--- Log opened Mon Dec 14 00:00:36 2015
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00:41 < kanzure> hmph
00:42 < erasmus> they were all way off topic tonight kanzure
00:42 < erasmus> I have no idea how that happened.
00:43 < erasmus> this shit never happens in ##Neurofeedback
00:43 < ebowden> What happens in ##Neurofeedback?
00:44 < erasmus> mostly offtopic stuff
00:44 < ebowden> Why?
00:45 < ebowden> Well, I guess that's the case for a lot of chans.
00:45 < erasmus> cause most ppl cannot afford the hardware or software to train
00:45 < ebowden> So it makes sense.
00:45 < erasmus> but that is changing fast
00:46 < erasmus> openbci will have aboard out for $99
00:46 < ebowden> Neat.
00:46 < erasmus> which will work with bioera
00:46 < erasmus> and dry sensors are becoming affordable
00:47 < ebowden> I wonder if the effect of neurofeedback would be enhanced with drugs like 7,8-dihydroxyflavone.
00:47 < erasmus>  https://github.com/OpenBCI/Ultracortex/tree/master/Mark_3
00:47 < erasmus> I would just like to get off stims personally
00:49 < erasmus> I'm looking forward to training w/o pastes and gels
01:14 < ebowden> 7,8-dihydroxyflavone is a TrkB agonist, I've not heard of it being a stim.
01:29 < erasmus> I'll stick with amfonelic acid thx
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01:33 < ebowden> wtf
01:34 < ebowden> That's a DRI 150% the potency of dextroamphetamine, it has a massive half life and horrid withdrawal.
01:35 < ebowden> Why on earth would you think that'd be a good idea, yet the neurogenesis enhancing flavonoid is horrible.
01:46 < FourFire> erasmus, I hope they make their 160k stretch goal
01:46 < FourFire> want to experiment with tDCS, but equipment for it is too expensive for trivial hacking
01:50 < rhaps0dy> erasmus: lol
01:50 < rhaps0dy> are you an european exchange programme?
01:55 < ebowden> *horrible?
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02:04 < FourFire> invited user Alycius to this channel.
02:05 < Alcyius> Hello
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02:13 < FourFire> Greetings
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02:41 < fenn> ug so much backlog
02:42 < fenn> ebowden: what were the BDNF drugs you were taking that you believe reduced your need for sleep?
02:44 < ebowden> My need, or need in general?
02:48 < ebowden> Well, it was those and the neurofeedback. Maybe.
02:48 < ebowden> Maybe it was the placebo effect.
02:48 < ebowden> Maybe the drugs only upregulate BDNF in animal models.
02:51 < fenn> ok but what was it
02:54 < ebowden> Berberine, and the much pissier curcumin, it's oral bioavailability enhanced with piperine.
02:55 < ebowden> *its oral
02:56 < fenn> hum ok i don't think curcumin altered my sleep at all
02:57 < fenn> what sort of neurofeedback did you do?
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02:58 < ebowden> Something for concentrating on small objects, I think.
02:58 < ebowden> Fenn, because very little of it gets in your bloodstream.
03:00 < fenn> i used to take piperine but then i decided i would rather have functioning enzymes
03:01 < ebowden> You would still have functioning enzymes, just ever so slightly less of them.
03:02 < fenn> i thought enzyme inactivation (cyp3a4?) was the mechanism by which it increased curcumin bioavailability
03:03 < ebowden> I've heard multiple mechanisms proposed.
03:03 < fenn> a 1999 patent says the mechanism is unknown
03:04 < fenn> piperine may enhance bioavailability of curcumin by 2000% in humans (which is a 20-fold increase, as 100% is just normal absorption),[18] most likely due to inhibition of glucuronidation by the enzyme UDP-glucuronosyltransferase in the liver and small intestine.
03:05 < fenn> Piperine has shown "anti-depression like activity" and cognitive-enhancing effects in rats.
03:06 < ebowden> Not sure if any of the mechanisms proposed have been tested even as of now, say, a cyp3a4 knockout generated and the bioavailability enhancing effects compared between that and wild type.
03:07 < fenn> 5-20 mg/kg for the rat depression study, seems like a very high dose
03:08 < fenn> typical capsules are 10mg so i'd need to take like 50 capsules
03:08 < ebowden> Yup. I just had it for enhancing oral bioavailability.
03:08 < ebowden> Not that.
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03:09 < ebowden> +seen gaydude
03:09 < fenn> apparently there is some formula with some cubic term in it, for scaling up rat doses to human doses
03:10 < ebowden> Oh, derp, wrong chan.
03:10 < ebowden> I just use the FDA conversion factor.
03:10 < fenn> "FDA guideline provide conversion of animal dose to human dose on the basis of body surface area."
03:10 < fenn> who is gaydude?
03:11 < ebowden> I have just as little idea as you.
03:13 < Alcyius> I'd assume a gay male
03:13 < gaydude> mmmm, yes ^^, hello
03:14 < gaydude> i dont know any of you either ...
03:14 < ebowden> He asked me, so I replied.
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03:15 < fenn> i'd assume a troll from reddit
03:17 < gaydude> hahahah, no ... , why you think that?
03:18 < fenn> because you first joined at exactly the same time as atomical
03:18 < fenn> but you haven't said anything of substance
03:19 < gaydude> mmmmmmmm
03:19 < gaydude> i dont tend to speak, just watch
03:24 < ebowden> I mostly think about ears.
03:25 < ebowden> www.atomicpetportraits.com/the-worlds-longest-ears
03:27 < jrayhawk> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21592990 iiiiinteresting
03:29 < jrayhawk> that would explain more of the anti-candidiasis effects of goldenseal
03:30 < ebowden> I take berberine, not sure why I'd take that impure herbal stuff.
