--- Log opened Wed Dec 30 00:00:51 2015
00:10 < Diablo-D3> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1507.03592v3.pdf
00:10 < Diablo-D3> .title
00:10 < yoleaux> Diablo-D3: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
00:10 < Diablo-D3> doh
00:10 < Diablo-D3> "How to Recover a Qubit That Has Fallen Into a Black Hole"
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00:43 < Diablo-D3> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v524/n7564/full/nature14668.html
00:44 < fenn> .title
00:44 < yoleaux> The octopus genome and the evolution of cephalopod neural and morphological novelties : Nature : Nature Publishing Group
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01:23 < fenn> missing "Nucleic Acids and Molecular Biology" volumes 1, 11, 12  (there are 28 in the series?)
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01:46 < fenn> uploaded 11 12 and 15; springer is missing 1 and 5, and the rest are still paywalled
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02:03 < fenn> gosh they have a lot of books available for download
02:04 < fenn> 110,183 books to be precise
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05:19 < atomica__> test
05:20 < xentrac> FourFire: sounds like a good plan
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06:14 < kanzure> https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/dutch-universities-and-elsevier-reach-deal-over-open-access
06:15 < chris_99> did anything happen with elsevier and the whole of France, gaining free access
06:15 < xentrac> the netherlands is my hero
06:16 < xentrac> I hacked together a super minimal accelerometer-driven VR proof of concept: http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/81hacks/topopt-ar/
06:17 < xentrac> I was going to include topology optimization and camera input in it in some form, but I ran out of time
06:17 < xentrac> it took me most of an hour to figure out the basic accelerometer crap
06:23 < kanzure> springer fixed their bug
06:24 < maaku> sadly :(
06:43 < xentrac> what bug?
06:44 < xentrac> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10810271 has discussion of Springer access
06:44 < xentrac> "Access seems to have been cut off about 2 hours ago" "It appears to be working well for me"
06:45 < kanzure> for the past few days, springer had ~50k books and lots of older material available for download
06:46 < xentrac> I know.  seems to be 135 books now
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07:46 < fenn> i snagged some engineering books that sounded interesting; would have tried harder if i had realized the time-limited nature of the opportunity
07:48 < pompolic> I'd have grabbed more if i had the storage space /excuses
07:48 < pompolic> was too good to be true
07:50 < kanzure> fenn: science liberation front has you covered. significant chunk retrieved.
07:51 < kanzure> however, a lot of this is moot because of (undisclosed reasons that would make everyone smile so hard they would die)
07:51 < fenn> right, well, i'll believe it when i see it
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08:09 < xentrac> kanzure: where?
08:09 < xentrac> the undisclosed reasons sound awesome but they might change
08:11 < kanzure> nah it's stuff that happened in the past. over and done. :-)
08:14 < xentrac> global thermonculear war?  no, if that were it then I already would have heard
08:14 < xentrac> it's been 23 minutes since you said that
08:14 < kanzure> why would global thermonuclear war make you smile?
08:15 < xentrac> one might smile at the foolishness of people spending their precious remaining minutes of life downloading books they would never read
08:16 < pompolic> i'm guessing they've been mass-grabbed by someone(s)
08:17 < kanzure> even better
08:17 < andares> Uh, I should just go grab the logs
08:18 < kanzure> i highly encourage everyone to always grab the logs
08:18 < andares> But what are we discussing? My first glance was at global thermonuclear war..
08:18 < andares> I will grab the logs
08:18 < xentrac> Springer
08:18 < xentrac> kanzure: is it possible to git clone the logs?
08:19 < andares> Oh goodness that's awesome
08:20 < xentrac> Yes, Springer's decision was very generous
08:20 < xentrac> Let's hope they make it permanent
08:20 < andares> xentrac: I don't think git would work well, because they are streaming
08:20 < fenn> lol it was obviously a mistake
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08:21 < xentrac> fenn: I don't think so, although I admit that's a possibility
08:21 < fenn> downloading books sounds like the best possible use of the last few minutes before the missiles hit
08:22 < fenn> some new stuff in springerwat/engineering/ (use your brain)
08:22 < xentrac> what about reading the books you've already downloaded
08:22 < fenn> what about thinking about the future of humanity
08:23 < andares> I always fall into the mental trap of thinking that downloading a book has somehow installed its contents into my brain.
08:23 < andares> Damnit, we need the matrix
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08:24 < xentrac> you could probably finish thinking about the future of humanity fairly quickly if a nuclear holocaust were imminent.  maybe you could listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JCFAci21wE
08:24 < fenn> .title
08:24 < yoleaux> Simon & Garfunkel - The Sun is Burning - YouTube
08:24 < andares> xentrac: missile strikes would push forward the deadline for singularity rather dramatically I fear
08:26 < xentrac> well, we probably have at least six months or a year
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08:27 < xentrac> maybe longer
08:27 < xentrac> and maybe WWIII won't involve a nuclear exchange
08:27 < andares> I think the next imminent threat to humanity is bioterrorism
08:28 < xentrac> UN Security Council Resolution 2254 makes me optimistic about that
08:28 < andares> DIY is going to pretty quickly become easy enough for somebody to do
08:29 < andares> I don't worry about nation-state bioterrorism, mostly about lone wolves
08:29 < andares> Fortunately, all the malicious lone wolves have been stupid or not technically inclined
08:29 < kanzure> the concern about lone wolves is misplaced.... you never had control over loners.
08:30 < xentrac> You kind of have to be stupid to attempt bioterrorism as a lone wolf
08:30 < kanzure> you should instead focus on improving general technology infrastructure so that everyone can defend themselves and work on problem solving
08:30 < andares> But before, a loner could not release an outbreak of ebola
08:30 < kanzure> by limiting infrastructure in fear of lone wolves, you make us more vulnerable to attack
08:30 < kanzure> yes they could have done that before
08:30 < kanzure> there are even people who intentionally infect others with STDs
08:30 < andares> I agree with your points about infra btw
08:31 < andares> I am just disentangling my fears and my solutions
08:31 < kanzure> solution is to have way for everyone to bugger off with their own space colonies, try their own political experiments, etc.
08:31 < xentrac> you certainly could have released an outbreak of ebola as a lone wolf 40 years ago
08:32 < xentrac> you'd have to do like that guy who infected himself with hookworms in Cameroon though
08:32 < andares> kanzure: once we get a bit closer to Seveneves
08:32 < xentrac> and you'd probably die in the process, but that's still true
08:33 < andares> Xentrac: there are lots of suicide bombers in the middle East atm. I don't understand why they're not channeling that into higher-scale attacks
08:34 < xentrac> they aren't "lone wolves"
08:34 < andares> Well, small cells
08:34 < xentrac> also I think suicide bombing is more an Indian thing
08:34 < xentrac> although there are obvs people in the Middle East doing it too
08:35 < andares> Hrm. I guess we'd start seeing symptoms, and then contact trace our way out of it
08:37 < andares> Maybe some kind of rapid vaccination design program too
08:37 < xentrac> the thing that limits lone-wolf bioterrorism (or to a lesser extent chemical and explosive terrorism) is that by far the most likely outcome is that the lone "wolf" dies in the process without hurting anybody else
08:38 < xentrac> except maybe whoever finds their body and disposes of it
08:38 < andares> I know the RNAi-based vaccine for Ebola failed to get approval, but maybe RNAi would be a good general platform
08:39 < andares> I still don't understand why RNAi therapeutics didn't take off
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09:28 < Deku-shrub> oh wow, have I found an active transhumanist IRC channel?
