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06:55 < CaptHindsight> http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-07-chinese-team-human-crispr-trial.html
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07:57 < kanzure> rj0ridkf43328rfh0dsa
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08:54 < Josh|NH4H> Hi everyone
08:54 < kanzure> greetings
08:55 < Josh|NH4H> I've been thinking about skyhooks lately
08:55 < kanzure> how goes the dyson sphere deployment plans?
08:55 < Josh|NH4H> I've never been much into dyson spheres
08:55 < Josh|NH4H> They seem a bit like overkill
08:55 < kanzure> dyson swarms?
08:56 < kanzure> anyway do you mean tethers?
08:57 < Josh|NH4H> Well, sort of
08:57 < Josh|NH4H> I'm thinking wheels
08:57 < Josh|NH4H> Rotating in orbit so that the bottom has a substantially reduce speed relative to the bulk velocity of the structure as a whole
08:57 < Josh|NH4H> (A spinning wheel is more stable than a spinning tether)
08:57 < kanzure> http://tethers.com/Bibliography.html
08:58 < kanzure> http://tethers.com/MXTethers.html
08:58 < kanzure> re: rotating and momentum exchange tethers, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPx1Nq80jm8
08:58 < kanzure> probably around the 2m 45sec mark
08:59 < Josh|NH4H> I've been thinking about them more from a theoretical standpoint than a practical one tbh
09:00 < Josh|NH4H> Think about the space elevator
09:00 < Josh|NH4H> People talk about CNTs like they're the be-all, end-all of space elevator technology, but really they're just the beginning
09:01 < Josh|NH4H> And as a matter of fact a space elevator is probably more useful as a HVDC power conduit for space-based solar panels than it is for transferring actual cargo
09:02 < kanzure> keith henson has been spending most of his time on wireless power transmission from solar power satellites
09:02 < Josh|NH4H> Wireless power transmission has huge losses though, doesn't it?
09:02 < Josh|NH4H> Not to mention targetting problems
09:03 < Josh|NH4H> s\targetting\targeting
09:05 < kanzure> "Beamed Energy Bootstrapping" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEkZkINrJaA
09:05 < Josh|NH4H> Can't watch right now
09:05 < Josh|NH4H> I'm at work unfortunately
09:06 < Josh|NH4H> One of the cool things about what that website called a rotovator but I call a hypersonic skyhook is that you can have 1G settlements located in the skyhook
09:09 < kanzure> 17:19 < fenn> so much hype about space elevators, and yet nobody even knows what a rotovator is
09:10 < Josh|NH4H> I would argue a rotovator is just as good as a space elevator if you expect to have as much mass going down as up
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09:14 < kanzure> Josh|NH4H: anyway your argument is that it's probably easier to transmit power than cargo, so different material requirements?
09:15 < Josh|NH4H> Not easier necessarily as 36000 km of wiring will be extraordinarily heavy
09:16 < Josh|NH4H> More worthwhile
09:16 < Josh|NH4H> The entire space economy is chump change compared to energy
09:17 < Josh|NH4H> And in orbit you can do a lot better in terms of power per square meter than anywhere on Earth
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10:07 < maaku> space solar power requires getting tons of solar panels into orbit though
10:07 < maaku> any kind of in-space commerce is replicating
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10:08 < Josh|NH4H> Agree the panels should probably be made from in-space materials
10:09 < Josh|NH4H> otoh if you have a space elevator they might not be so expensive to send up
10:13 < maaku> if you have $MAGIC
10:17 < xentrac> Josh|NH4H: I feel like solar power satellites are almost a post-Type-1 thing
10:17 < xentrac> they make sense once they enable you to capture energy you would have lost
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10:18 < xentrac> or, potentially, if it becomes easier to fabricate panels on orbit than in the Atacama
10:18 < Josh|NH4H> xentrac, that's not true per se
10:19 < xentrac> maybe for political reasons, say
10:19 < Josh|NH4H> Being on a rotating sphere reduces mean insolation by 2pi relative to a panel in empty space
10:19 < Josh|NH4H> It has the possibility to substantially reduce the money you spend on solar generation equipment
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10:20 < xentrac> but satellites on orbit are also on a rotating sphere
10:21 < xentrac> and I think you mean 4, not 2π
10:21 < xentrac> in the sense that 4πr²/(πr²) = 4
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10:23 < xentrac> what you actually lose in density by capturing energy from terrestrial heliostats instead of orbital ones is the atmospheric attenuation, which is about 30%
10:24 < xentrac> solar constant above atmosphere ≈1.3kW/m²; down here it's under 1
10:27 < xentrac> but self-replicating solar panel factories displacing delicate desert ecosystems are viable a lot sooner than panels in orbit
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10:37 < maaku> #MakeNewMexicoGreatAgain
10:39 < Josh|NH4H> Xentrac, no I mean 2pi
10:39 < Josh|NH4H> Because an object on the surface of the Earth has to rotate with it.  An object in GEO will have a direct line to the sun virtually all the time, and can turn to point directly at it without blocking other panels in the array
10:42 < Josh|NH4H> Xentrac, you're right when you're a type 1+ civilization, but right now capital costs matter more than available energy
10:45 < Josh|NH4H> Atmospheric attenuation pushes the factor from ~6.3 to ~8
10:47 < maaku> Josh|NH4H: a simple motor rotates the solar panel..
