--- Log opened Sun Oct 25 00:00:06 2015
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03:07 < fenn> http://mathbabe.org/2015/10/20/guest-post-dirty-rant-about-the-human-brain-project/
03:08 < Viper168> the human brian project
03:08 < Viper168> what's so special about him
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03:56 < fenn> "I think some people are upset because of the scale of money being diverted to this one project. Let’s compare with federal grants awarded this year in all disciplines at Berkeley and MIT. This one project will get more than all of those put together.
04:06 < mosasaur> http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-basic-science-1445613954
04:07 < fenn> note the type of bias the wall street journal would be expected to have
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04:12 < mosasaur> dam, I was trying turn in into a strawman for people not needing communities
04:12 < mosasaur> it
04:13 < fenn> this article is entirely about technology, not science
04:15 < mosasaur> at some point, with science being used to enable inequality for so long, one starts to wonder if it is still a good boy that was just led onto the wrong path
04:15 < fenn> what are you even talking about
04:16 < mosasaur> things like this: https://i.reddit.com/r/TrueAskReddit/comments/3prcik/why_do_americans_have_a_negative_attitude_towards/cw9afjr
04:16 < fenn> use your words
04:17 < mosasaur> it's already possibly a reaction to some discussion I participated in on ##philosophy, but OK
04:18 < mosasaur> what we see here is people defending math, and physics, when most people have been taught it the wrong way
04:19 < fenn> i don't disagree, but that's hardly "science is used to enable inequality"
04:20 < fenn> it's just bad education, and bad epistemics in the field educational science, and widespread bad policy by education bureaucrats
04:20 < mosasaur> how can we discern pure math, which is supposed to be good, from the whole corrupt system it is taught in?
04:21 < fenn> you're asking for too much
04:21 < mosasaur> it goes down to the whole cryptic notation system that is designed to keep people from grasping the meaning
04:21 < fenn> if we had such a machine it would know all the answers to all of the problems
04:21 < mosasaur> but is math notation?
04:22 < fenn> mosasaur do you think chinese is designed to keep people from grasping the meaning?
04:25 < fenn> i don't like math notation either, but your assertion that it's all part of a vast conspiracy is lame
04:25 < mosasaur> sure, it happens with natural languages too
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04:27 < mosasaur> fenn: you're kind of assuming it was on purpose
04:27 < fenn> that's what it means when you say "used"
04:28 < mosasaur> I mean are predators evil? I think not, but we still try to prevent them from killing us
04:28 < fenn> if you unpack that metaphor you'll find some problems
04:29 < mosasaur> I think a certain mindset has co evolved with the way math and physics are taught and understood
04:31 < mosasaur> I unpack it in the same way that I don't think billionaires are evil, yet they stifle progress, or abuse the vast amounts of money they have acquired to steer humanity in the wrong direction
04:32 < fenn> please explain then
04:32 < mosasaur> but this presupposes something also present in math, a kind of abstracting away from reality
04:32 < mosasaur> like people, once they earned the money, now own it to do whatever they want
04:33 < mosasaur> but obviously this fails on a global scale
04:34 < mosasaur> there is also the "grand man" ideology that tries to reduce all progress to the efforts of one man with an idead
04:34 < fenn> so is the parallel you're trying to make that "academics, once they earn the academic cred, now do whatever they want"?
04:35 < mosasaur> sure, once you have tenure, you are relatively safe
04:36 < fenn> (as long as you don't make any politically inconvenient statements)
04:36 < mosasaur> but my point is about the ideas behind it, that are taken from math and physics
04:36 < mosasaur> like everything can be reduced to a single cause
04:37 < fenn> i think that is just a human cognitive bias, prevalent in every field
04:37 < drethelin> notation is used to facilitate understaning not block it
04:37 < drethelin> it's an exocortex
04:37 < drethelin> when you write down a novel, the goal is not to make spoken words harder to understand
04:37 < drethelin> even though humans can speak without knowing how to read and write
04:37 < mosasaur> ideas that are not attributed to a specific person "owning" that idea, are plagiarism
04:37 < drethelin> it's for the book to act as an external memory store
04:39 < fenn> mosasaur without a rigorous system of attribution we end up falling prey to people like bre pettis of makerbot, or quentin tarantino
04:39 < mosasaur> drethelin: a memory store, as we currently define it, uses a single place for a single thing, but that is not how our brains work
04:39 < fenn> where only the popularizers of an idea are remembered, and the factors that go into actual invention or creativity are forgotten
04:41 < mosasaur> popularization depends on memetic propagation, but that requires things different from the way the knowledge is created
04:42 < fenn> yeah so when you fund only science popularizers instead of scientists, what happens?
