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joined ##hplusroadmap 06:49 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:00 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:02 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:11 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:42 -!- zeysmo [hYmt4bgiz8@columba.uberspace.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:100e:c500:b1fe:a872:f503:f86a] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:100e:c500:b1fe:a872:f503:f86a] has quit [Changing host] 07:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:48 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:50 -!- ArturSha1 [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:51 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:55 < kanzure> "The discrete logarithm problem over prime fields can be transformed to a linear multivariable Chinese remainder theorem" https://arxiv.org/abs/1608.07032 07:55 < kanzure> "We show that the classical discrete logarithm problem over prime fields can be reduced to that of solving a system of linear modular equations." 08:00 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:09 -!- kenn123 [~kenn123@CPEf0f2490c77c3-CMf0f2490c77c0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:52 -!- ArturSha1 [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:52 -!- Aurelius_Laptop [~cpopell@static-108-28-104-83.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:55 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:08 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:27 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:40 -!- augur [~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:9500:ffde:c4ac:1943] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:42 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:44 -!- augur [~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:9500:ffde:c4ac:1943] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:47 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:50 -!- ArturSha1 [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:52 -!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-phopivauwicszkkg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:00 < CaptHindsight> 80 million reasons why Lasergen doesn't sell their terminators to anyone but Agilent 10:01 < CaptHindsight> https://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing-technology/agilent-invests-80m-lasergen 10:02 < CaptHindsight> so you just have to make your own 10:03 < CaptHindsight> ChinaCo Cloudzapping Terminators 10:13 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:16 -!- Gurkenglas 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[~c0rw1n@223.100-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:39 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-094-223-128-173.094.223.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:46 -!- kenn123 [~kenn123@CPEf0f2490c77c3-CMf0f2490c77c0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: I Use Textual IRC on OS X] 10:47 -!- kenn123 [~kenn123@CPEf0f2490c77c3-CMf0f2490c77c0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:03 -!- kenn123 [~kenn123@CPEf0f2490c77c3-CMf0f2490c77c0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Away for too long: http://ibinary.com/libas] 11:22 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-188-129-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:29 -!- xmgx [~xmgx@189.5.227.175] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:37 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@103.49.155.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:39 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@103.49.155.114] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:45 < nmz787_> CaptHindsight: someone told me to check into cross-state-line laws about refusal to sell... not sure there are any laws 11:45 < nmz787_> CaptHindsight: I also thought of the company who got sued for not selling a 'gay cake'... maybe I could try buying some 'gay nucleotides' and make a fuss when they won't sell 11:47 < nmz787_> CaptHindsight: also, does agilent even make anything for synthesis? 11:49 < nmz787_> CaptHindsight: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/refusal-supply 11:49 < nmz787_> "A firm's refusal to deal with any other person or company is lawful so long as the refusal is not the product of an anticompetitive agreement with other firms or part of a predatory or exclusionary strategy to acquire or maintain a monopoly. This principle was laid out by the Supreme Court more than 85 years ago:" 11:49 < nmz787_> idk, maybe that kind of pressure would work 11:52 < nmz787_> kanzure: know any texan business lawyers you could ping about this? 11:53 < CaptHindsight> nmz787_: http://www.genomics.agilent.com/article.jsp?pageId=2011&_requestid=99988 11:55 < maaku> Things can be de facto illegal cross state without being an explicit statute due to differences between state and federal law. 11:55 < kanzure> nmz787_: use lawdingo 11:55 < nmz787_> CaptHindsight: what about it? nothing new 11:56 < nmz787_> CaptHindsight: or are you saying that it could be anti-competitive behaviour? 