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09:34 < kanzure> "Temperature and temperament: evidence from a billion tweets" http://ei.haas.berkeley.edu/research/papers/WP265.pdf
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12:13 < delinquentme> does anyone know of CMOS cameras are software-focusing?
12:16 < xentrac> the fabrication technology of the focal plane sensor has nothing to do with the lens mechanics; they are entirely independent
12:17 < xentrac> perhaps you mean "does a choice of CMOS as the focal plane sensor fabrication technology prevent you from using a camera design that captures enough information about the light field to refocus after taking the photo?" and in that case the answer is "no, it does not prevent that"
12:19 < xentrac> AFAIK both Lytro and FlatCam use CMOS sensors, but they could just as easily use CCDs or for that matter a Vidicon, although in the case of FlatCam a Vidicon would sort of defeat the purpose
12:19 < xentrac> what did you mean by your question?
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12:28 < kanzure> 12:25 <+xentrac> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_free_lunch_in_search_and_optimization interesting, the same David Wolpert who just extended Landauer's bound to arbitrary computation proved an interesting theorem about the computational complexity of general optimization problems
12:28 < kanzure> 12:26 <+kanzure> xentrac: http://no-free-lunch.org/
12:28 < kanzure> and http://beacon-center.org/
12:31 < xentrac> delinquentme: can you elaborate?
12:31 < delinquentme> xentrac: simplified: why dont the CMOS cameras I'm looking at have adjustable focal distances
12:31 < delinquentme> or a line saying what their focal distances are
12:32 < delinquentme> im making guesses its because theyve got that lytro effect of ... IDK how it works
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12:38 < xentrac> delinquentme: oh, it's probably because they have very small apertures and fixed-focus lenses, like old point-and-shoot cameras but more so
12:38 < delinquentme> http://www.amazon.com/etomtop-Waterproof-Borescope-Inspection-adjustable
12:38 < delinquentme> Focal distance: 6cm ~ infinite
12:38 < xentrac> right
12:39 < xentrac> Looking for something?
12:39 < xentrac> We're sorry. The Web address you entered is not a functioning page on our site
12:39 < xentrac> (amazon)
12:40 < delinquentme> http://www.amazon.com/etomtop-Waterproof-Borescope-Inspection-adjustable/dp/B014G20JP8/ref=sr_1_86?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1452715648&sr=1-86&keywords=endoscope
12:40 < delinquentme> derps
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12:50 < xentrac> delinquentme: some cheap cameras like this incorporate autofocus logic that using a piezoelectric motor
12:50 < xentrac> US$80 is plenty of budget for that
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12:58 < xentrac> delinquentme: that also looks like a super awesome tool
12:59 < xentrac> thank you :)
13:06 < xentrac> http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html says that for a circle of confusion of 0.012mm (8mm ÷ 640), a focal length of 28mm, an f-stop of f/2.8, and a subject distance of 10 cm, your depth of field should run from 9.97 cm to 10.03 cm (although it doesn't display that correctly)
13:07 < xentrac> so I suspect that either this camera uses an autofocus motor or what the page says about its depth of field and f-stop is false
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14:49 < kanzure> jrayhawk: is there a clever way to mark an individual ikiwiki page as private/public?
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15:00 < jrayhawk> For all three of HTTP access, filesystem access, and git access?
15:05 < kanzure> http
15:05 < kanzure> ideally some ikiwiki-level directive
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15:35 < pasky> people tend to discover NFL theorem and then draw totally unwarranted conclusions from it - beware
15:37 < kanzure> examples?
15:40 < pasky> "machine learning is futile", "life is futile" etc.; in particular, that it's not possible to build a practical universal engine for optimization/estimation/inference
15:42 < Diablo-D3> what is NFL theorem?
15:43 < pasky> 21:28 < kanzure> 12:26 <+kanzure> xentrac: http://no-free-lunch.org/
15:43 < Diablo-D3> oh, derp
15:43 < Diablo-D3> theres no free lunch for anything
15:44 < Diablo-D3> everything is a series of tradeoffs
15:44 < Diablo-D3> the only thing that matters at the end of the day is that did it do what you wanted, and can you deal with the tradeoffs responsibly
15:44 < Diablo-D3> generically, this applies TO EVERYTHING
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15:49 < kanzure> pasky: that's quite the conclusion to extract from no free lunch
15:49 < kanzure> pasky: "hard work is hard" should never be a good reason to resort to nihilism.
