--- Log opened Mon Jun 13 00:00:29 2016
00:23 -!- nildicit_ [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:27 -!- nildicit [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
01:00 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-178-000-182-226.178.000.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:02 -!- nildicit__ [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:06 -!- nildicit_ [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
01:17 < archels> nmz787: AD should have some good chips for that
01:20 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-178-000-182-226.178.000.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
01:29 -!- drewbot_ [~cinch@ec2-54-159-215-251.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:30 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-234-195-36.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:14 -!- Jaw_ [~Jawmare@unaffiliated/jawmare] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
02:24 -!- nildicit__ [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
04:26 -!- nildicit [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:34 -!- Jawmare [~Jawmare@unaffiliated/jawmare] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:37 -!- jtimon [~quassel@4.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:51 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:382d:111c:a223:e7eb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:06 -!- juri_ [~juri@192.94.73.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
06:16 < archels> these new Joylent granola bars taste even stranger than Joylent itself
06:16 < archels> their only redeeming factor is chocolate
06:30 < c0rw1n> chocolate one is somewhat better than the banana one yes
06:33 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-13-54.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:39 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:39 < chris_99> random question, anyone know if thin latex is likely to be permeable to IR
06:39 < yoleaux> 05:39Z <nmz787> chris_99: hey do you know any good chips with a Programmable Gain Amplifier (PGA) for pre-ADC?
06:39 < yoleaux> 05:41Z <nmz787> chris_99: preferably something that can run micropython :/
06:39 < chris_99> nmz787, i've used an ADC with a PGA
07:02 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@124.213-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
07:03 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@124.213-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:14 < archels> someone recommended me https://en.todoist.com/
07:15 < archels> maybe this is right for me http://todotxt.com/
07:15 < kanzure> .title https://cibolo.us/pipermail/open_electroporator/2016-June/000087.html
07:15 < yoleaux> [Open_electroporator] Culture Shock, the open electroporator is a go
07:16 < chris_99> i used to use todoist iirc
07:17 < archels> from "26 reasons not to use GTD":
07:17 < archels> 22. Panic focuses the mind
07:17 < archels> We’ve already pointed out that most people naturally prioritize their work by waiting till the important stuff becomes urgent, then panicking and getting on with it. If GTD works, then you’ll lose the focus that panic can bring. And if it doesn’t, why do it?
07:17 < archels> lol.
07:19 < maaku> archels: wtf 'our product brings your panic and stress' is a selling point?
07:19 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-13-54.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
07:19 < maaku> archels: what OS do you use?
07:25 < archels> Linux/KDE
07:25 < archels> Android on my phone
07:35 < JayDugger> kanzure, do those methods of "certain overarching topic feeds" and the other one do anything other than reinforce past conversation history?
07:36 < JayDugger> I don't mean that as a rhetorical question, but seriously. I'd rather be at least a little surprised by what you (in the generic user sense) tell me, even if I suspect that the suggestions push me in a particular direction. I.e., "Oh, he suggested this to me because he thought it would do me good."
07:37 < kanzure> without a specific and monitored method with a procedure written down, for all i know i might as well already be doing simple "reinforcement" based on previous topics, i don't know
07:38 < maaku> archels: then todoist is probably the best for you
07:38 < JayDugger> That's fair.
07:39 < maaku> i used them for a short while, then went back to OmniFocus on OS X. nobody tops OF, but todoist comes closest
07:40 < JayDugger> maaku, does OF's location-based reminders work well enough to deserve using?
07:40 < JayDugger> I.e., the ad copy "Walk by a grocery store and your wrist will get a tap; pick up some milk and bread."
07:41 < maaku> JayDugger: I haven't use them. (I have an Android phone, so I haven't used themobile version much)
07:42 < JayDugger> Pity. I'd like a nice reliable prospective memory amplifer, and that sounds as if it might work.
07:42 < maaku> I have it on my iPod touch though (which lacks location services), and just instilled the habit of looking at the list for the store I'm visiting, or the entire errands context if I have spare time on a commute
07:42 < maaku> JayDugger: I have no reason to think it wouldn't work as advertised. I just don't have the hardware to test it.
07:44 < JayDugger> Hmm...that should work, but it relies on remembering to cultivate the habit. I've had less success with that than I'd like.
07:48 -!- Orpheon [~Orpheon@63.75.62.81.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:02 < maaku> as I said if you have an iPhone the location-aware notifications probably just work as advertised. Omni is pretty good about this stuff.
08:02 < maaku> i just happen to have a Nexus, so no mobile interface for me.
08:23 < mz_o__> 8
08:24 < mz_o__> messed up my irssi command. my bad
08:28 < JayDugger> My to-do list reminds me to do the housework. Thank you, maaku, and you too, kanzure.
08:28 < maaku> np
09:09 -!- sandeepkr_ [~sandeep@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:12 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@111.235.64.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
09:14 -!- sandeepkr__ [~sandeep@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:18 -!- sandeepkr__ [~sandeep@111.235.64.4] has quit [Client Quit]
09:18 -!- sandeepkr_ [~sandeep@111.235.64.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
09:18 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:41 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:42 -!- mf1008 [~mf1008@unaffiliated/mf1008] has quit [Quit: Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui]
09:44 -!- mf1008 [~mf1008@unaffiliated/mf1008] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:55 < andytoshi> i wonder if there are even NLP tools out there that can read irc and unweave conversation threads
09:56 < andytoshi> or better, packetize individual conversations
09:56 -!- dustinm` [~dustinm@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
09:56 < maaku> andytoshi: Yes, if by that you mean "is there known technology that solves this problem"
09:56 < andytoshi> that's half of what i mean
09:57 < maaku> it'd take a lot of hard work and elbow greese to actually do so though
09:57 < andytoshi> the other half is "is there stuff i can download that'll work with irc"
09:57 < maaku> no
09:57 < maaku> it's something I would like to see written
09:57 < kanzure> if you write up the outline, i think a bunch of bored machine learning people would probably do it
09:59 < andytoshi> there are bored machine learning people with spare cycles?
09:59 < maaku> lots
09:59 < maaku> see r/machinelearning
10:00 < andytoshi> wow
10:01 -!- Aurelius_Work2 [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
10:02 < maaku> andytoshi: I can give you an intuitive mathmatician's argument for how this works
10:02 < andytoshi> i'd like that
10:03 < maaku> imagine a massive multi-dimensional space, where most dimensions are concepts
10:04 < maaku> e.g. the two vector space (Gender, Royal) where (male, 1) = King and (female, 1) = Queen, (male, 0) = man, etc.
