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01:40 < Emmel> Kanzure: hi (:
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02:34 < archels> ~
02:34 < archels> oops, ignore
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03:36 < justanotheruser> kanzure: what books do I need to read to catch up with all the DIYBIO guys
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05:00 < TMA> kanzure: Daniel Goleman's emotional intelligence claims so [reportedly, I will go ad fontes in the next few weeks to confirm or disprove this allegation]
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05:25 < kanzure> justanotheruser: molecular biology lab protocol books; molecular biology of the cell; maybe that weird osynthetic biology primer or the comicbook series.
05:26 < justanotheruser> something like this http://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Cloning-Laboratory-Manual-Set/dp/0879693096/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1447334773&sr=8-4&keywords=molecular+biology+lab+protocol+books
05:27 < poppingtonic> http://www.protocol-online.org/prot/Molecular_Biology/
05:28 < kanzure> justanotheruser: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/
05:28 < justanotheruser> thanks
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05:34 < kanzure> justanotheruser: have you visited your campus machine shop yet?
05:36 < justanotheruser> nah, as I mentioned they teach a class and I wasn't able to sign up for it
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07:03 < docl> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/magazine/the-crispr-quandary.html
07:03 < kanzure> if this is still about patent law i am going to roll my eyes
07:03 < kanzure> too late already mid-roll
07:06 < docl> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/16/the-gene-hackers
07:06 < Aurelius_Work2> kanzure : do you care about autism advocacy etc. at all?
07:08 < docl> http://www.nature.com/news/crispr-the-disruptor-1.17673
07:08 < kanzure> i wouldn't mind the oblitteration of autism speaks
07:08 < kanzure> and pro-autism advocacy seems like a good idea, unfortunately most people are trying to become less autistic.
07:09 < Aurelius_Work2> Slate, but Auerbach did a lot of work on this piece--
07:09 < Aurelius_Work2> www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2015/11/facilitated_communication_pseudoscience_harms_people_with_disabilities.html
07:09 < Aurelius_Work2> .title
07:09 < yoleaux> Facilitated communication pseudoscience harms people with disabilities.
07:09 < kanzure> is a brain-computer interface "facilitated communication"?
07:09 < Aurelius_Work2> no
07:09 < kanzure> who wrote this dictionary :P
07:10 < eudoxia> it's basically using people as ouija boards
07:10 < eudoxia> and somehow it's getting government money and being pushed into schools and all that crap
07:12 < kanzure> eh, there's something to be said for making the parents feel better
07:12 < kanzure> this reduces the amount of stress thrown at the teachers
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09:43 < kanzure> .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1511.00083
09:43 < yoleaux> [1511.00083] Why Neurons Have Thousands of Synapses, A Theory of Sequence Memory in Neocortex
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09:48 < JayDugger> Thought that abstract seemed familiar. I should've read the authors' names first.
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09:59 < kanzure> "Neocortical neurons have thousands of excitatory synapses. It is a mystery how neurons integrate the input from so many synapses and what kind of large-scale network behavior this enables. It has been previously proposed that non-linear properties of dendrites enable neurons to recognize multiple patterns. In this paper we extend this idea by showing that a neuron with several thousand synapses arranged along active dendrites can learn ...
09:59 < kanzure> ... to accurately and robustly recognize hundreds of unique patterns of cellular activity, even in the presence of large amounts of noise and pattern variation. We then propose a neuron model where some of the patterns recognized by a neuron lead to action potentials and define the classic receptive field of the neuron, whereas the majority of the patterns recognized by a neuron act as predictions by slightly depolarizing the neuron ...
09:59 < kanzure> ... without immediately generating an action potential. We then present a network model based on neurons with these properties and show that the network learns a robust model of time-based sequences. Given the similarity of excitatory neurons throughout the neocortex and the importance of sequence memory in inference and behavior, we propose that this form of sequence memory is a universal property of neocortical tissue. We further ...
09:59 < kanzure> ... propose that cellular layers in the neocortex implement variations of the same sequence memory algorithm to achieve different aspects of inference and behavior. The neuron and network models we introduce are robust over a wide range of parameters as long as the network uses a sparse distributed code of cellular activations. The sequence capacity of the network scales linearly with the number of synapses on each neuron. Thus neurons ...
