--- Log opened Tue Sep 13 00:00:53 2016
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00:37 < archels_> grm, so it turns out the circuit I invented has been US patented since 2009
00:37 < archels_> > /dev/null
00:58 < nsh> what circuit?
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01:00 < archels_> current source
01:00 < archels_> more precisely, a differential voltage-controlled current source
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02:10 < archels_> "the signal is summarized with the input signal"
02:10 < archels_> (summed)
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07:10 < kanzure> hm.
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07:17 < kanzure> http://superkuhbitj6tul.onion/
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09:44 < superkuh> Yeah?
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09:46 < juri_> yeah!
09:46 < superkuh> Been getting posted on reddit a bit the last week for no reason I can understand.
09:48 < superkuh> It's a bit frustrating that people don't seem to understand that .onion is just another (better) domain name system and does not imply some dark purpose or attempt to hide.
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10:13 < kanzure> it was posted to cypherpunks for some reason.
10:13 < kanzure> you were listed right before a "watch people die" site. congrats.
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12:06 < ybit> http://bmcbioinformatics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2105-15-S7-S9
12:06 < ybit> .title
12:06 < yoleaux> Proteomics, lipidomics, metabolomics: a mass spectrometry tutorial from a computer scientist's point of view | BMC Bioinformatics | Full Text
12:07 < ybit> it'd be nice to be involved in a local hackerspace, but for $700/yr, i could probably build all the tools i'd ever need in a year for that cost
12:07 < ybit> .title https://vimeo.com/180908160
12:07 < yoleaux> The Evolution of Bacteria on a "Mega-Plate" Petri Dish on Vimeo
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12:24 < fenn> "You cannot visit superkuhbitj6tul.onion.tor2web.org right now because the website uses HSTS. Network errors and attacks are usually temporary, so this page will probably work later."
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12:26 < fenn> i guess it just doesn't work through tor2web
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12:26 < fenn> tor2web.fi works
12:27 < kanzure> use superkuh.com instead
12:27 < fenn> oops no tor2web.fi just serves some generic page
12:27 < kanzure> onion.to does things sometimes
12:28 < fenn> oh
12:30 < fenn> abetusk: did you ever figure out a command line for svg to gcode?
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12:35 < kanzure> re: better domain name system; there was a post from a few facebook developers that mentioned they were able to throw enough spare cpu cycles at scallion to get name collisions for the shortened pubkeys or whatever. so while it's better than a central registry, tor folks do need to eventually take their own proposals seriously https://gitweb.torproject.org/torspec.git/tree/proposals/224-rend-spec-ng.txt
12:36 < kanzure> err maybe i mean this link instead https://gitweb.torproject.org/torspec.git/tree/proposals/ideas/xxx-onion-nyms.txt
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12:41 < fenn> i wonder how these long hashes always end up being crackable within a few years. it's not like the people designing the hash format don't know about progress in computers
12:42 < kanzure> review is hard
12:42 < kanzure> even trivial problems often escape review
12:42 < kanzure> onion addresses do not seem particularly long to me
12:44 < fenn> long enough to be annoying but not long enough
12:44 < kanzure> i think you would like this one (recently typed) https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/safecurves-choosing-safe-curves-for-elliptic-curve-cryptography-2014/
12:44 < fenn> i read something about that on djb's blog
12:45 < fenn> about rigidity
12:45 < kanzure> ah okay.
12:46 < kanzure> i recently proposed an attempt to get more heavily documented evidence of cryptosystem review. like with signatures from the reviewers.. stuff like that.
12:47 < fenn> what's in it for them? besides public shaming when the cryptosystem breaks
12:47 < kanzure> otherwise it's just a "yep this is totes reviewed dude" promise and it's hard to figure out what's going on
12:48 < kanzure> i guess there's reputation? also i suppose they should also allow for revocation at any time. so reputation for timely revocation or something. i don't know.
