--- Log opened Sun Jan 17 00:00:07 2016
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00:57 < lkjhfr> also, your scrollback hasn't been pushed out by messages
00:58 < lkjhfr> https://irssi.org/documentation/settings/#scrollback_time
01:00 < lkjhfr> this means that scrollback is shrinking all the time, even if people aren't posting messages
01:01 < lkjhfr> it shrinks down to scrollback_lines after scrollback_time
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01:21 < kanzure> accelerating expansion of the scrollback does not bode well for cosmological outcomes
01:33 < lkjhfr> for five hours after 500 messages after the message from pasky that message wasn't yet 24 hours old, which means that it was pushed out by time
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02:28 < lkjhfr> kanzure, is it because we can't use it as an argument against flooding?
02:57 < archels> gotta love it when people include the words "an accidental finding" in the title of their paper
02:59 < archels> .title http://www.hoajonline.com/stemcells/2054-717X/2/3
02:59 < yoleaux> Fulltext | Reversal of hair greying following autologous adipose mesenchymal stem cell transplantations: a coincidental finding | Stem Cell Biology and Research
03:09 < justanotheruser> maaku: is there any reason I should be skeptical of opencog? I am looking into it's design, and I think it's kind of beautiful
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03:12 < justanotheruser> I am a bit skeptical about all its moving parts.
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03:34 < archels> .gc "deterministic.chaos"
03:34 < yoleaux> archels: Sorry, that command (.gc) crashed.
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04:00 < FourFire> > What about those alien megastructures? Schafer is unconvinced. “The alien-megastructure idea runs wrong with my new observations,” he says, as he thinks even advanced aliens wouldn’t be able to build something capable of covering a fifth of a star in just a century.
04:00 < FourFire> I find that claim to be too conservative...
04:02 < FourFire> The cryonics possibilities in europe were rather unfortunate last time I checked
04:03 < FourFire> > <maaku> i wonder if one could reasonably harvest resources to create computronium from coronal mass ejections
04:03 < FourFire> with fusion, everything is possible
04:03 < FourFire> you just need to sacrifice a lot of energy to suppass Iron
04:05 < pasky> xentrac: i have similar feelings about the backlog, but i honestly can't remember, you'll have to take a peek at the logs
04:12 < FourFire> > <Houshalter> I believe that superintelligent humans would likely be bored, depressed, or wire headers. or some combination of them
04:12 < FourFire> The bored, depressed, wireheaders will promptly filter themselves out of the population
04:13 < FourFire> > <Houshalter> maaku, i am. but i won't change inot a different person, even over a thousand years. i will learn a lot, but my brain structure and personality will be about the same
04:13 < FourFire> How old are you?
04:14 < FourFire> Like, how long do you remember being conscious?
04:17 < lkjhfr> i like bored and depressed. much better than stupid and annoying
04:21 < FourFire> > <streety> one issue with unburdening the immune system so it is free to "take care of more useful things" is the hypothesis that this is a primary cause of the increasing incidence of allergies and auto-immune diseases
04:22 < FourFire> there's some resaerch with strong evidence that absence of symbiotic gut bacteria increases allergic reactions
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04:24 < lkjhfr> the ones that constitute dental plaque are the same that are supposedly synbiotic as a gut flora, it doesn't mean that it's good idea to keep them on teeth
04:26 < FourFire> lkjhfr, but maybe we can keep them off teeth and in the gut at the same time?
04:27 < lkjhfr> and those are left on teeth only because people eat processed foods, eating sweet fruits like apples actually cleans the teeth
04:56 < cluckj> hygiene hypothesis
05:07 < Diablo-D3> well except the problem is
05:07 < Diablo-D3> we keep eating high sugar foods, which causes bacterial growth of the wrong kind of bacteria
05:08 < Diablo-D3> and then we compound the problem by using commercial detergents and floruide
05:16 < streety> It is definitely important that the right bacteria be in the right place in the right quantity. Poor oral health causes problems but you don't want to swing too far in the opposite direction either
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07:25 < kanzure> that's strange, i don't ever remember being conscious
07:27 < kanzure> bitfury 16nm asic chip demo video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zPpj1JYw38
07:31 < Diablo-D3> whos fabbing it
07:32 < Diablo-D3> because no one is doing 16nm for small time stuff yet
07:33 < Diablo-D3> all of the 14/16nm stuff is being used by intel, amd, more amd, nvidia, and samsung
07:35 < Diablo-D3> oh and qualcomm for snapdragons
07:36 < Diablo-D3> and the joint intel/micron factory is churning out 16nm flash at that size
07:44 < nsh> i bet i could fabricant 100 nomometers
07:45 < nsh> meanwhile: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4081593/
07:45 < nsh> .title
07:45 < yoleaux> Soma-to-Germline Transmission of RNA in Mice Xenografted with Human Tumour Cells: Possible Transport by Exosomes
07:45 < nsh> all up in your central dogmas, killin' ur 'sumptions
07:45  * Diablo-D3 fabricates 100 omnommeters
07:46 < Diablo-D3> nsh: construct additional pylori
07:46 < nsh> okay, but i'm almost out of pylorum-bricks
07:47 < FourFire> nsh, really?