11:56 < CaptHindsight> nmz787_: what they make 11:56 < maaku> E.g selling cannabis to medical distributors across state borders is illegal, 11:56 < nmz787_> since it is somewhat related to synthesis 11:56 < maaku> But within California or Colorado it would be fine 11:56 < CaptHindsight> don't how much they actually make in-house 12:00 < CaptHindsight> not sure who is actually going to get FDA approval in the next 20 years 12:01 < CaptHindsight> uhmericans will probably end up having to travel to Asia or Europe for any gene therapy 12:04 < nmz787_> have there been amazing strides recently that would warrant the FDA to change? 12:04 < CaptHindsight> probably cheaper to give the formulations to someone in China than hire a lawyer 12:09 < CaptHindsight> http://www.sbsbio.com/news/englishnew/index.php 12:09 < nmz787_> formulations of what though, last I knew CRISPR isn't ready for mass-use 12:11 < nmz787_> emailed 12:46 -!- Jawmare [~Jawmare@unaffiliated/jawmare] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47 < juri_> we have a CRISPR kit at our space. 12:47 -!- augur [~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:41fd:b316:5e14:f569] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:56 -!- streety [~streety@jonathanstreet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:59 -!- streety [streety@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:ded6] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:04 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:34 -!- esmerelda [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:47 < nmz787_> hmm, Kivy seems pretty simple so far for Android development... and supports openCV and C code (somehow, supposedly) 13:47 < kanzure> you can also run regular old python if you install python or run debian in a chroot on android 13:48 < nmz787_> debian in chroot doesn't work as expected, lots of issues with core kernel calls or something 13:49 < nmz787_> not sure regular python (at least qPython) can run openCV extensions or have build system to handle C code (not sure Kivy has this either, but it is downloading the NDK now) 13:49 < chris_99> does it create an apk with the python interpreter bundled then? 13:49 < nmz787_> i feel like not 13:49 < nmz787_> i don't honestly know 13:49 < nmz787_> but my guess is it interprets and converts it somehow 13:50 < chris_99> ah hmm 13:50 < nmz787_> but I could be totally off 13:50 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:50 < nmz787_> maybe it packages the interpreter, and then compiles bindings to native calls 13:50 < chris_99> does anyone know anything more responsive that Matplotlib for Python per chance, it seems ridiculously slow when i try to open the graph full screen (around 1.4mil points) 13:50 < nmz787_> annnnd I'm out of space on this drive :/ 13:51 < nmz787_> yeah matplotlib isn't too great for performance or actually as nice as matlab's plotting 13:51 < nmz787_> I use pyqt, opencv, or wxpython for drawing stuff 13:52 < chris_99> ah hmm, i was looking for a simple graphing api, but can't seem to find any alternatives really 13:52 < nmz787_> ugh, how did this space thing happen, I swear I just cleared a bunch of space a few days ago 13:52 < nmz787_> android SDKs must be to blame 13:53 < nmz787_> chris_99: gnuPlot is decent 13:53 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:53 < nmz787_> chris_99: you could also save to image, then display that fullscreen with a better program 13:53 < chris_99> does gnuplot let you zoom into parts of a graph, it's been a while since i've used it 13:53 < nmz787_> nah gnuPlot is command line and generates images 13:54 < nmz787_> pyqt might be of interest if you want interactive, it is supposed to be pretty fast... but it is a pain to work with 13:54 < nmz787_> wxPython has MANY more examples 13:54 < chris_99> i'm actually trying to compare multiple graphs visually, which is harder that it should be heh 13:54 < nmz787_> I prefer wxPython for GUI stuff 13:54 < nmz787_> wxPython is pretty darn fast 13:54 < chris_99> okey pokey, i'll look into that, maybe they even having a graphing component 13:55 < nmz787_> strange they only seem to release the demo pack for windows... but realistically most of the demos should be cross-platform so I think your big challenge will just be unpacking this http://downloads.sourceforge.net/wxpython/wxPython3.0-win32-docs-demos-3.0.2.0.exe 13:55 < nmz787_> chris_99: what kind of graphs? 13:56 < nmz787_> chris_99: http://www.blog.pythonlibrary.org/2010/09/27/wxpython-pyplot-graphs-with-python/ 13:56 < chris_99> they're graphs from my scope from a uCurrent, for power analysis 13:56 < nmz787_> mouse vs python has lots of great walkthroughs too 13:56 < nmz787_> ah, cool 13:57 < chris_99> "Now we’re going to look at how to create a point plot with 25,000 plots! This one is also from the demo. Here’s the code:" well this looks promising :) 13:57 < nmz787_> yeah if this is all you need, no need for the demo pack 13:57 < chris_99> mm thats all i need really 14:00 < nmz787_> I believe I did some zooming work using that plotting method 14:11 -!- Orpheon [~Orpheon@48.188.62.81.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:34 -!- Regex_ [~Cara@2601:1c0:8501:d159:303d:be0:55d2:e9c6] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:36 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:37 < justanotheruser> http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459 14:38 -!