--- Log opened Sun Oct 18 00:00:00 2015
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01:56 < kanzure> the problem with that plan is that the markov generated version of the logs will end up being the only saved copy ever, by osme random accident
02:03 < kanzure> law of data is that data reverts to most hilarious instantiation of said data
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02:04 < kanzure> webgl mechanical clock https://nikital.github.io/clock/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10406165
02:04 < kanzure> https://github.com/nikital/clock/blob/master/src/mechanics.ts
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02:32 < kanzure> microcosmos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ftVI3NfxU (recalibration)
02:35 < kanzure> anima mundi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yoynLCwrjE (more recalibration)
02:45 < justanotheruser> fenn: what?
02:46 < kanzure> how goes cnc stuff?
02:47 < justanotheruser> if you're talking about my hostmask being visible, you now have my hotels IP :D
02:47 < kanzure> "yes hi, i am looking for justan otterooser. do you have him?"
02:47 < justanotheruser> wat
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02:48 < kanzure> hotel's gonna be non-cooperative
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02:48 < kanzure> whatevs
02:48 < kanzure> cnc stuff? you went?
02:48 < justanotheruser> I've been watching some of this guys video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMhYuXx35Ik
02:48 < kanzure> .title
02:48 < yoleaux> SHOP TIPS #192 Intro. to Gears & Gear Cutting on Bridgeport Mill tubalcain - YouTube
02:48 < justanotheruser> I went?
02:48 < kanzure> it is question
02:49 < kanzure> you were going to trek to the campus machine shop at some point
02:50 < kanzure> 4am is probably not a good time for me attempting communication. i'm probably still dreamng anyway.
02:50 < justanotheruser> ah, no. I haven't yet. I'm not sure they would be willing to show me anything unless I was taking a class, which I am unable to. So I'm probably going to take a class after this semester is over
02:50 < kanzure> pizza > class registration
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02:58 < justanotheruser> Strange, it seems your logs don't include my hostmask-free join. I have no idea what fenns comment meant
02:58 < fenn> i wasn't being sarcastic or anything, genuinely curious how the anonymity is working out in general
02:59 < fenn> i see it as a lifestyle like living on a boat
03:00 < justanotheruser> oh
03:00 < fenn> some people do it for fun or political reasons, some people are being hounded out of their home country and fleeing on a raft
03:01 < fenn> i've been watching a lot of those "tubalcain" videos and i'm not too impressed overall
03:02 < justanotheruser> yeah, justanotheruser is just something I came up with because I didn't care about coming up with some super awesome name
03:02 < fenn> he's definitely not an expert in anything and makes a lot of mistakes in the theory of why things are done
03:02 < justanotheruser> oh really?
03:02 < fenn> every video i want to make a whole bunch of corrections, it's frustrating
03:03 < fenn> anyway it covers a lot of practical knowledge and you can identify common objects found in the shop and what they are for
03:04 < fenn> he teaches many techniques that are utterly worthless if you have CNC
03:04 < justanotheruser> that's interesting because he seems to cite books on the subject often. Are the books wrong?
03:04 < fenn> no the books are usually correct
03:06 < fenn> i have the exact same machinery's handbook edition
03:06 < fenn> "it's a smeller"
03:08 < fenn> he says a lot of things like "this is engineering information and we don't have to think about that at the milling machine"
03:18 < fenn> he never mentions that you only need one hob to cut every gear in a series, instead of a zillion form cutters
03:18 < fenn> and the hob will make better more accurate gears
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06:00 < kanzure> hmph
06:01 < kanzure> yes we should identify some hplusroadmap-sanctioned machining videos
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06:38 < JayDugger> Try https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0EB93E6E02E5CF17
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07:13 < kanzure> .title
07:13 < yoleaux> industrial - YouTube
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07:37 < kanzure> argh eliezer is the fucking worst; when people ask about transhumanism, people recommend reading HPMOR now instead of stuff like, i dunno, learning lab protocols- https://www.reddit.com/r/Transhuman/comments/3p1gk1/self_study_need_help_developing_curriculum/
07:47 < mgin> what?
07:48 < mgin> those are two totally different categories
07:48 < kanzure> hm?
07:49 < mgin> fiction is extremely important
07:50 < kanzure> fiction doesn't instruct you how to do things
07:50 < kanzure> his question was how to do things
07:50 < mgin> so what? he's new and doesn't know where to start
07:51 < mgin> recommending him to read fiction for inspiration is a great idea
07:51 < kanzure> HPMOR does not instruct you with where to start learning practical skills
07:52 < mgin> did you read what I just said?
