--- Log opened Tue Dec 29 00:00:50 2015 00:02 -!- andares [~andares@2607:fb90:812c:2f82:8de0:52b2:5cff:85c5] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:02 -!- andares [~andares@2607:fb90:812c:2f82:8de0:52b2:5cff:85c5] has quit [Changing host] 00:02 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:04 -!- iDavid [jinx@joe.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:05 -!- iDavid [jinx@joe.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:43 -!- technologiclee [~lee@58.60.2.91] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:01 -!- jenelizabeth_ [~jenelizab@cpc76802-brmb10-2-0-cust399.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:03 -!- jenelizabeth_ [~jenelizab@cpc76802-brmb10-2-0-cust399.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:28 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30 -!- rsa [rsa@228.ip-176-31-189.eu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:38 -!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-56-224.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:17 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qtjxbgpuecoiohju] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 04:19 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19 -!- Josh|NH4H [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21 -!- dcentral [~IGLC@2601:681:500:165a:909f:3320:82ee:560] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:53 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lcdtdkntwjvaitfo] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:04 -!- technologiclee [~lee@58.60.2.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:10 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-188-103-077-131.188.103.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:15 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-98-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:32 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:32 -!- maaku is now known as Guest87480 05:33 -!- Guest87480 is now known as maaku 05:34 < kanzure> "yo! something is up with http://link.springer.com/ all materials >10 years old are free for downloading" 05:35 < kanzure> 308 springer links in the logs 05:35 < kanzure> how many of these are old enough? 05:38 -!- xentrac [~kragen@adjuvant.canonical.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:55 -!- xentrac [~kragen@adjuvant.canonical.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:58 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:03 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-atyphdlulbbtuhld] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:06 < maaku> kanzure: i believe tulip on #bitcoin-wizards is mass harvesting those files 06:06 < maaku> might want to coordinate with him if you want something more then CS books 06:07 < maaku> (i asked him to get physical science and engineering books, but not sure if he'll follow up on that) 06:20 < pompolic> does anyone know if this is a limited-time offer? 06:20 < pompolic> having all these books as open access, i mean 06:21 < Aurelius_Work> pompolic : I'll be on vacation for twelve days starting thursday evening--we should do some WF 06:24 -!- jenelizabeth_ [~jenelizab@cpc76802-brmb10-2-0-cust399.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:25 < FAMAS> this user recommends the utilization of the paq and bulkzip algorithms for file archiving at maximum possible compression and recommends them being utilized to store the channel logs 06:48 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:50 -!- playfuldinosaur [~AndChat30@static-100-38-178-29.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:51 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:52 < playfuldinosaur> Whats your favorite biohacking book? 06:52 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:01 -!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:10 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-98-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:13 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-98-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:27 < kanzure> here are some things http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/springerwat/ 07:30 -!- atomical [~atomical@li669-27.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:31 -!- playfuldinosaur [~AndChat30@static-100-38-178-29.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:31 -!- playfuldinosaur [~AndChat30@static-100-38-178-29.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:33 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:33 < kanzure> can one of you baboons let me know when you have a copy of that? i don't want to leave those up. 07:34 < docl> kanzure: methinks you need to ban that spammer who keeps going on about compressing the channel logs. 07:36 < playfuldinosaur> I'll download them later 07:36 < playfuldinosaur> Some at least 07:36 < playfuldinosaur> Very interesting thanks for sharing 07:37 < eudoxia> i'm downloading some know because why not 07:37 < eudoxia> now* god dammit 07:37 < kanzure> i thought you are on dial up 07:37 < eudoxia> no 07:39 < playfuldinosaur> Im at work :/ 07:39 -!