04:44 < drethelin> neil tyson
04:44 < mosasaur> things like me only recently finding out why cos2x + sin2x = 1
04:45 < fenn> er, i think that's unrelated
04:45 < mosasaur> things like I have been thinking I was bad at math for a long time
04:46 < fenn> in your cast, math popularizers would actually be helpful
04:46 < fenn> case*
04:47 < mosasaur> it's very related to the competitive way of hiding how things are done and then claim you're smart, but we find that everywhere in society
04:47 < fenn> i don't know any scientists like that
04:48 < mosasaur> so all scientist you know publish their data?
04:48 < mosasaur> probably a very selective set of scientists
04:48 < fenn> it's not everyone's job to teach you everything, and nothing would get done if all the scientsts switched to mainstream education
04:49 < fenn> anyway, yes, scientists i know publish their data
04:49 < fenn> the problems are usually things like, they publish in closed journals, or don't know how to use version control, or have bad documentation
04:50 < mosasaur> I know things are touchy when you're talking all or nothing
04:51 < fenn> i don't consider pharmaceutical researchers to be scientists
04:51 < fenn> like, drug development search pipeline engineers
04:52 < fenn> but this is just the usual "oh noes, the ambiguity of words" philosophy discussion all over again
04:52 < mosasaur> right, and this is a doing environment
04:53 < fenn> it's just not a useful or enlightening conversation to have again, for me
04:53 < mosasaur> I agree, I don't know what to do about it either
04:54 < fenn> one strategy is to try to make a good argument in favor of what the other person is trying to say
04:55 < fenn> that way instead of nit-picking at edge cases you're making bold statements about what you actually wanted to talk about
04:57 < mosasaur> I thought that wall street link was up your alley, even though it was motivated thinking, and I know this even without  knowing what this wall street journalist's bias is
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04:58 < mosasaur> but I liked it still
04:59 < mosasaur> I think we need less competition, more cooperation, but that points to science, and science has been captured and turned into an instrument of inequality
04:59 < fenn> yes i have had similar thoughts about a technological superorganism like the gaia hypothesis
05:00 < fenn> but their recommendation "cancel all public science because business is more profitable" is completely missing the point
05:00 < mosasaur> gaia is a meme, memes exist
05:01 < fenn> we don't have a word for what i'm talking about, at least i don't know of any
05:02 < fenn> or name
05:02 < fenn> i'd rather not dredge up yet another greek myth
05:03 < fenn> mosasaur you should talk to scientists
05:04 < fenn> you seem to have this idea about people that doesn't match up with my experience
05:04 < mosasaur> maybe technium is your word? although I don't know about this blog: http://kk.org/thetechnium/
05:05 < fenn> no, that's just talking about the raw propagation of technology
05:05 < mosasaur> great, I can't see my idea about people, so tell me
05:06 < fenn> i mean the sum of all interactions of thinking humans using technologically mediated communication and technologically enhanced thought to further develop technology in a recursive process
05:07 < fenn> holy crap i think i made the predecessor to this steering wheel thingy http://kk.org/thetechnium/files/2015/03/B8xzpVJIgAAdk7L.jpg
05:11 < fenn> ah nevermind that is an actual F1 wheel
05:13 < fenn> something like an uncle
05:14 < fenn> mosasaur i'm not going to try to put words into your mouth when you can't even bother to explain your own ideas
05:14 < mosasaur> wait, I said nothing?
05:18 < fenn> you made some vague metaphorical assertions about inequality and billionaires and the poor state of math education
05:19 < fenn> "On the chance that desirable futures ARE possible, we need to imagine them." i couldn't agree more with kevin kelly on this point
05:20 < mosasaur> it's because everyone follows the mammon but not me. I'm not extra ethical or something, my path just prevented me
05:20 < kanzure> mathematical notation should be subjected to scientific experimentation to find notations that people can learn the quickest, versus those that seem to be the most useful, etc.
05:20 < fenn> i don't think more notation is required at this point
05:21 < fenn> just better interfaces to simulations so that people can anchor their intuitions better
05:22 < kanzure> whatever; all of that should be tested instead of assuming that the first notation that phd mathematician candidates happen to use is the one that is ideal for various purposes.
05:22 < fenn> agreed
05:22 < fenn> educational science is a shit show
05:22 < fenn> worse than nutrition even
05:23 < mosasaur> I'm in favor of automatized proof checkers. What language they're in is the next battle, but then we'd at least be a whole level up.
05:23 < kanzure> shouldn't we have something approximating an "actual evidence of a learning curve for <subject x>" at this point?