07:53 < kanzure> also, i don't think HPMOR is particularly inspiring
07:53 < mgin> fine but the principle is sound
07:57 < kanzure> pretty stupid that i can't make negative comments about lesswrong without pushback
07:59 < kanzure> "Concise total synthesis of glucosepane" http://www.sciencemag.org/content/350/6258/294
07:59 < kanzure> https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2015/10/building-the-tools-to-work-with-glucosepane-cross-links.php
08:00 < kanzure> "An existing drug administered intravenously reduces the chances of dying from major stroke by 60%, according to results of a phase II trial announced October 9 at the annual Neurocritical Care Society meeting in Scottsdale, Arizona." (cirara) http://scitechdaily.com/new-drug-significantly-reduces-mortality-rate-after-stroke/
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08:01 < streety> Isn't the benefit of these Q&A sites that it's relatively rare that any one person is able to provide a complete and perfect answer. Collectively though, we get closer. Pushing the idea that biology can be studied without a highly equipped lab is important. A little bit of fiction on the side is no bad thing though
08:08 < kanzure> fiction is fine, but not lesswrong
08:08 < kanzure> let's look at the results of lesswrong... go look at #lesswrong
08:12 < kanzure> the attempts at politically railroading henry markram have been quite strange http://nautil.us/blog/the-big-problem-with-big-science-ventureslike-the-human-brain-project
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08:12 < kanzure> i guess there's $1B at stake so other researchers probably feel the need to team up to yell at grant bodies to get some money of their own
08:12 < kanzure> even if they are just babbling nonsense
08:17 < streety> the glyburide article is interesting. Have to wonder what other conditions it could be useful in
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08:18 < streety> some evidence that it protects the heart as well in various models
08:23 < streety> "After the administration of the K(ATP) channel blocker glibenclamide,  median norepinephrine requirements decreased from 13 to 4 microg/min  compared with a change from 19 to 7 microg/min after placebo." That is quite a placebo effect. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16484892
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09:25 < FourFire> "<kanzure> HPMOR does not instruct you with where to start learning practical skills" nope, but it helps spread the idea that there are things worth striving for, and that you'd be more awesome for doing so
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09:45 < maaku> FourFire: be very very careful though. HPMoR is full of wrong examples of how to proceed
09:49 < maaku> In fact HPMoR is probably an anti-example to learn from
09:49 < maaku> Try to be like HPMOR!Harry and you'll end up on #lesswrong
09:49 < mgin> it's practical utility is irrelevant
09:49 < mgin> its*
09:49 < mgin> that's not the point of fiction
09:50 < FourFire> maaku, sure, but it's akin to mythbusters
09:51 < FourFire> not a great example of actually doing things right, but a good propagator of the meme that things can be done right, by anyone
09:51 < FourFire> and that doing things right, in of itself can be enjoyable or cool, or whatever
09:51 < maaku> FourFire: ugh, no. it is precisely not akin to mythbusters
09:52 < FourFire> but yes I'd prefer to see more intro lab procedure, or paywall jailbreaking or something else useful guides
09:52 < maaku> if Mythbusters was like HPMoR, Adam and Jamie would sit around a table and discuss myths until they'd convinced themselves with their own smartness which one was true or not
09:55 < maaku> this is decartian 'rationalism' and there's a 250 year history of this Not. Working. At. All.
09:56 < maaku> actually longer than that, it's the aristotelian tradition
09:56 < maaku> and in the middle ages you ended up with church doctrine, in the 21st century you get #lesswrong
09:56 < mgin> you're an idiot.
09:56 < FourFire> yeah, now that I think of it, HPMoR is a whole lot of applause lights towards nerd culture/scientifically literate people without actually contributing to it at all
09:56 < FourFire> or only minorly
09:57  * mgin has read HPMOR like >5 times and loves it
09:58 < FourFire> !HPEV gets to reap the fruits of doing things correctly, with overpowered buffs due to magic + science success aura, and doesn't actually do much actual research or so on, besides knowing a bunch of stuff he's read from before the story's beginning
10:00 < FourFire> That doesn't detract from me having enjoyed reading it of course, just removes it from the list of transhumanist fiction I call "the canon"
10:00 < maaku> Oh sure it's decently good fiction. I like portions of it better than the original HP.
10:01 < mgin> that's the only thing that matters
10:01 < maaku> But turning an aspiring transhumanist to HPMoR or LessWrong is sabotaging.
10:02 < mgin> it's enjoyable. it's a pleasure to read, in and of itself.
10:02 < mgin> that's the whole fucking point of fiction.