09:28 < archels> yes, hello, welcome.
09:29 < Deku-shrub> omg I have so many questions
09:29 < Deku-shrub> like, who are you, how and where are you organised, what are your projects?
09:30 < kanzure> see http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap
09:31 < Deku-shrub> I have seen that
09:31 < Deku-shrub> I was wondering how the grouping came about in the first place
09:31 < Deku-shrub> I run this wiki: http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
09:31 < Deku-shrub> I am mapping out the world's tranhumanist organisations
09:31 < kanzure> waste of time.... they all suck. i was director of r&d at humanity+ for a while. don't bother.
09:31 < kanzure> hplusroadmap started in 2007 when i was writing a transhumanist technology roadmap.
09:32 < Deku-shrub> it's not associated with Humanity+ actually
09:32 < kanzure> "world's transhumanist organizations" includes humanity+ unfortunately
09:32 < Deku-shrub> This is the list of all futurist wikis I could find, I don't have anything on you org yet though http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Transhumanist_wikis
09:33 < kanzure> we are not an org, we are more like a science liberation and engineering militia
09:33 < Deku-shrub> many many organisations listed, but not yet completed: http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Category:Transhumanist_organisations
09:33 < kanzure> hmm i guess a militia has to be an organization....
09:33 < Deku-shrub> sorry ;)
09:33 < kanzure> we are just people working on some stuff
09:33 < archels> generally this channel is less concerned with talking about transhumanism than actually brining it about@s7
09:33 < Deku-shrub> what people, what stuff? I want to know. I know very little about the grinder movement
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09:34 < kanzure> grinder movement is sorta separate- they sort of hate me because i told them to go fuck themselves.
09:34 < Deku-shrub> oh okay :)
09:34 < Deku-shrub> this is my chart of the related communities, going to be published on the IEET I hope when it's finished http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_futurist_related_ideologies
09:34 < kanzure> i also hate ieet and i want james hughes to vanish
09:35 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transhumanism
09:35 < archels> ssh, let him publish my JET paper thing first
09:35 < kanzure> traitor
09:36 < Deku-shrub> I've created the largest map of what can loosly be called the transhumanist community, I am well aware that everyone either hates everyone or doesn't know about the other half
09:36 < kanzure> grinders are more like the bodymod people, e.g. tats and plastic surgery. they don't really like the idea of engineering correctness, they are more fascinated with aesthetic value and noisemaking.
09:36 < Deku-shrub> so your org's focus is biohacking I'm guessing?
09:36 < archels> so why is a nootropic user by definition not a transhumanist or a life extensionst?
09:37 < Deku-shrub> @archels - I accuse you of not reading the 'overview' section
09:37 < kanzure> i am not sure why you are calling this an organization
09:37 < pompolic> as a nub i think i ended up in the right place for once
09:37 < pompolic> re: grinders
09:37 < AdrianG> archels: who said its not?
09:37 < Deku-shrub> having a website = an organisation :p
09:37 < kanzure> what?
09:37 < Deku-shrub> I'm not using the term in a legalistic sense
09:38 < archels> well putting a disclaimer there is just the easy way out isn't it
09:38 < archels> AdrianG: http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_futurist_related_ideologies
09:38 < pompolic> kanzure: if you're asking me, i really like the idea of correctness, that's all
09:38 < archels> Deku-shrub: what's your own background?
09:38 < kanzure> no, i am "whating" his conflation of websites and organizations
09:38 < pompolic> oh, sorry
09:39 < kanzure> w/e
09:39 < Deku-shrub> I am a founder of the UK transhumanist party - deputy IT and misc fielding, digital rights person for many years, recently main contributor to H+Pedia
09:39 < Deku-shrub> http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/User:Deku-shrub
09:40 < archels> cool, yeah, pirate.london is having some trouble loading here
09:41 < Deku-shrub> It was flaking out earlier :(
09:41 < Deku-shrub> all their sysadmins are on holiday = doom
09:41 < archels> have you tried turning it off and on again?
09:41  * Deku-shrub is on shared hosting
09:41 < AdrianG> archels: the map is not the territory. we simply make up labels to help us sort things into buckets and make it easier to operate mentally with them.
09:42 < Deku-shrub> @Adrian - yes
09:42 < archels> Hrm.Wayback Machine doesn't have that page archived.
09:42 < Deku-shrub> or as Eddie Izzard would put it, I am expanding the scope of futurism through cunning use of flags
09:42 < AdrianG> i am convinced that everyone who self-medicates in hopes of improving one self in some way - is transcending their current condition.
09:43 < AdrianG> and by definition is already transhuman to some degree.
09:43 < fenn> beer monkeys
09:43 < archels> AdrianG: these kinds of disclaimers are not excuses for making a bad or wrong map
09:43 < archels> (not accusing you here Deku-shrub, just arguing the general case)
09:43 < archels> it's like putting "no copyright intended" below an infringing YouTube upload
09:44 < AdrianG> archels: its not an excuse.
09:44 < AdrianG> archels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics
09:45 < AdrianG> there can never be an absolutely precise map.
09:45 < archels> no, like you said, maps are devices to help us think
09:45 < Deku-shrub> in my case, subtle propaganda btw
09:45 < archels> if the map is making you take a wrong turn or making you generally think that two things are at opposite extremes when they're not, then it's a bad map
09:46 < archels> because it is not helping you in thinking well and making good decisions
09:46 < kanzure> i do not see this conversation as being helpful or useful
09:47 < kanzure> and i am also going to take a wild guess and assume that Deku-shrub is very much committed to his ways
09:47 < Deku-shrub> you can always contribute to the definitions and help me create the best infographic about futurist communities ever done :)
09:47 < kanzure> Deku-shrub: what do you actually do other than organize parties
09:48 < kanzure> no, fuck infographics
09:48  * Deku-shrub puts away his other infographics
09:48 < kanzure> i'm not gonna ban you for linking to infographics. but generally many people assume these images have more value than they do.
09:49 < Deku-shrub> I do many things, what would you like to know? as I said, I'm here to try and understand what this organisations/website/militia is about right now
09:50 < kanzure> i already strongly disagree with your assessment of the value of the rest of the transhumanist community; i think this is probably irreconciable.
09:51 < Deku-shrub> what value did I place on the transhumanist community? I said it was highly disorganised and has infighting - so you think the opposite?
09:52 < kanzure> you place enough value in the rest of it to bother stalking all of them. i guess there's sort of a selection effect here (because otherwise it's lacking an explanation for why you would find this place).
09:52 < kanzure> but i'd much rather you not find this place than someone think the community has value enough to bother stalking all of them
09:53 < Deku-shrub> so.. you're opposed to the principle or collating transhumanist organisations?
09:53 < kanzure> haven't you noticed they don't actually do anything?
09:53 < Deku-shrub> of course
09:53 < kanzure> so.. why are you wasting your time like this?
09:53 < Deku-shrub> I am trying to work out the few which actually do things
09:53 < Deku-shrub> in order to do this I am indexing them all first
09:53 < Deku-shrub> I enjoy this btw
09:55 < kanzure> maybe if you were an anthropologist, then i could understand or even agree. but this doesn't seem to be the case.
09:55 < Deku-shrub> who says I'm not? :p
09:55 < kanzure> (or, rather, anthropological inclinations)
09:56 < kanzure> ((i don't actually care about anthropologist titles (sorry cluckj))
09:56 < Deku-shrub> My socialogical research is mostly around dark web myths and legends rather than transhumanist stuff
09:56 < Deku-shrub> but I'm piecing together wtf 'spiritual transhumanism' is for instance
09:57 < Deku-shrub> there are many emergent transhumanist memes when you collate enough data
09:57 < kanzure> so?
