--- Log opened Fri Dec 11 00:00:33 2015
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06:42 < kanzure> well, extracting memory isn't a bad outcome
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06:49 < kanzure> huh this sucks for cryonics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities
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07:09 < JayDugger> David Friedman had a video, from an Alcor conference, IIRC, on this very point.
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07:21 < kanzure> ray dillinger claims to have corresponded with satoshi http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2015-December/027480.html
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07:32 < JayDugger> Mr. Dillinger normally so paranoid? Seems justifiable, and consistent, but not necessarily true.
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07:43 < maaku> kanzure: Alcor has done extensive research on perpetuities
07:44 < kanzure> ah.
07:44 < maaku> there are certain jurisdictions in which an effectively perpetual cryonics trust can be setup
07:44 < maaku> then have a standard set of forms, i believe (it's on my list of things to do for the new year)
07:45 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3wcl8w/doesnt_gwern_have_some_explaining_to_do_regarding/
07:45 < maaku> nothing protects you from future laws being passedk of course
07:46 < kanzure> distance would help
07:47 < maaku> kanzure: can you give me reddit's IP address?
07:48 < kanzure> 198.41.208.143
07:49 < maaku> thanks
07:51 < maaku> gwern has stayed off reddit for two days...
07:53 < kanzure> maaku: so i went into lesswrong to tell them......
07:53 < maaku> oh gawd. link?
07:53 < kanzure> i mean the irc channel. no links.
07:54 < kanzure> the conversation was interesting, because a lot of them already hate me and prefer gwern because they think whether i'm an asshole determines whether i ever have anything worthwhile to say (they are morons)
07:54 < maaku> ah
07:54 < maaku> the irony is wonderful
07:54 < kanzure> their arguments included "lol i'm sure he had a good reason"
07:54 < kanzure> and "well, bill gates walk around without getting killed, so this shouldn't be too bad"
07:55 < kanzure> and "are you more qualified than wired.com to make that determination?"
07:55 < FourFire> damn, now I wish I still ideled in there just s I could have read the logs
07:56 < maaku> this is great practice problems for #lesswrong : "explain which logical fallacies are being committed here"
07:56 < FourFire> oh well, sunk costs...
07:56 < kanzure> and "you are just an asshole trying to cause drama" was also mentioned
07:56 < kanzure> (to which i replied with an expression of incredulity that i was the source of the drama vs, say, gwern being the actual causitive force here)
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07:57 < kanzure> "well at the end of the article they admit it might be a hoax!" was the stupidest one i think; no, you don't publish something that you are sure is a hoax, without labeling it a hoax. gah.
07:59 < kanzure> their response basically discredits them as much as gwern has discredited himself
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08:51 < nmz787_i> kanzure: do you know about F-droid (marketplace/appstore for FLOSS on Android)?
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09:04 < kanzure> i have heard of it.
09:05 < kanzure> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-Droid
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10:06 < kanzure> 10:06 < mrvn> kanzure: I would like it if patents would expire when everybody uses them without getting sued for some time. No sueing years later when the method has become popular.
10:06 < kanzure> 10:06 < kanzure> mrvn: so something like, once the patent is used by 20,000 people, the patent should become invalid anyway?
10:07 < kanzure> 10:07 < mrvn> kanzure: no. once 10 other companies do the same thing for a year and you didn't sue then it's to late
10:07 < kanzure> 10:07 < kanzure> mrvn: i think that might encourage everyone to constantly sue everyone :-)
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10:19 < archels> isn't that part of actual patent legislation in the USA? If you're aware of an infringement but you don't sue, you forego your patent.
10:20 < catern> i think we should shorten patent term lengths every year by the percentage that GDP grew that year
10:20 < catern> to account for the acceleration of growth
10:26 < kanzure> catern: oh you mean like, "it's important to put a cap on how much progress should be attributed to patents, because otherwise it could end up being too successful and have too many run-away effects". interesting notion.
10:30 < nmz787_i> .title http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/advancedtech/doodle/ref_HiK-MG/high-k.htm
10:30 < yoleaux> High-k and Metal Gate Transistor Research
10:30 < nmz787_i> < about 5 silicon dioxide atoms and gate leakage is problematic
10:31 < nmz787_i> thanks to quantum tunnelling
10:31 < xentrac> do you mean, like, two of silicon and three of oxygen?