10:02 < maaku> Like, idk, sending an aspiring scientist to a scientology recruitment center.
10:03 < FourFire> maaku, you have a very low opinion of LW
10:03 < FourFire> Perhaps I am a cult member...
10:04 < FourFire> perhaps LW community is optimized too much towards improving the lives of the nerdy/weird people who turn up (and spreading the gratuitous identifying memes) rather than furthering transhumanist goals
10:05 < FourFire> but to compare them to Scientology is a bit far..
10:05 < FourFire> or are you NRx, maaku ?
10:05 < maaku> No idea what NRx even is
10:05 < maaku> I tihnk it is perfectly appropriate comparison.
10:06 < maaku> LW exhibits strong cultish behavior around dogma that undermines its very stated goals.
10:06  * mgin is friendly with reaction philosophy
10:08 < maaku> Despite being founded by people who claim to be looking for others to collaborate on a positive singularity, it actually has only accomplished stealing would-be transhumanists away into a dogma of anti-science and revealed truths
10:09 < mgin> that wasn't why it was founded...
10:09 < mgin> besides, how is LW anti-science? I've never heard that before
10:09 < maaku> mgin: should I find quotes from EY on this?
10:09 < mgin> you should.
10:10 < mgin> the center of LW is rationality, not transhumanism or singularitarianism
10:10 < mgin> http://lesswrong.com/about/
10:11 < maaku> mgin: LW (originally, his posts on overcoming bias) was started by EY to develop 'rationalists' to help on his quest to build friendly AI
10:11 < maaku> is this bit of history lost these days?
10:11 < FourFire> heh
10:11 < mgin> yes and no
10:12 < FourFire> he wanted more "alive" people to talk to without having to stoop down from his high IQ and explain everything in detail to
10:12 < mgin> the latter is more of an ultimate motivation, but the primary motivation of lesswrong is to espouse rationality / raise the sanity waterline and whatnot
10:12 < maaku> FourFire: heh
10:13 < mgin> i've been following Eliezer for more than 10 years
10:13 < maaku> mgin: I'm sorry :(
10:13 < mgin> i read "what is the singularity" and "why work toward the singularity" on singinst.org back in like 2003
10:14 < FourFire> look into, say this post: http://lesswrong.com/lw/kh/explainers_shoot_high_aim_low/
10:14 < mgin> also spent some time on the SL4 mailing list ^_^
10:14 < FourFire> "everyone is too dumb to understand what you're saying
10:14 < FourFire> "
10:17 < maaku> mgin: I once thought I could fix LW as a contrarian. I later learned that to engage itself was a mistake (http://lesswrong.com/lw/m81/)
10:17 < mgin> what's your problem anyway?
10:17 < maaku> If you want to be a "rationalist" then learn what you can about actual, experimental science, and perform it yourself.
10:18 < maaku> Actual lab work will do way more than any philosophical mutterings.
10:18 < mgin> okay?
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10:18 < maaku> ... and I'll stop clogging up the logs here
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10:20 < maaku> mgin: my problem is the dozen or so truly smart people who I have been trying to get to contribute to actually working on transhumanist projects (as they once used to), but are now totally wrapped up in solving FAI philosophy problems
10:20 < mgin> a lot of great stuff has come out of LW and Eliezer especially. it's not secret the crowd of people there are deranged and so on, but that's a separate issue
10:20 < maaku> that, I think, is ontopic for this channel. how do we get more people to actually work on transhumanist projects.
10:20 < mgin> what's an FAI philosophy problem?
10:20 < CaptHindsight> money
10:20 < CaptHindsight> and time
10:21 < mgin> those are my AGI problems haha
10:21  * mgin needs money and time for AGI R&D
10:21 < maaku> mgin: go to intelligence.org and click on click on Research
10:21 < mgin> i've seen their stuff
10:21 < maaku> mgin: you mentioned earlier you are working on strong AI -- what's your project?
10:21 < FourFire> "<maaku> mgin: my problem is the dozen or so truly smart people who I have been trying to get to contribute to actually working on transhumanist projects (as they once used to), but are now totally wrapped up in solving FAI philosophy problems" that's worse than my problem
10:22 < CaptHindsight> it's like choosing warp drive as a project
10:22 < FourFire> I've found one, one IRL person who is apparently smarter than me, and they don't seem to be doing Anything...
