--- Log opened Mon Dec 28 00:00:49 2015
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00:11 < xentrac> hmm, if you were squirting binder into a powder bed at 1200 dpi, you could get an insert printed point-up to have a 20-micron-wide edge
00:11 < xentrac> I think that's probably sharp enough to cut metal
00:11 < xentrac> the surface finish might not be good enough though
00:12 < xentrac> it might be after you densify it in a furnace for a while though
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00:52 < FourFire> justanotheruser, if you don't need loads of bandwidth for your GPU cluster, just compute, check out:http://amfeltec.com/products/gpu-oriented-cluster/
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01:29 < justanotheruser> FourFire: That is useful if I want to use the capital to buy GPUs :)
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05:12 < jrayhawk_> Alcyius: that was a good article, thank you for that article
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05:50 < FAMAS> greetings all. has anyone in this channel performed research and hobbyist activity regarding file archiving?
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05:59 < JayDugger> Not personally, no, but I think that topic has come and gone in the past.
05:59 < JayDugger> You might check the logs first.
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06:05 < FAMAS> this user recommends the utilization of the paq and bulkzip algorithms for file archiving at maximum possible compression and recommends them being utilized to store the channel logs
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06:37 < eudoxia> >BulkZip is a commercial file archiver...
06:37 < eudoxia> >commercial
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08:00 < kanzure> various math books from springer https://gist.github.com/bishboria/8326b17bbd652f34566a
08:04 < kanzure> "popper's philosophy of science: looking ahead" (2007) http://petergodfreysmith.com/PGSonPopper.pdf
08:04 < kanzure> "eliminative inference"
08:11 < kanzure> this document says popper had a constraint regarding deductive consistency. that seems like a reasonable thing to impose...
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08:40 < esmerelda> Sweet, thanks kanzure
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09:51 < eudoxia> huh
09:51 < eudoxia> some guy forked NanoEngineer a while ago
09:51 < eudoxia> http://sourceforge.net/projects/moleculardynami/
09:51 < eudoxia> http://moleculardynamicsstudio.blogspot.com/
09:51 < eudoxia> cc kanzure
09:54 < kanzure> yep i was aware
10:07 < FourFire> Thanks for that article Alcyius (Damn, I need to rethink how to eliminate mensturation)
10:10 < FourFire> Hrrhm... I'm going to have to rethink my strategy entirely here, maybe even have to delay this project until after my longterm one is well underway
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10:34 < xentrac> what was alycius's article? I think I missed it when my host went offline
10:36 < kanzure> at the bottom of http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-27.log
10:37 < xentrac> oh, sorry. thanks!
10:38 < xentrac> oh, yes, I read that one when it was on Quora
10:38 < xentrac> I think it's been improved slightly
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10:53 < kanzure> "Prebiotic intake reduces the waking cortisol response and alters emotional bias in healthy volunteers" http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00213-014-3810-0
10:53 < kanzure> "The salivary cortisol awakening response was significantly lower after B-GOS intake compared with placebo. Participants also showed decreased attentional vigilance to negative versus positive information in a dot-probe task after B-GOS compared to placebo intake."
10:54 < kanzure> (B-GOS is "bimuno-galactooligosaccharides")
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11:07 < xentrac> fenn: it occurred to me after my client went offline that if you're inkjet-printing binder into a powder bed, if the cutting point is vertical (i.e. perpendicular to the surface of the bed), 1200 dpi lets you make a cutting point that's 20 microns sharp
11:08 < xentrac> 20 microns would be terrible for scissors or shaving but I wonder if it might be adequate for lathe bits.  probably not, eh?
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11:34 < docl> wouldn't it be easier to use a grinder to polish up the lathe bits once you have the general form?
11:35 < xentrac> people do do that
11:35 < xentrac> apparently there are a couple of difficulties
11:35 < xentrac> one is that things like chip-breakers are concave enough that they can be tricky
11:36 < xentrac> another is that grinding wheels that can grind corundum are expensive.  carbide not so much
11:36 < docl> lasers is my next suggestion. but concave might defeat that too.
11:39 < FourFire> I'm thinking of getting noise reduction earplugs with passthrough: that is they uniformly make all sounds quieter, has anyone here experimented with noise reduction; optimal reduction in decibels?