- Regex__ [~Cara@2601:1c0:8501:d159:303d:be0:55d2:e9c6] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:40 -!- zeysmo [X8YP9LsiVp@columba.uberspace.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:41 < kanzure> .title 14:41 < yoleaux> Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials | The BMJ 14:44 -!- zeysmo [X8YP9LsiVp@columba.uberspace.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:49 -!- abetusk [~abe@68.175.143.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:02 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-101-180-249-107.lnse3.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:02 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-101-180-249-107.lnse3.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 15:02 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:15 -!- Jawmare [~Jawmare@unaffiliated/jawmare] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:21 -!- Forrest [a2e8908e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.232.144.142] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:24 < Forrest> Hey, what's the most disruptive tech project someone with access to these tools should take on? https://wiki.rit.edu/display/smfl/Tool+Set 15:25 < Forrest> Asking for a friend. 15:26 < Forrest> This someone has a biomedical degree and has worked developing powered exoskeletons. 15:26 -!- Cory [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:26 -!- TMA [tma@twin.jikos.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:27 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:28 -!- TMA [tma@twin.jikos.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:29 -!- Pasha [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:33 -!- Regex_ [~Cara@2601:1c0:8501:d159:303d:be0:55d2:e9c6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:34 -!- Regex_ [~Cara@2601:1c0:8501:d159:303d:be0:55d2:e9c6] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:35 -!- Pasha is now known as Cory 15:43 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:43 < kanzure> Forrest: probably dna synthesis 15:43 < kanzure> or, microfluidics for virus manufacturing 15:47 < Forrest> he's interested in biosensing, I know that much 15:47 < kanzure> aptamer stuff would also be a reasonable project for lithography stuff 15:47 < kanzure> for instance, SELEX on a chip to make aptasensors 15:50 < nmz787_> Forrest: I used the SMFL at RIT 15:50 < nmz787_> Forrest: tell them to talk to Dr Lamkin-Kennard 15:50 < nmz787_> at least 15:50 < Forrest> Oh cool, thanks. 15:51 < nmz787_> Forrest: also https://people.rit.edu/lffeee/ 15:51 < nmz787_> and maybe https://people.rit.edu/deeemc/ 15:52 < nmz787_> also for sure Dr Robert Kremens 15:52 < nmz787_> and potentially Jon Schull 15:54 < nmz787_> Forrest: I don't remember the name, but I think there was someone working on MEMS mass-spectrometers there too 15:55 < Forrest> oh that's wild 15:55 < Forrest> I remember getting excited when I found out about the mems vacuum pumps evacuating 1mm on a side areas 15:55 < Forrest> I figured it'd mean gas analysis in cell phones and such 15:56 < Forrest> small fast and low power 15:56 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vzmmpdqitefesuru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57 < CaptHindsight> a small chemical synthesizer that fits into a cell phone would be nice 15:58 < CaptHindsight> along with an analyzer one could capture and playback the odors along with pictures 15:58 < CaptHindsight> images just don't capture the experience of being in some places 16:02 -!- wrldpcmbl [sid145438@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ohuhpvgxdbnfjsal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:03 < Forrest> plus portable geosync gas analysis would be hot stuff 16:03 < Forrest> new kinds of weather 16:03 < Forrest> early warning if the atmosphere is not so nice where you're at 16:03 < Forrest> tracking people by perfumes.. 16:04 < Forrest> shazam for molecules! 16:05 < kanzure> nmz787_: Forrest also has an interest in radio proteis 16:05 < kanzure> ... radio proteins. 16:05 < nmz787_> Forrest: http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/biological%20radio%20research/ 16:05 < nmz787_> FWIW 16:05 < nmz787_> lots of crazy possible misinformation in therer 16:06 < Forrest> oh snap 16:06 < nmz787_> or maybe I limited that stuff and didn't upload it 16:06 < nmz787_> It's been a while 16:06 < Forrest> yeah, copying from conversation earlier 16:07 < Forrest> did I ever tell you about that map-k pathway theory with the cell phones? This was years ago, Jacob Schiach and I were looking for clues to identify potential RF controlled proteins and there were all these papers from back when the news was saying cell phones gave you brain cancer mostly bad bad science, but there was a lot of pressure and funding for that stuff so there's a ton of it one paper in particular indicated mapk 16:07 < nmz787_> I would start with homing pigeon quantum spin stuff, and electric eels, as well as all the photosensors, and pit viper sensor 16:07 < kanzure> Forrest: cutoff at "one paper in particular indicated mapk" message trucated 16:07 < kanzure> .. truncated.. 