15:50 < Diablo-D3> yeah
15:50 < Diablo-D3> because, imo, and I know a lot of people are going to be like BAD DIABLO BAD
15:50 < Diablo-D3> if your excuse that you don't do work is because its hard
15:50 < Diablo-D3> its because you're lazy, not because its hard
15:50 < xentrac> pasky: the great thign about that page is that it begins with Hume's general explanation of the theorem
15:50 < xentrac> which you would hope would keep people from extrapolating too much from it
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15:52 < xentrac> I was surprised (Baader-Meinhof) to discover that the same David Wolpert who recently published the new extension of Landauer's bound had proved the NFL theorem
15:53 < xentrac> Diablo-D3: I think you may be confused about which subject area this theorem pertains to
15:54 < pasky> xentrac: yes, I like that page I think
15:55 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: Im just being an asshole atm.
15:59 < xentrac> oh, okay, never mind me then
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16:01 < Diablo-D3> [06:40:17] <pasky> "machine learning is futile", "life is futile" etc.; in particular, that it's not possible to build a practical universal engine for optimization/estimation/inference
16:01 < Diablo-D3> its just shit like that
16:01 < Diablo-D3> there is nothing that is futile
16:02 < Diablo-D3> futile is a poor man's way of saying difficult
16:02 < Diablo-D3> difficult doesn't mean impossible, it just means difficult
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16:04 < Diablo-D3> from what I saw of that NFL page
16:04 < Diablo-D3> it basically says that in a useful way
16:09 < xentrac> no?
16:09 < Diablo-D3> how no?
16:10 < Diablo-D3> "This paper has three aims. Firstly, to clarify the poorly understood No Free Lunch Theorem (NFL) which states all search algorithms perform equally. Secondly, search algorithms are often applied to program induction and it is suggested that NFL does not hold due to the universal nature of the mapping between program space and functionality space. Finally, NFL and combinatorial problems are examined. When evaluating a candidate solution, it can be d
16:10 < Diablo-D3> iscarded without being fully examined. A stronger version of NFL is established for this class of problems where the goal is to minimize a quantity."
16:11 < Diablo-D3> I understand that as "NFL doesn't work because the 'right tool for the right job' trumps a lot of badly thought out early optimization bullshit"
16:15 < xentrac> well, the NFL theorem doesn't say that anything is difficult.  it says that something is impossible.
16:16 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: yeah, but the NFL theorem is wrong
16:16 < kanzure> xentrac: for implanting cloth under your chest skin, perhaps instead consider bio-compatible plastics
16:16 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: nothing is straight up impossible
16:16 < xentrac> UHMWPE is pretty biocompatible, no?
16:16 < xentrac> Diablo-D3: you might want to look up the definition of "theorem"
16:16 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: it just requires more workarounds for the unwanted side effects
16:17 < Diablo-D3> In mathematics, a theorem is a statement that has been proven on the basis of previously established statements, such as other theorems—and generally accepted statements, such as axioms. A theorem is a logical consequence of the axioms.
16:17 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: I dunno, maybe I just have to read more about NFL
16:18 < Diablo-D3> but if NFL is just a methodology on how to early fail algos and processes based on specific requirements
16:18 < Diablo-D3> "impossible" has a narrowly defined, and more manageable, definition
16:18 < xentrac> it's not
16:18 < Diablo-D3> then *what* is it
16:18 < Diablo-D3> Im not getting that part
16:19 < xentrac> can't hel you
16:19 < xentrac> help
16:19 < xentrac> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomonoff%27s_theory_of_inductive_inference is also relevant
16:23 < Diablo-D3> I've read about that
16:23 < kanzure> why haven't i banned this guy yet
16:24 < superkuh> Because a little noise is useful in terms of stochastic resonance?
16:24  * xentrac ♥ stochastic resonance
16:25 < xentrac> Diablo-D3: I think you're going to have to work a lot harder to understand NFL, because at this point your level of effort is so low that any effort I put into trying to explain it will be wasted
16:25 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: so, if the NFL theorem states that if two algos produce the same results in the same amount of time, they are effectively the same, right?
16:26 < Diablo-D3> s/if//
16:26 < xentrac> no; that's, in a way, a sort of premise on which it's based, not a statement of the result
16:26 < Diablo-D3> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_free_lunch_in_search_and_optimization
16:27 < Diablo-D3> xentrac: I mean, I look at programming and such from the view point of someone who programs, not someone who does math
16:28 < Diablo-D3> ergo, the best code I can write is one that uses the hardware most effectively
16:28 < Diablo-D3> so I don't understand this article in the way that Im pretty sure I was meant to
16:29 < xentrac> or at all
16:29 < xentrac> you can
16:29 < xentrac> it'll be hard
16:29 < Diablo-D3> specialized algos that exploit the strengths of your hardware are largely preferable to generic ones that work well everywhere
16:29 < Diablo-D3> even though they generate the same result
16:30 < Diablo-D3> So... yeah.
16:30 < Diablo-D3> I think this is waaay beyond me.
16:30 < Diablo-D3> Im sorry I asked.