05:23 < fenn> they exist, it's called type theory (or so i'm told)
05:23 < fenn> coq is one implementation off the top of my head
05:23 < kanzure> microsoft recently released their z3 theorem prover
05:23 < kanzure> open-sourced i mean
05:24 < fenn> but i'd like to point out that type theory is 9 zillion levels of meta above what actual engineers and scientists use to do science and build things
05:24 < kanzure> mosasaur: i think you have been hanging out with the wrong people and the wrong ideas. you need some serious recalibration :-).
05:25 < kanzure> mosasaur: you sound like a redditor that can't get over dawkin's love of memes. but the utility of knowing about memes is actually quite low....
05:25 < kanzure> not zero, but low
05:27 < mosasaur> I never fit in anywhere, but sometimes I can bring ideas from one community to another
05:27 < kanzure> "A survey of rollback-recovery protocols in message-passing systems" http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.52.4299&rep=rep1&type=pdf
05:27 < kanzure> show me a novel idea
05:29 < mosasaur> maybe I can fix that python bot if it's still broken
05:31 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
05:31 < kanzure> knock yourself out
05:34 < kanzure> 04:55 < fenn> that way instead of nit-picking at edge cases you're making bold statements about what you actually wanted to talk about
05:34 < kanzure> :o
05:34 < mosasaur> I meant the one reacting to .py commands. Or is that the same?
05:35 < kanzure> yoleaux is dpk's bot, he will fix that eventually, but paperbot is much higher priority for hplusroadmappers :-)
05:36 < mosasaur> OK
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07:26 < kanzure> fenn: for your amusement http://www.seasteading.org/architectural-design-contest/metabolic-city/
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07:29 < fenn> did i mention i hate architects
07:29 < kanzure> not lately
07:30 < fenn> needs more gondolas
07:31 < kanzure> so does this just sink when it's storming?
07:32 < fenn> yes because while they copied the breakwater ring layout, they didn't include a breakwater
07:33 < kanzure> can't find breakwater ring link
07:34 < fenn> some example pictures http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/reply/floating-breakwater-ring-seastead/
07:34 < kanzure> i think i still prefer your plans
07:34 < fenn> hmm these are not really what i meant
07:36 < kanzure> quick, write it down before it disappears from this timeline
07:37 < kanzure> er, i mean, quick write it down and hash it, because hashing....
07:39 < FourFire> wtf "wave protection"
07:39 < FourFire> as if drawing some squiggles makes up for bad design.
07:39 < kanzure> what's the largest submersible semi-mobile habitat we could put 10 or 20 meters under the waterline?
07:40 < fenn> hmm i guess eric has totally embraced PSP's now so none of the new fancy graphics illustrations include a breakwater ring: http://tmp2.wikia.com/wiki/Aquarius
07:42 < fenn> i just came across this page http://imulead.com/tolimared/concretesubmarine/picturegallery/
07:44 < mosasaur> if they can make buildings invisible to earthquakes, why not make floating cities invisible to waves?
07:44 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqLr0k6g3BA
07:44 < yoleaux> submarine yacht, inside - YouTube
07:44 < kanzure> floating cities just don't seem like a good idea at all
07:45 < fenn> it's too early to say
07:45 < kanzure> that's surface-dweller talk
07:45 < fenn> i'm mostly annoyed at clueless "design" people who have no idea what the actual challenges are
07:45 < kanzure> "i prefer to live perpendicular to flat surfaces, shitlord!"
07:46 < kanzure> can't quite get this right, oops
07:46 < fenn> we prefer the term inclusional orthogonality
07:47 < kanzure> i want submersible aircraft hangars and stuff
07:49 < fenn> as far as "biggest" the nuclear subs are pretty damn big already
07:49 < fenn> you'd have to provide really good reasons for wanting bigger
07:50 < kanzure> other submarine manufacture?
07:50 < fenn> how does a GSV make a GSV
07:50 < fenn> another topic eric hunting liked to ramble about
07:50 < kanzure> gsv=?
07:50 < fenn> general systems vehicle
07:51 < kanzure> "put humans in the loop" PROBLEM SOLVED, MORTAL
07:51 < fenn> no it's a topological problem
07:51 < fenn> how do you get a door through a door of the same size
07:52 < fenn> the obvious answer is "don't use a circular door"
07:52 < kanzure> probably modular construction blocks, followed by internal welding and then removing any jigs or superfluous structural stuff from the initial linking
07:52 < fenn> but things underwater want to be circular because physics
07:53 < kanzure> also you could deploy temporary surface structures
07:53 < kanzure> but not sure how that helps with manufacturing anything
07:53 < fenn> that's surface dweller talk, bah!
07:53 < fenn> also, this came up in the context of orbital structures not underwater
07:54 < kanzure> breakwater rings?
07:54 < fenn> no, the how to build an airlock that can transport a bigger airlock through it
07:55 < kanzure> inflatable airlocks, problem solved
07:55 < fenn> ah.