16:07 < Forrest> I'd have to go digging for it but jacob had the idea to use yeast 2-hybrid stuff to test and figure out which of the dozen likely proteins in the pathway were pairing off under radio stress it never got so far as testing, and tbh gluing half a GFP on the end of a protein would probably alter its radio response We got wrapped up in CSQ not long after, and the biolab didn't survive the next tx/rx move 16:08 < Forrest> from a message in google chat with kanzure about a minute ago 16:08 < nmz787_> Forrest: my thoughts on this last few years is to just model your proteins as antennas somehow, and use analog RF toolsets that exist 16:08 < nmz787_> for antenna design 16:09 < kanzure> probably that giant muscle spring protein would be a good place to start 16:09 < nmz787_> it would probably give you a shape or something, and then you'd have to figure out how to build the framework to position atoms of certain impedance or something at the required locations 16:09 < Forrest> there's some really interesting non-bio radio stuff 16:09 < nmz787_> s/atoms/aminos/ 16:09 < Forrest> plasma antennas are a favorite that nobody is talking about, outside of a company or two 16:10 < Forrest> particularly when applied to ~70ghz radio 16:10 < kanzure> Forrest: gene_hacker wants to do microfluidic radio stuff. liquid metals, etc. 16:11 < Forrest> https://www.google.com/patents/US7109124 16:11 < kanzure> .title 16:11 < Forrest> so, solid state plasma antennas 16:11 < yoleaux> Patent US7109124 - Solid state plasma antenna - Google Patents 16:11 < Forrest> live reconfigurable arrays 16:12 < Forrest> can trigger different points to make a radiator and a moving reflector, do steerable pencil beams, etc 16:12 < Forrest> if I were going to do it ultra-ghetto I'd use a VFD 16:13 < Forrest> but the solid state stuff is sexy, and has a lot of potential in cell phones for high bandwidth ultra directional stuff 16:13 < Forrest> that and radar 16:14 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:100e:c500:54e:6967:7dc0:cbfc] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:14 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:100e:c500:54e:6967:7dc0:cbfc] has quit [Changing host] 16:14 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:14 < Forrest> could actually do phased array style high speed radar, but without the pulse forming arrays 16:17 < Forrest> Plasma Antennas Ltd has produced and sent these things off for verification, they're cool and they work 16:17 < Forrest> but that company doesn't say shit about applying them, or selling them, etc 16:17 < nmz787_> chris_99: I see compilationg of python stuff happening 16:17 < Forrest> they don't respond to emails from gmail addresses or something 16:18 < chris_99> nmz787_, oh interesting, with that android thing you mean? 16:18 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25 -!- wrldpcmbl [sid145438@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gyzwaxytjirmfwlf] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:29 -!- Forrest [a2e8908e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.232.144.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:30 -!- Orpheon [~Orpheon@48.188.62.81.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gwhpjetiqopbwula] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:35 -!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-094-223-128-173.094.223.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:36 < nmz787_> well the kivy accelerometer demo worked pretty easily 16:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:100e:c500:71a4:d9b8:ccfb:117] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:100e:c500:71a4:d9b8:ccfb:117] has quit [Changing host] 16:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:08 -!- night [~Adifex@unaffiliated/adifex] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:10 -!- abetusk [~abe@68.175.143.22] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:20 -!- oleo_ [~oleo@x4e301177.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:24 -!- oleo [~oleo@unaffiliated/oleo] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:25 -!- kenn123 [~kenn123@CPEf0f2490c77c3-CMf0f2490c77c0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:31 -!- kenn123 [~kenn123@CPEf0f2490c77c3-CMf0f2490c77c0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Away for too long: http://ibinary.com/libas] 17:35 < kanzure> http://book.bionumbers.org/how-many-chromosome-replications-occur-per-generation/ 17:37 < kanzure> "Should the number of divisions have implications for the occurrence of cancer, which has mutations and replication at its essence? Different types of cancers are known to have very different lifetime risks that span several orders of magnitude. Recently, the number of stem cells and their division rates are becoming available. In a recent study (C. Tomasetti & B. Vogelstein, Nature, 347:78, 2015), researchers collected the number of ... 17:37 < kanzure> ... total stem cell divisions in a lifetime for 31 tissue types and correlated it to the lifetime risk of cancer occurring in that tissue. The correlation was found to be striking at about 0.8. This high correlation leaves only a much smaller fraction to be explained by environmental factors or genetic predispositions, though these have been at the center of research for decades." 