10:22 < CaptHindsight> on a planet full of monkeys
10:22 < mgin> i'm still uncomfortable talking about it with others
10:22 < mgin> which is annoying
10:22 < maaku> FourFire: you need to change you environment (or your view of people)
10:22 < mgin> i'm debating being less secret about it
10:22 < maaku> mgin: feel free to PM me
10:22 < FourFire> like, getting them into LW would be an improvement, because at least then they might do some EA stuff
10:23 < maaku> I promise to be too distracted by bitcoin to steal your idea
10:23 < FourFire> maaku, yeah I am aware, but where is the right environment (and don't ****ing tell me "The Bay Area" or "Oxford")
10:24 < mgin> "effective altruism", lol. what an oxymoron
10:24 < FourFire> what dimension of my view of people stands out to you as openly fallacious (or harmful) ?
10:24 < maaku> FourFire: I don't mean change locations. maybe find a club or meetup?
10:24 < mgin> maaku: i PM'd you
10:25 < maaku> FourFire: or a project to workon (there's a couple ongoing this channel)
10:25 < FourFire> I tried to make a tregular meetup, but my comparative advantage isn't organising social events, and after four months of trying, I gave up
10:25 < mgin> maaku: i share your disgust of the MIRI research program
10:25 < FourFire> yes, I'm working on a couple of projects, a few short-ish term, one long term
10:26 < mgin> if there's anyone interested and qualified to try to actually build an AGI/FAI i'd be interested in talking to them
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10:26 < FourFire> mgin, you know Houshalter and I hang in an AI research Slack group
10:26 < FourFire> ask Houshalter for an invite
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10:26 < mgin> Houshalter: invite to said AI research slack group?
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10:37 < maaku> Houshalter: same here
10:39 < Houshalter> oh hello
10:39 < Houshalter> i need email adresses
10:39 < Houshalter> pm me
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10:40 < Houshalter> mgin, and maaku
10:42 < Houshalter> maaku, invite sent
10:49 < FourFire> maaku, please, tell me what you think is wrong with my view of people.
10:58 < kanzure> maaku: lately i have been formulating my objection to eliezer's mode of thinking as something along the lines of "well, that was never in the threat model to begin with, so no it doesn't make sense to direct all activity towards that sort of impossible-by-definition threat".
10:59 < kanzure> FourFire: i don't think you should be optimizing for intelligence with people you meet. i think you've got a lot out of me, and you don't even know whether i am intelligent.
11:00 < kanzure> couldn't care less if someone who is highly effective and correct happens to be low intelligence. worse things have happened in the world.
11:00 < FourFire> >  i think you've got a lot out of me,
11:00 < FourFire> not sure what you mean by that
11:00 < kanzure> value
11:00 < kanzure> utility points
11:01 < maaku> kanzure: good way of putting it
11:01 < FourFire> if you mean that i respect you to some extent, then yes, that's a function of my perception of your abnormally high apparent agency, plus apparent perspective on what goals are worth reaching
11:01 < kanzure> transfer or increase of utility is not necessarily linked to knowing whether your peers are intelligent, or whethey they are intelligent at all.
11:01 < FourFire> That implies intelligence, to me.
11:01 < FourFire> intelligence is just a multiplier in the formula which outputs "[good] agency"
11:03 < FourFire> if you have high agency then you're likely either highly lucky/well connected and dumb, or intelligent enough to make your own luck and connections.
11:03 < maaku> FourFire: I think you think too much about intelligence, and who has it
11:03 < FourFire> sure, ok
11:03 < kanzure> "LW community is optimized too much towards improving the lives of the nerdy/weird people who turn up" <-- yeah i am not convinced that they are optimized towards this at all.
11:03 < kanzure> maaku: that's a general affliction of that community in general, though! not FourFire's fault.
11:04 < FourFire> I may have disproportionally discussed intelligence in this channel, and overly correlated my own intelligence with my agency, because I feel like I have way too low agency compared to what I think I should have
11:05 < kanzure> i think intelligence is an okay topic in this channel, just be prepared for me and others to shit all over that concept
11:05 < FourFire> sure, I wouldn't bring up a topic if I knew everyone would just agree with me on it, what's to learn from that?
11:06 < FourFire> kanzure, well I'm not really active on the site, mostly in the channel, for the past four years.
11:06 < FourFire> it's a unrepresentative sample of the LW demographic
11:07 < kanzure> how unrepresentative
11:08 < Houshalter> I don't really agree with MIRI's approach to FAI. They focus on really philosophical stuff
11:09 < maaku> FourFire: if by "have too little agency" you mean "not doing stuff", you improve that by doing stuff.
11:09 < FourFire> I'm not sure, but I know average opinion on multiple relevant topics, for example in the surveys' is skewed to some extent from the LW surveytaker's average
11:09 < kanzure> maaku: also, i agree with CaptHindsight's statement about money and time being useful to get people to work on more transhumanist projects. but somewhat of a too general answer.