03:30 < fenn> lol
03:30 < fenn> can't we all just get along
03:31 < ebowden> I'm perfectly calm.
03:31 < Alcyius> Can't we get irrationally angry at each other /s
03:31 < Alcyius> On a serious note, I do have a question
03:32 < fenn> a lot of people on both sides seem to think herbal medicine and pharmaceutical medicine are mutually exclusive
03:32 < fenn> but i think the science developed to study herbal medicines are what led to pharmaceutical medicine
03:32 < Alcyius> I'm not as knowledgeable about this stuff as I'd like to be, so as an aspiring computer scientist, what stuff would you guys recommend I start looking into in terms of advancing transhumanism
03:32 < jrayhawk> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/proposals/
03:33 < fenn> alcyius it depends what you mean by transhumanism
03:33 < Alcyius> fenn, I'd agree with you there. My problem is that a lot of people think that herbal medicine is better than modern medicine, and reject any evidence that shows that their favored herbal remedies don't work
03:33 < fenn> step 1) define the problem. step 2) solve the problem.
03:34 < Alcyius> Fair enough
03:34 < fenn> in general i recommend studying technical topics rather than getting lost in identity philosophy
03:34 < Alcyius> Heh
03:34 < Alcyius> One of my world civ professors started getting me in those philosophical conversations
03:35 < Alcyius> I find them a good diversion
03:35 < Alcyius> Plus he buys coffee for me and sometimes pizza so
03:35 < fenn> studying philosophy gives you ammunition to win cocktail party arguments, but if you still die at the end is it worth it?
03:36 < ebowden> Alcyius, he may want to have sex with you.
03:36 < ebowden> I take berberine because it was as effective as metformin in a phase 3 clinical trial for type 2 diabetes, I don't care that it's from plants.
03:36 < Alcyius> fenn, I treat it more as a mental exercise than anything else
03:36 < Alcyius> ebowden, he's married, and I'm not the only one there
03:37 < gaydude> mmm, but dont opose if it goes further i think...  hehe
03:37 < fenn> mental exercises have been shown not to increase fluid intelligence (except perhaps n-back but there's only one paper verifying that and others are having trouble replicating results)
03:37 < jrayhawk> (similarly, http://www.nature.com/labinvest/journal/v92/n7/abs/labinvest201275a.html )
03:37 < ebowden> Alcyius, doesn't exclude the possibility.
03:37 < Alcyius> Fair enough, but he's not my type
03:37 < ebowden> Is he tall?
03:38 < Alcyius> Yes
03:38 < Alcyius> Why?
03:38 < ebowden> How tall?
03:38 < ebowden> I am very gay.
03:38 < Alcyius> taller than me, but only slightly and probably only cuz I use a cane
03:38 < Alcyius> He's also in his late 60s
03:38 < Alcyius> He could be my grandpa
03:38 < ebowden> They're gentler.
03:38 < gaydude> lol
03:38 < Alcyius> *sigh*
03:38 < Alcyius> That does remind me though
03:39 < Alcyius> Has anyone written anything about intersections of transhumanism and hedonism?
03:39 < ebowden> So, 6'1'? 6'3'?
03:39 < Alcyius> probably 6'1"
03:39 < fenn> david pearce wrote a lot of stuff about abolishing suffering and increasing happiness...
03:39 < gaydude> going back to your question, i also think that you should be reading more technical details
03:39 < Alcyius> Yeah probably
03:39 < Alcyius> I need to deal with my depression before I can effectively do that enough though
03:40 < gaydude> u.u
03:40 < fenn> Alcyius: http://hedweb.com
03:41 < Alcyius> Also, while philosophical discussions might not increase intelligence or be effective as a direct means to an end, it does give me insight on how to better defend my position towards laypeople
03:41 < gaydude> mmm, i use to imagine intersections of transhumanism and hedonism when not feeling "ok"
03:41 < ebowden> Alcyius, shame. I like people to be taller than me, but sadly am 6'.
03:42 < Alcyius> I honestly prefer short and I'm kinda sad that I'm 5'11"
03:42 < ebowden> gaydude, are you a top?
03:42 < fenn> alcyius the best thing you could do at the moment is go work for some silicon valley startup and make tons of cash and then use it to fund scientists
03:42 < Alcyius> Course, given the ability to modify my body as I please, I'd end up a lot different than I am currently
03:42 < gaydude> ebowden: i have the same problem, and im 6´ to
03:42 < Alcyius> fenn, I mean, obviously
03:42 < fenn> is that obvious?
03:42 < gaydude> heheheheh no, you?
03:42 < Alcyius> Yeah kinda
03:42 < Alcyius> Tbh, that is the current goal
03:43 < ebowden> Bottom.
03:43 < Alcyius> Make a lot of money, invest it to reach FI/RE, then pursue research at a university/make donations for scientists/lobby in favor of transhumanist causes
03:43 < gaydude> almost ..
03:43 < fenn> also by "scientists" i am definitely definitely not referring to any "AI safety" bullshit
03:44 < fenn> what is FI/RE?
03:44 < Alcyius> Financial Independence/Retire Early
03:44 < Alcyius> www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence
03:44 < ebowden> gaydude, what do you mean by "almost"?
03:45 < gaydude> mmmm, not sure
03:47 < gaydude> Alcyius, whats the first modification you want?
03:48 < Alcyius> Tough call
03:48 < Alcyius> I'd really like eyes
03:48 < Alcyius> But, on the other hand, I'm not a big fan of the sex layout of my current body
03:48 < Alcyius> I mean, I don't mind, but it could be more enjoyable
03:48 < Alcyius> Does a vasectomy count as a modification?
03:49 < Alcyius> (To be perfectly honest, I'm looking at an RFID implant currently)
03:49 < fenn> why do you want an RFID implant?