07:48 < nsh> nah, they're made out of common
07:48 < nsh> .wa total mass of bacteria on earth
07:48 < yoleaux> Earth: weight: bacteria: weight: (data not available)
07:48 < nsh> pft
07:48 < Diablo-D3> heh, probably at least triple digit thousands of tons
07:48 < nsh> ~30-40% of earth-life is microbial
07:49 < nsh> and there's a whole heap of that kicking about
07:49 < nsh> keep that wheel a-turnin
07:49 < FourFire> anyone think there's any point in trying to produce this: http://memory.oyhus.no/ (patent is expired, I know the guy)
07:49 < nsh> .title http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et0998/et0998s8.html
07:49 < yoleaux> ET 9/98: First-ever estimate of total bacteria on earth
07:50 < nsh> FourFire, good luck coding the microprocessor for wear-levelling that....
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07:50 < FourFire> nsh, if it's cheap enough, I figure you could just something stupid like mirror everything internally in the device and test for dead cells upon read
07:51  * nsh nods
07:51 < FourFire> so if it's 10x cheaper, make it 1/3 the price and use the cells
07:51 < nsh> ECCs go a long way
07:51 < FourFire> still, 10s of terabytes of flash in one device...
07:51 < Diablo-D3> "The team thus found that the total amount of bacterial carbon in the soil and subsurface to be yet another staggering number, 5 X 10**17 g or the weight of the United Kingdom."
07:51 < Diablo-D3> but it doesn't say the total weight damnit
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09:06 < lkjhfr> and... all of this carbon is fixed by plants that grow out of soil
09:07 < kanzure> https://petertodd.org/2016/soft-forks-are-safer-than-hard-forks
09:07 < kanzure> http://earlz.net/view/2016/01/16/0717/analyzing-the-56-million-exploit-and-cryptsys-security
09:09 < lkjhfr> i expected that firt link to be about plastic vs metal forks
09:14 < maaku> justanotheruser design no, code yes. They make too many compromises, and the implementation is not self reflective
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12:17 < justanotheruser> The implementation doesn't follow their specification maaku?
12:18 < maaku> justanotheruser: ben goertzel has written a >1k pages book, in two volumes, called "engineering general intelligence". you can find pdfs online
12:19 < justanotheruser> Yes, I have downloaded vol 2
12:19 < justanotheruser> in what sense isn't their implementation self reflective
12:19 < maaku> that outlines "CogPrime" which is an abstract AGI design based on the integrative approach -- a bunch of "narrow AI" algorithms working together in concert on a single shared backbone in order to patchwork-style cover all the bases
12:19 < maaku> that is a solid idea
12:20 < maaku> i take some issue with a few of their implementation choices, e.g. PLN instead of a more accurate probabalistic graph update mechanism a la Pearl
12:21 < maaku> or using DeSTIN instead of the much more capable deep learning tools that are coming out of Google/Hinton
12:21 < maaku> but that's not so important
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12:21 < FourFire> ok, trying to figure out open source, PCIe passthrough virtualization software, being more confused...
12:22 < maaku> the big issue with OpenCog (as a proposed implementation of CogPrime) is that all these algorithms are implemented in C++ and Python in a way that is totally opaque
12:22 < FourFire> so far I've rounded it down to kvm, and Xen(server)
12:22 < maaku> to the running mind that is. it can't self-improve
12:29 < lkjhfr> would it be easy for the ai to self-improve if it didn't know c++ or python in the first place?