17:39 < kanzure> bunch of weird comments on this page: "Cancer etiology. Variation in cancer risk among tissues can be explained by the number of stem cell divisions" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25554788 17:41 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4] 17:42 < kanzure> "A linear correlation equal to 0.804 suggests that 65% (39% to 81%; 95% CI) of the differences in cancer risk among different tissues can be explained by the total number of stem cell divisions in those tissues. Thus, the stochastic effects of DNA replication appear to be the major contributor to cancer in humans." 17:42 < kanzure> "Thus, the authors have a parameter that quantifies the "randomness" of cancer. By definition this parameter must be between 0% and 100%. The authors are 95% confident that it lies between 39% and 81%. 17:42 < kanzure> " 17:45 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:53 < kanzure> not sure whether to stop saying "your cells replicate your genome all day long"; at minimum it looks like the production of pre-erythrocytes is 2 million/second in humans. 17:57 < kanzure> "A human being's body experiences about 10 quadrillion cell divisions in a lifetime.[6]" 17:57 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gwhpjetiqopbwula] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:59 < kanzure> 10 million/second cellular replacement rate... but how many of those are nucleated? if 2 million/second are nucleated pre-erythrocytes (which i am not willing to count, because it's unclear whether those nucleated pre-erythrocytes are actually constructing unique genomes), then i guess it would be okay to say roughly 8 million genomes/sec. 18:10 -!- wrldpcmbl [sid145438@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gyzwaxytjirmfwlf] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:20 < maaku> Well it's at least true of men in a certain way... 18:22 < maaku> Seems like response to RF is something you can select for in a test tube doing random, mutated RNA replication and expression 18:23 < maaku> Btw kanzure have you looked at getting programmability by modifying the active end of a ribosome? 18:24 < maaku> You wouldn't even need RNA, just disable the catalysts for 19 amino acids when you want the 20th.. 18:24 -!- zeysmo [OjRP5fF4b8@columba.uberspace.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:27 -!- wrldpcmbl [sid145438@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rbcusuapogmonyoz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:28 < kanzure> maaku: in fact yes, https://groups.google.com/d/msg/enzymaticsynthesis/3YEEv0OULo0/zJZPETWDbMIJ 18:53 < maaku> .title http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=36248 18:53 < yoleaux> An Interesting SETI Candidate in Hercules 18:53 < maaku> Not quite a wow signal 19:02 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@103.49.155.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@103.49.155.114] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:15 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:22 < gene_hacker> liquid metal radio eh? 19:23 < gene_hacker> seen some papers about that 19:23 < gene_hacker> makes it easy to make reconfigurable antennas 19:57 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:02 -!- night [~Adifex@unaffiliated/adifex] has quit [Quit: Just going out for a swim...] 20:15 -!- abetusk [~abe@68.175.143.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:18 -!- Orpheon [~Orpheon@48.188.62.81.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:20 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Quit: time to haxor] 20:22 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:38 -!- abetusk [~abe@68.175.143.22] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:55 -!- drewbot_ [~cinch@ec2-107-22-13-18.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:00 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=391f9abe Bryan Bishop: add blog post link >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/niac-2016/reconstituting-asteroids-into-mechnical-automata/ 21:01 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-196-81-17.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:03 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Quit: Malvolio] 21:05 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:22 -!- ArturSha1 [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:25 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:33 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rkbgrxusonkumhau] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 21:57 < gene_hacker> was it software that made that transcript? 21:58 < kanzure> maaku and i are working on software to make transcripts, but that particular transcript was typed by me 21:59 < kanzure> also there was this one from the other day, http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/seti-megastructures-jason-wright-2016/ 21:59 < gene_hacker> honestly, the talk was pretty bad 22:00 < gene_hacker> the part that was cut off was one of the guys in charge of NIAC essentially telling them that 22:00 < kanzure> i would have liked to hear more about mechanical automation things they are doing 22:00 < gene_hacker> well here's the thing, they don't seem to have much of a plan 22:00 < kanzure> iirc their company is focused on preprocessing stl files for transmission to the space station 22:01 < gene_hacker> they have some printers up there 22:01 < gene_hacker> they also have this: http://www.madeinspace.us/projects/archinaut/ 22:01 -!