--- Log opened Fri Dec 18 00:00:40 2015
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01:39 < docl> https://youtu.be/odU1bHaYNDQ
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05:03 < rkos> hi, is paperbot back online?
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05:04 < rkos> just wondering if theres anywhere where i could get this article http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1620/abstract ?
05:05 < Diablo-D3> the url that says get pdf?
05:05 < rkos> nah but it requires an account
05:05 < Diablo-D3> sigh
05:05 < Diablo-D3> government money paid for this research
05:05 < Diablo-D3> this makes me angry
05:07 < rkos> oh its on libgen
05:07 < Diablo-D3> url?
05:08 < rkos> http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/index.php?s=pcp+mxe&journalid=&v=&i=&p=&redirect=1
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05:30 < streety> Diablo-D3: how do you know government money paid for that research?
05:30 < Diablo-D3> streety: because its research.
05:30 < Diablo-D3> So much research is "tainted" by tax payer money, they'd have to prove they didn't get government funding somewhere
05:30 < streety> not all research is government funded
05:30 < Diablo-D3> If even a single penny went in, that research belongs to me
05:32 < Diablo-D3> I dunno, it just drives me up a wall that people think its okay to put research papers behind paywalls
05:32 < Diablo-D3> Its just massively bullshit
05:33 < streety> I'm all for research being made freely available but the government angle seems like a poor argument
05:34 < Diablo-D3> streety: its one of those things where, in the US, once government funding goes into it, your ability to claim you have true real honest to god rights to ownership of it
05:35 < Diablo-D3> like, if NASA does something? they can't even claim copyright
05:35 < Diablo-D3> because thats 100% made by the government
05:35 < streety> this article was written in the US, so might 'belong' to all Americans but what about Japanese or Europeans? What if it was written by European or Japanese researchers?
05:36 < Diablo-D3> I want to say EU has similar feelings about this
05:36 < Diablo-D3> Japan? Who knows, probably US funding went into it somewhere
05:36 < Diablo-D3> if you told me the US was funding scientific research in other countries, I wouldn't even question it, I really wouldn't
05:38 < streety> Hopefully everyone worldwide feels that research should be globally available. It doesn't necessarily follow that use of US research dollars means someone in another country should have free access to it. And vice versa
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06:48 < kanzure> anders sandberg lecture on stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1qu3OGGbuM
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07:06 < archels> kanzure: anything new?
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07:08 < kanzure> no idea, my internet connection has been dropping connections like crazy, can't see a thing
07:08 < archels> how are you not pulling your hair out right now
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07:13 < kanzure> well i'm replaying new star wars in my head. so there's that.
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07:16 < kanzure> pew pew pew. kaboosh.
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07:24 < FourFire> fenn, why can't the magnetic particles cooling process just be repeated?
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07:52 < fenn> fourfire then it's just refrigeration
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08:10 < Alcyius> I just got informed that I have direct admission to my university's College of Engineering
08:15 < JayDugger> Congratulations.
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08:19 < kanzure> you owe me 100 pages of typed text for why you are ignoring my advice
08:19 < Alcyius> Which advice
08:19 < kanzure> huh i guess that explains it
08:20 < kanzure> you can do fine without college
08:20 < Alcyius> Well yeah, but I'm already 2 years into it, and it's a claim ticket for 20% greater life earnings
08:20 < Alcyius> And the easier it gets, the stupider I look for not doing it
08:20 < kanzure> "20% greater life earnings" this is not how statistics works
08:21 < Alcyius> My goal is to get a job working for a startup and hit FI as soon as possible
08:21 < kanzure> startups don't care about college
08:21 < Alcyius> Fair enough
08:22 < Alcyius> I'm mostly doing it cuz its free
08:22 < Alcyius> I have enough scholarships to not pay a penny
08:22 < kanzure> financial independence can be achieved much more quickly by earning money immediately instead of waiting
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08:22 < kanzure> trivial argument in favor of this is to point you towards how compound interest is important (e.g. better to earn a high income as quickly as possible)
08:23 < kanzure> high income later in life is less useful because you have less years in that direction.
08:24 < kanzure> jrayhawk: does sympa have better moderation tools for incoming email moderation? like group-based moderating with votes or audit logs or something.