11:40 < FourFire> I can get from 10 dB to 26 dB reduction according to this site, I'm thinking 20dB might be suitable, 12.5% sound volume and I can always take them out when I need to listen, but otherwise my hearing should be decently protected
11:40 < FourFire> does anyone have input (i really don't know about this sort of thing)
11:41 < xentrac> where does the 12.5% come from?
11:42 < xentrac> musicians do worry a bit about flat frequency response from their earplugs but I don't know what they recommend
11:42 < xentrac> unfortunately all earplugs have some frequencies they barely attenuate
11:43 < docl> xentrac: is it difficult to diamond-coat things? the chart we were looking at actually lists cvd as a moderate range of vacuum
11:43 < FourFire> dB scale is logrithmic, at +5 dB = doubling of energy intensity so -20dB should be = 1/8 of initial energy
11:44 < xentrac> FourFire: oh, no, your logarithmic base is wrong
11:44 < FourFire> xentrac, someone who I believe not to be a fool recommends these.
11:44 < FourFire> xentrac, oh right :/
11:44 < FourFire> I'll be back, have to pick up my bed
11:46 < xentrac> 20dB will keep your sound levels safe until the outside level is about 100dB, which is what you get when you're running a jackhammer
11:46 < docl> CVD production of diamonds has received a great deal of attention in the materials sciences because it allows many new applications of diamonds that had previously been considered too difficult to make economical. CVD diamond growth typically occurs under low pressure (1–27 kPa; 0.145–3.926 psi; 7.5-203 Torr) and involves feeding varying amounts of gases into a chamber, energizing them and providin
11:46 < docl> g conditions for diamond growth on the substrate.
11:46 < docl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_vapor_deposition#Diamond
11:47 < docl> Sprengel pump can get to that level of vacuum easy.
11:50 < eudoxia> i'm surprised this is the largest CVD diamond that has been made https://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/national/worlds-largest-man-made-diamond-debuts-in-nyc/2015/02/12/27252a02-b2f3-11e4-bf39-5560f3918d4b_video.html
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12:48 < kanzure> dustin trammell is running ads on austin-area fm radio for his bodyhacking/bodymod conference, heard it a few minutes ago when i started the car
12:48 < kanzure> based on his hiring and stuff, i'm p. confident he cashed out a lot of his bitcoin a long time ago
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13:13 < docl> xentrac: looks like sodium silicate is a cheap chemical that you can buy online fairly easily. http://www.amazon.com/Rutland-146-Cement-Sealer-Fireplace/dp/B004YEDQOK
13:16 < catern> xentrac: hey
13:16 < catern> your name is almost an anagram of mine
13:16 < catern> good show
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13:21 < xentrac> docl: yes, sodium silicate is very cheap and in the US it can be bought online fairly easily.  In Argentina I am still looking for a source
13:22 < xentrac> docl: yes, CVD diamond is really interesting, but I don't know to make it.  I mean I don't know what else is involved other than a medium vacuum
13:27 < docl> medium vacuum, carbon source (say methane), and maybe electrical charge on the deposition site, I'm guessing?
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13:27 < xentrac> if it were that simple then diamond-coated toolbits would have been common in the 1920s
13:28 < xentrac> I mean people did start making artificial diamonds not too far after that, so it wasn't that they didn't realize it was possible, and of course diamond abrasives had long been of immense industrial importance
13:29 < xentrac> but my memory is that CVD diamond coatings didn't become common until fairly recently, like 20 years ago
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13:45 < Alcyius> FourFire, jrayhawk_, you're welcome
13:46 < xentrac> Alcyius: it really is an awesome article
13:46 < xentrac> thank you for sharing it :)
13:46 < Alcyius> I found it while browsing /r/childfree
13:46 < Alcyius> :P
13:46 < Alcyius> And I thought you guys would like it
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13:50 < archels> the preganancy thing on aeon?
13:50 < Alcyius> yeah
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13:55 < jrayhawk_> re: prebiotics: a lot of that depends on particular contexts, but broadly speaking hydrogen-yielding and methane-yielding (e.g. most GOS and most polyol products) reactions tend to be more pathological, where butyrate-yielding (resistant starch, polysaccharide) reactions tend to be more beneficial.