- oleo_ [~oleo@x4e301177.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:01 < gene_hacker> you can also buy 'space ready' filament 22:02 < gene_hacker> from them 22:02 < kanzure> you mean resin? 22:02 < gene_hacker> no filament 22:02 < gene_hacker> stereolithography needs gravity to work 22:03 < gene_hacker> FDM has no such restriction 22:04 < gene_hacker> details are sparse on their mechanical automaton thing, but I am doubtful it will work 22:04 < gene_hacker> it is unlikely they will be able to make it all mechanical 22:04 < kanzure> my expectation is that if they do make anything at all, it's going to be mostly something with lots of vitamin parts that were manufactured on earth or in near-earth orbit, like pre-fabbed microchips 22:05 < gene_hacker> the reason being is that in order to navigate they need to figure out what their attitude is, for that you need a star tracker 22:05 < kanzure> navigation is only required if you goof up with your original calculations :) 22:06 < gene_hacker> you could make a mechanical startracker, you'd just need an optical aperture larger than any telescope that has ever been made 22:06 < gene_hacker> no you still need a way to get attitude 22:06 < kanzure> if you slap chips and antennae on those objects, i think you would just transmit the course corrections to the asteroids themselves 22:06 < xentrac> presumably the filament is made of resin, no, gene_hacker? 22:07 < kanzure> "self-replication" is the problem with their plan, not the idea of installing tech on to asteroids 22:07 < gene_hacker> nope, it's just regular thermoplastic 22:07 < xentrac> regular thermoplastics are mostly resins 22:07 < xentrac> unless you count things like soda-lime glass as "regular thermoplastics" 22:07 < xentrac> I feel like self-replication is pretty close 22:07 < gene_hacker> resin implies thermoset 22:08 < xentrac> .g thermoplastic resin 22:08 < yoleaux> xentrac: Sorry, that command (.g) crashed. 22:08 < xentrac> .wik thermoplastic resin 22:08 < yoleaux> xentrac: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed. 22:08 < kanzure> i would expect to see earth-first mechanical self-replication long before i see seedcraft intercepting asteroids and doing kinematic self-replication stuff in space 22:08 < xentrac> .title https://www.google.com.ar/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwje0bPW7eXOAhVJlpAKHb9hDFQQFghYMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomposite.about.com%2Fod%2Faboutcompositesplastics%2Fa%2FThermoplastic-Vs-Thermoset-Resins.htm&usg=AFQjCNHKW3bn9pCfhGPACGJHZlLe_JbKtw 22:08 < yoleaux> xentrac: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. 22:09 < xentrac> https://polycomp.mse.iastate.edu/files/2012/01/9-Thermoplastic-Resin.pdf 22:09 < kanzure> anyway; lots and lots of vitamin parts, is my expectation. in fact, it's probably cheaper to just ship out lots of vitamins in giant bundles to deliver to whatever location you are going to next, rather than bundling them all together on the same madeinspace "seedcraft". 22:09 < gene_hacker> yeah transmitting course corrections could work if you can sense orientation remotely 22:09 < kanzure> mirrors 22:09 < gene_hacker> yeah it is 22:10 < gene_hacker> it is amazing how many microcontrollers you can get in a kilogram 22:10 < gene_hacker> other than that, there are asteroids with high native germanium content 22:10 < gene_hacker> there are even some with native silicon! 22:11 < xentrac> it's amazing what you can find on places that aren't crawling with photosynthetic organisms 22:12 < kanzure> i think that for large scale self-replication in space, biology might be a good choice if we improve our biology lab tools faster than we figure out mechanical self-replication details 22:12 < kanzure> e.g. select for organisms that can grow in vacums 22:12 < gene_hacker> where do you get the volatiles 22:12 < kanzure> *vacuums 22:13 < xentrac> I suspect that MEMS flexures along the lines of Merkle's reversible buckling-spring thought experiment may turn out to be practical as more than a thought experiment? 22:13 < gene_hacker> carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen 22:13 < kanzure> for organisms? you send food/vitamins. 