03:49 < Alcyius> fenn, convenience and personal intereste
03:49 < fenn> why not just get an RFID ring?
03:50 < fenn> or bracelet or whatever
03:50 < Alcyius> Because I lose jewelry and such with incredible frequency
03:50 < Alcyius> Especially my glasses
03:50 < Alcyius> can't lose an RFID implant
03:51 < gaydude> i also want a RFID
03:51 < fenn> it turns out fitbit can be used to do bluetooth identification i.e. unlocking an android phone
03:51 < gaydude> mmmmm, you have to start somewhere
03:51 < Alcyius> Interesting
03:51 < Alcyius> I'm also interested in a magnet implant
03:52 < fenn> it clips on with a metal spring, i keep it on my pocket next to my pocket knife
03:52 < Alcyius> But my current plans for modifying my body are a tattoo, an RFID implant, and a vasectomy, not necessarily in that order
03:52 < gaydude> about magnets, cant they go out in strong magnetic fields? xD
03:53 < Alcyius> To be honest, I'm probably not gonna get a magnet because I do too much work building computers
03:53 < Alcyius> And I don't want to take that risk
03:53 < fenn> it takes a large number of cycles in a very strong field to demagnetize a permanent magnet, so you'd have to be near a coil with a flux concentrator and hold your hand over it, which would probably be quite painful
03:54 < fenn> alcyius i thought the primary use case for the magnet implant was to do electronics troubleshooting
03:54 < Alcyius> fenn, isn't there an issue with becoming desensitized to the magnet's movement?
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03:54 < Alcyius> fenn, I'm not entirely sure, I haven't read up on it in a while
03:54 < Alcyius> It might be, but on the other hand, I don't want to ruin equipment worth $100s
03:55 < Alcyius> Unless I get to where I can afford that
03:55 < fenn> well you can feel wires with current flowing in them and hard drive heads moving
03:56 < Alcyius> Oh yeah definitely, I've read testimonies
03:56 < fenn> magnet implants are so small it would be impossible to mess up a hard disk with one, even if you touched it while it was operating
03:56 < Alcyius> what about RAM and processors though
03:57 < fenn> no
03:57 < Alcyius> Oh ok
03:57 < Alcyius> In that case I only have to worry about MRIs
03:57 < fenn> the only thing that might be affected is magnetic credit card strips
03:58 < Alcyius> Which, depending on my condition, may or may not be in my future
03:58 < fenn> you don't have a debit card?
03:58 < Alcyius> I meant MRIs
03:58 < fenn> oh
03:58 < Alcyius> I have a debit card yes
03:59 < Alcyius> No I have Visual Snow accompanied by severe cluster/pressure band headaches
03:59 < Alcyius> Aka, my vision looks like it's through a TV screen with a bad connector
04:00 < fenn> migraine with aura
04:00 < gaydude> hahaha
04:00 < fenn> yes it's so funny
04:01 < Alcyius> anyways, I have an exam to get ready for
04:01 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aura_(symptom)
04:08 < Alcyius> fenn, my condition is distinct from migraines with auras. It is a persistent, all-encompassing visual disturbance that's closer to a haze of static than an aura, and the headaches are not migraines, but are instead cluster headaches or pressure band headaches
04:08 < Alcyius> http://eyeonvision.org/visual-snow.html
04:09 < Alcyius> anyways, I have to go. Wish me luck.
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04:31 < fenn> http://selfhacked.com/2013/11/14/my-review-of-lllt/ near infrared laser therapy increases reactive oxygen species and has an anti-inflammatory effect by hormesis
04:32 < ebowden> How did he measure this? Was it blinded?
04:33 < fenn> honestly i'm skeptical of his personal experiments but there are a lot of links to scientific journal papers
04:33 < fenn> if i'm reading this right it seems like it's a technological substitute for exercise
04:34 < fenn> he says methylene blue does the same thing
04:38 < fenn> if this cytochrome-pumping ROS generating effect of infrared is true, it would break down some safety distinctions between infrared and ionizing radiation
04:41 < fenn> hum maybe methylene blue is just a mitochondrial antioxidant, i don't see the evidence for hormesis
04:43 < fenn> memory enhancement in mice injected with 1mg/kg methylene blue
04:44 < fenn> review article of memory enhancement and neuroprotective effects of methylene blue http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3265679/
04:51 < fenn> his recommended dose is 60 micrograms of methylene blue
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05:03 < fenn> best effects at 15-30 micrograms methylene blue reported by multiple people
05:04 < fenn> "I felt more driven to get things done, more focused and more irritable / less patient with people and less interested in how they were going to feel if I said certain things"
05:10 < fenn> there was some muttering about it being an MAOI
05:20 < fenn> insignificant MAOI effect in the sub-milligram dose range
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05:38 < Diablo-D3> so what doe it do?
05:48 < fenn> mitochrondrial antioxidant, and/or mito-hormesis by way of reactive oxygen species production, or something else entirely
05:49 < fenn> "more driven and more irritable and memory consolidation" sure sounds like increase dopamine though (effect of MAOI)
06:15 < Diablo-D3> maybe I should look into it >_.
06:15 < Diablo-D3> >_>
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06:41 < Alcyius> Hello
06:41 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:42 < Alcyius> Finished with my exam
06:44 < Alcyius> can't wait for 11, want me some chipotle
06:45 < Alcyius> Shame they refuse to use GMOs, but maybe with the whole E. Coli/Norovirus deal they'll move. Or just require their farmers to implement stricter hygiene requirements
06:46 < Alcyius> Ok that's kinda weird, periodically freenode keeps giving me a huge list of everyone in the channel
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07:05 < JayDugger> Good morning.
