--- Log opened Sat Sep 26 00:00:15 2015
--- Day changed Sat Sep 26 2015
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04:52 < kanzure> maaku: we could also convince him of hplusroadmap things by suggesting mars-compatible ecoli engineering projects and stuff.
04:53 < kanzure> i think john cumbers was working at nasa on a synthetic biology project for such
04:53 < kanzure> and there's been at least a handful of igem projects for similar things
04:55 < kanzure> also http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Pioneer%20Organisms%20Nominated%20for%20Terraforming.htm
04:57 < kanzure> kartik gada says that humanity+ has correctly held on to the funds for the reprap grand prize, v. exciting
05:11 < FourFire> finally ordered these: https://www.electronic-shop.lu/EN/products/155046
05:11 < FourFire> I'll let everyone know how the BCI project progresses
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05:56 < kanzure> .title
05:56 < yoleaux> Muscle Sensor v3 | SPARKFUN SEN-13027 | Electronic Shop S.à r.l.
06:07 < kanzure> "Biomass generation with Arthrospira platensis and Arthrospira maxima could decrease the shipped wet-food mixed-menu mass for a Mars stay and the return voyage by 38 percent."
06:07 < kanzure> "Polyhydroxybutyrate synthesis with Cupriavidus necator would allow astronauts to produce the raw material for 3-D printing, lowering the shipped mass needed to make a 120 cubic meter, six-person, 3-D printed habitat by 85 percent"
06:08 < kanzure> "An engineered species of the bacterium Synechocystis could replenish stocks of the anti-inflammatory medication acetaminophen in just a few days."
06:08 < kanzure> .title http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/12/102/20140715.full
06:08 < yoleaux> Towards synthetic biological approaches to resource utilization on space missions | Journal of The Royal Society Interface
06:08 < fenn> a dose of acetaminophen is 200mg
06:09 < fenn> .wa mass of a staple
06:09 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result!
06:09 < fenn> shameful
06:10 < fenn> 34mg
06:11 < kanzure> wasn't there a freitas index of engineered organisms for various planetary colonization reasons
06:12 < fenn> there's an entire book trilogy by kim stanley robinson
06:12 < kanzure> or maybe it was a freitas index of terraforming-related organism stuff.
06:16 < JayDugger> I'll check Fogg's Terraforming after I'm off the phone.
06:18 < kanzure> "Chroococcidiopsis is a rock-dwelling cyanobacterium highly resistant to desiccation, hypersalinity, and temperature swings found in extremely arid environments. Carnobacterium spp. has recently been shown to grow in permafrost at very low atmospheric pressures and without oxygen. Methanogenic archaea combining carbon dioxide and hydrogen could be critical in promoting rapid greenhouse warming.  Many of these organisms function best as ...
06:18 < kanzure> ... members of trophic and bioengineered consortia, so they should not be seeded in isolation."
06:20 < kanzure> yeast-based production of melanin to warm mars http://2010.igem.org/Team:Valencia/Terraforming
06:20 < fenn> no comment
06:21 < kanzure> i am not sure whether people have been looking at terraforming into a human-compatible environment, or an environment compatible with at least one (or more) organisms whatsoever
06:22 < fenn> it would have to be a mostly CO2 atmosphere for a long time until enough nitrogenous comets can be diverted
06:22 < fenn> face mask but otherwise a chilly shirtsleeve environment
06:23 < fenn> white sky
06:23 < kanzure> non-human-specific terraforming might be easier than human-specific terraforming (although for mars it sounds like lots of carbon dioxide is an achievable goal)
06:23 < fenn> plants would grow, that's a pretty good outcome i think
06:24 < kanzure> with the right engineered organism i would expect to see large chunks of atmosphere (of the planets with atmosphere) or surface to be covered in weird color microbe growth within <1 year
06:24 < kanzure> plants is slightly more advanced than i was anticipating, but sounds good to me
06:25 < fenn> well, exponentials are weird
06:25 < kanzure> yes depends on rate of growth
06:25 < fenn> you never see a pond half-covered in duckweed
06:25 < kanzure> and yet algal blooms never take over the entire ocean
06:26 < fenn> yeah i wonder what the limiting nutrient in martian soil is
06:26 < fenn> probably something silly like selenium
06:26 < kanzure> maybe algal blooms do take over the entire ocean (once in a while) and we haven't been looking long enough
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06:29 < kanzure> or, as algal blooms increase in surface area, there's a larger volume of viruses floating around that they have to defend against, and viral replication is faster than algal replication
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06:29 < kanzure> or, we do have full-ocean algal blooms we just don't care because things seem to be working as-is
06:33 < fenn> martian soil is probably nitrogen limited
06:34 < kanzure> put some cow embryos in orbit and then uh.. hm.
