--- Log opened Wed Jun 15 00:00:30 2016
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05:44 < kanzure> deqfdsadadfafwq
05:46 < mz_o__> yes
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09:45 < fenn> getting chinese spam with subject "Fabrication of 3D biocompatible biodegradable micro-scaffolds"
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09:52 < mz_o__> whats in the body?
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09:53 < kanzure> i have a strange collection of that sort of spam
09:55 < Regex_> kanzure: I read that as 'strange connection with'
09:55 < mz_o__> lol what makes it spam? Just bs?
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10:01 < kanzure> it's literally spam.
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10:04 < kanzure> rsa vs elliptic curve https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11910357
10:05 < kanzure> was from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11908990
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14:27 < jrayhawk> https://vimeo.com/64911927 "LiquidPison X Engine" inverse wankel engine
14:27 < jrayhawk> x engine is a really fucking stupid name for it, though
14:28 < jrayhawk> considering that's already occupied by opposed-double-v piston engines
14:28 < jrayhawk> er, "LiquidPiston"
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15:49 < docl> has anyone yet attempted to design a manufacturing system for space that's really small (say 1kg or less)?
15:50 < docl> I'm thinking it could rendezvous with a chunk of space junk, converting it into a larger propulsion system and power collector, then keep grabbing more and more chunks to bootstrap.
15:52 < kanzure> before you get a 1 kg system defined, i think you sohuld start with a much larger system
15:53 < kanzure> i'm not sure freitas finished his space automation manufacturing design stuff
15:53 < kanzure> such as re: set of required manufacturing processes and feasibility of that
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15:57 < docl> woah, small sats cost more to launch than I thought. http://www.spaceflightindustries.com/schedule-pricing/
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15:59 < kanzure> what do you consider small? aren't they all the size of buses?
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16:15 < maaku> docl_: there are groups working on cube sats to the moon and mars
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16:15 < maaku> if you could somehow design a cubesat lander (more like impactor) that would be an obvious opportunity
16:16 < maaku> kanzure: I'm not sure the freitas space automation stuff ever went further than the systems engineering report nasa did
16:16 < maaku> at least I can find no evidence other than that
16:16 < docl> well, I should probably take another look at dani eder's work https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Seed_Factories
16:17 < maaku> docl: I would start nearer to home. make a self-replicating machine shop that works with sand
16:17 < kanzure> more broadly, the characterization work needs to be done first
16:18 < kanzure> implementation can come later, lots of people can do it, if they know what things are required
16:18 < kanzure> no reason to just start making aimlessly long list of machines
16:18 < docl> he calls them seed factories because they start out more primitive and perform upgrades as they grow
16:18 < kanzure> it doesn't matter whta he calls them if he never figured out the details
16:19 < maaku> i had a friend from nasa, who stangely is a fisherman in san diego now, who was a hardware tinkerer and very interested in building a self-repairing sandcrawler that moves along the sahara pooping out roads and solar panels
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16:19 < kanzure> what is repairful about roads?
16:19 < maaku> kanzure: no that's just useful output. it repairs itself.
16:19 < docl> something that has to function on earth over a long period of time seems to have different design constraints than space
16:20 < maaku> docl: not really?
16:20 < kanzure> docl: sure; but so far, as far as i know, nobody has come up with an actual list of required/mandatory manufacturing processes.
16:20 < maaku> there's some material considerations, and vacuum vs atmosphere, but the challenges of space engineering are mostly mass limitations, who go away when you're considering ISRU self replication
16:21 < docl> maaku: gravity and vacuum vs atmosphere are the main things that come to mind.
16:22 < kanzure> with skdb one of our ideas was "somehow convince everyone to do hardware automation debian-style packages, and then look at the requirements/dependencies and try to do graph search to find cycles that seem to fully self-replicate" but there's lots of problems with getting to the point where you have enough data to begin doing those queries (the queries themselves are trivial to implement)
16:22 < maaku> those mostly just mean you have to do things differently, and/or think about things engineers stuck on our gravity well don't typically think about
16:22 < maaku> but don't pose any unsurmountable or even super challenging problems, once you're used to it
16:22 < maaku> bigger problems are how you test things meant for non-Earth gravity before launching..
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16:24 < kanzure> another way to do this is to list out the resources available to work from (moon rock and moon dust), then work backwards from there and find the minimum set of vitamin components required from earth launches
16:25 < maaku> another way is build the automated design tools that do that for you :P
16:26 < kanzure> yes if there was data available, sure.....
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16:30 < maaku> what more do you need beyond http://www.hbcpnetbase.com/ plus http://pds-geosciences.wustl.edu/missions/lro/ ?
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16:50 < kanzure> seems the first one requires a login
17:35 < docl> huh, I should have started the thought experiment with less mass. 1 gram costs $100 if 1kg is $100,000.
17:54 < xentrac> maaku: hmm, just sand?  That's an interesting idea — but I think you'll need more than just quartz sand
17:56 < xentrac> I mean you can fuse quartz and spin it into fiber in order to get things of high tensile strength, but you can't do that in quartz crucibles!