07:05 < Alcyius> Morning
07:05 < Alcyius> every 4 minutes....that's weird
07:11 < JayDugger> Thank you for the links, fenn.
07:15 < bjonnh> that's us-centric
07:16 < JayDugger> ?
07:16 < Alcyius> What's us-centric?
07:23 < maaku_> Alcyius: you're young, in college I take it?
07:23 < Alcyius> Yeah
07:23 < maaku_> studying computer science?
07:23 < Alcyius> I start my first major courses next semester
07:24 < Alcyius> Right now the extent of my knowledge is some linux and how to build computers, but I'm a fast learner
07:24 < JayDugger> Thought so, fenn. LLLT similar to, but not same as, one of Dave Asprey's of gadgets.
07:24 < maaku_> well make shittons of money and reach FI is generally the approach for someone with such leanings
07:24 < Alcyius> Yeah that's the plan
07:25 < Alcyius> I've seen what bad financial planning does to people
07:25 < JayDugger> Reach FI with a job you like, if possible.
07:25 < Alcyius> My dad got laid off and after drug abuse and stuff he killed himself
07:25 < Alcyius> So yeah
07:25 < maaku_> my recommended strategy: learn as much as you can in college, study abroad, and focus on -building things- , something you'll do outside of class
07:25 < JayDugger> My sympathies for your loss.
07:25 < Alcyius> Eh it was years ago
07:25 < maaku_> also I'm sorry for your loss
07:26 < Alcyius> The insane therapist who tried to brainwash me into evangelical christianity did more harm than the actual death
07:26 < Alcyius> But thank you
07:26 < kanzure> Alcyius: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transhumanism
07:27 < maaku_> pick a field that intersects your interests and is hot, enter startup land with goal of FI by 5 years via exit, if 5-8 years out that's not looking possible, switch to highpaying big business (google, facebook, etc.) with >$200k salary, live ina a shoebox and FI early
07:27 < maaku_> also, buy bitcoins :)
07:28 < Alcyius> Also, may/may not be relevant, but I do have about 3 months of experience in mass spectrometry, though that was really a crash course
07:28 < maaku_> I really wish there was a company I could say "go work there!" but sadly there isn't anything like that out there yet...
07:28 < Alcyius> Might be able to leverage that, but I learned that I hate it
07:28 < maaku_> also avoid philosophy
07:28 < JayDugger> Failing start-up land, live below your means, stay out of debt, invest the difference, and wait.
07:28 < Alcyius> maaku_: eh, I have connections I can leverage for job opportunities, so I'm not TOO worried
07:28 < kanzure> waiting is overrated
07:28 < JayDugger> And yes, buy bitcoins. :)
07:28 < JayDugger> Very overrated, but it works.
07:28 < Alcyius> My biggest issue now is overcoming my crippling depression to do well in my classes
07:29 < kanzure> have you tried lobotomy?
07:29 < maaku_> Alcyius: I mean there really isn't any company out there working on the transhumanist vision directly
07:29 < Alcyius> I heard that there's a lot of issues converting bitcoins back to USD
07:29 < Alcyius> maaku_: I figured
07:29 < JayDugger> I think a lobotomy would make waiting easier.
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07:29 < Alcyius> Yes, but a lobotomy would kill my ability to DO stuff
07:30 < Alcyius> So I'm looking into more therapy/psychiatric medications
07:30 < Alcyius> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2071
07:30 < Alcyius> Heh
07:31 < JayDugger> I hope you find an effective treatment, but I know very little about it.
07:32 < Alcyius> I think I need to look outside SSRIs
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07:32 < bjonnh> http://www.sciencealert.com/us-town-rejects-solar-farm-amid-worries-it-would-suck-up-all-the-energy-from-the-sun?perpetual=yes&limitstart=1
07:32 < Alcyius> The ones I've tried just made me more depressed
07:32 < Alcyius> bjonnh: I saw that earlier today
07:32 < maaku_> Alcyius: not really (re: bitcoin/usd). not unless you are trying to convert $100m or something like that
07:33 < Alcyius> one of our old family friends recommended day trading, but I'm kinda iffy
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07:33 < Alcyius> I like a good diversified stock portfolio with stable long-term growth
07:33 < bjonnh> what worries me is that nobody was able to explain to them?
07:33 < Alcyius> bjonnh: people can explain all they want
07:33 < Alcyius> These are people who DON'T want to listen
07:34 < bjonnh> may be
07:34 < Alcyius> "I've decided to associate all change with social decay"
07:35 < bjonnh> well it is at least as dumb as accepting any change because progress
07:35 < Alcyius> I plan on being a self-aware old man
07:35 < Alcyius> well
07:35 < Alcyius> hopefully not an old man but that's another topic of discussion altogether
07:36 < bjonnh> self-aware?
07:36 < Alcyius> older people are likely to identify all change with social decay, ie. "Kids these days syndrome"
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07:37 < bjonnh> so making hypothesis that there could be social decay
07:37 < bjonnh> how would it be identified then?
07:38 < Alcyius> That's an interesting question
07:38 < Alcyius> More on the side of philosophy
07:38 < Alcyius> but if you were aiming to identify social decay, you need to establish a reference point
07:38 < maaku_> Alcyius: when you're older you'll understand
07:38 < Alcyius> pffft
07:39 < bjonnh> I think many old people identify correctly social decay. It is decay of their social system.
07:39 < bjonnh> doesn't mean that something else was not growing at the same time
07:39 < Alcyius> Yeah, but they also have flawed memories
07:40 < bjonnh> and youngs lack experience
07:40 < Alcyius> And idealize a version of the past that never really existed
07:40 < bjonnh> that's just two different biased ways to look at life :p
07:41 < kanzure> when did this channel get so grumpy
07:41 < kanzure> who do i need to ban
07:41 < bjonnh> who is grumpy?