12:33 < lkjhfr> or is it about hot-plugging, which not many people even think about these days, not understanding the process of linking
12:38 < maaku> lkjhfr: no i don't mean anything like that. the context you are probably missing is that CogPrime involves shared data structure for its knowledge base, which includes an executable specification
12:38 < maaku> to accomplish evolutionary learning of new programs, for example
12:39 < maaku> the way you would close the loop in cogprime is to implement all these algorithms in that language, within the system
12:39 < maaku> so it can use the same concept-learning techniques to learn better implementations of itself
12:42 < justanotheruser> maaku: The program could have its own source code known though? I don't see why you would need to shove the source code into every openCog application
12:42 < maaku> justanotheruser: sure, that's just the boil-the-ocean approach
12:45 < maaku> justanotheruser: we'd have to take an AI all the way to the level of budding computer scientist in order to reliably make any changes to its own source code
12:46 < pasky> we can't self-improve (in that sense) either, is that really an issue?
12:46 < justanotheruser> whats the problem with that?
12:46 < maaku> whereas the alternative is to represent the AI algorithms within its own concept-learning language, so it learns newer algorithms for itself in the same way that it learns better representations and better classifications
12:46 < maaku> you get a feedback loop very early on that way
12:47 < maaku> (and an architecture like GOLUM is an example of how you would do so with relative safety)
12:47 < xentrac> pasky: it's a significant difference: that's the difference between us staying at the same level of intelligence for three million years and slightly-subhuman artificial intelligences turning themselves into extremely-superhuman ones within a matter of years, months, days, or seconds
12:48 < pasky> but that's not that realistic, is it?
12:49 < maaku> days or seconds was not realistic
12:49 < maaku> but the basic idea is
12:50 < FourFire> ok so apparently Nvidia support is shitty for all alternatives
12:51 < maaku> a hard takeoff on the order of months is plausible in a breakout scenario (low probability anyway), years under controlled circumstances
12:51 < xentrac> nobody knows what is realistic
12:52 < xentrac> and my limited experience programming things that do optimization or search is that apparently small improvements can have surprisingly large effects when they affect the base of an exponential function
12:53 < lkjhfr> it doesn't look like that book is free
12:53 < maaku> xentrac: nonsense. it only takes longer because there's a limiter. what would that limiter be?
12:54 < lkjhfr> does this mean that there is a language that in which programs can be represented which ai will already know?
12:54 < maaku> argument from incredibility is not valid. why would it take longer?
12:54 < maaku> (i know it won't happen in seconds because of computational limits, and not days or weeks because of logistical limits, but why not months?)
12:54 < lkjhfr> s/language that in/language in/
12:55 < maaku> lkjhfr: yes, that is a component of the CogPrime design
12:55 < xentrac> hmm, you seem to be thinking that I think a hard takeoff in months is implausible
12:55 < maaku> it has a built-in programming language called 'combo' -- my own design has a much more expressive VM language, but same principle
12:55 < xentrac> but I was saying the opposite: that a hard takeoff is entirely plausible, and that not only months but even seconds are plausible timescales
12:56 < maaku> xentrac: i thought that's what you said in response to me. i think months is the lower end of plausible but not probable
12:56 < lkjhfr> is that language already designed? how strict is it?
12:56 < maaku> xentrac: eh. you can count the number of cpu/gpu cycles available in 1 day. it's a finite number
12:57 < maaku> and given my familiarity with the types of algorithms involved I highly doubt anything meaningful could be accomplished in that timeframe
12:57 < maaku> i admit that's an argument from gut feeling, but we're talking orders of magnitude difference...