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08:56 < fenn> apparently if you get enough scholarships you just get free money, like to put in a bank account
08:57 < fenn> someone i know is getting like $100k that way
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09:06 < Alcyius> fenn, yeah, though it's dependent on the school/scholarship
09:07 < Alcyius> My uni tried to stop giving "refund" checks
09:07 < Alcyius> There was a huge outroar but they still don't refund 100% of the money
09:07 < Alcyius> Which is stupid as all hell, cuz its your fucking money
09:12 < Alcyius> http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=1643
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09:29 < docl> FourFire: the issue with that is its not really "cooling" with magnetic fields so much as temporarily increasing tempetrature.
09:29 < fenn> s/temperature/heat capacity/
09:30 < fenn> this is some pretty gnarly stuff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolinic_acid
09:32 < Alcyius> that reminds me
09:33 < Alcyius> Anyone here read about that person trying to modify tobacco plants to produce sex horomones
09:33 < Alcyius> *hormones
09:33 < Alcyius> Always fuck that up
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09:51 < kanzure> "After rigorous testing, the new BitFury Chip has demonstrated outstanding computing capabilities. The design target was 40 gigahash per second with power efficiency of 0.06 joules per gigahash. On average, the measured power efficiency of tested engineering samples of the new BitFury Chip ranges from 0.055 joules per gigahash to 0.07 joules per gigahash, thus making the BitFury 16nm ASIC Chip the industry leader in energy efficiency."
09:52 < kanzure> also, here's some stuff about soft-forks in bitcoin land:
09:52 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011974.html
09:52 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011980.html
09:52 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012014.html
09:52 < fenn> already used up my monthly quota of fucks to give for bitcoin
09:53 < Alcyius> I don't know why, but something about bitcoin just puts me off
09:53 < kanzure> fenn: the third one is sorta interesting about compatibility. it's not much fuckery there.
09:53 < kanzure> Alcyius: well, money is pretty awful
09:53 < Alcyius> Yeah
09:53 < Alcyius> Also, it just feels like bitcoin has more problems than traditional fiat currencies
09:54 < kanzure> Alcyius: to be fair, hplusroadmap was also extremely negative about bitcoin. we heard about it one day after it was released to the publish: http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-10.log
09:54 < Alcyius> At least the USD has the US Government telling people to use it
09:54 < kanzure> *released to the public
09:54 < kanzure> in fact, i have recently decided that it is completely fair to call myself the first bitcoin hater
09:54 < superkuh> I don't understand it. Luckily I don't need to to use it. Regardless of the political infighting of the week re, scaling, blocksize, etc, etc, it's still better than using the credit card system.
09:54 < Alcyius> lol you particularly called it crap
09:55 < fenn> this was in the context of being sick of hearing about p2p energy currencies from marc fawzi
09:55 < kanzure> yeah to be fair that is a good reason to be angry/upset
09:55 < Alcyius> fair enough
09:55 < kanzure> superkuh: i am curious which aspects you don't understand yet. i have learned much of the art of explaining many of these components.
09:58 < fenn> this growing understanding of the implications of soft vs hard forks has relevance for other distributed software systems as well
09:59 < Alcyius> "Social consequences of all deaths being violent or accidental in nature."
09:59 < kanzure> satoshi nakamoto originally did not have a strong understanding of consensus forks, because many of the opcodes he originally introduced would make the network self-fork against itself (there was an opcode that checked the version number of the client that was validating the current transaction.............).
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10:08 < fenn> alcyius are you physically in school right now?
10:08 < Alcyius> No, but I should be writing a paper right now
10:09 < Alcyius> I'm in my room, debating whether or not to take a shower
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10:10 < Alcyius> Why?
10:11 < fenn> elon musk was asked: "What daily habit do you believe has the largest positive impact on your life?"
10:11 < kanzure> it's a natural adult question once you hit the "old and cranky" age
10:11 < fenn> i was old and cranky when i was a kid
10:12 < kanzure> tell elon musk, "something about never realizing what other people mean by mental fatigue"
10:12 < fenn> mostly i was wondering if people in high school are able to hang out on IRC in class
10:13 < Alcyius> fenn, I'm only technically in high school though
10:13 < Alcyius> All my classes are at the local university
10:13 < kanzure> i was able to do that in some classes (based on ethernet port distance). school wifi was off-limits. and mobile pocket emergency keyboard wasn't invented yet.
10:13 < Alcyius> Even so, its finals week
10:15 < kanzure> hmm i am still unhappy with lack of papers on positron emission tomography of neuron activity
10:16 < fenn> isn't it really slow? like it takes 20 minutes per image
10:16 < FourFire> At secular solstice meetup now :D
10:17 < fenn> A miniature PE tomograph has been constructed that is small enough for a fully conscious and mobile rat to wear on its head while walking around.[21] This RatCAP (Rat Conscious Animal PET) allows animals to be scanned without the confounding effects of anesthesia.