07:55 < kanzure> do you really need the airlock to be finished when it exits the first airlock?
07:55 < fenn> i don't know
07:56 < kanzure> is this one of those shitty zen master puzzles that everyone hates
07:56 < fenn> no
07:58 < fenn> have you really not read any of the iain banks culture novels?
07:58 < kanzure> does that really surprise you
08:00 < kanzure> most scifi is just endless pages of disappointment for me
08:00 < kanzure> why should i want to subject myself to that?
08:00 < fenn> because it's better than reddit or whatever crap you're currently wasting time on
08:02 < fenn> iirc the first scene in the first book is a floating city getting destroyed by a giant wave
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08:03 < kanzure> yeah i don' treally know how to use downtime productively
08:03 < kanzure> but constant disappointment is not fun
08:06 < mosasaur> banks has this bad guy turned good vaguely threatening angle
08:08 < fenn> yer typical antihero
08:09 < kanzure> wsa gonna be doing tornado/zeromq things today
08:09 < kanzure> or verbnurbs mechanism design for mouse handling
08:10 < fenn> i have been putting off learning how to effectively use solvespace for several months now
08:10 < kanzure> (or mouse handling cost estimates... but more curious how far i can push the concept of automatic mouse handling)
08:10 < kanzure> verbnurbs seems to have cleaner code, better tests, and also it's no longer javascript-only
08:11 < kanzure> http://verbnurbs.com/examples/surfaceIntersection.html
08:11 < fenn> last i looked it required webgl which my computer won't ever support
08:11 < kanzure> python version doesn't require webgl
08:11 < kanzure> and the actual implementation isn't webgl-specific
08:12 < kanzure> guess that means someone should write a visualizer for the non-browser version
08:12 < fenn> i'm just not at all interested in the idea of a browser based cad program
08:12 < fenn> apparently a lot of people think this is a good idea but i can't figure out why
08:13 < fenn> i'm all for a better nurbs based geometry engine though
08:13 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/2015-10-25-101304--verbnurbs-com-examples-surfaceIntersection-html-1445785971891.png
08:13 < kanzure> verbnurbs isn't browser-based anymore
08:14 < fenn> ok so that's like the bare minimum geometrical primitives needed to start building a cad program around
08:14 < kanzure> sure
08:15 < fenn> is anyone building a cad program around it?
08:15 < kanzure> need some chamfers, fillets, etc.
08:15 < kanzure> well, he was making a browser interface around it, but it didn't look interesting to me
08:15 < fenn> need constraints, features, labels, 2d import, 3d export etc
08:15 < kanzure> there's a good api under the hood, i'd rather just use that
08:15 < kanzure> constraint solving is another open problem though... not even gce seems like good fit :-/.
08:16 < fenn> constraint solving is an open problem?
08:16 < kanzure> labels, doable... features, don't know implementation details of features. i assume "different geometry with semantics".
08:16 < kanzure> constraint solving for an open-source cad engine is an open problem, yeah. i don't think brlcad has anything for this.
08:16 < kanzure> opencascade has a few things but... meh. pythonocc has demonstrated the use of that constraint solver but buggy as hell.
08:16 < fenn> features is things like holes, extrusions, threads, chamfers
08:17 < kanzure> ok, so pre-defined surface manipulation operations
08:17 < kanzure> chamfers and fillets are more difficult than holes and extrusions
08:17 < fenn> yep
08:17 < kanzure> i think 2d import is doable by single programmer-day of effort
08:18 < kanzure> 3d export... not sure how to do that. pythonized version of verbnurbs, then ctypes/cffi bindings to stepcode?
08:19 < kanzure> or emscripten version of stepcode (just kidding)
08:20 < kanzure> most of effort there will be in initial setup of bindings, followed by hooking up types between verbnurbs and stepcode and any necessary differences or mutations :-/
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08:21 < fenn> it's kinda embarrassing to read things like this from 1996 http://alum.wpi.edu/~gregm/thesis/node11.html
08:22 < kanzure> why?
08:22 < fenn> because there's still no open source cad program that does that
08:22 < kanzure> i suspect some of the cad lingo is the result of commercial marketing materials from the era
08:22 < kanzure> "history! parametric! features!!"
08:22 < kanzure> "features" is a terrible name
08:23 < kanzure> all of this relational stuff is easy to do once you have the cad kernel done
08:24 < kanzure> i wonder if porting fillets from opencascade would be dramatically easier than porting opencascade's surface-surface intersection code
08:24 < fenn> no
08:24 < kanzure> "BRepFilletAPI" http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade/
08:24 < fenn> fillets are one of the most complex things in opencascade
08:24 < kanzure> "FilletSurf - API giving only geometric information about fillets for Toyota Project UV4. TwoExtremityOnEdge, OneExtremityOnEdge, NoExtremityOnEdge, etc."