12:57 < xentrac> right. what I can't count is the minimal number of cpu cycles needed to improve an AI algorithm. I am sure your estimate is more informed than mine
12:58 < xentrac> but I think there's an enormous amount of uncertainty
13:00 < maaku> xentrac: for each of the components (e.g. deep learning neural net training, combinatorially complex probabalistic reasoning, etc.) these sorts of things often accomplish single results with hours of work on large clusters of workstations
13:00 < maaku> an AGI self-improvement cycle would involve such work to consider such a change, then equivalent or more work to evaluate changes in various simulated environments
13:01 < maaku> and it will probably consider many options before making a single incremental change, so multiply by some small constant
13:01 < lkjhfr> so... opencog is free, but the book is not
13:02 < maaku> xentrac: add those up and we're already talking about days or a week of effort per cycle
13:04 < maaku> not all improvements will be paradigm shifts, but some will be. we're still talking many weeks, a few months before it surpasses its creators assuming it doesn't break and need to be debugged which is the real most likely outcome
13:04 < lkjhfr> it's almost like linux and minix :)
13:04 < xentrac> yeah, things being broken is always the mots likely outcome :)
13:05 < maaku> so this back of the envelope calculation arrives at a number that is six to seven orders of magnitude more than "seconds"
13:05 < maaku> which is why I don't give much credence to hard takeoffs
13:06 < maaku> that changes as computing advances though (an argument for doing AGI now, not later)
13:07 < xentrac> you could just as easily say that the fact that deep-learning NN training takes hours across a large cluster is an argument that AGI is not yet practical
13:07 < maaku> In 30 years that number will have reduced to seconds.
13:08 < FourFire> ended up giving up, going to try KVM Lubuntu Host, Lubuntu Guest
13:08 < xentrac> you need either much better hardware (your 30 years) or much faster software to get that number down before seconds-scale hard takeoff is possible, agreed
13:08 < lkjhfr> but by then there will be invented new algorithms that everyone will want to embed in theirs ai
13:08 < xentrac> but the much faster software might be possible
13:09 < FourFire> maaku, if you can make an application well optimized then you might be able to reduce the problem to ASICs
13:10 < FourFire> of FPGAs
13:10 < FourFire> current old lithography is only going to get cheaper
13:11 < xentrac> much faster hardware in much less than 30 years is also conceivable but less likely
13:12 < maaku> xentrac: getting a little off topic, but this is the core of what bugs me about MIRI and FAI x-risk activists generally. The argument is made that we should stop work on AGI and instead work on solving the much harder FAI -
13:13 < lkjhfr> http://goertzel.org/EGI_vol1..pdf.zip http://goertzel.org/EGI_vol2..pdf.zip
13:13 < maaku> - but the 30 years spent doing that would mean there's no capacity left for safe engineering
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13:13 < maaku> If you are worried about AGI x-risk, then do what you can to get AGI written -now-, ASAP
13:17 < drethelin> you seem to have completely missed the point
13:18 < xentrac> I understand your argument, and it may be correct
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13:19 < xentrac> it is contingent on hardware improvement being at least a necessary, if not a sufficient, AGI success factor
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13:21 < maaku> drethelin: me? perhaps so
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13:23 < Alcyius> anyone want to watch Mr. Nobody?
13:24 < lkjhfr> fun fact: there are over 5000 links to pdfs in the logs
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13:24 < Alcyius> Psuedo time travel film about the last man to die in a future where everyone is immortal
13:24 < Alcyius> https://rabb.it/r/jy5im1?i=xW9ERLCMhjtY
13:24 < Alcyius> Link if anyone's interested
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13:39 < streety> lkjhfr: what are the most common topics? or domains?
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13:41 < maaku> Alcyius another fun movie is "the man from earth"
13:42 < Alcyius> Has anyone here read Stranger from a Strange Land
13:42 < Alcyius> My mom keeps trying to get me to read it
13:42 < Diablo-D3> its a very good book
13:43 < Diablo-D3> I read it when I was 12
13:44 < lkjhfr> streety, most were posted by kanzure, so i'd guess it would be something about treating and enhancing humans
13:46 < streety> might be interesting to try and extract topics
13:47 < streety> It seems we occasionally focus on particular areas for a while then change focus.
13:51 < maaku> That's a weird book for your mom to push.
13:52 < lkjhfr> streety, i'm not sure it would be about treating and enhancing humans, there is just so many different things
13:52 < streety> yes, the conversation does touch on a wide variety of topics
13:53 < lkjhfr> pdftk could read the titles
13:53 < lkjhfr> something would be needed to grep bare links to make download list for wget
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13:58 < cluckj> stranger in a strange land?
13:58 < maaku> Maybe your mom is less conservative than mine :)
13:59 < lkjhfr> i just launched wget
13:59 < lkjhfr> this will crash the whole internet, i am sure of it
13:59 < Alcyius> maaku, my mom was a pro domme
13:59 < Alcyius> My mom is about as not conservative as you can get
14:00 < maaku> Most of Heinlein's books deal with, uh, non traditional families/relationships. Stranger in a strange land in particular.