11:10 < kanzure> FourFire: have you acquired a protein crystallography friend yet?
11:10 < FourFire> maaku, yes, I am aware, I am lazy, but also my brain seems to not be very well suited for not being lazy, moreso than I experience other people's agency
11:10 < FourFire> kanzure, noop
11:11 < mgin> why do you keep saying "agency" over and over again
11:11 < FourFire> but then I don't really hang around the university, or scout out my workplace for stuff, I'm prone to fall into a subsistence living routine :/
11:11 < kanzure> also, why do people keep using protein ribbon diagrams? how do they decide what gets to be the "real" backbone.
11:12 < FourFire> I bet there's at least one company at my workplace which does that
11:12 < FourFire> I have no idea
11:12 < FourFire> something about observed structural stability is my best guess
11:13 < kanzure> originally i tried not to look at ribbon diagrams because all of that empty space in the diagram seemed sort of pointless
11:13 < kanzure> i know that most molecules are empty space, but i still need to see the actual force fields
11:14 < kanzure> (much rather prefer electrostatic potential diagrams)
11:14 < CaptHindsight> kanzure: well I was just posting a short comment, not putting on a pageant  :)
11:16 < kanzure> probably i'll make a lurker survey soon to get some Actual Data on the problem
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11:49 < maaku> FourFire: excuses. laziness is a solveable problem
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11:54 < maaku> Houshalter: any reason for slack instead of here or ##AGI?
11:55 < Houshalter> well the existing AGI communities on IRC are absolutely awful. a bunch of crazy people and trolls have taken over
11:55 < maaku> so make a new IRC channel
11:55 < FourFire> maaku, yes, I know ...
11:55 < chris_99> #ai was pretty retarded last time i was in there heh
11:56 < Houshalter> it still is. don't go there
11:56 < FourFire> slack has a higher barrier to entry as someone has to be interested enough to give up a real email address
11:56 < Houshalter> i didn't choose slack though, i'm not the founder. I think Nick B did, and he's gone now
11:56 < FourFire> yeah.
11:56 < maaku> well as a closed system I'm unlikey to initiate a conversation there
11:56 < Houshalter> but it has worked out. the quality of discussion is a bit higher than what I expect on IRC. that might just be the members though
11:57 < Houshalter> also you would be surprised how many people don't know how to use or just won't use IRC
11:57 < maaku> It's not accessibility concerns over slack
11:58 < maaku> It's the closed ecosystem
11:58 < Houshalter> the biggest advantage by far is that it archives the discussion. I don't have to leave a client open 24/7. I can just open it up in the morning and see wht people talked about last night
11:58 < Houshalter> i'm very glad we didn't create an IRC channel for that reason
11:59 < maaku> Houshalter: there's these things called irc bouncers and log bots. you should use them
11:59 < Houshalter> i have no idea how to set that up and i doubt most people know they exist. slack just does it automatically. it's great
12:00 < maaku> Houshalter: are you only on IRC when your computer is online?
12:02 < maaku> I can make you an account on my quassel server if you like
12:03 < Houshalter> yes
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12:04 < Houshalter> i'm slowly growing to hate my IRC client too
12:05 < justanotheruser> "xchat 2.8.6-2 Windows Vista"
12:05 < justanotheruser> o_O
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12:09 < Houshalter> what?
12:09 < Houshalter> who are you
12:09 < Houshalter> how do you know these things
12:09 < maaku> Houshalter: /whois Houshalter
12:10 < justanotheruser> welcome to irc
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12:10 < Houshalter> I don't see any information about my client
12:12 < justanotheruser> Houshalter: /ctcp justanotheruser version
12:13 < maaku> Houshalter: PM
12:13 < Houshalter> "VERSION Internet Explorer Webchat Plugin 2.0.3 - Microsoft Windows 2000" O_o
12:14 < chris_99> haha, is that fake
12:14 < justanotheruser> ?
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12:19 < Houshalter> that's justanotheruser's ctcp
12:19 < justanotheruser> Houshalter: the ctcp version response is just whatever your client decides to respond with
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12:39 < QuadIngi> justanotherusr, maaku it is my intention to setup a bouncer, and indeed become more proficient in techical things of that sort, such as writing a personal wiki, and so on, but I never seem to get around to it
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12:39 < FourFire> You could call this laziness
12:40 < FourFire> but it's not like I'm idle, I'm active in my daily work routines, and forced social interaction and so on, I just don't seem to take the initiative to make significant progress on anything which isn't continuing the status quo.
