--- Log opened Thu Oct 15 00:00:57 2015
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01:42 < archels> "[...] self-driving cars should not be fully self-driving [...]"
01:42 < archels> Mindell says. “I’m not arguing this from first principles. There are 40 years’ worth of examples.”
01:42 < archels> where's the logic in that?
01:42 < archels> "we couldn't do it in the past 40 years or ever before, thus we will never be able to do it"
02:13 < dreth> ?
02:13 < dreth> should not or can not?
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02:21 < archels> as far as I understand it, his argument is "we could not in the past 40 years, hence we should not"
02:21 < archels> it's a total non sequitur
02:21 < dreth> http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/mv9/open_thread_oct_12_oct_18_2015/ctjb
02:22 < dreth> I mean the argument might be "this is really hard so don't try to do it if hte consequences of fucking it up are really high"
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04:49 < kanzure> self-driving horses are the worst
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05:09 < kanzure> campy space song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=284AIMKPvc4
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06:24 < poppingtonic> DIY gene therapy: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/542371/a-tale-of-do-it-yourself-gene-therapy/?utm_campaign=newsletters&utm_source=newsletter-daily-all&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20151014
06:30 < kanzure> "According to documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission on April 27, she’d raised $250,000 for BioViva"
06:30 < kanzure> dunno if this counts as diy
06:31 < kanzure> using a CRO definitely doesn't count as diy
06:32 < kanzure> "One current collaborator on the BioViva project is Jason Williams, a radiologist who has attracted scrutiny for offering unlicensed stem-cell treatments to patients suffering from amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or ALS. Williams says he ceased providing those treatments in the United States in 2013, after the FDA asked him to stop, saying they required agency approval. Williams later established a clinic in Bogotá, Colombia."
06:33 < kanzure> "In an interview, Williams said he was a co-owner of BioViva and had assigned rights in a patent to the company. He said the treatment had occurred in Colombia, although not at his clinic."
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06:42 < kanzure> dreth: good point, maybe the other seals also had all the same genetic problems, and we just have selective memory. but i suspect we have seen that in other populations too (dogs).
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06:52 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/news/where-in-the-world-could-the-first-crispr-baby-be-born-1.18542
06:53 < poppingtonic> to point at a William Gibson novel, the DIY gene therapy story is very close to what happened in Virtual Light
06:54 < kanzure> what, blatant lies and journalism stinking up the place again?
06:55 < kanzure> i'm supposed to be okay with the lie about "DIY" because otherwse it's supposed to make me sound like i'm calling the other stuff a lie, but i'm not falling for this trap. i hate people.
06:56 < poppingtonic> the journalism on this is pretty bad, actually.
06:57 < archels> Kevin Warwick coming to my university November
06:57 < poppingtonic> I see what you mean about the DIY lie. Now anything with DIY bio in the name will look like what this article depicts.
06:57 < kanzure> nah, that has been happening to diybio for a while now
06:58 < kanzure> cathal garvey even took to calling his venture capital program an example of diybio. except it's just companies, startups, and VC money. so..... yeah..
06:59 < kanzure> maybe diybio should switch to using a name like "biologists going their own way" so that everyone will stay away from hijacking the name
07:01 < kanzure> (in the context of "BGTOW" i would say having a CRO make your drug for you, and then having some random doctor inject you (wtf?), would qualify; it's just certainly not do-it-yourself)
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07:44 < archels> kanzure: surely at some point you can no longer expect a person to perform every step in the process themselves
07:44 < archels> if the tools and methods are public domain, and there are n (for n >> 1) CROs available to pick from, where's the problem
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07:51 < kanzure> archels: there's no problem at all; it's just not diy.
07:51 < kanzure> archels: getting the materials from a CRO sounds like a good idea to me.
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07:55 < archels> yes but I also didn't DIY build my soldering iron or my oscilloscope
07:55 < archels> but they're so commodity it doesn't matter
07:55 < archels> same for DIYbio?
07:56 < kanzure> er, i don't know, what am i supposed to be judging?