- bjonnh [~Bjonnh@unaffiliated/bjonnh] has left ##hplusroadmap ["WeeChat 1.0.1"] 07:39 < playfuldinosaur> On my phone 07:42 < eudoxia> i'm keeping the brain stem surgery textbook just in case 07:43 < playfuldinosaur> Anyone have any more directories or fav books? 07:43 < playfuldinosaur> This is cool 07:47 < kanzure> i'm not sure how you would be aware of this, but my message was not a reply to your request 07:47 < kanzure> see http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-29.log just before you arrived 07:48 -!- |node [uid125132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sdhgywvuaszevwpr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:48 < AdrianG> so we have a christmas present from springer? 07:49 < kanzure> essentially 07:51 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jtxqwmghcpgpxhzs] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:53 -!- playfuldinosaur [~AndChat30@static-100-38-178-29.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53 -!- playfuldinosaur [~AndChat30@static-100-38-178-29.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:54 -!- atomical [~atomical@li669-27.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:56 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:59 < playfuldinosaur> Nice 07:59 < playfuldinosaur> Well my question still stand lol 08:09 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-atyphdlulbbtuhld] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:10 < kanzure> hmm i wonder if ranchers are already using mutagenesis for their breeding programs. my guess is probably no. 08:11 < kanzure> (one of the books was about "statistical methods for genetic improvement of livestock") 08:11 < kanzure> there is very little about dna sequencing in this book, heh 08:13 < kanzure> ah they do eventually mention embryo transfer, self-fertilization, chimeras, polyploidy, gene transfer. 08:15 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r167-57-128-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:16 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-98-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28 < playfuldinosaur> What about books and directories? 08:32 < maaku> playfuldinosaur: read the logs 08:33 < playfuldinosaur> Lol yes i forgot about that 08:44 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r167-57-128-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:26 < kanzure> unfortunately "methods in molecular biology" is not available in this glitch >:( 09:29 < kanzure> which is practically the only useful book series they have. hmph. 09:31 < kanzure> http://www.springer.com/series/7651 09:34 < kanzure> or these http://www.springerprotocols.com/cdp/view/Series?issn=0893-2336&sortBy=VOLUME&submit=Go 09:35 -!- gentoognuhurd [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:45 < atomical> |node: why do you keep messaging me? 09:45 < atomical> is |node a bot? 09:46 < |node> Hi! 09:47 < atomical> hi 09:48 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:52 < kanzure> ooh "Modern Techniques in Neuroscience Research" 09:53 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erx94.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:57 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-128-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:00 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:01 < kanzure> ooh, "Organtransplantation in Rats and Mice - Microsurgical Techniques and Immunological Principles" 10:03 -!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-56-224.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 10:17 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:31 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:19 < playfuldinosaur> Guys question, if you talked to a noob biohackee what projects do you recommend him/her to start with? 11:29 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:29 < xentrac> a noob biohackee? Like somebody who's a guinea pig in somebody else's CRISPR experiment for the first time? I'd recommend starting with calling the police 11:31 < kanzure> no it's like a hackie sac. 11:33 < playfuldinosaur> Lolol 11:33 < playfuldinosaur> Def like a hackie sack 11:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-128-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:44 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@108-240-244-194.lightspeed.frsnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:48 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@195.114.248.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:07 -!