10:19 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PET-MR2-Head-Keosys.JPG
10:20 < Alcyius> FourFire, are they playing Cthulhu Carols?
10:24 < nmz787_i> Alcyius: I read about the tobacco hormone project
10:25 < Alcyius> I find it pretty interesting
10:29 < kanzure> is that last link an image of ratcap-derived brain imaging??
10:32 < docl> fenn: it's a change in temperature, hence the deltaT in the equation on the wiki page. not a change in heat capacity, which would be deltaC
10:33 < docl> although I guess it does mention change in heat capacity where it is describing it later. hmm.
10:33 < docl> "Adiabatic magnetization: A magnetocaloric substance is placed in an insulated environment. The increasing external magnetic field (+H) causes the magnetic dipoles of the atoms to align, thereby decreasing the material's magnetic entropy and heat capacity. Since overall energy is not lost (yet) and therefore total entropy is not reduced (according to thermodynamic laws), the net result is that the subs
10:33 < docl> tance is heated (T + ΔTad)."
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10:34 < fenn> no the last image is just a random MRI+PET brain scan
10:34 < fenn> i had never seen one before
10:35 < docl> the change in heat capacity causes the change in temperature
10:35 < Alcyius> I hate being sick
10:35 < Alcyius> Even my eyes hurt
10:37 < fenn> alcyius take vitamin D
10:37 < fenn> 10,000 IU for starters
10:37 < Alcyius> Wish I had any vitamins around the house
10:38 < nmz787_i> being sick sucks
10:38 < kanzure> yea death to the pro-sick absolutists
10:38 < FourFire> Hey kanzure talked to a guy here, who wondered why there's no bitcoin assassination market for ISIS?
10:39 < fenn> "for ISIS"?
10:39 < Alcyius> Clarify: For members of ISIS, or for their targets?
10:39 < Alcyius> Or both?
10:40 < kanzure> assassination markets are sort of hard when there's only pseudonymity instead of anonymity in bitcoin transactions
10:40 < fenn> most criminals are not smart enough to use bitcoin
10:40 < nmz787_i> but surely they have infrastructure and backend support
10:41 < nmz787_i> those people would likely be the orchestrators
10:41 < nmz787_i> right?
10:41 < nmz787_i> or am I overestimating them?
10:41 < kanzure> "most criminals" are by definition going to be small-timers like pocket thieves or whatever, especially when a large >1% of the population is deemed criminal.
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10:42 < Alcyius> Also the definition of criminal is nebulous and dependent on the host society's morals
10:43 < fenn> a hired assassin
10:43 < kanzure> wait.. >1% might be wrong. looking.
10:44 < kanzure> i give up. i don't care. jail 'em all.
10:44 < FourFire> Alcyius, to target ISIS structure, to kill them off
10:46 < kanzure> i'm okay with talking about assassination markets but it's wrong to assume that it would only target one group of people...... i don't know where that's coming from.
10:47 < Alcyius> FourFire, I'd probably have to say that ISIS's chain of command is sketchy at best, and their location would make transport/verification difficult at best
10:48 < FourFire> Alcyius, of course, though I'd prefer if kanzure, who has more in depth knowledge about bitcoin to answer
10:48 < Alcyius> Fair enough
10:48 < kanzure> pretty sure someone got arrested for talking about assasination markets
10:48 < kanzure> jim bell
10:48 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_market#History
10:49 < Alcyius> GOD DAMNIT
10:50 < Alcyius> What is it about Ohio that drives people crazy
10:50 < Alcyius> He was born in my hometown
10:50 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bell
10:50 < kanzure> oh, hm, the government claimed it was about tax evasion
10:50 < Alcyius> and then harrassment of federal agents
10:50 < Alcyius> etc
10:51 < FourFire> > there might be people in france who would donate...
10:51 < fenn> its like how they charge you overdraft fees because you didn't immediately pay the overdraft fee because there was no money in your bank account
10:53 < kanzure> instead of plotting the murder of everyone (which, by the way, i hold that planetary destruction is the only legitimate method for doing so), better to focus on voluntary exit from current bullshit by extensive use of self-replicating tech tree libraries.
10:53 < FourFire> > at german festivity, have to ask whether I need to invoke godwin's law.