09:58 < Deku-shrub> here is a page for you to object to now: http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/DIY_Hplus
09:58 < kanzure> what objection are you looking for?
09:58 < Deku-shrub> you've been suggesting my initiate is a waste of time in different ways
09:58 < Deku-shrub> so I was anticipating more of that
09:58 < Deku-shrub> *initiative
09:59 < kanzure> yea but about that particular link?
09:59 < Deku-shrub> that's about your miltia thing, I was hoping to have described you guys accurately
09:59 < Deku-shrub> I'm writing them for various orgs and interests then getting feedback until people are happy
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10:10 < Deku-shrub> anyhow, so sticking within the area of practical biohacking, do you have a relationship with this site at all? http://www.agingchart.org/wiki/Main_Page
10:13 < Deku-shrub> Any pointers to write up more about Biohacking in general would be appreciated also
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10:30 < archels> there's ##biohack also, biohack.me IRC couterpart
10:34 < Deku-shrub> nice
10:35 < Deku-shrub> apparently you can get 'answsers' on that site :)
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10:51 < xentrac> kanzure: I would appreciate it if you didn't describe any group I am even loosely affiliated with as a "militia"
10:51 < kanzure> yea i was kidding. we are also not bioterrorists, for the record.
10:51 < kanzure> "In Ticketmaster v. RMG, the smaller company, which extracted non-copyrightable data from Ticketmaster's site, lost because the Court ruled that the momentary existence of a web page in RAM constituted an unauthorized copy. The real-world analog is claiming that an illegal copy is made every time a copyrighted work reflects against your retina."
10:52 < kanzure> yeah i'm not sure how copyright law is supposed to work for people with eidetic memories
10:53 < xentrac> Deku-shrub: you can run a website on a Raspberry Pi Zero; you don't need an "organization" :)
10:53 < xentrac> I am aware that you are kidding but the keyword filters may not be so forgiving
10:53 < docl> isn't the hip new term "swarm"?
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10:55 < xentrac> hmm, I hadn't seen http://maradydd.livejournal.com/496085.html before that I can remember
10:55 < xentrac> .title
10:55 < yoleaux> A Biopunk Manifesto - Radio Free Meredith
10:58 < xentrac> oh shit, Ian Murdock died: https://blog.docker.com/2015/12/ian-murdock/
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11:01 < CaptHindsight> what happened to azcobiotech.com? the site has been down
11:02 < CaptHindsight> have they disappeared?
11:02 < kanzure> azcobiotech got acquired a year ago (or more?), maybe they don't have any sysadmin on staff
11:02 < kanzure> they might also be unaware
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11:02 < docl> not exactly new in internet years, but presumably no more than 5 or so years old http://falkvinge.net/2011/08/01/swarmwise-what-is-a-swarm/
11:03 < CaptHindsight> they sold the liquid reagents for the inkjet
11:03 < Deku-shrub> docl - I have that book!
11:03 < CaptHindsight> there are still a few others
11:03 < kanzure> azcobiotech is still around, their site is just down, i think
11:03 < kanzure> someone needs to phone them up and tell them about their outage
11:04 < kanzure> they probably don't monitor their site's uptime
11:04 < docl> Deku-shrub: I figured you'd be familiar with the falkvingean stuff :)
11:04 < Deku-shrub> I have met him
11:04 < CaptHindsight> they must not count on website orders or they would have noticed by now
11:04 < Deku-shrub> he is a good speaker, despite the pirate movement not going from strength to strength
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11:06 < CaptHindsight> did BioCurious in Sunnyvale turn down hosting the POSAM?
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11:06 < xentrac> hmm, actually Ian seems to have killed himself
11:06 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: i wouldn't offer that to biocurious
11:07 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: there's way too much internal drama at biocurious
11:07 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: also they have budget problems, revenue problems, and no expertise to debug the machine as far as i know.
11:07 < kanzure> CaptHindsight: btw, hosting the machine isn't quite the problem at the moment....... getting the thing to work is the first priority. and part of that is finding people who know more chemistry than i do.
11:07 < CaptHindsight> was just looking at their bio-printer website
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11:07 < kanzure> i think juul worked on that project
11:07 < kanzure> juul: ping
11:09 < CaptHindsight> I'm going to build a printer with femtoliter size drops
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11:11 < TMA> Deku-shrub: I think that your assessment of the channel members as an organization is somewhat misguided: a litmus test for you: do you consider yourself as a member of this "organization"? On the contrary the diyhpl wiki is a wiki that might warrant an entry in http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Transhumanist_wikis, provided that it meets hpluspedia's notability policy (or some equivalent thereof)
11:12 < xentrac> how big is a normal inkjet droplet?  several picoliters apparently: http://www.fkf.mpg.de/429741/subfemtoliter-inkjet
11:12 < Deku-shrub> TMA - I already added it to the wiki list
11:13 < Deku-shrub> I could create a subgroup of 'organisations that refuse to be called as such' instead if you like?
11:13 < TMA> Deku-shrub: sorry, I have missed it entirely
11:13 < CaptHindsight> xentrac: it varies from 1-80pl for most consumer inkjet printers
11:14 < CaptHindsight> canon and epson have <$200 inkjets with down to 1pl drops
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11:17 < kanzure> xentrac: CaptHindsight has offered to build us the dna synthesis machine if i supply the moolah :-)
11:17 < kanzure> xentrac: project is held up while i find chemistry people to help iron out design bugs, e.g. CaptHindsight cannot sit around debugging the machine's chemistry, so i want to hire someone else to do that.
11:17 < CaptHindsight> I moving ahead on my own
11:18 < kanzure> so the offer is rescinded? i know the scheduling is out of whack now, but....
11:18 < CaptHindsight> the chemistry is not a problem, lots of variations
11:18 < kanzure> how is it not a problem?
11:19 < kanzure> getting the material choices wrong is a huge setback
11:19 < kanzure> (for example)
11:19 < CaptHindsight> the problem has been patents, nit the chemistry
11:19 < kanzure> oh, i am willing to pay for this despite the existence of patents, i'm fine with that
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11:20 < CaptHindsight> I'll ping you when it's up
11:20 < chris_99> do patents apply if you're DIYing something out of interest?
11:20 < kanzure> patent law can be twisted to do just about anything
11:20 < chris_99> (something not for sale)
11:20 < kanzure> yes, patent laws can be used in litigation even if you are not selling something
11:20 < chris_99> ah
11:20 < CaptHindsight> chris_99: yeah, and patents are used just to block innovation
11:21 < CaptHindsight> they never have to go into production or even build a working model
11:21 < xentrac> CaptHindsight: cool, thanks!
11:22 < xentrac> patent laws are hard to apply against things that are done in private
11:22 < CaptHindsight> heh, yeah
11:22 < TMA> recently the rightsholders can get the patent even without disclosure of the invention (because the disclosure is so vague that it does not describe anything more than an outline of an idea)
11:22 < xentrac> it's common for research labs, for example, to try a patented invention internally, for example in order to patent improvements on it or in order to test it against unpatented alternatives
11:23 < CaptHindsight> if you can't control the profits from the invention you block others from doing the same
11:24 < CaptHindsight> it's like 5 year olds
11:24 < CaptHindsight> if they can't have the ball then nobody else can either
11:24 < chris_99> heh
11:25 < chris_99> have you played around with REing the piezo heads of printers? (assuming you are using piezo heads)
11:26 < Deku-shrub> This is good - https://i.imgur.com/HLoxjio.jpg
11:26 < CaptHindsight> I know how they are built
11:26 < CaptHindsight> chris_99: I have NDA access to most of the printheads on the market
11:27 < chris_99> ooh neat :)
11:27 < CaptHindsight> what they mostly keep secret is the data protocol
11:28 < chris_99> ah
11:29 < CaptHindsight> well they also keep the mechanical specs secret but you can measure just about everything
11:29 < CaptHindsight> even nozzle dia and spacing
11:29 < chris_99> how would you measure nozzle dia out of interest?