- jenelizabeth [~jenelizab@cpc76802-brmb10-2-0-cust399.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:12 -!- dcentral [~IGLC@2601:681:500:165a:d579:8b85:6bfb:4f9c] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:18 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:29 < playfuldinosaur> So no? 12:31 < kanzure> your first project should be acquiring lab skills- go to a community college molecular biology lab class, cut the lab manual book into small chunks and then proceed to feast. 12:41 < playfuldinosaur> Did that part 12:42 < playfuldinosaur> Used to work for a lab growing toxoplasma and HFF cells 12:42 < kanzure> can toxo secrete shit while in its dormant phase? 12:43 < kanzure> i want to select toxo strains for positive nootropic effect 12:45 < playfuldinosaur> I dont know for sure but my guess is no. My lab was trying to focus on inserting dna so we could force it out of its dormant stage so we could target it with drugs. My guess is that if drugs cant reach it while its dormant there is little to no cell signals coming in and out of it 12:47 < playfuldinosaur> What nootropic effect? 12:48 < kanzure> any measurable nootropic effect 12:48 < playfuldinosaur> Toxo is small enough to fit in a human cell so you could potentially hack it so it works as a pseudo organelle 12:48 < kanzure> e.g. existing brain lesions caused by toxo sometimes cause cognitive augmentation or benefit 12:48 < playfuldinosaur> I wasnt aware of that 12:48 < kanzure> (and sometimes defecit... but those strains should not be selected) 12:48 < AdrianG> kanzure: did you download everything you wanted from springer yet 12:49 < kanzure> AdrianG: years ago 12:49 < kanzure> i would like "methods in molecular biology" but that's not available during this glitch 12:49 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:50 < AdrianG> kanzure: i thought you had access before? 12:50 < AdrianG> recall asking you for some paper some time ago 12:50 < kanzure> there's new stuff in "methods in molecular biology" that i don't have 12:51 < playfuldinosaur> I think its easier to do a project with gut bacteria than eith toxo because of the possibility of getting toxoplasmosis 12:51 < playfuldinosaur> Or with some other organism for that matter 12:51 < playfuldinosaur> Im interested now, kanzure have you done any home diy cell bio experiments? 12:52 < AdrianG> toxo studies are going to be really difficult to get approved by ethics boards. 12:52 < kanzure> AdrianG: why are you such a troll 12:52 < playfuldinosaur> Yeah also funding is an issue and the reason i no longer work there haha 12:52 -!- CaptHindsight [~2020@unaffiliated/capthindsight] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:53 < kanzure> toxo stuff does get past the ethics review boards, duh 12:53 < kanzure> and who cares if it didn't? ethics review boards have been known to mistakes. i don't care. 12:53 < kanzure> *to make mistakes 12:54 < kanzure> playfuldinosaur: i'm really unsure why you are asking about newbie projects if you have actual lab experience. 12:55 < CaptHindsight> does Josiah from http://www.the-odin.com/ spend any time in here? 12:55 < playfuldinosaur> Haha well i want to learn about diy projects. Im a noob to those 12:56 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: he spends more time on https://groups.google.com/group/diybio 12:56 < CaptHindsight> thanks 12:56 < kanzure> yup 12:56 < AdrianG> kanzure: how am i trolling? infecting humans with toxo isnt going to pass oversight 12:56 < playfuldinosaur> Woah i didnt know that was a thing the google groups 12:56 < kanzure> 1) bringing up ethics review boards is totally irrelevant to any of the conversation 12:57 < kanzure> 2) nobody said anything about humans. why are you doing this to me? just stop. 12:57 < AdrianG> i was responding to playfuldinosaur about gut bacteria vs toxo 12:57 < AdrianG> thats why 12:57 < kanzure> 3) it's wrong to assume that ethics review boards have a zero failure rate, and it's wrong to assume they don't have false positives or false negatives. 12:58 < kanzure> gut bacteria does not mean human-only 12:58 < kanzure> sigh 12:59 < playfuldinosaur> Gut bacteria has smaller plasmid too 12:59 < playfuldinosaur> Easier 12:59 < playfuldinosaur> Less ethics more science :) 13:00 < playfuldinosaur> Kanzure that should be our motto "less ethics more science" 13:00 < kanzure> playfuldinosaur: if you are unfamiliar with https://groups.google.com/group/diybio then perhaps take a look at http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq 13:00 < AdrianG> i really should be more verbose, otherwise i am always presumed to be trolling. 13:01 -!- jaboja64 [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:01 < playfuldinosaur> Ok i gotta really look at that wiki there is literally so much in theee 13:01 < AdrianG> human-only, why? the only primates we can test on these days are humans. translating neuro research from mice/rats to higher primates is a lot more prone to failures. 