07:56 < archels> well, I think this is more than a discussion about semantics
07:56 < archels> the semantics of the term DIYbio
07:57 < archels> it's about not being able to do every single step of a constructive/creative process absolutely single-handedly
07:57 < kanzure> the utility of the term is zero if it means "business as usual"
07:58 < kanzure> to their credit, they did not claim it was diy-related, rather that was the journalist's fault
07:59 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10391313
07:59 < yoleaux> Theranos Has Struggled with Blood Tests | Hacker News
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08:11 < kanzure> http://medienportal.univie.ac.at/presse/aktuelle-pressemeldungen/detailansicht/artikel/larger-brains-do-not-lead-to-high-iqs/
08:11 < kanzure> http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-10-larger-brains-high-iqs.html
08:11 < kanzure> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976341500250X
08:11 < kanzure> but on the other hand i don't think anyone was claiming brain size contributed much to iq differences anyway
08:13 < kanzure> 08:12 <@gwern> 'robust but weak' eh. r=.24, even. so exactly what intelligence researchers have been claiming for the past 30 or 40 years?
08:20 < kuudes> at least over here in finland, head circumference of newborns has been steadily increasing, and they had again recently to enlarge the head circumference norms
08:20 < kuudes> for some reason they made a note that "larger heads do not mean more intelligence" even though the article portrayed both head size and intelligence in a positive light, I wonder why it still seems worth mentioning to someone?
08:21 < kuudes> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21495784
08:21 < kanzure> .title
08:21 < yoleaux> New Finnish reference for head circumference from birth to 7 years. - PubMed - NCBI
08:22 < kuudes> ups, sorry, wrong window
08:22 < kuudes> oh well, it was relevant here as well :)
08:22 < kanzure> you have a funny definition of wrong channel
08:22 < kuudes> :D
08:23 < kuudes> I just haven't talked much on this channel and am still unsure of what I should and should not say here :)
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08:41 < kanzure> fenn: phone call later today with kosuri, let me know if there's anything you would like me to ask and/or extract
08:41 < kanzure> nmz787: same question for you
08:47 < poppingtonic> .wik gene therapy
08:47 < yoleaux> "Gene therapy is the therapeutic delivery of nucleic acid polymers into a patient's cells as a drug to treat disease. Gene therapy could be a way to fix a genetic problem at its source. The polymers are either expressed as proteins, interfere with protein expression, or possibly correct genetic mutations." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy
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09:02 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
09:02 < eudoxia> good morning
09:03 < streety> thanks for the link poppingtonic, will be interesting to see what happens next.
09:03 < streety> Is the William Gibson book worth reading?
09:03 < eudoxia> probably not
09:05 < JayDugger> Virtual Light? No.
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09:43 < FourFire> kanzure, what article are we mad at?
09:43 < FourFire> (link please?)
09:44 < streety> I think it was http://www.technologyreview.com/news/542371/a-tale-of-do-it-yourself-gene-therapy/?utm_campaign=newsletters&utm_source=newsletter-daily-all&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20151014
09:44 < FourFire> thanks, gtg
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09:45 < streety> thanks for the reviews on the book. I was familiar with the authors name, but not the book.
09:46 < streety> I'm fairly sure I've read Neuromancer, but the plot now escapes me. Probably not a god sign.
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10:36 < kanzure> nmz787: kosuri call is happening later today, did you read the paper and what questions/stuff do you want me to bring up?
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12:00 < ryankarason> i be reading some gibson this morning!!
12:00 < ryankarason> on the 3rd book of the sprawl series, mona lisa overdrive
12:00 < ryankarason> i am enjoying :)
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13:06 < kanzure> ralph mcquarrie art stuff http://imgur.com/a/RlnuM http://imgur.com/a/O1N1I http://imgur.com/a/e2ExM http://imgur.com/a/CX3dU
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13:16 < kanzure> hmm kosuri coauthored a study with marblestone http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/9780470559277.ch110190
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13:17 < kanzure> http://genomics.xprize.org/news/blog/cancellation-of-archon-genomics-xprize-public-debate
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13:39 < berndj> what's the argument for believing that the scaling of effort required to create superhuman intelligences is something convenient, something that allows one to expect a singularity?