08:25 < kanzure> "BRepFilletAPI - MakeFillet, MakeChamfer, MakeFillet2d, see also BRepBuilderAPI."
08:25 < fenn> i don't think it needs to be quite so nutty, like nobody really needs variable radius fillets
08:25 < fenn> you can define the changing radii of a fillet with a curve (i think it can do elliptical fillets)
08:26 < fenn> but like, why
08:26 < kanzure> maybe opencascade fillet complexity is because (1) their programmers don't care about simplicity at all, and (2) underlying api sucked
08:26 < kanzure> https://github.com/tpaviot/oce/tree/master/src/BRepFilletAPI
08:27 < kanzure> gah i hate this so much. where's the actual implementation?
08:27 < fenn> i would be happy with just toroidal+cylindrical sections for fillets, and anything more complicated would be done with a nurbs patch modeler or custom python code
08:28 < fenn> a thing that minimizes error between a nurbs patch and a mathematical function would be nice
08:29 < kanzure> https://github.com/tpaviot/oce/tree/master/src/ChFi3d
08:30 < fenn> oh i guess thread roots aren't toroidal, meh
08:30 < kanzure> https://github.com/tpaviot/oce/blob/master/src/ChFi3d/ChFi3d_ChBuilder_C3.cxx
08:30 < fenn> i am so not looking at any of that
08:31 < kanzure> you just don't like french source code
08:31 < fenn> guilty
08:31 < kanzure> we should submit patches to opencascade with klingon comments just to troll them
08:32 < fenn> lojban is more culturally neutral
08:32 < kanzure> "what do you mean not an accepted language? everything else seems to be."
08:35 < kanzure> i was thinking various large chunks of metal to handle small animals
08:35 < kanzure> automatic cage cleaning and such
08:36 < kanzure> re-mulching
08:36 < kanzure> dunno whether to call that mulching
08:37 < kanzure> scheduled socializing, or rfid tagging to pick members out of a group living together
08:37 < fenn> maybe treat it like a microfluidics chip instead of an object that needs manipulating
08:37 < kanzure> use plungers to push them around?
08:38 < fenn> here is a thing with such and such spatial frequency and corner radii, with valves that blow mulch and rodents around in air jets
08:38 < kanzure> i expect that the operational requirements for managing lots of cages will look strangely similar to managing lots of servers and racks
08:39 < fenn> nah much lower power density
08:39 < kanzure> (but cages do sound a little dumb to me; unlikely that cages are optimal structure for automatic handling of anything.)
08:40 < kanzure> no jackson labs / jax tour on youtube :-(
08:40 < fenn> maybe make everything out of pvc plumbing pipes and monitor the rodents with microwave radar imaging
08:41 < kanzure> no cages?
08:41 < fenn> let's not get philosophical about what is a cage
08:41 < kanzure> no i mean, pvc pipes only?
08:42 < fenn> yes
08:42 < kanzure> and then exercise wheels attached to valves and such?
08:42 < fenn> do they need exercise wheels? is that a thing?
08:43 < fenn> also, do they need light?
08:43 < fenn> light is easy to provide though
08:44 < kanzure> yes i think exercise wheels is necessary
08:44 < kanzure> as well as socialization
08:44 < kanzure> and group grooming seems to be required, but haven't looked at studies
08:45 < fenn> i'm trying to eliminate any robotics and just make all the manipulation as few moving parts as possible
08:45 < kanzure> rabbit restraints https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzh9_bmo4Q&t=4m30s
08:47 < kanzure> yeah i can see the appeal of no robotics
08:48 < kanzure> group socialization would seem to require robotics though
08:49 < fenn> "the archaic LD50 test" uhhh what do they expect us to use
08:49 < kanzure> strange how most of the youtube videos are about animal abuse investigations re: animal testing
08:49 < kanzure> i would expect an animal testing facility to throw up videos showing off how awesome their animals are doing
08:50 < kanzure> "socialization! playtime! look they aren't dropping dead from stress."
08:50 < kanzure> and then they can shame everyone else for not paying up for less harmful animal testing
08:52 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21H0tufUYUI
08:52 < yoleaux> Rat Breeding Facility sneak peek - YouTube
08:54 < fenn> most of the animal facility people are really worried that anything they show will be perceived negatively and used against them somehow
08:54 < fenn> i liked that cow carousel video
08:55 < kanzure> well, you do need to measure animal wellness somehow, and make sure the number doesn't drop below some threshold, and in general try to increase that value...