10:04 < andytoshi> yep, i gotcha. (i took a first-year AI survey course once :P)
10:05 < maaku> ok awesome makes this easier
10:05 < andytoshi> s/first/third/ actually, i had to learn a bunch of lisp and write a neural net in C
10:05 < maaku> then you add a few dimensions representing nicks, and one representing time
10:05 < andytoshi> (to give an idea of where the prof was comingfrom)
10:05 < maaku> then you feed in the IRC log, and you start building up a point cloud in this space
10:06 < maaku> (using standard NLP techniques to reduce sentences to thought vectors in this space, tools exist for this)
10:06 < andytoshi> gotcha so far
10:06 < andytoshi> ok cool, i was gonna ask about the granularity of points
10:07 < maaku> then you just need to separate this point cloud into groupings by region, tools also exist for this
10:07 < maaku> and then you have the IRC log separated by topic
10:07 < andytoshi> kool, that makes sense in principle
10:07 < maaku> and if you have two separate groupings separated only by time, then you know those are related, etc.
10:07 < andytoshi> but for example « kool, that makes sense in principle » does not have any strong concepts associated to it (i think)
10:08 < kanzure> andytoshi: that would require something like conversation structure parsing or something.
10:08 < andytoshi> you'd have a lot of "ok" and "yeah"s to deal with, i mean
10:09 -!- Aurelius_Work [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:10 -!- juri_ [~juri@192.94.73.195] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:10 < maaku> that's where the elbow grease comes in .. you can't consider each line in isolation (as you point out), so you'd have to match these isolates based on the final grouping
10:11 < maaku> and once you know the context of a single statement, that could in principle give you a better thought vector representation of it (because you'd resolve pronoun referents, etc), but this is wandering into open areas of research
10:11 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@2a00:f41:50e5:e456:de85:deff:fe55:967a] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:12 < andytoshi> i think you can probably get away with just grouping based on temporal proximity for fragments that aren't well-defined
10:12 < andytoshi> and by concatenating adjacent things written by one person
10:13 < maaku> yeah i suspect that would get you 90% there and work well enough for the whole thing to be useful in practice
10:13 < andytoshi> yeah. an immediately useful thing would be for it to just text me when certain people are discussing certain things
10:14 < maaku> plus it is rare that an IRC channel (at least the ones I frequent) have more than 1 serious conversation going on. it's mostly the overlap and topic transition that you need to detect.
10:14 < maaku> andytoshi: right
10:14 < kanzure> for my conversation log stuff, i should just use a bloom filter over topics, and just send the bloom filter to each person
10:15 < andytoshi> yeah, me too. but i often go to -wizards and there's like five lines of crypto squished between a bunch of stuff about bramc's work or proof of storage or smart contracts
10:18 < andytoshi> kanzure: i think to the extent that'd be useful it'd be too privacy invasive .. like if you'd update the bloom filter every day i'd have a pretty good idea of what you're talking about at all times
10:19 < kanzure> i think you have a pretty good idea of what i'm talking about all the time /anyway/
10:19 < andytoshi> otoh if you don't update it often i'll be like "oh, bryan talked about multisignatures with somebody, but that's probably the same conversation from last week"
10:19 < andytoshi> hehehe
10:25 < maaku> andytoshi: preserving privacy of interests is sortof an anti-goal here
10:26 < andytoshi> then i'm unsure the benefit of publishing a bloom filter instead of the actual contents (or metadata)
10:27 < andytoshi> i guess volume
10:27 < kanzure> design is probably broken. i'm still lost re: figuring out relevant metrics and goals.
10:28 < andytoshi> kanzure: so, i can't keep up with IRC. not even hplus and wizards. nor can i keep up with my news emails (which are much more self-contained and probably a better candidate for prototyping anything)
10:28 < maaku> andytoshi: i think he means is he needs a filter definition to decide what information gets transmitted to which people
10:28 < andytoshi> all those things are 90% shit though
10:28 < maaku> which a region definition in concept space would provide
10:28 < andytoshi> if i could get at just the topics i care about (or ones related to things i care about) then i'd be fine
10:28 < maaku> (which in practice would be created from a bunch of 'did you find this helpful?'yes/no responses)
10:29 < maaku> i hope this channel is less than 90% shit ;)
10:30 < andytoshi> lol, yes, this channel has a very high snr ratio. but still probably half of it is things i don't know enough about to grok
10:30 < andytoshi> hmm i'll bet there's canned software for doing email filtering. i tried doing this with spamassassin and it didn't work at alll
10:31 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ybajueiealwfetmu] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
10:45 < kanzure> .title http://ropengov.github.io/r/2016/06/10/FOI/
10:45 < yoleaux> Scientific journal subscription costs in Finland 2010-2015: a preliminary analysis — rOpenGov
10:45 < nmz787_i> sooo, ethereum?
10:49 < kanzure> what would you like to know
10:49 -!- nildicit_ [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:50 -!- sandeepkr_ [~sandeep@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:51 -!- dustinm [~dustinm@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:52 -!- nildicit [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:53 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@111.235.64.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
10:55 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@185.66.252.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
10:56 -!- sandeepkr_ [~sandeep@111.235.64.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
10:56 -!- Aurelius_Work2 [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:00 -!- Aurelius_Work [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
11:03 < nmz787_i> is ethereum 'good'? in y'alls opinion?
11:03 -!- Orpheon [~Orpheon@63.75.62.81.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:04 -!- nildicit_ is now known as nildicit
11:04 < kanzure> not a good question
11:09 -!- mag1c_Erbby [~mag1c_Erb@77.38.31.175] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:09 < mag1c_Erbby> hello :)
11:09 < kanzure> greetings.
11:11 < mag1c_Erbby> im  thinking about doing some shit.. what do you recommend ? im new to all of this :)
11:22 < mag1c_Erbby> ?
11:22 < nmz787_i> mag1c_Erbby: what are you interests and skills?
11:22 < andytoshi> are you interested in natural language processing and classification?
11:24 -!- mag1c_Erbby [~mag1c_Erb@77.38.31.175] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"]
11:25 < andytoshi> guess not
11:33 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Quit: leaving]
11:33 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:40 -!- jaboja [~jaboja@2a00:f41:50e5:e456:de85:deff:fe55:967a] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:59 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:00 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:17 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@111.235.64.4] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:26 -!- jtimon [~quassel@4.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
12:28 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:33 -!- jtimon [~quassel@4.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:39 < juri_> doing things is hard. can i just philosophize uselessly, write bad scifi starring cats i want to sleep with, and wait for nerds to do everything for me?
12:46 -!- R3n3gAde1 [~Owner121@d108-181-118-71.abhsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:46 < kanzure> what hard things are you up to?
12:49 -!- R3n3gAde [~Owner121@d108-181-118-71.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
12:50 < nmz787_i> juri_: met a guy few days ago that reminded me of you, he made an induction heater for melting metal
12:51 < nmz787_i> something about 100 Amp service just for that circuit
12:51 < nmz787_i> and 0-gauge wire not being big enough for very sustained time of use
12:51 < juri_> kanzure: I'm on month 2 of a rewrite of the linux kernel's built-in implementation of iscsi.