11:29 < CaptHindsight> they even patent waveforms from driving the piezos
11:30 < CaptHindsight> microscope
11:30 < chris_99> ah makes sense
11:30 < CaptHindsight> from/for
11:31 < CaptHindsight> which is interesting since you can RE the IO and the waveforms
11:31 < CaptHindsight> so they could still file an infringement suit against you for using their waveform
11:31 < chris_99> darn
11:32 < CaptHindsight> fun
11:33 < CaptHindsight> some heads store the waveform in flash
11:34 < CaptHindsight> so you just send the control signal to fire and a microcontroller outputs the pulse
11:34 < chris_99> i'm not sure what the technical name is for the container that has the cartridges and heads,  but generally is the printer feeding analog signals to that part, or.. is it feeding digital and the analog conversion is done close to the piezo
11:34 < xentrac> CaptHindsight: wow, congratulations.  the printheads speak a data protocol?
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11:35 < CaptHindsight> chris_99: depends on the head, Epson is piezo with a cartridge
11:36 < CaptHindsight> most piezo don't use a cartridge they get bulk fed from a bottle
11:36 < xentrac> I figured they just had piezos driven by wires (and that was why they had such a large number of contacts)
11:36 < CaptHindsight> most other consumer inkjets are thermal
11:36 < xentrac> I imagine piezo is more versatile
11:36 < CaptHindsight> most piezo heads have internal drivers
11:36 < xentrac> I had no idea
11:37 < xentrac> so the waveform is generated internally and you don't have to worry about the patent? ;)
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11:38 < CaptHindsight> xentrac: but the head needs to be programmed
11:38 < CaptHindsight> so you'd need to find a head that already has the waveform stored in flash
11:39 < CaptHindsight> and the waveform will vary slightly based on the fluid being jetted
11:39 < CaptHindsight> Epson doesn't store a waveform
11:40 < CaptHindsight> you send it nozzle on/off for each row and analog firing pulse
11:40 < CautiousNarwhal> What chu guys talking about?
11:41 < CaptHindsight> inkjet printheads
11:42 < chris_99> do you know what voltage range epson heads use out of interest, for the analog signal?
11:42 < CaptHindsight> the printhead vendors also have licensing deals with printer makers...
11:42 < CaptHindsight> so they want to know how the printhead is going to be used
11:43 < CaptHindsight> they may get a million (or few) a year to corner a certain market like wide format graphics or labels
11:44 < CaptHindsight> chris_99: I forget off the top my head but ~90V comes to mind
11:44 < chris_99> ah interesting, fairly high then
11:48 < CaptHindsight> chris_99: the older Epson head in the POSAM was ~30V
11:49 < CaptHindsight> "The clocking frequency used here is 500 kHz, though 3 MHz is possible. Digital signals are TTL- compatible and active high. The piezoelectric drive signal resembles a trapezoidal waveform, rising from 0V to 28V in 5μs, holding at 28V for 5μs, stepping up to 30V for 10μs, and falling back to 0V linearly over 20μs."
11:50 < chris_99> interesting!
11:50 < CaptHindsight> we drive some piezos up to 200V
11:51 < CaptHindsight> and at high speeds >100khz
11:51 < CaptHindsight> so you get into some fancy high voltage opamp drivers
11:52 < chris_99> ah, do the piezos themselves not draw that much current i guess?
11:53 < xentrac> piezos are basically capacitive devices
11:53 < xentrac> the leakage current through a piezoelectric crystal is very small indeed
11:54 < CaptHindsight> yeah you're driving capacitive loads at high frequency and voltage
11:54 < CaptHindsight> so it's high instantaneous currents
11:55 < xentrac> natural macroscopic electrical phenomena mostly fall into the categories of electromagnetic (<100V, >100 millicoulombs) and electrostatic (>1000V, <1 microcoulomb) with the occasional spectacular exception like lightning
11:55 < xentrac> piezoelectricity is on the electrostatic side
11:56 < xentrac> (consequently electromagnetic phenomena tend to happen at <1kHz and electrostatic at >1MHz)
11:56 < xentrac> bridging the gap has involved a lot of human effort over the last couple of centuries
11:57 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=229ee226 Bryan Bishop: include link about transaction fee estimation >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/transaction-fee-estimation/
12:00 < CaptHindsight> lets say you have 1nF per piezo and 1200 nozzles
12:01 < CaptHindsight> you can easily require 12A per head at 40V
12:01 < chris_99> wow, are there m(any) op-amps that give that?
12:02 < CaptHindsight> 480W op-amp
12:03 < kanzure> i think you mean (m)any
12:04 < xentrac> pitnicking
12:04 < chris_99> i do heh
12:04 < kanzure> true :-)
12:04 < xentrac> so I see why they have internal drivers
12:05 < xentrac> presumably internally they have a big capacitor so you don't have to feed them a big spiky current
12:05 < CaptHindsight> no, you do
12:05 < xentrac> really? 12 amps average but more like 120 amps at peak?
12:06 < CaptHindsight> the big capacitance is from 1200 nozzles firing at once
12:06 < CaptHindsight> or it could be just one nozzle...
12:06 < xentrac> sure, but I mean I would expect a big bypass cap on the power pins of the driver chip
12:06 < CaptHindsight> or any combo from line to line
12:07 < CaptHindsight> the heads with lots of nozzles won't have an internal driver
12:10 < xentrac> just 1200 pins you have to feed the full-current waveform into?  doesn't that result in a lot of crosstalk?
12:12 < CaptHindsight> depends on the head design. most of the crosstalk is in shared wall designs like Xaar
12:12 < CaptHindsight> you won't see much with Dimatix, Kyocera or RPSA
12:25 < FourFire> kanzure, thoughts on http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1200/RR1231/RAND_RR1231.pdf ?
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12:28 < kanzure> FourFire: major red flag is the document does not contain a mention of "sybil resistance" or "sybil attack"
12:28 < kanzure> i also don't see a mention of selfish mining
12:29 < AdrianG> so are you saying they didnt do their homework?
12:29 < kanzure> i see coinjoin mentioned but not coinswap or any of the other schemes
12:29 < kanzure> they do however mention SNARKs, that's kinda nice i guess, but they don't mention the vntinyram vulnerability
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12:31 < kanzure> they mention hashrate cartel formation, so at least they are aware of that....
12:31 < kanzure> and denial-of-service stuff......
12:33 < kanzure> 51% is sorta overstating it
12:33 < kanzure> meh. i think better vulnerabilities are more well-known already.
12:33 < kanzure> okay that is my assessment.
12:33 < FourFire> > however, a lot of this is moot because of (undisclosed reasons that would make everyone smile so hard they would die)
12:33 < FourFire> >i highly encourage everyone to always grab the logs
12:33 < FourFire> I'm smiling pretty hard
12:37 < FourFire> > andares> Fortunately, all the malicious lone wolves have been stupid or not technically inclined
12:37 < FourFire> > "The minimum IQ required to destroy the world falls by one per year"
12:40 < kanzure> the earth does not ask you what your iq is just before you destroy it
12:41 < FourFire> Deku-shrub, Hi, your chart is missing fans of Artifical biology (should be inside self modificationists)
12:42 < Deku-shrub> the outer most section?
