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07:05 < kanzure> hrmph
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07:13 < cluckj> hm
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10:39 < kanzure> "CRISPR-mediated direct mutation of cancer genes in the mouse liver" http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v514/n7522/abs/nature13589.html
10:39 < kanzure> "Elimination of HIV-1 Genomes from Human T-lymphoid Cells by CRISPR/Cas9 Gene Editing" http://www.nature.com/articles/srep22555
10:41 < kanzure> "HIV-1 proviral DNA excision using an evolved recombinase." https://publications.mpi-cbg.de/Sarkar_2007_932.pdf
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11:17 < esmerelda> That's amazing
11:17 < esmerelda> Kanzure, are they having to do shock & kill? What if the viral genome is wound inside a histone?
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12:35 < nmz787_i> abetusk_: yeah not making PCBs, though I've considered it. goal is microfluidics, but I progress slowly... I think I'll get there someday (this year)
12:38 < nmz787_i> thundara_: I believe you're spot-on
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12:40 < nmz787_i> thundara_: do you know about EELS (electron energy loss spectroscopy), serial block face scanning electron microscopy, electron microprobe, cryo-electron tomography
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13:12 < thundara_> Negative
13:12 < thundara_> I just know that one as the third method to X-tallography and SAXS that the ALS offered but people didn't really use
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13:27 < nmz787_i> als as in .wik als   ?
13:27 < nmz787_i> .wik als
13:27 < yoleaux> "ALS or Als may mean:" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Als
13:27 < nmz787_i> .wik Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis 
13:27 < yoleaux> "Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) is a specific disorder that involves the death of neurons. In a number of countries, the term motor neurone disease (MND) is commonly used, while others use that term for a group of five conditions of which ALS is the most common." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyotrophic_Lateral_Sclerosis
13:33 < nmz787_i> thundara: I'm guessing you don't mean that disease... but this stuff, especially the cryo stuff, is very neat indeed... the cryo part almost eliminates molecular jitter, so you again don't need crystals to achieve atomic data
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13:51 < thundara> nmz787_i: Advanced Light Source at Lawrence Berkeley National Lab
13:51 < thundara> A synchrotron
13:51 < thundara> I don't understand the X-ray microscopy stuff at all (I barely understood SAXS while I was there)
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15:28 < nmz787_i> thundara: just remember photons of any color, or electrons, are just waves... so they all function in quite similar ways (difference for imaging is mostly the wavelength or the charge, in the case of electrons or ions)
15:29 < nmz787_i> there is even neutral-atom-microscopy, using something like Helium
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17:35 < nsh> .title http://www.nickpinkston.com/2011/11/physics-and-economies-of-scale.html
17:35 < yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
17:35 < nsh> shut up
17:35 < nsh> .title http://tbiomed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1742-4682-6-6
17:35 < yoleaux> Scale-free flow of life: on the biology, economics, and physics of the cell | Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling | Full Text
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17:35 < nsh> 'The present work is intended to demonstrate that most of the paradoxes, controversies, and contradictions accumulated in molecular and cell biology over many years of research can be readily resolved if the cell and living systems in general are re-interpreted within an alternative paradigm of biological organization that is based on the concepts and empirical laws of nonequilibrium thermodynamics. I
17:35 < nsh> n addition to resolving paradoxes and controversies, the proposed re-conceptualization of the cell and biological organization reveals hitherto unappreciated connections among many seemingly disparate phenomena and observations, and provides new and powerful insights into the universal principles governing the emergence and organizational dynamics of living systems on each and every scale of biologica
17:35 < nsh> l organizational hierarchy, from proteins and cells to economies and ecologies.'
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18:44 < nmz787> I can just send someone a bitcoin wallet, right?
18:44 < nmz787> like one I have in a text file?
18:44 < nmz787> there's nothing in it I need to strip, right?
18:55 < nmz787> ugh, google.... can't sort app reviews by 'worst first', only by 'nest first'
18:55 < nmz787> best*
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19:21 < nmz787> kanzure: do you dvelop for 'bitcoin core'?