08:55 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/pjx0EgXflPM
08:55 < yoleaux> YouTube
08:55 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z7Ym0h-Jbs
08:55 < yoleaux> Rat Breeding Room!! - YouTube
08:56 < kanzure> youtube says pjx0EgXflPM is private
08:56 < fenn> man fuck the new internet
08:56 < fenn> nothing works anymore
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08:56 < kanzure> that's a lot of cage cleaning
08:58 < kanzure> i think they just push the food around over the cage and it drops in
09:01 < kanzure> when i owned a rabbit farm, i was using large sheets of plywood underneath each cage, and the cage floor was just some form of chickenwire. so cleaning was just apply water and replace plywood.
09:01 < kanzure> but mulch seems to be requirement here... hrm.
09:08 < fenn> you had a rabbit farm?
09:09 < kanzure> rabbits, frogs, fish, cats, hermit crabs, red-ear slider turtles, gerbils
09:09 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/JJRy82i8e5Q
09:09 < yoleaux> Fair Oaks Farms Adventure Center - America's Heartland - YouTube
09:09 < fenn> (cow carousel)
09:09 < kanzure> ((cow vacation resort))
09:13 < kanzure> mulch can work with pvc pipes. and you can put multple mice in a pvc pipe. probably works for socialization.
09:13 < kanzure> but how do you get a single one alone, and how do you clean without sending the critters to /dev/null?
09:16 < fenn> mulch has a different density so it can be separated from mice with air flows like separating wheat from chaff
09:17 < fenn> i'm not sure about separating mice from each other but probably something similar like a skydiving column
09:17 < fenn> mostly you'd wait until they are in their room alone and then pipe the entire room's contents out
09:18 < fenn> each mouse would have an RFID chip so they could be uniquely identified
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09:34 < maaku> fenn: did you just invent an indoor skydiving rig to sort rodents?
09:34 < maaku> that is why I love this awesome channel
09:35 < maaku> I am now awaiting your 'Transcriptic of mouse studies' startup
09:36 < kanzure> nah, selective breeding startup
09:36 < kanzure> so that fenn can get his giant wasp for human transportation
09:37 < kanzure> would skydiving column be compatible with young pinks?
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09:39 < kanzure> would internally-threaded pvc pipes be of any use? perhaps if the pipe was rotating at a slow rate?
09:39 < maaku> there's only one way to know
09:40 < kanzure> there ae many ways to know things
09:41 < maaku> kanzure: do you mean like as a switch for routing rodents?
09:41 < kanzure> nah i was thinking of waste cleanup.  but waste will just fall down when under rotation. so not helpful.
09:41 < kanzure> you could feed magnets to the mice and then apply an electromagnet while you flush the pvc pipe
09:43 < kanzure> or constant stream of water to move waste away. power-cleaning for when the tube has been vacated.
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12:21 < FourFire> > fenn> but things underwater want to be circular because physics
12:21 < FourFire> use oval doors
12:29 < fenn> i don't think ovals work
12:29 < fenn> clamshell maybe
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12:50 < chris_99> nmz787, about?
12:57 < kanzure> okay so we grow giant clams....
12:58 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3q38qg/iama_martin_shkreli_ceo_of_turing_pharmaceuticals/
12:59 < kanzure> hmm he has a drug for toxoplasmosis. hm.
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13:52 < Aurelius_Home2> kanzure : apparently Peter Rothman is in some FDA trial related to aging
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14:44 < FourFire> "<fenn> because there's still no open source cad program that does that" what's the best contender?
14:45  * FourFire just learned how to use FreeCAD last week
14:45 < kanzure> verbnurbs, solvespace
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15:39 < kanzure> Aurelius_Home2: should i know that person?
15:39 < Aurelius_Home2> he runs hplusmagazine
15:39 < Aurelius_Home2> and used to do virtual reality dev?
15:40 < kanzure> i talked on the phone with someone at hplusmagazine who was asking me some questions about how everything worked, this was about 8 or 9 months ago and i was extremely ill and i seem to have no record of this
15:41 < kanzure> i wonder what else i'm doing when i'm extremely ill..
15:41 < kanzure> anyway, that might have been peter rothman i guess
15:42 < kanzure> huh, i mean more than a year ago, weird.
16:57 < kanzure> bloo
16:57 < kanzure> +p
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17:25 < Josh|NH4H> Hey there
17:26 < maaku> kanzure: meet Josh|NH4H, the chemistry guy I was telling you about earlier
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17:53 < justanotheruser> bye
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18:43 < maaku> kanzure fenn et al : Josh|NH4H is a mechanical engineering graduate, but his work I'm familiar with is on terraforming chemistry and closing the loop on the chemical pathways of in-situ space resource usage or industrial processes
18:44 < maaku> he is also employable at the moment
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19:47 < kanzure> Josh|NH4H: have you seen things like "genetic engineering of bacteria to get stuff to grow on mars"?
