--- Log opened Fri Mar 18 00:00:03 2016
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05:08 < kanzure> http://neuralensemble.org/PyNN/ "pynn - simulator-independent specification of neuronal network models"
05:08 < T0BI> hi
05:09 < kanzure> i don't think this is the one i wanted.
05:09 < kanzure> "emergent" was the model from randall oreilly https://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Main_Page
05:10 < kanzure> which was also used in "leabra" i think.
05:10 < kanzure> and commercialized http://www.e-cortex.com/research-projects
05:20 < kanzure> ok so he knew about nengo but this does not explain what the other python project was called
05:23 < T0BI> kanzure, you do want what?
05:24 < kanzure> http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/ai-visionary-eliezer-yudkowsky-on-the-singularity-bayesian-brains-and-closet-goblins/
05:24 < kanzure> T0BI: what?
05:24 < T0BI> "i don't think this is the one i wanted."
05:24 < T0BI> want what?
05:25 < kanzure> T0BI: i think the scrollback already makes this clear
05:25 < T0BI> OK SORRY
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07:08 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11305527
07:08 < yoleaux> Google Puts Boston Dynamics Up for Sale in Robotics Retreat | Hacker News
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07:33 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkNZuJBzKtg
07:33 < yoleaux> Deep Learning Architecture with Dynamically Programmed Layers for Brain Connectome Prediction - YouTube
07:34 < kanzure> "This paper explores the idea of using deep neural network architecture with dynamically programmed layers for brain connectome prediction problem. Understanding the brain connectome structure is a very interesting and a challenging problem. It is critical in the research for epilepsy and other neuropathological diseases. We introduce a new deep learning architecture that exploits the spatial and temporal nature of the neuronal ...
07:34 < kanzure> ... activation data. The architecture consists of a combination of Convolutional layer and a Recurrent layer for predicting the connectome of neurons based on their time-series of activation data. The key contribution of this paper is a dynamically programmed layer that is critical in determining the alignment between the neuronal activations of pair-wise combinations of neurons."
07:37 < kanzure> "A predictive structural model of the primate connectome" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1511.07222.pdf
07:38 < kanzure> "Anatomical connectivity imposes strong constraints on brain function, but there is no general agreement about principles that govern its organization. Based on extensive quantitative data we tested the power of three models to predict connections of the primate cerebral cortex: architectonic similarity (structural model), spatial proximity (distance model) and thickness similarity (thickness model). Architectonic similarity showed the ...
07:38 < kanzure> ... strongest and most consistent influence on connection features. This parameter was strongly associated with the presence or absence of inter-areal connections and when integrated with spatial distance, the model allowed predicting the existence of projections with very high accuracy. Moreover, architectonic similarity was strongly related to the laminar pattern of projections origins, and the absolute number of cortical connections ...
07:38 < kanzure> ... of an area. By contrast, cortical thickness similarity and distance were not systematically related to connection features. These findings suggest that cortical architecture provides a general organizing principle for connections in the primate brain."
07:40 < kanzure> oh this is interesting,
07:40 < kanzure> "An algorithm to predict the connectome of neural microcircuits" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4597796/
07:40 < kanzure> "Experimentally mapping synaptic connections, in terms of the numbers and locations of their synapses and estimating connection probabilities, is still not a tractable task, even for small volumes of tissue. In fact, the six layers of the neocortex contain thousands of unique types of synaptic connections between the many different types of neurons, of which only a handful have been characterized experimentally. Here we present a ...
07:40 < kanzure> ... theoretical framework and a data-driven algorithmic strategy to digitally reconstruct the complete synaptic connectivity between the different types of neurons in a small well-defined volume of tissue—the micro-scale connectome of a neural microcircuit."
07:41 < kanzure> "By enforcing a set of established principles of synaptic connectivity, and leveraging interdependencies between fundamental properties of neural microcircuits to constrain the reconstructed connectivity, the algorithm yields three parameters per connection type that predict the anatomy of all types of biologically viable synaptic connections. The predictions reproduce a spectrum of experimental data on synaptic connectivity not used by ...
07:41 < kanzure> ... the algorithm."