13:02 -!- atomical_ [~atomical@172.56.13.120] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:02 -!- atomical_ [~atomical@172.56.13.120] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03 < kanzure> because validation of directed evolution for nootropics can be achieved in non-primates; brain testing works for non-primates. 13:03 < kanzure> validation and refutation is cheaper to achieve at that level compared to being wrong and wasting time infecting yourself or others 13:05 < AdrianG> directed evolution? I thought you were going to use toxo as more precise drugs, something like optogenetics. 13:05 < kanzure> i said selection 13:05 < AdrianG> i guess for directed evolution, that would require validation first. 13:05 < kanzure> i think selection and directed evolution are very similar 13:05 < AdrianG> since we dont already have it shown it works otherwise 13:05 < kanzure> optogenetics also requires validation -_- 13:05 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@erx94.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:05 < kanzure> directed evolution has been shown to work for trivial problems 13:05 < AdrianG> kanzure: for selection/evolution - maybe 13:05 < AdrianG> we have shown it works in principle. 13:06 < kanzure> we have shown it works in practice for trivial problems. 13:06 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:06 < kanzure> where trivial is some combination of evolutionary landscape, protein sequence/fold possibility space, mutation rate, and good/functional measurement for selection 13:06 < AdrianG> we will end up doing species specific work at some point, sooner or later 13:10 < playfuldinosaur> Or at least accurate (ish) computer simulations of them 13:12 < xentrac> by "directed evolution" do you mean things like toy poodles, bloodhounds, and pit bulls? 13:12 < kanzure> well the topic was toxoplasmosis :-) so... sort of? 13:12 < kanzure> i guess poodles are sorta infectious 13:13 < xentrac> oh, you mean directed evolution of toxoplasmosis has been shown to work? 13:13 < xentrac> I hadn't heard that 13:13 < kanzure> directed evolution of all kinds of microbes has been shown to work 13:13 < kanzure> ... for trivial problems. 13:14 < xentrac> I see --- I didn't know you were talking about all kinds of microbes. 13:14 < kanzure> (impossible behavior is still impossible, of course. ubt if there's something possible, and nearby in the evolutionary landscape, and you supply enough mutation, and you have good selection mechanisms and measurements, you can reach those mutations and alleles) 13:14 < kanzure> *but if there's 13:15 < kanzure> oh and also if you are willing to bruteforce it, and the total time until bruteforcing success happens to be small, and it's achievable by bruteforcing... that's another way. 13:16 -!- rsa [rsa@228.ip-176-31-189.eu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:16 < playfuldinosaur> I dont disagree with you kanzure, but specifically for toxo is harder to acheive directed evolution because of the amount of trasncription factors that toxo has. Other micros have way less. 13:17 < kanzure> are the transcription factors known? if we get cheap dna synthesis ( http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/ ) it would probably be easier to just remove as many transcription factors as possible, until the thing barely works. 13:18 < AdrianG> kanzure: what are the current costs to engineer a bacteria to spec? 13:18 < AdrianG> say i want to insert a certain sequence and make it produce a certain polymer or whatever 13:18 < AdrianG> is this at garaga-diy costs yet? 13:19 < AdrianG> say we already know what genetic sequence needs to be inserted. 13:20 < kanzure> if you are willing to outsource dna synthesis, and you are willing to use something like plasmid insertion (transformation), then yes that can be done fairly cheap 13:20 < kanzure> or, if not outsourcing dna synthesis, then at least outsourcing your acquisition of the plasmid 13:21 < playfuldinosaur> The number would be close to 80 and we are still discovering more. Look at the AP2 proteins they are the best ones to look at because they are also plant transcription factors that dont appear in humans 13:24 < playfuldinosaur> So lets say you want to meddle with toxo while its inside a host you can tackle the AP2 because animals wont have them. So in a way its the safest bet. 13:33 < playfuldinosaur> Im gonna disconnect and go back with my verified nick idk why im using this one. Ill be cautious 13:34 -!- playfuldinosaur [~AndChat30@static-100-38-178-29.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:35 -!- CautiousNarwhal [~AndChat30@static-100-38-178-29.