10:53 < FourFire> > I don't
10:53 < Alcyius> kanzure, better get that project started before we hit the multi-planetary stage
10:53 < kanzure> if you can blow one planet up then you can blow them all up
10:54 < fenn> "Bell also accepted responsibility for conducting a stinkbomb attack in the Vancouver IRS office"
10:54 < Alcyius> Yes, but by the time your death star gets to the next one
10:54 < Alcyius> They might've figured out how to destroy it
10:54 < kanzure> yea i am starting to think this has nothing to do with his assassination market essays :P
10:54 < Alcyius> Unless you abuse galactic politics to move halfway across the galaxy in half a second
10:54 < kanzure> you don't need a death star to destroy a planet....
10:54 < kanzure> kids these days, geeze
10:55 < Alcyius> It was a joke about a Galactic Civilization II playthrough
10:55 < fenn> back in the day we used fusion planet busters
10:55 < Alcyius> There was a law passed that when war was declared, enemy units were moved to the closest allied territory
10:55 < Alcyius> So he abused that to move his star destroyer to his enemy's home system
10:55 < Alcyius> In a single turn
11:01 < nmz787_i> yeah if people had some personal force field, we wouldn't have to worry as much about crazies
11:01 < nmz787_i> /me bullies approaching, activate shield!
11:02 < kanzure> better strategy would be to have multiple backups, at worst you would lose a few hours of your experience or something
11:02 < fenn> but what if they move the knife slowly
11:02 < kanzure> kung fu
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11:03 < Aurelius_Work2> hmmm
11:03 < Aurelius_Work2> I should pick up galciv3 at some point
11:06 < nmz787_i> well I would assume a force field would also keep air pressure (or the lack thereof) at bay
11:06 < kanzure> r2d2 died
11:06 < nmz787_i> so non-insulating space suit
11:07 < nmz787_i> well
11:07 < nmz787_i> maybe it would insulate
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11:09 < nmz787_i> hmm, they're giving away tickets at work the day I work from home
11:10 < kanzure> surpeme leader is played by the lincoln memorial
11:10 < nmz787_i> that sounds like that monkey/ape movie series
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12:05 < Diablo-D3> http://nautil.us/issue/31/stress/a-vaccine-for-depression
12:07 < fenn> ketamine is a powerful NMDA antagonist; its antidepressant activity would make sense if the quinolinic acid theory of depression were true
12:08 < Diablo-D3> tell m more about this quinolinic acid theory
12:08 < Diablo-D3> aaaand having looked it up on wikipedia, I wonder why I never heard of it before
12:09 < fenn> "The prefrontal cortices in the post-mortem brains of patients with major depression and bipolar depression contain increased levels quinolinic acid immunoreactivity compared to the brains of patients never having suffered from depression. ... By inducing increased levels of quinolinic acid in the cerebral spinal fluid with interferon α, researchers have demonstrated that increased quinolinic
12:09 < fenn> acid levels correlate with increased depressive symptoms."
12:09 < fenn> i just heard of it earlier today thanks to mister jrayhawk
12:09 < Diablo-D3> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolinic_acid
12:09 < Diablo-D3> just look at the contents table, section 5.2
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12:10 < Diablo-D3> _huh_, norharmane suppresses production
12:10 < Diablo-D3> aka beta carboline
12:11 < fenn> i don't like referring to ketamine as a "vaccine", it's imprecise and misleading
12:11 < Diablo-D3> yeah, thats nautilus
12:11 < fenn> yeah i was just reading about harmine
12:11 < fenn> apparently tobacco contains harmine
12:11 < Diablo-D3> their url segment shit hardly matches the final headline most of the time
12:11 < Diablo-D3> Ive looked into beta carbolines before
12:11 < Diablo-D3> very interesting shit
12:12 < Diablo-D3> mostly because of tryptoline
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12:13 < fenn> why tryptoline in particular?
12:14 < Diablo-D3> it plays a role in the dopamine family of weirdness
12:15 < fenn> based on my ten second reading of wikipedia it's just a MAOI and SSRI
12:18 < Diablo-D3> btw, I wonder what happened to 9-m-bc
12:18 < Diablo-D3> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2010.06725.x/full
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12:23 < nmz787_i> has anyone made a keyboard using full-body gesture detection, something that would end up looking like dance dance revolution except without a pad and using your arms and etc body parts? something that would basically give you a sustainable full-body excercise throughout the work day
12:24 < fenn> there are kinect apps i think
12:24 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk: I think you need to provide input on the best set of muscles to target ^
12:24 < nmz787_i> fenn: did you see the article about impedance tomography for gesture recognition?