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14:23 < docl> http://www.gia.edu/news-research-CVD-grown-part1
14:23 < docl> The CVD process is quite different from natural diamond formation. It produces diamond from a heated mixture of a hydrocarbon gas (typically methane) and hydrogen in a vacuum chamber at very low pressures. Under normal circumstances, heating this mixture at such low pressures would produce graphite or some other non-diamond form of carbon. But in a CVD growth chamber, some of the hydrogen is converted
14:23 < docl> to atomic hydrogen, which promotes diamond formation since diamond is more stable in this environment. The conversion of molecular hydrogen to atomic hydrogen is accomplished through methods such as the application of microwave energy, an electric discharge, or hot filaments.
14:24 < docl> When atomic hydrogen is present in the gas phase, two chemical processes occur:
14:24 < docl> (1) Graphite and other non-diamond carbon react with the atomic hydrogen and evaporate in a newly formed gas phase.
14:24 < docl> (2) Atomic hydrogen reacts with the original hydrocarbon gas (methane) to form a highly reactive carbon-hydrogen species. When this species decomposes, it gives up its hydrogen to form pure carbon: diamond.
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15:18 < docl> https://www.onlineamd.com/FileUploads/File/Whitepapers/Crystallume_White%20Paper.pdf
15:18 < docl> http://www.chm.bristol.ac.uk/pt/diamond/pdf/end.pdf
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15:49 < Alcyius> The Four White Suburban Soccer Moms of the Apocalypse
15:50 < Alcyius> Disease is an antivaxxer, Famine is an insane, over the top diet nut, War is the "I want to speak to your manager", and Death is head of the homeowner's association and has a bunch of plastic surgery
15:51 < kanzure> is this what school is having you spend time on?
15:52 < Alcyius> I'm on break
15:56 < docl> xentrac: the way they describe it in those papers it sounds really easy. there is some temperature control and/or rf stuff, but seems to be mostly a matter of a low pressure CH4/H2 atmosphere. the hydrogen tends to break down the non-diamond stuff.
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16:38 < docl> Oh, here we go. The temperature needed for diamond CVD is in the 1000-1400K range.
16:38 < docl> While each method differs in detail, they all share features in common. For example, growth of diamond (rather than deposition of other, less well-defined forms of carbon) normally requires that the substrate be maintained at a temperature in the range lOOO-14OOK, and that the precursor gas be diluted in an excess of hydrogen (typical CH, mixing ratio -1-2 ~01%).
16:41 < xentrac> you do make it sound pretty simple!
16:42 < xentrac> I think "atomic hydrogen" is H, not H₂
16:42 < xentrac> H₂ isn't going to react with methane or graphite much if at all, even at 1400K
16:43 < xentrac> but H seems pretty likely to
16:43 < docl> the bristol doc showed h2 in the diagram for some reason. maybe it gets split by the heat or something?
16:44 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@jasonschmitt/can-t-disrupt-this-elsevier-and-the-25-2-billion-dollar-a-year-academic-publishing-business-aa3b9618d40a#.sizpjoixr
16:44 < kanzure> huh.... $25 billion is more than i expected. this will be harder to convince bill gates or zuckerberg to buy.
16:45 < xentrac> I don't think atomic hydrogen is going to last very long at anything less than a high vacuum
16:46 < xentrac> so maybe you feed in H₂ and your hot filament or microwave-pumped plasma or whatever breaks it up into H (and H+ and H- probably)
16:47 < xentrac> it would be nice to look at a paper containing a methods section reporting one a CVD experiment
16:47 < kanzure> "The push toward open access is not only growing in sheer numbers of journals but also in an increasingly confrontational strategy that academics leverage against large publishers. “At the moment, the Netherlands, the whole country, has said to Elsevier that we want all of our researchers to be able to publish open access in your journals at the same rates we would pay for a subscription last year and if you can’t do that we’re ...
16:47 < kanzure> ... going to cancel every one of your journals, for all of our universities nationwide,” says Eve. “They have a few days left to resolve this, and it looks like they are going to cancel all the Elsevier journals.”"
16:47 < kanzure> awesome.