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:39 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ymvyboqnhyqleuix] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:39 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:43 < CaptHindsight> AdrianG: how long are your polymers? 13:44 < CaptHindsight> polymers/sequences 13:45 < AdrianG> CaptHindsight: it was just an example 13:45 < AdrianG> could be monomers. 13:46 < AdrianG> idk, say i want to manufacture glycerin on the cheap 13:46 < kanzure> "Antibody myostatin blockade has just completed phase 2 clinical trials" 13:46 < kanzure> was that recent 13:46 < AdrianG> phase 2? 13:49 < CaptHindsight> AdrianG: depends on what you want to synthesize, your examples are from one extreme to the other 13:49 < AdrianG> CaptHindsight: i was interested in costs of custom bacteria, thats all 13:49 < AdrianG> polymers probably would be a lot more difficult. 13:50 < CaptHindsight> https://azcobiotech.com/reagents-for-oligonucleotide-synthesis/liquid-reagents/ is down right now 13:50 < CaptHindsight> but the reagents were ~$1k/g 13:50 < AdrianG> you dont need a gram, as far as i know 13:51 < kanzure> yes but most people are just going to order a plasmid from someone else, or whatever 13:51 < AdrianG> this stuff is done in micrograms if not lower 13:51 < CaptHindsight> so if you use a femtoliter printhead it's not much 13:51 < AdrianG> kanzure: sure. but at some point, it might become table-top. 13:51 < AdrianG> i think a widely distributed development effort will require much lower costs. 13:51 < kanzure> yes but your question wasn't about fucking tabletop, it was about current costs >:( 13:51 < kanzure> that's shifting the goal posts on me, man 13:51 < AdrianG> kanzure: garage-diy 13:52 < kanzure> that does not mean tabletop 13:52 < AdrianG> it doesnt, because i know tabletop at the moment is unachievable 13:52 < AdrianG> im not shifting anything. i just asked an open ended question, geez. 13:55 < CaptHindsight> they advertise ~25 cents per base pair, but I hear that it's not the actual cost 13:56 < CaptHindsight> http://www.genscript.com/gene_synthesis.html 13:57 < AdrianG> heh. 13:57 < AdrianG> same price as biobasic. 13:57 < AdrianG> https://store.biobasic.com/gene-synthesis/ 13:59 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:01 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:08 < CaptHindsight> their sweet spot seems to be 500-3000bp http://www.generalbiosystems.com/index.php?c=content&a=show&id=28541&gclid=CI_hs5WKgsoCFQEIaQodNSYKoA 14:16 -!- CautiousNarwhal [~AndChat30@static-100-38-178-29.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:20 -!- atomical_ [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:21 -!- dcentral [~IGLC@2601:681:500:165a:d579:8b85:6bfb:4f9c] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:23 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:23 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:25 -!- atomical_ [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:29 -!- jdqx_ [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:6524:367d:b2ff:aaef] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:30 -!- jdqx [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:f8bb:90c1:43e7:3b73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:31 -!- andares [~andares@2607:fb90:812c:2f82:8de0:52b2:5cff:85c5] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:31 -!- andares [~andares@2607:fb90:812c:2f82:8de0:52b2:5cff:85c5] has quit [Changing host] 14:31 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:32 < FourFire> "less ethics; more science" is now my oneliner for passively agressively blowing off people trolling me about transhumanism 14:32 < kanzure> they aren't actually interested in whether it's ethical 14:33 < kanzure> wtf is so ethical about people living in miserable aged bodies, about death and destruction and despair. fuck the ethicists. 14:35 < FourFire> ^ 14:36 < CaptHindsight> are they the same people that complain about for-profit health care? 14:37 < kanzure> good question. maybe? 14:37 < xentrac> FourFire: I understand why you might be tempted to do that, because it will make your life more comfortable, but it will damage the cause 14:38 < kanzure> there are good ethical reasons to do transhumanist thngs. but it's wrong to force everyone to be constantly explaining why. 14:38 < xentrac> sure 14:38 < xentrac> you could respond with violence 14:39 < kanzure> that's an idea 14:39 < xentrac> "but isn't that unethical?" *punch* 14:40 < xentrac> but responding by claiming merely not to claim about ethics will give your opponents ammunition and will undermine any later ethical claims you might try to make 14:40 < xentrac> I mean obviously just responding with violence is bad too, but not as bad 14:40 < kanzure> people who complain about ethics are just testing your social skills 14:41 < xentrac> some of them, but not others 14:41 < xentrac> but the point mostly isn't to convince the people who are complaining 14:41 < kanzure> recognizing valid ethical reasoning is a good social skill to have. 14:41 < xentrac> it's to convince, or avoid deconvincing, whoever else is present or might hear the story repeated later 14:42 < kanzure> were you around when we had that person who wanted to convert the galaxy into computronium 14:42 < xentrac> no 14:42 < xentrac> why only the galaxy? 