16:31 < xentrac> It starts out beyond all of us.  But we can grow mentally.  There are super cool things out there you can grasp if you try :)
16:32 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, but I swear to God I'm getting stupider
16:32 < Diablo-D3> When I was a kid I went out and read everything I could get my hands on
16:32 < Diablo-D3> And was constantly learning stuff
16:32 < Diablo-D3> And stuff made sense
16:32 < Diablo-D3> Now I read stuff and its like, what the hell, none of this makes any sense
16:32 < Diablo-D3> "I recognize some of these words"
16:33 < Diablo-D3> I wonder if I have early onset brain death.
16:33 < Diablo-D3> I mean, I learned how to program when I was 6 or 7
16:33 < xentrac> More likely you're distracted by things like calling yourself stupid and being afraid of being wrong
16:34 < xentrac> or, I don't know
16:34 < xentrac> girls
16:34 < Diablo-D3> mmmm boobs
16:34 < xentrac> or boys
16:35 < Diablo-D3> "Running an implementation of an algorithm on a computer costs very little relative to the cost of human time and the benefit of a good solution. If an algorithm succeeds in finding a satisfactory solution in an acceptable amount of time, a small investment has yielded a big payoff. If the algorithm fails, then little is lost."
16:35 < Diablo-D3> That paragraph bothers me
16:35 < xentrac> or talking on IRC
16:35 < Diablo-D3> That is basically saying its okay to spend inordinate amounts of time trying to optimize a solution further
16:36 < Diablo-D3> because the potential pay off wrt the loss is acceptable
16:36 < AdrianG> sounds like an argument in favor of letting computers do brute force optimization
16:36 < AdrianG> vs spending human time
16:36 < Diablo-D3> AdrianG: ahh, hrm
16:36 < Diablo-D3> that might be useful
16:36 < Diablo-D3> Ive seen computer-based evolution stuff produce incredibly interesting and optimized results
16:37 < Diablo-D3> like those weird 3D antennas that are compact, look like modern art, and massively out perform anything humans have ever made on our own
16:37 < AdrianG> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-assisted_proof
16:37 < Diablo-D3> but the problem is, it goes back to what I was going to say
16:37 < xentrac> yeah, that's the subject NFL pertains to, Diablo-D3
16:37 < Diablo-D3> as a programmer, Ive learned that defining the problem correctly
16:37 < xentrac> instead of talking more I think I will go see if I can hack together a program to do a particular optimization program I'm interested in though
16:38 < Diablo-D3> is faaaaar more important than optimizing it
16:38 < xentrac> while that is (unlike most of what you've said above!) relevant to the problem we're talking about
16:39 < Diablo-D3> and the problem with a lot of academic brute force optimization work seems the computer keeps finding solutions that do what you want by the rules you gave it, but are not useful solutions because it breaks other constraints you didn't know you had until it broke them
16:39 < xentrac> it turns out that for many real-world problems, even fairly crude definitions can be useful
16:39 < Diablo-D3> which turns into the basic "AI is going to destroy the world" problem
16:39 < xentrac> yes, exploiting bugs in simulations is a constant problem with optimization
16:39 < xentrac> you could consider overfitting as a particularly pervasive instance of that
16:40 < Diablo-D3> oh, like the one time the military tried to teach a computer to see enemy vs friendly tanks
16:40 < Diablo-D3> and it focused on the fact friendly tanks had blue skies, and enemy tanks had cloudy skies
16:40 < Diablo-D3> so a friendly tank and a cloudy sky was deemed an enemy tank
16:41 < xentrac> yes, but they were photos with and without tanks, not friendly and enemy tanks
16:41 < Diablo-D3> oh
16:41 < Diablo-D3> maybe Im misremembering it
16:41 < xentrac> a little
16:41 < Diablo-D3> its been awhile since I read it
16:41 < Diablo-D3> I might be merging two stories too
16:41 < xentrac> that's not exactly overfitting
16:42 < Diablo-D3> well, overfitting to me is its paying attention to variables that don't pertain to the problem
16:42 < xentrac> also it wasn't a computer
16:42 < xentrac> it was a perceptron
16:43 < Diablo-D3> isn't that still ran on a computer of some sorts, though?
16:43 < xentrac> possibly
16:43 < xentrac> the first perceptrons did not run on computers
16:44 < Diablo-D3> yeah, they were like back in the 50s, right?
16:44 < xentrac> yeah
16:44 < Diablo-D3> Yeah, I think I'd consider that an early computer in the sense that ASICs are "computers"
16:45 < Diablo-D3> not in the strict sense of general purpose computing
16:45 < Diablo-D3> actually it wouldnt even be an ASIC would it
16:45 < Diablo-D3> since IC is integrated circuit
16:45 < Diablo-D3> an ASDC? app specific discrete circuit?