10:36 < nmz787_i> hmm
10:37 < xentrac> archels: no, although there may be limitations on liability due to laches
10:37 < xentrac> there *is* something like that in *trademark* law, but not in patent law
10:38 < kanzure> http://priceonomics.com/the-first-quantified-brain/ "every Tuesday and Thursday, for a year and a half, Poldrack had his brain scanned in an MRI machine."
10:38 < kanzure> "Long-term neural and physiological phenotyping of a single human" http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151209/ncomms9885/full/ncomms9885.html
10:39 < kanzure> "Here, as a proof of concept to address this question, we present the MyConnectome project. An intensive phenome-wide assessment of a single human was performed over a period of 18 months, including functional and structural brain connectivity using magnetic resonance imaging, psychological function and physical health, gene expression and metabolomics. A reproducible analysis workflow is provided, along with open access to the data ...
10:39 < kanzure> ... and an online browser for results. We demonstrate dynamic changes in brain connectivity over the timescales of days to months, and relations between brain connectivity, gene expression and metabolites."
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10:39 < kanzure> http://myconnectome.org/wp/
10:40 < nmz787_i> " For instance, in MOSFET processes, thermal oxidation is never performed after the doping for the source and drain terminals is performed, because it would disturb the placement of the dopants."
10:40 < kanzure> "Even in the cases where we've done the most scans of a single brain, we're talking a few measurements separated by weeks, months or even years. As a result, we don't even know what's normal in terms of day-to-day variation. Russ's project won't tell us what's normal, because it's just one brain, but I think it'll give us a sense of what's possible. We'll see the day-to-day fluctuation, see what kind of variability there is."
10:40 < nmz787_i> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_oxidation
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10:40 < nmz787_i> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_dioxide#Crystalline_forms
10:40 < nmz787_i> not sure which matches to CVD or TEOS
10:43 < kanzure> http://results.myconnectome.org/
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10:44 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i guess i should reach out to dunbar at some point. bleh.
10:51 < nmz787_i> kanzure: yeah I used it recently to install this on some old phones https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=net.majorkernelpanic.spydroid
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12:22 < nmz787_i> whatever happened to paperbot, that lovable old creep?
12:22 < nmz787_i> I thought it was at least good enough for searching google using filetype:pdf for whatever you pasted to it
12:24 < chris_99> maybe someone could script it to use sci-hub?
12:24 < Aurelius_Work2> what happened to, uh, alonzo_tg?
12:24 < Aurelius_Work2> or whatever his name was
12:25 < nmz787_i> xentrac: https://bitbucket.org/fenics-project/fenics-book
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12:42 < kanzure> Aurelius_Work2: banned him.
12:42 < Aurelius_Work2> kanzure : he lived very near where I do now, but I never met up with him because his okcupid freaked me out
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12:44 < kanzure> eh? why wouldn't you use any of the other wonderful reasons to aovid him? if you really are the pro-computronium-is-better-than-universe person, he would absolutely murder you-- considering his anti-uploader sentiments.
12:46 < Aurelius_Work2> he was crazy
12:47 < eudoxia> Aurelius_Work2: his okcupid freaked you out too huh
12:49 < Aurelius_Work2> yeah. and it's not like any of my okc profiles are super normal
12:50 < chris_99> heh, you could A/B test them if you've got >1
12:50 < eudoxia> i feel rather bad for him but hey, can't help everyone
12:51 < Aurelius_Work2> chris_99 : it's split marketing--diff purposes rather than A/B testing
12:51 < kanzure> profile replicator would be needed for a/b split testing.
12:51 < kanzure> (is doable)
12:51 < Aurelius_Work2> yeah
12:52 < eudoxia> hmm i should get an okcupid
12:52 < kanzure> eudoxia: nah
12:52 < eudoxia> but there's probably like three users in this hellhole
12:52 < eudoxia> why not kanz
12:53 < Aurelius_Work2> I've seen one attractive woman in the montevideo area that was tolerable, iirc
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12:54 < eudoxia>  lmao why were you searching the montevideo area
12:54 < kanzure> eudoxia: male approach is significantly tremendously hindered on interwebs. becomes competition for attention against all the other males. that's a game that a lot of people can sink tremendous energy and time into.
12:54 < eudoxia> preparing the infrastructure in case you need to bail from the US and decide to crash in Uruguay?
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12:55 < kanzure> eudoxia: fine to have a profile if you just let it sit, but game is rigged to work differently.