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07:54 < kanzure> "Generation of dense statistical connectomes from sparse morphological data" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Generation%20of%20dense%20statistical%20connectomes%20from%20sparse%20morphological%20data%20-%20Egger%20-%202014.pdf
07:56 < kanzure> "Reconstruction and simulation of neocortical microcircuitry" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Reconstruction%20and%20simulation%20of%20neocortical%20microcircuitry.pdf
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08:05 < maaku> kanzure the point is more to convince someone already concerned about "friendliness" to do useful work
08:06 < kanzure> people who are concerned about "friendliness" are concerned about an always-overwhelmingly-powerful adversary and then wondering "wait maybe there's an equally powerful anti-adversary to overpower my by-definition-overwhelming adversary." which doesn't compute at all.
08:06  * kanzure looks at https://forum.humanbrainproject.eu/
08:07 < maaku> jollybard: it'd be an easier task than what MIRI has set itself to do
08:07 < maaku> I don't care for friendliness though
08:08 < kanzure> i want to throw something like nengo into a genetic algorithm sorta thingy (or at least some evolutionary landscape jiggler program, maybe with beacon's lexicase selection method)
08:09 < kanzure> i worry that they might not have disclosed in their documentation that simple OCR tasks might be taking multiple hours of computation with the nengo or leabra implementations
08:09 < kanzure> iirc blue brain project emulations are often run at like "10 microseconds simulated by running a large-scale distributed system for dozens of hours" which is really sad
08:10 < kanzure> and then they wave their arms about "hey we simulated 32,000 neurons and 81 million connections" great... at this rate it will take eternity to do anything.
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08:26 < kanzure> https://grey.colorado.edu/CompCogNeuro/index.php/CCNBook/Main
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09:51 < docl> 1) I care for friendliness. Don't want to be eaten by paperclips. 2) Humans are malleable agents, can be friendly or not depending on how we are prompted. 3) AI is less useful than self replicating machinery.
09:52 < kanzure> i am mostly okay with computronium as long as i can be reasonably confident that the computronium will continue to exist in the future-- i don't want some stupid fate like "eaten by computronium, then the computronium dies within a decade".
09:53 < kanzure> docl: we already have self-replicating machines (biological cells) but they need a tremendous amount of refactoring to become less completely lame
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10:07 < xentrac_> docl: I've been thinking a lot about the self-replicating machinery problem lately
10:08 < xentrac_> I wonder if there's maybe a better way to do fabrication of computational circuits with existing materials technology that is only viable with self-replicating machinery (because otherwise it requires too much capital investment)
10:09 < xentrac_> it seems like self-replicating machinery puts an end to the last 3 million years of wealth building being largely based on accumulating capital goods
10:12 < xentrac_> even without any other H+ things happening, that would be a significant change in what it means to be human
10:17 < kanzure> these things are more true when talking about molecular nanotechnology and molecular manufacturing, than kinematic self-replicating machines
10:18 < kanzure> xentrac_: does moon RAM count as something not viable without self-replicating machinery?
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10:26 < xentrac_> docl: another interesting thing about self-replicating machinery is that it means that your computational elements don't have to be fast --- although probably minimal energy usage is still important
10:27 < kanzure> strandbeest-style pneumatic-based self-replication could probably take quite a while under low-wind weather conditions.
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11:08 < docl> .title http://www.popsci.com/for-nearly-infinite-power-build-self-replicating-solar-panels-on-moon
11:08 < yoleaux> Page Unavailable
11:14 < fenn> “There’s excitement from the tech press, but we’re also starting to see some negative threads about it being terrifying, ready to take humans’ jobs,” wrote Courtney Hohne, a director of communications at Google and the spokeswoman for Google X.
11:15 < fenn> "in February, Google’s public-relations team expressed discomfort that Alphabet would be associated with a push into humanoid robotics."
11:15 < fenn> lamesauce
11:16 < docl> xentrac_: good points all around. the machinery really just needs to have good enough electronics close enough. vacuum tube type electronics might be fine for that.
11:16 < fenn> no tube needed
11:16 < docl> right, just using the familiar term
11:17 < docl> is there a better term? hot cathode, perhaps?
11:17 < fenn> triode?