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10:52 < Josh|NH4H> maaku, sure, but in an array on Earth with multiple solar panels you're going to get shadowing if you have more than one panel
10:52 < Josh|NH4H> And nighttime still exists
10:55 < Josh|NH4H> [lunchtime brb]
11:25 < FourFire> Josh|NH4H, with current technology, that is carbon nanotubes, space elevator is infeasible at present
11:44 < Aurelius_Work2> launch loop!
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11:49 < chris_99> CaptHindsight, you know you mentioned you use industrial robot arms with LinuxCNC, does that handle the inverse-kinematics for you
11:54 < kanzure> it does kinematics
11:54 < chris_99> ah cool
11:55 < chris_99> am i right in thinking the difficulty with robot arms, is that theres so many DoF, meaning a lot of unknown variables, you need to work out, to reach the final X,Y,Z coords
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12:12 < Josh|NH4H> fourfire, I agree
12:12 < Josh|NH4H> CNT might not even be enough
12:13 < FourFire> launch loops are technologically possible right now, yes, but financially improbable within the next decade at least
12:13 < FourFire> I'd be for tiling the desert with low cost solar panels
12:13 < FourFire> first
12:13 < chris_99> are solar panels more efficient that using mirrors
12:13 < FourFire> or even nuclear power, in a place where it is politically feasible
12:13 < kanzure> large-scale project funding can be found but the pitch has to be pretty good.
12:13 < chris_99> and say salt
12:14 < FourFire> chris_99, or that, whatever
12:14 < chris_99> yeah, i'm just curious which is more efficient
12:14 < FourFire> using the suns energy to produce electricity in the most cost effctive way
12:16 < chris_99> Japan had an idea to use satalites
12:16 < chris_99> with solar panels iirc
12:16 < chris_99> to beam the power back via microwaves
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12:16 < FourFire> ok, nice idea, now how to pay for rocket launches
12:16 < chris_99> heh
12:17 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=3ae19684 Bryan Bishop: more polymerase notes >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/polymerase/notes/
12:17 < FourFire> they're "only" 70 Million each these days, but that's still way, way more expensive than making a solar power plant in a desert twice the size
12:18 < chris_99> i hope they 'solve' fusion soon
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12:26 < kanzure> 12:16 <@Susume2> an antiparallel sheet with helixes on one side is pretty basic
12:26 < kanzure> 12:22 <@Susume2> we have a slightly reduced alphabet in the design puzzles, where cys and ala are outlawed, gly and pro can only be in loops, and there is a penalty for some aromatics
12:31 < kanzure> grr we need libraries of more predictable AAs instead of this stuff.
12:38 < kanzure> "Spherical nucleic acids" http://sites.northwestern.edu/muri/files/2013/04/Spherical-Nucleic-Acids.pdf
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12:58 < kanzure> .wik living polymerization
12:58 < yoleaux> "In polymer chemistry, living polymerization is a form of chain growth polymerization where the ability of a growing polymer chain to terminate has been removed. This can be accomplished in a variety of ways." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_polymerization
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13:27 < kanzure> "DNA rendering of polyhedral meshes at the nanoscale" http://www.hogberglab.net/media/publications/benson2015mc.pdf
13:29 < kanzure> autodesk plugin for dna origami stuff http://vhelix.net/
13:29 < kanzure> (autodesk maya plugin, rather)
13:38 < kanzure> at least something good can come from thingiverse now, since that translates polyhedral models to dna origami staples
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13:43 < eudoxia> lotsa people dead in Munich, thankfully eleitl is safe: https://www.reddit.com/user/eleitl
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14:16 < kanzure> dna origami is probably more predictable than protein folding
14:16 < kanzure> although i don't entirely understand the limits of dna origami predictability regarding dnazyme functionality
14:17 < kanzure> maybe if you throw in functional elements then the whole thing breaks down and doesn't assemble
14:26 < kanzure> "Voltage-dependent properties of DNA origami nanopores" http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nl404183t
14:26 < kanzure> "We show DNA origami nanopores that respond to high voltages by a change in conformation on glass nanocapillaries. Our DNA origami nanopores are voltage sensitive as two distinct states are found as a function of the applied voltage. We suggest that the origin of these states is a mechanical distortion of the DNA origami. A simple model predicts the voltage dependence of the structural change. We show that our responsive DNA origami ...