22:13 < gene_hacker> look if you really want to do mechanical computation, use fluidics 22:13 < gene_hacker> you're gonna need a lot of vitamins then 22:14 < xentrac> fluidics are appealing but I think flexures actually have most of their advantages 22:15 < xentrac> and scale down better 22:15 < xentrac> I mean we'll see 22:15 < gene_hacker> for macroscale stuff, fluidics win in terms of speed 22:15 < xentrac> yeah, for sure 22:15 < xentrac> but we're talking about 1kHz there 22:16 < xentrac> you probably know more about microfluidics than i do though 22:16 < xentrac> so maybe I'm mistaken in my impression that the scaling laws for viscous losses are outrageously horrible for microfludics speed 22:16 < gene_hacker> fluidics works at audio frequencies 22:16 < gene_hacker> at the macroscale 22:16 < xentrac> yeah 22:17 < xentrac> sliding-contact machinery can work at ultrasound frequencies at the macroscale, barely 22:17 < gene_hacker> same with fluidics 22:17 < xentrac> flexures are, I think, considerably faster there 22:18 < gene_hacker> mass 22:18 < gene_hacker> I don't think I've ever heard of sliding contact machinery working at ultrasonic frequencies 22:19 < xentrac> well, if you count air bearings, there are high-speed drills that reach 150krpm 22:19 < xentrac> that's 16kHz 22:20 < gene_hacker> but those don't compute or amplify information 22:20 < xentrac> agreed 22:20 < gene_hacker> fluidic oscillators have been demonstrated operating at high than that 22:21 < xentrac> yeah 22:21 < xentrac> what are the scaling laws for fluidic logic like? 22:22 < gene_hacker> bad 22:22 < xentrac> I mean aside from questions of signal propagation speeds, which you can deal with by pipelining, don't fluidic circuits get to outrageous power densities if you try to run them fast at the microscale? 22:23 < gene_hacker> yes, at some point to get the same reynolds number, flow must become supersonic 22:23 < xentrac> oh, I wasn't even thinking of that. ouch. 22:23 < xentrac> is that really true? 22:23 < gene_hacker> are you trying to do the feynman route to nanotech? 22:23 < gene_hacker> yes 22:24 < xentrac> (you could naïvely say that sound propagates a lot faster through UHMWPE or carbon fiber than through water or especially air, but I don't think signal propagation speed is as important as losses) 22:24 < gene_hacker> so that's the other thing 22:24 < gene_hacker> at high frequencies, you get more loss 22:25 < xentrac> yeah, and generally that's true of flexures as well as fluidics 22:26 < xentrac> I think flexures have lower absolute losses, but I don't yet have the depth of knowledge to say that with certainty 22:27 < xentrac> and I think their scaling laws are very favorable, even if their energy consumption is always going to be orders of magnitude worse than electronics 22:27 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28 < gene_hacker> well the whole reason merkle suggested flexures was to get reversible computation 22:28 < xentrac> barring practical reversible classical computation, which I think we can probably bar 22:28 < xentrac> yeah, I know 22:28 < xentrac> but he was reduced to hand-waving about operating the thing at arbitrarily low frequencies 22:28 < gene_hacker> which is supposed to be more efficient 22:28 < gene_hacker> the whole thing was handwaving 22:29 < xentrac> instead of showing calculations for the strain-rate-dependent viscoelastic behavior of some real material 22:29 < xentrac> kind of, yeah 22:29 < gene_hacker> no, I'm more worried about how you actually compute with it 22:29 < xentrac> oh, I think that's actually pretty easy to solve 22:30 < xentrac> I mean his McCulloch-Pitts majority buckling springs sound super feasible 22:31 < gene_hacker> so how do you get data out? 22:32 < kanzure> audio, color, pick your poison 22:35 < gene_hacker> for merkle's buckling springs, you have to load and unload everything in a strange manner for each compute cycle 22:35 < gene_hacker> that being said, I don't think the feynman path is practical 22:36 < kanzure> p. sure that biology is going to be the solution for a long time 22:36 < kanzure> as much as it sucks, it's what we've gots for molecular nanotech 22:37 < xentrac> the sequential loading and unloading of clocked logic like buckling springs is just for reversibility; you can kind of discard it if you don't care 22:38 < xentrac> I mean it's not really very different from clocking a register in everyday synchronous sequential logic design 22:38 < xentrac> it's just that all your logic elements are now clocked 22:39 -!- xmgx [~xmgx@189.5.227.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40 < gene_hacker> well the thing is synthetic chemistry is getting pretty amazing 22:40 < xentrac> yeah 22:42 < xentrac> I don't know much about chemistry 22:43 < xentrac> I do think flexures are actually a reasonable approach to the feynman route to nanotech, but I suspect that route might peter out well before the atomic scale 22:44 < xentrac> but that's okay! I just want self-replication 22:44 < xentrac> if I can cut soda-lime glass with submicron precision and then surface-harden it with a molten potassium chloride bath or some shit like that, I'll be happy as a clam 22:46 < xentrac> glass is appealing because it doesn't have grain boundaries to add spatial noise to your structure 22:46 -!- wrldpc1 [~ben@bai1b7fb29d.bai.ne.jp] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:47 < gene_hacker> There will always be noise 22:47 < xentrac> yeah, but it doesn't have to manifest in the form of multi-micron surface asperities 22:48 < gene_hacker> and how would using glass prevent that? 22:48 < xentrac> ask the grating lab 22:48 < gene_hacker> why do you need submicron precision? 22:48 < xentrac> for submicron machinery 22:49 < gene_hacker> so how do you assemble that? 22:49 < xentrac> also for submicron data encoding 22:49 < xentrac> with larger flexures 22:49 < xentrac> I mean the grating lab uses screw threads 22:49 < gene_hacker> for all intents and purposes no one does micron scale assembly 22:50 < xentrac> nope 22:50 < xentrac> they use screw threads but one of their ruling engines was actually physically built by Michelson 22:51 < gene_hacker> ??? 