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19:54 < nmz787> kanzure: please complain about loopback transactions for me... I just got charged to send a bitcoin to the wallet it originated from (accidentally, but why the hell should I be charged, the transaction should never have went through since source==dest)
19:55 < xentrac_> that sounds amusing
19:55 < xentrac_> how much did you get charged?
19:59 < xentrac_> presumably the network doesn't know that the source address and the destination address are in the same wallet, right?  I guess I might be saying idiocies here because of my loose grasp of how Bitcoin works
20:03 < kanzure> nmz787: i have no idea what a loopback transaction is
20:03 < kanzure> nmz787: but yes i am considered a bitcoin core developer at this point
20:04 < nmz787> you don't know what a loopback is???
20:04 < kanzure> not in this context
20:04 < nmz787> I actually can't tell if the transaction went through or not
20:04 < kanzure> what's the transaction id?
20:04 < nmz787> sender is same as receiver
20:04 < nmz787> no idea how to get that info
20:04 < nmz787> (using electrum)
20:06 < kanzure> nmz787: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/e3d64a469dd78137a3b80e4c5ca7e4090adaf8ab/lib/commands.py#L435
20:07 < kanzure> in this case the value that you want is tx_hash
20:08 < kanzure> i believe there's a command prompt or python interpreter in electrum, too
20:08 < nmz787> appears only to be history() for 2014 dates
20:09 < nmz787> so I guess the transaction didn't go through?
20:09 < nmz787> so if I didn't hit broadcast, it wasn't transacted?
20:10 < kanzure> broadcast is definitely a requirement for the bitcoin network to learn about your transaction
20:11 < nmz787> OH
20:11 < kanzure> it's possible that electru's history() function only shows confirmed transactions in the blockchain
20:11 < nmz787> not at all apparent
20:11 < kanzure> *electrum's
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20:16 < nmz787> what is a good test -send amount?
20:18 < kanzure> if you want to test, you should use regtest (instant) or testnet (fake money)
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20:22 < nmz787> hmm, i got rejected from sending 0.0001 millibitcoins
20:23 < kanzure> "dust" transactions are usually rejected, unless you have a high fee, but even then there are nodes on the network that have a minimum amount necessary before they will relay your bitcoin transaction
20:24 < nmz787> so it seems I have no other way to test using electrum
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20:25 < kanzure> nmz787: what are you trying to test?
20:26 < kanzure> electrum probably has unit tests of its own that you can run
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20:28 < nmz787> just that the receiver ID is correct
20:28 < nmz787> he sent it to me in SMS
20:28 < nmz787> had some bitcoin: notation
20:29 < nmz787> the software didn't seem to like the hyphen in the middle, so I removed that
20:29 < nmz787> and then I ignored post ? since I assumed that was a different data segment (for the amount)
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20:39 < kanzure> nmz787: if you want to PM me the details i'll take a look, but it sounds like you have figured out that you do in fact need to broadcast the transaction
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20:49 < nmz787> kanzure: well that was on the 'sweep keys' interface (I tried sweeping the same priv key into the priv key that started the wallet in electrum)
20:49 < nmz787> now I am trying to send milk+cream money
20:50 < nmz787> but was manually copying the address from SMS (which included a hypen) (which upon copying and pasting to a browser URL bar, to check on blockchain.info, I found was only visual, and not in the copy-paste buffer)
20:50 < nmz787> the same transaction shows up on laptop and phone, so I think I got it right
20:51 < nmz787> thankfully the hyphen is not part of bitcoin addresses (or it added an extra character to the address length limit)
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20:52 < nmz787> I would be super pissed if Android changing the data for visual line breaking caused me to mis-send money
20:52 < kanzure> "sweep keys" seems like the wrong feature if the SMS data gave you only a bitcoin address
20:52 < nmz787> nah that was a prior operation
20:53 < nmz787> i figured screw it for now, I wouldn't sweep
20:53 < nmz787> some stackoverflow post was saying never import keys for a wallet
20:54 < nmz787> but they seemed to be concerned with security of physical keys or something
20:54 < kanzure> can you show me the post in question?