12:42 < Deku-shrub> also I don't really know what it means to be fan of artificial biology, could you fill me in?
12:45 < FourFire> > <AdrianG> i am convinced that everyone who self-medicates in hopes of improving one self in some way - is transcending their current condition.
12:45 < FourFire> > anyone who wears shoes
12:45 < FourFire> >transhuman
12:45 < Deku-shrub> my collegue who wears glasses happily calls himself a cyborg :)
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12:52 < JayDugger> FourFire, skip most of the RAND report and read  pages 67-70. Then look at the price tag on the back cover.
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13:02 < CautiousNarwhal> Have any of you successfully built a god helmet?
13:03 < kanzure> superkuh was working on an reptitive transcranial magnetic stimulation device at some point, but i don't recall anything abou a helmet.
13:04 < CautiousNarwhal> Same thing you just put it on a helmet so it can be a long lasting effect
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13:04 < CautiousNarwhal> I want to build a transcranial magnetic stimulation device but have no idea where to start
13:04 < superkuh> Do you have experience with high voltage?
13:04 < chris_99> ben krasnow built one
13:05 < kanzure> you should also consider ultrasound instead of magnetism
13:05 < superkuh> I second kanzure's suggestion.
13:05 < CautiousNarwhal> Ultrasound stimulation? Never heard of that being used
13:06 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/
13:06 < FourFire> CautiousNarwhal, if you aren't going to start immediately, look into OpenBCI's tDCS shield
13:06 < FourFire> should be purchaseable about 8 months into 2016...
13:07 < FourFire> I don't know anything about TMS.
13:10 < CautiousNarwhal> Radical! thanks guys
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13:18 < CautiousNarwhal> So whats the benefits of using ultrasound over magnetics?
13:18 < kanzure> no high voltage
13:19 < CautiousNarwhal> Makes sense
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13:36 < superkuh> You're more likely to kill yourself building a TMS device and more likely to damage your brain with ultrasound.
13:36 < superkuh> Ultrasound can also be used far easier in arrays for deep brain stimulation.
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13:37 < superkuh> With TMS you're always going to get peak induced field right on the outside.
13:37 < superkuh> No matter what you do array wise.
13:38 < CautiousNarwhal> Lol choices killing myself or damaging my brain
13:40 < chris_99> CautiousNarwhal, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUW7dQ92yDU
13:41 < chris_99> (apparently his day job was working with TMS though)
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13:42 < kanzure> .title
13:42 < yoleaux> Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation project - part 1 - YouTube
13:43 < kanzure> ultrasound brain damage can be prevented by not ultrasounding your own brain- just use chunks of grocery store meat or something.
13:43 < kanzure> not all brain damage is bad
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14:07 < Diablo-D3> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/30/ian_murdock_debian_founder/
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14:28 < CautiousNarwhal> Just noticed this iirc doesnt have a subreddit
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14:56 < eudoxia> people here are philosophically opposed to reddit
14:57 < kanzure> thank you.
14:57 < Deku-shrub> http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Reddit
14:58 < eudoxia> >tfw the hpluspedia and my/colin's h+ wiki project didn't pan out
14:58 < kanzure> most redditors get banned, they tend to have broken ideas and i don't have time to fix that
14:58 < Deku-shrub> you made the first humanity plus wiki did you? I was wondering about that
14:58 < eudoxia> not the first
14:59 < eudoxia> the first *good* one
14:59 < eudoxia> http://wiki.transhumani.com/ those were the days
14:59 < kanzure> hplusroadmap wiki was better than all the rest
14:59 < Deku-shrub> can you contribute this h+pedia? :)
14:59 < eudoxia> sure why not
14:59 < eudoxia> i was really proud of the whole brain emulation article, god damn, that was quality
14:59 < eudoxia> too bad you can't see it because the pages don't render anymore
14:59 < kanzure> this one was okay http://diyhpl.us/wiki/nanotech/molecular-manufacturing/
15:00 < eudoxia> i think i never finished converting it from wiki markup
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15:01 < Deku-shrub> is there a history of that H+ logo? I have not seen it before
15:01 < eudoxia> Deku-shrub: roughly, I was on IRC with Aurelius_Home and he said 'we ought to have a logo'
15:01 < eudoxia> I nodded, wisely
15:01 < eudoxia> and put that crap together in Inkscape
15:02 < eudoxia> it's the hbar character (ħ) but stretched or something, I don't know where I left the .svg
15:02 < eudoxia> he put it in a hexagon because hexagons=future
15:03 < Deku-shrub> TPUK has a hexagon
15:03 < Deku-shrub> here is a list of H+logos http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Category:Transhumanist_iconography
15:03 < Deku-shrub> and extended jargon! http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/H%2B
15:04  * Deku-shrub likes documented things
15:04 < eudoxia> I like this wiki
15:04 < eudoxia> it has far more content than our old wiki
15:04 < Deku-shrub> hurrah
15:05 < Deku-shrub> there are actually a couple of futurist wikis with more general content, I am in touch with both of their owners to steal them, their users and their content
15:05 < Deku-shrub> good response so far
15:05 < eudoxia> that is a good approach
15:05 < eudoxia> I believe we didn't really push the pedal to the metal on the advertising department
15:06 < Deku-shrub> well the transhumanist community literally won't build itself
15:06 < eudoxia> what do you mean
15:06 < Deku-shrub> need lots of people using it as a read-only resource before people will edit and contribute too
15:06 < eudoxia> ah yes
15:07 < Deku-shrub> I mean transhumanists are very disorganised with only small pockets of activity and large alliances of vapour
15:07 < eudoxia> i saw people link to it a couple of times in the googlies
15:07 < eudoxia> with ye olde "example.com" -site:example.com trick
15:07 < Deku-shrub> cool
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15:09 < Deku-shrub> what's the difference between eudoxia and http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Eudoxa ?
15:09 < eudoxia> i'm a person and that's a swedish think thank that Anders Sandberg was/is a member of
15:10 < eudoxia> I assure you I am not an AGI created by said think-tank
15:10 < chris_99> hehe
15:10 < pompolic> nice try AGI
15:11 < eudoxia> you didn't see nothing
15:11 < eudoxia> so anyways
15:11 < Deku-shrub> apparently it's still a thing depite having no working website so I am confused on that point
15:11 < eudoxia> there's lots of stuff to rescue from the transhumani.com wiki
15:12 < eudoxia> I had a lot of good QuteMol renderings of mechanosynthetic tooltips I want to grab
15:12 < Deku-shrub> oh I see it's there in the view-source
15:12 < eudoxia> but I can't find the files ;_;
15:12 < Deku-shrub> looking at http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Special:AllPages
15:12 < eudoxia> a number of these were basically just titles
15:12 < eudoxia> I never wrote the dyson sphere article
15:13 < Deku-shrub> I prefer red links over empty pages
15:13 < eudoxia> I wrote the officially authorized kanzure bio ):3 http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Bryan_Bishop&action=edit
15:13 < Deku-shrub> because that way you can work out what pages are worth writing because they have lots of incoming red links
15:13 < eudoxia> that is probably better approach that 'make a one-sentence stub'
15:13 < eudoxia> 'just pretend we have content'
15:14 < Deku-shrub> I am willing to import/merge all the content right now, may I?