10:00 < kanzure> ... need thousands of synapses to learn the many temporal patterns in sensory stimuli and motor sequences."
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13:38 < kanzure> hm
13:45 < kanzure> "Much of the research that has been done has been on the importance of increased bacteroidetes vs. firmicutes, the two most prevalent families of bacteria in the digestive tract. But almost all of the probiotics on the market don't contain any bacteroidetes. Most have lactobacillus (which is technically a firmicutes, but considered a "good firmicutes" I guess, and is used to make yoghurt) or bifidobacterium (like Align) which is in a ...
13:45 < kanzure> ... completely separate family (Actinobacteria)." http://www.generalbiotics.com/
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14:10 < kanzure> http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2015/01/20/results-2015-cad-survey/ "It looks like Solidworks is the winner overall (22% market share). The only open source software I see is FreeCAD (2%). Zooming in on the 'free' software, blender, inkscape and meshlab all make an appearance."
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14:10 < kanzure> strange that freecad > openscad on that survey?
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14:43 < kanzure> "The new startup trying to sell celebrity meat may or may not be serious, but now that they mention it it’s an obvious corollary of vat-grown meat technology and it’s sure to happen eventually. Weird.
14:43 < kanzure> "
14:54 < kanzure> anders finds out about the motor cortex brain implant speech dude: "This is not LEDs under the skin, but literal brain surgery."
14:54 < kanzure> but idolization of brain surgery is a little meh
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16:40 < jtimon> cyborgs and robots are going to fail! ideas for the win!
16:44 < kanzure> you mean like the roomba?
16:47 < chris_99> haha, thank goodness for stairs!
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17:08 < maaku> hi jtimon
17:09 < kanzure> maaku: he was complaining about nietzsche or something so i showed him some philosophy stuff :)
17:10 < maaku> jtimon is also of the AI bent, albeit with a preference for neural networks
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17:13 < nmz787_i> crystals found in a wine cork http://www.jkraft.net/red-wine-2.jpg
17:13 < nmz787_i> http://www.jkraft.net/red-wine-1.jpg
17:17 < Filosofem> nmz787_i, tartaric acid
17:17 < Filosofem> ?
17:17 < Filosofem> chiral resolution agent lol
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17:25 < jrayhawk> http://programs.pacificbiosciences.com/l/1652/2015-10-13/3fvlkr pacbio workshop in Palo Alto on Dec 2nd-4th
17:27 < jtimon> maaku: neural networks specifically trained with genetic algorithms: can produce something equivalent to any function, checked. with patience they can optimize anything, checked. what else you need?
17:28 < maaku> goals? planning? hierarchical structured memory?
17:28 < jtimon> well, for now engineers to decide inputs and outputs and maybe even nn topology
17:28 < maaku> agi is a bit more than just finding a nonlinear approximation to a function :)
17:29 < jtimon> goals should be inputs
17:32 < jtimon> that's why the robots won't rape us unless we tell them to (hey, I agree that nobody can predict the future, specially not niels bohr)
17:34 < jtimon> the robot evolves during its mission according to some predefined fitness function aka "the goals"
17:37 < jtimon> of course devices that save you the effort of deciding which channel you like more have been invented as well
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20:13  * quonk looks at the diyplus wiki
20:14 < quonk> some misleading stuff on there eh
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21:51 < Jawmare> https://i.imgur.com/cNlwVzJ.jpg
21:52 < Jawmare> quantum dots
21:52 < Jawmare> and paraflim not doing its job
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22:01 < fenn> kanzure you might be amused to learn that the general biotics guy hangs out in my living room occasionally, though since his name doesn't appear anywhere on the website i won't post it here
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22:47 < kanzure> .wik amdahl's law
22:47 < yoleaux> "Amdahl's law (or Amdahl's argument) is used to find the theoretical improvement in speed of the execution of a task with a fixed workload that can be expected of a system when the latter is improved. It is named after computer architect Gene Amdahl, and was presented at the AFIPS Spring Joint Computer Conference in 1967." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl%27s_law
22:51 < fenn> from the 1967 paper: "For over a decade prophets have voiced the contention that the organization of a single computer has reached its limits and that truly significant advances can be made only by interconnection of a multiplicity of computers in such a manner as to permit cooperative solution.