19:54 < Josh|NH4H> Kanzure, I've heard of the idea and I've seen some stuff about extremophiles that would be good starting points
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19:57 < kanzure> someone was making somewhat-mars-like simulated habitats for bacteria. maybe this was an igem team or john cumbers. i forget.
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19:58 < maaku> kanzure has ideas for evolving extremophiles to survive in successively harsher environments
19:58 < maaku> it would be really nice if we had a bug that could live on the surface of mars as a base organism for synthetic bio purposes
19:59 < kanzure> yes; also, we can assume some basic conditions such as if we need to pollute mars with some feedstock everywhere (but has to be feedstock that we can make in orbit or something)
20:02 < Josh|NH4H> Such as fixed nitrogen?
20:03 < maaku> i would like to see a blimp incubator that concentrated what it could pull from the atmosphere to provide an environment for growing these microbes, then spray them out
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20:03 < maaku> load it up with a bunch of 'pellets' of various engineered microbes for various purposes, and a downward facing spectrometer
20:06 < Josh|NH4H> It might be best to encourage really intense cultivation of one area like the Valles or Hellas and then let the organisms spread according to biology and evolution
20:07 < maaku> or the poles
20:07 < maaku> lots of volatiles
20:07 < maaku> i wonder what the ideal environment would be
20:08 < Josh|NH4H> Where's the crater with that liquid water?
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20:12 < kanzure> dunno location
20:12 < kanzure> another option is that we can just terraform the planet we're currently on
20:12 < Josh|NH4H> I assume it's fairly equatorial
20:12 < Josh|NH4H> What would you do to make Earth more habitable?
20:12 < kanzure> cambrian genomics had a goal that went like "replace 40-60% of all plant life on earth with genetically engineered alternatives"
20:12 < kanzure> various photosynthesis improvements
20:13 < kanzure> bigger potatoes
20:13 < kanzure> that sort of thing
20:13 < Josh|NH4H> Better photosynthesis is good for crops, but might not be for flora in general
20:13 < kanzure> details, details, bah
20:13 < maaku> kanzure: but ... SPACE!
20:14 < Josh|NH4H> No reason we can't do both
20:14 < kanzure> Josh|NH4H: one of the things from this channel is a dna synthesis machine (in progress, design phase i guess) http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/
20:16 < Josh|NH4H> reading now
20:17 < maaku> kanzure: might replace "Each layer" with "Each successive scanline" to avoid the misunderstanding I had about building vertically
20:17 < maaku> and yes I know it's a wiki ... i should figure out how to make the change myself
20:19 < maaku> or are you actually targetting the same drops on successive passes? it is unclear to me
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20:29 < kanzure> but it is built vertically- the droplets are placed vertically on top of each other. they just happen to mix.
20:29 < kanzure> successive pass targeting, yeah
20:30 < kanzure> i think you're supposed to be able to print a page of colored ink, and then reprint the whole page with a different color, very closely covering all of the original dots
20:31 < maaku> right ok so you're doing both -- you're depositing an array of droplets, maybe up to ~100 drops per pixel to build a couple of dozen base pairs in each reaction chamber
20:31 < maaku> and then the 'pixels' merge together and combine their contents. is that correct?
20:31 < maaku> or do you micropipette to get the results of each pixel?
20:32 < kanzure> merging/micropipetting is undecided yet, it's an open design question
20:33 < kanzure> array of drops for first layer, then a second layer gets put down with the different reagents per target location, each target location can build different oligonucleotide molecule over time
20:33 < kanzure> single-spot resolution delivery of chemical reagents
20:34 < maaku> right ok, I think I understand now
20:34 < maaku> what was confusing me was the bit about drop surfaces not merging
20:34 < maaku> successive drops to the same pixel merge, correct? just not neighboring drops
20:35 < kanzure> during the initial synthesis of individual oligos, neighboring drops on the surface are not meant to merge
20:36 < maaku> so you're doing positional chemistry by selectively depositing only one molecule (+ non-reactive fluid) to each drop at a time, with (by design) a single low energy reaction at each step
20:36 < kanzure> however, each droplet, at the end of the reaction cycles etc., has a 100 bp oligonucleotide molecule (well, probably less than 100 bp; yield/error rate is driving concern here), and the goal is to combine the oligos into superlong oligo.
20:36 < kanzure> not one molecule, many molecules- it's just typical in-liquid-phase chemistry.