12:52 -!- Orpheon [~Orpheon@63.75.62.81.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:52 < juri_> other that that.. moving infrastructure to a series of pcduino3 boards, and building a pick-and-place-and-print-and-laser machine.
12:52 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
12:52 < juri_> nmz787: docs, please. ;)
12:53 < juri_> that's something i'm discussing with a student, tonight.
12:57 < kanzure> bad kernel scifi might be interesting, though
12:57 < juri_> but where do the cats come in? people want the cats.
12:59 -!- iaglium [~i@c-73-224-87-206.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
13:02 -!- Aurelius_Work2 [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
13:02 < archels> .g A shared neural ensemble links distinct contextual
13:02 < yoleaux> archels: Sorry, that command (.g) crashed.
13:03 < archels> fail²
13:03 < archels> .title http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v534/n7605/full/nature17955.html
13:03 < yoleaux> A shared neural ensemble links distinct contextual memories encoded close in time : Nature : Nature Publishing Group
13:10 -!- Aurelius_Work [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:19 -!- Aurelius_Work2 [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:22 -!- Aurelius_Work [~cpopell@209.48.69.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
13:41 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.83] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:42 -!- esmerelda [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
13:49 < nmz787_i> it would be interesting to try printing a semiconductor device using a finely focused laser and various starting powders (silicon, dopants) in a laser-induced melting process
13:49 < nmz787_i> theorhetically it might then be possible to use solar irradiation coupled with a fresnel lens and some wavelenght filtering somehow (grating, prism or or metalens)
13:50 < nmz787_i> and demo a solar-powered chip printer
13:50 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/open-electroporator/homemade-electroporator-1991.pdf
13:51 < nmz787_i> yeah, depends on that C1 capacitor
13:51 < nmz787_i> so can't change the pulse shape
13:58 < chris_99> i think i looked at a diy electroporator a while ago, am i right in thinking the BOM comes out >= £400
13:59 < nmz787_i> there are several DIY builds, with varying BOM costs
13:59 < nmz787_i> that one in particular looks closer to $200
13:59 < chris_99> ah interesting
13:59 < nmz787_i> the one kanzure is (I think and hope) funding should be around $30 BOM
13:59 < chris_99> oh wow, i thought the caps needed where expensive for some reason
14:00 < nmz787_i> this design eliminates the caps ;)
14:00 < nmz787_i> using induction
14:00 < chris_99> oh interesting
14:01 < nmz787_i> PWM some FETs, they pulse a low-side of a coil with low or medium voltage, coil produces HV... have parallel channels of this setup, and overlap pulses to elongate
14:01 < nmz787_i> PWM duty cycle on FETs should allow variable voltage on the pulse as well
14:01 < nmz787_i> for varying the field strength
14:01 < chris_99> what voltage/current do you need to produce for it?
14:02 < nmz787_i> he says it will drive a 30kOhm load, so you can do the math based on say 3 kV
14:03 < nmz787_i> but then there will be some wiggle room, since cuvettes vary (electrode spacing) and species and strains vary as far as needs
14:03 < chris_99> is that 300W then
14:03 < nmz787_i> chris_99: the terms are usually in volts/cm for field strength
14:04 < chris_99> ahh
14:04 < nmz787_i> err MOhm maybe?
14:04 < nmz787_i> I can't remember
14:04 < nmz787_i> err
14:04 < nmz787_i> no it says kohms
14:04 < chris_99> oh btw, it was an ADC i used, with a PGA, not sure if that's of any help
14:05 < nmz787_i> "E.Coli 12-18kV/cm, test at 5msec pulse, adjust from that starting point for efficiency tuning                             S.cerevisieae ~7.5kV/cm, start at 5msec pulse"
14:05 < nmz787_i> ah, I was looking for MCU integrated
14:05 < chris_99> ah gotcha
14:05 < nmz787_i> http://imgur.com/TmwPOho
14:05 < nmz787_i> http://imgur.com/a/swOXq
14:05 < nmz787_i> chris_99: ^
14:06 < chris_99> cool, will have a look, is there a simple experiment you can do with electroporation, without needing really expensive plasmids (if that's the right term)
14:08 < nmz787_i> yep
14:08 < nmz787_i> GFP or glowing e coli
14:09 < nmz787_i> basically it makes transforming organisms generally easier and less reagent intensive
14:09 < chris_99> is there a kit for glowing yeast, i thought it was harder to get a plasmid for them?
14:09 < nmz787_i> probably is, not sure how easily obtainable
14:12 < nmz787_i> I wish this existed for non-Apple:http://structure.io/
14:12 < nmz787_i> .title
14:12 < yoleaux> nmz787_i: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.
14:12 < nmz787_i> .title http://structure.io/
14:12 < yoleaux> Structure Sensor - 3D scanning, augmented reality, and more for mobile devices
14:12 < chris_99> did you see the google radar-y type thing
14:12 < nmz787_i> hmm, no, project tango?
14:13 < chris_99> https://atap.google.com/soli/
14:13 < kanzure> nmz787_i: yep sent over the money last night
14:15 < nmz787_i> is it ready to use?
14:15 < nmz787_i> I think they sent me an invite a while ago
14:15 < nmz787_i> but I didn't have any steam to work on it
14:15 < nmz787_i> oh, but they sent it to me for the whole project tango device
14:15 < nmz787_i> this seems different or new
14:16 < chris_99> yeah i think this is new
14:16 < chris_99> i think this is RF, isn't tango ToF
14:16 < chris_99> with light
14:16 < nmz787_i> i thought it was many sensors being used at once
14:17 < chris_99> oh
14:17 < chris_99> hmm
14:17 < nmz787_i> (as in maybe this will be incorporated)
14:17 < nmz787_i> not sure
14:25 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:37 < kanzure> "the task should be to build the analog circuit and connect it to any simple square wave generator  (which can be soldered together in 10 mins from an LM556 chip and needs no software).  Then see if the HV pulse has any real working characteristics using an HV probe to an oscilloscope.    what I see instead, is wizz-bang hitech sounding device ("wow! it has bluetooth!") with no prototype bench testing at all."
14:37 < kanzure> "micropython is completely unsuitable for this task.  Look up the instruction cycle time and latency of micropython.  It is great but not good enough for a control system.  The timing and control loops need to be written in assembly for a stable product i.e. instruction cycles counted.  Lightening will create biology so sure, zapping something with any kind of shape might work sometimes, but obviously, repeatability and yield needs to be ...
14:37 < kanzure> ... maximum."
14:38 < kanzure> "Basically he's saying:  let's take a microcontroller and some transistors with the transistors connected to a medium voltage rail (28VDC), and have the microcontrollers switch these, to make a square wave, which can then be assumed to become like a sine wave AC. (It won't)    Then let's take that supposed-to-be-AC signal and run it thru a transformer to boost the AC voltage x57.   So let's see.  28VDC minus let's say 3VDC for FET loss = ...