12:24 < fenn> yes, "tomo" what a lame name
12:24 < nmz787_i> http://www.chrisharrison.net/index.php/Research/Tomo
12:24 < fenn> i like the idea though, it looks really simple and effective
12:24 < nmz787_i> yea
12:24 < nmz787_i> mm
12:25 < nmz787_i> nickjohnson_: was working with chips in that range of AD products
12:27 < nmz787_i> it seems like maybe ankles, thighs, wrists, bicep cuff... and maybe neck would be interesting inputs for an excercise keyboard
12:27 < nmz787_i> err
12:27 < nmz787_i> exercise
12:27 < nmz787_i> (using that tomo tech)
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13:03 < kanzure> there were some gesture motion user input projects on kickstarter, but they all looked too low-bandwidth for my interests
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13:25 < nmz787_i> kanzure: would you use a full-body keyboard?
13:25 < nmz787_i> not only do you need enough gestures to map to keys... you also need the ideal layout of the gesture-key map
13:25 < nmz787_i> you don't want the space bar being something like 'look down'
13:26 < nmz787_i> (with your neck, not eyes)
13:31 < kanzure> i would be okay with hand/arm gloves with lots and lots of accelerometers and other sensors.
13:32 < kanzure> peripheral nerve recording would also be nice, i guess. facial twitching could be a good supplement with typing.
13:33 < nmz787_i> I guess I've been worried about body health lately, as I have not been very physically active
13:33 < nmz787_i> other than typing
13:34 < nmz787_i> and it seems like it could be a better answer than a treadmill desk
13:34 < kanzure> -50 degree cryotherapy bath probably has okay muscle maintenance benefits
13:36 < nmz787_i> ctrl-alt-delete needs to be a very angry looking gesture
13:36 < nmz787_i> middle fingers up, with arms raised ?
13:37 < kanzure> increasing the physical exertion required to complete actions will only cause total action cost to be increased.... user interfaces should aim to be minimally invasive and have minimal energy gradients.
13:38 < kanzure> just take some steroids or something
13:38 < nmz787_i> not as accessible as impedance tomography parts
13:39 < nmz787_i> I wonder what someone would look like who could full-body type very fast
13:39 < nmz787_i> kung-fu?
13:39 < nmz787_i> karate?
13:39 < kanzure> probably would look like someone sitting very still
13:39 < nmz787_i> no
13:39 < nmz787_i> it wouldn't
13:40 < nmz787_i> it would look crazy
13:40 < nmz787_i> and the person my break a  sweat
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13:40 < nmz787_i> taking 'agile' coding to a new level
13:41 < nmz787_i> this would be the only way to fight off your space fortress while still at the same time programming sudo make-me-a-sandwich
13:45 < fenn> nmz try sitting on a yoga ball instead of a chair
13:45 < fenn> also you could ... exercise
13:46 < kanzure> develop an unhealthy appreciation for pacing
13:46 < fenn> snort adderall as part of your morning regimen
13:47 < kanzure> for exercise ?
13:47 < fenn> to induce pacing
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13:59 < jrayhawk> fenn: did you come to any interesting conclusions on reading more into the corticosteroid resistance literature
13:59 < fenn> i haven't
13:59 < fenn> read anything that is
14:08 < jrayhawk> ah, okay
14:12 < jrayhawk> inflammation->intestinal dominance of serotonin utilization/kynurenine diversion to quinolinic acid, corticosteroid resistance, thyroid/hypothalamic downregulation->depression is reasonably neat accounting for the neurochemical changes typically seen
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14:13 < fenn> i thought it would be corticosteroid resistance first that leads to inflammation
14:14 < fenn> anyway biology is messy
14:14 < jrayhawk> limiting cranial serotonin limits production of melatonin
14:14 < jrayhawk> so, yes, both ways would be valid
14:15 < fenn> so sleep deprivation is what leads to stress? (in the way you first phrased it)
14:15 < jrayhawk> probably the fastest way to do so, yes
14:16 < jrayhawk> at least, from reasonably expected environmental factors
14:16 < kanzure> joey why have you never tried to fix fenn's sleep issues
14:16 < jrayhawk> fenn is more motivated than i am to investigate them
14:16 < fenn> i'm all investigated out
14:16 < kanzure> "he's more motivated" is not a good excuse, actually
14:16 < jrayhawk> and probably equivalently qualified
14:17 < kanzure> qualification is bullshit
14:17 < jrayhawk> in this case "is literate and understand how to use google"
14:17 < kanzure> but you know about the weirdness in this context right?