06:34 < fenn> ocean algal blooms are caused by nutrient upwellings from iron-rich deep water (black smoker etc) or fertilizer runoff
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06:38 < fenn> all these papers are based on meteorites and "regolith simulant" from hawaiian volcanoes
06:38 < fenn> what was the point of sending all those robots if not for exactly this kind of data?
06:40 < kanzure> should be easy to convince maaku's friend that dna synthesis is v. useful for terraforming reasons
06:42 < fenn> the mars colonization effort failed because all the research was done on yahoo groups~
06:43 < fenn> jeez just have them read "red mars" if they haven't already
06:43 < kanzure> eric hunting says it failed because nobody does anything
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06:47 < fenn> yes, a huge problem indeed
06:54 < JayDugger> Fogg gives Table 5.11, Characteristics of Some Terrestrial Organisms and an Ideal Martian Organism from NASA SP-414, 1976: On the Habitability of Mars: An Approach to Planetary Ecosynthesis.
06:55 < JayDugger> That source might be available on the NASA TRS or the like.
06:55 < JayDugger> The table only lists green algae, lichen, moss, and cyanobacteria. The source predates synthetic biology and the Viking landers.
06:56 < fenn> "On the habitability of Mars" http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770005775_1977005775.pdf
06:56 < JayDugger> Beat me to it.
06:57 < kanzure>  -O "On the habitability of Mars.pdf" --user-agent="chinese hackers"
06:58 < JayDugger> I humbly suggest we let them have it. They need all the help they can get with their terrestrial environment and its pollution.
07:02 < JayDugger> There's some interesting stuff on the server.
07:03 < JayDugger> "Can Terrestrial Microbes Grow On Mars?" http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130000557.pdf
07:03 < fenn> section 8 in that paper (page 89) is about genetic engineering of terraforming organisms
07:03 < fenn> previous paper
07:04 < JayDugger> Yeah, a little on the underwhelming side, too.
07:05 < JayDugger> Limiting nutrient in Martian soil, probably water.
07:05 < JayDugger> "The Biotoxicity of Mars Soils" http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100042558.pdf
07:07 < fenn> i'm not convinced that water is as much of a problem as nitrogen
07:07 < fenn> especially once you get to blowing up ice caps and such
07:08 < JayDugger> "The ultraviolet environment of Mars: biological implications past, present, and future" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103500963930
07:09 < JayDugger> Ha! Arthrospira platensis, my friend Spirulina.
07:10 < JayDugger> Guess my wife's not coming to Mars. She hates the smell of spirulina.
07:11 < fenn> chlorella tastes better and grows faster
07:12 < kanzure> moon first?
07:13 < fenn> what about it
07:13 < fenn> terraforming the moon would be worse than useless
07:14 < kanzure> not terraforming
07:14 < kanzure> just microbes
07:14 < fenn> not gonna happen
07:14 < fenn> no atmosphere, severely nutrient limited, ridiculous extremes of temperature and ultraviolet radiation
07:15 < kanzure> at the poles?
07:15 < fenn> no light
07:15 < kanzure> everyone's a critic
07:16 < kanzure> okay i am gonna go hang out with some birds http://vinsweb.org/ bbl
07:16 < fenn> the moon is good for making things to launch into space
07:16 < fenn> fiberglass, aluminum alloys, semiconductors, etc
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07:21 < JayDugger> She hates chlorella too.
07:21 < JayDugger> Why spoil so much good hard vacuum with microbes?
07:22 < fenn> apparently if you grow it in different nutrient-limited broths it tastes like different things, a nitrogen rich broth yields a meaty algae, a nitrogen poor yields a starchy algae,e tc
07:23 < fenn> it amuses me that people think a lunar colony can be sustained solely on exporting liquid oxygen for rocket fuel
07:24 < JayDugger> I didn't know that. I don't eat it for the taste, but that would help.
07:24 < JayDugger> Do you know if you can buy different strains with different flavors?