14:38 < kanzure> ... 0.5 to 25VDCmax at 1 mA  [No mention of how to remove DC from the output waveform; it needs filtering]  * 57 = 1425VAC peak-to-peak (theoretically but really less) at 0.015 mA, then suggested to double that with a capacitor diode bridge (which will add incredible amounts of EM noise)"
14:38 < kanzure> "perhaps it could yield high voltage output at very low current like 1 uA.  The microcontroller will reset itself due to EM noise.   The diode doubler will arc on the output because there is no discharge path, so it will be more like a very unreliably shapen spark, rather than a HV square pulse.   I have doubts that a diode doubler is useful for reliable HV output.  Forget building the enclosure, forget the microcontroller, do some ...
14:38 < kanzure> ... measurements and prototyping with that analog circuit first.  A bunch of time will be saved, showing that the circuit doesn't transform anything with suitable yield"
14:38 < kanzure> "A better design would not use FETs at all, it would use a sine wave generator directly (very simple circuit) with dual rail power supply (ie -9V and 9V is very common, or -12V and 12V) to drive a clean AC signal into the transformer.  Start with a dirty input like the FET idea and the output can never be clean."
14:39 < kanzure> "
14:39 < kanzure> "Also no mention of HV digital switch on the output, which is critical"
14:39 < nmz787_i> where is this from, and why is he mentioning sine waves?
14:39 < nmz787_i> (they)
14:39 < kanzure> http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1234000002036/ch06.html
14:40 < kanzure> sheeet i forgot about that article. damn.
14:40 < nmz787_i> that really isn't that related though
14:40 < nmz787_i> as in, the HV supply can be had as an available part
14:41 < nmz787_i> also, his micropython blast seems muted by this: https://micropython.org/doc/tut-asm
14:42 < kanzure> don't worry about his micropython blast, replacing a single chip in a design is trivial
14:42 < nmz787_i> I also really don't get this AC sine wave reference
14:42 < kanzure> or, if the chip supports non-micropython stuff, then all the better... it doesn't matter.
14:42 < nmz787_i> where is this stemming from, as in what tipped this line of thinking off?
14:42 < nmz787_i> kanzure: exactly, that is firmware level and can be changed
14:42 < kanzure> i could ask him a question about his sine wave obsession, what should be asked?
14:43 < nmz787_i> "why are you talking about sine waves and AC?"
14:43 < kanzure> is it possible that he thinks the output needs to be AC?
14:44 < nmz787_i> possible, but why, and if no reason, then seems unfamiliarity with the desired application
14:44 < nmz787_i> or didn't read carefully
14:45 < kanzure> "I quickly reskimmed and saw the voltage is generated directly from the battery which is what, 3.7VDC max. Yea, pretty much I don't think this prototype is going to work. No mention of precision voltage regulator either compared to the amount of details on the microcontroller (honestly who cares about the microcontroller they are all the same).   Imagine what happens when a digital IC with the common ground near an HV circuit gets noise ...
14:45 < kanzure> ... from a discharge arc of several hundred volts.  Very unstable."
14:46 < nmz787_i> this guy is seeming out of touch with reality... voltage regulators are not advertising points, they are common knowledge and easily sourced dime-a-dozen parts
14:47 < kanzure> sent.
14:49 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-178-000-182-226.178.000.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:52 -!- CuriousCat [~CuriousCa@unaffiliated/wye-naught/x-8734122] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:53 < nmz787_i> Also where is this person seeing a diode voltage doubler? I can't find a block diagram myself now
14:54 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/open-electroporator/pyzappa-open-electroporator-project-proposal.v0.3.pdf
14:54 < kanzure> first paragraph
14:54 < kanzure> near the end
14:55 < nmz787_i> hmm
14:55 < nmz787_i> not sure why there wouldn't be a discharge path... that is the electrolyte solution
14:56 < kanzure> "The suggested transformer & diode doubler requires AC input.  If input is a malformed wave then the output will also be malformed. There are many many articles on electroporation wave shape in EE journals, that are really good hard data articles.. (because, they're written by engineers)  IEEE journals or Electrophoresis journal."
14:56 < nmz787_i> or a bleed-down/snubber resistor or capacitor maybe
14:56 < kanzure> "Lightening is not a clean wave and it will transform "some" bacteria when it hits the ground.  But to maximize yield and reproducability in a lab, the output signal has to also be as clean and reproducible as possible, not just some long chain of dirty sparks.   The output does not have to be sine shaped AC HV but it does have to have a clean, reproducible shape.  Ideal would be an HV square wave pulse train.  But that will be ...
14:56 < kanzure> ... impossible to achieve in a circuit."
14:56 < nmz787_i> wave shape really doesn't matter for this
14:57 < nmz787_i> even biorad says that
14:57 < nmz787_i> well maybe it was not biorad
14:57 < nmz787_i> maybe it is the electroporation review manual/book I have
14:58 < nmz787_i> also not sure why he is referring to a geological/natural occurence of lightning
14:58 < nmz787_i> this is not randomly sourced high-voltage
14:58 < nmz787_i> and there isn't AC needed when the pulser is paralleled, I believe
14:59 < nmz787_i> again, I think this person is low on details
14:59 < chris_99> is there a schematic out of curiosity
14:59 < nmz787_i> and I have a feeling I know who it is by their response and tone
14:59 < nmz787_i> /me NLP
14:59 < kanzure> i already leaked who it is
14:59 < nmz787_i> oh
14:59 -!- R3n3gAde1 [~Owner121@d108-181-118-71.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
14:59 < nmz787_i> Jon Cline?
14:59 < kanzure> yea
14:59 < nmz787_i> yeah
15:00 < kanzure> he's wonderful.
15:00 < kanzure> chris_99: nope i don't think there's a schematic at the moment
15:00 < nmz787_i> he generally seems unconstructive/unhappy though, he could be more persuasive and helpful.
15:01 < nmz787_i> I mean, his comments are well thought out, but they lack insight, and he is too quick/busy/high-and-mighty to ask, seeminly.
15:01 < kanzure> this is his way of being constructive.
15:01 < nmz787_i> semingly&
15:01 < nmz787_i> *
15:02 < kanzure> i would bet that a lot of his magic would go away if you forced him to adopt another attitude; i'm fine with how he is.
15:02 < nmz787_i> ok so lots of iteration is needed for this feedback to become useful then
15:02 < nmz787_i> because he is definitely not on the same page as I think John and I are
15:08 < kanzure> hehe.
15:12 < kanzure> i am going to chalk this up to mostly assuming AC output is a requriement
15:13 < nmz787_i> well his reply was regarding the input to the coil
15:13 < nmz787_i> but AC is just DC with a middle-ground
15:14 < nmz787_i> so really I think he just doesn't understand that pulses are desired, single pulses, and potentially these single pulses will want to be overlapped using paraallel circuitry
15:14 < nmz787_i> maybe we need to pay him for an hour of his time, sliced into a few 10 -20 minute blocks
15:15 < nmz787_i> (long enough to read a message, google some stuff, and rant off a few lines/paragraphs)
15:29 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cjdsjeuxtbprihaz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:31 < kanzure> nmz787_i: i'd be happy to do that, but you would have to organize that or whatever.