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13:51 < nmz787_i> .title http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=7393
13:51 < yoleaux> Bit Angle Modulation (BAM) in a PIC
13:51 < nmz787_i> pretty interesting
13:52 < nmz787_i> here's an attached PDF in that forum http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3123
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14:06 < mgin> ralph mcquarrie art stuff: awesome
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14:06 < mgin> incredible
14:10 < kanzure> okay done with the call. have transcript, but summary is supportive but otherwise done dealing with synthesis.
14:11 < kanzure> berndj: dunno if you can promise a singularity like that, but a basic argument is the difference in cognitive ability between even just certain humans and humans that appear alien in their cognitive ability.
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14:12 < berndj> kanzure, i'm not trying to promise anything; in fact i'm a singularity skeptic - i'm not convinced at all that we're staring into a post-star trek future
14:13 < archels> berndj: "everything everywhere is always exponential" or something like that
14:14 < berndj> archels: including the difficulty of achieving each increment in intelligence
14:14 < archels> nah that part is elided
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14:15 < kanzure> berndj: you can have high cognitive ability and still not get a singularity anyway.
14:16 < berndj> kanzure, the whole "singularity is upon us!" thing reminds me of zeno's paradox, where it only seems like a singularity because of a poor choice of coordinate system
14:18 < berndj> i'd *like* to be worried about something as geeky as an AI armageddon, but... i'm not
14:20 < kanzure> well, you're not wrong
14:20 < kanzure> not sure what you want us to do about this though :-)
14:20 < berndj> convince me that i should be worried?
14:20 < kanzure> wrong channel for that
14:21 < kanzure> you're thinking of #lesswrong
14:21 < berndj> oh :-/
14:21 < kanzure> we aren't the existential worry warriors in here
14:22 < kanzure> (XRWs just doesn't have the same ring as the other *W, but whatever)
14:22 < berndj> maybe i misunderstood this channel's purpose/interests/otherthings
14:22 < kanzure> berndj: there's a good overview here, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap
14:23 < berndj> i read too much into "transhumanism", i think
14:24 < kanzure> fenn: the conversation was a little strange.... like, he listed out things to worry about when engineering such a machine, such as humidity, but he treated this like an insurmountable set of problems (probably just exhaustion about having to find all of the problems? or that he doesn't think anyone is careful enough to check all the parameters and conditions..?)
14:24 < kanzure> berndj: well, i mean, yes many transhumanists are interested in worrying about singularities. but i find the utility of this worrying to be very low.
14:24 < kanzure> worrying about a singularity isn't going to build me a dyson sphere, or reveal the location of the stolen data plans
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14:32 < fenn> ohnoes engineering
14:33 < fenn> did he say anything else
14:33 < fenn> link to transcript?
14:36 < nmz787_i> kanzure: call/transcript about synthesis???
14:37 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/protein-engineering/Design%20of%20a%20single-chain%20polypeptide%20tetrahedron%20assembled%20from%20coiled-coil%20segments.pdf
14:40 < kanzure> fenn: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/2015-10-15-sri-kosuri.txt
14:40 < nmz787_i> kanzure: just reading the logs now... nah I didn't really have any questions, except something like "well what do you have to tell us that is /interesting/ rather than a review of all the stuff we already know?"
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14:41 < kanzure> too late
14:42 < kanzure> fenn: yeah i think there's a large anti-engineering bias in general in this field. i don't know where it originates from.
14:42 < kanzure> i mean, they aren't explicitly anti-engineering... they parrot the benefits of machines and tools and specifications... but then it never materializes.
14:42 < nmz787_i> well seems like he answered that anyway  with "We're out of the oligo synthesis thing."
14:42 < kanzure> or if it does materialize, it's only at much larger companies.
14:42 < nmz787_i> aka 'we gave up' or 'that is too boring for us'
14:43 < kanzure> well, i think it's because in 2014 he moved out of george church's lab
14:46 < nmz787_i> I wonder who is doing the reviews for actual synthesis experiments/research...