22:53 < fenn> "the effort expended on achieving high parallel processing rates is wasted unless it is accompanied by achievements in sequential processing rates of very nearly the same magnitude."
22:54 < fenn> the paper had no equations in it?
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22:58 < kanzure> "oral history collection interview with gene amdahl" http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2013/05/102702492-05-01-acc.pdf
23:02 < kanzure> ugh i need to brain dump mike darwin before he croaks
23:02 < fenn> lol
23:02 < fenn> is he old?
23:02 < kanzure> fucking ancient
23:02 < kanzure> .wik mike darwin
23:02 < yoleaux> "Michael G. ("Mike") Darwin, formerly known as Michael Federowicz, (born April 26, 1955) was the president of the cryonics organization Alcor Life Extension Foundation from 1983 to 1988, and Research Director until 1992." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Darwin
23:03 < fenn> born 1955 that's my parents' age
23:04 < fenn> "The last I heard, Mike lives in a cabin on an Indian reservation in Arizona and has conversations with himself about some ring."
23:05 < kanzure> on the other hand, if someone was to brain dump me using that format, i would miss approximately all of the good stuff.
23:06 < fenn> what, a single pdf file?
23:06 < kanzure> life history style narrative
23:07 < kanzure> biographical details and "important engineering things that we need to extract from you before you die" aren't necessarily related
23:07 < fenn> the computer history museum is pretty good a missing the important part of things
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23:08 < kanzure> cluckj: why do computer history museum braindump interviews suck so much?
23:08 < fenn> also visiting the physical museum they have approximately 1 computer running
23:09 < fenn> like, who the fuck cares what the physical computer looks like
23:09 < kanzure> "all the others just have a single piece of paper with the words 'Sorry, IT is understaffed' on 'em"
23:10 < kanzure> "well i was born on a corn field with my 'pa who had to work all day for a living, i remember it like yesteryear........"
23:10 < kanzure> "yes but what about the transhumanism?"
23:10 < kanzure> "the what now?"
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23:10 < fenn> that was from an anders sandberg interview right?
23:11 < kanzure> we are so screwed
23:13 < fenn> oh it was ralph merkle http://web.archive.org/web/20070311022139/http://www.itas.fzk.de/mahp/weber/merkle.htm
23:13 < fenn> (at the end)
23:15 < fenn> huh? "in the two days since Darwin spoke I've discovered that he is probably the most feared and definitely the most hated man in cryonics."
23:16 < fenn> so much hearsay
23:19 < kanzure> it's clear that we do not have good formats for doing braindumps
23:19 < kanzure> mike sorta compulsively braindumps everything, so things work out there, somebody just has to fucking listen and write everything down
23:21 < kanzure> but most people don't have a list of the twenty or thirty heuristics that they are supposed to tell you about from their work
23:23 < fenn> also they're usually terribly biased by the memory of what worked out or didn't, usually forgetting important things that didn't work out due to unrelated politics or whatever
23:25 < JayDugger> Fenn, please make a case for not deliberately forgetting "things that didn't work out due to unrelated politics or whatever."
23:26 < fenn> if you want to build a picture of someone's motivations and the series of trials they faced to get to where they are now, it helps to know about both the successes and failures
23:26 < JayDugger> I intend to do exactly that after I retire, not that my braindump would have much worth. Perhaps I've made a mistaken decision.
23:26 < fenn> why would you intentionally add a bias to history? it's bad enough already
23:26 < JayDugger> Agreed.
23:27 < kanzure> a lot of this is out-of-sight/out-of-mind
23:27 < JayDugger> I don't think including all of the bitter and hateful cynicism I carry would make history any better.
23:27 < fenn> it's far too common for biographers to paint a picture of the hero taking a single straightforward path from A to B
23:27 < JayDugger> Huh? I don't understand your comment, kanzure.
23:27 < kanzure> braindumps need to be a serialization of all the marginalized idealistic shit that you short-changed over the years
23:28 < fenn> looking over my logs occasionally i'm always amazed at the sheer quantity of stuff that happened that i had completely forgotten about, only a few years later
23:29 < kanzure> well most stuff is noise anyway, though
23:29 < fenn> often i appear to be going in circles
23:29 < kanzure> you probably are
23:29 < JayDugger> Oh, okay, that makes a little more sense. I remain unconvinced that such elisions need to ever get recorded. It is hard to find a signal in what looks like noise in hindsight.