14:18 < jrayhawk> i don't think so
14:18 < kanzure> i sort of assume all the symptoms are obvious but i suppose nobody really stalks people like i do :p
14:18 < fenn> ?
14:18 < kanzure> s/assume/assumed
14:18 < jrayhawk> i remember seeing fenn's sleep charts and seeing a lot of drift
14:18 < kanzure> well, for example, he might not be aware of your non-24 stuff
14:18 < kanzure> "a lot of drift" is sorta understatement?
14:19 < fenn> free running sleep
14:19 < fenn> we prefer the term "differently sleepled"
14:19 < jrayhawk> AFAIK human isolated from light cycles will pretty typically wind up running their cycles a little long
14:20 < kanzure> i would also submit that, the level of data that fenn has collected about this, is so ridiculously huge and the effort he has put into figuring out has been high enough to warrant at least some objection better than "he is more motivated" heh...
14:20 < jrayhawk> figuring what out
14:20 < kanzure> maybe i'm not having the conversation i think i'm having
14:21 < fenn> well i'm pretty dysfunctional at 'life'
14:21 < kanzure> this is not "i'm lazy and haven't figured this out yet"
14:21 < fenn> i attribute a lot of it to not being able to make appointments or have regular meetings with people/groups
14:22 < kanzure> i doubt that motivation is the missing ingredient; more likely that fenn is inadvertedly missing some details about biology or something.
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14:23 < jrayhawk> have you tried basic stuff like taking melatonin on an alarm or manipulating SCN timing by triggering photosensitive ganglia with full-spectrum lighting and/or amber goggles
14:24 < fenn> yes and yes
14:24 < kanzure> yeah i had no idea joey was so underinformed on this
14:24 < jrayhawk> what were the results
14:24 < fenn> as far as i can tell lighting has no effect whatsoever on me
14:24 < fenn> melatonin does actually affect my sleep schedule but it's hard to get it to kick in at the right time so the effects are unpredictable
14:25 < fenn> it's worse than unhelpful if you take melatonin to get to sleep and it makes you sleep in 6 hours
14:25 < fenn> i was only taking 0.5mg
14:26 < fenn> people here keep telling me to look at what metamed recommended for yudkowsky (who coincidentally has the same problem) which is to take melatonin in the middle of the day
14:26 < jrayhawk> durrr?
14:26 < jrayhawk> what was the justification for that
14:26 < fenn> i don't know
14:26 < fenn> but apparently it worked for him
14:27 < jrayhawk> so the other half of the circadian rhythm is the cortisol cycle, which i haven't looked into much
14:27 < fenn> i thought there were like 4 clocks
14:27 < jrayhawk> "adrenal fatigue" is a fascinating field because nobody can agree on what it means or how it works or how to treat what elements of it
14:28 < jrayhawk> but a failure to produce cortisol is a good way to accidently sleep in six hours
14:28 < fenn> i thought i was absorbing the melatonin at the wrong time because i had eaten dinner with a lot of protein
14:29 < jrayhawk> some intestinal receptor competition? i am not familiar with how that works for melatonin.
14:29 < fenn> just gastric emptying
14:30 < fenn> i guess i should try to do melatonin experiments again
14:30 < jrayhawk> doesn't seem like timing should be all that sensitive; the goal is to average a 24 hour cycle, i would assume, not exactly hit it with precision
14:31 < fenn> no, it's important to have precise timing with melatonin
14:31 < fenn> look at the phase response curve
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14:32 < jrayhawk> GABA supplementation helps some folks, too, but I have to wonder if that's undesirable BBB permeability variability
14:32 < fenn> i hate gaba and all gabaergics
14:35 < jrayhawk> bad reaction?
14:35 < fenn> i have no real reason to wake up early in the morning, so it's hard to just stop doing productive interesting stuff and whack my brain with a GABA mallet until i fall unconscious
14:36 < fenn> it just makes me feel stupid and tired and sit on the floor and do nothing
14:36 < jrayhawk> yeah, i have the same problem
14:36 < jrayhawk> well, not with the sitting and doing nothing
14:37 < fenn> i used to get anxiety but magnesium supplementation totally stopped that
14:37 < jrayhawk> but the flipped circadian rhythm making me vastly more mentally active at night
14:37 < fenn> i can see how gaba might help people with crippling anxiety
14:37 < jrayhawk> some mammals flip circadian rhythms in response to environmental stressors
14:41 < fenn> having gone without it for so long, i tend to underestimate the importance of regular face to face social interaction, and just assume that i could accomplish X without it if i had the right intervention, but that may not be true
14:42 < fenn> most people get up and go to work every day and have people with expectations for whether X is done yet or have you made progress on Y (yak shaving leading to X)
14:42 < kanzure> cortisol resistance could be an interesting explanation (or low cortisol production? something cortisol).