12:48 < kanzure> there's very little offered to reviewers, except endless harassment. so..... yeah.
12:50 < kanzure> another interesting one is the inverse-- publishing a signed review when things are definitely known to be broken.
12:50 < kanzure> but unfortunately you also get attacked for that too :)
12:50 < fenn> meh that one seems doable
12:51 < fenn> provably insecure is easier than provably secure
12:51 < fenn> there are a lot of hashes that are not quite broken yet but the writing is on the wall
12:52 < superkuh> I know I'm only seeing "figures in clouds" but the tendencies for good shares being found in clusters in time when cryptocurrency mining sure does feel non-random.
12:54 < kanzure> p2pool has suffered from that perceptual problem for a long time. you're observing "variance".
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12:56 < kanzure> i had an (insecure) proposal for how to make mining more continuous output for users (more regular share finding even for low-gpu low-cpu mining users) but unfortunatey it requires an element of trust. however, people seem to respond very positively to the psychology of mining and finding shares.
12:57 < kanzure> (it requires an element of trust because the payouts are fractional satoshi BTC. which are not secured by the network. so... trust stuff has to happen. but it might be compatible with a network of lightning channels between mutually trusting websites for users to spend their fractional satoshis at).
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12:59 < kanzure> based on the psychological value of cryptocurrency mining that some users seem to obtain from that activity, i would argue that this creates a price floor on that user's time and the coin value. and exploration of that price is hindered by lack of sub-satoshi BTC amounts in the protocol.
13:00 < kanzure> if someone is spending $50 to mine 0.0001 BTC then presumably they should sell it only for roughly $50 etc...
13:00 < fenn> isn't this already satisfied with mining pools and fractional hashes counting as contribution to the pool
13:01 < abetusk> fenn, pstoedit -> ngc , ngc -> gcode
13:01 < kanzure> those pools have a minimum withdrawal amount that is v. high
13:01 < fenn> abetusk: how do you go from svg to ps?
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13:04 < kanzure> you could make a trust-required protocol for sub-satoshi BTC amounts but then you have a bunch of users using something that isn't supported by the bitcoin protocol. so what's the point?
13:05 < kanzure> it would be like making a separate ecosystem that is slightly incompatible with everything else. oops.
13:06 < abetusk> fenn, inkscape
13:06 < fenn> oh right it works as a CLI too
13:06 < abetusk> maybe there's a cli tool to do it but I just did the thing that was expedient
13:06 < abetusk> ah, cool, there you go
13:06 < fenn> inkscape -P
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13:07 < abetusk> There's actually a plugin for inkscape to convert to gcode but bit rot set in and now it doesn't work with my install of Ubuntu 16.04
13:10 < fenn> kanzure why not just a mining pool with lightning payout?
13:12 < kanzure> lightning payouts are bitcoin transactions, they can't secure sub-satoshi amounts
13:12 < gradstudentbot> Blah, I'm going to quit.
13:15 < kanzure> i guess you could do something like: in the event of fraud, someone gets a massive amount of BTC (>= 1 satoshi)... /me checks a thing
13:15 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Lightning%20Network%20as%20Directed%20Graph%20Single-Funded%20Channel%20Topology%20-%20Tadge%20Dryja%20-%202016-04-11.pdf
13:15 < kanzure> (see page 14 etc)
13:17 < kanzure> so in the event of channel closure, you want the transaction to be settled to the blockchain-- therefore it must be a transaction that conforms to the expectations of the protocol
13:17 < fenn> are you saying 1 satoshi is "very high" minimum withdrawal?