14:27 < kanzure> ... nanopores can be used to lower the frequency of DNA translocation by 1 order of magnitude."
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14:38 < kanzure> "Reversible ligation of programmed DNA-gold nanoparticle assemblies" http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jacs.5b05683
14:38 < kanzure> "We demonstrate a new method to reversibly cross-link DNA-nanoparticle dimers, trimers, and tetramers using light as an external stimulus. A DNA interstrand photo-cross-linking reaction is possible via ligation of a cyano-vinyl carbazole nucleoside with an opposite thymine when irradiated at 365 nm. This reaction results in nanoparticle assemblies that are not susceptible to DNA dehybridization conditions. The chemical bond between the ...
14:38 < kanzure> ... two complementary DNA strands can be reversibly broken upon light irradiation at 312 nm. This is the first example of reversible ligation in DNA-nanoparticle assemblies using light and enables new developments in the field of programmed nanoparticle organization."
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15:17 < kanzure> "Single-step rapid assembly of DNA origami nanostructures for addressable nanoscale bioreactors" http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja3076692
15:19 < kanzure> that is a good idea. you can make polyhedral cylindrical chambers that are spatially addressable by dna. each one can be formed with some linkers or something before closing (to capture an enzyme or other structures).
15:19 < kanzure> and if you wanted to capture one of them on to a surface at a specific location, you could use surface-bound dna hybridization techniques.
15:20 < kanzure> with barcoding that could be useful. and absent barcoding it could still be useful for in vitro compartmentalization things.
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15:23 < kanzure> "Custom-shaped metal nanostructures based on DNA origami silhouettes" http://pubs.rsc.org/is/content/articlehtml/2015/nr/c5nr02300a
15:30 < kanzure> "synthesized and characterized a TSDzyme consisting of a single catalytic DNAzyme, hemin-G, grafted onto a DNA tetrahedral scaffold" from http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2016/sc/c5sc03705k
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16:51 < CaptHindsight> ... nanopores can be used to lower the frequency of DNA translocation by 1 order of magnitude." I wonder which nanopores they are referring to
16:51 < CaptHindsight> otherwise they should reduce the errors to 0
16:52 < kanzure> they are talking about a dna origami nanopore, made out of dna
16:54 < CaptHindsight> not a great nanopore for sequencing electrically
16:54 < kanzure> probably not
16:55 < CaptHindsight> there was a recent paper on adjusting the conductivity of DNA
16:55 < CaptHindsight> I forget which sequence had the highest conductivity
16:57 < CaptHindsight> http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nchem.2545.html
16:57 < CaptHindsight> http://phys.org/news/2016-06-scientists-tunable-dna-electronics-applications.html
16:58 < kanzure> "Here we show that guanine (G) runs in double-stranded DNA support delocalization over 4–5 guanine bases. The weak interaction between delocalized G blocks on opposite DNA strands is known to support partially coherent long-range charge transport. The molecular-resolution model developed here finds that the coherence among these G blocks follows an even–odd orbital-symmetry rule and predicts that weakening the interaction between G ...
16:58 < kanzure> ... blocks exaggerates the resistance oscillations. These findings indicate how sequence can be exploited to change the balance between coherent and incoherent transport. The predictions are tested and confirmed using break-junction experiments. Thus, tailored orbital symmetry and structural fluctuations may be used to produce coherent transport with a length scale of multiple nanometres in soft-matter assemblies, a length scale ...
16:58 < kanzure> ... comparable to that of small proteins."
17:12 < kanzure> well anyway, i think dnazymes would be a good idea for a polymerase at some point, but for now it seems more expedient to modify some amino acids to be photoswitchable
17:12 < kanzure> well, ribozymes. but there's not as much rna origami.
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17:28 < docl> I'm partial to the idea of an orbital ring system. You'd have geologically stationary platforms held up by mass streams moving at superorbital velocity.
17:28 < docl> Requires precision physics, but no new materials
17:30 < docl> Relatively short tethers would then be used to get mass from earth surface above the atmosphere. From there, it's a matter of orbital burn with no atmospheric dynamics to worry about.