23:30 < fenn> one man's noise is another's signal
23:30 < kanzure> there is an ambient background noise of daily crap
23:30 < JayDugger> Fenn...you could just re-read your logs on an ongoing basis.
23:31 < JayDugger> That's much easier said than done. I've no good method, and when I've done that, I found the repetition discouraging.
23:31 < kanzure> JayDugger: have you seen fenn's http://fennetic.net/sleep/
23:31 < fenn> it's difficult because most things take some research to figure out what it was
23:31 < JayDugger> Not lately.
23:31 < fenn> maybe my recording style is just too terse
23:32 < JayDugger> Have you thought about having your paper logs scanned?
23:33 < kanzure> does rain fall downward?
23:33 < JayDugger> Sorry, vague pronoun antecedent, I meant Fenn.
23:33 < fenn> i have photos of them which are high enough resolution to OCR if such a thing existed for handwriting
23:33 < JayDugger> Usually down, not always.
23:33 < JayDugger> Evernote does a poor-to-fair job with my neat printed handwriting.
23:34 < JayDugger> I've had little success getting good exports from Evernote, and so that probably doesn't help.
23:34 < kanzure> maybe a law of braindumps is can only be done by someone else from the same fields
23:35 < fenn> kanzure's law of braindumps
23:36 < fenn> any sufficiently advanced braindump is indistinguishable from jargon
23:36 < kanzure> at first i was thinking "only someone as smart or smarter" but then i decided against that because of how horrible life would be in that world
23:37 < JayDugger> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography#Biography
23:37 < JayDugger> Have you an example of a good brain dump?
23:37 < kanzure> hplusroadmap
23:38 < fenn> disagree
23:38 < kanzure> haters gonna hate
23:39 < kanzure> this was a short brain dump i did of madars virza http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/snarks/
23:40 < kanzure> although we only had 20 minutes
23:40 < fenn> REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED
23:41 < kanzure> i suspect purpose of corn field style braindumps is more like appeasement or validation of the person, have to convince them to talk by promising them their shitty life history is going to be immortalized or something
23:41 < kanzure> and engineering approach to dump is not taken
23:43 < kanzure> maybe bring up corn fields if you are gong to be talking about botany insight or something, but you aren't
23:44 < JayDugger> Thank you, brb--housework
23:44 < kanzure> perhaps better strategy is just give them a list of other fields of engineering and work and ask them to dump random shitty advice for each one :-)
23:45 < fenn> while i think prompting is necessary it should be guided by historical information/artifacts from the person's life
23:45 < fenn> random recall associations are hugely biased obviously
23:46 < fenn> i guess it depends on whether the goal is to create an accurate representation of what happened vs what experience the person has accumulated
23:46 < kanzure> random coworkers should submit time-sealed envelopes with "shit that bryan is going to forget about but that he should be telling you about eventulaly", then just take sum of all those sealed submissions
23:47 < JayDugger> Heh.
23:47 < kanzure> i have no idea what ralph merkle was doing with compilers at xerox in 80s
23:48 -!- quonk [~user@173.254.196.59.adsl.inet-telecom.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:48 < JayDugger> .wik Oral history preservation
23:48 < yoleaux> "Oral history preservation is the field that deals with the care and upkeep of oral history materials, whatever format they may be in. Oral history is a method of historical documentation, using interviews with living survivors of the time being investigated." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_history_preservation
23:49 < fenn> i get the impression the term "braindump" is more than just historical documentation, rather it involves an attempt to convey tacit and procedural practical knowledge that otherwise is poorly documented
23:50 < kanzure> yes
23:50 < kanzure> braindump can be stuff that never actually happened
23:52 < kanzure> technology replication costs have to be below social coordination costs as you grow number of people in group, otherwise you might as well just use assembly line of shakespeares at typewriters because costs grow differently
23:52 < kanzure> evidently i am falling asleep, see you potatoheads later
23:52 < JayDugger> Good night.
23:53 < fenn> 2359 net hplusirc amdahls-law mike-darwin general-biotics-microbiome, food granola 150g
--- Log closed Fri Nov 13 00:00:24 2015