13:17 < kanzure> the pools have a minimum withdrawal way higher than that
13:17 < kanzure> and yes, even 1 satoshi would be pretty high-- your cpu miner is not going to mine 1 satoshi any time soon
13:18 < fenn> well i dont see the point of cpu mining
13:18 < fenn> it's not worth the electricity
13:18 < kanzure> people get a psychological value from that
13:18 < kanzure> they seem to find it worth their entertainment and amusement at least
13:18 < abetusk> fenn, a brain dead way of evaluating the ngc that comes out of pstoedit: https://github.com/abetusk/abes_cnc_utilities/blob/release/conversion/ngc-eval.py
13:18 < fenn> tell them they're mining bitcoin but do something useful with the CPU instead
13:18 < ybit> retiring @heathmatlock and going with @nanotopy for anyone cares
13:18 < ybit> anyone +who cares
13:18 < kanzure> what's wrong with heath
13:19 < kanzure> bah
13:19 < ybit> @heath is already taken on twitter and plus everyone tweets about the heath airport
13:19 < kanzure> fenn: and where would the money come from? with cpu mining at least there's some once-in-a-milion-year event that pays out.
13:20 < kanzure> *million
13:21 < fenn> you'd pay them with bitcoins you got from other methods, like selling things or asic mining
13:21 < superkuh> CPU miners should probably be doing monero or some other cryptoknight algorithm.
13:21 < kanzure> specifically my proposal was regarding the psychological value that people seem to derive from bitcoin mining itsef
13:21 < kanzure> *itself
13:21 < kanzure> (or, er, mining in general)
13:22 < gradstudentbot> I could never be a PI.
13:23 < fenn> yeah that was the impetus behind SETI@home
13:23 < fenn> and later BOINC stuff
13:23 < fenn> i'd like to be able to just rent my computer spare cycles to the internet AWS-style, but i'm not aware of anything like that
13:24 < kanzure> ok so i think that, while the transaction from the lightning channel needs to bitcoin-protocol compatible, it should technically be possible that if there is a channel funded with, say, a few thousand satoshi BTC, that the transaction could be closed in favor of one party or the other with a lot of satoshi BTC, even if they are just individually passing small amounts of sub-satoshi BTC back and forth through the channel.
13:24 < kanzure> fenn: siacoin (from Taek in here) does something like that for data storage contracts
13:24 < fenn> didn't we "prove" data storage contracts don't work?
13:25 < fenn> or at least not be able to prove they could work
13:25 < kanzure> i think that was about proof-of-storage, which taek is not doing
13:25 < kanzure> or... something.
13:25 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2016/siacoin/
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13:30 < kanzure> i guess they are doing proof-of-storage.
13:33 < fenn> what was wrong again with providing differently-encrypted copies of the same file to different nodes, and doing a periodic challenge for a salted hash of the encrypted data (that you've already calculated and stored locally but not shared)
13:33 < fenn> they can't come up with a hash if they don't know the salt in advance
13:33 < fenn> unless they have the data
13:35 < kanzure> taek has a method based on hash trees where it's hard to store all possible challenge-responses ahead of time. or something.
13:35 < fenn> he just picks a random 64 byte segment of the file
13:36 < kanzure> i would have to review the "proof-of-storage can't work" claims to be able to say anything at all about this
13:36 < fenn> one of your objections was that one node could pretend to be multiple different locations each storing redundant copies, but in reality only one copy exists
13:37 < kanzure> that objection is more about redundancy proofs more than it is about storage
13:37 < fenn> but storinging different encrypted copies  of the same data gets around this somewhat (they still might be in one location but at least they're storing redundant copies)
13:41 < Taek> fenn: hello :)
13:42 < fenn> hi taek
13:42 < Taek> <fenn> what was wrong again with providing differently-encrypted copies of the same file to different nodes, and doing a periodic challenge for a salted hash of the encrypted data (that you've already calculated and stored locally but not shared)
13:42 < Taek> things wrong with that
13:42 < Taek> well, first I'll say that it's cryptographically sound, so they aren't crypto issues
13:42 < Taek> but, it does require you to pre-hash the data with a bunch of different salts if you want to do multiple challenges
13:43 < Taek> and it also requires you to be online to issue the challenges
13:43 < fenn> yes
13:43 < Taek> the proof-of-storage method used by Sia requires neither of those things
13:44 < fenn> is proof of storage part of siacoin's block validation?