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12:52 < mgin> "forced social interaction" lol
13:26 < kanzure> maaku: i suspect that the reason why slack has caught on at all is the one-click onboarding.. any additional step to get to a chatroom is friction that eliminates users.
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14:05 < kanzure> bloop
14:08 < kanzure> ugh sensorica is spamming the diybio mailing list now
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14:17 < justanotherusr> SENSORICA: an open, decentralized and self-organizing value network, designing, producing, and distributing sensing and sensemaking solutions.
14:17 < kanzure> they have been spamming the openmanufacturing mailing list for years
14:17 < chris_99> some of the projects look pretty cool though
14:17 < kanzure> at one point i wanted to ban the guy, but then someone said something like "oh this isn't crap" so i haven't looked since 2009
14:17 < kanzure> in retrospect my strategy is probably suboptimal
14:18 < kanzure> considering that was around the time i applied the same logic to bitcoin
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14:42 < kanzure> reason@fightaging.org commenting about bioviva https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10409842
15:00 < mgin> dude
15:01 < mgin> why the fuck don't we just crowd fund clinical trials
15:01 < mgin> and they just release their products as supplements
15:01 < mgin> the cycle could go from decades to months
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15:01 < mgin> why the fuck is that not happening
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15:05 < FourFire> mgin, because economic incentive
15:06 < mgin> not sure about this particular case
15:06 < kanzure> clinical trials are too expensive
15:06 < kanzure> crowdfunding isn't going to raise $100M/week for $potential_cure_x- at that scale you need government intervention or something
15:07 < mgin> why? manufacture the drugs and give em to people
15:07 < mgin> why does that cost money
15:07 < kanzure> the answer to that question is the fda
15:07 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/fda
15:07 < mgin> like what if i wanted to run a trial of nervonic acid
15:07 < mgin> not sure why nobody has tried this yet
15:08 < mgin> pay the cost to synthesize the stuff, and recruit some volunteers
15:08 < kanzure> there's also concerns about self-reporting errors
15:08 < kanzure> lies can be identified using statistics as long as most of your data is non-lie but w/e
15:09 < mgin> well in the case of the nervonic acid trial we would give them objective tests of cognition, so it's controlled
15:09 < kanzure> "we"- the people you are paying to conduct the trial?
15:09 < kanzure> or do you mean the participants?
15:10 < mgin> seriously, does anyone know where i could get some? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervonic_acid
15:11 < kanzure> today in #lesswrong they all thought peer review happened before publication and conduction of an experiment >:-(
15:12 < mgin> how hard is it to source some of this stuff, honestly?>
15:12 < mgin> i could recruit some volunteers and run a trial myself
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15:47 < FourFire> kanzure, generalizing a bit there
15:47 < FourFire> maybe three people agreed on that
15:48 < FourFire> in a channel of ~280, of which maybe 50 are regularly active
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15:58 < atomical> hi
15:59 < delinquentme> hi atomical
15:59 < delinquentme> "If the gap is small enough (<1 nm), electrons can cross the gap via quantum tunneling. "
15:59 < delinquentme> how can we image things of sizes > 1nm if this is the case?
15:59 < atomical> what if there is no gene currently in the body to prevent aging and we have to design our own gene? wouldn't the body repair itself if it could?
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16:12 < delinquentme> atomical, it kinda does
16:12 < delinquentme> telomerase being one of these molecules
16:13 < delinquentme> theres a number of ways the body repairs itself
16:13 < atomical> but it doesn't repair the sort of oxidative damage associated with aging
16:13 < delinquentme> it does
16:13 < delinquentme> oxidative damage is a pretty wide term though
16:15 < delinquentme> "Cells are known to eliminate three types of damage to their DNA by chemically reversing it."
16:15 < delinquentme> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_repair#DNA_repair_mechanisms
16:26 < kanzure> "In the last chapter, Camus outlines the legend of Sisyphus who defied the gods and put Death in chains so that no human needed to die. When Death was eventually liberated and it came time for Sisyphus himself to die, he concocted a deceit which let him escape from the underworld. Finally captured, the gods decided on his punishment for all eternity. He would have to push a rock up a mountain; upon reaching the top, the rock would roll ...
16:26 < kanzure> ... down again, leaving Sisyphus to start over. Camus sees Sisyphus as the absurd hero who lives life to the full, hates death, and is condemned to a meaningless task, who must be imagined happy."