16:48 < xentrac> that's fantastic
16:48 < Diablo-D3> nice
16:48 < xentrac> what would be even better would be if they took away the Elsevier trademark, which is stolen from one of the most illustrious presses of the Renaissance
16:49 < Diablo-D3> Im not even sure why an entire country is even dealing with them
16:49 < kanzure> inertia
16:49 < Diablo-D3> What is Elsevier going to do, sue them?
16:50 < Diablo-D3> Seriously, if I was an entire country, I'd just not pay them, and publish the entire library of their journals every month or whenever they come out
16:50 < Diablo-D3> as a PDF or something
16:50 < Diablo-D3> and just distribute that
16:50 < Diablo-D3> pass a law stating that scientific research can't be paywalled like that
16:50 < Diablo-D3> Elsevier can't sue, its the law
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16:51 < kanzure> there are other international laws that countries have to abide by, it's how the world patent office happened.
16:51 < xentrac> there's a world patent office?
16:51 < xentrac> .wik world patent office
16:51 < yoleaux> "A patent office is a governmental or intergovernmental organization which controls the issue of patents. In other words, "patent offices are government bodies that may grant a patent or reject the patent application based on whether the application fulfils the requirements for patentability."" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_office
16:51 < Diablo-D3> yes, its a disgusting mistake
16:52 < xentrac> maybe you mean the PCT?
16:52 < Diablo-D3> patents in one country are now valid in other countries due to global trade agreements
16:52 < xentrac> no, that is not true
16:53 < kanzure> i think that academic publishers are going to start requiring journal editors (and other members) to sign non-compete agreements (which thankfully are not valid in some jurisdictions).
16:53 < xentrac> in general
16:53 < xentrac> maybe the EPO is an exception
16:53 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: US and EU seem to have one
16:53 < kanzure> the attrition method of academic journals switching to open access seems to be the popular (and only) trend
16:53 < xentrac> Diablo-D3: no, they do nt
16:53 < xentrac> not
16:53 < kanzure> it requires the editors to all agree at the same time to close up shop and open up another journal instead
16:53 < xentrac> also there is no world patent office
16:54 < kanzure> i guess this will only work when there's an actual group of editors or whatever, running the journal
16:54 < kanzure> in the case of nature.com i think it's much more corporate
16:54 < Diablo-D3> nature.com doesn't seem to cock up stuff, though
16:54 < kanzure> that's not what this is about
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16:55 < Diablo-D3> Well, from what I understand of the story, it isn't totally about closed access
16:55 < xentrac> however, the Netherlands is bound by the copyright treaties it has signed, which include the Berne Convention, Diablo-D3
16:55 < Diablo-D3> its about Elsevier publishing papers that have no scientific validity, and dismissing anyone questioning the validity of those papers
16:56 < xentrac> and Elsevier certainly could sue them
16:56 < Diablo-D3> ergo, without open access, there is no way to hold Elsevier accountable
16:56 < xentrac> also that is nonsense
16:56 < xentrac> there is no issue of "Elsevier publishing papers that have no scientific validity"
16:56 < Diablo-D3> I dunno, thats the way I've seen it played out in the press.
16:56 < xentrac> nor is open access necessary to "hold Elsevier accountable"
16:57  * Diablo-D3 shrugs
16:57 < Diablo-D3> Like I said, thats how the press has handled it
16:57 < xentrac> that at last is a statement that might at least be partly true
16:58 < xentrac> while I haven't seen any articles that could be described as anything remotely like the way you are describing the situation, it's entirely possible that some uninformed journalist somewhere has published such a confused article
16:59 < Diablo-D3> well, more than one journalist have, and they've hit the top of HN before.
16:59 < Diablo-D3> *has
16:59 < kanzure> "The Center for Open Science, which provides seed funds to startups in the academic scientific research space, is led by Nosek and focuses on aligning scientific values to scientific practices"
16:59 < xentrac> I have not seen any such articles on HN, although that does not mean that no such thing has happened
17:00 < kanzure> yes the international copyright treaties are insidious
17:00 < kanzure> yes, the issue is not about elsevier publishing invalid stuff. afaik elsevier does retractions in a timely manner, and seems to get rid of bad journals over time. i think.
17:01 < kanzure> "how the press handles stuff" is completely meaningless; the press is absurd and often doesn't report on reality.