07:41 < Alcyius> Now now
07:41 < Alcyius> Let's just take a moment
07:41 < Alcyius> And get irrationally angry at each other
07:41 < Alcyius> Like adults
07:42 < kanzure> what does that have to do with anything? huh?
07:42 < Alcyius> Idk
08:21 < Alcyius> also philosophical discussions about transhumanism do have value
08:21 < Alcyius> they help you figure out how to better defend it to laypeople
08:21 < Alcyius> And while you could just wait for people who are against it to die off
08:21 < Alcyius> That's a long haul
08:23 < maaku_> Alcyius: that has no perceived value here
08:23 < maaku_> don't ask permission or bother explaining yourself. just do.
08:23 < Alcyius> improving popular opinion on transhumanism equates to more funding and less hostility towards research
08:23 < kanzure> that's just false
08:23 < maaku_> only when you're going about it the wrong way
08:24 < kanzure> "raise awareness"
08:24 < kanzure> no amount of "awareness" is going to fix your inability to execute
08:24 < kanzure> *raised awareness
08:27 < AdrianG> awareness is cheap.
08:27 < AdrianG> just develop solutions and sell them.
08:28 < AdrianG> there is a billion people waiting for solutions they will pay for.
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09:19 < bjonnh> Alcyius: the philosophy here is JFDI.
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10:06 < kanzure> "Many lab tests - though not all - are effectively commoditized. There is little difference in quality, and the requisite supplies are widely available at low costs. X-rays have been used for medical purposes for literally over 100 years, and it's not very difficult to train someone to take an x-ray properly using modern equipment. (Actually interpreting the results of a test is a different matter). For tests which fall under these ...
10:06 < kanzure> ... categories, it will always be more expensive to obtain them in the US than in India, because the cost-of-living in the US is much higher, and paying people to actually perform the tests dominates the costs of the test itself."
10:06 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10731415
10:06 < yoleaux> My adventures in medical tourism | Hacker News
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10:13 < kanzure> "SceneNet: Understanding Real World Indoor Scenes With Synthetic Data" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1511.07041v1.pdf
10:15 < Jawmare> kanzure, the rigorous QC requirement for lab test makes it expensive
10:15 < Jawmare> anyone can operate a HPLC machine, but to make sure that the data is 99% accurate...
10:18 < kanzure> yes i'm sure there are also regulatory costs
10:24 < TMA> in the czech republic the equipment costs and regulatory costs dominate, not the personal costs; the personal costs are almost negligible in comparison
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10:29 < vortus> Well I mean, given enough time and a bit of know how you could put together your own lab http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Hitachi-L-7400-UV-Detector-HPLC-System-/271889055444?hash=item3f4dd9bed4:g:2gsAAOSw~OdVbiVG
10:30 < vortus> There are also lots of other means to determine purity than an HPLC system, but the accuracy is lack luster.
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10:36 < bjonnh> Jawmare: also the right technique must be used…
10:36 < bjonnh> because HPLC is not always the best choice for purity
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11:09 < docl> Alcyius: mass spectrometry stuff could have important applications in self-replicating / semi-replicating robotic systems.
11:09 < docl> fenn was talking about that in http://gnusha.org/logs/2008-03-28.log
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11:52 < drethelin> sup bros
11:52 < eudoxia> hello
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12:51 < AdrianG> man
12:53 < AdrianG> is all this dust and detritus?
12:53 < AdrianG> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/proposals/
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13:06 < kanzure> it's a wiki, edit the page dude.
13:06 < kanzure> here's a bunch of projects http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects
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13:58 < FourFire> Hey kanzure, are you around?
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14:36 < FourFire> nevermind, I lost my train of thought :/
14:38 < xentrac> kanzure recommends amphetamine for that
14:41 < rhaps0dy> Whaat.
14:43 < fenn> delayed release amphetamine
14:43 < fenn> "XR"
14:44 < rhaps0dy> I mean, you should just have posted your train of thought.
14:44 < fenn> yeah IRC is a variable-latency medium
14:44 < fenn> don't ask to ask
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14:48 < xentrac> fenn: did you see my note the other night about topology optimization and negative stiffness?
14:48 < fenn> uh probably not
14:49 < xentrac> well, if giant-stiffness metamaterials can in fact be constructed using negative-stiffness kinematics, then topology optimization might discover this
14:50 < xentrac> especially since compliance (1/stiffness) is the objective function that people most commonly optimize in topopt
14:50 < fenn> i doubt there's a direct path that leads through this wacky mechanism with a linear optimizer
14:50 < xentrac> this doesn't seem to have happened, which might be because (a) existing topopt systems use a search strategy that's too lame to find it, (b) because it isn't in fact possible despite what I think, or (c) some other reason
14:51 < fenn> (a)
14:52 < xentrac> forgive me for going all Yudkowsky here, but I'd say this is a certain amount of evidence in favor of both (a) and (b)
14:52 < fenn> it doesn't find preloading either, and that definitely works
14:52 < xentrac> those two things are not unrelated actually
14:53 < fenn> there's just no representation for springs under tension in the model they are using
14:54 < xentrac> well, there is; it just isn't part of their solution space
14:54 < xentrac> the two things are not unrelated because no construct has negative stiffness everywhere; that would violate conservation of energy
14:54 < xentrac> only over a certain range of deformations can you have negative stiffness
14:55 < fenn> what about unstable near-degenerate matter
14:55 < fenn> touch it and it coalesces into neutronium
14:55 < xentrac> sounds tasty
14:57 < xentrac> anyway, that might be an adequate explanation by itself for why those solutions haven't been found via topopt
14:57 < fenn> or those closed cell foams containing vacuum
14:58 < xentrac> one of the most studied negative-stiffness configurations is a "holey sheet"
14:58 < xentrac> an elastomeric plate with a square grid of round holes in it
14:58 < fenn> that doesn't seem like it would have negative stiffness
14:58 < rhaps0dy> xentrac: awesome name ^^
14:59 < xentrac> .g negative stiffness holey sheet
14:59 < yoleaux> https://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/scripties/BachBeentjes.pdf
14:59 < xentrac> in that case the foam is just open on the sides instead of being full of vacuum
14:59 < fenn> oh because one side moves up when you push the other sie down?