14:00 < maaku> Heh, cool.
14:01 < maaku> Oh had to Google what that meant. Your mom must be awesome.
14:01 < lkjhfr> wget won't do, i need something that downloads in parallel
14:01 < cluckj> lol
14:01 < catern> haha
14:01 < catern> you're like that guy from questionable content!!
14:01 < Alcyius> In some ways yes
14:01 < Alcyius> But she's also a con artist and not the best mother
14:02 < cluckj> decent, albeit old, taste in scifi
14:02 < cluckj> that's good at least
14:02 < Alcyius> Also, the movie lineup this year looks great
14:02 < Alcyius> Remakes and sequels to a bunch of classics, some new properties that are looking pretty good
14:03 < maaku> Wget can be configured to do that
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14:05 < cluckj> if you want weird families and relationships nothing can beat octavia butler's xenogenesis
14:05 < Alcyius> I actually
14:05 < Alcyius> Think I have a copy of that
14:05 < TMA> Alcyius: Stranger from a Strange Land is remarkable piece of sci-fi even discounting the relationship matter; it's one of those books that is pleasant to read AND makes you think
14:05 < cluckj> it's aka lilith's brood
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14:07 < lkjhfr> turns out there is less than 5000, around 4700 - there were many duplicates
14:08 < lkjhfr> around 1500 are hosted on diyhplus and heybryan
14:09 < maaku> TMA true of most classic Heinlein
14:10 < maaku> Wouldn't paperbot have the rest?
14:14 < TMA> maaku: yeah. one of the reason my friend said: "I would read a telephone directory if it were written by Heinlein"
14:15 < maaku> Hahaha. And true.
14:15 < cluckj> lol
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14:23 < kanzure> i believe i have read telephone directories that were _not_ written by heinlein. what of it?
14:26 < lkjhfr> who is paperbot?
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14:30 < lkjhfr> 2015-11-30.log:12:07 < chris_99> i think paperbot has been dead for a while?
14:30 < lkjhfr> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/wiley-error.txt
14:34 < lkjhfr> paperbot has 940 pdfs, and those are included in those 1500 from diyhplus
14:35 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
14:41 < lkjhfr> ah, so this means that paperbot pulled pdfs from links that didn't lead directly to pdfs
14:42 < lkjhfr> it's still 4700 pdfs then
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14:51 < maaku> kanzure Melbourne telephone directory circa '60s would be a good one to memorize. Its where the CIA pulls their alias names from
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15:04 < drethelin> maaku if that's generally known why wouldn't they change it
15:05 < maaku> I'm sure its different now but they wouldn't burn all the old identities. Was at least the case through the 90's
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15:07 < drethelin> do you really think people are maintaining the same identity for 55 years?
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15:14 < lkjhfr> i am downloading ~1 pdf per second with ~80% success rate
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15:22 < lkjhfr> no, thats 20% error response rate, there are also domain lookup errors and authentication failures
15:22 < lkjhfr> 50% success rate
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15:34 < kanzure> old identities are definitely maintained. useful to have lots of built-up history.
15:34 < kanzure> great now i am suspicious about all the old people i know in melbourne
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16:25 < lkjhfr> http://dunno.sdf-eu.org/titles.txt
16:25 < lkjhfr> this is just pathetic
16:25 < lkjhfr> and this is from 1gb of pdfs
16:28 < lkjhfr> a better idea would be to use sets of words commonly used in materials of given category to categorize it
16:29 < lkjhfr> do statistics of these words and check which category they match best
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16:51 < lkjhfr> "We must incrementally build up the capabilities of intelligent systems, having complete systems at each step of the way and thus automatically ensure that the pieces and their interfaces are valid."
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16:57 < lkjhfr> there is so much different stuff
16:57 < lkjhfr> all kinds of stuff
17:01 < docl> FourFire: the idea that you would need more than a few decades to make a dyson sphere is a persistent myth. you don't actually even need planetary disassembly as a prereq -- you could surround the sun with thin sail-like solar collectors using the mass of a large asteroid.
17:03 < docl> If you stuck to 1.0 AU, a sphere with the density of a thousand sheets of graphene would be the mass of Pallas.