14:43 < kanzure> he was impatient :-) 14:53 -!- dcentral [~IGLC@2601:681:500:165a:d579:8b85:6bfb:4f9c] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:59 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:01 -!- abetusk [~abe@c-98-216-104-129.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:04 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:14 -!- abetusk [~abe@2601:184:4002:2290:9585:2457:638b:57b3] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:15 -!- abetusk is now known as Guest55515 15:34 -!- Guest55515 is now known as abetusk 15:35 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:43 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:46 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-188-103-077-131.188.103.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:51 -!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:10 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-188-103-077-131.188.103.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:35 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:36 < atomical> reading about keto is getting a bit tiring 16:39 -!- atomical_ [~atomical@mbc5036d0.tmodns.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:40 < AdrianG> why? 16:43 -!- atomica__ [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:43 < atomica__> because these fat fucks are going to die of heart disease 16:43 < xentrac> I finally found the "99-line topology optimization code" article: http://www.topopt.dtu.dk/files/matlab.pdf 16:43 -!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:46 < xentrac> 1999: "other approaches based on genetic algorithms or other semi-random approaches require thousands of function evaluations even for small number of elements and must be considered impractical" 16:46 < kanzure> i don't think that was true in 1999! what about gpu stuff. 16:47 -!- atomical_ [~atomical@mbc5036d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:48 < xentrac> gpu stuff was not practical in 1999 16:48 < xentrac> it's certainly true that gradient descent will converge to an answer in a lot less computation than genetic algorithms! 16:49 < kanzure> why was gpu stuff not practical in 1999? surely you could smash triangles into each other or something? 16:51 < xentrac> GPUs were still fairly fixed-function, and even for the things that you *could* compute on them, it was really slow to get the data anywhere besides on your monitor 16:53 < xentrac> they were optimized for moving data from the computer into the graphics card, not vice versa 16:53 < xentrac> actually the time to move data between memories is still a problem for GPGPU today 16:53 < xentrac> but not the overwhelming problem it was then 16:59 -!- abetusk [~abe@2601:184:4002:2290:9585:2457:638b:57b3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11 -!- abetusk [~abe@2601:184:4002:2290:9585:2457:638b:57b3] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:11 -!- abetusk is now known as Guest77500 17:17 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:24 -!- Guest77500 [~abe@2601:184:4002:2290:9585:2457:638b:57b3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:27 -!- jaboja64 [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:34 -!- dcentral [~IGLC@2601:681:500:165a:d579:8b85:6bfb:4f9c] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:37 -!- Guest77500 [~abe@2601:184:4002:2290:94a8:59d2:b852:23e5] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:40 -!- jaboja64 [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:51 < pasky> geforce 256 was the first commodity gpu that'd even let you smash triangles 17:53 < kanzure> wasn't it the pythagorean theorem that said that all problems can be decomposed into a set of triangle collision conjectures? :p 17:57 < pasky> then again, according to wikipedia, geforce 256 was only faster at this than the lowest-end cpus 18:04 < xentrac> "let's use GPUs" and "let's use Java" were two of the obviously terrible ideas I was seeing on the Beowulf mailing list occasionally around that time 18:05 < xentrac> fast forward to 2004 and they were no longer terrible 18:09 -!- jdqx_ [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:6524:367d:b2ff:aaef] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:12 < xentrac> http://www.kurzweilai.net/superintelligence-fears-promises-and-potentials covers a lot of the current debate about ethics and science 18:12 < xentrac> Goertzel thinks Yudkowsky and Bostrom are overstating AGI risk 18:12 -!