12:55 < Aurelius_Work2> eudoxia : global walking for hot women
12:56 < kanzure> effort/outcome ratio is usually skewed online to be unfavorable to any sane person
12:56 < kanzure> well, males.
12:56 < eudoxia> kanzure: hmm, you're probably right. i should invest more time/energy into improving my website's CSS. my taste in fonts will probably be attractive to someone.
12:56 < Aurelius_Work2> I've had pretty good OKC outcomes
12:56 < eudoxia> alternatively i could try to wedge the tinder app into my phone, but i have literally only one app and there's no room left
12:57 < kanzure> Aurelius_Work2: yea but i said ratio though
12:57 < Aurelius_Work2> oh, sure
12:57 < Aurelius_Work2> there's ways to improve it
12:57 < Aurelius_Work2> but I def spent between 30-120m a day on OKCupid at points
12:57 < kanzure> i believe you. and ouch.
12:58 < eudoxia> it's probably fun answering all those questions
12:58 < kanzure> that takes considerably less time
12:58 < Aurelius_Work2> eh, mostly browsing
13:00 < Aurelius_Work2> that said, 'be attractive' and 'don't be unattractive' are def good rules
13:00 < Aurelius_Work2> what probably didn't help was I am also very very picky
13:07 < eudoxia> don't worry i'm already handsome, just gotta use my best mugshot https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B5e92F3IMAAtJdG.jpg:large
13:08 < Aurelius_Work2> oh lord
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13:16 < kanzure> "Antisocial behavior in online discussion communities" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1504.00680v1.pdf
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13:47 < kanzure> billion buck fund for ai stuff https://openai.com/blog/introducing-openai/
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14:39 < nmz787_i> TIL: "As an example, celery [21] is not a meaningful name. At first, it is not obvious that it deals with message queuing. But it is memorable, partly because it can be used to feed a RabbitMQ [22] server."    from:     https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0423/#pick-memorable-names
14:40 < nmz787_i> I always just though 'well celery is a stupid name'
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15:04 < kanzure> instead of picking memorable names, better to pick rederivable names
15:04 < kanzure> or independently derivable names
15:05 < kanzure> the most memorable stuff is the kind of stuff that doesn't necessarily require you to remember it
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16:10 < streety> is that how celery was named?
16:13 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=00053621 Bryan Bishop: add link about fungibility from zooko >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/bitcoin-adam3us-fungibility-privacy/
16:14 < nmz787_i> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~evanlezar/+junk/fenics-electromagnetics/files/head:/
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17:04 < xentrac> nmz787: thank you very much!  I had seen the fenics-book but I haven't started reading it yet
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19:14 < kanzure> was the thing about blowing up mars a thing from in here? the one about mining chunks of martian material, instead of having another gravity well.
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19:39 < docl> yep
19:41 < docl> http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-09.log
19:42 < maaku> kanzure: wouldn't that take more energy than doing it slowly via a space elevator?
19:42 < kanzure> docl: thanks
19:42 < kanzure> maaku: throwing around lots of energy could be easier than space elevators
19:43 < maaku> nmz787: I got celery when I first heard about it (was in a RabbitMQ context) and to this date remains one of my favorite names of packages :)
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19:44 < maaku> kanzure: well sure, easier, but long-term net loss of usable energy
19:50 < kanzure> i am busy converting #bitcoin to immortalists
19:59 < maaku> presently? that is worth joining #bitcoin for
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20:10 < kanzure> 20:09 < AdrianG> kanzure: you probably should try it on flies first, or something even smaller.
20:10 < kanzure> 20:10 < kanzure> AdrianG: shrug, i'm not worried about that, a variety of organisms can be done in parallel.
20:11 < kanzure> 20:10 < maaku> AdrianG: mice are easier to sort
20:12 < berndj> why is freezing even relevant to immortality?
20:12 < berndj> is it more than just a bridge from today-we-don't-know-how-to-cure-X to tomorrow-we-know-how-to-cure-X?
20:13 < kanzure> berndj: immortality is not just about being awake for the whole time
20:13 < kanzure> yes it could conceivably be used for bridging reasons
20:13 < berndj> henrietta lacks might be close to immortal but she isn't benefiting from it in any way i particularly want to emulate
20:14 < kanzure> huh? like, if you were cryopreserved, you wouldn't also want to have people playing around with your cell lines?