07:24 < fenn> i don't know
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08:18 < maaku> kanzure: so I was listening to a video panel discussion with Ralph Merkle and was really disappointed to hear him go on a tirade about how privacy was meaningless in the digital age, with his optimal outcome being everyone knowing everyone's business
08:24 < maaku> fenn: one of the fun things about our modern understanding of Mars is the amount of ice just under the surface
08:24 < maaku> warm the planet above 0c and you'll get an ocean covering the northing hemisphere
08:25 < maaku> and continuing the terraforming process in the ocean would be much easier
08:25 < maaku> fenn: what do you think doesn't work about lunar fuel depot economies?
08:25 < fenn> nobody will be using oxygen for imparting delta-v
08:26 < fenn> it will all be ion drive or momentum exchange tethers
08:29 < maaku> fenn: either we're talking past each other on timeframes, or you are incredibly optimistic about technology development
08:30 < fenn> timeframe of a manned lunar colony
08:30 < maaku> <10 years if someone actually wanted to do it
08:31 < maaku> forever if no one cares
08:31 < fenn> what would you do with that much oxygen in lunar orbit in 10 years?
08:32 < maaku> not just LOX but LH2 as well. have you seen Jeff Greason's fuel depot talk?
08:32 < maaku> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy2kIPLsUn0
08:33 < maaku> the main point is that with <4km/s dv, it is possible to build reliable, reusable, cheap vehicles
08:33 < fenn> most proposals involving h2 are recent as water wasn't known to exist (and until clementine wasn't proven to exist)
08:33 < maaku> using chemical propulsion
08:34 < fenn> mumble mumble solar wind
08:34 < maaku> so if you map the solar system by delta-v, you have fuel depots every 3-4 km/s
08:35 < maaku> Earth-Moon L-point, Earth-Sun L-point, Martian Moon, orbit of venus, etc.
08:36 < fenn> maybe i'm missing something.. why is is cheaper to ship fuel to a fuel depot than to ship fuel inside a spacecraft?
08:36 < maaku> and you can use the same cheap reusable, 100's of cycles before maintenance vehicle to putter around the solar systme
08:37 < maaku> fenn: well you ship fuel in a spacecraft to the fuel depot to get the fuel there of course
08:37 < maaku> but it's cheaper because of the rocket equation, basically. if you need to go 8 km/s dv , it is WAY harder than going 4 km/s dv twice
08:38 < fenn> but there's nothing at the earth-moon L point
08:38 < fenn> so you have to do it twice anyway
08:38 < maaku> fenn: and in the future there will be nothing except a fuel depot
08:38 < maaku> it's an economics and mechanical engineering argument, not a destination argument
08:39 < maaku> we make fragile, single-use vehicles to make long-hual trips
08:39 < maaku> Jeff/XCOR's argument is that we should make short-haul trips with reliable vehicles instead, to gain low-maintenance reusable vehilce efficiencies
08:46 < fenn> heh "senate launch system"
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08:59 < fenn> so greason is saying (my paraphrase) we should go to luna first and build a settlement/fuel production to fuel mars-bound ships, because we don't know enough about the biological effects of cosmic radiation
08:59 < fenn> i think that's pretty wimpy
09:00 < fenn> luna and mars have almost the same delta-v from earth, just fucking go to mars and skip all the prep work
09:00 < fenn> if someone gets cancer on the trip to mars, they probably also would have gotten cancer on the surface
09:06 < maaku> fenn: eh I won't speak to the radiation arguments. I never understood why NASA was so scared of radiation
09:07 < maaku> but no, the argument is fuel depot in LEO, fuel depot in Earth-Luna L-point
09:08 < maaku> only large hurdle is getting Earth -> LEO, but SpaceX has that basically solved
09:09 < maaku> but for the rest, same vehicle goes from LEO -> Earth-Luna station -> Lunar surface, each step refueling
09:09 < maaku> and the same cheap, reliable tanker can make trips from lunar pole to Earth-Moon station, and for every 2-3 trips make a trip to LEO to refuel that station
09:11 < maaku> the reasoning for this is when you look at charts for cost-per-kg-delivered, it grows crazy fast .. either a n^3 or n^4 term, I forget
09:11 < fenn> LEO->L5->mars capture is 3.9+2.2+0.7=6.8km/s vs LEO->mars capture at 3.6+0.7=4.3km/s
09:12 < fenn> it's a huge detour if your goal is going to mars
09:12 < maaku> but how do you get to the surface?