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15:00 < fenn> this still doesn't seem like negative stiffness
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15:01 < fenn> "the applied compression is now larger than the critical displacement and the sheet has buckled, resulting in large displacements"
15:01 < xentrac> it turns out to have both a negative-stiffness region and a Poisson anomaly
15:01 < fenn> so i guess according to this definition a simple cylindrical tube is a negative stiffness stucture when compressed axially
15:02 < xentrac> yes, buckling beams are a very common way to get negative stiffness
15:03 < fenn> their constant capitalization of Holey Sheet is distracting...
15:04 < xentrac> yes, it seems like a particularly non-proper-noun sort of term, doesn't it?
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15:05 < fenn> fig 1.2 is sufficient to explain this entire paper
15:06 < xentrac> well, you can't really deduce the negative-stiffness region in fig. 1.3 from fig. 1.2
15:07 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/holey_sheet_compression_negative_stiffness.png
15:08 < xentrac> yes, I know which fig. 1.2 you mean ;)
15:08 < fenn> well others might be reading this and it would be dumb to download a 16MB paper just for this image
15:09 < xentrac> oh, okay
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15:42 < FourFire> so, I'm going to be staying within drunken crawling distance* of this event I'm attending in germany during the weekend
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16:40 < AdrianG> kanzure: you are missing anything nuclear related on your page. idk why.
16:40 < AdrianG> regulations?
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16:53 < nmz787_i> AdrianG: certainly not regulation related
16:54 < nmz787_i> AdrianG: but what would your suggested additions be?
16:54 < nmz787_i> aren't there outer-space type examples (dyson sphere stuff, etc)?
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17:15 < xentrac> kanzure: what do you think of Martin Bogomolni?
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17:37 < erasmus> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-28041743?mc_cid=05a117aea0&mc_eid=308670b4dd
17:40 < xentrac> have any of you looked at Jacques Mattheij's windmill design?  he wrote a parametric CAD system and built his own CNC plasma cutting system as part of the project, then open sourced it all
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18:15 < AdrianG> nmz787: laser isotope enrichment
18:15 < AdrianG> but im afraid that instead of regulations, that would land you in jail (at best)
18:17 < xentrac> maybe that's why?
18:24 < AdrianG> well, on paper it will be some kind of regulations they will cite
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18:50 < xentrac> maybe if you're worried that talking about this will "land you in jail (at best)" then you shouldn't talk about it
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19:16 < AdrianG> talking about things isnt illegal
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19:30 < juri_> xentrac: another parametric cad system?
19:31  * juri_ is designing motor mounts for here CNC/3d printer/pen plotter/laser cutter/highres camera/... in her fork of ImplicitCAD.
19:35 < kanzure> xentrac: hard to say... i know a thing or two, but they are strange and hard to explain why i know those things.
19:35 < kanzure> didn't know about jacquesm's cad software.
19:36 < kanzure> er, my other message was re: martin
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20:01 < xentrac> heh\
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20:04 < xentrac> juri_: it looks mostly like a bunch of PHP scripts that output G-code and do some visualizations in GD
20:04 < xentrac> this kind of thing:
20:04 < xentrac> # step 'inwards' at edge of slot
20:04 < xentrac> $instep = $diameter / 100;
20:04 < xentrac> # step inwards at the 3-4 and 5-6 edges
20:04 < xentrac> $instep2 = $diameter / 60;
20:04 < xentrac> $filletsize = $diameter / 100;
20:07 < xentrac> he also wrote an interactive Python thing for designing windmill blade profiles
20:08 < AdrianG> are there 3D scanners btw?
20:08 < AdrianG> 3d printers would be a lot more useful if you can 3D scan. I've got like a million things i want to 3D scan.
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20:12 < xentrac> yes
20:12 < xentrac> structured light, photogrammetry, cyberware laser scanners, structure from motion, and touch-probe 3D scanners
20:13 < xentrac> also more specialized systems like holographic and LIDAR systems
20:14 < xentrac> maybe http://reprap.org/wiki/3D_scanning is a good place to start
20:14 < xentrac> the interactive Python thing is too janky for me to get it running right now, which is a shame; it looks like it might have interesting insights into his thought processes
20:15 < xentrac> kanzure: most things that can be known about Martin are strange :)
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20:54 < kanzure>  /win 3
20:54 < kanzure> feoifqijeroq
20:57 < justanotheruser> more like /lose 3
20:57 < justanotheruser> heyooo
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21:08 < kanzure> "Estimating the reproducibility of psychological science" http://www.sciencemag.org/content/349/6251/aac4716
21:08 < kanzure> "Mapping tree density at a global scale" http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v525/n7568/full/nature14967.html
21:11 < kanzure> "Shaping the oral microbiota through intimate kissing" http://microbiomejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2049-2618-2-41
21:11 < kanzure> "CRISPR/Cas9-mediated gene editing in human tripronuclear zygotes" http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs13238-015-0153-5
21:11 < kanzure> "The genome of cultivated sweet potato contains Agrobacterium T-DNAs with expressed genes: An example of a naturally transgenic food crop" http://www.pnas.org/content/112/18/5844
21:18 < kanzure> "An investigation of the false discovery rate and the misinterpretation of p-values" http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/1/3/140216
21:19 < erasmus> I like kissing
21:19 < erasmus> :X
21:22 < kanzure> "Sizing ocean giants: patterns of intraspecific size variation in marine megafauna" https://peerj.com/articles/715/
21:37 < kanzure> "The Oligopoly of Academic Publishers in the Digital Era" http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0127502
21:38 < kanzure> dunno what is going on here "Continuous liquid interface production of 3D objects" http://www.sciencemag.org/content/347/6228/1349
21:38 < Diablo-D3> WHAT ARE WE DOING
21:38 < Diablo-D3> er sorry caps
21:38 < Diablo-D3> why do keyboards even HAVE capslock >_>
21:39 < kanzure> capslock is for resisting against the downcase apocalypse
21:39 < Diablo-D3> YES, WE SHALL NOW ALL SPEAK LIKE THIS
21:40 < Diablo-D3> LOOK AT ME, I SPEAK IN A LOUD VOICE. ALSO, MY VOICE IS DEEPER FOR SOME REASON.