17:58 < xentrac> I suspect that you need at least two materials that "harden" in different ways in order to get to self-replication
17:59 < xentrac> such that each of them can survive and direct the hardening cycle of the other
18:00 < kanzure> also you can cheat by having lots of vitamin resources/parts
18:01 < xentrac> so, for example, you could use calcium sulfate plaster (as Freitas suggests), which hardens by recrystallizing when water is added, to make molds for a molten metal
18:02 < xentrac> and you can use the metal to make the equipment for roasting the calcium sulfate hemihydrate back into anhydrous calcium sulfate, which can be done at a lower temperature than needed to melt the metal, but takes longer
18:07 < xentrac> but there are lots of candidate material pairs you could possibly use for that kind of thing, and lots of different hardening processes
18:09 < xentrac> cross-linking, treatment with acids and alkalis, carbonation of portland cement, dehydration (e.g. of sodium silicate), polymerization, and so on
18:11 < xentrac> I wish I could do a query on matweb for something like [solubility [in water] [tempC < 50] [gramsPerLiter > 100]] [meltingPoint tempC > 800]
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18:13 < xentrac> a really simple, if expensive, self-replication cycle is the one used historically in machining: tempered steel cuts untempered steel to the desired shape, with sufficient care about not overheating the workpiece, and then you temper the workpiece
18:19 < xentrac> but of course tempering the workpiece involves a furnace, which involves refractory firebrick, which you can't make with steel; you need a kiln, made out of that same or similar firebrick
18:22 < xentrac> a big problem for moon usage is that there's very little hydrogen available, although you might be able to recycle it
18:23 < xentrac> and hydrogen oxide is the standard plasticizer for firebrick before sintering
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20:29 < xentrac> A thing I've been wondering lately, actually, inspired by Marshall Brain's _Manna_: volcanoes successfully blow basalt and andesite into foam called scoria; basalt and andesite are mostly just quartz and plagioclase feldspar.  can we do this artificially?
20:29 < xentrac> I've seen videos of basalt casting for statuary, and the temperatures don't look that outrageous
20:32 < xentrac> and actually felsic lavas like those that form scoria are typically around 700°, which is a totally manageable temperature; even table salt can withstand that (although I don't know if you could actually make lava-melting crucibles out of it, since I suspect it would dissolve)
20:34 < xentrac> presumably to get significant amounts of gas dissolved in your lava, you need a pressure vessel, and this seems like it could be dangerous
20:35 < xentrac> I mean I don't know how much pressure you need, but when the terrafoam comes out, it's gonna spatter
20:36 < xentrac> scoria (or the less dense terrafoam known as pumice) has a lot of potential advantages as a construction material, if you can make it cheap enough
20:39 < xentrac> you get the usual high strength-to-weight ratio of foams, along with the better heat resistance of stone, and the ability to use dirt-cheap raw material
20:42 < xentrac> http://www.google.com/patents/US4933306 suggests that up to the 1980s anyway artificial pumice was made by blowing concrete or ceramics with blowing agents, suggests using waste glass instead, and suggests a variety of "cellulating agents" to produce blowing gases when heated
20:45 < xentrac> one of which is calcium carbonate, which seems likely to be a part of nearly any Earth-based seed factory — it's a necessary ingredient for portland cement, it's a refractory superior to firebrick for many purposes, it converts water-soluble sodium silicate into conventional soda-lime glass, and calcined by itself, it's an adhesive, a CO₂ scrubber, and a white paint
20:47 < xentrac> on the moon, things are very different; carbonates and quartz are completely absent
20:51 < xentrac> Google offers to sell me a book about the geological prospects of lunar mining on Google Play for $2248.48
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20:53 < Regex_> xentrac: but will you buy it?
21:09 < xentrac> not today
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22:12 < maaku> xentrac: anything in a book is out of date
22:13 < maaku> docl: $/kg to LEO/GEO/lunar-insertion/etc. is misleading. In reality you pay by the rocket, and those have fixed costs and fixed payload capacity.
22:14 < xentrac> maaku: what just changed?
22:14 < maaku> unless you piggyback essentially for free. one of the most interesting ways to do this is to hitch a ride on a GEO injection stage
22:14 < xentrac> cubesat launchers don't pay by the rocket; they pay by the cubsat
22:14 < maaku> xentrac: LRO, LCROSS, Chang
22:15 < xentrac> .wik lunar lro
22:15 < yoleaux> xentrac: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed.
22:15 < maaku> http://lunar.gsfc.nasa.gov/
22:15 < xentrac> Chang'e?
22:15 < maaku> yeah
22:16 < maaku> xentrac: right, cubesats are essentially free since they use up excess space
22:16 < maaku> of course they'll stil charge you, but an affordable price
22:17 < maaku> the GEO injection stage is interesting because by international treaty anything you put up in space (including spent boosters) you must clean up to prevent space junk
22:18 < maaku> so these 3rd stage booster rockets deliver the satelite to its designated orbit in GEO, *and then re-light to escape Earth's gravity into a heliocentric orbit* (since that qualifies as safe, and is cheaper than getting the thing back to the atmosphere)
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22:19 < maaku> that's the same delta-v you need to get to the moon, interset a NEO, or (if you are very patient) get on the slowest route to Mars
22:20 < maaku> so you could probably get <100kg to the moon or a NEO for negligible real added cost
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22:22 < maaku> .title http://www.lunar-cubes.com/
22:22 < yoleaux> Lunar Cubes | A Lunar Initiative
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--- Log closed Thu Jun 16 00:00:31 2016