20:15 < justanotheruser> kanzure: The two parameters accomplish different things. With a lower fertility age, you will have more relevant mutations. Same with a large population. However if you have a large enough population to get a relevant mutation everyone one or two generations, then your bottleneck is the fertility age.
20:16 < kanzure> lower fertility age would have more relevant mutations? huh? you could control for mutation rate by somatic cell nuclear transfer and in vitro fertilization of mutated genomes.
20:16 < berndj> kanzure: i mean that henrietta lacks satisfies the "immortality" criterion in some sense, but it isn't a meaningful immortality. she isn't conscious to experience it
20:16 < justanotheruser> no, it wouldn't have more relevant mutations, you would be able to improve upon the mutations faster
20:16 < berndj> similarly, frozen people don't get to consciously experience their immortality
20:16 < kanzure> justanotheruser: dna sequencing, dna extraction, site-directed mutagenesis, and other forms of mutagenesis, are all important techniques that can be used to accelerate that sort of project
20:17 < kanzure> berndj: oh, well first of all i don't care about consciousness, i don't think i have consciousness so it's not something i need to account for
20:17 < justanotheruser> I assumed that was all automated and not a big amount of time spent
20:17 < kanzure> hm?
20:18 < justanotheruser> I'm talking about the fact that as soon as you have a set of optimal parents and want to create a population of their children, you don't get to see the results of that mutation for another 6 weeks.
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20:18 < kanzure> that's true, but you can be running lots of this at the same time so that every day you have results from a few weeks ago coming in. it's not something i would worry about. also, you could conceivably use gene therapy techniques if you got really annoyed about this.
20:19 < kanzure> anyway, population size helps because you can explore larger chunks of the evolutionary landscape at the same time
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20:20 < kanzure> 20:19 < alpalp> gmaxwell: just ran a projection based on 41/100000 death rate per year for accidents/injuries, median lifespan would be around 1700 years
20:23 < kanzure> justanotheruser: btw i have a few other ideas rattling around for applying same technique to the design of a nootropic and also for the "young blood rejuvenation" claims.
20:23 < justanotheruser> Have there been any large scale high-speed artificial selection experiments like this?
20:24 < justanotheruser> nootrpoic?
20:24 < kanzure> high-speed, not really... but large-scale, sorta kinda. depends on what you mean. flies yes, foxes sorta small-scale, rats sorta small-scale, uh what else...
20:24 < justanotheruser> are you saying you're going to slightly change chemical structure over and over?
20:25 < kanzure> microbial nootropic, one of the brain infecting microbes
20:25 < justanotheruser> I don't understand how artificial evolutino could apply to a chemical
20:25 < justanotheruser> oh
20:25 < kanzure> nootropics don't need to be chemical
20:25 < kanzure> brain infections already change behavior
20:25 < justanotheruser> that sounds incredibly difficult
20:26 < kanzure> mutate the microbe, infect a mouse, see how the mouse does in some mazes or something
20:26 < AdrianG> hoping to preserve viable organism by freezing is next to futile
20:26 < justanotheruser> ...
20:26 < kanzure> recover microbe from physical brain slices, analyze brain slices. or instead of recovering microbe, just record which batch it came from.
20:26 < AdrianG> to extract brain state and upload it is probably less futile
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20:27 < justanotheruser> Is microbial infection somehow supposed to gradually get better at helping the mouse?
20:27 < AdrianG> too many damaged cells will overload the immune system.
20:27 < kanzure> you can also inject neuron growth factors into the microbe's genome... upregulate expression of BDNF or something.
20:27 < Diablo-D3> Hey, its a channel!
20:27 < kanzure> justanotheruser: well, you would first start selecting for neutral behavior (no effect) or "bizarre" behavior but not necessarily the harmful stuff. but yea.
20:28 < kanzure> AdrianG: cells can heal themselves.... to some extent.
20:28 < AdrianG> kanzure: yes, but im assuming if you have cells damaged enough that they need to be cleared. the organism will fail.
20:29 < kanzure> AdrianG: indeed. i would expect the recovery process to take some time and lots of energy and nutrition.
20:29 < AdrianG> its a very difficult thing to do, if you actually intend to preserve an entire warm blooded organism cryonically.
20:29 < kanzure> AdrianG: but you can also select for fast healing :)
20:29 < kanzure> yes i agree it's difficult
20:29 < AdrianG> kanzure: whats the end goal?
20:29 < kanzure> AdrianG: cryopreservation and cryoresuscitation
20:29 < AdrianG> figure out how to freeze humans so we can fly to alpha centauri or something?