14:47 < nmz787_i> if no one is... well I guess that means better chance for one of us to get there first
14:48 < nmz787_i> there's a guy on youtube that picks items from this to work-through on-camera: http://www.introni.it/pdf/Williams%2006%20-%201995%20-%20EDN%20-%20A%20designer's%20guide%20to%20Innovative%20Linear%20Circuits.pdf
14:49 < nmz787_i> apparently this Jim Williams is something of an Analog Superstar
14:49 < nmz787_i> .wik Jim Williams (analog designer)
14:49 < yoleaux> "James M. "Jim" Williams (April 14, 1948 – June 12, 2011) was an analog circuit designer and technical author who worked for the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1968–1979), Philbrick, National Semiconductor (1979–1982) and Linear Technology Corporation (LTC) (1982–2011). He suffered a stroke on June 10 and died on June 12, 2011." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Williams_(analog_designer)
14:49 < nmz787_i> "He wrote over 350 publications[3] relating to analog circuit design, including 5 books, 21 application notes for National Semiconductor, 62 application notes for Linear Technology, and over 125 articles for EDN Magazine."
14:50 < nmz787_i> heh "1ppm settling time measurement for a monolithic 18-bit DAC: When does the last angel stop dancing on a speeding pinhead?"
14:51 < nmz787_i> "Acoustic thermometry is an arcane, elegant temperature measurement technique. It utilizes sound’s temperature dependent transit time in a medium to measure temperature. The medium may be a solid, liquid or gas. Acoustic thermometers function in environments that conventional sensors cannot tolerate. Examples include extreme temperatures, applications where the sensor would be subjected to destructive physical abuse and nuclear reactors. Gas
14:51 < nmz787_i> path acoustic thermometers respond very quickly to temperature changes because they have essentially no thermal mass or lag."
14:51 < nmz787_i> http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/application-note/an131f.pdf
14:52 < nmz787_i> heheheh, turn the old "everything's OK" alarm into a thermometer...
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16:00 < nmz787_i> linkedin strangely thinks it created a page for 'my company'... and said page has a link to http://nucleicresources.com/about_us.html
16:17 < fenn> roman jerala's rationally engineered protein looked like something i was hoping had existed (april 2013) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/protein-engineering/Design%20of%20a%20single-chain%20polypeptide%20tetrahedron%20assembled%20from%20coiled-coil%20segments.pdf
16:18 < fenn> gratz on getting a job in wisconsin~
16:19 < fenn> "Founder at Nucleic Devices" probably caused the confusion
16:20 < fenn> you should hire nate mccorkle as a sales rep
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16:30 < fenn_>  /nick fenn
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16:41 < pasky> http://lifemag.org/article/10-things-we-learned-from-liz-parrish-s-reddit-ama maybe old news for you?
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17:47 < poppingtonic> CrowdSupply campaign for the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard: https://www.crowdsupply.com/ugl/ultimate-hacking-keyboard?utm_source=launch&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=uhk
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18:04 < streety> do they really need $200k to bring that to market?
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18:47 < poppingtonic> how much do you think it would cost to make only one of those? If you were machining all the parts yourself, testing and doing QA?
18:48 < kanzure> well how many are they making?
18:49 < streety> it's priced at $200 for each keyboard so they're looking to make a thousand
18:50 < poppingtonic> No, that would mean they break even.
18:50 < kanzure> no way they are doing it at-cost
18:51 < streety> I'm not suggesting that is how much it costs to make, only that the price they are charging is $200
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18:51 < poppingtonic> The number has to be so that they make a profit. Which means that it would be cheaper than $200 to make.
18:51 < streety> yes
18:52 < poppingtonic> Wait, not "has to". It just seems like that to my mental model which includes economies-of-scale calculations in hardware projects.
18:53 < streety> are you talking about the unit cost for them or the cost of DIYing a equivalent device?
18:56 < poppingtonic> Both. To my mind, DIYing an equivalent device would be more expensive than mass-producing, whatever "mass" means in this context. Unit cost is cheaper and subject to deals with manufacturers etc.
18:59 < poppingtonic> Unless all the per-unit expensive-to-manufacture components are designed and sold en-masse, separately, in such a modular fashion, and so cheaply that it's just a matter of designing a form factor that looks exactly like that one device. That seems unlikely.