16:27 < kanzure> atomical: genetics of anti-aging is probably going to involve many different genes and alleles
16:27 < kanzure> and is exceedingly unlikely to involve only one gene
16:27 < atomical> ah
16:27 < kanzure> here is one perspective on anti-aging: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/aging_roadmap.txt
16:28 < atomical> seems kind of weird that Liz Parrish received the follistatin gene
16:28 < kanzure> she should have picked gfp or some other simple reporter gene
16:28 < kanzure> i don't think follistatin is an ideal target
16:28 < kanzure> you need to pick something that is trivial to detect
16:28 < atomical> so is she going to get ripped now?
16:29 < kanzure> well, if she used a gfp reporter approach, she would be able to look at her blood (or something) to determine if gfp is being expressed. then she could make some reasonable guesses as to whether follistatin is being expressed.
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16:29 < kanzure> (actually, there might be a blood test for follistatin?)
16:29 < kanzure> anyway, i think she could have picked better targets
16:30 < yashgaroth> immunogenicity of gfp
16:30 < kanzure> immune system hates gfp?
16:31 < yashgaroth> it's not human so yeah
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16:31 < kanzure> can you think of a better test case than follistatin?
16:33 < yashgaroth> sure, but not one that'll be as potentially effective as an anti-aging protein
16:33 < kanzure> why would an anti-aging protein be useful here? you wont see effects for a long, long time.
16:33 < kanzure> how about a certain toxin resistance gene, and then she can try to kill herself with a toxin.
16:33 < yashgaroth> well, it has muscle-growth effects as well
16:33 < atomical> http://www.ergo-log.com/follistatin.html
16:33 < kanzure> (although personally i would prefer the simplicity of fluorescence......)
16:34 < atomical> are bodybuilders already lining up for this?
16:34 < atomical> i wonder if tour de france riders have done this
16:34 < yashgaroth> not while it still costs 6 figures to produce enough AAV
16:34 < kanzure> bodybuilders are open to trying new things but the logistics of selling them the goods are kinda complex (because you'll get shutdown if you have shitty opsec)
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16:35 < yashgaroth> steroids are one thing since they're practically OTC in other countries, and have some legal routes in the US for "low testosterone", but biopharmaceuticals and especially viral vectors don't benefit from either
16:37 < yashgaroth> also you can still quantify circulating follistatin, though most of it's cell-surface bound, depending on the isoform...still, if she had blood work and/or data from beforehand you can check whether her levels have increased
16:37 < atomical> opsec?
16:37 < kanzure> operational security-- don't get busted
16:38 < atomical> follistatin gene therapy would be the next level up from taking a research chemical
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16:38 < kanzure> yashgaroth: if i was in her shoes i wouldn't be particularly happy with just "well the levels increased". physial evidence, like fluoresence, is much better.
16:38 < atomical> and research chemicals are popular among the PEDs crowd
16:38 < kanzure> PEDs?
16:38 < kanzure> *physical
16:38 < yashgaroth> performance enhancing drugs I assume
16:39 < kanzure> and AAV wouldn't count as a "research chemical" because...?
16:39 < kanzure> virus too molecular, not enough chemicalz!!11one
16:39 < atomical> yeah, performance enhancing drugs
16:40 < atomical> for performance enhancing research chemicals i mean sarms, gw501516, sr9009, etc.
16:40 < kanzure> .wik sr9009
16:40 < yoleaux> "SR9009 is a research drug that was developed by Professor Thomas Burris of the Scripps Research Institute as an agonist of Rev-ErbA (i.e., increases the constitutive repression of genes regulated by Rev-ErbA) with a half-maximum inhibitory concentration (IC50) = 670 nM for Rev-ErbAα and IC50 = 800 nM for Rev-ErbAβ." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR9009
16:40 < kanzure> .wik gw501516
16:40 < yoleaux> "GW501516 (also known as GW-501,516, GW1516, GSK-516 and on the black market as Endurobol) is a PPARδ receptor agonist that was invented in a collaboration between Ligand Pharmaceuticals and GlaxoSmithKline in the 1990s, was entered into clinical development as a drug candidate for metabolic diseases and cardiovascular diseases, and was  …" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GW501516
16:41 < yashgaroth> next step up from research chemicals would be recombinant protein therapy with e.g. follistatin, and then a much larger step from there is gene therapy
16:42 < atomical> recombinant protein therapy? so injecting something?
16:42 < yashgaroth> yes, grow follistatin or another myostatin inhibitor in cell culture, then purify it, then shoot it into yourself
16:43 < atomical> how much would you guess the follistatin therapy cost?
16:43 < atomical> 10-20k?