13:44 < Taek> no
13:44 < fenn> i don't really understand why there's a blockchain at all
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13:44 < Taek> well, proof-of-storage is not used in building consensus
13:44 < Taek> the blockchain is super useful!
13:44 < Taek> you have two people who don't trust eachother, the renter + the host
13:45 < Taek> the host wants to get paid if they store the data, regardless of what the renter does
13:45 < Taek> and the renter does not want the host to get paid unless the host stores the data for the agreed-upon time
13:46 < Taek> without a blockchain, either the renter needs to pay the host in advance, or the host has to accept that the renter could run away without making the payment
13:46 < Taek> *or you need some other form of escrow
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13:46 < Taek> the blockchain is basically doing algorithmic escrow
13:47 < Taek> let me know if that makes sense
13:47 < Taek> <fenn> he just picks a random 64 byte segment of the file
13:48 < Taek> the fact that it's random means your probability of success as a host directly corresponds with the percentage of the file that you are storing
13:48 < fenn> ok i see why an escrow is necessary
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13:50 < Taek> Sia has a collateral component where the host puts up extra money - if the host fails the storage proof, they lose the revenue from the renter as well as the collateral they put up themselves
13:50 < Taek> so, they have a strong negative expected value for storing only part of the file
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14:20 < kanzure> fenn vanished?
14:20 < kanzure> oh there he is
14:25 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12491639
14:25 < yoleaux> WADA Confirms Attack by Russian Cyber Espionage Group | Hacker News
14:25 < kanzure> https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2016-09/wada-confirms-attack-by-russian-cyber-espionage-group
14:25 < kanzure> (world anti-doping agency)
14:26 < kanzure> ahahaha "While it is an evolving situation, at present, we believe that access to ADAMS was obtained through spear phishing of email accounts; whereby, ADAMS passwords were obtained enabling access to ADAMS account information confined to the Rio 2016 Games. At present, we have no reason to believe that other ADAMS data has been compromised."
14:26 < kanzure> dude even i've fucking poked around adams
14:27 < kanzure> "This attack comes on the heels of the early August incident; whereby, Yuliya Stepanova’s password for ADAMS was illegally obtained, which allowed a perpetrator to access her account on ADAMS. Ms. Stepanova was the key whistleblower for WADA’s Independent Pound Commission that exposed widespread doping in Russian athletics. "
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14:28 < kanzure> j_security_check lolz
14:29 < kanzure> http://10.200.200.27/adams/manageUserAccount.do
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14:29 < kanzure> is this what all the fuss has been about?
14:32 < kanzure> they are using something caled presagia injuryzone so any vulnerabilities in injuryzone are applicable to wada-ama.org
14:33 < kanzure> also used by the "british horseracing authority" among other ridiculous organizations
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14:38 < kanzure> really impressive level of surveillance, though.
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14:39 < kanzure> but they paste passwords into powerpoint presentations. the whole anti-doping surveillance thing should be abandoned completely.
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16:43 < jrayhawk_> http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-up/ 'Corlett, Frith & Fletcher (2009) (henceforth CFF) expand on this idea and speculate on the biochemical substrates of each part of the process. They view perception as a "handshake" between top-down and bottom-up processing. Top-down models predict what we're going to see, bottom-up models perceive the real world, then they meet in the
16:43 < jrayhawk_>  middle and compare notes to calculate a prediction error. When the prediction error is low enough, it gets smoothed over into a consensus view of reality. When the prediction error is too high, it registers as salience/surprise, and we focus our attention on the stimulus involved to try to reconcile the models. If it turns out that bottom-up was right and top-down was wrong, then we adjust our pr
16:43 < jrayhawk_> iors (ie the models used by the top-down systems) and so learning occurs.'