15:14 < kanzure> eudoxia: btw i dropped out of university at some point. probably 2010 or earlier.
15:14 < kanzure> also i worked in three labs for some reason, not one.
15:15 < Deku-shrub> is 'Diy transhumanism' synonymous with 'Biohacking'?
15:15 < kanzure> the people over at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio would probably disagree
15:15 < eudoxia> Deku-shrub: sure go ahead, mind you there are some templates i made
15:16 < eudoxia> kanzure: I will correct it when Deku-shrub imports it to hpluspedia
15:18 < Deku-shrub> http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Bishop
15:18 < CautiousNarwhal> Opposed to voat too?
15:19 < Deku-shrub> CautiousNarwhal - I am trying to get a decent handle on transhumanists on Reddit and get them organised, some info here http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Reddit
15:20 < kanzure> why are you trying to do that
15:20 < Deku-shrub> if you are going to tell me it's a waste of time I won't explain :p
15:21 < CautiousNarwhal> Voat is cool too
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15:24 < AdrianG> are most transhumanists total individualists?
15:25 < eudoxia> Deku-shrub: thanks for doing this btw. I tried to set up a local MediaWiki and import the content manually to update some things, but I failed miserably. This is going to be a great help
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15:26 < Deku-shrub> you can watch recent changes as I import things http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
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15:27 < eudoxia> ah yes there's an article on furries
15:27 < eudoxia> it's good to be well-rounded
15:27 < Deku-shrub> we have a furry editor so...
15:27 < Deku-shrub> apparently there is posthumanist furries
15:28 < eudoxia> i think the h+ fiction article was pretty good
15:28 < eudoxia> had a good collection of books and short stories
15:28 < eudoxia> lots of cover images that probably violated copyright law
15:28 < eudoxia> actually most of that wiki probably violated copyright law
15:28 < Deku-shrub> fair use covers reviews :)
15:29 < eudoxia> yes
15:29 < eudoxia> not so sure about e.g. literally all the other pictures that weren't reviews
15:30 < eudoxia> we had a really cavalier copyright policy, partying like it has 1929
15:30 < Deku-shrub> btw I don't allow subheadings without content or 'write me' placeholders, they will be removed and maybe placed on the talk pages as notes
15:30 < eudoxia> yes sure that's fine
15:30 < atomical> can we ban |node? he's annoying the fuck out of me with his private messages.
15:30 < Deku-shrub> I have been involved in pirate party uk for 6 years now, you might imagine my perspective :)
15:30 < eudoxia> Deku-shrub: keep on keeping on man
15:31 < atomical> isn't that called digital hoarding?
15:31 < Deku-shrub> I used to hoard data, e.g. downloaded films, but I realised I could download it again faster than I could search a physical collection
15:32 < kanzure> maybe you suck at search?
15:32 < Deku-shrub> labeling is where I can't be bothered
15:32 < Deku-shrub> then I need to keep a digital index of the lables and map it to the physical media
15:32 < atomical> physical collections are for professional hoarders with bad taste
15:32 < eudoxia> after autistically organizing my ~/images/ directory i realized hierarchical filesystems suck and we should all use tagging filesystems
15:32 < atomical> you never find good movies, just a bunch of jackie chan and arnold movies
15:32 < Deku-shrub> I hope to make a fake book case with textured curved book spines in the future
15:33 < eudoxia> also maintaining symbolic links is trrible
15:37  * kanzure looks at the channel
15:37 < kanzure> hplusroadmap is at 99 seconds per second
15:37 < Deku-shrub> where do you think AI reseachers and relevent neurologists fit on my diagram? futurists? http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_futurist_related_ideologies
15:38 < eudoxia> not reaaaaly
15:39 < eudoxia> adjacent experts
15:39 < Deku-shrub> can place them on edges or multiple zones
15:39 < eudoxia> >Mailer returned: Unknown error in PHP's mail() function.
15:39 < eudoxia> thanks MediaWiki
15:39 < docl> where does wanting to make self replicating factories to get the dyson sphere thing rolling put me?
15:39 < Deku-shrub> futurist
15:39 < Deku-shrub> edging post humanist
15:39 < kanzure> i think your classification attempt is evil
15:39 < Deku-shrub> most likely a flavour of transhumanist
15:40 < eudoxia> ehhhh
15:40 < eudoxia> that's a weird ontology
15:40  * Deku-shrub is unstoppable
15:40 < kanzure> well i can certainly ban you
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15:40 < eudoxia> e.g. Eugen Leitl is a transhumanist but he's a pessimist peak-oilist
15:40  * Deku-shrub is almost unstoppable
15:40 < docl> eugen is great, other than that
15:40 < kanzure> ideology is retarded
15:40 < eudoxia> you can want to do the dyson sphere thing and still think collapse and hyperinflation are right around the corner
15:41 < AdrianG> peak oil is indeed a big problem.
15:42 < AdrianG> if we run out of carbon to burn, how can we stave off ice age, and green fertilizer, CO2 for trees/etc/biota?
15:42 < kanzure> an ice age isn't really that bad
15:42 < eudoxia> >mfw MediaWiki can't send email and i can't edit pages without confirming email
15:42 < AdrianG> kanzure: it sucks. you should visit canada in winter.
15:42 < kanzure> you are talking to a bunch of people who would shrug about existing as uploads around a neutron star or something, an ice age is not the end of the world
15:43 < AdrianG> that neutron star upload will take some time.
15:43 < kanzure> eudoxia: that version of mediawiki is old enough for you to go find a working exploit against it.
15:43 < AdrianG> until then, i much prefer not to freeze to death, if possible.
15:43 < kanzure> eudoxia: use an exploit and do what you need to do
15:43 < docl> by my calculations, a dyson sphere takes about 75 years.
15:43 < eudoxia> oh my god kanz, i'm not gonna use an exploit, that's rude
15:44 < kanzure> then i am the rudest of them all
15:44 < eudoxia> hey Deku-shrub can you use your God-like powers of MediaWiki administration to bump me into confirmed users somehow
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15:44 < eudoxia> dis me http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/User:Eudoxia
15:44 < AdrianG> docl: so in the city where I live, a central station has been recently sort of refurbished
15:44 < AdrianG> took 5 years and 2 billion dollars
15:45 < Deku-shrub> autoconfirming not working?
15:45 < eudoxia> it's fucked
15:45 < eudoxia> it can't send me my confirmation email
15:45 < Deku-shrub> I will have to look into that
15:46 < Deku-shrub> I didn't set up the back end of the site btw, it needs some general tech stuff still
15:46 < eudoxia> yeah neither did we, it was some cpanel crap
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15:47 < eudoxia> turned out that was a bad idea :^)
15:47 < kanzure> the guy's a pirate, he's not going to too thoroughly revenge hack you
15:48 < docl> AdrianG: they should have invested that money in self replicating robots instead, obviously :P
15:52 < AdrianG> you could probably launch that entire station into the orbit on that budget.
15:54 < docl> 2.54 x 10^22 square meters is the surface area of a sphere at 0.3 AU. that's a little under 2^75. so you can in principle get there by starting with a rinkydink square meter (10kW of power at that distance) and doubling it once per year.
15:55 < docl> funny thing is, the moon is only 20 doublings less expensive, at 2^55 square meters
15:56 < eudoxia> i've been thinking about replicators
15:56 < eudoxia> shame you would need to use macroscale manufacturing
15:56 < eudoxia> since hydrocarbon mechanosynthesis obviously doesnt work on a world that's a sphere of iron
15:59 < docl> (er, I remembered that wrong. it's more like 2^45.)