17:06 < Diablo-D3> well theres another thing
17:06 < Diablo-D3> you'd spend the first decade manufacturing manufacturing.
17:06 < Diablo-D3> then you'd build the dyson sphere on this star
17:06 < Diablo-D3> within another decade
17:06 < Diablo-D3> and then already have your gear headed towards the next star
17:07 < lkjhfr> an asteroid would be enough to collect the energy, not to store it
17:08 < Diablo-D3> to only use your dyson sphere building army once
17:08 < Diablo-D3> is a waste
17:08 < Diablo-D3> you'd want to build the army here
17:08 < Diablo-D3> build the first dyson sphere here
17:08 < Diablo-D3> have the army build two or three more armies
17:08 < Diablo-D3> and then send them off in opposite directions
17:09 < Diablo-D3> building dyson spheres, 3-4 every decade
17:09 < Diablo-D3> and start building larger systems to take stars apart that dont have enough matter around them to build spheres
17:09 < lkjhfr> why haven't i known this channel for so long
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17:10 < lkjhfr> i have this one question i already wanted to ask a day or two ago
17:11 < lkjhfr> has there any research been made towards von neumann molecular machines that wouldn't be restricted by water freezing and boiling temperatures that would be suitable for outer space?
17:12 < Diablo-D3> research? yes
17:12 < Diablo-D3> results? not so much
17:12 < Diablo-D3> nanoscale engineering like that is still in the future
17:12 < Diablo-D3> and Im not sure if I can realistically say near future, or just future future
17:12 < Diablo-D3> so Im just goign to go with future future
17:14 < docl> I've been more focused on macroscopic von neumann systems. not that we won't ever have nano versions of that concept, but in theory we can make large scale systems using known tech.
17:15 < docl> one variant of this would be printing everything in place using an "omnivorous" process that can work with a variety of materials.
17:15 < docl> http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/3.14.htm
17:16 < docl> the idea is essentially a large scale mass spectrometer with 3d printing capabilities.
17:17 < docl> it wouldn't be very efficient though -- replication times were estimated at 3 years. everything gets superheated to a plasma in order to separate the elements out, which results in a lot more waste heat than the chemical processes we usually use.
17:19 < lkjhfr> to build stuff from asteroid most useful would be some kind of asteroid eating bacteria
17:20 < lkjhfr> but it couldn't be earth bacteria, because these have very narrow working temperature range
17:21 < docl> you could put a bag around the asteroid so it holds water, bake it a little so it releases moisture, then colonize it with something. maintaining the right temperature would just be a matter of mirrors (also, water itself is something of a thermal battery since it makes ice or steam by absorbing or releasing a lot of energy)
17:26 < docl> there's also a process for extracting nickle using carbon monoxide, the Mond Process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond_process
17:28 < docl> it can be used on iron as well. so you could get purified nickle-iron relatively easy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonyl_metallurgy
17:28 < lkjhfr> media often report news regarding water in space, and i just don't understand how important it is, would it really be impossible to have organism that would work without water? is the hydrogen essential somehow?
17:31 < docl> there's water in c-type asteroids. yes you need it for all life as we know it, but it's not that rare and is recycleable.
17:32 < docl> c-type asteroids are essentially asphalt. so they have some rocks, and a lot of hydrocarbons. rocks are full of oxygen. so if you cook them, you get water as part of the result.
17:33 < lkjhfr> but the only life we know is one that we happened to live besides
17:35 < docl> there is a sci-fi series on syfy called The Expanse, which has a lot of political drama about water. the people living in the asteroid belt are somehow dependent on shipments of ice from Saturn. it's one of the less plausible elements of the show, since belters would necessarily live in enclosures with the ability to recycle water.
17:36 < docl> there could hypothetically be life based on other elements. but hydrogen has some unique properties that make it unlikely that it would be totally non-hydrogen-based. look up hydrogen bonds. those are the bonds between hydrogen-containing molecules, for example what makes ice crystals hexagonal.
17:38 < docl> I think I've seen some proposals of NH3 (ammonia) based life, or methane based. those are extremely common forms of hydrogen in the gas giant planet moons. the gas giants themselves are of course largely made of hydrogen (as is the sun, obviously)
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17:40 < docl> most plastics are hydrogen based. there are some exceptions though, such as fluorocarbons (like PTFE, aka teflon). pretty sure they use a hydrocarbon precursor to make that stuff though.