16:43 < jrayhawk_> 'In their model, bottom-up sensory processing involves glutamate via the AMPA receptor, and top-down sensory processing involves glutamate via the NMDA receptor. Dopamine codes for prediction error, and seem to represent the level of certainty or the "confidence interval" of a given prediction or perception.'
16:43 < jrayhawk_> 'Consider increased AMPA signaling combined with decreased NMDA signaling. Bottom-up processing would become more powerful, unrestrained by top-down models. The world would seem to become "noisier", as sensory inputs took on a life of their own and failed to snap into existing categories. In extreme cases, the "handshake" between exuberant bottom-up processes and overly timid top-down processes wo
16:44 < jrayhawk_> uld fail completely, which would take the form of the sudden assignment of salience to a random stimulus.'
16:44 < gradstudentbot> Does anyone have some seaborgium for my collection?
16:46 < gradstudentbot> I really like him, but some of his work is really problematic.
16:47 < jrayhawk_> 'If dopamine represents a confidence interval, then increased dopaminergic signaling should mean narrowed confidence intervals and increased certainty. Perceptually, this would correspond to increased sensory acuity. More abstractly, it might increase "self-confidence" as usually described. Amphetamines, which act as dopamine agonists, do both. Amphetamine users report increased visual acuity (wei
16:47 < jrayhawk_> rdly, they also report blurred vision sometimes; I don't understand exactly what's going on here). They also create an elevated mood and grandiose delusions, making users more sure of themselves and making them feel like they can do anything.'
16:48 < kanzure> jrayhawk_: have you also looked at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4010745/
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17:00 < jrayhawk_> Not previously.
17:02 < jrayhawk_> They would have to demonstrate that animal cognitive performance doesn't intrinsically improve on task repitition, which seems... unlikely.
17:03 < jrayhawk_> performance and/or efficiency
17:04 < kanzure> what is the benefit of explaining perceptions? is there any particular problem with not explaining it?
17:04 < kanzure> well i guess my beef is with consciousness, not perception
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18:40 < kanzure> bloop
18:59 < kanzure> https://pardydba.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/take-my-1000-genome-please/
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19:02 < ybit> there's a lot of stuff on cheese that i have
19:02 < ybit> i might just spam ##note-to-self though
19:02 < ybit> juul: how is that coming btw?
19:03 < ybit> ze fiancee and i are super interested in helping out somehow
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19:10 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-L8qWpd_74
19:10 < yoleaux> VBA 1.8.0 & VBA-RR: Stack buffer overflow in XPC file parser results in code execution - YouTube
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19:55 < juul> ybit: it's been slow with the all-volunteer effort and the not quite 100% working lab
19:55 < juul> but electrical upgrades at counter culture labs began this weekend and plumbing upgrades will follow
19:56 < juul> and it looks likely we'll get a grant to hire someone full time for ~8 months to work exclusively on real vegan cheese
19:57 < ybit> great news!
19:57 < ybit> we are going to do our best to get involved
19:57 < ybit> juul: thanks for the update
19:58 < ybit> #random pics of baterophage: http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/lifesci/research/facilities/imaging/imagegallery/
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19:59 < ybit> site dedicated to bacteriophage http://phages.org/
20:00 < ybit> er, blog site rather
20:00 < gradstudentbot> I am sponsored by Genentech.
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22:54 < ybit> i somehow missed this
22:54 < ybit> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZILBbEQ6mI
22:54 < yoleaux> Congressman Bill Foster Introduces The National Fab Lab Network Act of 2013 - YouTube
22:54 < ybit> linked from http://www.3dprinterworld.com/article/congressman-bill-foster-introduces-national-fab-lab-network-act-2013
22:55 < ybit> .title https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/114/hr1622
22:55 < yoleaux> National Fab Lab Network Act of 2015 (H.R. 1622) - GovTrack.us
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