17:01 < Diablo-D3> since I don't publish papers nor subscribe to any journal, then the press is the only way I get to know about this stuff
17:02 < xentrac> even if they didn't, publishing sloppy research is usually not the kind of thing academics or national governments organize to take action over
17:03 < xentrac> there are any number of journals of astrology, numerology, reiki, homeopathy, traditional Chinese medicine, etc., and they generally remain unmolested
17:03 < Diablo-D3> but who publishes them?
17:03 < xentrac> you can google if you like. I don't know
17:04 < xentrac> I would know if national governments were going around issuing ultimatums to their publishers though
17:04 < xentrac> anyway http://www.chm.bristol.ac.uk/pt/diamond/pdf/end.pdf is a lot more interesting than typing as fast as I can to correct whatever nonsense pops into your head at the moment, Diablo-D3
17:05 < xentrac> as I recall you still haven't figured out the lifetime expectancy of plaster-of-Paris refractories
17:06 < Diablo-D3> its not that I havent figured it out, its that it wasn't interesting to me
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17:06 < xentrac> you were the one that brought it up!
17:06 < Diablo-D3> no, I was basically passing through a question by someone else.
17:07 < Diablo-D3> and it was more of a yes or no question than anything
17:10 < kanzure> xentrac: it's too bad that academic journal reputation is so closely tied to career metrics.
17:10 < xentrac> docl: an interesting thing about this paper is that it mentions that CVD diamond substrates are fairly limited
17:10 < xentrac> kanzure: yeah, it would be better if we had a better system for that
17:11 < kanzure> so one idea i have is to make a small web tool to help academic journal contributors anonymously consent to moving the journal to an open access model
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17:11 < kanzure> and then other insiders can see how many people have agreed out of the toal
17:11 < xentrac> good idea
17:11 < kanzure> this way they can have a safe way to express their opinion or desire
17:11 < kanzure> and then when there's critical mass (whatever they judge that to be) they can flip the switch and go public, or receive volunteer help to transition the journal etc
17:12 < kanzure> i think that the publishers are, in fact, providing some services to these journals and editor groups or peer review groups. but the services are relatively minor. still, they have to be fulfilled somehow.
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17:13 < xentrac> docl: can't do aluminum or soda-lime or borosilicate glass (they melt), can't do iron or cobalt (too reactive with the diamond, same reason you don't cut steel with diamond), so you're almost stuck with substrates like silicon, molybdenum, tungsten, and their carbides
17:13 < kanzure> heh i guess the site could dump the data in the hands of open-access publishers or something, e.g. sell the data and let open access publishers compete for the business of the journal that is thinking about switching
17:14 < xentrac> kanzure: the publishers are mostly rent-seeking.  it's the same thing as some guy whose grandfather built his house on a particular street corner which has now become a bustling urban center
17:14 < xentrac> the guy can charge Starbucks an arm and a leg to set up shop there because he has a legal title to the place
17:15 < xentrac> (an arm and a leg per month: Mayhem Coffee)
17:15 < kanzure> hmm nevermind, i don't think that journal editors are missing out on a way to talk with each other about going open-access or switching publishers
17:15 < xentrac> no, not really :)
17:15 < kanzure> they are already in communication with each other
17:15 < xentrac> it's kind of their job
17:15 < xentrac> in fact they're the best in the world at it
17:16 < xentrac> that's why they're journal editors and department chairs and shit
17:16 < xentrac> they just don't care that much because their libraries already have subscriptions
17:16 < xentrac> unless Elsevier tightens the screws too much
17:17 < xentrac> docl: oh, and things that are too *unreactive* with the diamond, like sapphire, gold, germanium, and surprisingly diamond
17:17 < docl> can't use it to grind aluminum oxide stuff?
17:18 < xentrac> oh, sorry
17:18 < xentrac> I mean you can't use aluminum oxide as the substrate
17:18 < xentrac> the diamonds don't nucleate
17:18 < xentrac> apparently
17:18 < docl> ah, that makes more sense
17:19 < xentrac> you know, there's probably a big market for a CVD diamond-coating machine to deposite a diamond coating on whatever bit you've just custom ground out of titanium carbide
17:20 < xentrac> I mean maybe not that huge because it is only helpful for when you're cutting nonferrous materials
17:20 < xentrac> but there are shops that cut nonferrous metals a lot
17:22 < docl> well, if you can cut aluminum oxide into custom shapes, you can use that on the ferrous stuff.