20:54 < nmz787> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/29948/why-doc-says-importing-private-keys-is-so-dangerous/29959#29959?newreg=e41af27fe5404846b41053c026969859
20:55 < nmz787> well I shouldn't have pasted all that
20:55 < nmz787> but oh well
20:55 < nmz787> also this http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/18619/why-so-many-warnings-about-importing-private-keys
20:55 < nmz787> (I commented on the first question's answer)
20:56 < kanzure> one of the reasons why they recommend against importing private keys is because in bitcoind (the default bitcoin implementation) you might have a backup of your wallet file but adding a private key to the wallet, then losing the wallet means that your backup does not contain the new private key. this has snagged a lot of people, because the behavior isn't the same in the other direction (that is: with the default wallet, there's a number ...
20:56 < kanzure> ... of bitcoin addresses and private keys that are pre-generated and waiting for usage. but it doesn't include the private key that you might import in the future.)
20:57 < kanzure> so when bitcoind launches, the wallet file is given a pre-generated set of maybe 100 private keys for 100 different bitcoin addresses (pay-to-pubkeyhash (P2PKH)). if you take an immediate backup, even if you have never used any of those addresses before taking the backup, the private keys will still be in the backup file.
20:58 < kanzure> and as you can imagine-- users might mistake that neat feature for something like "oh if i import a custom private key, the backup will automagically have that information" and nope it wont because backups only have whatever information they had at the time that the backup was created
21:00 < kanzure> your second stackoverflow link presents an interesting scenario: imagine a paper wallet with a private key given to some victim, who adds the private key into their bitcoin wallet, and perhaps their bitcoin wallet software then uses that private key regularly. this is a problem because wallet software might (especially if it was poorly written software!) send more BTC to that address since "well it's our private key, right?" which is a ...
21:00 < kanzure> ... bad assumption because the originator (the original person) has access to that private key too-- he gave it to you, after all...
21:01 < nmz787> I guess in this case, I dumped the key to myself I think
21:02 < nmz787> (I really don't remember, which is why I originally was going to play it safe and sweep it)
21:02 < nmz787> (but I think I was trying to sweep it into itself, thus I called it a loopback) (but this didn't seem to broadcast, so I don't think I went through with this pointless transaction)
21:03 < nmz787> (but it is not clear that BROADCAST==INITIATE_TRANSACTION
21:03 < nmz787> )
21:03 < kanzure> initiation is a difficult concept in bitcoin land....
21:04 < kanzure> if you create and sign a transaction, is it initiated even if not sent to the network?
21:04 < nmz787> I guess not?
21:05 < kanzure> to make this even more complex, sometimes people hand a signed unconfirmed transaction to another person who can then (at their convenience) broadcast the transaction into the network. as far as the originator is concerned, the transaction was "initiated" the moment he handed it off to the other person. but the network still hasn't seen the transaction yet.
21:08 < nmz787> farmer says "i've never had it take more than 30 secs" (to transact)
21:09 < nmz787> this is the supposed transaction I made https://blockchain.info/tx/aee2320b6e9bb536e83a331675eb3712c7cec8655cc41c86e048b0796aa7c2eb
21:11 < kanzure> great now you have deanonymized yourself :P
21:12 < kanzure> you had a 0.00001 BTC fee, a 0.00001 BTC output, and a 0.99998 BTC output
21:13 < nmz787> so apparently he is using mycelium, so maybe that's why it takes only 30 secs?
21:14 < nmz787> (for his prev transactions)
21:14 < kanzure> bitcoin transactions take on average about 10 minutes to confirm, 30 seconds is wildly unlikely
21:14 < kanzure> he probably just means network propagation of the unconfirmed transaction
21:14 < nmz787> idk, he hasn't seen anything show up, as he put it
21:14 < kanzure> unconfirmed transactions mean that they have not been added to the blockchain but they might be broadcasted to a large number of nodes on the network (or not!)
21:15 < nmz787> and i did this maybe 30 mins ago now
21:15 < kanzure> are you sure one of the outputs is his bitcoin address?
21:15 < nmz787> some post online said avg is 1 hour for 6 blocks of periods or some shit
21:15 < nmz787> it came from his SMS message
21:15 < kanzure> so you have physically confirmed that the bitcoin address in the list of outputs is the one that he gave you?