20:29 < kanzure> alpha centauri is robots-only
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20:30 < justanotheruser> I would be surpised to find that there are more than 1/1,000,000,000,000 possible microbes that do more good than damage
20:30 < AdrianG> kanzure: if i were you, i would look into fungi
20:30 < kanzure> justanotheruser: 80% of human population is infected by toxoplasma gondii, brain infecting microbes
20:30 < justanotheruser> I'm certainly not saying that infection is hard
20:31 < AdrianG> kanzure: sero positive maybe.
20:31 < kanzure> justanotheruser: neuro-relevant growth factor expression is sort of "trivial" in modern biology, compared to these other engineering challenges.
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20:31 < AdrianG> no way 80% of humans have active tox gondii infections.
20:31 < kanzure> depends on what you mean by active. does the cyst phase count as active?
20:31 < samO__> interesting topic kanzure , so i've decided to lurk here a bit
20:31 < AdrianG> kanzure: of course not.
20:31 < kanzure> AdrianG: cyst phase also impacts behavior
20:32 < AdrianG> kanzure: 30-50% thats sero-positive i think. i.e. having had exposure to it, and developed antibodies
20:33 < justanotheruser> I imagine you would have more luck breeding mice to fix stereos
20:34 < kanzure> you mean like using the mouse as a capacitor?
20:34 < kanzure> i suppose, but why would that be interesting?
20:34 < AdrianG> lol
20:34 < justanotheruser> what else will you do with your mouse genocide?
20:34 < justanotheruser> sell radios on the side
20:34 < kanzure> look just let me lash out at disney on my own terms, alright?
20:35 < AdrianG> kanzure: pregnant women are routinely screened and treated for tox gondii
20:35 < AdrianG> btw
20:35 < kanzure> not in all societies. not sure what your point is...
20:36 < AdrianG> kanzure: over-estimation of how common it is.
20:36 < Diablo-D3> [11:30:25] <kanzure> justanotheruser: 80% of human population is infected by toxoplasma gondii, brain infecting microbes
20:36 < Diablo-D3> so what IS the treatment for that
20:37 < AdrianG> antifungals probably
20:37 < justanotheruser> hmm, well if kanzure is planning on fighting the infection with this artificially bred microbe and labelling it a nootropic, I could see that working
20:37 < AdrianG> or something
20:37 < AdrianG> justanotheruser: lol
20:38 < justanotheruser> I'm not sure about a positive change though
20:38 < kanzure> yea protein expression is a myth
20:38 < maaku> Diablo-D3: learn how to hybridize toxoplasma with wireless comms, hormone and drug delivery and remote command and control
20:38 < justanotheruser> but hey, maybe you'll stumble across a microbe that synthesizes adderall
20:38 < maaku> oh wait did I say that outloud?
20:38 < AdrianG> maaku: lol
20:39 < kanzure> justanotheruser: idea is to select the brain-compatible microbes that least kill the whole brain. obviously, don't use brain-eating microbes as nootropic. duh?
20:40 < AdrianG> why are you infecting them with microbes first of all
20:40 < Diablo-D3> [11:37:35] <AdrianG> antifungals probably
20:40 < Diablo-D3> why?
20:40 < Diablo-D3> its not a fungus
20:41 < AdrianG> Diablo-D3: there are some drugs that are active against fungi, protozoan, etc
20:41 < Diablo-D3> ahh
20:41 < AdrianG> i guess its incorrect to call them antifungals
20:41 < AdrianG> i couldnt recall the exact term
20:41 < kanzure> AdrianG: microbial chasis is more evolvable than some random small molecule. also, you can insert protein expression for various human-specific neural-specific genes.
20:41 < AdrianG> same drugs they would give you for malaria. etc
20:41 < AdrianG> methylene blue, for example, idk if it works against tox gondii
20:42 < AdrianG> methylene blue is a decent antifungal, but can also be used against protozoans.
20:43 < AdrianG> i think it has some antibacterial action as well, lots of aniline dyes do. ive personally used brilliant green on minor wounds.
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20:46 < Diablo-D3> I cant remember, why is methylene blue being used as a nootropic
20:47 < AdrianG> i dont think its a noootropic.
20:48 < Diablo-D3> It surprisingly is
20:48 < AdrianG> the effect people feel is probably due to it being a weak reversible MAO?I.