14:43 < kanzure> anyway your stress response is basically "hmm i wonder what nist.gov says about the fundamental constants involved in this problem".
14:43 < fenn> well i do tend to overreact to stressful events
14:43 < kanzure> .. not that this is bad. just probably related to cortisol something.
14:43 < fenn> internally at least
14:43 < fenn> better with magnesium now
14:44 < fenn> much less devastating recovery period
14:44 < kanzure> anxiety/overreaction is not sufficient explanation. lots of people are extremely anxious in all sorts of interesting ways, without this sort of sleep problem.
14:44 < fenn> yeah the sleep problem has been going on for much longer, since puberty probably
14:46 < kanzure> seems unlikely to be environmental stressor. you tend to vary those somewhat often. and you have iterated through a bunch of either diets or supplement sequences.
14:47 < fenn> .wik chiari malformation
14:47 < yoleaux> "Chiari malformation, also known as Arnold–Chiari malformation, is a condition affecting the brain. It consists of a downward displacement of the cerebellar tonsils through the foramen magnum (the opening at the base of the skull), sometimes causing non-communicating hydrocephalus as a result of obstruction of cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) outflow." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiari_malformation
14:47 < fenn> it would be easy to exclude this particular hypothesis with an MRI, but those bastards won't let me
14:48 < kanzure> that's what medical tourism is for, these days.
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14:49 < kanzure> i don't recall how much blood/hormone testing you have done
14:50 < fenn> in 2013 the standard blood tests all looked normal. i didn't do any specific tests
14:51 < fenn> thyroid and testosterone were included
14:53 < kanzure> apparently, when other people get tired, they have lowered mental faculties. does this hold for you as well?
14:53 < jrayhawk> kanzure: corticosteroid resistance is limited to the immune-suppression effects and not to the gluconeogenesis-inducing effects
14:53 < fenn> yes, if all my clocks are synched
14:54 < fenn> synched with each other
14:58 < nmz787_i> can we form an intentional-community IRL?
14:58 < nmz787_i> I am fine if it is not a short-term plan
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14:59 < kanzure> like somewhere in the desert?
14:59 < jrayhawk> voting for missle silo
14:59 < jrayhawk> underground bunkers also accepted
15:00 < fenn> would you settle for a submarine pen
15:00 < jrayhawk> moisture would be bad for servers, i suspect
15:01 < kanzure> why would you have moisture on the inside?
15:01 < fenn> because of the ocean
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15:01 < kanzure> i'm not following
15:02 < kanzure> how does nmz787 not know about the desert cult that indoctrinated me?
15:02 < fenn> http://stour-crimea.com/%3Cp%3ENEW!!!%3C/p%3E/balaklava-submarine-pens-tour-experience-of-the-cold-war-54.html
15:04 < kanzure> do naps shift your schedule?
15:04 < fenn> i don't do naps
15:04 < nmz787_i> well this is for sale, and is close enough to decent amounts of civilization and ports and such: http://www.themissilebase.com/
15:05 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk:  and I could tour it for $100 plus gas
15:07 < nmz787_i> looks like it would be about 7 hours drive from here, one way
15:07 < nmz787_i> I thought it was more like 3
15:08 < jrayhawk> yeah, the downside is that running fiber out there would probably cost an extra 100k
15:08 < fenn> is this in the "dry shitties" tri-cities area?
15:08 < nmz787_i> oh, no, 5:10
15:09 < nmz787_i> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hillsboro,+OR/47.11187+,+-118.491049/@47.4432085,-120.4124963,8z/data=!4m12!4m11!1m5!1m1!1s0x5495055f56bce579:0x7d29ff866a33ed86!2m2!1d-122.989827!2d45.5228939!1m3!2m2!1d-118.491049!2d47.11187!3e0
15:09 < nmz787_i> this is in the ice-dam-flood plain
15:09 < jrayhawk> I kind want to tour Hanford sometime
15:09 < nmz787_i> I'm up for that
15:11 < jrayhawk> our nations proudest, most terrifying industrial wasteland
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15:13 < kanzure> fenn: as far as social scheduling is concerned, why not just schedule everything 2-3 weeks out based on predicted schedule.