15:59 < docl> macroscale should be enough for year-long doubling times though, shouldn't it?
16:00 < eudoxia> yeah, i think so, but still it's a fairly heavy industry you have to replicate, as opposed to a hydrocarbon assembler where you can literally turn the smell of putrefaction into diamonds
16:01 < docl> either way you do it, the first step is likely to be a good quality vacuum chamber I think.
16:02 < eudoxia> i think for DMS you an get by in a shitty vacuum chamber by, as Freitas described, walling off a micro-wide work area (this only works when bootstrapping), and once you have full-blown MNT perfect vacuum chambers are cheap
16:04 < eudoxia> micron*
16:05 < docl> I think MNT is too complicated and little understood. macro machines are all over the place already, with lots of detailed literature about how they work. we can optimize our way to MNT after we secure sufficient resources for this purpose.
16:05 < eudoxia> yeah probably
16:06 < eudoxia> one think I think Merkle and Freitas should work on is: once you have the minimal toolset hanging from your AFM tooltips, where do you go next? ie, step one is build better tips, step two is build a wall around the work area, step three more reactive tips, etc.
16:07 < eudoxia> like a roadmap from the minimal toolset to a computer-controlled hydrocarbon assembler
16:07 < docl> no need to jump straight to Mercury, or even lunar -- could start with c-type asteroids (some fragments of which are probably in near earth orbits, so realtime teleoperation is possible)
16:09 < Deku-shrub> what are the thoughts on Musk being nominated for luddite of the year?
16:09 < eudoxia> clickbait
16:10 < Deku-shrub> I'm wondering whether to write attack articles at the org who did this
16:10 < Deku-shrub> trying to get a more coherant position on AI from transhumanists in general
16:10 < docl> silly imo, he's just repeating what bostrom and so on have been warning about for decades. it's not even new -- IJ Good mentioned the intelligence explosion in 1965.
16:11 < Deku-shrub> he, Gates and Hawking coordinated their message though, they clearly wanted to be heard
16:11 < eudoxia> AI going FOOM is pretty low on my list of worries
16:11 < eudoxia> i'm more worried about piranhas
16:11 < Deku-shrub> I worry a lot about transhumanist PR, mainly this means Zoltan control
16:11 < Deku-shrub> but occasionally things like this
16:12 < eudoxia> haha i know what you mean
16:12 < docl> yudkowsky's whole deal at lesswrong (the reason he wanted to train up rationalists urgently) was mostly about this topic. the new publicity is mostly inspired by bostrom's new book, I think.
16:13 < Deku-shrub> eudoxia - some of those wiki pages are ridiculously long you know
16:13 < eudoxia> yes
16:13 < eudoxia> but specifically which
16:14 < Deku-shrub> sometimes combining research resources with an overview is not the way to go
16:14 < docl> but partly caused by MIRI's rise as an organization, which was related to lesswrong's growth as a community.
16:14 < Deku-shrub> I'll write up an action plan for wikification and copy-editing when I'm done with the raw import
16:14 < eudoxia> when people talk about UFAI and the singularity I just think of this picture https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0062/57/1426207376639.png
16:15 < eudoxia> >metabolic disprivilege
16:17 < Deku-shrub> when H+Pedia has its shit sufficiently together I will spam Less Wrong with it
16:17 < Deku-shrub> today is not that day
16:20 < Deku-shrub> my theory about Dale Carrico is that he thinks all transhumanists are libertarians
16:21 < eudoxia> he is an idiot
16:21 < eudoxia> I was too charitable in that article
16:21 < eudoxia> don't bother porting it
16:21 < Deku-shrub> no I want to get all the critics
16:21 < eudoxia> ok
16:21 < Deku-shrub> because the are nearly all critcising straw men
16:22 < eudoxia> yes i would expect more from a PhD in rhetoric
16:22 < Deku-shrub> even if I had to stuff and mount the straw men myself to illustrate it
16:22 < Deku-shrub> http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Category:Opposition_to_transhumanism
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16:30 < docl> eudoxia: speaking of diamond synthesis, I was discussing this with xentrac a few days ago and it's apparently possible to do CVD diamonds with a relatively moderate vacuum (a sprengel pump can do it). I think it might be possible to design a vacuum chamber based 3d printer that makes microscale stuff out of diamond, if not nanoscale already.
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16:35 < eudoxia> docl: i read the part of the logs, i think
16:35 < eudoxia> that would certainly be an interesting project
16:36 < eudoxia> i wonder if you can do diamond CVD on a germanium surface, and then etch it away
16:36 < eudoxia> so you can get a floating component like a rotor or a bearing
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16:39 < eudoxia_> docl: have you looked into patterned atomic layer epitaxy? this is what zyvex was or is doing and is more or less what you suggest but with an STM
16:40 < eudoxia_> you sweep a diamond surface with an STM tip to pull out the terminating hydrogens, then will the chamber with sylylene gas and it deposits into a new layer. repeat infinitely and you have a machine part, and that's where i heard about using germanium as a base layer for free-floating parts
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16:44 < docl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_vapor_deposition links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_layer_epitaxy
16:45 < docl> here we go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epitaxy
16:47 < eudoxia_> last i heard (2015?) they were having problems with STM imprecision and weird side reactions around the edges of the shapes
16:47 < eudoxia_> i think they're working at room temperature
16:48 < docl> wonder if lower temperatures are needed? of course, the CVD process for diamond growing is a high temperature one.
16:48 < eudoxia_> now that you mention it i'm not sure it's possible at low temperature
16:48 < eudoxia_> hmm
16:49 < eudoxia_> i suppose it depends on how the hydrogen abstraction changes the temperature of the material and what the temperature change associated with the deposition process is like
16:50 < eudoxia_> their latest thing is a video in this """"""""journal"""""""" where they use videos instead of papers #web2.0 #kidz #teen http://www.jove.com/video/52900/atomically-traceable-nanostructure-fabrication
16:51 < docl> could you maybe burst a laser pulse at it to warm up the surface just in time? or use a particle beam to deliver the carbon at high "temperature" to a cold substrate?
16:51 < eudoxia_> i don't know enough about light to answer the first part of that question
16:52 < eudoxia_> though i have often wondered if you could use lasers and electric fields to guide atoms into place, like mechanosynthesis but you don't need to move a million-atom robot arm to deposit one atom
16:54 < docl> maybe use phased array optics to achieve the needed precision?
16:56 < eudoxia_> i am completely ignorant on this so sure, why not
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16:57 < docl> oh, you need to read bryan wowk's article on that.
16:57 < docl> http://www.phased-array.com/1996-Book-Chapter.html
16:57 < docl> .title
16:57 < yoleaux> Phased Array Optics
16:58 < kanzure> optical traps are a thing that exists and they do things
16:58 < eudoxia_> i vaguely remember phased-array optics being this old Drexlerian "can only be built with MNT" concept that sort of became mainstream through regular manufacturing
16:58 < kanzure> .wik optical trap
16:58 < yoleaux> "Optical tweezers (originally called "single-beam gradient force trap") are scientific instruments that use a highly focused laser beam to provide an attractive or repulsive force (typically on the order of piconewtons), depending on the refractive index mismatch to physically hold and move microscopic dielectric objects similar to tweezers." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_trap
16:58 < kanzure> unfortunately this subfield of science is dominated by formidable thor catalogs
16:59 < eudoxia_> http://www.phased-array.com/1996-Book-Chapter.html
16:59 < eudoxia_> >The year is 2020.
16:59 < eudoxia_> yeah I wish buddy
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17:00 < docl> so his speculations about the future *must* have already come true by now, right?