16:46 < xentrac> I think the usual term is "circuit"
16:47 < Diablo-D3> I dunno, an average person would see 50s hardware and call it a computer, even though its kinda not one
16:47 < Diablo-D3> and I find that usage acceptable
16:48 < Diablo-D3> aaaand I feel what I just said underlines a lot of problems in intelligence research
16:48 < Diablo-D3> humans rely on a combination of inclusive and exclusive fuzzy pattern recognition
16:49 < Diablo-D3> I have no clue how the hell humans actually function
16:49 < xentrac> really?  you think an average person confronted with a 1950s radio transmitter would call it a "computer"?
16:49 < xentrac> overfitting is not at all the same as "paying attention to variables that don't pertain to the problem"
16:49 < xentrac> although in some cases you can do both
16:50 < Diablo-D3> a 1950s radio transmitter might not be a computer, no
16:50 < xentrac> a 1950s perceptron would look the same to an average person
16:50 < Diablo-D3> although radio transmitters today might be computers
16:51 < Diablo-D3> all the DSP work going on and such
16:52 < xentrac> Dreyfus tells the tanks story on p.4 of http://www.jefftk.com/dreyfus92.pdf in 1992
16:52 < xentrac> I haven't been able to find an earlier source; he might have invented the sotry
16:52 < xentrac> story
16:53 < xentrac> maybe we should ask him
16:53 < Diablo-D3> yeah thats the story!
16:53 < Diablo-D3> thats the one I was trying to think of, yeah, I misremembered it
16:54 < Diablo-D3> I dunno, this may be overly simplistic, but I don't true AI can happen until we can teach it concepts the way humans understand them
16:55 < Diablo-D3> an AI that can't understand the way the world looks to us may not produce behavior that we can actually understand as intelligent, although we'll see it is complex
16:56 < Diablo-D3> which is also why I find depictions of aliens in scifi weird
16:56 < Diablo-D3> true alien intelligence should be completely incomprehensible to us
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16:57 < Diablo-D3> we would not recognize them as intelligent except as a purely abstract notion of the concept
16:58 < Diablo-D3> like, ant colonies, as a whole, may fit some definition of intelligence
16:59 < Diablo-D3> but no individual ant is intelligent
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16:59 < nmz787_i> xentrac: FWIW that borescope looks almost exactly like one I paid around $20 with no active focus, underwhelming LED light power, and seemingly fake specs on the resolution
16:59 < nmz787_i> I would tell delinquentme too, but he is gone
17:00  * Diablo-D3 feels like he should get a shovel out, digging a hole would be faster with it
17:00 < nmz787_i> I was super excited that I would be able to use it with my phone via usbOTG (which works), but practically it isn't useful because the LEDs suck so bad
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17:00 < Diablo-D3> nmz787_i: so start hacking it and replace the LED? ;)
17:00 < nmz787_i> maybe it would work in a small enclosed environment like a lock or something
17:01 < nmz787_i> Diablo-D3: I bet it is all hermetically sealed, so it might rip apart if I tried anything
17:01 < Diablo-D3> oh, that'd suck
17:02 < nmz787_i> shoving it past an electrical socket into a wall, I get about 2 or 3 inches of visibility from the LEDs
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18:13 < nmz787_i> kanzure: are you living in/around NYC now?
18:18 < maaku> he is not
18:36 < nmz787_i> ah, no potential for genspace visits or such then
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19:14 < cluckj> nmz787_i, what about genspace visits?
19:16 < nmz787_i> oh just thought kanzure might have been in the neighborhood
19:17 < nmz787_i> there is also something sebastian cocioba has been up to that looks like is getting a lot of steam put into the project
19:18 < cluckj> oh?
19:18 < nmz787_i> I just see lots of talk and pics sometimes
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19:24 < cluckj> oh wow looks like bosslab has a new website
19:26 < cluckj> and they acquired dennis :)
19:27 < xentrac> hmm, before reading http://lesswrong.com/lw/dhg/an_intuitive_explanation_of_solomonoff_induction/ I had somehow missed that Solomonoff induction goes beyond being merely infeasibly slow; it's actually uncomputable
19:28 < xentrac> I guess now I should read AIXI-tl
19:30 < cluckj> I need a fucking job that will pay me to do stuff at genspace and bosslab again, that was really nice :/
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19:50 < kanzure> i don't think i'm allowed in genspace
19:50 < cluckj> I don't think you're banned
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20:19 < maaku> xentrac: don't waste your time on AIXItl
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22:49 < xentrac> maaku: that's interesting — I didn't expect anyone to say that.  what's wrong with it?
23:05 < justanotheruser> ^I'm curious as well
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 14 00:00:04 2016