11:21 < docl> I also think "electronics" evolved for space would rely more on lasers instead of electric wiring. You can have a single laser unit at the center of a vast field that supplies energy to every point.
11:22 < docl> so the cathode doesn't have to be thermionic, could be photovoltaic instead.
11:30 < docl> Heck, I'd like to see all kinds of engineering evolved for large scale vacuum chambers. Perhaps someone with money could set up a big vacuum chamber and start a competition with prizes and stuff.
11:37 < docl> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E43-CfukEgs
11:37 < yoleaux> Brian Cox visits the world's biggest vacuum chamber - Human Universe: Episode 4 Preview - BBC Two - YouTube
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11:53 < pasky> I really like that Alphabet is spinning off Boston Dynamics again since B.D. will probably be no shorter in cash for further research anyway, but in mid/long term the tech market is hopefully not going to be as monolithic as it might be now
11:53 < pasky> what I wonder about is what were they thinking when they were buying it? it seems like a weird moment to sell it
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11:58 < docl> not that relying on microelectronics from earth is that big of a deal when we're talking about self replicating lunar and space robots.
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12:58 < kanzure> when gradstudentbot comes back, we need neanderthalbot.
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13:17 < maaku> kanzure moon RAM != random access memory I presume?
13:18 < kanzure> random access memory
13:18 < maaku> OK so what is moon RAM?
13:19 < kanzure> random access memory
13:19 < kanzure> just lots of it
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13:34 < nmz787_i> sup
13:35 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk_: do you take turmeric in pills, or just eat it?
13:35 < nmz787_i> anyone in here know if cooked turmeric (with black pepper, for piperidine) is more effective than just taking pills of both?
13:36 < nmz787_i> i'm mostly thinking about taking some powder/capsules on a backpacking trip
13:37 < nmz787_i> either turmeric, fenugreek, or the combination replaces body-odor smell with spice smell... so I figure it would be a good for backpacking/camping
13:38 < jrayhawk_> I just eat it.
13:40 < nmz787_i> is that based on research or just laziness?
13:41 < nmz787_i> i mean, I don't really think a few days of lowered efficacy matters much if eating it is less effective
13:42 < nmz787_i> but if cooking actually lowers effectiveness, then I might start poppin caps
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13:47 < jrayhawk_> It's a hormetic stressor with a U-shaped dose-benefit curve and I think it's silly to treat it as both a thing to consume mass quantities of and of as The One True Polyphenol
13:49 < jrayhawk_> Oxidative stability chemicals are often associated with other defense chemicals and I find cooking prudent in that regard, but I haven't looked to see if that's the case with Turmeric.
13:51 < nmz787_i> ah, yeah I'm not thinking about consuming more than usual.
13:52 < jrayhawk_> Well, in this case you're removing it from the central feedback system for such things: taste.
13:52 < nmz787_i> mmm, like as in I'll get used to it and stop responding?
13:52 < nmz787_i> damn randomness-required
13:53 < jrayhawk_> As in if your body stops responding well to the hormetic stressor, it's nice to know.
13:53 < jrayhawk_> (And if your body is pressuring you into eating a wider variety of polyphenols, it's nice to know.)
13:54 < jrayhawk_> Part of the appeal of polyphenols is also to stabilize the food they're mixed into.
13:54 < jrayhawk_> Obviously with fruit, but just as much so with e.g. meat.
13:55 < jrayhawk_> Lipid peroxidation being the big one.
13:55 < nmz787_i> yeah i def notice spice-rich food stays good longer
13:56 < nmz787_i> or at least has harder-to-detect offensive odours/tastes
13:57 < nmz787_i> I find that spices reducing body odor, in turn reduces my anxiety through the day being in a social situation at work
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14:30 < kanzure> medvedik replying about tdt-mediated oligonucleotide synthesis,
14:30 < kanzure> "Well it is still slow going, but I anticipate that keeping error rates down will be key, of course. Hopefully we can tackle that at many fronts. But first we have to establish the error rate which I thought we would have accomplished by now but haven't quite gotten there. We are shifting to UV labile protective group nucleotides, which have been very difficult/expensive to purchase until recently. We are hoping that the kinetics of ...