16:03 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-178-000-182-226.178.000.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:13 -!- CuriousCat [~CuriousCa@unaffiliated/wye-naught/x-8734122] has quit [Quit: * *  *    *        *]
16:42 < fenn> juri_: http://fennetic.net/irc/keroserene_kernland_scaled.png
16:42 -!- Proteus [~Proteus@unaffiliated/proteus] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:45 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:01 -!- nmz787_i1 [ntmccork@nat/intel/x-gcssuefnhiodyhgh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:02 < FourFire> Hi kanzure!
17:02 -!- nmz787_i [~ntmccork@134.134.139.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:02 < fenn> the bit about noise crashing the microcontroller seems pretty relevant
17:02 < FourFire> So my a biohacking group is starting at my hackerspace
17:04 < fenn> maybe optocouplers and a separated/heavily filtered power rail design could isolate it enough to not crash
17:04 < FourFire> I'm in it, and although the threat of "bioethics comittee" already looms am excited about even the possibilities within the law in this, one of the most strictly regulating countries
17:05 < fenn> there's a lot of stuff you can do, especially if you consider collaborating with people in other countries
17:06 < fenn> like, you don't need to actually have the GMO to do science or whatever
17:06 < fenn> you just design the plasmid and order things through the mail to a different address
17:06 < FourFire> I was wondering about a thing  kanzure mentioned earlier, the symbiotic organisms which secrete nootropic in the brain
17:06 < fenn> lol
17:06 < FourFire> of course, I was immediately thinking of you guys
17:06 < fenn> non-human cells living in a brain is generally a bad idea
17:06 < FourFire> this starup/inestor/acceleator guy was there at the start with slides lol
17:07 < nmz787_i1> fenn: its possible a piece of screen-door metal screen would be enough of a faraday cage to shield things
17:07 < fenn> nmz787_i1: not if the controller is connected to the HV circuit with a wire
17:08 < FourFire> "we're restricting all these techs and our tax laws are quite stiffiling, and even though we're pouring 9 billion nok per year on biotech all the startps seem to sell out or move to other countries for some reason?"
17:08 < fenn> i havent really looked at the schematic in detail
17:09 < FourFire> he had a talk basically saying to everyone that if anything "interesting" resulted from the group, then it wold be funded
17:09 < fenn> if he's getting transformers custom made, why bother with the voltage doubler? just get a 100:1 turns ratio transformer instead
17:09 < fenn> but why get custom transformers at all?
17:10 < fenn> FourFire: welp have fun with brain drain
17:10 < fenn> see also BSD
17:10 < FourFire> fenn yeah I eouldn't want to do a human mod for my first bio project ever, but i'm flining ideas at the wall, I want to do something "real" as in interesting, but with potential sale/open source value
17:11 < FourFire> febn hilarious because he brough up cambridge; "there's like 4000 biotech compaies in cambridge" but only 12 per year in Norway
17:12 < FourFire> My plan was generally to get a degree and the travel either to cambridge/oxford, germany,or some USAplace if I had no choice
17:13 < nmz787_i1> fenn: you aren't using a ton of current, so you only have to worry about induction
17:13 < fenn> fourfire you know its cambridge massachusetts right?
17:13 < kanzure> FourFire: there's a lot of potential projects listed here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/
17:13 < FourFire> fenn I may be mixing up my important UK places es
17:13 < fenn> it's in USA
17:13 < fenn> MIT and harvard
17:13 < kanzure> "Cambridge is a university city and the county town of Cambridgeshire, England"
17:14 < FourFire> kanzure, what are the limitations of uhh what's it called when you force mutation rate really high and recursively kill off the population which doesn't exhibit the trait you want
17:14 < kanzure> mutagenesis, selection, antibody selection, etc.
17:14 < fenn> UK has the typical EU anti-GMO insanity
17:14 < FourFire> kanzure, can I get ecoli to excrete modafinil ?
17:15 < nmz787_i1> FourFire: eventually
17:15 < FourFire> nmz787_i1,  does that mean this decade?
17:15 < FourFire> or would that require 1000 lines to select between or othewise ndoable things?
17:17 < FourFire> heh immediately thought hasn't the plastic eating bactria been done?, *read the page title*
17:17 -!- nildicit_ [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:18 < FourFire> oh yeah the accelerator guy specifically mentioned iGEM and CuttingEdge (that conference where A Sandberg talked at my workplace last year) when he meant interesting projects
17:21 -!- nildicit [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
17:21 < FourFire> hah, I used "magnetic bacteria" as a bullshit example to explain mutagenesis selection, I didn't think it actually exsisted
17:22 < FourFire> Alright, thanks for that I'll probably be popping in with more stupid questions.
17:23 -!- augur [~augur@c-73-202-137-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:28 -!- Aurelius_Home [~cpopell@73.200.185.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
17:36 -!- Aurelius_Home [~cpopell@c-73-200-185-48.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:56 -!- Darius_ [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:57 -!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:03 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:14 -!- nmz787_i1 [ntmccork@nat/intel/x-gcssuefnhiodyhgh] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:34 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
18:38 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:52 -!- jtimon [~quassel@4.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:54 -!- jtimon [~quassel@4.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:59 -!- seanph [~seanph@61.152.234.215] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:00 < kanzure> hi.
19:00 < kanzure> ultrasound imaging proposal stuff: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xvLWDbp0x6z0Ft3AsfxjIsLUNsg5smkTcYb1g4WVo5U/edit
19:02 < seanph> hello
19:02 -!- Ivan_ [b4969d1c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.180.150.157.28] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:02 < seanph> @Ivan_ is working with me on hardware projects
19:02 < seanph> we are here to discuss the ultrasound proposal
19:03 < Ivan_> Hi guys!
19:03 < kanzure> fenn: are you around
19:03 < kanzure> nmz787 is grocery shopping because he is mortal and requires food still
19:06 < kanzure> nmz787 was talking about this one https://github.com/kelu124/murgen-dev-kit
19:08 < kanzure> beam power measurement is by hydrophone i think, right?
19:10 < seanph> @kanzure are you talking about safety calibration?
19:11 -!- fleshtheworld [~fleshthew@2602:306:cf0f:4c20:4c0c:7076:fe52:5915] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:11 < fenn> hi
19:12 < kanzure> hydrophones iirc are used for output measurement
19:12 < seanph> @kanzure yeah, I can imagine doing that to characterize the system
19:12 < kanzure> i'm making this up, you have done more work with these projects than i have at this point
19:12 < seanph> @kanzure in normal operation, the piezo transducer both sends and receives
19:13 < kanzure> fenn: nmz787 was pointing out that murgen-dev-ket.git has done a bunch of this work already, although not portable and it seems they use commercial probes (only?)