17:00 < eudoxia_> ?
17:00 < docl> I'm kidding
17:01 < eudoxia_> the hundred-micron box of rod logic is a cute anachronism
17:01 < eudoxia_> sort-of retrofuturist
17:01 < kanzure> i think xentrac has one of those
17:02 < eudoxia_> must be hard to wire it up
17:05 < Deku-shrub> Import report: http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/H%2BPedia:Transhumani_merger
17:09 < docl> optical fibers are a really interesting thing from a bootstrap perspective. you start out with these big thick preforms (which can be printed now), then draw them out mechanically, and they get narrowed down to precise diameters measured in nanometers.
17:10 < eudoxia_> Deku-shrub: yey it's up
17:10 < eudoxia_> i'm gonna have to see if i can pull the files
17:12 < eudoxia_> huh
17:12 < eudoxia_> i don't recognize this girl http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Whole_Brain_Emulation#Virtual_Worlds
17:13 < Deku-shrub> I think it pulled from wikipedia commons some how
17:13 < eudoxia_> oh no
17:13 < eudoxia_> i used the filename SL.jpg
17:13 < eudoxia_> for Second Life
17:18 < Deku-shrub> I have a page on Second life :) http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Second_Life
17:18 < Deku-shrub> I installed Second life just to make the page
17:18 < eudoxia_> hah
17:18 < eudoxia_> for the screenshot?
17:18 < eudoxia_> i just pulled something from google
17:19 < Deku-shrub> right, time to sleep
17:19 < docl> http://cgp.anu.edu.au/research-streams/research-spacetech/gracefo/optical-phased-array/
17:19 < CautiousNarwhal> Gnight!
17:19 < Deku-shrub> this is the H+Peida facebook group if you want to join for updates
17:19 < Deku-shrub> https://www.facebook.com/groups/Hpluspedia/1098356076855811/?notif_t=like
17:19 < eudoxia_> good night
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17:25 < eudoxia_> the GRACE video is interesting thanks docl
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17:34 < docl> here's a more general overview of phased arrays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPPAnvJS6c
17:35 < eudoxia_> problem is most photons are pretty big
17:35 < eudoxia_> tiny photons are more expensive to make
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17:57 < CautiousNarwhal> Joined the group
17:59 < kanzure> .title
17:59 < yoleaux> Phased Array Antennas - YouTube
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18:30 < kanzure> .wik gosplan
18:30 < yoleaux> "The State Planning Committee, commonly known as Gosplan (Russian: Госпла́н, pronounced [ɡɐsˈplan]), was the agency responsible for central economic planning in the Soviet Union." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gosplan
18:30 < kanzure> why can't i find any links to any of the actual plans?
18:30 < kanzure> the soviet union was around when the web was invented, come on
18:31 < kanzure> and at least usenet
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19:31 < kanzure> .title http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cne.21974/abstract
19:31 < yoleaux> Equal numbers of neuronal and nonneuronal cells make the human brain an isometrically scaled-up primate brain - Azevedo - 2009 - Journal of Comparative Neurology - Wiley Online Library
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19:39 < kanzure> "Adults of these species retain multipotent (see cell potency) neural stem cells in the subventricular zone of the lateral ventricles and subgranular zone of the dentate gyrus.[319][320]"
19:39 < kanzure> from http://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(08)00134-7 i guess
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19:44 < kanzure> gasp someone bothered to document inputs/outputs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_coeruleus#Inputs
19:44 < kanzure> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_in_the_human_brain#Neural_pathways or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_pathway#Major_neural_pathways
19:47 < kanzure> brain slice images with actual labels and annotation http://brainmaps.org/ajax-viewer.php?datid=2&sname=0400&hname=lateral%20tuberal%20nucleus&hlabel=TU
19:52 < kanzure> http://brainmaps.org/ajax-viewer.php?datid=43&sname=m10a&hname=primary%20somatosensory%20cortex&hlabel=S1
19:54 < kanzure> what was the paper with the manually-created connection diagram from anatomical knowledge?
19:54 < kanzure> it wasn't this one http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Imaging%20human%20connectomes%20at%20the%20macroscale.pdf
19:55 < kanzure> ah here we go,
19:55 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Cognitive%20consilience:%20Primate%20non-primary%20neuroanatomical%20circuits%20underlying%20cognition%20-%202011.pdf
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19:57 < kanzure> wha? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Studying%20cerebellar%20circuits%20by%20remote%20control%20of%20selected%20neuronal%20types%20with%20GABA.pdf
19:58 < kanzure> (zolpidem == ambien)
19:59 < kanzure> the only interesting paper that cites the "cognitive consilience" paper is... adam marblestone's thesis -_-.
20:01 < kanzure> the author got a patent on... intelligence?
20:01 < kanzure> .title https://www.google.com/patents/US20140067740
20:01 < yoleaux> Patent US20140067740 - Computer-implemented simulated intelligence capabilities by ... - Google Patents
20:03 < kanzure> "We introduce a data-driven prediction for laminar projections between any two cortical areas in the human brain. Today, no safe experimental technique is capable of verifying laminar projections in the human. Yet by connecting and integrating previously unconnected research we arrive at very precise hypothesis with significant functional consequences in the human brain."
20:05 < kanzure> https://www.linkedin.com/in/soren-solari-95b996b
20:08 < kanzure> "A unified anatomical theory and computational model of cognitive information processing in the mammalian brain and the introduction of DNA reco codes"
20:09 < kanzure> hmm he hired this person https://github.com/AndrewTSmith
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20:16 < kanzure> the description of his phd thesis for some reason references this totally other thing called "confabulation"
20:16 < kanzure> "Movement relies on the deliberate, smooth, properly sequenced and coordinated, graded, contractions of selected ensembles of discrete muscles. Therefore, the neural circuitry of movement was specialized for this purpose. Soon, a new design possibility emerged: the elaborate neuronal machinery of movement control could be applied to brain tissue itself. In particular, discrete brain structures, modules, emerged that could be controlled ...
20:16 < kanzure> ... exactly like individual muscles.  By manipulating these modules in properly coordinated 'movements' (thought processes), valuable information processing (cognition) could be carried out – thereby further enhancing animal competitive success and diversity."
20:16 < kanzure> http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Confabulation_theory_(computational_intelligence)
20:17 < kanzure> why on earth would anyone use this terminology (symbols? really?)
20:22 < kanzure> "Reviewed by: Dr. Soren Solari, University of California, San Diego, CA" isn't that cheating
20:24 < kanzure> this movement stuff sounds more likely to be an explanation why he keeps falling out of his chair when he tries to think
20:32 < kanzure> did oreilly give any reason for not extending his ocr simulator?
20:47 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20080516082119/http://r.ucsd.edu/
20:48 < kanzure> "The Swartz Foundation for Computational Neuroscience" http://www.theswartzfoundation.org/
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20:51 < kanzure> haha steve jurvetson http://cognitivecomputing2007.berkeley.edu/CognitiveComputing2007Video.htm
20:51 < kanzure> weird how we don't hear so much about the third one (draper2 is running around doing bitcoin things because he wants to be iron man or something)
21:26 < docl> http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/29/10642070/2015-theranos-venture-capital-tech-bubble-disruption
21:36 < kanzure> iirc fenn's criticism was something like "reviewing existing neuroanatomy literature is going to be pointless because only high-resolution connectomics stuff will show the actual relevant connections" (when i first showed him that "cognitive consilience" paper).
21:36 < kanzure> this does not seem entirely defensible
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 31 00:00:51 2015