17:23 < xentrac> yeah, I don't know why people use titanium carbide instead of aluminum oxide for cutting tools sometimes
17:23 < xentrac> well, almost all the time actually
17:24 < docl> I wonder though, doesn't the ferrous caveat apply only above certain temperatures? for our purposes, might be enough to do it in a cold bath or something. diamond is a super thermally conductive substance.
17:24 < xentrac> I suspect it's a matter of toughness
17:25 < xentrac> yes, but cutting metal with a toolbit actually involves melting it at the fracture propagation point
17:25 < xentrac> I don't know if that's inevitable
17:25 < xentrac> or just makes things work a lot better
17:26 < xentrac> I mean I think you can file or hacksaw metal at arbitrarily slow speeds and I'm not sure that the process continues to involve melting
17:26 < xentrac> but machinists check the iridescence color of the oxide layer on the chips to see if they are getting hot enough for optimal cutting speed and tool life
17:28 < xentrac> I guess I should emphasize that my experience cutting metal with machine tools is roughly two weekend classes at the Crucible
17:28 < xentrac> so I am very open to correction if I am misinterpreting the machining videos I watch on YouTube
17:29 < xentrac> heh, http://www.chm.bristol.ac.uk/pt/diamond/pdf/end.pdf also suggests that diamond-cathode vacuum tubes could not only replace LCDs but also "form the basis of an ultra-fast switch"
17:30 < xentrac> I guess because, absent the need to heat the cathode, you could fit the entire vacuum tube into a few cubic microns
17:35 < xentrac> I hadn't realized this CVD survey paper was from 1995 though!
17:37 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: so you're looking at display replacements?
17:37 < xentrac> I'm always interested in display replacements, but no
17:38 < Diablo-D3> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display
17:38 < Diablo-D3> Canon was working on that, then they got sued by one of those IP/patent trolls out of Texas, and they ended up deciding to not continue the project because the lawyer shit wasted too much time and money
17:39 < Diablo-D3> they're backing OLEDs now I think
17:43 < docl> 1995? wow, I didn't realise that. I wonder how the futuristic speculations it contains look in retrospect...
17:52 < xentrac> yeah, I had no idea!
17:52 < xentrac> I guess they didn't pan out mostly
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17:56 < Diablo-D3> I wonder what was wrong with them, Ive never heard of that before
17:56 < Diablo-D3> http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.6999
17:56 < Diablo-D3> is this related?
17:57 < kanzure> .title
17:57 < yoleaux> [1402.6999] First Operation of an Ungated Diamond Field-Emission Array Cathode in a L-Band Radiofrequency Electron Source
17:57 < xentrac> sounds like it
17:57 < xentrac> kanzure: what did you think of http://breakingsmart.com/season-1/?
17:58 < xentrac> I'm assuming you've probably read it
17:58 < kanzure> i've seen this, but haven't read it. i have read other things by venkat and generally he says agreeable things.
18:00 < kanzure> some of this is probably better written than kelty's "two bits" book
18:01 < kanzure> there was also a shorter article that venkat wrote about this... http://www.forbes.com/sites/venkateshrao/2011/12/05/the-rise-of-developeronomics/
18:01 < kanzure> and ribbonfarm tends to be okay reading material
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18:20 < frege> what the hell is roadmap?
18:20 < frege> sorry, hplus
18:20 < Aurelius_Home> humanityplus?
18:20 < Aurelius_Home> e.g. transhumanism
18:21 < Aurelius_Home> wow, e.g. was the wrong abbreviation there. I'm a retard.
18:21 < frege> ah right so it's a gay club
18:22 < Aurelius_Home> lol
18:22 < frege> exactly
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18:46 < kanzure> i don't understand what seals have to do with this
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21:38 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTML-JGRfMc
21:38 < docl> .title
21:38 < yoleaux> CVD Diamond Creation - YouTube
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22:33 < xentrac> I guess that's a pretty big difference from 20 years ago
22:36 < xentrac> hmm, two weeks of deposition to grow 2500 microns is 7 microns per hour, which is actually right in line with what that 20-year-old paper said they were getting then with plasma process
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22:42 < xentrac> (I guess in SI units that's 2 nm/s)
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 29 00:00:50 2015