19:00 < fenn> it's not much different from a kinesis freestyle
19:00 < kanzure> why aren't we past split keyboards yet
19:01 < fenn> because everything is terrible
19:01 < poppingtonic> what, no BCI?
19:02 < kanzure> bci is also terrible
19:02 < streety> yes, the fixed costs would make a single unit expensive, even 10, 50, or 100 maybe. But given that all the design work has already been done, 500 units seems like just as good a run size as 1000
19:03 < kanzure> marblestone thesis was about possibly better neural interfaces http://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/12274513/Marblestone_gsas.harvard_0084L_11381.pdf?sequence=1
19:05 < poppingtonic> If I were to simulate what would look like a good growth model for these guys, then if they're looking to get 1000 keyboards out, that means that they're looking for the canonical "1000 fans" who help them get enough word-of-mouth for preorders, more sales and so on.
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19:09 < poppingtonic> But 1000 is the anchor we've set in this conversation right here, so "M-x grain-of-salt".
19:10 < poppingtonic> I actually enjoy reading science phd theses.
19:17 < kanzure> " To address this challenge, we mobilized the intellectual e୭forts of more than 17 collaborators across many disciplines and institutions, asking what it would take to record from all neurons in a mouse brain at millisecond resolution, based on an analysis from ୮ୢrst principles ofphysics and from the known biophysics of the brai[434]. This analysis has been featured in a number of subsequent white-papers [144, 585, 136] and was ...
19:17 < kanzure> ... highlighted in Nature Physics[86]."
19:18 < kanzure> "We structured the analysis around three problems: (1) All neurons must be probed at a sufficient rate, (2) the energy transmitted into the brain must not cause thermal damage and (3) the volume of instrumentation introduced into the brain must not cause physical damage. We found that all existing approaches require orders of magnitude improvement in key parameters in order to scale to whole brain observations. Electrical recording is ...
19:18 < kanzure> ... limited by the low multiplexing capacity of electrodes and their lack of intrinsic spatial resolution, optical methods are constrained by the scattering of visible light in brain tissue, magnetic resonance is hindered by the di୭fusion and relaxation timescales of water protons, and the implementation of molecular recording is complicated by the stochastic kinetics of enzymes."
19:18 < kanzure> "We also studied the physics of powering and communicating with microscale devices embedded in brain tissue and found that, while radio-frequency electromagnetic data transmission suffers from a severe power–bandwidth tradeo୭f, communication via infrared light or ultrasound may allow high data rates due to the possibility of spatial multiplexing. The use of embedded local recording and wireless data transmission would only be viable, ...
19:18 < kanzure> ... however, given major improvements to the power efficiency of microelectronic devices."
19:20 < kanzure> "The purpose of exploring the physical limits of brain activity mapping is to identify asumptions whose strategic, purposeful violation could create opportunitiॶ for novel solutions. With Brad Zamft, Michel Maharbiz and Konrad Kording, we have organized a series of meetings among researchers from several fields, in order to architect solutions to the problem of scalable neural recording. This has led to several theoretical proposals ...
19:21 < kanzure> ... which are now being actively vetted at a preliminary design stage. One of these, sensor multiplexing via fiber-optic re୯୳ectometry, is brie୯୳y described in a supplemental note to Chapter 3."
19:22 < kanzure> "molecular ticker tape" is dna polymerase misincorporation influenced by neuron cation concentration
19:22 < kanzure> "In work led by Josh Glaser 227, we also published the first theoretical paper on the molecular recording device concept. This paper establishes limits on the temporal resolution of recording that arise from molecular stochasticity, and derives the need for molecular clocking mechanisms to achieve singlespike resolution. A brief summary of this theoretical analysis is included in Chapter 3."
19:27 < kanzure> i like his approach ("identify asumptions whose strategic, purposeful violation could create opportunitiॶ for novel solutions")
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19:33 < poppingtonic> kanzure you read the whole thing?
19:39 < poppingtonic> "supplemental note", "brief summary"
19:40 < poppingtonic> it's like a Fractal of Interesting.
19:47 < JayDugger> Good evening.
20:07 < poppingtonic>  Hello JayDugger
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--- Log closed Fri Oct 16 00:00:58 2015