20:48 < Diablo-D3> apparently it increases ATP production
20:49 < Diablo-D3> ahh here we go
20:49 < Diablo-D3> http://selfhacked.com/2013/08/25/methylene-blue-the-cheapest-cognitive-enhancer/
20:49 < justanotheruser> why don't you do something useful, like train your microbes to mine bitcoins
20:49 < Diablo-D3> justanotheruser: meh, I already wrote one bitcoin miner
20:49 < Diablo-D3> let someone else do it
20:49 < justanotheruser> I'm talking to the guy training microbes to help humans get smarter
20:50 < Diablo-D3> justanotheruser: why not have them mass produce DHA and EPA
20:50 < Diablo-D3> and coq10
20:50 < Diablo-D3> and coqh
20:50 < justanotheruser> because then we'd probably just have a bunch of unstructured brain goo
20:51 < AdrianG> Diablo-D3: MB is stupid.
20:51 < AdrianG> i would just use something else if you really wanted a nootropic.
20:52 < kanzure> an actual nootropic should assist its user in designing another (or a better) nootropic in some substantial way.
20:52 < AdrianG> funny how nobody considers amphetamines a nootropic.
20:53 < AdrianG> nicotine and amphetamines are probably most useful, and have been for a century, nicotine for far longer.
20:53 < Diablo-D3> you'd probably think Im weird for what I take
20:53 < kanzure> eh my results with amphetamine are outlandish and i'm an outlier, so i can't really go around telling people to do the same
20:53 < AdrianG> kanzure: you respond well?
20:53 < kanzure> extremely well
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20:54 < AdrianG> how long can you sustain the good response for?
20:54 < kanzure> all day
20:54 < AdrianG> i mean, a full year with no breaks?
20:54 < AdrianG> a decade, etc?
20:54 < kanzure> more than 10 years so far
20:54 < AdrianG> oic.
20:54 < AdrianG> good for you, i guess.
20:55 < kanzure> not helpful since results do not seem to be the same in others
20:55 < AdrianG> its a U shaped response.
20:55 < justanotheruser> How are you an outlier?
20:55 < AdrianG> its the same with all drugs, not everyone benefits equally.
20:55 < justanotheruser> Doesn't ADHD medication generally do well in treating ADHD?
20:55 < AdrianG> kanzure: you had an adhd dx?
20:56 < AdrianG> justanotheruser: adhd is an umbrella terms, thats actually quite meaningless.
20:56 < AdrianG> you could have ADHD due to a traumatic brain injury, because of poor blood circulation, etc, etc,, or even depression.
20:57 < AdrianG> i dont know why it was renamed from minimal brain dysfunction, was a much more descriptive term.
20:57 < justanotheruser> yeah, but what matters generally is problems with dopamine transmission
20:57 < justanotheruser> which amphetamines usually solve
20:57 < AdrianG> justanotheruser: absolutely wrong
20:57 < kanzure> "omg it's the dopamine guyz" is bad neuroscience
20:58 < AdrianG> amphetamines seem to activate some sort of stress response, and allow you to dip into reserves.
20:58 < kanzure> justanotheruser: i suspect part of it is that with adhd you develop ways to cope with inattention or tracking a million things at once, so on adderall this ability gets put to better use.
20:58 < AdrianG> dopamine is just a part of the entire picture.
20:58 < justanotheruser> kanzure: too vague, too wrong?
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20:59 < AdrianG> justanotheruser: for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trace_amine-associated_receptor
20:59 < AdrianG> cerebral perfusion is also seriously increased by stimulants.
21:00 < AdrianG> etc etc
21:00 < justanotheruser> And eating salt
21:01 < AdrianG> lolwat
21:01 < justanotheruser> you aren't aware?
21:01 < AdrianG> you crave salt on adderall?
21:01 < justanotheruser> lol
21:01 < justanotheruser> thats a funny interpretation of what I wrote
21:01 < justanotheruser> I was referring to cerebral perfusion being increased by salt
21:01 < justanotheruser> not eating salt being increased by stimulants
21:02 < justanotheruser> anyways, the point is that too much of anything can be harmful, generic other advice here
21:05 < AdrianG> A recent straw poll at the 10th Congress of the International Association of Biomedical Gerontology revealed that the majority of the participants thought it either probable or “not improbable” that comprehensive functional rejuvenation of middle-aged mice would be possible within 10-20 years (de Grey, A. (2004),
21:06 < AdrianG> well, its been 10 years and nothing happens. mice still die.