15:13 < kanzure> oh right, the frequency is all wrong
15:14 < fenn> usually people meet for social groups "tuesdays at 6 pm" or something like that
15:14 < kanzure> sure. so in a 7 week period i think you could make at least 1.2 of those.
15:14 < fenn> if i'm actually interested i end up making it there 20% of the time
15:15 < jrayhawk> i have a lot of scheduling problems, too, but nobody seems to mind
15:15 < jrayhawk> i guess they assume unstable schedules come with the territory
15:15 < kanzure> your sleep is not unstable.
15:16 < kanzure> sure you have a flipped schedule every once in a while.. but at least you're consistent.
15:16 < jrayhawk> i mean even stuff like business meetings are usually a vague "i will probably call you sometime in the afternoon to see if i can drop in" because actually hitting times reliably is very hard on me
15:17 < kanzure> well meetings are dumb anyway
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15:31 < kanzure> so, i think that the problem with the brain uploading approach as described is that the funding needed seems somewhat difficult to acquire due to lack of interim revenue.
15:31 < kanzure> brain banking could bring in revenue long before brain uploading software stuff is working
15:32 < kanzure> but brain banking stuff is presumably delayed by neuroscience community buy-in
15:33 < kanzure> perfusion machine and perfusion analytics and related tooling might be an okay temporary revenue source, but VCs would probably only fund that with a prototype receiving pre-orders.
15:34 < kanzure> and VCs are not particularly excited to fund stuff that starts with "okay so we are going to need to operate a corporate lab for 2 years to flesh out the exact details".
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16:00 < archels> .wik transhumance
16:00 < yoleaux> "Transhumance is the seasonal movement of people with their livestock between fixed summer and winter pastures. In montane regions (vertical transhumance), it implies movement between higher pastures in summer and lower valleys in winter. Herders have a permanent home, typically in valleys." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumance
16:03 < kanzure> archels: electron or even expansion microscopy to count the number of vesicles near a synapse? yes/no
16:04 < archels> electron, certainly
16:04  * archels eyes upwards
16:05 < kanzure> and do you think vesicle counting would be useful for inferring synaptic weight and regulatory network status for a certain neuron/dendrite/etc/
16:05 < kanzure> *etc?
16:05 < kanzure> see near 17:58 http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-16.log
16:06 < archels> well if even cryogenics has such a hard time taking off, I predict worse for brain banks
16:06 < kanzure> goal wasn't brain banking, just brain uploading
16:06 < kanzure> "just" :-)
16:06 < archels> who is this that you're quoting there in the logs?
16:07 < kanzure> aurellem
16:07 < archels> fully verified? how? by running the simulation and interacting with it?
16:08 < archels> the cynic in me predicts dilution of the term verification
16:08 < kanzure> first, physical verification by comparing vitrified vs unvitrified samples, second by electrophysiology characterization
16:08 < archels> shoot, he was here? how did I miss this
16:08 < kanzure> well, he is not claiming already-successful verification
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16:13 < archels> his MEng work looks neat
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16:49 < nmz787_i> are vesicle locations important?
16:49 < nmz787_i> aren't they always in flux?
16:49 < nmz787_i> or is that how you'd determine neuronal weights?
16:49 < nmz787_i> (by relative presence of vesicles)
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19:59 < kanzure> nmz787: well it's not just weight that you need to determine but also things like... responses across spectrum of neurotransmitters, neurohormones, etc.
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20:18 < kanzure> spoiler: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSSTdD5WwAEzy2G.jpg
20:32 < CautiousNarwhal> lol
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21:16 < erasmus> looks like a Cymek Titan
21:17 < AdrianG> wtf u here too
21:17 < AdrianG> i need to come up with a membership-only irc channels. paid by bitcoin.
21:18 < erasmus>  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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21:52 < kanzure> 20:01 <erasmus> can you remove my ban please?
21:52 < kanzure> 20:01 <kanzure> why?
21:52 < kanzure> 20:01 <erasmus> I don't like knowing it's there.
21:52 < kanzure> 20:02 <kanzure> any other reason?
21:52 < kanzure> 20:02 <erasmus> nope
21:53 < AdrianG> i have to award points for honesty
21:53 < erasmus> ?
21:53  * erasmus is watching a movie
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22:04 < ebowden> What did erasmus do to be banned?
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 19 00:00:41 2015