21:41 < justanotheruser> ɪɴᴅᴇᴇᴅ
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22:16 < bjonnh> Diablo-D3: because some DBs were coded in uppercase only
22:16 < bjonnh> for efficiency reasons and readability
22:16 < bjonnh> also because it is easier when you type an uppercase title
22:16 < bjonnh> which was common on typewriters and early word processors
22:16 < justanotheruser> I must be daft. Is this a joke?
22:16 < justanotheruser> How does uppercase only increase efficiency
22:16 < Diablo-D3> justanotheruser is death.
22:17 < bjonnh> justanotheruser: upper or lower
22:17 < bjonnh> whatever
22:17 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: and its been a LOOOOONG time since all caps was a thing in any sort of coding
22:17 < bjonnh> sure
22:17 < Diablo-D3> like, I may in fact be younger than that trend
22:17 < bjonnh> but why are the keys in this order?
22:17 < Diablo-D3> and Im 32.
22:17 < Diablo-D3> I think you misunderstood
22:17 < justanotheruser> bjonnh: because they were optimized for typing speed
22:17 < Diablo-D3> why on a modern keyboard are we keeping capslock
22:17 < bjonnh> justanotheruser: optimized for typing speed on mechanical typewriters
22:17 < Diablo-D3> but getting rid of _useful_ shit like that 6 key block above the cursor keys
22:18 < justanotheruser> Diablo-D3: you mean left-upper-control?
22:18 < bjonnh> justanotheruser: because it jammed the arms together if you were typing some characters together
22:18 < justanotheruser> bjonnh: no, you're thinking of qwerty
22:18 < Diablo-D3> justanotheruser: meh, I know people who swap it with esc
22:18 < bjonnh> yes
22:18 < bjonnh> and he was asking why do we keep old stuff
22:18 < bjonnh> like capslock…
22:18 < bjonnh> history
22:18 < justanotheruser> oh. Only lame people use qwerty
22:18 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: no, I was asking why not get rid of it instead of getting rid of keys _I want to use_
22:19 < bjonnh> oh
22:19 < Diablo-D3> like, my favorite keyboard? has _exactly_ the keys I want
22:19 < bjonnh> sorry
22:19 < bjonnh> what is your favorite keyboard?
22:19 < Diablo-D3> a tenkeyless made with plate mounted cherry mx reds
22:19 < justanotheruser> Diablo-D3: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/
22:19 < bjonnh> actually my capslock is mapped to ctrl
22:19 < bjonnh> and ctrl to compose
22:19 < Diablo-D3> gets rid of the numpad, keeps the cursor keys and the pgup/dn/home/end/ins/del block
22:20 < Diablo-D3> and has no fucking media keys
22:20 < Diablo-D3> and no fn key
22:20 < Diablo-D3> and no other stupid goddamned shit
22:20 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: and yeah, a lot of people do that
22:20 < Diablo-D3> emacs people remap control to capslock habitually
22:20 < justanotheruser> what I would really like is custom printed key stencils so I can paint the keys black, then paint the proper key on using the stencil
22:20 < bjonnh> well I'm an "emacs people"
22:20 < bjonnh> so it is not surprising
22:21 < bjonnh> and I'm using bepo (kind of dvorak for french)
22:21 < bjonnh> but I can swing between qwerty, azerty and bepo
22:21 < bjonnh> when I use other people computers
22:22 < bjonnh> justanotheruser: I tried that with different kind of paints, but none stayed
22:22 < Diablo-D3> so wait
22:22 < Diablo-D3> why the fuck would you need dvorak for any language?
22:23 < bjonnh> because dvorak is optimized for typing speed
22:23 < Diablo-D3> I thought the entire point was an optimized layout that works well for all western languages?
22:23 < bjonnh> and the most used letters are different in all languages
22:23 < bjonnh> nope french has a lot of accents for example
22:23 < Diablo-D3> huh
22:23 < justanotheruser> http://luke.dashjr.org/education/tonal/keyboard/dvorak-tonal.png
22:23 < bjonnh> but there are other differences
22:23 < Diablo-D3> justanotheruser: dont link to lukejr's website >_>
22:23 < justanotheruser> why not?
22:24 < justanotheruser> he has some interesting stuff
22:24 < Diablo-D3> because hes an annoying trolllllllll
22:24 < bjonnh> Diablo-D3: why?