19:13 < kanzure> 12:43 < nmz787_i> kanzure: 'upgrade murgen's ADC/AFE (analog front end)' or 'enhance image decoding pipeline' or 'add doppleror 3D functionality' are interesting and immediate murgen possible-next-steps (or would make good proposals)
19:14 -!- Ivan_ [b4969d1c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.180.150.157.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
19:15 < fenn> seanph: what do you mean "test on chicken legs" exactly? how do you know if it's safe based on chicken legs?
19:15 < seanph> @fenn you don't, I hadn't thought that safety characterization would be a part of this initial prototyping project
19:15 < kanzure> yeah i liked the beef/meat testing idea, not sure what to do with chicken bones though
19:15 < seanph> @fenn thus the use of dead meat
19:16 < kanzure> with dead meet you can cut the meat and then see if there was any visually-detectable thermal damage
19:16 < kanzure> *meat
19:16 < fenn> that's not very comforting
19:16 < fenn> anyway my only major concern was the use of altium, since basically nobody but professional EEs have it due to the cost
19:17 < seanph> @fenn we're not doing anything unusual, so I think basically there's a step of calibration later on to get the beam strength in safe limits
19:17 < seanph> @fenn that's a valid concern, we are willing to use open source PCB CAD if desired
19:17 < kanzure> 19:49 < fenn> The first full-body human ultrasound -- conducted in the turret of a disused B-29 bomber  http://criticalmedia.uwaterloo.ca/courses/necromedia/
19:18 < seanph> @fenn Ivan is familiar with EAGL, if that's cheap enough. He's also used DesignSpark
19:19 < fenn> eagle would be fine
19:19 < fenn> kicad is best of course, but it can be frustrating
19:20 -!- Ivan_ [b4969d15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.180.150.157.21] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:20 < Ivan_> Sorry guys, my vpn went down
19:21 < seanph> Ivan_ is sitting next to me, saw the messages
19:21 < kanzure> Ivan_: http://gnusha.org/logs/2016-06-13.log
19:21 < kanzure> alright
19:22 < Ivan_> I have tried KiCad before, but it handles libraries components differently from eagleCAD, so I reverted back to that
19:23 < kanzure> looks like the only complaint on the google doc was something about motor sweep, but i think mechanical sweep is fine for this version
19:24 < kanzure> all the signal processing will be fpga icestorm things, so that should work in real-time ish
19:24 < seanph> @kanzure phased array is better for sure, but motor sweep is simpler
19:24 < seanph> @kanzure we were actually thinking lately about just using an FTDI chip and an ADC and processing all on the PC, for simplicity's sake. also makes it more accessible to more people
19:24 < seanph> @kanzure since few people are familiar with HDL
19:25 < seanph> @kanzure but I do have an ICE devkit here we can fall back on if need be
19:25 < kanzure> i have no idea what the processing requirements are
19:25 < seanph> @kanzure I was thinking of a FT232H USB FTDI and LTC2315-12 ADC
19:25 < Ivan_> @kanzure also if we use the PC for processing, the final BOM cost is cheaper
19:26 < seanph> @kanzure PCB design is also easier without an FPGA to place
19:26 < seanph> @kanzure phased array almost certainly needs fpga
19:26 < kanzure> what actual components would be on the FPGA
19:26 < Ivan_> @kanzure the processing requirements can be modest at first
19:26 < streety> Is the aim a 512x256 image refreshed 5 times per second? Seems somewhat ambitious for a mechanical movement, could be totally wrong though
19:26 < Ivan_> hence no fpga
19:27 < kanzure> in the motor sweep (for fpga)
19:28 < kanzure> well if we don't use an fpga then this adds a beaglebone or something to the project (or whatever small board linux is in style these days)
19:28 < fenn> why not an android phone?
19:28 < kanzure> because android ndk makes people miserable? :)
19:28 < kanzure> hm
19:28 < fenn> beaglebone doesn't really add anything though, just realtime guarantees i guess
19:29 < seanph> @streety 60 sweeps is only 30 rpm right? (5 * 60)/2
19:29 < seanph> @kanzure maybe we can even do it on a raspberry pi. but I had figured that most users would have a PC handy anyway
19:29 < kanzure> oh i wouldn't assume a PC
19:29 < fenn> you need a display of some kind
19:29 < seanph> @streety, sorry, 5 sweeps per second
19:29 < kanzure> phone probably makes the most sense....
19:30 < fenn> adding a display to a raspberry pi is just silly when phones are so plentiful
19:30 < seanph> @kanzure we can target the phone. battery usage will probably be high, but I guess one would only use this for a short time
19:31 < kanzure> were you thinking power over usb?
19:31 < seanph> @kanzure no
19:31 < fenn> what powers the ultrasound emitter?
19:31 < juri_> fenn: nice. ;)
19:31 < seanph> @kanzure power over USB was a major constraint of mobisante. I think it adds too much complexity to optimize for that in this first phase
19:31 < streety> would you need to pause the movement at each pixel or would it be a smooth movement?
19:31 < juri_> nmz787: documentation! :P
19:31 < seanph> @streety yes, it's a stepper motor
19:32 < nmz787> sup
19:32 < kanzure> seanph: btw this place is publicly logged so maybe mobisante/confidentiality stuff (i dunno what applies there)
19:32 < nmz787> seanph: myHDL for Python ;)
19:32 < seanph> @kanzure ah okay. I think what I said was public, but I will be careful :_
19:32 < seanph> @kanzure thanks :)
19:32 < nmz787> reading backlog for last hour or so
19:33 < kanzure> haha myhdl/python... nah, i think seanph could be convinced to write regular HDL things... but yeah, i guess it makes sense to reduce the amount of HDL written even if we do use an fpga....
19:33 < seanph> @kanzure I figure that a super simple thing that uses C++ is accessible to a lot more people
19:34 < nmz787> I like the condom with gel balls inside... seemed like a good non-rottable test subject
19:34 < seanph> @kanzure then can get fancier in later phases
19:34 < seanph> @nmz787 definitely the place to start
19:35 < fenn> so does the probe have its own battery or is it plugged into a wall wart?
19:35 < nmz787> eagle should be avoided if you're avoiding Altium... otherwise just use altium (they're both closed)
19:35 < kanzure> what
19:35 < fenn> eagle has a free version which is good enough for most people
19:36 < fenn> i'm more concerned about accessibility than open source purity
19:36 < kanzure> alright that's verging on navelgazing
19:36 < kanzure> yes
19:36 < seanph> @fenn we can add a battery without much trouble if that's desired
19:36 < kanzure> but what was the plan w/o battery?
19:36 < kanzure> without
19:37 < seanph> @kanzure wall wart
19:37 < nmz787> fenn: srsly?