- jdqx [~jdqx@2602:306:cc94:1950:1c7a:16b4:8b28:9bc5] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:13 < xentrac> touching on diybio and MNT 18:13 < kanzure> xentrac: goertzel's long standing opinion is http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2010/10/singularity-institutes-scary-idea-and.html 18:15 < kanzure> ah, he links to that. efficient. 18:16 < kanzure> "Arguably, such an “AGI Nanny” could manage the transition to and through a Singularity much better than human beings or purely human institutions. An AGI Nanny would in a sense be a kind of “police state” — but if policing of dangerous technologies were combined with compassionate ethics, abolition of human-scale material scarcity, and coherent rational pursuit of a positive Singularity, one would have something very different ... 18:16 < kanzure> ... from the “police states” that have existed in human history." 18:16 < kanzure> this is still objectionable. 18:16 < kanzure> "Bostrom and Yudkowsky, from what I have seen, are ethical and peaceable individuals who genuinely want the best for all mankind, as well as wanting to see amazing transhuman possibilities come about in a safe and well-managed way. However, their tendency toward elitism does not strike everyone as benign in its potential consequences." 18:16 < kanzure> accusing them of elitism is a terrible attempt at refuting their arguments -_- 18:17 < kanzure> nice to see precautionary vs proactionary principle mentioned... 18:17 < xentrac> it seems very much in agreement 18:18 < xentrac> I haven't reached the "AGI Nanny" quote 18:18 < kanzure> there's a lot of fluff in this article, basically goertzel's usual nonsense 18:18 < kanzure> which is entirely skippable 18:18 < xentrac> 'coherent rational pursuit of a positive Singularity' is a reasonably good description of the Great Leap Forward and also of Marxism in general 18:19 < xentrac> but they still had police states 18:19 < kanzure> i mentioned a refutation of police states and ai nanny moratoriums and such earlier this month 18:19 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-12.log 18:20 < xentrac> how can you refute a policy proposal? 18:20 < kanzure> by showing the policy is nonsense, bad, or misinformed, or that it doesn't achieve its goals, or that it is incapable of achieving its goals 18:20 < kanzure> .... duh? 18:21 < kanzure> i guess that's why maaku mentioned militias (in the same file) 18:22 < xentrac> hmm, I think those would calculate as refutations for propositions that a policy was sensible, good, informed, or effective 18:22 < xentrac> but not for the policy itself 18:22 < kanzure> oh also there was some anti-yudkowsky stuff at 22:37 here http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-11.log 18:24 < xentrac> I mean people might still support the policy for reasons other than its stated goals, for example 18:24 -!- CautiousNarwhal [ad03d8c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.173.3.216.198] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:25 < kanzure> example from another context plz? 18:28 < xentrac> I don't think the PNAC folks believed there were nuclear weapons in Iraq; they had their own reasons for wanting to invade 18:28 < xentrac> so persuading them that there were no nuclear weapons wouldn't persuade them not to invade 18:32 < xentrac> you can get more meta still: often political delegates vote for policies they disagree with when they don't believe those policies have a chance of passing, in order to cheaply curry favor with the folks who support those policies 18:32 < kanzure> btcdrak: wtf do you have a telepathic link to xentrac? 18:33 < kanzure> i guess btcdrak's message came after xentrac's. weird. 18:34 * btcdrak grins 18:36 < xentrac> I have telepathic links with everyone 18:36 < kanzure> he was asking about fbi excuses to invade iraq 18:36 < kanzure> for WMD reasons 18:36 < kanzure> basically a minure after your mention 18:37 < kanzure> *minute 18:50 < CautiousNarwhal> hi guys again 18:50 < CautiousNarwhal> telepaths? 18:54 < xentrac> I transmit my thoughts through electrical impulses to dozens, sometimes thousands of people around the world 18:54 < xentrac> isn't that telepathy? 18:56 -!- jaboja64 [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57 < kanzure> xentrac: mind control over motion? that's impossible http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/lolwhat.txt (this was an email i received a few years ago) 18:57 < kanzure> crispr/cas9 guide https://www.addgene.org/CRISPR/guide/ 19:02 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:04 < kanzure> "editas" is crispr startup, apparently. raised $43M. is going through FDA stuff at the moment. 19:04 < kanzure> http://www.editasmedicine.com/ 19:04 < kanzure> hahah the stock photos.... one of them is a stock photo of george church :-). 