17:34 < docl> In the end you'd perhaps want something roughly circular, like Tesla's thought experiment. There would be a superorbital mass stream inside and a geo-stationary platform, which you could in principle walk around the earth on. But the minimal starting system could be a couple of satellites throwing pellets at each other.
17:38 < docl> The pellets could have built in micropropulsion features for course correction purposes. So being able to hit the other satellite's deflection apparatus precisely every time with ballistics isn't necessary. Also, they don't need to go at an extremely high velocity, if they cumulatively outmass the platform satellites by enough they could be going just a few percent above orbital velocity.
17:41 < docl> So you could start with 2 1-ton platform satellites with some electromagnetic deflection systems, then say 100 tons of pellets. Put them all in a low orbit to begin with, at opposite sides of the earth. Then start feeding the pellets on a superorbital trajectory until the platforms are stationary, and lower a tether from each of them.
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19:17 < midnightmagic> Does anyone know what "Aetheric Research Ltd" is or was? Something about memetic hazard writeups..?
19:20 < kanzure> this sounds like something steve would know about
19:22 < kanzure> midnightmagic: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://threekindsofcool.net/aetherltd/*
19:22 < kanzure> oh i see. they cite nick bostrom stuff. yeah steve is living with a nick bostrom coauthor.
19:23 < kanzure> http://on-memetics.blogspot.com/2013/10/memetic-hazard.html
19:28 < midnightmagic> Who's ..  oh, Steve is the Aetheric Research guy? Is it just rando science fiction stuff or is it grounded in some kind of science?
19:31 < kanzure> i doubt steve is related to any of that
19:31 < kanzure> it's just a person i am recommending to ask
19:31 < kanzure> there might be some grounding but it's the type that will get you stuck for years out of a sense of paralysis for not harming the world due to unforeseen consequences or something :P
19:32 < kanzure> or because you worry about time traveling consensus AIs that will punish you for previous atrocities they decide you have committed by your lack of appropriate levels of carefulness or something
19:33 < kanzure> (i'm not 100% versed on the eternal punishment in simulated hells thing re: AI, but whatever-- just be careful out there i guess)
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20:28 < kanzure> polymerase draft is 21941 words and 54 pages, need to cut it down i guess
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22:09 < kanzure> clearly i do not kow how to use pymol http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/polymerase-images/images.html
22:10 < yashgaroth> what you trying to do
22:13 < kanzure> just some images
22:13 < kanzure> apparently it will take a screenshot of the wrong window
22:13 < kanzure> and it seems to write the same image twice? why?
22:14 < yashgaroth> because open source is magic, or it's secretly emulating 3d view, hard to say
22:31 < kanzure> yashgaroth: take a look at the various draft updates and let me know
22:34 < yashgaroth> too late for that tonight, will plow through tomorrow
22:38 < kanzure> kk
22:47 < SloanOnLinux> docl: Tell me more about this suspending satelites in stationary positions
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23:32 < maaku> SloanOnLinux you just transfer momentum by magnetic breaking pellets.
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23:33 < maaku> See launch loop and other "active" / dynamic support structures
23:33 < SloanOnLinux> Are these in orbit or being shot up from the surface?
23:33 < maaku> From the surface.
23:34 < maaku> There's a loop of pellets being shot up, breaker in a loop, and falling back down
23:34 < maaku> *braked
23:34 < SloanOnLinux> Hmm
23:35 < SloanOnLinux> It would require energy from both ground and satellite
23:35 < maaku> The ground station is pushing the stream of pellets up with the same force as the weight of the structure, plus air resistance on the pellets
23:35 < maaku> Satellite structure can be passive.
23:36 < maaku> Breaking recovers energy, not spends it.
23:36 < maaku> It actually powers the satellite.
23:36 < SloanOnLinux> I was just about to say thhat
23:36 < SloanOnLinux> My mistake
23:37 < maaku> Problem is if something breaks.
23:37 < SloanOnLinux> Why do you call it braking?
23:38 < maaku> The launch loop has good failure modes -- it just slowly relaxes and moves back to the surface.
23:38 < maaku> The satellite in the other hand would fall.
23:38 < SloanOnLinux> Parachute
23:38 < SloanOnLinux> ?
23:38 < maaku> .wik magnetic braking
23:39 < yoleaux> "Magnetic braking is a theory explaining the loss of stellar angular momentum due to material getting captured by the stellar magnetic field and thrown out at great distance from the surface of the star. It plays an important role in the evolution of binary star systems." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_braking
23:39 < maaku> Huh I would have thought that to be a engineering page, not astrophysical
23:41 < SloanOnLinux> I hope that thrusters get smaller, just like computers have, through technological advancements
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--- Log closed Sat Jul 23 00:00:04 2016