21:16 < nmz787> when I pasted it from the sms to the browser,the same transaction code shows up as is on my laptop
21:16 < kanzure> send it to me by PM
21:17 < nmz787> it looks like it is in the page i just sent
21:17 < nmz787> the blockchain transaction
21:17 < kanzure> ah okay.
21:18 < nmz787> the one getting the tiny microbtc
21:18 < kanzure> his mycelium client might be configured to only show transactions after 6 confirmations, but this is a somewhat unusual configuration-- usually bitcoin wallets will show unconfirmed transactions
21:18 < nmz787> yeah idk
21:18 < nmz787> what is weird is when I click the adddress, i.e. https://blockchain.info/address/1E9pdHRGnpJSerSnBUpc2J6jXe6SLznVoS?sort=0
21:19 < nmz787> i only see that transaction, no prev, like he mentioned about (prev transactions taking 30 secs)
21:19 < kanzure> in bitcoin land, when someone gives you a bitcoin address, it's usually a new and unique bitcoin address
21:19 < nmz787> lame
21:19 < kanzure> personally i have many thousands of bitcoin addresses that i use for myself
21:20 < nmz787> that's a disorder
21:20 < kanzure> e.g. i never keep more than ~$50 together
21:20 < nmz787> it's in the DSM-IV
21:20 < kanzure> well the idea is that when i spend any bitcoin funds, i don't want everyone and their dog to know how much money i have
21:20 < nmz787> yeah I was thinking about that
21:20 < kanzure> seems like one of those privacy things, huh?
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21:20 < nmz787> this slowness seems annoyyin
21:21 < nmz787> annoying*
21:21 < kanzure> your transaction fee is uncharacteristically low, but it's not your fault (electrum doesn't do transaction fee estimation, i think)
21:21 < kanzure> mycelium might do transaction fee estimation
21:21 < kanzure> anyway, since you are transacting 1 BTC, it's likely that the transaction will be picked up by a miner
21:21 < nmz787> i actually tried to make it go as low as i could in the GUI
21:22 < kanzure> transaction priority is determined by transaction fee amount but also things like "size of bitcoin inputs"
21:22 < kanzure> s/size/amount
21:22 < nmz787> is there a way to estimate shipping charges?
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21:22 < kanzure> is that a bitcoin question?
21:23 < nmz787> it would have been nice to know if I could have got better speed for some stupid cheap amount
21:23 < nmz787> yeah
21:23 < kanzure> yes there are ways to do transaction fee estimation--- i think bitcoind does this (the default wallet) but uh, you might want to just go try mycelium
21:23 < kanzure> mycelium is probably more user friendly than electrum
21:23 < kanzure> plus there's an android client
21:24 < nmz787> well at least electrum let me type in the key... the android wallet thing wanted to use the camera only
21:24 < nmz787> and doesn't do OCR apparently
21:24 < nmz787> (tried pointing it at the text editor)
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21:25 < kanzure> the lazy way to figure out transaction fees is to use something like https://bitcoinfees.21.co/
21:25 < kanzure> oh that only shows "fee per byte" uh... one sec.
21:25 < kanzure> "For the median transaction size of 226 bytes, this results in a fee of 6,780 satoshis (0.02$)."
21:26 < kanzure> "The fastest and cheapest transaction fee is currently 30 satoshis/byte, shown in green at the top."
21:27 < kanzure> okay well there you go-- for now it is probably accurate to just say $0.01 or $0.02 in transaction fees to get good results.
21:29 < nmz787> damn mycelium app won't let me type the key in
21:30 < nmz787> who does UX for these apps, such that normal nerds can't use them?
21:31 < nmz787> it only allows camera, clipboard, some trezor-account, ledger-account, random-key
21:31 < nmz787> so dumb
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21:45 < nmz787> kanzure: so I can't reliably use this same address to always pay the same person?
21:45 < nmz787> as in, their client might forget about this address?
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21:47 < nmz787> so now even if I sweep these coins, my anonymity is broken, because all further transactions will be linked, right?
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 30 00:00:14 2016