21:14 < Diablo-D3> so
21:15 < Diablo-D3> who wants to discuss what I've been taking
21:38 < nmz787_i> i bet trace amines will be seen as nootropics sooner or later
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22:27 < kanzure> some poorly formed anti-yudkowsky stuff https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10716238 (i have been working on a strong anti-yudkowsky for a few years and it is ugh)
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22:29 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: its not even worth being anti-yudkowsky
22:31 < Diablo-D3> I mean, we keep him around for shit like hpmor
22:32 < kanzure> the purpose of both hpmor and lesswrong was supposedly to generate more transhumanists, but i ain't seeing any results 'cept a bunch of pony fanfic and a bunch of messes for me to clean up. nope.
22:32 < Diablo-D3> well
22:32 < Diablo-D3> there is no such thing as transhumanists imo
22:33 < kanzure> Diablo-D3: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transhumanism
22:33 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: Im aware of what it means
22:33 < kanzure> are you? this definition is quite unusual.
22:33 < Diablo-D3> then its probably a rather incorrect definition
22:34 < kanzure> based on available evidence, i think it's more likely that everyone else is wrong :-)
22:35 < Diablo-D3> transhumanism, largely, is a bullshit term that has no actual meaning
22:35 < Diablo-D3> like "the cloud"
22:36 < Diablo-D3> transhumanism cannot exist because humanity is inclusive, not exclusive
22:36 < docl> marketing
22:36 < Diablo-D3> all "post-humans" are still humans.
22:36 < kanzure> Diablo-D3: if words have no meaning to you, then get the hell out. (i'm serious; we don't tolerate meaninglessness in here)
22:36 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: uh, this is what Ive been telling people for years
22:36 < Diablo-D3> for some reason they dont go away.
22:37 < kanzure> re: anti-yudkowsky; "he is not in the habit of carefully exploring alternative views to his own (instead he ridicules them without attempting to understand them); he seems to write as if both his deductions and assumptions are obvious rather than question them; he almost never tackles more current actual philosophical ideas (rather than occasionally paint them in an "obviously" ridiculous light by completely misunderstanding them); ...
22:37 < kanzure> ... most importantly, he seems to present a definitive answer after definitive answer rather than seriously and systematically explore questions. That is not to say that I don't occasionally agree with his conclusions, but his process lacks the originality and constant self-doubt that makes philosophy so entertaining and interesting. Instead, it offers dismissal or certainty -- stuff that may make religion or blog posts entertaining. ...
22:37 < kanzure> ... But that's not philosophy."
22:37 < kanzure> "The best defense of Singulitarianism is the "but what if you're wrong" kind of betting. Because their imagined doom scenario is so extremely unimaginably bad, they argue that they can get away with little proof, since multiplying the huge disaster with a little probability still gives a large expected risk. They like to say "shut up and multiply" as a slogan for this, i.e. multiply probability and outcome to get the expectation. He ...
22:37 < kanzure> ... lays the groundwork and path for this such that if you gradually get into his system, he can take you in the woods without you noticing. It's no less than a panic-inducing mind virus."
22:38 < Diablo-D3> Heh
22:38 < Diablo-D3> I wonder why the myth of the Singularity ever took off
22:38 < kanzure> i have recently taken to instead saying "well impossibly-effective ai that can destroy the universe no matter what times infinity, is simply not something that could reasonably be in anyone's threat model by definition"
22:38 < kanzure> whoops i don't mean impossibly-effective
22:38 < kanzure> *extremely-effective
22:38 < Diablo-D3> Well heres another problem, kanzure
22:38 < Diablo-D3> have we for certain proved time travel doesnt exist?
22:39 < kanzure> i'm also still surprised that singinst is not a militant activist group to go blow up ai research labs
22:39 < kanzure> Diablo-D3: huh? we know that forward time travel exists. what are you talking about?
22:39 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: the normal kind.
22:39 < kanzure> which one is that?
22:39 < Diablo-D3> backwards.
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22:41 < kanzure> well, i did see one theory from lee smolin about a way to do "backwardS" time travel, but it wouldn't really be backwards, it would just be setting up initial conditions to be slightly different. and of course this was all extremely speculative and useless.