14:30 < kanzure> ... decoupling will be much faster than the heat labile ones. "
14:31 < kanzure> re: http://2014.igem.org/Team:Cooper_Union/Notebook/TdT_September
14:31 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/enzymaticsynthesis/DApMjXx8gS4/XCQrfjBLBAAJ
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14:35 < nmz787_i> "using photo-labile nucleotides seems counter-intuitive with a tDt based system... shouldn't the enzyme be doing all the work for you? I have been working on some nanofluidic ideas to allow addition of single nucleotides at a time, I wonder how different your teams implementation is from what I'm imagining."
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15:10 < nmz787_i> .g anti-ghosting keyboard
15:10 < yoleaux> https://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/antighostingexplained.mspx
15:13 < nmz787_i> the keyboard on this ultrabook looks like it might be OK, too bad it doens't have end/home/pgup/pgdown
15:13 < nmz787_i> http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth
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16:01 < fenn> nmz787_i the main benefits of turmeric are preventing colon cancer and alzheimer's
16:02 < fenn> it's not just another polyphenol
16:06 < nmz787_i> I mainly use it for taste in food
16:06 < fenn> cooking helps dissolve it in fat which increases bioavailability
16:07 < nmz787_i> but was mostly just thinking in terms of how cooking might change its efficacy... and also thinking forward to capsulating some for deodorant-in-a-pill
16:07 < nmz787_i> but I think that fenugreek is the one that really provides that benefit
16:07 < nmz787_i> (or the combo)
16:07 < fenn> i just wear reasonably close fitting cotton t-shirts
16:08 < kanzure>  /query gmaxwell let's deploy the warheads soon
16:08 < fenn> your opsec is showing
16:09 < kanzure>  /win 123
16:09 < nmz787_i> fenn: that just makes the smell and moisture diffuse more... some days I sweat a lot and even the moisture doesn't abate
16:10 < fenn> i guess i eat a lot of cumin, if we're going with the spice theory
16:17 < fenn> 3-hydroxy-3-methylhexanoic acid has a cumin spice-like odor, while 3-methyl-2-hexenoic acid has been described as hircine, which means "of or characteristic of a goat."
16:18 < fenn> 3-methyl-3-sulfaryl hexanol is described as "nauseating onion-like smell"
16:19 < fenn> surprising how similar these all are
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16:36 < fenn> "Polyester holds on to only about 0.4 percent of moisture; cotton just 7 percent. Unlike regular polyester, though, wicking fabrics are woven in such a way that the moisture is forced into and through the gaps in the weave so it can find the outer shell of the material.
16:38 < fenn> all these suggestions are about killing bacteria and eliminating bacteria, but i don't see anything about altering the microbial ecology with i.e. lactic acid
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16:48 < maaku> docl: I don't think you actually care about friendliness. You care about autonomous super-robots wiping out humanity. So don't make autonomous super-robots.
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16:52 < pasky> like self-driving cars
16:53 < pasky> (or, worse, self-driving trucks)
16:58 < maaku> Or make a superintelligent AI, but don't give it effectors
16:59 < maaku> There's really no reason an AGI has to have any effectors at all.
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17:09 < pasky> what good is an AI without effectors?
17:09 < pasky> (natural language interface is an effector)
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17:22 < maaku> pasky information are not effectors
17:23 < maaku> And don't give me any bull about super AIs convincing meat robots to do random shit
17:24 < maaku> In that situation you pull the plug, and take your time investigating. Duh.
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17:49 < pasky> i don't think that it's so unrealistic it'd convince you; I think if I was the only one allowed to talk to it, I'd have a good chance (>50%) to resist, but if say tens of people would have access to it, game over
17:49 < pasky> and I'd actually *use* the agi to do stuff, like take over the world, and i'm pretty sure that if it was order of magnitude more intelligent than me, it'd find some way to trick me in the process
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17:50 < pasky> ( *use* the agi to do stuff == find solutions to problems - write software, design molecules/equipment, trade things, give general dvice; not necessarily do something on its own)
17:53 < pasky> neat http://www.nature.com/news/south-korea-trumpets-860-million-ai-fund-after-alphago-shock-1.19595
17:53 < pasky> (of course most of it will be wasted, but probably not all)
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