09:13 < fenn> what does that have to do with anything?
09:13 < maaku> fenn: are you bringing fuel to propulsively break to the surface?
09:13 < maaku> are you bringing fuel for the return trip?
09:13 < fenn> at the end of the day you're hurtling toward a planet carrying payload and have to stop somehow
09:15 < fenn> if you're making fuel for mars->earth then it would make more sense to do that on deimos/phobos or mars
09:15 < fenn> rather than shipping it from the moon and then back
09:18 < fenn> i am using this ultra scientific diagram btw: http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/deltaveemap.html
09:33 < maaku> fenn: I believe that is the plan of people who are considering this
09:34 < maaku> phobos rather, I don't think deimos is expected to have water
09:34 < maaku> that map is accurate btw, I know the guy who made it
09:34 < maaku> came from the same community as this chemistry guy I'm trying to get to come over here
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09:57 < kanzure> you could increase the temperature of mars by using giant reflector mirrors
09:57 < fenn> and smite your enemies
09:58 < fenn> and dig trenches
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10:01 < kanzure> well yeah
10:01 < kanzure> i suppose changing the orbit might be a more permanent method
10:02 < kanzure> but not sure how large of a change would be required
10:02 < fenn> no point
10:04 < fenn> i guess for durability's sake, to prevent a climate collapse in the event of some kind of war where the mirrors are destroyed
10:04 < fenn> but moving a planet is no trivial operation
10:05 < fenn> it would probably take millions of years
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10:06 < fenn> http://cltampa.com/tampa/could-we-move-mars-or-venus-into-earths-orbit-and-live-there/Content?oid=2034813
10:11 < fenn> original http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2869/could-we-move-mars-or-venus-into-earths-orbit-and-live-there
10:12 < fenn> summary of non-squishy technology for terraforming mars: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/zubrin.htm
10:16 < fenn> you could also do the orbiting rainbow lens thing to focus sunlight onto mars
10:17 < kanzure> someone pointed out that we could just dig lots of irrigation ditches everywhere
10:17 < kanzure> (or attempt to do silly rain alternatives)
10:17 < fenn> how does that get oxygen into the air?
10:17 < fenn> or change the temperature
10:18 < fenn> etc
10:18 < kanzure> do we have to put oxygen in the air? why not pneumatic tubes. i dunno.
10:18 < fenn> because otherwise you might as well live on an asteroid colony
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10:20 < kanzure> still need to water those plants though
10:20 < fenn> some kind of cylinder pair that eats asteroids
10:21 < fenn> oh that's just engineering :P
10:21 < fenn> but seriously there are better ways of moving water around than big ditches
10:22 < fenn> evacuated tube transport for example
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10:29 < kanzure> some of this should go on the wiki
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10:33 < kanzure> merkle privacy weirdness is probably because he doesn't expect everyone to be capable of understanding good opsec for privacy mission integrity, i am sure he thinks that it is possible to know a secret
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11:20 < maaku>  kanzure: the justifiable interest in terraforming Mars is in creating a biosphere2
11:20 < maaku> so the quesiton is : does that have value
11:20 < maaku> otherwise there's nothing interesting about Mars vs the asteroid belt
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12:48 < kanzure> luke iseman ycombinator hardware stuff podcast http://www.theamphour.com/268-an-interview-with-luke-iseman-of-ycombinator/
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12:53 < nmz787> kanzure: wow you posted that to reddit a month ago and not much of a response... sentient chemists are rare I guess?
12:53 < c0rw1n> lol
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13:10 < kanzure> nmz787: there were some private messages from a biochemist who had a phone call with me, but he was anti-engineering (although pro sens foundation)
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13:35 < nmz787> anti-engineering scientist? you should have lied and just said it was science.
13:35 < nmz787> like, anti GMO?
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13:36 < nmz787> how is engineering not just product/deliverable-focused science?
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14:34 < kanzure> nmz787: no more like "those are just implementation details and boring, someone figured it out once so i don't want to bother"
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14:56 < kanzure> juul: tell me cool things from igem
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16:27 < nmz787> I guess there is nothing cool from igem this year...
16:29 < kanzure> i haven't finished reading through all the projects, only got through the first 10-20
16:29 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2015
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17:07 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=
17:07 < kanzure> er.. what?
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22:58 < JayDugger> Good morning.
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--- Log closed Sun Sep 27 00:00:39 2015