20:37 < kanzure> yes i should clarify that each drop houses many millions of individual growing molecules
20:37 < maaku> ah ok well that's a big difference
20:38 < justanotheruser> http://hammerproject.com/post/130804023369/iot-intro-sms-me-when-i-leave-my-garage-door-open
20:38 < justanotheruser> .title
20:38 < yoleaux> the Hammer Project - IoT Intro: SMS me when I leave my garage door open
20:38 < justanotheruser> TIL you can do open your garage door over the internet without using a blockchain in the middle
20:38 < kanzure> in most designs, these molecules are attached to a microparticle or microsphere ("solid support"), or to the surface below the drop. this way, when you wash the junk out (which is necessary after each additive reaction step), you don't lose your progress.
20:39 < maaku> ah interesting
20:40 < kanzure> heh my head is full of tornado/zermq/sockets at the moment, not dna synthesis details :-)
20:40 < kanzure> *zeromq
20:41 < maaku> heh well I'm thinking about planning engines and cpu microarchitectures
20:41 < maaku> but cool i think i have a much better understanding
20:42 < kanzure> does nasa have any fancy geometric constraint solvers?
20:42 < kanzure> not gce
20:42 < Josh|NH4H> Seems like a cool design
20:43 < kanzure> Josh|NH4H: we're going to build it once design gets better finalized and once we find someone to debug the machine once constructed (there's no way it will be operational on day one)
20:43 < kanzure> we can pay for stuff, but need to be prudent
20:44 < kanzure> this sort of technology can enable lots of genetic engineering stuff: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2014
20:45 < Josh|NH4H> Wow
20:45 < Josh|NH4H> What does debugging involve?
20:46 < kanzure> typical chemistry debugging
20:46 < kanzure> "why does this reaction not work? wtf"
20:46 < kanzure> "gosh looks like i need to tweak 10-15 different variables to get the yield above 0%"
20:47 < kanzure> "why is the solvent eating through the surface? this seems bad."
20:47 < Josh|NH4H> haha
20:47 < Josh|NH4H> Very interesting stuff, for sure
20:48 < kanzure> Jawmare: general discussion stuff above^
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21:01 < codo> hola
21:02 < codo> anyone here ??
21:04 < maaku> there's about 86 people here
21:05 < Josh|NH4H> Hey codo
21:09 < codo> Wanted to thank the person who wrote this transcripts and was wondering if he hangs around here. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2015/arvind-narayanan/
21:09 < codo> I'm a cyborg with a cochlear implant. And I rely on transcripts like this to get information from videos/interviews etc.
21:10 < codo> I wish people find ways to contribute more to transcripts of technology/sciency stuff like this one.
21:19 < Josh|NH4H> Off to bed for me
21:19 < maaku> codo: he has been known to hang out here
21:19 < maaku> Josh|NH4H: good night
21:19 < Josh|NH4H> Gnight cishumans
21:19 < Josh|NH4H> Night maaku
21:19 < codo> night
21:20 < Josh|NH4H> Night codo
21:20 < codo> if there are other transcripts like that please feel free to put online somewhere.
21:20 < codo> they help a lot
21:22 < maaku> codo: walk back the URL : http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/
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21:25 < codo> yea, I did :)
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22:40 < kanzure> codo: show me sufficiently good videos and more might be typed... video is often dumb idea, plaintext way better.
22:41 < codo> kanzure: ah you are here. I was about to email you to say thanks!
22:41 < codo> kanzure: are you comfortable with Computer Science related videos hmm ?
22:41 < kanzure> i am uncomfortable with all videos
22:41 < codo> kanzure: haha
22:41 < codo> kanzure: I was hoping that some of these videos paperswelove.org get transcribed.
22:42 < kanzure> oh gross, why are those videos wtf
22:43 < codo> Untill machine learning improves automatic transcription to human level accuracy, manual transcription is the way forward still I guess.
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22:46 < kanzure> agreed
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23:15 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDLM-dXP-KE
23:15 < yoleaux> Star Wars: The Blackened Mantle (The Prequels Rewritten / Recut) - YouTube
23:15 < kanzure> japanese yoda is hilarious
23:27 < kanzure> http://casemed.case.edu/ora/iacuc/policies/rodent_space_requirements.cfm
23:27 < kanzure> "Investigators should be aware that housing 5 mice per cage can be noncompliant with regulations. Mice heavier than 25 grams must have at least 15 square inches of floor space per mouse. Standard mouse shoeboxes used at the ARC provide 68 square inches of floor space. According to current PHS and AAALAC regulations this can accommodate 5 mice <25 grams, or 4 mice >25 grams."
23:28 < kanzure> http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/PDF/Policies/Animal%20Use%20Policies/policy_on_cage_density_requirements.pdf
23:34 < kanzure> randall munroe must be reading hplusroadmap logs http://xkcd.com/1594/
23:37 < poppingtonic> that is a good one
--- Log closed Mon Oct 26 00:00:03 2015