19:05 < kanzure> http://www.editasmedicine.com/documents/Editas%20-%20Human%20Gene%20Editing%20Comment%20-%20Final.pdf 19:06 < kanzure> http://www.editasmedicine.com/publications.php 19:11 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14 -!- CautiousNarwhal [ad03d8c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.173.3.216.198] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 19:23 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-221-52-245.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:23 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-235-10-196.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:37 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:37 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ymvyboqnhyqleuix] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 19:40 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:46 -!- Guest77500 [~abe@2601:184:4002:2290:94a8:59d2:b852:23e5] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:56 -!- Guest77500 [~abe@2601:184:4002:2290:8dd7:41d7:c8ad:df47] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:57 -!- dcentral [~IGLC@206.251.40.170] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:00 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jtxqwmghcpgpxhzs] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20:08 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11 < kanzure> .title http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=87189 20:11 < yoleaux> Seafloor Features Are Revealed by the Gravity Field : Image of the Day 20:13 < kanzure> "Mountains and other seafloor features have a lot of mass, so they exert a gravitational pull on the water above and around them; essentially, seamounts pull more water toward their center of mass. This causes water to pile up in small but measurable bumps on the sea surface." 20:14 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:14 < kanzure> "New global marine gravity model from CryoSat-2 and Jason-1 reveals buried tectonic structure" http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6205/65 20:50 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:55 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 20:55 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:00 -!- dfused [~dfused@2400:8901::f03c:91ff:fe67:eb38] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 21:04 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:10 -!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-whmiuocdmkoashnv] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:13 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-188-103-077-131.188.103.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:15 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@195.114.248.161] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:22 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@esg214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:30 -!- Guest77500 is now known as abetusk 21:58 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10810271 21:58 < yoleaux> All Springer Textbooks More Than 10 Years Old Available for Free Legal Download | Hacker News 22:06 < FourFire> xentrac, fine, I'll maintain my current strategy of covertly converting bright people, while pretending to want to research "healthcare" to everyone else 22:18 < maaku> came here to see goertzel's article discussed, was not disappointed 22:20 < kanzure> i find your lack of faith disturbing 22:20 < maaku> AGI is a bizarro world right now where the loudest voices are neo-fascist, and the only (relatively) sane voice is a bit of a cookoo hippy 22:20 < kanzure> :-) 22:22 < kanzure> yes it's unfortunate that there isn't a generally correct well-reasoned anti-eliezer anti-yudkowsky thing....... some of the fearmongering is just dumb (if you imagine infinitely powerful adversaries, yes it's okay to not imagine human survival). and the usual refutation ("BUT HE IS ARROGANT") is also stupid. 22:46 < justanot1eruser> AGI is full of neo-fascists? 22:47 < justanot1eruser> We are talking about AI right? Not something else? 22:47 -!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lcdtdkntwjvaitfo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:03 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:18 < CaptHindsight> why all these narcissist cheese haters? jeez I can't wait until the 2020's 23:26 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nzllzbzdppglgkgd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:40 -!- Weno [4336aa9c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.54.170.156] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:40 -!- Weno [4336aa9c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.54.170.156] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47 -!- wrldpc1 [~ben@147.131.169.216.client.dyn.strong-sf94.as22781.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Wed Dec 30 00:00:51 2015