17:42 < lkjhfr> found it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry
17:44 < docl> note that most of those are alternate hydrogen compounds, not non-hydrogen
17:46 < docl> another thing to remember is that hydrogen is very lightweight per atom. so transporting it around is not such a big deal compared to oxygen.
17:48 < docl> there's lots of oxygen in every asteroid, so if you have a big tank of earth-sourced hydrogen your chemical rocket or manufacturing process that needs water can still benefit a lot. 1 atom of oxygen weighs 16 times that of hydrogen, so water is 8 times as much oxygen by mass.
17:51 < docl> I mentioned hydrogen bonds... one of the cool things about those is how much effect they have on phase change properties of chemicals. that is, for example when ice melts or water boils, the energy it soaks up or (releases when the processes are reversed). this holds to a lesser degree with other hydrogen compounds like ammonia.
17:53 < docl> that's why they use ammonia (NH3) in refrigerators, and why water evaporation is used for cooling nuclear plants.
17:58 < docl> despite all that, do we really need water/hydrogen for space based manufacturing? I think probably not, if we are okay with the process being an energy hog. like I said, heat it to plasma, then you can separate it out without chemical bonds getting in the way. the final particle stream can then be directed to a cold target where it will stick.
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18:26 < docl> I wonder what the energy cost is to sort 1 ton of random rock into its constituent elements using a mass spectrometer type mechanism?
18:28 < docl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust
18:29 < docl> 300 ppm of rubidium, for example, is 300 grams. it sells for $25/gram, so that's $17500 worth.
18:32 < streety> that won't be evenly distributed throughout the crust though
18:32 < streety> the enthalpy of formation would be a good place to start for the energy cost of sorting by mass spec
18:33 < superkuh> And in that other 1 ton of stuff you have lots of "toxic" stuff you have to pay >>17k for proper disposal of.
18:33 < superkuh> Kind of the problem with rare earth mining.
18:38 < docl> If you have purified mercury, thorium, and so on, can you not sell them?
18:41 < superkuh> No one is buying thorium. Even the US DOE is trying to get rid of it's giant stockpile of refined thorium.
18:42 < superkuh> The one or two operating rare earth mines in the US have big problems getting rid of it. It costs them a lot.
18:43 < docl> maybe just mix it into another ton of silica sand in the natural proportions to turn it back into rock?
18:45 < superkuh> Regulations do not work like that.
18:46 < docl> coal is something like $20/ton and yields around 20 GJ/ton. unless we are talking about a stronger chemical bond than CO2, the energy cost for separating out the elements can't be that much higher (without a rather major level of inefficiency being factored in).
18:46 < xentrac> superkuh: oh, that's interesting!
18:46 < docl> so if we have to pay double to turn the toxic component back to rock, it potentially wouldn't be that big of a deal.
18:47 < xentrac> docl: in addition to the raw energy cost, there's also an entropy cost due to the elements being diluted, but it's very small in absolute terms
18:53 < docl> you can also get silica sand for $50/ton, so if you were trying to produce oxygen and silicon, with an energy cost near that of $20 worth of coal, it's possible in theory. note that metallurgical grade silicon sells for $2/kg, so you could turn out $1000 worth even if it isn't ultra-pure.
18:53 < Diablo-D3> so....
18:53 < Diablo-D3> you're making glass?
18:54 < docl> nah, silicon is a metal
18:54 < Diablo-D3> yeah but you said silicon and oxygen
18:54 < docl> glass is silicon dioxide and such
18:54 < docl> pull the oxygen out and you get the metal
18:55 < docl> so you get two products. maybe just release the oxygen, or maybe trap it in a tank and sell it.
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18:56 < docl> (silica sand is silicon dioxide as well)
19:01 < docl> given the above, our tech for refining materials must really suck. like, we must be getting only 2% efficiency when all is said and done.
19:06 < docl> altogether, there are 184 grams of rare earth elements in a given ton of earth (184 ppm). http://geology.com/usgs/ree-geology/
19:07 < AdrianG> pretty good amount
19:07 < AdrianG> probably much higher proportion in trash dumps.
19:08 < superkuh> Some of the Thorium molten salt reactor talks have a good explanation of the economics of this and why it is not feasible in the current regulatory environment.
19:09 < AdrianG> thorium?
