is randomized/probablistic, then its not surprising that the proof size can be proportional to security rather than execution size... and then you nest these operations and get a constant size proof. (bootstrapping approach) ... Efficient ... 22:42 < kanzure> ... systems don't work directly in this way, but its an intutive way to see the possiblity." 22:42 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2602:306:35fa:d500:6433:151c:27e7:d423] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42 -!- sandeep_ [~sandeep@111.235.64.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:43 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:44 < fenn> mugshots in a math review are distracting 22:44 < kanzure> "why do all of these people have faces?" 22:45 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.135] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:45 < fenn> one of them doesn't have a face 22:46 < kanzure> might be your color scheme 22:46 < fenn> yes the faces are more creepy in inverted colors 22:48 < fenn> is this "bootstrapping approach" just memoizing previous computations in a verifiable way? 22:49 < kanzure> 18:43:17 Really the major breakthrough that allows sublinear is bootstrapping, which I think was mostly really inspired by the FHE work. 22:49 < kanzure> (fully homomorphic encryption stuff, i assume) 22:49 < fenn> but it does the same thing as memoizing, practically speaking 22:50 < kanzure> i am currently operating at pasted logs understanding 22:50 < fenn> .wik memoizing 22:50 < yoleaux> "In computing, memoization is an optimization technique used primarily to speed up computer programs by storing the results of expensive function calls and returning the cached result when the same inputs occur again." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoizing 22:51 < kanzure> it might be this: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/simple_verifyable_execution.txt 22:52 < justanotheruser> kanzure: do you understand the math in the snark paper 22:52 < fenn> oh, keeping inputs to the computation secret is a pain 22:52 < justanotheruser> pinnochio 22:52 < kanzure> haven't looked at pinnochio paper 22:52 < kanzure> i can understand most math eventually, but my big problems are things like "keeping stuff cached" and on-the-fly reconstruction of sensible things... 22:53 < kanzure> also because i haven't spent much time looking :-( 22:54 -!- drethelin [drethelin@71-87-115-157.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] --- Log closed Mon Sep 07 00:00:03 2015