22:24 < bjonnh> oh
22:24 < Diablo-D3> people call me a troll? no. no no no, he has me waaay beat
22:24 < Diablo-D3> I troll when an opportunity arrises, someone superglued his troll switch in the on position
22:24 < bjonnh> also it seems that dvorak may not be optimal in term of speed
22:24 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: it depends
22:24 < bjonnh> that's what wikipedia page says
22:24 < Diablo-D3> like
22:24 < Diablo-D3> I have too much muscle memory as qwerty
22:25 < justanotheruser> bjonnh: there are some close layouts that beat dvorak
22:25 < bjonnh> bepo is really recent and was really optimized for that
22:25 < Diablo-D3> it'd take me another 20 years of nothing but dvorak to catch up
22:25 < justanotheruser> but its just barely
22:25 < Diablo-D3> _and also_
22:25 < bjonnh> also works really well for english
22:25 < Diablo-D3> I like to think before I type
22:25 < Diablo-D3> I type like a typical perlist
22:25 < bjonnh> I'm typing mostly english now, and my keyboards have the middle row erased ;)
22:25 < Diablo-D3> plus, plus
22:25 < justanotheruser> you wore off the color?
22:25 < bjonnh> yep
22:26 < Diablo-D3> getting dvorak consistently
22:26 < Diablo-D3> just wont happen
22:26 < justanotheruser> I had dvorak stickers, the homerow stickers left first
22:26 < Diablo-D3> okay so
22:26 < justanotheruser> now all I have left are the very outside stickers
22:26 < bjonnh> I stopped writing on keyboards or stickers
22:26 < Diablo-D3> I learned to type at a very young age
22:26 < Diablo-D3> how do you learn to type by looking at the keyboard?
22:26 < bjonnh> yep
22:26 < bjonnh> I just kept the layout in front of me on a sheet of paper
22:27 < Diablo-D3> like, literally, I _know_ when Ive pressed the wrong key
22:27 < Diablo-D3> I can feel it
22:27 < bjonnh> took me a couple of weeks to get to 3/4 of my azerty speed
22:27 < Diablo-D3> its why I hate typing on foreign keyboards
22:27 < Diablo-D3> the feel is all wrong
22:27 < bjonnh> took a long time to get beyond 100% though
22:27  * Diablo-D3 feels like hes the only one here who gets that
22:27 < bjonnh> and like 5 years after, I sometimes forget where a specific key is
22:28 < Diablo-D3> also, btw, whats the point of typing faster than 120wpm?
22:28 < bjonnh> is that a troll attempt?
22:28 < justanotheruser> transcribing?
22:28 < justanotheruser> coding faster
22:28 < bjonnh> chatting on irc…
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22:29 < Diablo-D3> I'm not trolling
22:29 < Diablo-D3> Also, re: qwerty vs any other layout.... games.
22:29 < Diablo-D3> too many games just very badly screw this up
22:29 < Diablo-D3> wasd is wasd no matter what your layout is, period
22:30 < justanotheruser> yeah, it does suck
22:30 < bjonnh> "whats the point of reaching/doing xxx" is usually not really productive as a comment
22:30 < Diablo-D3> I dont care what letter comes out when you press wasd, its wasd
22:30 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: no, it is
22:30 < justanotheruser> you can map ctrl+9 to remap though
22:30 < bjonnh> well you can map dynamically
22:30 < bjonnh> most OSes/DE support that
22:30 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: its called wasting time optimizing something thats already fast enough
22:30 < Diablo-D3> mapping dynamically gets weird
22:30 < Diablo-D3> due to in game chat
22:31 < bjonnh> well I don't do games
22:31 < bjonnh> I wonder why you could decide that xxx is fast enough for everybody
22:32 < bjonnh> it is like saying that 640k will be enough
22:32 < Diablo-D3> because the human mind generally can only process intelligible language only so fast
22:33 < bjonnh> you're making this up
22:33 < bjonnh> sorry
22:34 < Diablo-D3> am I?
22:34 < bjonnh> yes
22:34 < bjonnh> stenotypist reach easily over 200wpm
22:34 < Diablo-D3> I mean, you can start using counter arguments such as those training programs that make you read super fast or whatnot
22:34 < bjonnh> and can go far higher
22:34 < bjonnh> no
22:34 < bjonnh> I'm talking about real life stuff
22:35 < bjonnh> like typists for court
22:35 < Diablo-D3> do _any_ of those programs work btw?
22:35 < bjonnh> for their creator that sell them? probably :p
22:35 < Diablo-D3> and btw, a lot of stenographers still use shorthand
22:35 < bjonnh> and?
22:35 < bjonnh> I was just opposing real data to your argument "human mind generally can only process intelligible language only so fast"
22:35 < Diablo-D3> just saying
22:36 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: well
22:36 < Diablo-D3> first of all, stenographers are unique
22:36 < bjonnh> wikipedia says: The average adult reads prose text at 250 to 300 words per minute.
22:36 < Diablo-D3> and it also takes the entire concentration to record accurately that fast
22:37 < bjonnh> I'll not pursue this conversation further
22:37 < Diablo-D3> *their
22:37 < bjonnh> you are just trying to justify an argument that was not valid
22:37 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: Im talking about average people, I guess.
22:38 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: okay so, wait a second
22:38 < Diablo-D3> if the average person can read 250-300 words per minute
22:38 < Diablo-D3> the average novel has 250-300 words per page
22:38 < Diablo-D3> and there are, say, 500 page novels
22:40 < bjonnh> you are then making the assumption that this speed can be sustained for 500 minutes, and that attention is constant when reading a book
22:40 < Diablo-D3> well what Im saying is
22:41 < Diablo-D3> that actually might be right
22:41 < bjonnh> yeah 1p/min sounds about right for novel-reading
22:41 < justanotheruser> so what you're telling me is I can pump out 2 novels a day if I get to 200WPM?
22:41 < bjonnh> justanotheruser: YES
22:41 < bjonnh> start now
22:41 < Diablo-D3> bjonnh: because I regularly read novels in around 5-8h depending on the size
22:43 < Diablo-D3> well, used to regularly
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 15 00:00:37 2015