19:37 < nmz787> fenn: you disappoint my open-source computation engine
19:38 < Ivan_> the free eagle version makes the board size limited and only lets you use two layers
19:38 < fenn> maybe kicad has improved in the past five years, but i wouldn't force the version i used on anyone
19:38 < nmz787> kicad is amazing
19:38 < nmz787> it has improved dramatically over the past 2 years
19:38 < nmz787> thanks to CERN money
19:39 < kanzure> i predict much timewasting on this topic
19:39 < Ivan_> I gave it a shot about four years ago
19:39 < Ivan_> didn't work out, tried DesignSpark
19:39 < nmz787> we can just move on and screw re-usability for poor kids in africa
19:39 < nmz787> or pay someone $4 an hour somewhere to convert it later
19:40 < kanzure> poor kids... haha.
19:40 < kanzure> yes to that plan
19:40 < nmz787> send them GIFs of each section and layer of the final closed-board
19:40 < nmz787> so is power really a concern?
19:40 < Ivan_> @nmz787 that can be done
19:40 < nmz787> seems like a plan for improvement
19:41 < seanph> @nmz787 I think that the power can be optimized for, to run off of the phone, but this is just a prototype phase
19:41 < seanph> @nmz787 MVP
19:41 < nmz787> getting /something/ for a reasonable price, that is easy to produce and reproduce (by lesser skilled folks), and that has a hackable processing pipeline (that software neckbeards can jump into contributing DSP for) would be nice
19:42 < fenn> so.. stepper motors have 200 steps/rev which means only 33 full steps in a 60 degree scan window, how do you end up with 512x256 resolution?
19:42 < nmz787> would an FTDI be high enough bandwidth for raw dumping to PC?
19:42 < seanph> @fenn there would be gearing for sure
19:43 < fenn> huh i hadn't considered gears
19:43 < fenn> do you know about microstepping?
19:43 < nmz787> seanph: Ivan_ have you heard of the Daisho project? It aimed to provide an HDL USB 3.0 superSpeed module
19:44 < nmz787> gears will add more of a state-machine to your this-step-means-this-physical-position calculation
19:44 < fenn> yeah gears have backlash
19:45 < nmz787> well not just that, but if youre rotating, 0-degrees tilt may not be the same tooth of the gear
19:46 < nmz787> so mechanical fab will come into play with non-uniformity of the gear
19:46 < fenn> meh even cheap gears are pretty precise
19:46 < seanph> @fenn yeah, perhaps microstepping is a better idea. the motor driver DRV8833 that I am thinking of using can do 32 microsteps
19:46 < seanph> @fenn so that solves that issue
19:47 < streety> the movement is going to be fast, there is not much time to play with. If you consider 256 positions visited 5 times a second and a max depth of 10cm just sending the sound wave and waiting for it to return will take 0.166 seconds
19:47 < streety> * going to need to be fast
19:48 < streety> that's based on a speed of sound of 1540 m/s
19:48 < kanzure> speed of sound changes for different materials like human organs
19:48 < kanzure> or rather, propagation of sound changes
19:48 < kanzure> oops i mean "definitely non-human organs"
19:49 < fenn> streety: .166 ms
19:50 < fenn> assuming a ~12 cm path
19:51 < Ivan_> @nmz787  I looked at the Daisho project, but I couldnt find the exact price tag
19:51 < seanph> @streety 1540 meters per second / 20 cm = 7.7khz no?
19:51 < streety> 0.1 * 2 (there and back) * 5 * 256 / 1540 = 0.166 s
19:52 < Ivan_> @nmz787 also, like we previously mentioned it would be great to keep the first prototype, simple, no fpga and processing on the PC
19:52 < nmz787> Ivan_: it is a block of code, free and open
19:53 < seanph> as for the FTDI, the datarate we need at 8 bits per sample is 40Mbit, and the FT232H should support that. there may be an issue with the SPI interface being limited to 30MBit, now that I review the datasheet
19:53 < nmz787> Ivan_: yeah I was just mentioning it because of USB 3, versus FTDI is limited to 2.0
19:53 < Ivan_> @nmz787 thought that you are refering to the USB 3.0 FPGA platform
19:53 < streety> I just got that speed from a number of sites as a ballpark figure
19:54 < seanph> I'm not sure why we need USB 3 for 40MBit?
19:55 < nmz787> Ivan_: yep, not saying to process on an FPGA, but if you're were comfortable with an FPGA and an FTDI wouldn't do the full bandwidth... maybe you were comfortable enough to just use the daisho for USB transfer
19:55 < nmz787> if it is 40 Mbit then no, 2.0 should be fine
19:59 < fenn> am i the anonymous capybara?
20:00 < fenn> guess i'm just "anonymous"
20:00 < kanzure> is that a philosophical question?
20:00 < fenn> no
20:00 < nmz787> it is confusing as hell
20:01 < nmz787> imagines a rampant varmint who can't be caught
20:02 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/anonymous_capybara.png
20:02 < kanzure> oh, well you're not logged in
20:03 < fenn> for a moment i thought google might be cool again
20:05 < fenn> seanph: if you haven't used it, i highly recommend thermomorph/polycaprolactone/fantastic plastic for prototypes
20:05 < seanph> @fenn we have some here I think :)
20:06 < seanph> @fenn we work out of http://www.xinfab.com/ and http://xinchejian.com/
20:11 < nmz787> sooo
20:11 < nmz787> 3D and doppler
20:11 < nmz787> what are the requirements hardware wise?
20:11 < nmz787> would they exist in the first plan? how many iterations to get to that?
20:11 < nmz787> (non software)
20:11 < nmz787> (also, software is important but decoupled... I cannot do such software)
20:11 < seanph> @nmz787 we think we can do doppler with this hardware, just a software thing
20:12 < Ivan_> @nmz787 for the 3d we will need a phased array most probably
20:12 < nmz787> just thinking in terms of evolutionary design
20:12 < nmz787> ok, how about the hardware then
20:12 < fenn> it would help to add an accelerometer and gyro for 3D
20:12 < nmz787> are you taking an existing design, or just design pattern? are you taking i.e. murgen into account?
20:13 < kanzure> nmz787: i don't think we're short on software people, and we can probably coerce seanph into doing software things if needed
20:13 < kanzure> agreed re accelerometer and gyro
20:15 < seanph> @fenn adding those shouldn't be a big deal. we were planning to have an Atmel micro to control and inject frame and line headers into the FTDI data stream, so we could have it talk to MEMS sensors and insert that metadata
20:15 < seanph> @fenn and from there it's software
20:16 < fenn> a simple matter of programming :)
20:16 < seanph> @fenn heh'. yeah not so simple of course. Ivan has experience working with radar signal processing tho, building up the algorithms in matlab first
20:16 < seanph> @fenn it's certainly a stretch goal / out of scope here. but we can toss the MEMS sensors on the PCB so it's possible to do
20:17 < kanzure> also there's some open-source ultrasound signal processing stuff out there. i forget where. i think at least one of them was a "sample" api dev kit thingy from texas instruments.