22:41 < Diablo-D3> well what Im saying is
22:41 < kanzure> *"backwards"
22:41 < Diablo-D3> if theres even a tiny teeny almost impossible chance
22:41 < Diablo-D3> that it works
22:41 < Diablo-D3> and the future is a bad AI future
22:41 < kanzure> i don't care
22:41 < Diablo-D3> it would have already traveled back in time to establish itself at an earlier period.
22:42 < kanzure> that's not necessarily true; you can be really clever and still not explore the entire cognitive state space. there is way more cognitive state space than could ever be explored by available energy in the universe.
22:43 < Diablo-D3> I dunno, I'm just trying to figure out why a bad AI future is so bad
22:45 < Diablo-D3> I mean, lets say we go and do that
22:45 < kanzure> i think the worst outcome would be an unstable ai that replaces the galaxy with computronium, and then crashes. that would be unfortunate. would be better to have something that doesn't die so soon after replacing biological life with computronium.
22:45 < Diablo-D3> Yeah
22:45 < Diablo-D3> I mean if we fuck up
22:45 < Diablo-D3> then we fuck up
22:46 < kanzure> i am not particularly concerned about the replacement part. it makes sense that there should be some level of capability/ability where biological matter gets replaced with some other more useful arrangement of atoms.
22:46 < Diablo-D3> yeah but
22:46 < Diablo-D3> why are we even differing the two
22:47 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: like the way I see it is
22:47 < Diablo-D3> whatever "replaces" biological life
22:47 < Diablo-D3> if that is the kind of future we get
22:48 < Diablo-D3> is going to be very unlike anything we've ever seen before
22:48 < Diablo-D3> I'm not convinced the future will be dominated by non-biological life
22:48 < kanzure> i was using "replacement" as short-hand for "reallocated for other purposes unrelated to you". i am not talking about non-biological life.
22:48 < Diablo-D3> ahh
22:48 < Diablo-D3> Still, some people think thats a possible future
22:48 < Diablo-D3> I'm not convinced it works
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22:50 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: I dunno
22:50 < Diablo-D3> I've followed a lot of this stuff for awhile
22:50 < Diablo-D3> and I think most of what people think is just full of shit
22:51 < Diablo-D3> the future is not going to be anywhere as near as cool or awesome or whatever as most people think
22:52 < Diablo-D3> its going to be boring
22:53 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: like, even computronium
22:53 < Diablo-D3> whats the chances of that ever actually existing in the future
22:53 < docl> Diablo-D3: any thoughts on disassembling planets using self replicating robots, and that sort of thing
22:53 < Diablo-D3> docl: unlikely
22:54 < Diablo-D3> it just sounds too cool.
22:54 < docl> lol
22:56 < Diablo-D3> Seriously, I have a rule
22:56 < Diablo-D3> if it sounds cool, it'll probably never happen
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22:56 < Diablo-D3> and if it does happen, it was by complete accident
22:57 < docl> I wonder if there's a specific neurological cause of people not accepting ideas that are too cool? maybe it's superstimulus fatigue or somthing like that.
22:57 < Diablo-D3> maybe.
22:57 < Diablo-D3> Like, wheres my flying cars
22:57 < Diablo-D3> or useful AI
22:57 < Diablo-D3> or the end of wars
22:57 < Diablo-D3> or a mars colony
22:58 < Diablo-D3> or the cure for simple things like cancer
22:58 < Diablo-D3> or the US transitioning to a post-socialist system that values personal growth over wealth
22:58 < Diablo-D3> or me personally ever getting fast internet
22:59 < kanzure> have you tried moving
22:59 < Diablo-D3> kanzure: costs money
23:00 < docl> see all that stuff seems less likely than disassembling a planet with self replicating robots. at least, until after you disassemble planets and make stupendously powerful computers with them and brute-force the problems. gotta put the horse before the cart to get anything done.
23:00 < Diablo-D3> docl: or hell
23:00 < Diablo-D3> jupiter brains
23:00 < docl> yeah
23:00 < Diablo-D3> whats the chances of THAT happening
23:01 < docl> start with one (1) space-based replicator. it'll happen.
23:04 < docl> doesn't even have to be a nano replicator. a humongous clanker works fine, although you want a year or less for the replication time ideally.
23:05 < Diablo-D3> dear god
23:05 < Diablo-D3> imagine if it tries to replicate in winter
23:05 < Diablo-D3> it'll _never_ get done
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23:09 < AdrianG> whats fast internet?
23:09 < AdrianG> 1gbit?
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 12 00:00:34 2015