16:43 < atomical> i can't imagine it would cost more than chemical synthesis
16:43 < atomical> the article i read quoted a professor as saying his students could do it in two days
16:43 < yashgaroth> well, it depends on swole you wanna get brah; and it's much more expensive than chemical synthesis
16:44 < yashgaroth> growing cells isn't easy, purifying a protein from those cells isn't easy
16:44 < atomical> women my age aren't into swole brah
16:44 < atomical> they into babies and six figures
16:45 < atomical> there's no way to revert what Liz Parrish did, right?
16:45 < atomical> she's essentially stuck with whatever changes she made for the rest of her life?
16:46 < kanzure> er, most people aren't into women their own age
16:46 < yashgaroth> expression should fade over time, though that's not reliable or quick
16:47 < atomical> if the telomerase gene therapy worked would she start to look younger?
16:48 < yashgaroth> I have professional disagreements with her science team about the usefulness of telomerase, but probably no
16:49 < kanzure> you'll have to ask all the mice that telomerase extension was tested on- did their mates look younger? y/n
16:50 < yashgaroth> depends on which serotype of AAV she used, i.e. what tissues it targets, and whether the increase in youthfulness is offset by supercancer
16:50 < kanzure> and then there's makeup, plastic surgery, photoshop, etc. which can be used to look more youthful anyway
16:50 < atomical> that's the worry, right?
16:50 < atomical> but she might get cancer in spite of the treatment
16:50 < kanzure> there's no cure for cancer
16:50 < atomical> no one would ever know because she's the only patient
16:51 < kanzure> even kiddos get cancer
16:51 < atomical> i hear death is pretty good at killing cancer
16:51 < kanzure> that's why you have child leukemia wards
16:51 < kanzure> yes, that's what chemotherapy is
16:53 < atomical> kanzure is your phonetic spelling for cancer?
16:54 < kanzure> nah
16:55 < atomical> how is Liz Parrish going to convince people that telomerase therapy actually did something?
16:55 < atomical> live until 140 and say I told you so?
16:56 < kanzure> that wasn't her goal
16:56 < atomical> her company is for profit, right?
16:56 < kanzure> her goal was to show that gene therapy is safe and not going to insta kill you
16:56 < atomical> there are worse things than insta death
16:59 < yashgaroth> also if she sees an increase in lean muscle mass, presumably from the follistatin; but mostly yeah it's to show that a massive dose of AAV won't fuck you up
17:01 < atomical> why even bother
17:01 < atomical> i care about efficacy
17:02 < atomical> if you're selling snake oil efficacy doesn't matter
17:04 < yashgaroth> people can review the current research literature on their own, and determine whether the approach has merit...or we can wait a hundred years for human life extension trials to wrap up
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17:30 < atomical> well, i'd go for it
17:30 < atomical> just because i'm bored
17:34 < fenn> lol superkanzure offsets youthfulness
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17:52 < atomical> i don't know, couldn't all that sympathy from cancer give you some anti-aging benefit as well?
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19:36 < kanzure> google scholar doesn't have a paper that was published 3 days ago :-/
19:36 < kanzure> "Global Brain Dynamics Embed the Motor Command Sequence of Caenorhabditis elegans" http://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(15)01196-4
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20:29 < kanzure> updates to list of biology hackerspaces https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DMN7Fgj7t9-KN7pANrySD3en0CAvvHmGx1kh48qjE5E/edit#gid=1392299940
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21:16 < fenn> reversible long-term male contraception project: http://www.parsemusfoundation.org/projects/vasalgel/
21:25 < kanzure> why not just sperm banking and vasectomies for everyone?
21:25 < kanzure> or stem cell banking
21:25 < fenn> expensive and unreliable
21:26 < fenn> this was developed in india btw
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21:30 < kanzure> perhaps some sort of abortion ray gun
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21:42 < maaku> kanzure: this is a reversible vsectomy
21:42 < maaku> it's actually pretty cool, albeit primitive tech
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23:16 < fenn> 20 minutes in and i can already tell the movie version of "the martian" is going to be better than the book
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23:19 < maaku> it was a surprisingly good movie
23:19 < maaku> i didn't read the book though
23:20 < Stskeeps> book's better (IMHO), more oh fuck moments
23:20 < Stskeeps> :P
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23:35 < nmz787> I just cried to this: http://video.pbs.org/video/1484202325/
23:35 < nmz787> .title
23:35 < yoleaux> Video: The Spirit of Tek | Watch Oregon Experience Online | PBS Video
23:36 < nmz787> "In 1945 four young entrepreneurs decided to start an electronics company in Portland, Oregon. The company was Tektronix. This program explores the people and philosophy that established Tektronix as Oregon's first high-tech industry leader."
--- Log closed Mon Oct 19 00:00:01 2015