19:11 < maaku> An element that can be fissioned, is way more abundant than Uranium, requires less processing, makes less radioactive waste, but unfortunately doesn't make weapons grade material as a side product
19:11 < superkuh> https://t.co/DpXsRQWal9 - Video of the SpaceX first stage rocket landing back on the drone ship. It landed... but one of the legs didn't lock. So it tipped after landing then exploded.
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19:27 < docl> a lot of rees seem to sell for less than a dollar per gram on the commodities markets, some more (scandium $15/g for example). if the average is around $1/g, 184 grams is only $184. that is a lot less valuable than the silicon or rubidium.
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19:41 < AdrianG> maaku: i know what thorium is. why cant molten reactors be approved?
19:42 < maaku> I don't think the molten reactors specifically are the problem
19:42 < docl> costs for disposal of nuclear waste run around 200,000 euros per cubic meter. thorium is denser than water, so 12 grams is less than 12 cubic centimeters. 12 cubic centimeters of waste costs 24 eurocents to dispose of.
19:42 < docl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_nuclear_power_plants#Waste_disposal_costs
19:43 < AdrianG> nuclear "waste"...what nonsense.
19:44 < AdrianG> we just need fast neutron nukes.
19:48 < docl> fast neutrons scare people for some reason.
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20:02 < docl> one possible reason mass spec type omnivorous refining would be opposed is that it makes it too easy to enrich fissile uranium. there are around 10 ppb fissile uranium in granite, since it's 1.6 ppm uranium which is 0.7% u-235.
20:03 < docl> assuming you need to burn 1 ton of coal per ton of refining, at $20/ton, that would cost $2000 for 10 grams worth. luckily, it is probably not possible to get anywhere near that efficient.
20:03 < docl> *20,000
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20:12 < AdrianG> docl: fast neutrons scare people because you can make bombs with those reactors.
20:15 < docl> yup
20:18 < docl> now that you've brought up the topic of nuclear physics, I'm actually a little worried that talk of general-purpose element refining carries x-risk.
20:19 < docl> maybe it's the type of thing that should only be developed secretly by well-vetted teams :/
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20:33 < AdrianG> too late, its out of the bag.
20:33 < AdrianG> israel built hundreds of nuclear bombs in a single 5-6 story building?
20:34 < AdrianG> im quite amazed actually iran was using centrifuges. sounds almost ancient.
20:37 < maaku> Iraq was using calutrons
20:38 < maaku> Go figure
20:38 < maaku> AdrianG what do you mean? Israel has no bombs!
20:48 < AdrianG> right, and im sure vanunu wasnt working on anything like that either
20:48 < AdrianG> must've been tried for taking selfies at work
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22:16 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10921773
22:16 < yoleaux> WebTorrent – BitTorrent over WebRTC | Hacker News
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22:23 < kanzure> grr why isn't simonster on irc this is like the one time i want to message him
22:25 < kanzure> "Deep neural networks rival the representation of primate inferior temporal cortex for core visual object representation" http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003963 (2014)
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22:44 < kanzure> "the main person that Satoshi wanted to hand this off to, if I understand correctly, was Hal Finnel. but he got ALS. and died."
22:44 < kanzure> welp so much for that plan
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22:48 < AdrianG> very unfortunate.
22:48 < AdrianG> we'd be better off with Hal.
23:10 < AdrianG> http://gizmodo.com/an-ai-program-in-japan-just-passed-a-college-entrance-e-1742758286
23:18 < pompolic> >gawker
23:20 < lkjhfr> i think i know why that water and hydrogen is part of all life: it's needed for competition, it's allowing each cell to eat another one and to rebuild itself
23:20 < lkjhfr> it's not worth looking for
23:23 < kanzure> given sufficiently large random memory initialized with random opcodes, sequences of self-replication tend to be found with high probability, independent of details like single-protonated atoms or whatever.
23:24 < kanzure> see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/The%20evolution%20of%20self-replicating%20computer%20organisms%20-%20A.%20N.%20Pargellis.pdf
23:26 < pompolic> how high?
23:26  * pompolic reads
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23:37 < maaku> AdrianG: we'd be better off with the system creator not "handing off" to anyone
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23:45 < kanzure> maaku: that sounds an awful lot like a vote for the dead guy :-)
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--- Log closed Mon Jan 18 00:00:08 2016