22:51 < xentrac> anyway, I have a long way to go and a lot to learn before I have to worry about those questions 22:52 < xentrac> but even macroscopic flexures improve on sliding-contact machinery by orders of magnitude along several different axes: frequency, wear, backlash, efficiency 22:53 < gene_hacker> I'll buy that 22:53 < xentrac> and I think their relative advantages probably become bigger as you go to the microscale 22:53 < gene_hacker> but assembly is hard at the microscale 22:53 < gene_hacker> heck, assembly is hard at the macroscale if you aren't using humans 22:53 < xentrac> what makes it hard? 22:53 < xentrac> I mean in particular at the microscale 22:53 < gene_hacker> manipulation 22:54 < xentrac> you mean getting the needle into the right cell? 22:58 < gene_hacker> picking up and moving stuff into the correct orientation 22:59 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2602:306:35fa:d500:f5e0:f867:a11d:8d52] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:01 < xentrac> do you mean orienting a grabber in six degrees of freedom with submicron precision, or the stuff around surface adhesion and galling and things like that? 23:02 < gene_hacker> both of those things 23:04 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:100e:c500:71a4:d9b8:ccfb:117] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:04 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@2001:8003:100e:c500:71a4:d9b8:ccfb:117] has quit [Changing host] 23:04 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:05 < xentrac> have you seen willard wigan's ted talk? 23:05 < gene_hacker> no 23:06 -!- Orpheon [~Orpheon@48.188.62.81.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:10 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:11 < maaku> kanzure: I spent a long time (most of my youth) facinated with mechanical self-replication in space. Then I realized orbital dynamics for anywhere interesting (asteroid belt, outer solar system) means decades of travel time and technology is exponentially accelerating... 23:14 < maaku> xentrac: huh, I hadn't thought about glass as a substrate for sub-micron scale mechanics. interesting 23:14 < maaku> friction's got to be a bitch at that scale though 23:16 < xentrac> flexures avoid having to deal with any friction; their losses are from viscoelasticity and hysteresis 23:16 < xentrac> which I think are fairly minimal in common glasses, but even if that's true of macroscopic glasses, it might not be true of submicron glass "fibers" 23:17 < xentrac> willard wigan does micron-precision shaping and assembly of sculptures with hand tools under a microscope 23:18 < xentrac> I don't think he's done working machinery, although he's done models of motorcycles; the most recent one is encased inside one of his beard hairs which he bored a tube through 23:19 < gene_hacker> humans are great at assembling stuff 23:19 < gene_hacker> robots are not 23:19 < gene_hacker> when they do, they need everything in exactly the right place 23:20 < xentrac> maaku: I think Dawn reached Vesta in 2011 after being launched in 2007? 23:21 < xentrac> it reached Ceres last year 23:23 < xentrac> glasses kind of suck at having large elongation at break, which would be a very helpful feature for flexures 23:24 < gene_hacker> I would say amorphous metal, but that probably has the same disadvantage 23:25 < xentrac> yeah, maybe there is some glass that doesn't have that disadvantage. it should be pretty easy to get a sample of Metglas and break it 23:25 < xentrac> I think one came with my jeans 23:26 < gene_hacker> jeans with metal glass? 23:26 < xentrac> yeah, this is one of the most bizarre things about the modern world 23:26 < gene_hacker> link? 23:27 < gene_hacker> kids these days with their bulk metallic glass jeans 23:27 < xentrac> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_article_surveillance#Electro-magnetic_systems 23:28 < gene_hacker> oh wow 23:28 < gene_hacker> that's a new one 23:28 < gene_hacker> or maybe not that new 23:29 < xentrac> but bizarre, right? 23:29 < gene_hacker> since they seem to have been replaced.... 23:29 < xentrac> sometimes Argentina is behind the times 23:29 < xentrac> I lost the tag though! 23:30 < xentrac> it turns out Metglas is also being used as a core material in high-power-density generators and transformers nowadays 23:30 < xentrac> beating out rare-earth-based materials 23:30 < gene_hacker> well I'll tell you what is bizzare is that we don't use RFID, because criminals figured out they could put everything in a bag coating in tin foil and just walk out the door 23:31 < xentrac> that sounds entirely unsurprising really 23:41 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jmjforsuzskisdhv] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:43 -!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:46 -!- ArturSha1 [~ArturShai@185.66.253.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:53 -!- abetusk [~abe@68.175.143.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] --- Log closed Mon Aug 29 00:00:39 2016