20:17 < seanph> @kanzure ah cool, definitely will search it
20:17 < kanzure> http://www.ti.com/tool/s2meddus
20:17 < kanzure> "The TI Embedded Processor Software Toolkit for Medical Imaging (STK-MED) is a collection of several standard ultrasound and optical coherence tomography (OCT) algorithms for TI’s C66x™ and C64x+™ architecture. The algorithms showcase how medical imaging functions can leverage the C66x and C64x+ architecture for efficient performance and low power consumption."
20:18 < fenn> yes TI has a bunch of stuff
20:18 < fenn> .title http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/sprab12/sprab12.pdf
20:18 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
20:18 < fenn> "Signal Processing Overview of Ultrasound Systems for Medical Image Processing"
20:19 < fenn> Imaging*
20:23 < fenn> honestly i would be happy with just a volumetric render of raw data that's only been aligned by gyro and accelerometer
20:23 < fenn> isosurfaces are not all that useful really
20:24 < kanzure> fenn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKH1e38B1is
20:24 < fenn> bonus points if the phone can be used to change angle of view by moving it around the patient, but that's getting into a different can of worms
20:25 < fenn> no that youtube video is wrong and dumb and you should be ashamed :P
20:26 < seanph> @fenn would be great to be able to reproduce that. it makes the image a lot more understandable to the untrained eye
20:27 < fenn> easy, just stick a QR code on the probe
20:27 < fenn> i'm talking about something different
20:27 < kanzure> you are talking about visualizing slices in 3 space?
20:28 < fenn> yes like the visible human project
20:28 < kanzure> i don't remember that one
20:29 < fenn> it would probably look more like this http://vis.lbl.gov/Research/ChomboVis99/misc-art/vtk-volume.gif
20:29 < kanzure> i was thinking http://staff.washington.edu/leotta/research/ortho_planes.gif
20:30 < kanzure> or (if this wasn't PET) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/CT_Scan_of_Dale_Mahalko's_brain-skull.jpg
20:30 < fenn> once you get it into a volumetric representation you can slice it however you want
20:31 < fenn> the second one is easy to fake with just opengl textures
20:31 < kanzure> gosh if only we had some opengl folks in here
20:34 < fenn> yeah scan of dale mahalko's brain is a good inspirational image
20:34 < seanph> hehe, yeah I have a lot of experience with graphics and OpenGL
20:34 < seanph> would be fun to do
20:34 < seanph> especially on the phone in realtime O.o
20:34 < kanzure> i think that's called "webgl" these days :(
20:34 < nmz787> so is the hardware pretty standard then?
20:34 < nmz787> i.e. nothing to innovate on here?
20:35 < seanph> 'eh, I probably wouldn't use webgl for this. native C++
20:35 < nmz787> just BOM cost reduction and opennes?
20:35 < seanph> @nmz787 I think using the ftdi is innovative, in the sense that there are fast enough ones at a reasonable price these days
20:35 < nmz787> well they
20:35 < seanph> @nmz787 but yeah, it's basically commodification of an old school ultrasound design
20:35 < seanph> @nmz787 taking advantage of modern components, computing power on the phone
20:37 < nmz787> it is funny and interesting to hear that an FTDI chip is considered innovative, but I believe it :) (especially in this biomed imaging stuff, which is always sold as super expensive to 'us')
20:38 -!- seanph [~seanph@61.152.234.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:38 -!- seanph [~seanph@174.139.4.194] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:38 -!- Darius_ [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:38 < nmz787> but then again, it was pretty innovative when I first learned they could be used as a logic analyzer too http://www.ebay.com/itm/24MHz-8CH-USB-Logic-Analyzer-8-Channel-Logic-Analyzer-Compatible-to-Saleae-/171202927182
20:40 < fenn> what's in the box?
20:40 < nmz787> FTDI
20:40 < nmz787> see this slide https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UGdLO5VJuHQRMvgvawBwe7E5R5H7_XczCERFo2DVMIk/edit#slide=id.g1084b242f_036
20:40 < nmz787> err, maybe a cypress chip actually
20:41 < nmz787> but it is essentially the same function
20:41 < nmz787> its a USB to serial converter, where each bit of the byte is tied to a GPIO input
20:42 < fenn> i'm seeing numbers like 50kHz to 500kHz for the FT232, now 24MHz
20:42 < fenn> not*
20:42 < nmz787> so effectively you can just connect digital signals to the GPIO and parse the bit field on the PC side
20:42 -!- seanph_ [~seanph@61.152.234.215] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:43 < nmz787> isn't that just USB or USB 2 bandwidth?
20:43 < nmz787> i mean transfer rate
20:43 < seanph_> @nmz787 8 euro, nice
20:44 < nmz787> or clock or something
20:44 -!- seanph [~seanph@174.139.4.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:44 < nmz787> fenn: https://sigrok.org/wiki/Fx2lafw
20:45 < nmz787> fenn: the FT232H can do a bunch of modes though
20:45 < nmz787> i think one is parallel in
20:45 < nmz787> so effectively the same thing is possible
20:46 -!- seanph_ [~seanph@61.152.234.215] has quit [Client Quit]
20:46 -!- seanph [~seanph@61.152.234.215] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:47 < fenn> well i never actually needed a logic analyzer so i guess i'll stick to poking at RTL-USB tv tuners
20:47 < seanph> sorry for popping in and out, having vpn issues (China)
20:47 -!- seanph [~seanph@61.152.234.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:48 -!- seanph [~seanph@184.83.5.178] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:51 < seanph> so yeah, we will hang out in the channel at least while we're working on the project
20:51 < seanph> will be logging out now since we were up all night playing with superconductors, and badly need sleep
20:51 < fenn> g'night
20:51 < kanzure> seeya. we can setup a vps for you to have stable irc.
20:51 < seanph> thanks for your input everyone. the microstepping thing in particular seems like it will simplify things and make it better
20:52 < seanph> @kanzure no worries, I'll sort that out. I actually have one that I'm not using
21:00 < kanzure> night
21:00  * kanzure sleeps
21:02 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cjdsjeuxtbprihaz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
21:03 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@185.66.252.96] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:08 -!- seanph [~seanph@184.83.5.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
21:56 -!- Ivan_ [b4969d15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.180.150.157.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:43 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:52 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:01 -!- nildicit_ [~nildicit@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nildicit] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
23:02 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:06 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-178-000-182-226.178.000.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:20 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-178-000-182-226.178.000.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
23:22 < fenn> .title https://youtu.be/VIRCybGgHts
23:22 < yoleaux> Stanford Seminar - Geoffrey Hinton of Google & University of Toronto - YouTube
23:22 < fenn> "Can the brain do back-propagation?"
23:42 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
23:48 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Tue Jun 14 00:00:29 2016